WEBVTT

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Welcome to Community & Code,

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the podcast about the human beings behind

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the commits.

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I'm here today with Christos Paloukas,

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who is in the WordPress community,

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works at Procedium.

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Tell me, actually, why don't you,

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I'll let you introduce yourself.

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What do you do and who are you

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and where in the world are you?

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I'm in Greece.

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I'm Christos, and I do work at Presidium.

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It's so much easier when the host does

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the introductions,

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but I love as a host myself for

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podcasts I do passing it off to the

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guest.

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So I've been in the IT space since,

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I don't know, since school, I guess,

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but like formally since twenty ten or

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twenty twelve.

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Twenty twelve.

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Twenty ten was an iconic year for me

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when I moved to Greece from Chicago,

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Illinois.

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Born and raised in Chicago, Burbank,

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Illinois, to be specific,

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a suburb just outside of Chicago.

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Born in Evergreen Park.

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This is the part where I talk about

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long walks on the beach and how I

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like them, right?

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Yeah.

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I'm a cat person.

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There's not very many beaches in Chicago,

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though, right?

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Well, there are.

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Are there?

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Yeah, well, very many.

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Does it count as one?

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Like, you know, like Lake Shore?

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There's a lake.

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There's not an ocean.

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It kind of smells funny.

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I don't know.

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Yeah, I wasn't a fan of the lake.

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We have a smelly lake here, too.

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Yeah, lakes are weird.

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Especially Chicago.

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Could you imagine how many corpses are in

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there from, like, the mafia days?

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Like, rolled up rugs getting tossed.

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Actually, go ahead.

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I was going to say,

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I'm in Salt Lake City,

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so we have obviously the Great Salt Lake,

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and that smells weird for completely

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different reasons.

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Not so much the mafia, though.

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Yeah, good point.

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Actually, when I was in school,

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fun random tangent,

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there was kind of a thing to... Okay,

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so, you know,

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people get shot in Chicago all the time.

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You kind of get desensitized to it for

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all the forced reasons.

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But it was a thing to,

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I don't know, have a shooting of sorts,

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burn the car,

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and have the car disposed of in the

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lake.

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Okay.

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I mean,

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there's so many layers of messed up with

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that.

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Yep, yeah.

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Indeed.

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Greece is much more peaceful.

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Greece has nice weather.

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Greece is nice.

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Got the islands.

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What took you to Greece?

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Oh,

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I just ended up coming to Greece so

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I can get some Cisco certifications to,

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like, I don't know,

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expand my knowledge in IT.

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And whether I did it in the States

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or whether I did it in Greece,

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it would have been the same kind of

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story.

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Everything would be in English,

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so it would have kind of worked for

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me.

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I do speak Greek.

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My Greek writing, it's not there.

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The military helped.

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There's conscription in Greece.

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So if you want citizenship,

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you have to go to the military as

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if you were born a male.

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And for nine months, it was for me,

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twelve months.

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Now, for some reason, it's even longer.

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And we keep spending money on,

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I don't know,

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like F-sixteens and our military as if

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we're ever going to actually go to war.

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But I was talking about the Greek and

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the English and the speaking.

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yes and going to greece uh to do

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cisco certification yeah i ended up doing

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all that i but i ended up finding

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her myself in a relationship that i was

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kind of committed to at the time and

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then i found work and work turned into

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the military and i don't know time passed

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and i'm still here and it's been over

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a decade it's been fifteen years that's

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impressive twenty five now yeah it's been

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fifteen years um how's that cisco

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certification working for you

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I was just talking about this today with

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one of my coworkers.

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He was talking about getting the CCNA and

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I told him that the best thing I

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ever did in my Cisco career was to

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stop taking those exams.

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It was the most relieving thing.

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It was, I think,

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two or three years ago when I had

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to take the CCNP security or something

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greater to continue having my Cisco

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certifications.

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And I never used them ever in my

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professional career.

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Sure, it's great.

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That's what I told them, too.

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You get good knowledge.

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You learn about how networks work.

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We were talking about the OSI model in

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comparison to the TCP IP model.

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I hate that like we still use terms

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like volumetric and OS and like layer four

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and layer three attacks for Presidium

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Edge.

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We were talking about this, how like,

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you know,

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L-three and L-four attacks are cut off at

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the edge.

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But I hate it.

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I can't stand it because the whole world

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works off the TCP IP stack, right?

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OSI is great for troubleshooting.

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You have to know it as an IT

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guy.

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But I mean,

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why do we still have to refer to

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things formally using the OSI stack?

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Hmm.

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There was a point in time when I

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was doing tech support where,

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and I was doing, well,

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so the long newer story is I used

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to do tech support for MSN when MSN

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was a thing.

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And when MSN was actually rivaling AOL to

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some extent, you know,

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as the thing that you click on to

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get internet, you know,

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like when that was a thing.

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Now everybody just has internet all the

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time.

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So I did that.

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And then I moved from MSN to basically

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the phone company that did DSL support.

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And a bunch of people that I knew

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had or were taking Cisco certification.

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And I considered it.

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for a minute um but like at the

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time uh we had so there was a

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point in time where before i joined uh

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the phone company um they had given people

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cisco modems and so our cisco routers

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actually and so it would have been

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marginally helpful like you actually would

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be working with some of the things that

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maybe you would be talking about because

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no one really cares about the networking

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stuff in like what are you doing dsl

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tech support like you're not you're you're

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not doing networking you're doing like the

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networking hitting the the router and but

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you're not doing any internal networking

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right yeah um so it would have been

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like kind of tangentially okay uh but we

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were also phasing that out um and rolling

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out this is when like sort of at

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the beginning of when phone companies were

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like

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like rebranding,

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like getting some vendor and rebranding

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the modem and putting their logo on it.

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And like, so it was,

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and there's a crappy robot modem that

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didn't let you do anything at all.

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And the Cisco let you do everything in

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the world.

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Yeah.

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Um, so I never did it.

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Um,

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And I never actually thought that anyone

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who did take it used any of that

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information.

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So you just confirmed that suspicion.

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I mean, it looks good, right?

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It looks good to have a little like

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CCNA, whatever badge.

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Well, I mean, maybe not so much anymore.

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It was more impressive like ten years ago.

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I thought it was too, right?

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So I had that cute little CCNA thing

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with a little,

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but then you learn at the end of

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the day that like, I don't know,

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there was this scandal,

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I guess it wasn't a scandal,

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but more of a realization where large

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companies like that,

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like Cisco specifically,

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I don't want to talk trash about Cisco

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podcast,

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but

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Uh, you,

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you figure out eventually that they get,

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make more of their,

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most of their money off their huge

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partnerships that they have like,

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you know, gold partner, silver partner,

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whatever of Cisco.

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And through training,

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I don't remember the percentage,

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but it was huge, like thirty, forty,

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fifty.

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Yeah.

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Fifty was probably too much,

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but they make it off training and training

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centers and certifications,

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which makes sense.

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Cuz one of my problems then was I

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paid for the CCNP security exam.

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And it was like three hundred and fifty,

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if I remember correctly, three hundred,

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three hundred and fifty euro.

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It's a lump sum to get certified in

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something you don't use.

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Plus, the other thing that bugged me is,

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I don't know,

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let's go back to the CCNA thing where

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I was talking to the coworker.

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Back then we would learn, you know,

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basic routing protocols and then EIGRP.

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No one uses EIGRP.

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But it's good to theoretically know that

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things exist, right?

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Yeah, not EIGRP,

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but it's good to know how to work.

00:08:30.531 --> 00:08:31.932
They should really focus on what they

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should have focused on.

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It's been so long now, like, you know,

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routing protocols or maybe even expand to

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things like BGP that's widely used.

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But no,

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you have to be a CCMP level or

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maybe even higher than for BGP to actually

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get into the curriculum.

00:08:47.252 --> 00:08:49.213
And for anyone who's listening who is not

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following the rapid-fire abbreviations,

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we will definitely move on from this part

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of the podcast.

00:08:57.219 --> 00:08:59.019
What do you do exactly at Proceedium?

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Your LinkedIn says you're a performance

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engineer.

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What does a performance engineer do?

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My LinkedIn is right.

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So performance engineers,

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we make shit faster.

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Okay, cool.

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How do you engineer speed?

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How do you engineer speed?

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You start from the ground up, I guess,

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by using high speed technologies or using

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like, if you want to go really technical,

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you'd start at the probably operating

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system level.

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If not, even if we have like any,

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I don't know,

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machine geeks or like actual hardware

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geeks in the house,

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they would probably argue it starts at the

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machine level, which does make sense too.

00:09:35.576 --> 00:09:37.758
NVMEs do play a role.

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They're significantly faster than the

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older SSDs,

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the solid state disks and spinning disks.

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They do die out much faster.

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But anyway,

00:09:46.705 --> 00:09:48.446
the role of a performance engineer,

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I guess,

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is relative to what they're focusing on.

00:09:51.908 --> 00:09:52.830
So at Presidium,

00:09:52.870 --> 00:09:54.350
we do managed WordPress hosting.

00:09:54.370 --> 00:09:55.731
So I focus on WordPress.

00:09:55.932 --> 00:09:57.393
So I focus on web technologies.

00:09:57.413 --> 00:09:58.333
It could be database.

00:09:59.875 --> 00:10:01.436
It could be the server itself,

00:10:01.775 --> 00:10:02.535
the web server,

00:10:03.096 --> 00:10:04.498
whether it's Nginx or Apache,

00:10:04.677 --> 00:10:06.698
optimizing the actual web server for the

00:10:06.759 --> 00:10:08.379
specific site in question,

00:10:08.660 --> 00:10:11.682
because WordPress is a beast with many

00:10:11.722 --> 00:10:12.102
faces.

00:10:13.802 --> 00:10:15.623
you can do pretty much everything on the

00:10:15.643 --> 00:10:17.404
WordPress and people do do pretty much

00:10:17.445 --> 00:10:18.445
everything on the WordPress,

00:10:18.765 --> 00:10:19.686
meaning that every time I get a

00:10:19.725 --> 00:10:20.506
performance audit,

00:10:20.547 --> 00:10:22.508
which is one of my responsibilities, it's,

00:10:22.928 --> 00:10:25.410
it's usually like everything from the

00:10:25.431 --> 00:10:27.052
beginning, uh,

00:10:27.072 --> 00:10:30.073
writing something like a SOP for audits,

00:10:30.134 --> 00:10:32.035
it would be very vague because then you

00:10:32.056 --> 00:10:33.456
have to find something and then rabbit

00:10:33.476 --> 00:10:33.657
hole.

00:10:33.956 --> 00:10:34.197
Sure.

00:10:34.216 --> 00:10:35.677
They're all like low hanging fruit.

00:10:35.738 --> 00:10:37.399
I don't know, slow queries, for example,

00:10:37.440 --> 00:10:39.400
that you kind of knock out really quick,

00:10:39.841 --> 00:10:40.682
but yeah,

00:10:40.902 --> 00:10:41.381
As a whole,

00:10:41.422 --> 00:10:43.822
without changing or potentially ruining

00:10:43.842 --> 00:10:44.403
the website,

00:10:45.364 --> 00:10:46.764
performance work is kind of hard.

00:10:47.303 --> 00:10:48.445
If you asked me,

00:10:48.485 --> 00:10:51.385
what are the most common things you or

00:10:51.405 --> 00:10:52.865
no, the most common I can answer.

00:10:52.946 --> 00:10:54.307
But if you ask me what are the

00:10:54.366 --> 00:10:55.267
best practices,

00:10:55.687 --> 00:10:57.248
I would tell you there's no such thing.

00:10:57.427 --> 00:10:59.347
I mean, it really depends on your website.

00:10:59.548 --> 00:11:01.609
Sure, there are again, like, I don't know,

00:11:01.629 --> 00:11:02.850
be careful with your images,

00:11:02.889 --> 00:11:04.190
be careful with how things load,

00:11:04.509 --> 00:11:06.331
be aware of what the critical

00:11:08.212 --> 00:11:11.076
or the critical rendering path is be

00:11:11.096 --> 00:11:12.197
careful with your CSS.

00:11:12.577 --> 00:11:15.240
But if you don't actually get your hands

00:11:15.280 --> 00:11:15.600
dirty,

00:11:17.043 --> 00:11:20.187
you're not going to be able to identify

00:11:20.246 --> 00:11:20.567
anything.

00:11:22.215 --> 00:11:23.275
Yeah,

00:11:23.336 --> 00:11:26.256
I think that's a really interesting take

00:11:26.397 --> 00:11:27.477
on performance.

00:11:27.538 --> 00:11:29.798
I think that's really grounded in reality.

00:11:29.859 --> 00:11:31.279
I think we both work at hosts.

00:11:31.340 --> 00:11:31.940
And obviously,

00:11:32.000 --> 00:11:35.282
hosts want to say that ours is the

00:11:35.322 --> 00:11:35.861
fastest.

00:11:35.922 --> 00:11:38.322
But how you define fast depends largely on

00:11:38.443 --> 00:11:40.865
what you're emphasizing.

00:11:41.504 --> 00:11:43.267
One of the things that Pantheon emphasizes

00:11:43.847 --> 00:11:45.770
is that everything should be in the

00:11:45.811 --> 00:11:47.152
caching layer, in the CDN,

00:11:47.251 --> 00:11:49.654
and we give everybody a CDN from the

00:11:49.695 --> 00:11:50.035
get-go,

00:11:50.056 --> 00:11:51.116
and that's a thing that we've done for

00:11:51.136 --> 00:11:51.857
a really long time.

00:11:52.238 --> 00:11:54.341
And so to really benefit from

00:11:55.321 --> 00:11:55.561
you know,

00:11:55.640 --> 00:11:57.883
the speed that Pantheon can give you,

00:11:57.903 --> 00:11:59.182
like, yes, obviously we have, like,

00:11:59.202 --> 00:12:01.085
containerization and we use Google Cloud

00:12:01.125 --> 00:12:02.826
and whatever and those things are, like,

00:12:03.086 --> 00:12:04.966
help things be fast, but, like,

00:12:05.427 --> 00:12:07.028
ideally you're never hitting the

00:12:07.067 --> 00:12:09.509
application server at all to make those

00:12:09.529 --> 00:12:10.610
database queries or whatever.

00:12:10.629 --> 00:12:12.652
You're just hitting a cached page in a

00:12:12.672 --> 00:12:14.613
CDN somewhere that stays there for,

00:12:14.812 --> 00:12:16.073
you know, an extended period of time.

00:12:16.793 --> 00:12:17.815
And then you don't need to worry how

00:12:17.875 --> 00:12:19.655
fast the machine is because the machine

00:12:20.096 --> 00:12:21.697
can be slow and it's only hopefully going

00:12:21.716 --> 00:12:22.758
to be serving, you know,

00:12:22.837 --> 00:12:24.458
a request to a single visitor who just,

00:12:24.619 --> 00:12:24.839
you know,

00:12:25.298 --> 00:12:26.059
gets the short straw.

00:12:26.080 --> 00:12:28.081
Yeah.

00:12:28.100 --> 00:12:28.240
Well,

00:12:28.321 --> 00:12:30.663
offloading things to see what's funny is

00:12:30.682 --> 00:12:31.803
that like in performance,

00:12:31.844 --> 00:12:33.625
lots of the solutions end up being the

00:12:33.644 --> 00:12:35.186
problem in some way, shape or form.

00:12:36.386 --> 00:12:38.107
You mentioned caching CDN,

00:12:38.168 --> 00:12:39.969
which basically is caching for,

00:12:40.269 --> 00:12:40.548
I don't know,

00:12:40.589 --> 00:12:44.692
static assets that can help you alleviate

00:12:44.711 --> 00:12:46.173
like what's going on on the actual server

00:12:46.212 --> 00:12:46.552
itself.

00:12:46.592 --> 00:12:48.335
But then other sorts of caching,

00:12:48.375 --> 00:12:50.576
maybe like full page caching on the edge,

00:12:50.615 --> 00:12:53.097
something like Presidium Edge does.

00:12:53.798 --> 00:12:54.479
It's relatively new.

00:12:54.538 --> 00:12:56.159
It's pretty cool with the static and

00:12:56.179 --> 00:12:57.341
dynamic caching on the edge.

00:12:57.500 --> 00:13:00.442
Only tells me that, okay, yeah,

00:13:00.523 --> 00:13:01.643
you can really,

00:13:01.702 --> 00:13:03.104
really benefit your site if you don't have

00:13:03.124 --> 00:13:07.047
like logged in user traffic or it's not

00:13:07.086 --> 00:13:09.567
an LMS kind of deal or it's a

00:13:09.587 --> 00:13:11.769
WooCommerce shop that's not necessarily

00:13:11.850 --> 00:13:12.350
built.

00:13:12.710 --> 00:13:12.889
Yep.

00:13:12.909 --> 00:13:14.410
Those are all the things that fall down.

00:13:14.572 --> 00:13:14.711
Yep.

00:13:15.518 --> 00:13:16.217
Yeah, exactly.

00:13:16.298 --> 00:13:17.178
I mean, with WooCommerce,

00:13:17.418 --> 00:13:18.399
you can always do that.

00:13:19.340 --> 00:13:20.321
I always forget what it's called.

00:13:20.400 --> 00:13:21.280
The adaptive caching.

00:13:21.341 --> 00:13:21.942
Not adaptive.

00:13:21.981 --> 00:13:23.883
What's the word for when you cache only

00:13:23.962 --> 00:13:25.043
certain parts of the page?

00:13:25.203 --> 00:13:26.303
Like caching fragments?

00:13:26.345 --> 00:13:26.664
No.

00:13:26.825 --> 00:13:28.466
Yeah, fragment caching.

00:13:28.546 --> 00:13:28.966
Exactly.

00:13:29.466 --> 00:13:30.226
You can do that.

00:13:30.287 --> 00:13:33.948
But you have to be in sync completely

00:13:33.989 --> 00:13:35.029
with the developer.

00:13:36.269 --> 00:13:38.572
You have to know that a certain banner

00:13:38.672 --> 00:13:39.812
or a certain part of the page is

00:13:39.832 --> 00:13:40.852
going to be served from the cache.

00:13:41.052 --> 00:13:42.933
And you have to identify those parts of

00:13:42.953 --> 00:13:43.315
the page.

00:13:44.014 --> 00:13:44.174
Yeah.

00:13:44.615 --> 00:13:45.816
And you can't change those either.

00:13:46.556 --> 00:13:48.035
But like caching is one of the best

00:13:48.076 --> 00:13:49.636
and worst things ever because it's like

00:13:49.657 --> 00:13:51.697
the easiest way to hide all your

00:13:51.738 --> 00:13:52.538
performance issues.

00:13:52.998 --> 00:13:54.458
On the other side of things,

00:13:54.558 --> 00:13:55.119
it's the easy,

00:13:55.318 --> 00:13:56.879
maybe the easiest way to make your site

00:13:57.840 --> 00:14:00.461
significantly, significantly faster,

00:14:00.961 --> 00:14:01.941
you know, closer to the user.

00:14:01.961 --> 00:14:02.360
Yeah.

00:14:02.400 --> 00:14:03.402
Yeah.

00:14:03.461 --> 00:14:04.341
That's why we always do our

00:14:04.381 --> 00:14:06.143
troubleshooting without caching.

00:14:06.602 --> 00:14:07.102
Like if you want

00:14:07.485 --> 00:14:08.585
Yeah, fix the root cause,

00:14:08.605 --> 00:14:09.505
and then you don't need to worry so

00:14:09.525 --> 00:14:09.706
much.

00:14:09.846 --> 00:14:11.125
You don't need to rely so much on

00:14:11.166 --> 00:14:11.686
your caching.

00:14:12.285 --> 00:14:12.726
Exactly.

00:14:14.027 --> 00:14:14.647
What's a good term?

00:14:15.006 --> 00:14:17.967
I've used this in a WordPress meetup in

00:14:18.028 --> 00:14:18.388
Athens.

00:14:19.548 --> 00:14:22.450
Caching is a smart way to do less

00:14:22.509 --> 00:14:23.090
steps.

00:14:24.169 --> 00:14:24.890
for certain things.

00:14:25.250 --> 00:14:26.552
But I don't know, I make pizzas.

00:14:26.831 --> 00:14:28.552
And I've been doing it like religiously

00:14:28.633 --> 00:14:28.952
lately,

00:14:28.972 --> 00:14:30.214
because it's becoming an obsession.

00:14:30.533 --> 00:14:32.716
If I do less steps in my pizza

00:14:32.755 --> 00:14:33.515
making process,

00:14:33.816 --> 00:14:35.417
my dough isn't going to come out right.

00:14:37.239 --> 00:14:38.539
So I don't know,

00:14:38.559 --> 00:14:40.039
it doesn't apply to every situation.

00:14:40.059 --> 00:14:41.942
The cat thing.

00:14:41.981 --> 00:14:43.482
Yep.

00:14:43.503 --> 00:14:45.783
What took you what what took you into

00:14:45.903 --> 00:14:46.865
the WordPress world?

00:14:48.123 --> 00:14:49.344
Honest to God, it was just an ad.

00:14:49.985 --> 00:14:51.586
There's no fun or cool story here.

00:14:51.706 --> 00:14:53.929
I'm not an old WordPress contributor.

00:14:55.010 --> 00:14:55.552
Sure, okay.

00:14:56.452 --> 00:14:58.774
I was taught to use WordPress as a

00:14:58.855 --> 00:15:00.157
go-to in high school,

00:15:00.857 --> 00:15:02.438
but that's just because I think

00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:05.081
It wasn't part of the formal curriculum

00:15:05.501 --> 00:15:05.861
back then.

00:15:06.001 --> 00:15:07.543
I graduated high school in two thousand

00:15:07.582 --> 00:15:07.783
nine.

00:15:08.283 --> 00:15:10.684
But I think it was because our electronics

00:15:10.924 --> 00:15:13.506
slash computer science teacher used

00:15:13.586 --> 00:15:15.408
WordPress at some point in his life.

00:15:15.447 --> 00:15:17.168
So, Mr. Nichols, Richard Nichols,

00:15:17.288 --> 00:15:17.669
great guy.

00:15:17.970 --> 00:15:18.450
Awesome guy.

00:15:18.690 --> 00:15:18.990
Loved him.

00:15:19.331 --> 00:15:20.871
Shout out to Mr. Nichols.

00:15:20.912 --> 00:15:21.731
Hi, Mr. Nichols.

00:15:24.153 --> 00:15:25.274
I think I can call him Richard now,

00:15:25.335 --> 00:15:25.634
can't I?

00:15:26.855 --> 00:15:28.136
It's always weird with teachers.

00:15:28.157 --> 00:15:30.758
Yeah, you get over it.

00:15:33.461 --> 00:15:33.880
But yeah,

00:15:33.900 --> 00:15:35.884
I think it was because it was his

00:15:35.943 --> 00:15:36.404
go to at the time.

00:15:37.706 --> 00:15:38.969
And you were telling me earlier that

00:15:38.989 --> 00:15:41.393
you're now involved in the WordCamp Athens

00:15:41.513 --> 00:15:42.214
organization.

00:15:43.014 --> 00:15:44.076
Tell me about how that happened.

00:15:44.750 --> 00:15:45.750
Yeah, I'm a co-organizer.

00:15:45.931 --> 00:15:46.750
I was asked if I wanted to be

00:15:46.791 --> 00:15:47.231
part of it.

00:15:47.511 --> 00:15:50.354
I gave one of those really sure yes,

00:15:50.573 --> 00:15:51.894
I definitely want to be part of it.

00:15:51.914 --> 00:15:54.076
And now, towards the end,

00:15:54.275 --> 00:15:55.636
there's a lot of work.

00:15:55.657 --> 00:15:56.638
Yeah, yeah.

00:15:56.658 --> 00:16:00.379
So for someone who doesn't know what's

00:16:00.500 --> 00:16:03.042
involved in organizing a camp,

00:16:03.741 --> 00:16:05.682
or even a local meetup,

00:16:05.702 --> 00:16:06.923
but we'll talk about camps.

00:16:09.131 --> 00:16:09.692
I've done this,

00:16:09.712 --> 00:16:10.974
so I already sort of know this story,

00:16:10.994 --> 00:16:14.956
but what does that look like for you,

00:16:15.475 --> 00:16:17.376
especially maybe if this is like your

00:16:17.456 --> 00:16:19.418
first WordCamp that you've been involved

00:16:19.458 --> 00:16:19.599
in?

00:16:20.859 --> 00:16:21.759
It's the first WordCamp.

00:16:21.860 --> 00:16:25.662
I was a volunteer for WordCamp Europe,

00:16:25.822 --> 00:16:27.683
yeah.

00:16:27.703 --> 00:16:32.105
Twice, once in Athens and once in Torino.

00:16:32.125 --> 00:16:33.366
That was good because it was all very

00:16:33.386 --> 00:16:34.727
structured and I just had to pick a

00:16:34.768 --> 00:16:35.388
role and do my role.

00:16:35.408 --> 00:16:36.448
You just had to show up, yeah.

00:16:36.969 --> 00:16:37.830
Yeah, pretty much.

00:16:37.870 --> 00:16:39.631
And you wear your different colored shirt

00:16:39.711 --> 00:16:40.032
or whatever.

00:16:41.874 --> 00:16:43.375
Now, we did do that.

00:16:43.414 --> 00:16:44.475
We did something similar like that.

00:16:44.495 --> 00:16:45.476
We did spread out roles.

00:16:46.157 --> 00:16:48.298
But you have to fill in blanks all

00:16:48.379 --> 00:16:48.940
over the place.

00:16:50.181 --> 00:16:51.562
You just have to keep helping each other.

00:16:51.962 --> 00:16:52.243
And sure,

00:16:52.263 --> 00:16:53.724
there's always going to be an imbalance.

00:16:54.043 --> 00:16:55.905
We've got twelve different organizers.

00:16:56.005 --> 00:16:57.528
All twelve are either running their own

00:16:57.567 --> 00:16:58.889
business or working somewhere else.

00:16:59.428 --> 00:17:02.412
They're all busy half the time.

00:17:02.471 --> 00:17:03.533
The other half the time, they're,

00:17:04.134 --> 00:17:05.215
I don't know, living their lives.

00:17:05.395 --> 00:17:06.155
Let's not forget that.

00:17:06.317 --> 00:17:08.839
And then they have WordCamp organizing

00:17:08.999 --> 00:17:10.360
going on too.

00:17:10.520 --> 00:17:12.102
And I'll be straight with everyone.

00:17:12.523 --> 00:17:13.024
In the beginning,

00:17:13.183 --> 00:17:14.565
I was one of the most inactive out

00:17:14.585 --> 00:17:15.046
of the twelve.

00:17:15.645 --> 00:17:17.226
And now these past two weeks,

00:17:17.706 --> 00:17:19.347
I'm the guy responding to emails,

00:17:19.528 --> 00:17:21.729
which responding to emails like for the

00:17:21.769 --> 00:17:23.989
sponsors team doesn't really mean like,

00:17:24.028 --> 00:17:25.569
you know, you write a five minute email.

00:17:25.609 --> 00:17:26.809
You have to look all over the place

00:17:26.829 --> 00:17:28.651
to gather the information that you need

00:17:28.691 --> 00:17:30.771
for that particular person so you can be,

00:17:30.991 --> 00:17:32.573
again, aware of their situation.

00:17:33.393 --> 00:17:35.336
before you can formulate a reply.

00:17:36.356 --> 00:17:38.740
And if something is taking long with this

00:17:39.261 --> 00:17:42.025
confirmation process that is going on with

00:17:42.086 --> 00:17:43.166
WordCamp Central now,

00:17:44.749 --> 00:17:47.212
it's our fault that it's taking too long.

00:17:48.269 --> 00:17:48.609
It's not.

00:17:48.829 --> 00:17:51.291
We're the direct point of contact.

00:17:51.553 --> 00:17:54.454
It's like you go to a restaurant and

00:17:54.474 --> 00:17:55.035
you have a problem.

00:17:55.435 --> 00:17:57.037
I worked in service for a long time

00:17:57.676 --> 00:18:00.799
and I use service based analogies very

00:18:00.859 --> 00:18:01.079
often.

00:18:01.339 --> 00:18:02.520
But you go to a restaurant and you're

00:18:02.540 --> 00:18:04.282
not happy with something or you find like

00:18:04.303 --> 00:18:05.022
a huge hair,

00:18:05.143 --> 00:18:07.025
multiple pieces of hair or even something

00:18:07.045 --> 00:18:08.326
that's moving that shouldn't be moving on

00:18:08.346 --> 00:18:08.726
your plate.

00:18:11.448 --> 00:18:12.607
The waiter's going to take the shit.

00:18:14.209 --> 00:18:15.430
And then it kind of goes up the...

00:18:16.109 --> 00:18:18.151
Yeah,

00:18:18.191 --> 00:18:19.451
and then you have a Karen that asks

00:18:19.592 --> 00:18:20.811
to talk to the manager,

00:18:20.832 --> 00:18:21.893
and then the manager pulls out the head

00:18:21.913 --> 00:18:22.153
chef.

00:18:22.192 --> 00:18:22.353
Yeah,

00:18:23.574 --> 00:18:25.755
and it just makes everyone's day really

00:18:25.775 --> 00:18:26.015
bad.

00:18:26.154 --> 00:18:27.455
There has to be a lot of patience.

00:18:27.496 --> 00:18:28.635
There has to be a lot of,

00:18:28.655 --> 00:18:29.276
from what I'm seeing,

00:18:29.317 --> 00:18:30.696
there has to be a lot of understanding.

00:18:31.877 --> 00:18:33.979
Things do magically seem to work.

00:18:35.076 --> 00:18:36.538
Because we have to do it.

00:18:38.159 --> 00:18:39.440
We're at the point that we have to

00:18:39.480 --> 00:18:39.779
do it.

00:18:39.940 --> 00:18:41.481
I think there's a certain demarcation

00:18:41.521 --> 00:18:43.563
point where if you really can't handle,

00:18:43.583 --> 00:18:45.065
which I think I was there at that

00:18:45.105 --> 00:18:45.964
demarcation point.

00:18:46.546 --> 00:18:50.269
I think I was the weak link until

00:18:50.469 --> 00:18:52.009
I had to not be the weak link.

00:18:52.391 --> 00:18:53.692
And now I'm quite tired.

00:18:55.192 --> 00:18:57.673
But there's still some pushing to go.

00:18:58.273 --> 00:19:00.414
There's a lot of last minute things to

00:19:00.454 --> 00:19:00.634
go.

00:19:01.174 --> 00:19:02.375
And we're actually getting a lot of

00:19:02.615 --> 00:19:04.976
engagement from people, mostly positive.

00:19:05.195 --> 00:19:10.917
People asking to sponsor, obviously.

00:19:11.417 --> 00:19:12.478
People asking to volunteer.

00:19:12.518 --> 00:19:14.459
Volunteering seems to be a lot easier.

00:19:15.898 --> 00:19:17.519
Finding volunteers seems to be a lot

00:19:17.579 --> 00:19:19.320
easier than it is to find sponsors.

00:19:19.661 --> 00:19:19.881
Yes.

00:19:21.500 --> 00:19:23.442
WordCamp Central has been very good about

00:19:23.481 --> 00:19:25.462
the portion that they've given us for the

00:19:25.502 --> 00:19:25.803
event.

00:19:25.823 --> 00:19:27.003
I'm not going to lie there.

00:19:28.284 --> 00:19:29.845
Yeah.

00:19:29.865 --> 00:19:29.944
Yeah.

00:19:30.204 --> 00:19:33.146
When is WordCamp Athens?

00:19:33.166 --> 00:19:33.686
When is?

00:19:33.946 --> 00:19:34.346
Yeah, when?

00:19:34.967 --> 00:19:35.627
November eighth.

00:19:35.867 --> 00:19:36.307
November eighth.

00:19:36.367 --> 00:19:36.627
Oh, yeah.

00:19:36.667 --> 00:19:37.048
My birthday.

00:19:38.769 --> 00:19:40.309
Happy birthday, WordCamp Athens.

00:19:40.329 --> 00:19:41.190
Yeah.

00:19:42.049 --> 00:19:42.530
Unfortunately,

00:19:42.550 --> 00:19:43.631
I won't be going to Athens for my

00:19:43.671 --> 00:19:44.211
birthday this year.

00:19:46.894 --> 00:19:48.076
keyword this year.

00:19:48.176 --> 00:19:49.179
I'd like to go to Athens for my

00:19:49.199 --> 00:19:49.519
birthday.

00:19:51.598 --> 00:19:53.500
Um, but yeah, so no, I, I,

00:19:53.721 --> 00:19:55.442
I did, um, I was organized,

00:19:55.582 --> 00:19:57.324
I was involved in WordCamp Salt Lake City

00:19:57.344 --> 00:19:59.184
for, for a long, long, long, long, long,

00:19:59.224 --> 00:19:59.645
long time.

00:19:59.685 --> 00:20:01.767
I started out as a volunteer, um,

00:20:01.867 --> 00:20:04.910
and then I was, um,

00:20:04.970 --> 00:20:06.391
and then I get more involved and then

00:20:06.431 --> 00:20:08.252
eventually I was doing like just, uh,

00:20:08.353 --> 00:20:10.314
working with like speakers and stuff and

00:20:10.374 --> 00:20:10.994
sponsors.

00:20:11.434 --> 00:20:13.757
And then I was co-organizing and I

00:20:13.797 --> 00:20:16.519
co-organized for two years and then I solo

00:20:16.619 --> 00:20:18.280
organized for two years and then I was

00:20:18.500 --> 00:20:19.480
pretty done.

00:20:20.001 --> 00:20:21.602
And that also like that last year,

00:20:22.722 --> 00:20:25.463
that last year that I that I organized

00:20:25.503 --> 00:20:29.545
was also probably twenty eighteen.

00:20:29.565 --> 00:20:31.586
So like just before covid.

00:20:32.066 --> 00:20:33.266
So like, yeah,

00:20:33.326 --> 00:20:36.548
then then then covid happened.

00:20:36.847 --> 00:20:37.008
Well,

00:20:37.248 --> 00:20:38.969
a we didn't have one in twenty nineteen

00:20:39.009 --> 00:20:39.628
because nobody,

00:20:40.288 --> 00:20:43.250
nobody in the community was like able or

00:20:43.269 --> 00:20:44.871
willing to pick up the reins after I

00:20:44.931 --> 00:20:45.371
basically

00:20:45.810 --> 00:20:47.673
carried it for I mean at that point

00:20:47.813 --> 00:20:49.173
close to four years like I mean it

00:20:49.193 --> 00:20:51.875
was it was me and one other person

00:20:51.895 --> 00:20:54.678
were lead organizing and uh the two years

00:20:54.698 --> 00:20:58.181
before I was just fully organizing but or

00:20:58.201 --> 00:21:00.942
lead organizing but um but yeah nobody

00:21:00.982 --> 00:21:02.983
else was was willing to to to pick

00:21:03.023 --> 00:21:05.326
up the the the reins and then and

00:21:05.365 --> 00:21:07.867
then COVID hit and that kind of decimated

00:21:08.567 --> 00:21:10.630
our like local meetup group like

00:21:12.901 --> 00:21:14.243
We still haven't really picked up.

00:21:16.448 --> 00:21:19.974
Somebody posted in our Utah WordCamp Slack

00:21:20.817 --> 00:21:22.380
last week and it was the first time.

00:21:22.914 --> 00:21:24.776
It had gotten to the point where Slack

00:21:24.856 --> 00:21:28.920
cuts off after the first message in the

00:21:28.980 --> 00:21:31.362
general channel after the last cutoff.

00:21:31.622 --> 00:21:33.603
It had been that long that it had

00:21:33.623 --> 00:21:34.163
been quiet.

00:21:36.385 --> 00:21:38.186
And it's sad.

00:21:38.686 --> 00:21:39.887
I would like to have a community,

00:21:39.928 --> 00:21:41.970
but it's a lot of work and I

00:21:41.990 --> 00:21:44.291
don't want to do the work involved in

00:21:45.772 --> 00:21:47.673
lifting the community on my own shoulders.

00:21:48.694 --> 00:21:49.976
has it like kind of fixed you guys

00:21:49.996 --> 00:21:51.718
do meetups because i know the athens oh

00:21:51.758 --> 00:21:53.659
this was before i was like really involved

00:21:53.679 --> 00:21:55.280
in wordpress aside from making a website

00:21:55.340 --> 00:21:58.383
using wordpress uh the athens community

00:21:58.403 --> 00:22:00.285
had the same issue like after covid we're

00:22:00.585 --> 00:22:02.666
probably still not back up to speed since

00:22:02.686 --> 00:22:04.828
the before christo stays yeah

00:22:05.236 --> 00:22:07.376
Yeah, no, we haven't.

00:22:07.457 --> 00:22:08.277
I mean, if there are meetups,

00:22:08.297 --> 00:22:09.576
they're not happening through our Slack.

00:22:09.876 --> 00:22:12.597
There used to be like a Salt Lake

00:22:12.637 --> 00:22:14.117
Valley meetup and there used to be like

00:22:14.258 --> 00:22:15.317
a couple of people that would meet up

00:22:15.337 --> 00:22:16.058
in like Park City.

00:22:17.239 --> 00:22:18.959
And I mean, a lot of those people,

00:22:19.038 --> 00:22:21.259
to be fair, moved out of Utah.

00:22:21.740 --> 00:22:23.059
So like that also,

00:22:23.099 --> 00:22:24.381
it's not just the COVID that killed

00:22:24.421 --> 00:22:24.800
everything.

00:22:24.840 --> 00:22:25.480
It was also like,

00:22:25.641 --> 00:22:27.280
I think there's almost like a COVID exodus

00:22:27.300 --> 00:22:27.980
that happened too.

00:22:28.041 --> 00:22:28.521
Like people,

00:22:28.961 --> 00:22:30.342
like when everybody was remote working,

00:22:30.362 --> 00:22:31.582
then everybody decided that they could

00:22:31.642 --> 00:22:33.542
like move other places and live other

00:22:33.563 --> 00:22:33.923
places.

00:22:35.865 --> 00:22:39.127
And so that, I think, affected things too.

00:22:39.248 --> 00:22:40.848
But yeah,

00:22:41.210 --> 00:22:43.571
most of the people that were leading the

00:22:43.592 --> 00:22:45.653
charge for making sure that the meetups

00:22:45.673 --> 00:22:47.816
were happening and the WordCamps and stuff

00:22:47.836 --> 00:22:50.617
were happening kind of got burned out.

00:22:51.638 --> 00:22:52.298
No, that makes sense.

00:22:52.459 --> 00:22:54.759
But what surprises me, like I pulled up,

00:22:55.180 --> 00:22:56.181
that's why I'm looking around.

00:22:56.340 --> 00:22:57.421
I'm on the laptop.

00:22:57.800 --> 00:22:59.561
I pulled up the results of last year's

00:22:59.642 --> 00:23:01.122
WordCamp Larissa.

00:23:01.462 --> 00:23:02.563
I'm sure you've never heard of Larissa,

00:23:02.603 --> 00:23:03.782
right?

00:23:03.883 --> 00:23:05.763
Yeah, it's I think the third.

00:23:06.124 --> 00:23:06.443
Oh man,

00:23:06.463 --> 00:23:07.744
the Larissa people are going to get upset

00:23:07.765 --> 00:23:07.964
with me.

00:23:08.505 --> 00:23:11.967
It's either the third or I think it's

00:23:11.987 --> 00:23:13.749
the third or fourth largest city in

00:23:13.769 --> 00:23:14.048
Greece.

00:23:15.349 --> 00:23:16.851
It's up near Mount Olympus.

00:23:17.530 --> 00:23:20.452
And they had two hundred and forty two

00:23:20.613 --> 00:23:21.153
attendees.

00:23:21.874 --> 00:23:23.954
And it's got some other fun stuff from

00:23:23.994 --> 00:23:25.115
twelve different cities in Greece,

00:23:25.155 --> 00:23:26.656
fifty percent newcomers,

00:23:28.637 --> 00:23:30.519
thirteen speakers, fourteen volunteers,

00:23:30.659 --> 00:23:32.921
two hundred and forty two for a very

00:23:33.060 --> 00:23:34.001
local, I'd say,

00:23:34.902 --> 00:23:36.702
not even in the first or second largest

00:23:36.883 --> 00:23:37.104
city.

00:23:38.131 --> 00:23:40.051
And everything went really well.

00:23:40.551 --> 00:23:41.731
We were all very surprised.

00:23:41.872 --> 00:23:42.011
Well,

00:23:42.592 --> 00:23:43.833
I don't know if they were because I

00:23:43.853 --> 00:23:44.932
wasn't expecting it.

00:23:44.972 --> 00:23:46.834
But I was very surprised to see that

00:23:47.153 --> 00:23:49.714
smaller part of Greece that geographically

00:23:49.755 --> 00:23:51.115
kind of works for everyone because it's

00:23:51.134 --> 00:23:51.795
kind of in the middle.

00:23:53.036 --> 00:23:55.635
If you don't count the Philippines.

00:23:56.797 --> 00:23:58.096
It went very well,

00:23:58.797 --> 00:23:59.798
which was very inspirational,

00:23:59.837 --> 00:24:01.337
especially for WordCamp Athens this year.

00:24:02.637 --> 00:24:06.420
Yeah, location matters a lot.

00:24:06.619 --> 00:24:07.259
It's like...

00:24:08.212 --> 00:24:09.693
And it's interesting,

00:24:11.775 --> 00:24:15.176
the WordPress events versus and how they

00:24:15.217 --> 00:24:18.919
have or have not come back after COVID

00:24:18.959 --> 00:24:21.619
versus Drupal events I'm learning.

00:24:22.559 --> 00:24:24.942
Because I think that for the most part,

00:24:25.701 --> 00:24:25.862
Like,

00:24:25.882 --> 00:24:27.884
Drupal events are still smaller than

00:24:27.904 --> 00:24:30.048
WordPress events or than they used to be

00:24:30.068 --> 00:24:30.710
before COVID.

00:24:31.250 --> 00:24:33.093
But they are happening.

00:24:33.153 --> 00:24:34.234
And, like, the local, like,

00:24:34.535 --> 00:24:36.137
sort of regional or city-based sort of

00:24:36.357 --> 00:24:37.680
meetup groups are, like,

00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:40.263
making Drupal camps.

00:24:40.825 --> 00:24:40.845
I...

00:24:42.238 --> 00:24:43.999
I just came back from Bay Area Drupal

00:24:44.038 --> 00:24:46.980
camp, bad camp last month.

00:24:47.099 --> 00:24:48.559
And it was a pretty nice, I mean,

00:24:48.599 --> 00:24:49.601
it was a cool turnout.

00:24:49.661 --> 00:24:52.082
It felt like a small word camp and

00:24:52.102 --> 00:24:52.721
that was cool.

00:24:54.782 --> 00:24:56.663
And there's been a couple others that I've

00:24:56.723 --> 00:24:56.923
seen

00:24:58.124 --> 00:24:59.105
For the most part,

00:24:59.226 --> 00:25:01.588
there are very few of those things

00:25:01.628 --> 00:25:04.692
happening in the WordPress space in the

00:25:04.732 --> 00:25:07.757
States outside of the flagships,

00:25:08.577 --> 00:25:10.380
which I find interesting and

00:25:10.421 --> 00:25:11.020
disheartening.

00:25:11.602 --> 00:25:13.263
And there's...

00:25:13.964 --> 00:25:16.246
Possibly drama involved in that.

00:25:17.027 --> 00:25:19.748
I know at least in a couple cases,

00:25:19.867 --> 00:25:23.509
some folks have chosen to make their own

00:25:23.549 --> 00:25:26.511
event as opposed to doing a WordPress

00:25:26.531 --> 00:25:29.693
community support WordPress WordCamp

00:25:29.993 --> 00:25:30.354
event.

00:25:31.515 --> 00:25:33.135
Like, you know,

00:25:33.256 --> 00:25:36.277
instead of like the organizers of WordCamp

00:25:36.718 --> 00:25:37.438
Minneapolis St.

00:25:37.458 --> 00:25:39.618
Paul decided to make some conf instead,

00:25:39.959 --> 00:25:41.119
which I'll be speaking on in a couple

00:25:41.160 --> 00:25:41.359
months.

00:25:43.586 --> 00:25:44.827
Which, I mean, I think that's great,

00:25:44.907 --> 00:25:46.789
but also, like, there's stuff there.

00:25:46.809 --> 00:25:47.550
There's, I think,

00:25:47.891 --> 00:25:49.451
Brad Williams announced a while ago

00:25:50.553 --> 00:25:52.515
Wordadelphia to do, like,

00:25:52.535 --> 00:25:55.196
a small WordPress event in Philly.

00:25:56.758 --> 00:25:57.919
Wordadelphia, yeah.

00:25:57.999 --> 00:26:00.060
Because Philadelphia, Wordadelphia,

00:26:00.221 --> 00:26:00.540
I don't know.

00:26:00.621 --> 00:26:01.142
It's a weird name.

00:26:03.261 --> 00:26:05.962
And I think there's another one that was

00:26:06.042 --> 00:26:12.625
done by the WordCamp Buffalo organizers

00:26:12.664 --> 00:26:14.924
that's I think it's color code or

00:26:14.964 --> 00:26:15.964
something to that effect,

00:26:16.925 --> 00:26:18.226
which is actually going to be like in

00:26:18.286 --> 00:26:19.086
different places,

00:26:19.125 --> 00:26:21.807
but it started in Buffalo.

00:26:22.967 --> 00:26:24.626
And so like there's these other things and

00:26:24.646 --> 00:26:25.688
obviously pressconf

00:26:27.067 --> 00:26:29.147
But that's not really like, I mean,

00:26:29.167 --> 00:26:32.509
that was descended from Pressnomics.

00:26:32.769 --> 00:26:33.669
So it's sort of, but like,

00:26:33.709 --> 00:26:35.230
it's nice to see that there are other

00:26:35.269 --> 00:26:38.049
things happening outside of just the

00:26:38.089 --> 00:26:39.730
WordCamp ecosystem.

00:26:39.750 --> 00:26:39.990
Plus,

00:26:40.090 --> 00:26:43.090
I like things like PressConf specifically

00:26:43.111 --> 00:26:43.692
that you mentioned.

00:26:43.872 --> 00:26:44.892
Or, okay,

00:26:44.932 --> 00:26:46.132
so there's the WordPress community and

00:26:46.152 --> 00:26:47.571
there's WordPress community events where

00:26:47.632 --> 00:26:48.752
we're supposed to be,

00:26:48.792 --> 00:26:49.633
from my understanding,

00:26:49.972 --> 00:26:51.732
and maybe the point of view of a

00:26:51.792 --> 00:26:53.834
relative newcomer is like, you know,

00:26:55.354 --> 00:26:56.734
For my understanding,

00:26:56.775 --> 00:26:57.835
it's supposed to be a little bit more

00:26:57.875 --> 00:26:59.816
community-based than it is business-based,

00:27:00.236 --> 00:27:03.597
kind of like WordPress or Slack, right?

00:27:03.817 --> 00:27:05.118
It's definitely community-based.

00:27:05.990 --> 00:27:08.330
But then you have people turning these

00:27:08.371 --> 00:27:11.011
kinds of events that are geared towards

00:27:11.031 --> 00:27:16.294
community into more commercial events.

00:27:16.614 --> 00:27:17.354
Whereas PressConf,

00:27:17.394 --> 00:27:18.255
they're there to make money.

00:27:18.375 --> 00:27:19.494
You're there to make connections.

00:27:19.515 --> 00:27:20.316
You're there to make money.

00:27:20.395 --> 00:27:21.655
And it's clear, right?

00:27:21.715 --> 00:27:23.477
So kind of like post status and the

00:27:23.517 --> 00:27:24.156
WordPress org.

00:27:24.497 --> 00:27:25.438
Yeah.

00:27:25.478 --> 00:27:25.718
Yeah.

00:27:26.978 --> 00:27:29.179
I really like when it's clear,

00:27:29.358 --> 00:27:30.019
when it's clear cut,

00:27:30.038 --> 00:27:31.378
like you know you're there to make

00:27:31.419 --> 00:27:32.420
connections, to make money,

00:27:32.460 --> 00:27:34.440
to progress your business.

00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:35.560
Whereas with WordCamps,

00:27:35.601 --> 00:27:36.520
I'm kind of confused.

00:27:36.760 --> 00:27:37.780
I think it's a bit of a mix

00:27:37.921 --> 00:27:39.662
and I don't know where the balance should

00:27:39.701 --> 00:27:41.761
be, would be,

00:27:42.241 --> 00:27:43.903
or people even want the balance to be.

00:27:44.343 --> 00:27:45.443
That's a really fair point.

00:27:45.523 --> 00:27:49.246
I know when I was wrangling speakers for

00:27:49.526 --> 00:27:50.707
WordCamp Salt Lake City,

00:27:51.386 --> 00:27:53.387
the Salt Lake City meetups often had a

00:27:53.468 --> 00:27:57.849
very strong small business sort of focus.

00:27:58.009 --> 00:27:59.671
And part of that or a large part

00:27:59.691 --> 00:28:00.372
of that is

00:28:01.571 --> 00:28:02.853
Salt Lake City in particular,

00:28:03.073 --> 00:28:04.473
Utah broadly,

00:28:05.074 --> 00:28:07.095
and even more broad than that,

00:28:07.174 --> 00:28:09.356
I would say like the dominant culture in

00:28:09.396 --> 00:28:12.838
the state is very big on sort of

00:28:12.878 --> 00:28:14.539
small business and kind of do it yourself

00:28:14.559 --> 00:28:15.099
kind of things.

00:28:16.079 --> 00:28:19.582
So obviously that filters down into a lot

00:28:19.602 --> 00:28:20.823
of people that go to the meetups,

00:28:20.843 --> 00:28:21.903
a lot of people that are interested in

00:28:21.943 --> 00:28:22.364
the camps.

00:28:22.903 --> 00:28:24.806
are small business oriented or small

00:28:24.846 --> 00:28:26.527
business owners or whatever.

00:28:26.547 --> 00:28:30.930
And so obviously as an organizer trying to

00:28:30.990 --> 00:28:32.090
come up with a schedule,

00:28:32.151 --> 00:28:33.652
you want to cater to that,

00:28:34.833 --> 00:28:37.275
but also balance with like,

00:28:37.914 --> 00:28:39.855
also we should have some dev tracks too.

00:28:40.237 --> 00:28:40.457
Also,

00:28:40.477 --> 00:28:41.877
we should have some other things that

00:28:41.978 --> 00:28:43.239
aren't businessy that are like,

00:28:43.638 --> 00:28:45.500
And how to like balance that so that

00:28:45.520 --> 00:28:46.843
you have like, I mean,

00:28:46.903 --> 00:28:49.326
it's almost like an art to really get

00:28:49.506 --> 00:28:51.008
the right sketch.

00:28:51.127 --> 00:28:52.930
It's like making the perfect playlist.

00:28:53.210 --> 00:28:56.693
I'm really big on making play.

00:28:56.713 --> 00:28:57.894
Like I used to be a DJ.

00:28:58.635 --> 00:29:00.357
If you've ever seen the movie High

00:29:00.377 --> 00:29:02.059
Fidelity, he like, you know,

00:29:02.099 --> 00:29:03.060
there's this like.

00:29:03.101 --> 00:29:03.821
I haven't.

00:29:04.001 --> 00:29:06.462
all through the movie uh john cusack's

00:29:06.563 --> 00:29:09.724
character like talks about like um how he

00:29:09.744 --> 00:29:11.965
like like making the perfect playlist is

00:29:12.006 --> 00:29:14.127
like a common sort of thread and like

00:29:14.167 --> 00:29:16.249
he would sit down and like just like

00:29:16.429 --> 00:29:18.589
spend hours listening to records and like

00:29:18.690 --> 00:29:20.830
organizing things in the right way um to

00:29:20.851 --> 00:29:23.211
get the perfect flow it has to start

00:29:23.272 --> 00:29:25.314
this way it has to like you have

00:29:25.334 --> 00:29:26.334
to come down a little bit then you

00:29:26.374 --> 00:29:27.535
go up a little bit you know like

00:29:27.954 --> 00:29:29.415
like just like making,

00:29:29.915 --> 00:29:31.317
making it into an experience,

00:29:31.336 --> 00:29:33.638
which I think, uh, you know, obviously,

00:29:33.679 --> 00:29:36.480
uh, that is a, maybe a relic of,

00:29:36.740 --> 00:29:40.943
of, of records and cassettes and CDs and,

00:29:41.144 --> 00:29:42.685
and not streaming services.

00:29:42.705 --> 00:29:43.465
Um,

00:29:43.486 --> 00:29:45.247
but like the same thing is true for

00:29:45.346 --> 00:29:49.269
like crafting a, a, a schedule for,

00:29:49.450 --> 00:29:50.750
for an event like that,

00:29:50.790 --> 00:29:51.672
like where you have to like,

00:29:52.326 --> 00:29:55.249
understand who your audience is uh and

00:29:55.368 --> 00:29:57.932
figure out like and also like timing makes

00:29:57.971 --> 00:29:59.873
a difference end of the day talks

00:29:59.932 --> 00:30:01.795
everybody's tired everybody's sleepy

00:30:01.835 --> 00:30:03.836
especially at like post lunch like you

00:30:03.876 --> 00:30:04.978
need to like have something that's going

00:30:04.998 --> 00:30:06.259
to bring a lot of energy otherwise

00:30:06.299 --> 00:30:07.861
everybody's going to fall asleep like you

00:30:07.881 --> 00:30:09.323
know there's all sorts of stuff like that

00:30:10.221 --> 00:30:11.883
Yeah, there's definitely like risk too.

00:30:12.124 --> 00:30:14.085
So like we got a bunch of newcomers

00:30:14.125 --> 00:30:16.326
for speakers and we wanted newcomers for

00:30:16.346 --> 00:30:17.567
speakers under the idea.

00:30:17.788 --> 00:30:19.229
But then you have the thought in the

00:30:19.249 --> 00:30:19.828
back of your head,

00:30:20.329 --> 00:30:23.932
if that X well-known person isn't giving a

00:30:23.992 --> 00:30:26.954
talk, are people going to, I don't know,

00:30:26.974 --> 00:30:28.115
actually sit in the auditorium?

00:30:28.502 --> 00:30:29.143
Mm-hmm.

00:30:29.222 --> 00:30:30.463
Yeah.

00:30:30.523 --> 00:30:32.704
Yeah, you have to, like, you can maybe,

00:30:32.785 --> 00:30:33.765
like, if you, like,

00:30:34.484 --> 00:30:36.865
sandwich them with other talks that people

00:30:36.945 --> 00:30:38.547
do know or something, like, you can, like,

00:30:38.586 --> 00:30:39.788
kind of find ways to cheat.

00:30:40.768 --> 00:30:41.208
But, yeah.

00:30:41.567 --> 00:30:43.689
Or, like, yeah,

00:30:43.828 --> 00:30:45.150
it's a really interesting... Like,

00:30:45.170 --> 00:30:46.250
that was actually one of the things that

00:30:46.269 --> 00:30:48.530
I thought was really fun about, like,

00:30:49.070 --> 00:30:50.652
the speaker stuff is always something I

00:30:50.692 --> 00:30:52.833
really enjoyed working with, like,

00:30:53.012 --> 00:30:54.913
both from, like...

00:30:55.634 --> 00:30:57.114
because this is also like how you're

00:30:57.193 --> 00:31:00.134
presenting in some ways your local

00:31:00.154 --> 00:31:03.296
community right and like um it's not just

00:31:03.756 --> 00:31:07.057
we're not just here independent of of time

00:31:07.096 --> 00:31:09.417
and place and just talking about wordpress

00:31:09.438 --> 00:31:12.919
we're also putting on a show for for

00:31:12.959 --> 00:31:15.839
buy-in for the people of our city in

00:31:15.900 --> 00:31:19.201
our community yeah and so you you want

00:31:19.240 --> 00:31:20.621
that to to you know

00:31:21.521 --> 00:31:22.462
look good.

00:31:22.542 --> 00:31:24.224
You want your community to be cool.

00:31:24.464 --> 00:31:25.946
People will walk away and be like,

00:31:26.007 --> 00:31:26.928
you want people to come from out of

00:31:26.989 --> 00:31:29.371
state even or out of the city.

00:31:29.471 --> 00:31:30.353
It gets difficult.

00:31:30.452 --> 00:31:30.813
I don't know.

00:31:30.893 --> 00:31:32.776
I don't even know if I should be

00:31:32.816 --> 00:31:33.436
talking about this,

00:31:33.457 --> 00:31:34.417
but I'm going to do it anyway.

00:31:34.438 --> 00:31:36.039
Sorry, WordPress, if you don't like it.

00:31:36.339 --> 00:31:37.641
One of the issues that we face is

00:31:37.820 --> 00:31:39.821
not having enough submissions from

00:31:41.782 --> 00:31:42.222
females.

00:31:43.784 --> 00:31:44.545
So at the end of the day,

00:31:44.585 --> 00:31:46.165
the speaker's list is going to be,

00:31:46.625 --> 00:31:46.826
you know,

00:31:46.846 --> 00:31:48.406
there's not going to be the diversity that

00:31:48.446 --> 00:31:49.027
we'd want.

00:31:49.448 --> 00:31:50.107
Yeah.

00:31:50.428 --> 00:31:51.969
But it's not necessarily our fault.

00:31:51.989 --> 00:31:54.170
So we want to what we talked about

00:31:54.269 --> 00:31:56.731
was that we want to take some time

00:31:56.811 --> 00:31:58.853
during the event to encourage more female

00:31:58.893 --> 00:32:00.493
people to, you know,

00:32:00.534 --> 00:32:01.894
submit submissions for talks.

00:32:03.089 --> 00:32:05.270
I found, I had that same problem.

00:32:06.132 --> 00:32:08.252
And the solution to that problem is

00:32:08.452 --> 00:32:10.114
asking.

00:32:10.574 --> 00:32:10.674
Oh,

00:32:10.714 --> 00:32:12.415
like going straight to people and being

00:32:12.455 --> 00:32:12.756
like... Yes,

00:32:12.796 --> 00:32:14.557
going to people and just inviting them,

00:32:14.596 --> 00:32:17.739
say, hey, I'm the organizer for WordCamp,

00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:18.539
blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:32:19.660 --> 00:32:20.760
Do you want to come and speak?

00:32:21.402 --> 00:32:23.182
And oftentimes...

00:32:23.911 --> 00:32:24.872
The answer is yes.

00:32:25.211 --> 00:32:26.211
And that's cool.

00:32:26.251 --> 00:32:27.913
And then you can kind of curate that

00:32:28.252 --> 00:32:30.193
speaker list because for a long time,

00:32:31.654 --> 00:32:33.915
our WordCamp was in a hundred percent

00:32:33.955 --> 00:32:36.416
reliant on the submissions that we got.

00:32:36.817 --> 00:32:37.157
And yeah,

00:32:37.178 --> 00:32:38.637
there's only so much that you can sort

00:32:38.678 --> 00:32:42.920
of coerce the submissions and, you know,

00:32:42.980 --> 00:32:43.621
because

00:32:46.049 --> 00:32:49.050
the dominant culture is largely white

00:32:49.070 --> 00:32:51.531
males then the speakers that you end up

00:32:51.612 --> 00:32:54.292
getting are predominantly white males i

00:32:54.333 --> 00:32:57.554
presented actually at a um at uh open

00:32:57.594 --> 00:33:01.474
west back in like i don't know twenty

00:33:01.494 --> 00:33:02.736
eighteen twenty nineteen or something

00:33:02.796 --> 00:33:03.576
before covet again

00:33:04.516 --> 00:33:07.678
And I was presenting on being an ally.

00:33:09.298 --> 00:33:11.838
And the way that their speaker submission

00:33:12.038 --> 00:33:12.339
worked,

00:33:12.400 --> 00:33:13.599
and I think it's actually similar to the

00:33:13.619 --> 00:33:16.221
way WordCamp Europe does it now, maybe.

00:33:16.340 --> 00:33:17.882
Maybe there's just other things that they

00:33:17.922 --> 00:33:20.063
add to that that I don't know about

00:33:20.123 --> 00:33:20.742
behind the scenes.

00:33:20.782 --> 00:33:23.564
But the way that Open West did submissions

00:33:23.723 --> 00:33:25.164
is it was sort of like you entered

00:33:25.204 --> 00:33:28.425
into a system and then names and stuff

00:33:28.506 --> 00:33:30.346
are removed from all of the submissions so

00:33:30.366 --> 00:33:31.968
that it's judged purely on

00:33:32.627 --> 00:33:34.851
the content of the submission,

00:33:35.730 --> 00:33:37.192
so you don't know who submitted it.

00:33:38.034 --> 00:33:41.356
And the idea is that that's more

00:33:41.438 --> 00:33:42.337
egalitarian, right?

00:33:42.378 --> 00:33:44.941
Because you're just basing your acceptance

00:33:45.121 --> 00:33:47.743
or rejection based on the subject matter.

00:33:48.305 --> 00:33:51.127
The problem with that that I observed was

00:33:51.188 --> 00:33:51.508
that

00:33:52.628 --> 00:33:55.329
Eighty to ninety percent of the speakers

00:33:55.349 --> 00:33:57.230
that were selected for that conference

00:33:57.250 --> 00:34:00.093
were male and most of them were white

00:34:00.133 --> 00:34:00.393
male.

00:34:01.432 --> 00:34:03.213
And here I am giving a talk on

00:34:03.354 --> 00:34:03.973
allyship.

00:34:04.714 --> 00:34:05.934
And like, I'm like,

00:34:06.575 --> 00:34:08.276
I told I told the organizer, like, look,

00:34:08.435 --> 00:34:08.675
like,

00:34:09.076 --> 00:34:10.136
I'm giving this talk and I'm going to

00:34:10.156 --> 00:34:11.557
blast you because.

00:34:12.397 --> 00:34:14.519
like all of the keynotes were men except

00:34:14.539 --> 00:34:17.321
for one um like most of the talks

00:34:17.342 --> 00:34:18.803
were by men and i was like you

00:34:18.823 --> 00:34:20.864
know i i think that there are better

00:34:20.884 --> 00:34:22.204
ways of doing this and i i see

00:34:22.224 --> 00:34:24.747
what you're doing but also i have a

00:34:24.807 --> 00:34:26.188
counterpoint and i'm going to talk about

00:34:26.228 --> 00:34:28.269
that is that okay and it was like

00:34:28.289 --> 00:34:31.731
he said yes um and uh but yeah

00:34:31.751 --> 00:34:33.273
i mean like i think i think if

00:34:33.293 --> 00:34:34.795
you just rely on

00:34:35.434 --> 00:34:37.155
on the submissions and you don't do sort

00:34:37.195 --> 00:34:38.076
of your own outreach,

00:34:38.115 --> 00:34:39.036
then you're going to get,

00:34:39.637 --> 00:34:40.896
you're going to just get it naturally

00:34:40.916 --> 00:34:42.617
because that's kind of how the tech

00:34:42.797 --> 00:34:43.978
industry just works.

00:34:43.998 --> 00:34:46.318
And it's upsetting too,

00:34:46.378 --> 00:34:48.199
like all the other teams volunteer wise,

00:34:49.239 --> 00:34:50.099
organizing wise,

00:34:50.501 --> 00:34:52.400
where we have a great mix and,

00:34:52.581 --> 00:34:53.722
you know, without great mix,

00:34:53.822 --> 00:34:54.702
everyone knows this already,

00:34:54.742 --> 00:34:55.521
but without diversity,

00:34:55.541 --> 00:34:56.322
you don't have innovation.

00:34:56.362 --> 00:34:58.123
Without innovation, you don't do anything.

00:34:58.262 --> 00:34:58.523
I mean,

00:34:58.724 --> 00:35:01.385
it's been proven over and over and over.

00:35:01.684 --> 00:35:02.144
Yeah.

00:35:02.204 --> 00:35:02.364
Yeah.

00:35:02.983 --> 00:35:04.443
Yeah, I feel strongly about like,

00:35:04.545 --> 00:35:04.885
you know,

00:35:05.726 --> 00:35:07.947
like I don't I don't I don't even

00:35:08.027 --> 00:35:10.369
think it's like it's not about like it's

00:35:10.429 --> 00:35:12.132
not equal or giving some people like

00:35:12.172 --> 00:35:13.733
special, special access.

00:35:13.773 --> 00:35:14.514
It's like, no,

00:35:14.574 --> 00:35:16.436
we need to just make the table bigger.

00:35:16.496 --> 00:35:17.697
And if that means we need to invite

00:35:17.737 --> 00:35:18.657
people to the table,

00:35:19.077 --> 00:35:21.059
like the white guys are going to come

00:35:21.079 --> 00:35:22.661
to the table like they are.

00:35:22.802 --> 00:35:25.543
They're just gonna because they're like

00:35:25.644 --> 00:35:27.666
that's that's their their

00:35:28.347 --> 00:35:30.248
perspective that's their their privilege

00:35:30.268 --> 00:35:31.570
that they've lived with their whole lives

00:35:31.590 --> 00:35:32.550
they just know that they can go out

00:35:32.570 --> 00:35:35.653
and do things and it's harder when there's

00:35:35.755 --> 00:35:37.817
not an actual invitation like no you can

00:35:37.936 --> 00:35:39.297
you can come to the table too and

00:35:39.478 --> 00:35:41.559
we like you are welcome at this table

00:35:41.579 --> 00:35:42.942
like we don't want it to just be

00:35:43.782 --> 00:35:45.945
a bunch of white dudes at a conference

00:35:46.025 --> 00:35:48.206
at a event like anything yeah

00:35:49.286 --> 00:35:50.447
I know.

00:35:50.507 --> 00:35:50.668
I know.

00:35:50.708 --> 00:35:52.170
I don't want to fall under any like

00:35:52.190 --> 00:35:52.969
stereotype stuff.

00:35:53.010 --> 00:35:53.951
But no, I totally agree.

00:35:53.971 --> 00:35:56.193
And I mean,

00:35:56.253 --> 00:35:58.175
that's how inclusivity like starts, right?

00:35:58.434 --> 00:36:00.516
Inclusivity doesn't mean like doors open,

00:36:00.536 --> 00:36:01.777
you can enter because no one's gonna come

00:36:01.838 --> 00:36:01.918
in.

00:36:01.938 --> 00:36:03.059
Yeah, right.

00:36:03.079 --> 00:36:04.440
It's more of a we have to go

00:36:04.500 --> 00:36:05.199
to them.

00:36:05.219 --> 00:36:05.721
That makes sense.

00:36:06.516 --> 00:36:07.115
Yeah.

00:36:07.396 --> 00:36:07.577
Yeah,

00:36:08.697 --> 00:36:11.679
I think one of my first posts that

00:36:11.798 --> 00:36:12.619
I, when I moved,

00:36:13.159 --> 00:36:14.820
when I went to Blue Sky,

00:36:14.900 --> 00:36:16.141
I have it as a pinned post.

00:36:17.001 --> 00:36:18.003
One of the first things that I,

00:36:18.302 --> 00:36:20.643
I don't know if you bloot or bleat,

00:36:20.804 --> 00:36:22.385
or I don't know what the right word

00:36:22.425 --> 00:36:23.666
for posting on Blue Sky is.

00:36:26.208 --> 00:36:26.608
Bleeding.

00:36:26.648 --> 00:36:26.887
Bleeding.

00:36:26.907 --> 00:36:27.188
Yeah, sure.

00:36:27.228 --> 00:36:27.949
Definitely bleeding.

00:36:30.389 --> 00:36:31.050
Um, um,

00:36:31.110 --> 00:36:32.190
one of the first things that I,

00:36:32.289 --> 00:36:35.449
that I posted was, um, was about like,

00:36:35.489 --> 00:36:37.030
you know, things that were happening and,

00:36:37.210 --> 00:36:40.150
and, and the discourse in, uh,

00:36:40.170 --> 00:36:40.831
the United States.

00:36:40.851 --> 00:36:43.072
And I was just saying like, you know,

00:36:43.152 --> 00:36:46.952
inclusivity is not about people taking

00:36:46.992 --> 00:36:48.092
your piece of the pie.

00:36:48.552 --> 00:36:50.293
It's about saying, Hey everyone,

00:36:50.434 --> 00:36:51.454
there's pie here.

00:36:51.534 --> 00:36:52.594
Do you want some?

00:36:52.673 --> 00:36:54.775
Yeah.

00:36:54.815 --> 00:36:55.735
Share the pie.

00:36:55.775 --> 00:36:56.474
Yeah, exactly.

00:36:58.342 --> 00:37:00.003
I share and actually invite people into

00:37:00.063 --> 00:37:00.985
eating the pie with you.

00:37:01.144 --> 00:37:02.465
It's not just about saying, you know,

00:37:02.485 --> 00:37:03.646
putting a sign up there that says,

00:37:03.666 --> 00:37:05.048
and if you need more pie,

00:37:05.068 --> 00:37:06.309
you can make more pie.

00:37:06.329 --> 00:37:07.411
It's not like there's people that are

00:37:07.431 --> 00:37:08.192
going to take your pie.

00:37:08.211 --> 00:37:08.431
Yeah, yeah.

00:37:11.114 --> 00:37:11.394
I don't know.

00:37:11.494 --> 00:37:11.855
Fear.

00:37:11.934 --> 00:37:13.257
Fear is a big topic.

00:37:13.396 --> 00:37:14.557
I think we could talk about fear for

00:37:14.577 --> 00:37:15.639
like ten different podcasts,

00:37:15.679 --> 00:37:17.981
but fear really gets everyone back on

00:37:18.101 --> 00:37:19.543
everything at the end of the day.

00:37:19.563 --> 00:37:20.043
Yeah.

00:37:20.182 --> 00:37:20.943
Yeah.

00:37:20.983 --> 00:37:21.704
Fear and comfort.

00:37:21.905 --> 00:37:22.846
I guess they go hand in hand.

00:37:23.447 --> 00:37:24.547
Yeah.

00:37:24.568 --> 00:37:24.708
Well,

00:37:24.728 --> 00:37:27.170
I did save some time because I definitely

00:37:27.210 --> 00:37:28.411
want to talk about cats.

00:37:28.893 --> 00:37:31.275
Yes.

00:37:31.516 --> 00:37:31.576
Yes.

00:37:31.596 --> 00:37:32.157
So you go first.

00:37:32.456 --> 00:37:33.217
Tell me about your cats.

00:37:34.244 --> 00:37:35.324
Um, well, I, I wanted to,

00:37:35.445 --> 00:37:36.867
I wanted to, cause I, I still,

00:37:37.146 --> 00:37:39.228
I still like, uh, so we talked, uh,

00:37:39.309 --> 00:37:41.652
previously about, um,

00:37:41.711 --> 00:37:43.713
like you take your cat camping, uh,

00:37:43.813 --> 00:37:45.496
and I think that's awesome.

00:37:45.835 --> 00:37:47.358
I would like a camping cat.

00:37:47.978 --> 00:37:48.117
Um,

00:37:48.159 --> 00:37:49.340
I also think that you're a little bit

00:37:49.380 --> 00:37:51.322
spoiled because you can just like take,

00:37:51.561 --> 00:37:51.702
uh,

00:37:51.722 --> 00:37:53.403
you can just go to a beach in

00:37:53.463 --> 00:37:54.744
Greece on an Island and,

00:37:54.864 --> 00:37:57.148
and then kind of be remote.

00:37:58.369 --> 00:38:03.233
But talk about the story of how you

00:38:03.813 --> 00:38:07.456
first took your cat on a camping trip.

00:38:07.992 --> 00:38:09.813
and how that's worked since.

00:38:11.693 --> 00:38:15.114
I see videos every once in a while

00:38:15.134 --> 00:38:16.335
of people who have taken their cats

00:38:16.414 --> 00:38:18.916
camping or taken their cats to the beach

00:38:18.996 --> 00:38:19.235
even,

00:38:20.155 --> 00:38:24.518
but most people assume that cats and

00:38:24.557 --> 00:38:26.677
beaches and camping are not a thing that

00:38:26.697 --> 00:38:26.998
you do.

00:38:27.099 --> 00:38:28.639
Dogs and camping seem fine,

00:38:28.679 --> 00:38:30.860
but cats and camping always seems weird.

00:38:32.121 --> 00:38:33.784
don't know okay i'll give you the story

00:38:33.824 --> 00:38:35.644
before that david abella one of our most

00:38:35.704 --> 00:38:38.108
recent partners uh him and his wife were

00:38:38.367 --> 00:38:41.010
totally shocked when they went out to the

00:38:41.050 --> 00:38:45.813
rockies and they saw more cats than dogs

00:38:45.835 --> 00:38:47.235
sure they were leashed which i don't know

00:38:47.295 --> 00:38:48.556
how i feel about like a leashed cat

00:38:48.577 --> 00:38:50.177
but my cat was like a crazy cat

00:38:50.217 --> 00:38:51.699
that was i don't know some family that

00:38:51.719 --> 00:38:53.742
couldn't handle him uh they ended up

00:38:53.782 --> 00:38:55.202
finding some vet that was going to

00:38:55.282 --> 00:38:56.664
euthanize him for being uh

00:38:57.844 --> 00:38:58.684
too aggressive.

00:38:58.724 --> 00:38:59.925
The cat wasn't aggressive.

00:38:59.965 --> 00:39:01.027
And I picked up on it through the

00:39:01.106 --> 00:39:03.570
animal welfare volunteering that I do.

00:39:03.929 --> 00:39:05.132
And I said, no, I'm taking this cat.

00:39:05.152 --> 00:39:07.554
So I basically stole the cat.

00:39:07.693 --> 00:39:09.175
Yeah, I basically stole the cat.

00:39:10.097 --> 00:39:11.757
And there were some legal implications for

00:39:11.818 --> 00:39:13.960
the veterinary in question,

00:39:14.041 --> 00:39:15.362
which that's how it should have been.

00:39:15.581 --> 00:39:16.003
But anyway,

00:39:17.083 --> 00:39:18.664
it all came down to necessity at the

00:39:18.704 --> 00:39:19.206
end of the day.

00:39:19.266 --> 00:39:20.327
I couldn't find someone to take care of

00:39:20.347 --> 00:39:20.646
my cat.

00:39:21.407 --> 00:39:24.670
uh he had gotten much better like behavior

00:39:24.731 --> 00:39:28.634
wise the first year or two actually were

00:39:28.693 --> 00:39:32.297
very difficult but uh we ended up going

00:39:32.336 --> 00:39:34.938
to camping and i figured it'd be okay

00:39:35.458 --> 00:39:37.221
i don't know there's always risk

00:39:38.590 --> 00:39:39.672
Because he's not a leash cat.

00:39:39.972 --> 00:39:40.932
You can't put a leash on him.

00:39:41.012 --> 00:39:42.755
I tried during like the first days or

00:39:42.775 --> 00:39:45.077
the first weeks maybe of COVID when they

00:39:45.097 --> 00:39:46.338
said we can go out if we're taking

00:39:46.378 --> 00:39:47.880
our pet out.

00:39:47.960 --> 00:39:49.503
That didn't go well for the leash or

00:39:49.543 --> 00:39:50.023
for the cat.

00:39:53.106 --> 00:39:54.409
But I just got to the island.

00:39:54.509 --> 00:39:55.831
I let the cat out and I was

00:39:55.871 --> 00:39:56.110
dumb.

00:39:57.331 --> 00:39:58.534
It took a long time to get there.

00:39:58.914 --> 00:40:00.356
And I felt bad for the cat.

00:40:00.396 --> 00:40:01.538
So I was like, okay, cool.

00:40:02.038 --> 00:40:03.400
Now that we took this tiny little boat

00:40:03.420 --> 00:40:05.302
to get to Kato Kufonisi,

00:40:05.342 --> 00:40:06.884
it's down Kufonisi.

00:40:07.425 --> 00:40:08.485
I thought it'd be a good idea to

00:40:08.505 --> 00:40:10.708
take him out as soon as, you know,

00:40:10.809 --> 00:40:11.110
I could.

00:40:12.090 --> 00:40:13.833
Rather than finding a spot to, you know,

00:40:13.853 --> 00:40:14.293
make cap.

00:40:15.003 --> 00:40:16.945
and then be like, here, this is home.

00:40:17.965 --> 00:40:18.806
Dumbest idea ever.

00:40:18.827 --> 00:40:19.646
The cat freaked out.

00:40:19.748 --> 00:40:20.447
He saw the water.

00:40:21.548 --> 00:40:23.251
There was like a whoosh of the wave,

00:40:23.371 --> 00:40:25.313
and he just ran up this side of

00:40:25.373 --> 00:40:26.994
this really steep hill.

00:40:27.514 --> 00:40:28.596
And I tried getting him down,

00:40:28.695 --> 00:40:30.097
but eventually I was going to either

00:40:30.958 --> 00:40:32.699
maybe get the cat down and have like

00:40:33.141 --> 00:40:34.623
hurt myself severely.

00:40:35.784 --> 00:40:36.505
And I don't know,

00:40:36.545 --> 00:40:37.306
I had to abandon it.

00:40:37.326 --> 00:40:38.827
So I kind of slept close there.

00:40:38.947 --> 00:40:40.570
I made camp somewhere further back and I

00:40:40.610 --> 00:40:41.891
slept close to that area.

00:40:43.554 --> 00:40:44.635
And I went for it in the morning

00:40:44.795 --> 00:40:46.637
and I was basically just, you know,

00:40:46.657 --> 00:40:48.039
climbing the side of this really steep

00:40:48.079 --> 00:40:48.239
hill.

00:40:49.201 --> 00:40:50.681
with a can of tuna in my hand

00:40:50.722 --> 00:40:52.282
to get the cat down.

00:40:52.822 --> 00:40:53.342
And fortunately,

00:40:53.382 --> 00:40:54.623
I did get the cat down and everything

00:40:54.643 --> 00:40:54.983
went well.

00:40:56.443 --> 00:40:57.005
Since then,

00:40:57.065 --> 00:40:59.206
the second time was kind of difficult.

00:40:59.246 --> 00:41:00.326
We went to Donusa,

00:41:00.346 --> 00:41:02.786
which is an island that's conquered by

00:41:02.827 --> 00:41:03.166
cats.

00:41:03.228 --> 00:41:04.387
There are countless cats there.

00:41:04.788 --> 00:41:06.889
And my cat's kind of fighter slash killer.

00:41:07.369 --> 00:41:08.530
So he didn't have a great time there.

00:41:08.670 --> 00:41:11.110
Anafi was the island that he kind of

00:41:11.231 --> 00:41:11.530
loved.

00:41:11.731 --> 00:41:14.373
And even if he's been three times to

00:41:14.413 --> 00:41:14.773
Anafi,

00:41:16.213 --> 00:41:17.414
When I take him out on that one

00:41:17.454 --> 00:41:18.813
particular beach that I camp on,

00:41:19.534 --> 00:41:20.315
he's like, all right, cool.

00:41:20.614 --> 00:41:21.375
I know where I am.

00:41:21.594 --> 00:41:22.195
I hate you.

00:41:22.295 --> 00:41:23.255
I don't know why you do this to

00:41:23.315 --> 00:41:23.516
me.

00:41:23.675 --> 00:41:24.516
I don't belong here.

00:41:24.795 --> 00:41:25.836
Why are you taking me here?

00:41:25.876 --> 00:41:26.217
Fine.

00:41:26.637 --> 00:41:27.416
Screw yourself.

00:41:27.878 --> 00:41:29.318
But he's like, okay, cool.

00:41:29.378 --> 00:41:29.697
I'm good.

00:41:30.077 --> 00:41:31.838
And since then, like this year,

00:41:31.878 --> 00:41:32.998
we went to Ravavos,

00:41:33.159 --> 00:41:36.320
which is the most southern point in

00:41:36.400 --> 00:41:36.721
Europe.

00:41:37.501 --> 00:41:38.340
It's this island,

00:41:39.262 --> 00:41:41.422
maybe two and a half hours from Crete.

00:41:43.143 --> 00:41:45.744
uh everything was fine actually he's kind

00:41:45.764 --> 00:41:47.586
of getting older too and he's got fiv

00:41:47.726 --> 00:41:50.628
uh he's got the feline leukemia and he's

00:41:50.648 --> 00:41:54.472
got the uh it's another autoimmune disease

00:41:54.813 --> 00:41:58.436
the gingivostomatitis is that how you say

00:41:58.456 --> 00:42:00.016
it i don't know it's another feline one

00:42:00.456 --> 00:42:02.599
that really messes with him uh so he's

00:42:02.619 --> 00:42:04.059
a lot calmer because of all that i

00:42:04.099 --> 00:42:06.442
guess too and the drug but uh he

00:42:06.481 --> 00:42:08.364
would just stick around the tent and

00:42:08.643 --> 00:42:09.684
basically be a guard dog

00:42:11.603 --> 00:42:11.864
So,

00:42:12.043 --> 00:42:14.045
so basically what I'm hearing is immersion

00:42:14.085 --> 00:42:17.628
therapy, like kind of just did it.

00:42:18.188 --> 00:42:18.608
And then,

00:42:18.748 --> 00:42:20.670
and then he eventually figured it out.

00:42:21.291 --> 00:42:22.210
No, totally organic.

00:42:22.291 --> 00:42:22.530
Totally.

00:42:22.811 --> 00:42:23.751
I did see some other cats.

00:42:23.771 --> 00:42:25.193
Like there was this girl on the,

00:42:25.673 --> 00:42:25.893
on the,

00:42:26.233 --> 00:42:28.655
on the boat on our way back to

00:42:28.755 --> 00:42:30.197
Athens and she had her cat,

00:42:30.217 --> 00:42:31.777
she was sleeping and she had her cat

00:42:31.858 --> 00:42:33.958
out of the crate on her chest while

00:42:33.978 --> 00:42:34.579
she was sleeping.

00:42:35.300 --> 00:42:36.221
And I was thinking, wow,

00:42:36.260 --> 00:42:38.282
like on the boat,

00:42:38.722 --> 00:42:40.003
not even on a beach or anything on

00:42:40.043 --> 00:42:40.324
the boat.

00:42:41.242 --> 00:42:42.563
And I did meet another person.

00:42:42.764 --> 00:42:43.684
I just remember this too.

00:42:43.764 --> 00:42:45.047
I did meet another person that had a

00:42:45.106 --> 00:42:47.469
cat that brought the cat with them.

00:42:47.528 --> 00:42:48.750
It wasn't a cat that was at the

00:42:48.909 --> 00:42:50.972
island of Gavdos for camping.

00:42:51.012 --> 00:42:53.875
So it kind of works sometimes, I guess.

00:42:53.894 --> 00:42:55.016
There's something that you mentioned in

00:42:55.036 --> 00:42:57.277
there that I wanted to pull out a

00:42:57.297 --> 00:42:59.320
little bit is like you did some animal

00:42:59.780 --> 00:43:02.963
sort of rescue kind of stuff or animal

00:43:03.083 --> 00:43:03.884
advocacy kind of thing.

00:43:03.923 --> 00:43:04.664
Like, tell me about that.

00:43:05.394 --> 00:43:06.016
I haven't stopped.

00:43:06.576 --> 00:43:08.157
I did distance myself at some point.

00:43:08.197 --> 00:43:09.577
I haven't stopped since I got my first

00:43:09.617 --> 00:43:09.958
dog.

00:43:10.259 --> 00:43:12.840
And that's like, fuck.

00:43:14.561 --> 00:43:15.902
Since twenty twelve,

00:43:15.963 --> 00:43:17.925
I think when I started working at Codex

00:43:18.025 --> 00:43:19.927
and some office down in Athens,

00:43:20.987 --> 00:43:23.509
my first dog was a rescue and my

00:43:23.628 --> 00:43:24.570
all my cats are rescues.

00:43:27.081 --> 00:43:27.382
I don't know.

00:43:27.601 --> 00:43:29.342
Okay, so rescuing and everything.

00:43:29.782 --> 00:43:32.103
Some weird stuff happens in the world of

00:43:32.264 --> 00:43:33.143
animals and humans.

00:43:33.204 --> 00:43:35.224
Some really messed up shit, though.

00:43:35.324 --> 00:43:36.625
I mean, even down to rape.

00:43:37.125 --> 00:43:37.846
And at some point,

00:43:37.925 --> 00:43:38.965
I had to distance myself.

00:43:39.405 --> 00:43:41.706
Like humans raping animals.

00:43:41.746 --> 00:43:44.148
Sometimes I had to distance myself at some

00:43:44.188 --> 00:43:46.248
point because Greek law at that point was

00:43:46.349 --> 00:43:48.889
not sufficient enough to punish cases like

00:43:48.929 --> 00:43:49.108
that.

00:43:49.128 --> 00:43:50.190
And we had a case like that.

00:43:50.650 --> 00:43:51.369
And unfortunately,

00:43:51.409 --> 00:43:53.030
the case got into the hands of the...

00:43:54.400 --> 00:43:56.320
Boys and girls in the animal welfare

00:43:56.721 --> 00:43:58.481
group, which because, you know,

00:43:58.501 --> 00:43:59.740
the courts didn't do much at all other

00:43:59.760 --> 00:44:01.641
than a three grand fine.

00:44:03.101 --> 00:44:05.242
The law has been changed since not so

00:44:05.282 --> 00:44:06.443
long ago, maybe two years ago.

00:44:06.543 --> 00:44:07.603
Now, at least fines,

00:44:07.623 --> 00:44:10.063
they stack and there is potential prison

00:44:10.083 --> 00:44:10.324
time.

00:44:10.724 --> 00:44:12.023
Back then it was kind of whatever you

00:44:12.043 --> 00:44:12.244
did.

00:44:12.304 --> 00:44:12.704
Oh, fine.

00:44:12.744 --> 00:44:14.045
You get a three grand fine and you're

00:44:14.065 --> 00:44:14.445
off the hook.

00:44:14.804 --> 00:44:16.445
That didn't work for the people of the

00:44:16.626 --> 00:44:17.365
animal society,

00:44:17.505 --> 00:44:19.346
the animal rescue society or whatever you

00:44:19.365 --> 00:44:19.565
want.

00:44:20.085 --> 00:44:22.007
And it turned into violence like

00:44:24.610 --> 00:44:25.512
individual violence.

00:44:25.731 --> 00:44:27.351
And I had to distance myself at that

00:44:27.391 --> 00:44:27.652
point.

00:44:28.112 --> 00:44:29.373
But sooner or later,

00:44:29.592 --> 00:44:31.614
I would find a cat and I would

00:44:31.653 --> 00:44:31.934
keep it.

00:44:32.235 --> 00:44:32.735
That's Duke.

00:44:32.914 --> 00:44:33.635
That's my biggest one.

00:44:34.195 --> 00:44:35.335
There was another one, Maisie.

00:44:35.376 --> 00:44:36.456
She's a total ditz.

00:44:36.695 --> 00:44:37.617
She's my partner's cat.

00:44:39.157 --> 00:44:39.577
My partner,

00:44:39.597 --> 00:44:40.717
she found her outside of my house,

00:44:40.737 --> 00:44:42.079
which was totally my fault because I

00:44:42.139 --> 00:44:43.659
removed her from the bakery.

00:44:44.500 --> 00:44:45.639
It was across the street from my house

00:44:45.659 --> 00:44:47.061
because they had issues with the cat twice

00:44:47.081 --> 00:44:49.121
in the same day and put it in

00:44:49.161 --> 00:44:49.882
near my apartment.

00:44:51.222 --> 00:44:53.005
you know before we can contact people to

00:44:53.164 --> 00:44:54.465
see if someone can take the cat and

00:44:54.485 --> 00:44:57.027
take care of it uh i ended up

00:44:57.427 --> 00:44:59.469
not being at home the time my partner

00:44:59.489 --> 00:45:01.811
she returned home and she just called me

00:45:01.831 --> 00:45:03.914
and she's like i found this wonderful cat

00:45:03.934 --> 00:45:06.315
downstairs and i brought it upstairs and

00:45:06.356 --> 00:45:08.637
i'm thinking oh hang on what color is

00:45:08.679 --> 00:45:11.320
the cat and she says white and orange

00:45:11.340 --> 00:45:12.382
and i was like i know the cat

00:45:15.139 --> 00:45:16.039
And she would ask, too,

00:45:16.298 --> 00:45:16.800
could we keep it?

00:45:16.820 --> 00:45:17.300
Could we keep it?

00:45:17.320 --> 00:45:18.019
And I said, well,

00:45:18.059 --> 00:45:20.981
it's already in the house.

00:45:21.101 --> 00:45:22.360
Once it's in the house,

00:45:22.380 --> 00:45:23.362
you can't kick it out.

00:45:23.422 --> 00:45:23.882
I know.

00:45:24.001 --> 00:45:24.322
I know.

00:45:24.382 --> 00:45:25.521
It's a law of nature.

00:45:25.561 --> 00:45:28.202
The cat distribution system itself never

00:45:28.262 --> 00:45:28.762
fails.

00:45:29.583 --> 00:45:31.023
I don't know if she understood the concept

00:45:31.043 --> 00:45:32.063
when I said it's in the house.

00:45:32.164 --> 00:45:33.545
I think she thought that maybe we can

00:45:33.644 --> 00:45:34.425
put it back outside.

00:45:34.445 --> 00:45:36.606
And I said, it's not a thing now.

00:45:36.706 --> 00:45:39.025
Now it's our cat.

00:45:39.206 --> 00:45:41.166
And now I've got two other blind ones.

00:45:41.387 --> 00:45:42.387
One has one eye.

00:45:42.606 --> 00:45:43.487
It's kind of a pirate.

00:45:43.527 --> 00:45:44.168
Her name is Lala.

00:45:44.967 --> 00:45:46.690
And her brother Mimi has no eyes.

00:45:46.909 --> 00:45:47.449
He's blind.

00:45:48.010 --> 00:45:49.711
And he's the first blind animal I've ever

00:45:49.751 --> 00:45:50.251
had, actually.

00:45:50.331 --> 00:45:51.532
But they do everything.

00:45:52.072 --> 00:45:53.114
He literally goes around.

00:45:53.554 --> 00:45:55.315
So one of the bathrooms is relatively old

00:45:55.335 --> 00:45:56.096
in the house.

00:45:56.637 --> 00:45:59.077
And it's got like those external pipes for

00:46:00.918 --> 00:46:02.501
water plumbing going around.

00:46:02.740 --> 00:46:04.442
He goes and climbs on those tiny little

00:46:04.661 --> 00:46:06.483
pipes that are like nailed to the wall.

00:46:06.724 --> 00:46:07.983
And I'm thinking, how can you do this?

00:46:08.003 --> 00:46:08.724
You don't have eyes.

00:46:10.706 --> 00:46:12.668
How did you get involved in animal rescue,

00:46:12.688 --> 00:46:12.887
though?

00:46:14.266 --> 00:46:15.545
I got a dog.

00:46:20.114 --> 00:46:20.574
You just got a dog.

00:46:20.594 --> 00:46:21.373
You just rescued a dog.

00:46:21.393 --> 00:46:23.135
Yeah, it just kind of happened.

00:46:23.175 --> 00:46:24.635
I'm a total softie for these things.

00:46:24.715 --> 00:46:25.536
I can't handle it.

00:46:25.695 --> 00:46:27.197
If I ever killed a human,

00:46:27.237 --> 00:46:28.938
it would probably be over something like

00:46:29.077 --> 00:46:29.777
animal abuse.

00:46:31.318 --> 00:46:32.639
I'm a total softie for that.

00:46:32.719 --> 00:46:33.960
I can't help myself.

00:46:34.420 --> 00:46:36.820
They're so perfect.

00:46:36.860 --> 00:46:37.942
Literally, that's how I started.

00:46:38.001 --> 00:46:39.302
No fun story or anything.

00:46:39.463 --> 00:46:40.302
No family.

00:46:40.483 --> 00:46:41.443
We didn't have pets.

00:46:41.804 --> 00:46:43.945
I was raised with strictly birds.

00:46:46.034 --> 00:46:49.516
and nothing more I didn't have pets until

00:46:49.596 --> 00:46:54.077
I was early teens and then we my

00:46:54.157 --> 00:46:57.760
stepmom's sister was breeding Yorkshire

00:46:57.800 --> 00:47:01.342
Terriers and so we got one of her

00:47:01.461 --> 00:47:05.003
Yorkie pups and then I had a dog

00:47:06.043 --> 00:47:10.246
from zero to from zero pets basically to

00:47:10.346 --> 00:47:12.367
dog and

00:47:13.867 --> 00:47:15.929
yeah that was that was good he was

00:47:15.969 --> 00:47:19.891
cool uh his name is pirate um and

00:47:19.911 --> 00:47:21.132
uh because that was the name of the

00:47:21.172 --> 00:47:22.873
game that we played it was sort of

00:47:22.893 --> 00:47:24.114
like a white elephant like everybody

00:47:24.153 --> 00:47:25.715
brings a present and then you can steal

00:47:25.735 --> 00:47:27.275
the present but like we called it pirate

00:47:27.876 --> 00:47:29.996
um and he was a pirate gift that

00:47:30.056 --> 00:47:31.498
nobody else wanted to steal from me

00:47:34.271 --> 00:47:38.155
So he was named Tiger.

00:47:38.275 --> 00:47:40.777
And then nothing until after I graduated

00:47:40.996 --> 00:47:43.077
and my partner got a job at the

00:47:43.097 --> 00:47:45.480
Humane Society of Utah.

00:47:45.679 --> 00:47:47.181
And she was in receiving,

00:47:47.221 --> 00:47:48.862
which is where all of the surrendered

00:47:48.922 --> 00:47:49.583
animals go.

00:47:50.043 --> 00:47:51.043
And then there's a whole,

00:47:51.244 --> 00:47:53.144
in a shelter like that,

00:47:53.164 --> 00:47:55.306
there's a whole evaluation process that

00:47:55.427 --> 00:47:56.688
kind of boils down to,

00:47:56.768 --> 00:47:59.130
do we think this animal will be adoptable?

00:48:00.110 --> 00:48:00.650
Because...

00:48:01.809 --> 00:48:04.672
they get more animals surrendered than the

00:48:04.692 --> 00:48:06.594
number of animals they're able to adopt

00:48:06.693 --> 00:48:06.853
out.

00:48:08.795 --> 00:48:10.878
And there are no kill shelters in Utah.

00:48:11.599 --> 00:48:15.101
The Humane Society would like to be one,

00:48:15.143 --> 00:48:17.224
but they just don't have the capacity.

00:48:19.117 --> 00:48:20.757
So they do need to, like,

00:48:20.797 --> 00:48:21.898
make EARNA calls,

00:48:22.018 --> 00:48:24.338
and that was always kind of awful.

00:48:25.199 --> 00:48:26.599
She eventually moved into adoptions,

00:48:26.619 --> 00:48:27.980
and then she moved into the vet clinic,

00:48:28.920 --> 00:48:30.101
and those were much better.

00:48:31.081 --> 00:48:32.981
But obviously, through this process,

00:48:33.021 --> 00:48:34.722
we're, like, taking animals home,

00:48:35.722 --> 00:48:36.461
learning about, like,

00:48:36.501 --> 00:48:37.882
how the difference between, like,

00:48:37.922 --> 00:48:38.103
you know,

00:48:38.123 --> 00:48:39.623
an animal that doesn't do well in the

00:48:39.643 --> 00:48:40.963
shelter, that doesn't necessarily mean,

00:48:41.003 --> 00:48:42.003
like, your experience, like...

00:48:42.943 --> 00:48:44.585
it doesn't necessarily mean that they are

00:48:44.625 --> 00:48:45.025
aggressive.

00:48:45.065 --> 00:48:46.626
It just means that they aren't doing well

00:48:46.706 --> 00:48:47.326
in the shelter.

00:48:47.405 --> 00:48:48.586
Like this is a really stressful

00:48:48.626 --> 00:48:49.126
environment.

00:48:49.306 --> 00:48:50.047
And maybe this,

00:48:50.086 --> 00:48:51.507
this animal is a little bit more sensitive

00:48:51.547 --> 00:48:51.987
to that.

00:48:52.128 --> 00:48:53.809
And for humans,

00:48:53.889 --> 00:48:55.489
humans would act the same way.

00:48:55.670 --> 00:48:56.190
Exactly.

00:48:56.369 --> 00:48:56.849
Exactly.

00:48:57.771 --> 00:49:00.411
Um, so yeah, um, that's always been a,

00:49:00.612 --> 00:49:01.851
and so all of our cats have been

00:49:01.952 --> 00:49:03.092
either, um,

00:49:04.364 --> 00:49:06.184
quasi rescued like rescued from the

00:49:06.204 --> 00:49:10.268
shelter um or uh or they came from

00:49:10.327 --> 00:49:13.670
like an actual uh animal rescue uh and

00:49:13.710 --> 00:49:17.413
we currently have three um and our oldest

00:49:17.972 --> 00:49:20.635
has cancer but she's had cancer for like

00:49:20.954 --> 00:49:25.597
two or three years that's the thing about

00:49:25.637 --> 00:49:26.878
cats man they could be they could have

00:49:26.898 --> 00:49:28.880
like five three different uh autoimmune

00:49:28.900 --> 00:49:31.061
diseases duke and he's still a fighter and

00:49:31.081 --> 00:49:32.943
a camper literally yeah yeah yeah

00:49:34.364 --> 00:49:36.284
yeah and she's the sweetest thing she's my

00:49:36.344 --> 00:49:39.146
daughter's cat um she's she's like the

00:49:39.226 --> 00:49:44.007
most empathetic animal like she like in in

00:49:44.027 --> 00:49:48.708
the world um and so cute too cute

00:49:48.728 --> 00:49:50.128
but we can talk about cats all day

00:49:50.309 --> 00:49:51.949
we probably would talk about cats all day

00:49:52.389 --> 00:49:54.809
this isn't necessarily a cat podcast i

00:49:54.829 --> 00:49:56.391
mean it could be a cat podcast it'll

00:49:56.411 --> 00:49:59.771
be a different podcast but you have a

00:49:59.811 --> 00:50:00.751
podcast too don't you

00:50:01.530 --> 00:50:02.550
I do.

00:50:02.570 --> 00:50:04.251
I started Uncashed with Presidium.

00:50:04.271 --> 00:50:05.853
We only have one episode with Kareem

00:50:05.913 --> 00:50:06.512
talking about FAIR,

00:50:06.552 --> 00:50:08.193
but the context is kind of hard to

00:50:08.215 --> 00:50:08.695
find people.

00:50:09.074 --> 00:50:11.817
So you have to identify a problem in

00:50:11.856 --> 00:50:13.257
and around the WordPress ecosystem,

00:50:13.297 --> 00:50:14.458
and you have to be relative to the

00:50:14.498 --> 00:50:16.599
solution of the problem to be on the

00:50:16.619 --> 00:50:16.840
show.

00:50:17.280 --> 00:50:18.481
I hope it doesn't get stuck at Kareem.

00:50:19.161 --> 00:50:19.902
Good show, Kareem.

00:50:20.483 --> 00:50:22.023
And then there's an interviewee one,

00:50:22.063 --> 00:50:22.684
kind of like this one.

00:50:22.744 --> 00:50:23.804
Get another person behind the tech.

00:50:24.045 --> 00:50:25.206
I call it a three-queue interview.

00:50:25.226 --> 00:50:26.887
I probably have to change the title

00:50:26.907 --> 00:50:27.927
because it was supposed to be three

00:50:27.947 --> 00:50:28.507
questions,

00:50:29.047 --> 00:50:30.568
and now it's about thirty to forty-five

00:50:30.588 --> 00:50:31.030
minutes long.

00:50:32.291 --> 00:50:33.771
It just kind of evolved.

00:50:35.052 --> 00:50:35.893
That's how it works.

00:50:35.914 --> 00:50:37.594
That's why I don't make rules for myself.

00:50:38.516 --> 00:50:39.416
Yeah, I'm learning.

00:50:41.219 --> 00:50:43.039
I'm learning.

00:50:43.059 --> 00:50:43.219
Well,

00:50:43.239 --> 00:50:44.842
where can people find you on the internet?

00:50:46.072 --> 00:50:47.592
I guess I can Google Christos Palookas,

00:50:47.672 --> 00:50:49.333
but I mean,

00:50:49.353 --> 00:50:50.653
something would be I'm on Twitter,

00:50:51.275 --> 00:50:52.135
LinkedIn, kind of.

00:50:52.235 --> 00:50:54.056
I did a couple of posts recently.

00:50:54.096 --> 00:50:56.177
Not a huge fan, but Twitter for sure.

00:50:56.496 --> 00:50:57.277
Slash Palookas.

00:51:00.478 --> 00:51:01.619
I don't know where else.

00:51:02.119 --> 00:51:03.119
YouTube, I guess.

00:51:03.239 --> 00:51:04.581
There was like podcast there.

00:51:05.181 --> 00:51:06.242
I have an old podcast.

00:51:06.402 --> 00:51:07.681
version of myself that used to write

00:51:07.722 --> 00:51:10.523
classical music so if you find uh i

00:51:10.563 --> 00:51:12.242
kind of do it sometimes too secretly if

00:51:12.282 --> 00:51:13.923
you find some you i don't even talk

00:51:13.943 --> 00:51:15.204
about this man i don't even know why

00:51:15.264 --> 00:51:17.105
i mentioned this that's a whole other

00:51:17.144 --> 00:51:18.485
podcast we need to get you back and

00:51:18.505 --> 00:51:20.005
we can talk about your classical music

00:51:21.286 --> 00:51:23.646
yeah i abandoned that kind of but if

00:51:23.666 --> 00:51:25.626
you do search christopher lucas you might

00:51:25.646 --> 00:51:27.407
find some songs that's

00:51:29.143 --> 00:51:30.284
Well, thank you so much, Christos,

00:51:30.583 --> 00:51:33.485
for coming on and check out Christos'

00:51:33.545 --> 00:51:35.045
podcast or the one episode.

00:51:36.206 --> 00:51:39.427
And go find him at WordCamp Athens if

00:51:39.447 --> 00:51:41.947
you happen to be in Greece on November

00:51:42.047 --> 00:51:42.266
eighth.

00:51:43.568 --> 00:51:44.807
Thanks again for coming.

00:51:45.168 --> 00:51:46.489
And yeah, we'll see you on the internet.

00:51:46.509 --> 00:51:47.248
Thanks for having me.

00:51:47.268 --> 00:51:47.849
It was a pleasure.

00:51:48.268 --> 00:51:49.688
Hope to host you too.

00:51:49.809 --> 00:51:50.329
Absolutely.

00:51:51.469 --> 00:51:51.969
Take care.