WEBVTT 00:00:18.049 --> 00:00:18.990 about the people, 00:00:19.030 --> 00:00:20.692 the human beings behind the commits. 00:00:21.072 --> 00:00:22.653 I'm here today with Kim Maeda. 00:00:23.134 --> 00:00:24.956 She is a Senior Director of Developer 00:00:24.976 --> 00:00:26.276 Relations at FusionAuth. 00:00:27.217 --> 00:00:28.298 Welcome to the show and tell us a 00:00:28.319 --> 00:00:28.980 little bit about yourself. 00:00:29.888 --> 00:00:30.249 Hey, Chris. 00:00:30.308 --> 00:00:30.730 Thanks. 00:00:31.330 --> 00:00:33.612 And thanks for that introduction. 00:00:33.952 --> 00:00:36.936 I guess, where to start? 00:00:37.457 --> 00:00:39.439 Like you said, 00:00:39.599 --> 00:00:42.361 I've actually been working in identity for 00:00:42.461 --> 00:00:43.062 a little while. 00:00:43.202 --> 00:00:45.364 I've also worked at AuthZero and Okta, 00:00:46.144 --> 00:00:48.788 as well as on DevRel at various other 00:00:49.088 --> 00:00:49.829 startup companies. 00:00:50.168 --> 00:00:50.729 in between. 00:00:51.549 --> 00:00:53.271 And I kind of had always found myself 00:00:53.310 --> 00:00:55.273 gravitating back to identity. 00:00:55.372 --> 00:00:57.634 So I think recently I finally made the 00:00:57.655 --> 00:01:00.195 decision of this is my career. 00:01:00.356 --> 00:01:03.518 I will probably be working in identity for 00:01:03.558 --> 00:01:05.460 the remainder of my career after kind of 00:01:06.301 --> 00:01:08.281 yo-yoing back and forth a bunch from it. 00:01:10.950 --> 00:01:14.652 What is it for you about identity 00:01:15.152 --> 00:01:17.353 management authentication type stuff that 00:01:17.433 --> 00:01:18.695 is interesting? 00:01:18.755 --> 00:01:20.276 I think for me, 00:01:20.396 --> 00:01:22.177 and probably for a lot of developers, 00:01:22.656 --> 00:01:25.078 that's the thing that we want to think 00:01:25.117 --> 00:01:25.918 about the least. 00:01:26.418 --> 00:01:27.379 Yeah. 00:01:27.781 --> 00:01:28.240 Well, 00:01:28.460 --> 00:01:30.763 I like being the person who thinks about 00:01:30.804 --> 00:01:34.647 it so that other people don't have to. 00:01:34.768 --> 00:01:36.388 There are plenty of things like that for 00:01:36.429 --> 00:01:37.751 me, like DevOps. 00:01:37.911 --> 00:01:39.893 I know enough DevOps to be dangerous 00:01:39.912 --> 00:01:41.355 because I had to learn it in order 00:01:41.394 --> 00:01:43.537 to operate my DigitalOcean VPS. 00:01:44.076 --> 00:01:46.278 But it's just really not my thing. 00:01:46.319 --> 00:01:47.319 I'm not good at it. 00:01:47.519 --> 00:01:49.161 I don't retain the information. 00:01:50.040 --> 00:01:53.043 I had found that with identity and access 00:01:53.063 --> 00:01:53.563 management, 00:01:53.884 --> 00:01:57.105 I do actually retain the information. 00:01:57.546 --> 00:02:00.227 I like being a part of critical 00:02:00.328 --> 00:02:00.968 infrastructure. 00:02:01.868 --> 00:02:03.689 Because everybody needs it. 00:02:03.750 --> 00:02:05.311 It's one of those things that no matter 00:02:05.352 --> 00:02:06.533 what language you use, 00:02:06.612 --> 00:02:08.334 no matter what stack you're using, 00:02:08.754 --> 00:02:10.896 at some point you're going to come across 00:02:10.995 --> 00:02:13.918 a need for auth in some way. 00:02:14.597 --> 00:02:16.420 And so, you know, 00:02:16.459 --> 00:02:18.441 some of the other jobs that I've had 00:02:18.480 --> 00:02:19.882 were very specific to, like, 00:02:20.063 --> 00:02:21.804 a certain language or a certain framework. 00:02:22.203 --> 00:02:23.944 And, you know, it was... 00:02:24.926 --> 00:02:26.187 It was a lot of like, 00:02:26.227 --> 00:02:27.448 people love this thing. 00:02:27.487 --> 00:02:28.889 They want to showcase what they've done 00:02:28.909 --> 00:02:29.449 with it. 00:02:30.070 --> 00:02:31.572 And interestingly, 00:02:31.611 --> 00:02:34.294 like when I actually started my DevRel 00:02:34.334 --> 00:02:35.694 career in auth, 00:02:35.955 --> 00:02:37.556 so I hadn't kind of experienced things 00:02:37.637 --> 00:02:38.258 out, 00:02:38.298 --> 00:02:40.258 communities outside of that community 00:02:40.419 --> 00:02:40.919 before. 00:02:41.600 --> 00:02:43.282 And then when I did, I, you know, 00:02:43.361 --> 00:02:44.763 initially I had been like, oh, it'll be, 00:02:44.862 --> 00:02:45.084 you know, 00:02:45.123 --> 00:02:46.604 it'll be awesome because there's, 00:02:47.104 --> 00:02:47.305 you know, 00:02:48.265 --> 00:02:49.486 hundreds of thousands of people are really 00:02:49.526 --> 00:02:50.646 excited about this thing. 00:02:51.388 --> 00:02:52.687 They want to showcase their knowledge. 00:02:53.609 --> 00:02:56.990 And what I found was I just didn't 00:02:57.050 --> 00:03:01.111 find as much like critical meaning in it 00:03:01.412 --> 00:03:02.112 for me. 00:03:03.173 --> 00:03:05.213 Like it was great to help people use 00:03:05.253 --> 00:03:06.875 things they already loved and already 00:03:06.914 --> 00:03:07.555 cared about, 00:03:08.175 --> 00:03:10.276 but that criticality was gone. 00:03:11.657 --> 00:03:14.018 The sort of idea of if you get 00:03:14.057 --> 00:03:15.038 this wrong, 00:03:16.057 --> 00:03:18.338 you will be in big trouble like you 00:03:18.359 --> 00:03:20.400 could potentially have a huge disaster on 00:03:20.419 --> 00:03:22.379 your hands if you get it wrong and 00:03:22.580 --> 00:03:25.920 i think that kind of pressure is something 00:03:25.980 --> 00:03:28.141 that i really enjoy being in a space 00:03:28.181 --> 00:03:32.163 that has that around it because i do 00:03:32.223 --> 00:03:34.003 not think that everybody should become an 00:03:34.084 --> 00:03:36.344 off expert i don't absolutely don't think 00:03:36.384 --> 00:03:38.645 so um i think that because i don't 00:03:38.686 --> 00:03:38.966 want to be 00:03:40.105 --> 00:03:41.067 Most people don't want to be. 00:03:42.486 --> 00:03:43.728 But that's, you know, 00:03:43.747 --> 00:03:45.109 that's why tools exist. 00:03:45.269 --> 00:03:47.288 But also there's, you know, 00:03:47.329 --> 00:03:48.590 certain things that you should probably 00:03:48.629 --> 00:03:51.031 understand in order to be competent. 00:03:51.211 --> 00:03:52.831 And there's a significant difference 00:03:52.872 --> 00:03:55.013 between like knowing everything and 00:03:55.233 --> 00:03:57.454 knowing enough that you're confident that 00:03:57.473 --> 00:03:58.993 what you've done is secure and that you've 00:03:59.014 --> 00:03:59.655 done things right. 00:04:00.634 --> 00:04:02.414 And I like kind of trying to find 00:04:02.536 --> 00:04:05.575 that balance of confidence where people 00:04:05.836 --> 00:04:08.056 can be sure that they can have faith 00:04:08.097 --> 00:04:09.896 in what they've done so that they can 00:04:09.956 --> 00:04:11.758 move on and not have to think about 00:04:11.798 --> 00:04:15.838 it anymore versus, like, 00:04:15.938 --> 00:04:17.118 here's the Oath spec. 00:04:17.179 --> 00:04:18.359 Read it from beginning to end. 00:04:18.419 --> 00:04:18.639 Right. 00:04:18.718 --> 00:04:21.520 Yeah. 00:04:21.539 --> 00:04:23.580 Taking a little bit of a step back, 00:04:23.700 --> 00:04:24.080 I think, 00:04:24.100 --> 00:04:26.381 I want to dig into your history a 00:04:26.401 --> 00:04:28.322 little bit more, but, like, just from, 00:04:28.361 --> 00:04:29.882 like, a big picture, like, 00:04:30.828 --> 00:04:33.049 from the perspective of somebody who maybe 00:04:33.149 --> 00:04:35.350 isn't a developer who like is listening to 00:04:35.389 --> 00:04:37.331 this or who you might just encounter, 00:04:37.571 --> 00:04:37.850 you know, 00:04:38.132 --> 00:04:39.911 wherever at a conference or even just in 00:04:39.951 --> 00:04:42.112 person like in the line of the coffee 00:04:42.132 --> 00:04:42.413 shop, 00:04:42.473 --> 00:04:46.134 like when you talk about what you do 00:04:46.295 --> 00:04:46.855 or what 00:04:47.755 --> 00:04:48.036 like, 00:04:48.216 --> 00:04:52.757 the practice around what you do and talk 00:04:52.778 --> 00:04:55.478 about in your role in developer relations, 00:04:55.838 --> 00:04:59.240 like, how would you break it down to, 00:04:59.279 --> 00:04:59.480 like, 00:04:59.680 --> 00:05:01.641 the explain it to me like I'm five 00:05:01.680 --> 00:05:03.100 sort of prompt, you know? 00:05:03.141 --> 00:05:07.663 Like, what is the high-level, like, 00:05:08.523 --> 00:05:12.524 definition of what it is that you are 00:05:12.785 --> 00:05:13.704 trying to get people to do? 00:05:17.286 --> 00:05:18.887 I guess I think there we unpack that 00:05:18.906 --> 00:05:19.747 a little because I think there were a 00:05:19.786 --> 00:05:21.047 couple of questions in there. 00:05:21.187 --> 00:05:23.728 Probably I have I often do that is 00:05:23.747 --> 00:05:25.928 just like slide five or six more questions 00:05:25.968 --> 00:05:26.848 into one question. 00:05:26.869 --> 00:05:26.949 Yeah. 00:05:26.968 --> 00:05:29.350 Okay, so maybe if we back up, 00:05:29.550 --> 00:05:32.110 I think like the initial question was kind 00:05:32.151 --> 00:05:33.651 of an explain like I'm five. 00:05:33.672 --> 00:05:33.771 Yeah. 00:05:34.572 --> 00:05:35.973 What do I tell people my job is? 00:05:35.992 --> 00:05:36.153 Yeah. 00:05:37.033 --> 00:05:37.252 Yeah. 00:05:38.134 --> 00:05:42.000 So for people who don't like relatives and 00:05:42.180 --> 00:05:44.384 family, friends and people like that, 00:05:44.423 --> 00:05:46.067 I basically say, you know, 00:05:46.086 --> 00:05:48.310 when you get online and you need to 00:05:48.350 --> 00:05:50.312 log in to a website or something like 00:05:50.774 --> 00:05:52.175 that's the service that my company 00:05:52.216 --> 00:05:52.596 provides. 00:05:53.076 --> 00:05:54.398 Yeah, that's fair. 00:05:54.437 --> 00:05:55.639 And then I usually get a bunch of 00:05:55.939 --> 00:05:57.180 questions about, like, 00:05:57.839 --> 00:05:59.321 why does everybody have MFA? 00:06:00.002 --> 00:06:01.423 Like, why do I need this thing? 00:06:02.584 --> 00:06:06.365 But that usually leads to further 00:06:06.666 --> 00:06:08.148 interesting conversations because, 00:06:08.168 --> 00:06:09.267 you know, then you can explain, like, 00:06:09.387 --> 00:06:11.410 why there are, you know, 00:06:11.430 --> 00:06:13.110 these additional security precautions for, 00:06:13.190 --> 00:06:15.673 like, your bank versus, you know, 00:06:16.153 --> 00:06:16.713 I don't know, like, 00:06:16.793 --> 00:06:18.134 making a reservation at a restaurant or 00:06:18.154 --> 00:06:18.615 something like that. 00:06:18.634 --> 00:06:18.735 Right. 00:06:18.754 --> 00:06:19.755 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:06:19.795 --> 00:06:19.875 Yeah. 00:06:21.956 --> 00:06:23.437 Yeah, that's basically what I tell it. 00:06:23.497 --> 00:06:25.038 And then as far as like, 00:06:25.298 --> 00:06:26.678 I usually don't go as far as like 00:06:26.718 --> 00:06:28.579 defining authentication and authorization. 00:06:28.680 --> 00:06:30.081 Most people, like you said, 00:06:30.100 --> 00:06:31.742 like most people aren't really interested 00:06:31.781 --> 00:06:33.482 in that level. 00:06:33.521 --> 00:06:35.483 But, you know, if I do, 00:06:35.824 --> 00:06:37.163 then I basically, you know, 00:06:37.184 --> 00:06:38.504 would say like, 00:06:38.545 --> 00:06:41.286 authentication is proving who you are, 00:06:41.326 --> 00:06:42.127 who you say you are. 00:06:42.266 --> 00:06:43.807 And then authentication is what can you 00:06:43.887 --> 00:06:44.588 actually access? 00:06:44.627 --> 00:06:45.749 Yeah. 00:06:45.788 --> 00:06:47.490 What can you access and do? 00:06:49.108 --> 00:06:50.189 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. 00:06:51.430 --> 00:06:53.031 And you're at FusionAuth, 00:06:53.512 --> 00:06:55.653 and you were formerly at AuthZero and 00:06:55.853 --> 00:06:57.274 Okta, and those are, you know, 00:06:57.475 --> 00:07:00.997 from where I stand in the tech world, 00:07:01.237 --> 00:07:03.540 Okta and AuthZero are kind of pretty big 00:07:03.579 --> 00:07:04.721 players in this space. 00:07:05.560 --> 00:07:07.442 What was interesting to you about 00:07:07.603 --> 00:07:08.863 FusionAuth specifically? 00:07:10.019 --> 00:07:14.024 so i actually joined auth zero when they 00:07:14.144 --> 00:07:16.706 weren't a huge player in the space um 00:07:16.786 --> 00:07:18.687 i think i was like employee number or 00:07:18.747 --> 00:07:22.771 something and i got to experience kind of 00:07:22.790 --> 00:07:27.415 that startup rocket ship phase and that 00:07:27.456 --> 00:07:29.237 was really exciting to me it was it 00:07:29.257 --> 00:07:30.697 was my first time working at a startup 00:07:31.059 --> 00:07:31.838 um and 00:07:32.620 --> 00:07:33.000 it was, 00:07:33.141 --> 00:07:34.742 we were moving fast and we were breaking 00:07:34.762 --> 00:07:36.605 things and we were trying to break into 00:07:36.665 --> 00:07:39.247 like the IM industry to become what they 00:07:39.267 --> 00:07:42.151 have become now, you know, which is, I, 00:07:42.471 --> 00:07:43.913 I think it's awesome that they've 00:07:43.932 --> 00:07:45.074 succeeded to that degree because I 00:07:45.134 --> 00:07:46.755 remember when nobody knew who we were. 00:07:46.776 --> 00:07:47.416 Right. 00:07:48.458 --> 00:07:49.178 while working there. 00:07:50.261 --> 00:07:52.903 And I think that the thing that really 00:07:53.144 --> 00:07:54.547 excited me about FusionAuth, 00:07:54.567 --> 00:07:55.367 there's a couple of things, 00:07:55.408 --> 00:07:57.511 but one being the start, 00:07:57.610 --> 00:07:59.514 I like working at startups and I like 00:07:59.533 --> 00:08:02.336 working at startups that are at roughly 00:08:02.377 --> 00:08:03.579 this stage. 00:08:04.379 --> 00:08:06.502 Because everybody makes a huge impact. 00:08:07.382 --> 00:08:09.324 And that was kind of one of the 00:08:09.365 --> 00:08:11.567 things that going to bigger companies and 00:08:11.586 --> 00:08:13.608 then working at corporations, 00:08:14.528 --> 00:08:16.951 I felt like I could probably make an 00:08:16.971 --> 00:08:17.312 impact, 00:08:17.331 --> 00:08:18.533 but it was going to take me like 00:08:18.572 --> 00:08:20.314 two or three years to do it. 00:08:21.095 --> 00:08:24.858 and at a startup you can really make 00:08:24.918 --> 00:08:27.242 and show that impact quite early and 00:08:27.362 --> 00:08:30.625 everybody can do it like anybody from IC 00:08:30.685 --> 00:08:32.286 all the way up to you know like 00:08:32.367 --> 00:08:35.449 VP can have that impact and show it 00:08:35.470 --> 00:08:37.372 and everybody can recognize it and see and 00:08:37.411 --> 00:08:39.093 you can see what you've done for a 00:08:39.134 --> 00:08:42.156 company and I think that kind of 00:08:43.456 --> 00:08:45.398 More instant gratification is something 00:08:45.418 --> 00:08:47.699 that I really like about working at 00:08:47.800 --> 00:08:48.620 smaller companies. 00:08:50.062 --> 00:08:51.743 And then like why FusionAuth, 00:08:52.344 --> 00:08:54.905 especially after working for other IDaaS 00:08:54.926 --> 00:08:55.505 companies. 00:08:57.048 --> 00:08:58.568 One of the first questions that I asked 00:08:59.029 --> 00:09:02.111 when I was approached about the role was 00:09:02.231 --> 00:09:03.413 what makes FusionAuth different? 00:09:04.234 --> 00:09:07.035 Because I think after Auth Zero got 00:09:07.056 --> 00:09:08.378 acquired for six billion dollars, 00:09:09.038 --> 00:09:10.578 there were a lot of IDaaS companies that 00:09:10.620 --> 00:09:11.000 popped up. 00:09:11.679 --> 00:09:13.321 And there's way more of them now than 00:09:13.360 --> 00:09:15.061 there were when I was at Auth Zero, 00:09:15.100 --> 00:09:15.761 by far. 00:09:16.942 --> 00:09:19.023 And so they all kind of do the 00:09:19.043 --> 00:09:19.423 same thing. 00:09:20.743 --> 00:09:23.964 And so my first question is, 00:09:24.524 --> 00:09:26.044 why FusionAuth? 00:09:26.085 --> 00:09:26.865 Why are we different? 00:09:27.625 --> 00:09:28.485 And really, 00:09:28.566 --> 00:09:30.385 it comes down to we're downloadable. 00:09:31.447 --> 00:09:34.707 And so you can run the FusionAuth 00:09:34.727 --> 00:09:36.388 authorization server as a part of your 00:09:36.408 --> 00:09:37.188 core infrastructure. 00:09:38.149 --> 00:09:40.350 And the advantages you get from this, 00:09:40.890 --> 00:09:43.493 as far as security and the ability to 00:09:43.692 --> 00:09:45.274 own everything and to end, 00:09:45.855 --> 00:09:48.316 are often things that you would... 00:09:50.337 --> 00:09:52.698 When people care deeply about that, 00:09:53.980 --> 00:09:55.441 if FusionAuth didn't exist, 00:09:55.841 --> 00:09:58.202 they'd usually be reaching for open source 00:09:58.243 --> 00:09:58.844 solutions, 00:09:59.063 --> 00:10:00.205 like KeyCoke and that type of thing. 00:10:01.245 --> 00:10:03.087 And I thought it was really interesting 00:10:03.288 --> 00:10:06.972 and differentiated that we do on-prem for 00:10:07.133 --> 00:10:07.494 free. 00:10:08.514 --> 00:10:09.657 If you want to have an on-prem 00:10:09.697 --> 00:10:11.298 conversation with a lot of these SaaS 00:10:11.339 --> 00:10:12.500 companies, that's, you know, 00:10:12.539 --> 00:10:14.663 locked behind a big sales call and it 00:10:14.702 --> 00:10:15.845 will cost a lot of money. 00:10:16.164 --> 00:10:16.525 Right. 00:10:18.062 --> 00:10:18.702 But yeah, 00:10:18.744 --> 00:10:21.446 so we also have like a cloud offering, 00:10:21.625 --> 00:10:23.626 but it's single tenant. 00:10:24.128 --> 00:10:27.269 So the customers who are on the cloud 00:10:27.429 --> 00:10:29.030 don't share infrastructure with the other 00:10:29.051 --> 00:10:29.572 customers. 00:10:30.611 --> 00:10:32.453 So it's dedicated instances, 00:10:32.994 --> 00:10:35.316 which I think is also cool. 00:10:35.495 --> 00:10:36.956 But for myself, 00:10:36.996 --> 00:10:39.399 I'll probably always just download Fusion 00:10:39.639 --> 00:10:41.059 whenever I need to off like into the 00:10:41.080 --> 00:10:41.379 future. 00:10:42.240 --> 00:10:44.221 Because it was one of those things where 00:10:44.643 --> 00:10:48.706 I didn't realize how much I liked that, 00:10:48.785 --> 00:10:50.067 like owning it, 00:10:50.927 --> 00:10:54.110 until I actually had it running on my 00:10:54.350 --> 00:10:54.830 machine. 00:10:55.630 --> 00:10:58.472 And I could put in a config file 00:10:58.493 --> 00:11:00.073 and spin up a new environment really 00:11:00.094 --> 00:11:00.614 quickly. 00:11:00.754 --> 00:11:02.535 I could make changes to the environments 00:11:02.556 --> 00:11:05.618 and do all of this transferring of 00:11:05.878 --> 00:11:07.960 configuration and things like that. 00:11:08.600 --> 00:11:08.779 That... 00:11:09.760 --> 00:11:12.104 I just wouldn't have been able to do 00:11:12.345 --> 00:11:13.145 with a SaaS product. 00:11:14.368 --> 00:11:16.309 And that level of ownership, 00:11:16.529 --> 00:11:19.595 there is a movement out there in general, 00:11:19.855 --> 00:11:22.097 the local first stuff where people are 00:11:22.118 --> 00:11:24.600 really focusing on what can they own and 00:11:24.660 --> 00:11:24.822 run. 00:11:26.663 --> 00:11:28.625 And I hadn't really been part of that 00:11:28.645 --> 00:11:29.206 community. 00:11:29.505 --> 00:11:30.788 It wasn't necessarily something that I 00:11:30.847 --> 00:11:31.788 thought too hard about. 00:11:31.888 --> 00:11:33.309 Most of the companies I worked for were 00:11:33.350 --> 00:11:34.110 SaaS companies. 00:11:34.990 --> 00:11:36.072 So I didn't, I think, 00:11:36.152 --> 00:11:38.854 realize how much I would like it once 00:11:38.994 --> 00:11:43.038 I could actually own and control this 00:11:43.077 --> 00:11:46.801 thing that also is being governed by a 00:11:46.900 --> 00:11:49.663 body of people who know auth really well 00:11:49.682 --> 00:11:51.764 and will make sure that nothing bad is 00:11:51.804 --> 00:11:52.144 happening. 00:11:52.625 --> 00:11:55.207 Whereas when you implement 00:11:55.847 --> 00:11:56.347 Homegrown, 00:11:56.629 --> 00:11:58.470 you're kind of at the mercy of your 00:11:58.529 --> 00:11:59.129 own knowledge. 00:12:00.630 --> 00:12:01.490 So you could have, 00:12:01.610 --> 00:12:03.532 it was like you could have the local 00:12:03.552 --> 00:12:05.113 thing, have your cake and eat it too, 00:12:06.553 --> 00:12:08.774 which I definitely appreciated and 00:12:09.014 --> 00:12:10.696 actually hadn't used an auth solution that 00:12:10.716 --> 00:12:11.336 did that before. 00:12:11.956 --> 00:12:12.277 Yeah, 00:12:12.297 --> 00:12:15.259 I was actually just thinking about how for 00:12:15.339 --> 00:12:17.159 any SaaS product that you're integrating 00:12:17.200 --> 00:12:19.322 into your site or whatever, 00:12:20.001 --> 00:12:22.322 if it's hosted somewhere, 00:12:22.803 --> 00:12:24.264 then if you're working locally, 00:12:24.284 --> 00:12:26.186 you have to figure out some way of 00:12:26.245 --> 00:12:28.226 either authorizing that local connection. 00:12:28.287 --> 00:12:31.769 It'd be a huge benefit just for local 00:12:31.788 --> 00:12:32.970 development and local testing. 00:12:33.770 --> 00:12:35.731 to be able to stand it up on 00:12:35.772 --> 00:12:36.072 your own thing. 00:12:36.092 --> 00:12:38.355 Or like in CI even. 00:12:38.475 --> 00:12:39.976 Just like multiple environments, 00:12:40.037 --> 00:12:42.479 like anything like that. 00:12:42.619 --> 00:12:47.082 And I think the configuration thing is 00:12:47.163 --> 00:12:49.485 something that maybe at Fusion Earth we 00:12:49.505 --> 00:12:50.427 don't talk about enough. 00:12:52.008 --> 00:12:53.769 You can have this configuration file 00:12:53.809 --> 00:12:55.350 called a kickstart and it's basically a 00:12:55.410 --> 00:12:56.852 JSON file that makes a bunch of calls 00:12:56.873 --> 00:12:57.273 to the API. 00:12:58.734 --> 00:12:59.514 when you run it. 00:12:59.813 --> 00:13:03.075 So you can put in like a custom 00:13:03.115 --> 00:13:03.534 theme. 00:13:03.634 --> 00:13:05.775 You can have it create specific users. 00:13:05.796 --> 00:13:08.196 You can have it create applications with a 00:13:08.216 --> 00:13:09.216 specific ID. 00:13:11.037 --> 00:13:12.576 Basically anything the API can do, 00:13:12.677 --> 00:13:15.138 you can put into the kickstart and it 00:13:15.158 --> 00:13:16.498 will do it for you automatically. 00:13:16.538 --> 00:13:17.499 Like as soon as you spin up, 00:13:17.519 --> 00:13:19.259 as soon as you like run Docker compose. 00:13:20.538 --> 00:13:22.379 And so you can duplicate environments 00:13:22.419 --> 00:13:23.899 extremely easily that way. 00:13:24.659 --> 00:13:27.581 And, you know, change things that, that, 00:13:28.061 --> 00:13:30.522 make an environmental change that then you 00:13:30.542 --> 00:13:32.423 can just give everybody that Kickstart 00:13:32.442 --> 00:13:34.503 file and a bunch of people can have 00:13:34.524 --> 00:13:36.543 the same config in a couple of seconds. 00:13:38.065 --> 00:13:39.065 And that was something that, 00:13:39.745 --> 00:13:41.666 especially for me in DevRel, 00:13:41.826 --> 00:13:43.567 creating demos and that type of thing, 00:13:43.647 --> 00:13:45.668 instead of having this huge long setup 00:13:45.727 --> 00:13:47.508 where first you go into apps and then 00:13:47.528 --> 00:13:49.389 you have to copy and paste this client 00:13:49.408 --> 00:13:49.989 ID or whatever, 00:13:52.049 --> 00:13:53.650 I can just set all of that up 00:13:53.890 --> 00:13:56.052 for you and you can be productive right 00:13:56.091 --> 00:13:56.272 away. 00:13:57.412 --> 00:13:59.053 which I love, 00:13:59.094 --> 00:14:00.775 but it was also funny because when I 00:14:00.875 --> 00:14:02.437 first started at Fusion, 00:14:02.456 --> 00:14:04.038 not the very first time I used it 00:14:04.519 --> 00:14:06.260 and it ran a kickstart and I was 00:14:06.301 --> 00:14:06.701 like, Oh my God, 00:14:06.741 --> 00:14:08.003 a bunch of things just happened magically. 00:14:08.524 --> 00:14:08.663 Like, 00:14:08.724 --> 00:14:10.004 how do I have all this stuff set 00:14:10.085 --> 00:14:10.304 up? 00:14:10.686 --> 00:14:12.727 Like, I didn't know where it came from. 00:14:13.067 --> 00:14:13.227 Um, 00:14:13.369 --> 00:14:15.370 I think just because we don't talk about 00:14:15.390 --> 00:14:16.912 the kickstart very much. 00:14:17.131 --> 00:14:17.212 Um, 00:14:18.082 --> 00:14:20.768 But having done a bunch of things with 00:14:20.788 --> 00:14:22.350 FusionAuth now, 00:14:22.893 --> 00:14:26.700 it's one of the highlights for me of 00:14:26.740 --> 00:14:29.085 the setup process is having the ability to 00:14:29.125 --> 00:14:29.566 do that. 00:14:31.429 --> 00:14:33.591 You give full access to the API. 00:14:33.610 --> 00:14:35.471 Developers can access anything in the API. 00:14:35.552 --> 00:14:37.712 And that's part of the role that we 00:14:37.753 --> 00:14:40.193 play in DevRel is when a magic thing 00:14:40.234 --> 00:14:43.956 happens, demystifying the magic part. 00:14:44.936 --> 00:14:46.216 Like, yeah, it is magic. 00:14:46.616 --> 00:14:47.057 But also, 00:14:47.096 --> 00:14:49.438 let me walk you through all of those 00:14:50.318 --> 00:14:51.860 things that just happened that made the 00:14:51.879 --> 00:14:53.179 magic that you're seeing so that you don't 00:14:53.200 --> 00:14:54.240 have to worry about these things. 00:14:54.801 --> 00:14:57.123 yeah yeah and i think that's that's kind 00:14:57.143 --> 00:15:00.246 of like the philosophy around how i think 00:15:00.326 --> 00:15:03.629 about teaching people stuff about auth um 00:15:03.710 --> 00:15:06.111 i know for me like probably the first 00:15:06.172 --> 00:15:07.754 example of something that i was like this 00:15:07.774 --> 00:15:09.615 is a black box and i really don't 00:15:09.635 --> 00:15:12.438 understand it was jason webb tokens like 00:15:12.479 --> 00:15:16.142 how they're signed and and that part was 00:15:16.201 --> 00:15:18.424 like every article that i ever read was 00:15:18.445 --> 00:15:18.784 just like 00:15:18.945 --> 00:15:20.947 And then you sign it and magic. 00:15:20.966 --> 00:15:23.428 And I was like, but what's happening? 00:15:23.469 --> 00:15:26.251 What does that mean? 00:15:26.292 --> 00:15:27.251 What does those words mean? 00:15:27.272 --> 00:15:27.613 Yeah, 00:15:28.493 --> 00:15:32.616 but it was interesting because it's not 00:15:32.657 --> 00:15:34.658 that I wanted to do it myself. 00:15:34.818 --> 00:15:36.740 I didn't want to have to write the 00:15:36.760 --> 00:15:38.682 code that would actually execute all of 00:15:38.763 --> 00:15:38.942 that. 00:15:38.982 --> 00:15:40.403 I'm totally fine using a library. 00:15:41.144 --> 00:15:42.826 But it was just this mystery thing that 00:15:42.846 --> 00:15:44.528 was a secret thing. 00:15:45.928 --> 00:15:48.951 And I like exposing those secrets, 00:15:49.610 --> 00:15:51.552 not so that people can go do it 00:15:51.591 --> 00:15:52.092 themselves, 00:15:52.133 --> 00:15:54.995 but so they understand how things work. 00:15:55.235 --> 00:15:56.916 And then they can have that confidence, 00:15:56.956 --> 00:15:57.316 again, 00:15:57.475 --> 00:16:00.038 like that it's being done right and that 00:16:00.097 --> 00:16:01.839 they understand what's been done, 00:16:01.979 --> 00:16:03.980 even if they weren't the ones to actually 00:16:04.039 --> 00:16:07.001 like write the code, stuff like that. 00:16:07.163 --> 00:16:07.602 Yeah. 00:16:07.783 --> 00:16:07.903 Yeah. 00:16:08.908 --> 00:16:10.750 What was your, um, tell me about your, 00:16:10.850 --> 00:16:14.793 your journey into tech broadly and then 00:16:15.714 --> 00:16:17.836 transitioning like into like developer 00:16:17.875 --> 00:16:18.956 relations as a focus. 00:16:19.057 --> 00:16:19.716 I feel like the, 00:16:19.736 --> 00:16:20.778 the story of how we got, 00:16:20.977 --> 00:16:22.500 we get into dev rel is always sort 00:16:22.539 --> 00:16:22.840 of like. 00:16:23.754 --> 00:16:26.135 Often a meandering sort of journey. 00:16:26.876 --> 00:16:28.096 A lot of people just fall into it. 00:16:28.197 --> 00:16:30.057 Or they're doing DevRel for a long time 00:16:30.099 --> 00:16:32.159 and their role doesn't say developer 00:16:32.200 --> 00:16:32.620 relations. 00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:33.159 Exactly. 00:16:33.179 --> 00:16:34.600 They recognize that's what they've been 00:16:34.640 --> 00:16:35.260 doing forever. 00:16:36.761 --> 00:16:38.482 And that actually wasn't the case for me. 00:16:38.763 --> 00:16:40.884 So I had... 00:16:42.625 --> 00:16:44.807 actually gotten my degree in animal 00:16:44.826 --> 00:16:47.749 behavior neurobiology that is totally 00:16:47.849 --> 00:16:49.570 lends itself to developer relations yeah 00:16:50.169 --> 00:16:51.890 as a child i i was like i'm 00:16:51.931 --> 00:16:53.131 gonna be a doctor and then i was 00:16:53.172 --> 00:16:54.753 like i'm gonna be a scientist and then 00:16:54.832 --> 00:16:57.335 i went to college for science and i 00:16:57.934 --> 00:16:59.535 really enjoyed it like i loved it um 00:17:00.437 --> 00:17:02.577 but then as i was you know kind 00:17:02.618 --> 00:17:04.099 of reaching the end of my degree 00:17:05.919 --> 00:17:08.022 it was abundantly apparent to me that if 00:17:08.081 --> 00:17:10.682 I wanted to continue to build a career 00:17:11.082 --> 00:17:12.844 in the things that I was interested in, 00:17:12.864 --> 00:17:14.705 most likely it would mean that I would 00:17:15.225 --> 00:17:17.206 need to get a doctorate and I would 00:17:17.265 --> 00:17:18.866 also need to teach. 00:17:19.626 --> 00:17:22.368 So I would need to teach college while 00:17:22.449 --> 00:17:25.089 in the summer I got grants and did 00:17:25.130 --> 00:17:25.710 research. 00:17:26.069 --> 00:17:28.711 And the irony is at the time I 00:17:28.731 --> 00:17:29.211 was like, well, 00:17:29.251 --> 00:17:30.352 I probably don't want to teach. 00:17:30.392 --> 00:17:31.333 I don't want to teach people. 00:17:32.413 --> 00:17:34.615 So, you know, looking back on it now, 00:17:34.655 --> 00:17:35.576 I probably would have loved it. 00:17:36.017 --> 00:17:37.438 Maybe I would have become a college 00:17:37.458 --> 00:17:38.338 professor instead. 00:17:39.058 --> 00:17:41.540 But at the time I was like, oh, 00:17:41.621 --> 00:17:42.942 well, maybe, 00:17:43.603 --> 00:17:45.384 maybe that's not like the thing that I 00:17:45.423 --> 00:17:47.125 want to spend the next eight years doing. 00:17:48.446 --> 00:17:52.150 And so I had taught myself how to 00:17:52.190 --> 00:17:54.112 code as many people did. 00:17:54.132 --> 00:17:56.452 I think when I was in like fifth 00:17:56.492 --> 00:17:56.854 grade, 00:17:56.913 --> 00:17:58.894 I went to summer science camp and they 00:17:58.954 --> 00:17:59.316 had like 00:18:00.124 --> 00:18:01.683 an hour or something that they spent 00:18:01.844 --> 00:18:03.265 teaching us HTML. 00:18:04.005 --> 00:18:06.045 And this was even like CSS was not 00:18:06.085 --> 00:18:06.464 a thing yet. 00:18:06.605 --> 00:18:07.486 Yeah, right. 00:18:07.826 --> 00:18:09.846 And I had then, you know, 00:18:09.885 --> 00:18:12.487 gone on to make five hundred GeoCities 00:18:12.606 --> 00:18:15.027 sites on every little thing that I was 00:18:15.086 --> 00:18:15.686 interested in. 00:18:16.287 --> 00:18:18.347 Had the like a little under construction 00:18:18.448 --> 00:18:21.548 gif and the guest book and the page 00:18:21.588 --> 00:18:21.949 counter. 00:18:21.969 --> 00:18:22.048 Yeah. 00:18:23.868 --> 00:18:26.069 So basically anything that interested me, 00:18:26.109 --> 00:18:27.990 I just made a GeoCities site about it. 00:18:29.367 --> 00:18:31.729 And that whole time, as a kid, 00:18:32.648 --> 00:18:34.308 it never somehow occurred to me that that 00:18:34.328 --> 00:18:35.130 could be a career. 00:18:35.990 --> 00:18:36.329 I was just like, 00:18:36.369 --> 00:18:37.670 this is a thing I do for fun, 00:18:37.829 --> 00:18:39.070 and I'm going to be a scientist. 00:18:41.151 --> 00:18:44.652 So then that perpetuated, though, 00:18:45.011 --> 00:18:46.692 all the way kind of through college 00:18:46.732 --> 00:18:49.173 because I had decided, okay, 00:18:49.413 --> 00:18:50.513 maybe I don't want to be a professor, 00:18:50.574 --> 00:18:52.173 so I'm going to get a second degree 00:18:52.594 --> 00:18:54.035 in human bio and dietetics. 00:18:55.055 --> 00:18:55.115 Um, 00:18:55.134 --> 00:18:56.616 because it overlaps with a lot of the 00:18:56.636 --> 00:18:57.718 science that I already had. 00:18:58.077 --> 00:19:01.441 And while I was doing that degree, 00:19:01.480 --> 00:19:02.461 which was going to take a much shorter 00:19:02.501 --> 00:19:03.844 time because I had a lot of prereqs 00:19:03.864 --> 00:19:05.605 done, but while I was doing that, 00:19:05.644 --> 00:19:08.688 I got a job at the university doing, 00:19:09.269 --> 00:19:09.328 uh, 00:19:09.888 --> 00:19:12.790 front-end development and design and IA 00:19:13.411 --> 00:19:16.933 and I was doing that like to you 00:19:16.953 --> 00:19:19.394 know pay the bills and it was at 00:19:19.434 --> 00:19:20.935 that time I still didn't see it as 00:19:20.955 --> 00:19:22.837 a viable career like I had a job 00:19:22.897 --> 00:19:24.618 doing it and I was still like and 00:19:24.679 --> 00:19:26.539 I'm gonna be you know a dietitian now 00:19:26.559 --> 00:19:27.121 yeah um 00:19:28.836 --> 00:19:31.698 And I guess it took a while of 00:19:31.758 --> 00:19:35.582 me suddenly realizing I wasn't getting 00:19:35.642 --> 00:19:39.144 paid enough for my work to actually go 00:19:39.184 --> 00:19:42.487 and start looking at like other real jobs 00:19:42.547 --> 00:19:43.268 doing that. 00:19:43.587 --> 00:19:46.891 And I had basically a full-time job before 00:19:46.971 --> 00:19:48.612 I graduated and it was a full-time job 00:19:48.632 --> 00:19:51.013 at a digital agency, not in science. 00:19:52.115 --> 00:19:53.596 And I was, you know, 00:19:54.436 --> 00:19:56.157 leaving a little bit early to finish my 00:19:56.198 --> 00:19:58.378 last classes for this other degree. 00:19:59.798 --> 00:20:02.900 And I think at that point, 00:20:03.279 --> 00:20:06.622 I shifted my focus for the degree because 00:20:06.701 --> 00:20:08.402 I was so deep into getting a second 00:20:08.422 --> 00:20:08.642 degree, 00:20:08.682 --> 00:20:10.702 I wanted to still walk away with one. 00:20:11.884 --> 00:20:15.305 So I switched to digital media arts and 00:20:15.484 --> 00:20:16.285 communications. 00:20:18.226 --> 00:20:20.867 and knew everything that they were 00:20:20.887 --> 00:20:22.608 teaching us because, you know, 00:20:22.628 --> 00:20:24.430 they were teaching beginning code stuff. 00:20:25.451 --> 00:20:26.411 So it was easy. 00:20:26.711 --> 00:20:30.814 But that phase, I think, 00:20:30.874 --> 00:20:32.375 was when I realized, oh, okay, like, 00:20:32.494 --> 00:20:33.635 this is going to be my career. 00:20:33.675 --> 00:20:35.557 It's not anything like what I thought it 00:20:35.576 --> 00:20:37.259 was going to be, you know, 00:20:37.278 --> 00:20:38.779 when I was a kid or even when 00:20:38.839 --> 00:20:39.559 I entered college. 00:20:40.361 --> 00:20:40.560 Yeah. 00:20:41.430 --> 00:20:45.756 So then I worked at digital agencies for 00:20:46.016 --> 00:20:46.436 a while. 00:20:47.698 --> 00:20:49.961 I did more front end development and then 00:20:50.101 --> 00:20:53.045 eventually did engineering management and 00:20:53.065 --> 00:20:55.167 architecture and that type of thing. 00:20:55.468 --> 00:20:59.093 And then I had a baby. 00:21:00.153 --> 00:21:01.394 And I, 00:21:01.615 --> 00:21:03.297 so I was gone for like three months 00:21:03.477 --> 00:21:05.980 and I came back and I just remember 00:21:06.019 --> 00:21:08.602 like the designer met me outside the door, 00:21:08.622 --> 00:21:09.863 like in the parking lot when I was 00:21:09.883 --> 00:21:10.943 coming back and he was like, 00:21:11.124 --> 00:21:12.766 wait until you see this. 00:21:13.405 --> 00:21:16.308 So I got in and immediately basically 00:21:16.388 --> 00:21:18.190 started working a hundred hour work weeks. 00:21:18.391 --> 00:21:18.691 Yeah. 00:21:18.971 --> 00:21:19.692 I was getting home at, like, 00:21:19.711 --> 00:21:20.333 two in the morning. 00:21:20.593 --> 00:21:22.295 It was absolutely ridiculous. 00:21:23.317 --> 00:21:24.878 So I was missing milestones, like, 00:21:24.939 --> 00:21:25.239 for my kid. 00:21:25.900 --> 00:21:28.884 And I, you know, had said, okay, 00:21:29.505 --> 00:21:30.865 I can't sustain this. 00:21:32.208 --> 00:21:34.770 And so I applied for jobs and... 00:21:36.268 --> 00:21:38.449 I had met some people at a conference 00:21:38.489 --> 00:21:40.631 that I had just attended for work to 00:21:40.651 --> 00:21:41.151 learn stuff. 00:21:42.311 --> 00:21:43.432 And they said, oh, 00:21:43.451 --> 00:21:44.472 we work at Auth Zero. 00:21:44.732 --> 00:21:46.034 You should apply, 00:21:46.094 --> 00:21:49.155 especially if you like to write and make 00:21:49.195 --> 00:21:50.155 tutorials and stuff. 00:21:50.236 --> 00:21:51.057 And I was like, oh, yeah, 00:21:51.076 --> 00:21:51.636 that sounds fun. 00:21:52.758 --> 00:21:55.298 So I joined Auth Zero on the content 00:21:55.318 --> 00:21:55.719 team. 00:21:56.819 --> 00:21:57.519 Basically, 00:21:58.601 --> 00:22:00.481 we were developers who could write. 00:22:00.882 --> 00:22:02.323 So everybody was an engineer. 00:22:02.423 --> 00:22:03.743 Everybody knew how to code. 00:22:04.984 --> 00:22:05.184 And... 00:22:06.669 --> 00:22:09.051 got to write about pretty much anything 00:22:09.092 --> 00:22:11.473 that I found interesting as long as I 00:22:11.513 --> 00:22:13.276 could tie it in some way back to 00:22:13.395 --> 00:22:13.557 off. 00:22:13.636 --> 00:22:15.719 And even in those, in those early days, 00:22:15.739 --> 00:22:17.840 like we even didn't always write about off 00:22:17.881 --> 00:22:18.182 at all. 00:22:18.241 --> 00:22:20.724 Like there are old articles on that blog 00:22:20.744 --> 00:22:22.507 that don't have anything to do with off. 00:22:23.267 --> 00:22:23.468 Um, 00:22:24.067 --> 00:22:27.390 Because I later went to a conference and 00:22:27.490 --> 00:22:28.790 somebody was like, where do you work? 00:22:28.810 --> 00:22:29.852 And I was like, Astero. 00:22:30.011 --> 00:22:30.672 And they were like, oh, 00:22:30.711 --> 00:22:32.613 I love that blog. 00:22:32.653 --> 00:22:34.354 They didn't even know we were an auth 00:22:34.394 --> 00:22:34.753 company. 00:22:34.794 --> 00:22:35.894 They just liked the blog. 00:22:36.555 --> 00:22:40.018 So eventually, I got to... 00:22:40.958 --> 00:22:43.480 a few leadership roles and managing 00:22:43.500 --> 00:22:46.241 additional teams and had the opportunity 00:22:46.261 --> 00:22:49.163 to speak at a conference because we had 00:22:49.184 --> 00:22:51.145 an advocate who was on his way out, 00:22:51.165 --> 00:22:52.426 but he had already made this commitment. 00:22:52.906 --> 00:22:54.167 He didn't actually work at the company 00:22:54.188 --> 00:22:55.489 anymore at the time of the conference. 00:22:55.509 --> 00:22:55.769 He said, 00:22:55.809 --> 00:22:57.851 do you want to speak with me? 00:22:58.192 --> 00:23:00.573 Because you do actually still work there. 00:23:00.913 --> 00:23:03.615 And I thought it sounded terrifying. 00:23:04.915 --> 00:23:06.656 And thought I should definitely do it 00:23:06.696 --> 00:23:08.517 because it sounds terrifying and it seems 00:23:08.537 --> 00:23:09.557 like something I should do. 00:23:10.477 --> 00:23:11.298 And it was terrifying. 00:23:12.157 --> 00:23:14.397 But I found out that I really, 00:23:14.438 --> 00:23:15.239 really enjoyed it. 00:23:15.878 --> 00:23:17.179 So I started applying to speak at more 00:23:17.199 --> 00:23:17.919 conferences. 00:23:18.638 --> 00:23:20.240 I started traveling and speaking and 00:23:20.740 --> 00:23:24.441 eventually ended up leading Global DevRel 00:23:24.661 --> 00:23:25.721 at AuthZero. 00:23:28.068 --> 00:23:31.435 having come from doing a ton of DevRel 00:23:31.476 --> 00:23:33.420 while I was not on the DevRel team. 00:23:34.361 --> 00:23:36.144 But yeah, ever since then, 00:23:36.325 --> 00:23:38.950 I have only had DevRel roles after that. 00:23:39.843 --> 00:23:40.083 I mean, 00:23:40.324 --> 00:23:43.967 developers who write is kind of like one 00:23:44.007 --> 00:23:44.307 of the, 00:23:45.048 --> 00:23:47.631 or two of the qualifications like that I 00:23:47.651 --> 00:23:49.913 would list under the role of like 00:23:49.972 --> 00:23:51.954 developer relations, anything, you know, 00:23:52.035 --> 00:23:54.416 like it's such a small Venn diagram 00:23:54.457 --> 00:23:58.401 because most developers are super, 00:23:58.500 --> 00:24:02.184 just very technical, uh, very like, 00:24:02.724 --> 00:24:02.944 like 00:24:03.865 --> 00:24:07.327 sort of focused on their area of interest, 00:24:07.827 --> 00:24:11.451 but not necessarily able to make the words 00:24:11.490 --> 00:24:11.770 good. 00:24:12.931 --> 00:24:15.413 And it often takes somebody like, 00:24:16.578 --> 00:24:19.460 me like i i wanted to be a 00:24:19.500 --> 00:24:22.080 writer or something creative right like 00:24:22.142 --> 00:24:23.082 when i was a kid i wanted to 00:24:23.102 --> 00:24:25.202 be a writer or a rock star one 00:24:25.222 --> 00:24:28.964 of those two things um and uh and 00:24:28.984 --> 00:24:31.065 not a rock star in the tech bro 00:24:31.105 --> 00:24:35.988 sense yeah no i like a literal i 00:24:36.028 --> 00:24:37.288 said that out loud i'm like wait a 00:24:37.327 --> 00:24:39.189 second i don't want to be that kind 00:24:39.229 --> 00:24:40.650 of rock star um 00:24:41.852 --> 00:24:44.192 but uh but yeah so i i you 00:24:44.212 --> 00:24:45.594 know did a lot of writing and so 00:24:46.034 --> 00:24:47.513 and as a developer i did a lot 00:24:47.554 --> 00:24:49.575 of writing too but it was never part 00:24:49.615 --> 00:24:51.796 of my job until you know i took 00:24:51.855 --> 00:24:53.457 the role and i was like yeah i'm 00:24:53.557 --> 00:24:55.037 doing this because i've been doing it but 00:24:55.096 --> 00:24:56.938 also because i'm good at it and it's 00:24:56.978 --> 00:24:58.858 fun and it gets to flex the muscles 00:24:58.878 --> 00:25:00.739 the creative muscles that i don't get to 00:25:00.778 --> 00:25:02.039 do in like an engineering role 00:25:02.743 --> 00:25:03.805 Yeah, yeah, totally. 00:25:04.204 --> 00:25:05.165 And that's what like, 00:25:05.266 --> 00:25:08.449 I found it really refreshing to coming off 00:25:08.588 --> 00:25:11.852 of doing all like production production 00:25:11.872 --> 00:25:15.154 work for external clients, who, you know, 00:25:15.642 --> 00:25:17.603 were various levels of difficult to work 00:25:17.722 --> 00:25:18.002 with. 00:25:18.083 --> 00:25:18.663 Yeah. 00:25:18.702 --> 00:25:19.442 Yeah. 00:25:19.462 --> 00:25:20.583 I'm not even sure there was anybody who 00:25:20.603 --> 00:25:21.923 was like really easy to work with. 00:25:22.003 --> 00:25:23.663 I think it was all just levels of 00:25:23.723 --> 00:25:25.904 difficult, but you know, 00:25:25.944 --> 00:25:27.365 I loved it because the work changed all 00:25:27.384 --> 00:25:27.825 the time. 00:25:28.125 --> 00:25:28.285 Right. 00:25:28.925 --> 00:25:31.685 And so if you had one hellish project, 00:25:31.806 --> 00:25:34.067 like hopefully in a year, 00:25:34.146 --> 00:25:35.606 you wouldn't be on that project anymore. 00:25:35.627 --> 00:25:36.627 Yeah. 00:25:37.528 --> 00:25:40.131 But I really kind of was still able 00:25:40.191 --> 00:25:42.353 to sort of get that doing the writing 00:25:42.394 --> 00:25:45.217 because we could basically write about 00:25:45.257 --> 00:25:46.077 whatever we wanted, 00:25:46.137 --> 00:25:47.138 whatever we were interested in. 00:25:47.159 --> 00:25:48.701 So anything that I wanted to learn, 00:25:48.961 --> 00:25:49.741 I was just like, okay, 00:25:49.761 --> 00:25:51.743 I'm going to write an article about this, 00:25:51.784 --> 00:25:53.445 a tutorial on how to integrate auth with 00:25:54.346 --> 00:25:56.829 X new thing that came out because I 00:25:56.869 --> 00:25:58.330 want to learn that thing. 00:25:58.351 --> 00:25:58.632 Right. 00:25:59.929 --> 00:26:01.210 So I got farther and farther away from 00:26:01.250 --> 00:26:02.070 production code. 00:26:02.191 --> 00:26:06.653 I obviously haven't done client work since 00:26:06.713 --> 00:26:06.993 then. 00:26:07.934 --> 00:26:08.615 And once in a while, 00:26:09.075 --> 00:26:12.738 I kind of miss getting some wireframes and 00:26:12.758 --> 00:26:14.598 getting a design and slicing it up and 00:26:14.659 --> 00:26:15.500 doing all the things. 00:26:18.553 --> 00:26:22.455 I still get to write a ton of 00:26:22.496 --> 00:26:26.018 code in these types of roles. 00:26:26.178 --> 00:26:28.338 And that is another thing that I really 00:26:28.439 --> 00:26:32.781 value about being in DevRel is I still 00:26:32.821 --> 00:26:34.083 get to write code, 00:26:34.103 --> 00:26:36.203 but I also get to teach people and 00:26:36.243 --> 00:26:39.965 do talks and things like that. 00:26:40.006 --> 00:26:40.967 And things like this. 00:26:41.247 --> 00:26:41.547 Yeah. 00:26:41.606 --> 00:26:41.807 Yeah. 00:26:45.414 --> 00:26:47.375 my brain completely stopped functioning 00:26:47.395 --> 00:26:49.137 for a second. 00:26:49.157 --> 00:26:50.357 There is a thing that I was going 00:26:50.377 --> 00:26:50.919 to ask. 00:26:53.359 --> 00:26:56.843 Oh, my God. 00:26:57.242 --> 00:26:59.243 Tell me about making small things. 00:27:01.705 --> 00:27:05.548 Yeah, so I make miniatures as a hobby. 00:27:05.788 --> 00:27:07.190 It was a pandemic hobby. 00:27:09.852 --> 00:27:11.192 Ever since I was really little, 00:27:11.512 --> 00:27:13.996 I had the dollhouse that my grandparents 00:27:14.036 --> 00:27:16.198 made me, like handmade. 00:27:16.898 --> 00:27:18.881 And I always loved making little things 00:27:18.901 --> 00:27:19.721 for the dollhouse. 00:27:19.761 --> 00:27:22.104 Like I'd make the little Play-Doh hot dog 00:27:22.625 --> 00:27:24.346 in a bottle cap or something. 00:27:25.728 --> 00:27:27.710 And so I always was interested in, 00:27:27.910 --> 00:27:28.830 in little things. 00:27:29.330 --> 00:27:31.373 And during the pandemic, 00:27:31.733 --> 00:27:33.474 I think I was just like looking at 00:27:33.815 --> 00:27:34.935 stuff on Instagram and stuff. 00:27:34.955 --> 00:27:35.717 And I was like, Oh, 00:27:35.757 --> 00:27:38.500 people make this amazing, super realistic, 00:27:38.539 --> 00:27:39.279 tiny food. 00:27:39.319 --> 00:27:40.862 And it was so real and it's so 00:27:40.882 --> 00:27:41.162 cool. 00:27:41.823 --> 00:27:45.046 And then I watched a couple of tutorials 00:27:45.066 --> 00:27:46.067 and I was like, Oh my, 00:27:46.446 --> 00:27:47.748 they're using polymer clay. 00:27:48.028 --> 00:27:49.548 Anybody can buy polymer clay. 00:27:49.568 --> 00:27:52.990 Like it's not a special magical thing that 00:27:53.070 --> 00:27:53.771 you, you know, 00:27:53.791 --> 00:27:57.034 need to be super experienced in to even 00:27:57.054 --> 00:27:57.914 get your hands on. 00:27:58.214 --> 00:27:58.355 Um, 00:27:58.835 --> 00:28:02.397 and so I started making miniature polymer 00:28:02.417 --> 00:28:05.700 clay food and got quite into it and 00:28:05.720 --> 00:28:07.961 then started making other things as well. 00:28:08.240 --> 00:28:08.362 Um, 00:28:08.422 --> 00:28:10.063 I've made like a Catan board and stuff 00:28:10.222 --> 00:28:11.123 like that. 00:28:11.824 --> 00:28:11.864 Um, 00:28:13.527 --> 00:28:16.814 and had gotten kind of i oh through 00:28:16.854 --> 00:28:19.479 the course of like the tiny things uh 00:28:19.519 --> 00:28:21.942 covid thing i started getting into 00:28:22.002 --> 00:28:24.228 mechanical keyboards and uh 00:28:26.532 --> 00:28:27.472 Artisan keycaps. 00:28:27.753 --> 00:28:31.275 So I started experimenting with making 00:28:31.434 --> 00:28:33.455 artisan keycaps with polymer clay. 00:28:33.476 --> 00:28:34.977 And there's a lot of kind of thought 00:28:34.997 --> 00:28:36.137 and design that has to go into that 00:28:36.157 --> 00:28:37.218 because you need to design them in a 00:28:37.258 --> 00:28:38.199 way they're not going to break. 00:28:39.659 --> 00:28:41.039 And then from there, 00:28:41.180 --> 00:28:43.520 I actually started getting into resin 00:28:43.540 --> 00:28:43.881 casting. 00:28:44.541 --> 00:28:49.663 So now I resin cast artisan keycaps as 00:28:49.683 --> 00:28:52.545 well as make the tiny food and game 00:28:52.586 --> 00:28:52.826 boards. 00:28:55.941 --> 00:28:56.020 Oh, 00:28:56.080 --> 00:28:56.961 I remember the thing I was going to 00:28:56.981 --> 00:28:57.122 say. 00:29:01.826 --> 00:29:03.267 And it sort of tangentially relates, 00:29:04.067 --> 00:29:07.671 because we were talking about speaking, 00:29:08.330 --> 00:29:09.372 and you were talking about being 00:29:09.412 --> 00:29:10.133 terrified. 00:29:11.334 --> 00:29:13.214 And developer relations, 00:29:13.915 --> 00:29:17.239 from my experience, but also from, like, 00:29:17.278 --> 00:29:19.059 I've been speaking at events for long 00:29:19.079 --> 00:29:21.041 before I was a developer advocate. 00:29:23.288 --> 00:29:25.130 But it involves a lot of speaking or 00:29:25.170 --> 00:29:26.372 being in front of people or whatever. 00:29:27.492 --> 00:29:27.673 I, 00:29:28.814 --> 00:29:31.297 in high school and into college a little 00:29:31.317 --> 00:29:34.881 bit, was really into theater and film, 00:29:34.921 --> 00:29:36.603 and so I was all about being in 00:29:36.643 --> 00:29:37.262 front of people, 00:29:38.444 --> 00:29:41.027 which is another thing that most engineers 00:29:41.228 --> 00:29:43.069 are very much... 00:29:44.611 --> 00:29:45.432 very introverted, 00:29:45.531 --> 00:29:47.193 would much rather just sit in a room 00:29:47.213 --> 00:29:49.276 that is dark and stare at their computer 00:29:49.336 --> 00:29:51.758 and just type code without interacting 00:29:51.778 --> 00:29:53.199 with another human being for most of the 00:29:53.219 --> 00:29:53.400 day. 00:29:54.861 --> 00:29:58.964 Whereas I definitely enjoy being around 00:29:59.464 --> 00:30:02.607 people or being in spaces where I can 00:30:02.708 --> 00:30:04.970 talk to people and have conversations and 00:30:05.010 --> 00:30:05.290 things. 00:30:06.771 --> 00:30:09.712 And so that makes the speaking thing 00:30:10.932 --> 00:30:15.035 slightly less of a nightmarish, 00:30:15.055 --> 00:30:16.935 horrifying thing for me because it's just 00:30:16.976 --> 00:30:21.257 a form of being on stage thing. 00:30:21.317 --> 00:30:23.218 So all that to say, 00:30:24.678 --> 00:30:26.558 where on the sort of introversion, 00:30:26.659 --> 00:30:29.200 extroversion spectrum do you see yourself? 00:30:29.220 --> 00:30:30.779 Because I have a suspicion. 00:30:33.441 --> 00:30:34.981 I'm an outgoing introvert. 00:30:35.781 --> 00:30:36.741 Okay. 00:30:37.021 --> 00:30:38.083 So I love to speak. 00:30:38.123 --> 00:30:39.343 I love to interact with people. 00:30:39.542 --> 00:30:40.863 I love to be out and about and 00:30:40.903 --> 00:30:41.763 doing these things. 00:30:41.923 --> 00:30:43.503 And then I need a little bit of 00:30:43.523 --> 00:30:45.164 time by myself in order to recover. 00:30:45.184 --> 00:30:45.884 Yeah. 00:30:45.904 --> 00:30:48.425 So I don't, you know, the classic, 00:30:48.506 --> 00:30:48.705 I think, 00:30:48.766 --> 00:30:51.247 definition of an extrovert is you get 00:30:51.426 --> 00:30:53.307 energy by doing those things. 00:30:53.386 --> 00:30:54.007 Yeah. 00:30:54.086 --> 00:30:56.968 And then introversion is when you get 00:30:57.048 --> 00:30:58.528 energy by being by yourself. 00:30:58.669 --> 00:30:58.929 Mm-hmm. 00:30:59.229 --> 00:31:02.010 And I think people often confuse 00:31:02.132 --> 00:31:05.673 introversion and shyness because you can 00:31:05.733 --> 00:31:07.415 totally be an extremely outgoing 00:31:07.476 --> 00:31:08.876 introvert. 00:31:08.957 --> 00:31:11.398 It's just that the way you recover from... 00:31:11.459 --> 00:31:12.859 It drains your energy to do that instead 00:31:12.920 --> 00:31:15.362 of giving you more energy. 00:31:15.382 --> 00:31:18.944 So that's definitely where I'd classify 00:31:18.984 --> 00:31:19.345 myself. 00:31:19.425 --> 00:31:20.926 But as a child, 00:31:20.967 --> 00:31:22.748 I think the words painfully shy would 00:31:22.807 --> 00:31:24.470 probably be accurate. 00:31:25.009 --> 00:31:25.309 Like... 00:31:26.411 --> 00:31:27.271 like, painfully shy, like, 00:31:27.311 --> 00:31:28.692 hide behind my parents, like, 00:31:28.731 --> 00:31:30.814 in public when somebody talked to me type 00:31:30.854 --> 00:31:31.413 of shy. 00:31:32.494 --> 00:31:33.434 So, you know, 00:31:33.575 --> 00:31:35.215 it surprised even me that this was 00:31:35.256 --> 00:31:36.997 something that I was actually really 00:31:37.076 --> 00:31:37.637 interested in. 00:31:37.678 --> 00:31:38.778 Yeah. 00:31:38.817 --> 00:31:40.219 Like, as an adult. 00:31:40.398 --> 00:31:42.380 But I think speaking, 00:31:42.539 --> 00:31:43.881 if you are introverted, 00:31:44.622 --> 00:31:46.182 speaking at conferences is actually an 00:31:46.343 --> 00:31:49.304 awesome way to go and, like, 00:31:50.892 --> 00:31:52.913 have give people a reason to talk to 00:31:52.952 --> 00:31:56.275 you yeah like it's i've been to 00:31:56.315 --> 00:31:59.195 conferences alone it kind of it's hard 00:31:59.236 --> 00:32:01.657 especially if you're an introvert yeah to 00:32:01.857 --> 00:32:03.578 find people to talk to and stuff like 00:32:03.618 --> 00:32:05.819 that but if you apply to speak at 00:32:05.839 --> 00:32:08.101 an event and you get up and speak 00:32:08.401 --> 00:32:09.961 people will come and find you and talk 00:32:09.981 --> 00:32:13.443 to you and i think that that doing 00:32:13.483 --> 00:32:15.325 a lot more of that also helped me 00:32:15.424 --> 00:32:20.268 to be less shy um so yeah 00:32:20.765 --> 00:32:22.726 Yeah, it's definitely a thing. 00:32:22.826 --> 00:32:24.787 I remember having a conversation with my 00:32:24.826 --> 00:32:30.789 father-in-law who would have identified 00:32:30.930 --> 00:32:33.030 himself as an introvert, 00:32:33.090 --> 00:32:35.251 but also he was a pastor. 00:32:35.451 --> 00:32:38.373 He was very much in front of people 00:32:38.633 --> 00:32:39.693 a lot of the time. 00:32:42.434 --> 00:32:44.797 it was just something that he like he 00:32:44.876 --> 00:32:47.317 learned to adapt and to be that role 00:32:47.478 --> 00:32:49.279 even while it's not necessarily like the 00:32:49.359 --> 00:32:52.481 natural role but like because of social 00:32:52.541 --> 00:32:54.343 circumstance because he's male because of 00:32:54.403 --> 00:32:55.703 all sorts of all sorts of other reasons 00:32:56.223 --> 00:32:58.526 um and and where he was in this 00:32:58.546 --> 00:33:00.007 sort of organizations and things that he 00:33:00.047 --> 00:33:02.488 did uh he just sort of gravitated to 00:33:03.088 --> 00:33:05.450 that thing and just like learned how to 00:33:05.490 --> 00:33:08.372 kind of learned the techniques he needed 00:33:08.432 --> 00:33:10.574 to kind of muscle through in a way 00:33:11.934 --> 00:33:13.215 I definitely find when I go to events 00:33:13.236 --> 00:33:17.441 and I'm around people all day long, 00:33:19.182 --> 00:33:21.085 I definitely need that time to recharge. 00:33:21.125 --> 00:33:23.208 It's like super, it's like exhausting. 00:33:23.607 --> 00:33:24.088 But I also, 00:33:24.909 --> 00:33:26.530 I just always find it interesting because 00:33:26.570 --> 00:33:26.751 like, 00:33:27.271 --> 00:33:29.993 Part of the role of developer relations is 00:33:30.034 --> 00:33:31.554 the relations part. 00:33:31.594 --> 00:33:33.394 It's the interacting with other humans. 00:33:33.434 --> 00:33:35.016 And so it's built in. 00:33:36.217 --> 00:33:37.678 But I don't think that that necessarily 00:33:37.718 --> 00:33:40.679 means that we're all super extroverted. 00:33:41.279 --> 00:33:42.839 We are also, many of us, 00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:45.182 still coders at heart. 00:33:46.574 --> 00:33:49.115 I wouldn't even say that probably more 00:33:49.135 --> 00:33:50.656 than half of the people that I know 00:33:51.297 --> 00:33:52.758 who are in Deverell are introverts. 00:33:54.098 --> 00:33:56.300 Because it's basically a discipline that 00:33:56.421 --> 00:33:59.303 puts you in a position where you will 00:33:59.323 --> 00:34:01.344 be pulled out of your shell by external 00:34:01.364 --> 00:34:02.605 factors and you don't have to force 00:34:02.625 --> 00:34:04.925 yourself out of it on your own. 00:34:04.986 --> 00:34:07.948 And I think that that really has... 00:34:08.127 --> 00:34:08.468 Obviously, 00:34:08.489 --> 00:34:09.689 I've gotten more comfortable with all of 00:34:09.709 --> 00:34:10.349 this stuff, but... 00:34:11.951 --> 00:34:15.571 I had kind of an interesting revelation. 00:34:15.892 --> 00:34:17.073 I went to Cedar Point. 00:34:17.093 --> 00:34:18.292 I don't know if you're familiar with Cedar 00:34:18.333 --> 00:34:18.593 Point. 00:34:19.773 --> 00:34:23.075 It's a massive roller coaster park in the 00:34:23.095 --> 00:34:23.694 Midwest. 00:34:26.655 --> 00:34:27.655 I love roller coasters, 00:34:28.135 --> 00:34:31.438 and I was riding the biggest ones, 00:34:31.737 --> 00:34:34.137 and I realized I don't get nervous about 00:34:34.177 --> 00:34:35.278 going on roller coasters anymore. 00:34:36.103 --> 00:34:36.682 Like, at all. 00:34:37.083 --> 00:34:38.923 And, like, there's no physical reaction. 00:34:38.983 --> 00:34:39.784 I'm just like, hey. 00:34:40.164 --> 00:34:43.864 But I... And I realized, like, how much... 00:34:44.025 --> 00:34:45.865 You know, people are adrenaline junkies. 00:34:46.126 --> 00:34:49.867 And you can get that adrenaline the, like, 00:34:49.907 --> 00:34:52.347 couple of moments before you walk on stage 00:34:52.387 --> 00:34:53.608 in front of, like, a huge crowd. 00:34:54.788 --> 00:34:58.048 And I had this kind of revelation about 00:34:58.088 --> 00:34:59.389 the roller coaster thing is, like, oh, 00:34:59.849 --> 00:35:00.070 like... 00:35:01.170 --> 00:35:03.050 That was part of why I like roller 00:35:03.090 --> 00:35:05.172 coasters is like feeling that feeling 00:35:05.192 --> 00:35:05.952 before you get on. 00:35:06.152 --> 00:35:09.653 And I think that's why I like those 00:35:09.713 --> 00:35:12.695 few moments before like peak scary is 00:35:12.755 --> 00:35:13.235 like, you know, 00:35:13.275 --> 00:35:14.916 the moments that you're walking up to the 00:35:14.936 --> 00:35:15.317 stage. 00:35:15.717 --> 00:35:16.436 Yeah. 00:35:16.637 --> 00:35:17.737 And and I was like. 00:35:18.931 --> 00:35:20.652 I haven't spoken in a while because of 00:35:20.693 --> 00:35:21.413 the pandemic, 00:35:22.193 --> 00:35:24.673 at least not like out in an actual 00:35:24.733 --> 00:35:25.494 physical event. 00:35:25.813 --> 00:35:26.773 And I'm about to do a couple of 00:35:26.793 --> 00:35:27.873 events and I was kind of like, 00:35:27.934 --> 00:35:30.034 I hope I get nervous, 00:35:30.474 --> 00:35:33.655 which is kind of funny, but yeah. 00:35:33.695 --> 00:35:34.635 Yeah, that's awesome. 00:35:34.655 --> 00:35:35.835 That's a really interesting insight. 00:35:35.896 --> 00:35:37.396 Like I wouldn't even have thought about 00:35:37.456 --> 00:35:40.938 that connection, but like, yeah, 00:35:40.998 --> 00:35:42.177 that like the minute that the 00:35:42.197 --> 00:35:44.679 rollercoaster doesn't make you nervous, 00:35:44.699 --> 00:35:45.958 then it becomes less enjoyable. 00:35:47.061 --> 00:35:47.222 Yeah, 00:35:47.262 --> 00:35:48.364 because like a lot of it is kind 00:35:48.384 --> 00:35:48.903 of the hype, 00:35:48.923 --> 00:35:51.487 like building yourself up to do this 00:35:51.527 --> 00:35:51.947 thing. 00:35:52.688 --> 00:35:53.670 Well, and a really good example, 00:35:53.690 --> 00:35:55.313 like I remember the first, 00:35:55.393 --> 00:35:56.914 I think the first roller coaster that I 00:35:56.934 --> 00:35:58.998 had ever been on was probably Space 00:35:59.038 --> 00:36:00.219 Mountain at Disneyland. 00:36:00.699 --> 00:36:03.463 And this was probably... 00:36:06.704 --> 00:36:08.826 maybe the eighties or early nineties. 00:36:09.326 --> 00:36:10.047 So it was, 00:36:10.086 --> 00:36:11.768 they've done a couple like renovations of 00:36:11.807 --> 00:36:12.367 it since then. 00:36:12.429 --> 00:36:14.550 And it's much less dark and much less 00:36:14.570 --> 00:36:14.971 scary. 00:36:15.891 --> 00:36:17.132 But at the time it was like, 00:36:17.291 --> 00:36:19.393 you go in and it's pitch black and 00:36:19.434 --> 00:36:21.675 there's maybe a couple just like tiny 00:36:21.715 --> 00:36:24.018 little lights that are like stars that are 00:36:24.038 --> 00:36:24.518 going around. 00:36:25.539 --> 00:36:29.382 And there's like a loud whooshing like 00:36:29.481 --> 00:36:32.264 wind noise and you can't see anything. 00:36:32.423 --> 00:36:34.505 And I remember like, and so the sound, 00:36:34.945 --> 00:36:36.907 the sound of people screaming and not 00:36:36.927 --> 00:36:39.108 being able to see anything and it was 00:36:39.347 --> 00:36:41.148 i remember being terrified but i was like 00:36:41.289 --> 00:36:44.869 muscling through it and so i i did 00:36:45.309 --> 00:36:47.570 like i tell my partner this and she's 00:36:47.590 --> 00:36:52.052 like you're weird um because like i closed 00:36:52.112 --> 00:36:54.853 my eyes and that made it better somehow 00:36:55.173 --> 00:36:56.554 i'm not entirely sure how because you 00:36:56.574 --> 00:36:57.954 couldn't see anything anyway but it made 00:36:57.994 --> 00:37:00.175 it better for me and then that's how 00:37:00.235 --> 00:37:01.476 i got through that that 00:37:01.956 --> 00:37:04.159 initial sort of terror of like roller 00:37:04.179 --> 00:37:05.860 coasters as i would just close my eyes 00:37:06.240 --> 00:37:07.802 but like now but like i remember that 00:37:07.842 --> 00:37:10.264 like it was so um there's so much 00:37:10.304 --> 00:37:12.945 of of that it wasn't even like it 00:37:12.965 --> 00:37:14.608 wasn't even the ride itself like the ride 00:37:14.628 --> 00:37:16.228 is almost fine it was like all of 00:37:16.248 --> 00:37:18.010 the lead up it's like the the ramp 00:37:18.130 --> 00:37:20.092 up the hill is like hearing the sounds 00:37:20.132 --> 00:37:21.492 and hearing all of the other stuff and 00:37:21.512 --> 00:37:22.773 the sound of the coaster itself and like 00:37:22.813 --> 00:37:24.516 everything that was the scary part like 00:37:24.576 --> 00:37:26.336 once you get going it's like it's thirty 00:37:26.416 --> 00:37:28.418 seconds of your life like it doesn't even 00:37:28.478 --> 00:37:29.440 it's nothing yeah 00:37:30.704 --> 00:37:32.726 So I guess that click, 00:37:32.746 --> 00:37:35.528 click up the hill is what the walking 00:37:35.568 --> 00:37:36.429 up to the stage is like. 00:37:36.449 --> 00:37:37.351 The anticipation. 00:37:37.431 --> 00:37:38.512 Yeah. 00:37:38.632 --> 00:37:41.514 And I hadn't realized just how big of 00:37:41.554 --> 00:37:44.297 a component that was in my enjoyment of 00:37:44.336 --> 00:37:47.018 roller coasters until I went and didn't 00:37:47.039 --> 00:37:47.800 feel it anymore. 00:37:48.521 --> 00:37:48.981 And I was like, 00:37:49.001 --> 00:37:50.362 this is actually really disappointing. 00:37:52.043 --> 00:37:52.764 What am I going to... 00:37:52.864 --> 00:37:54.445 I'm going to have to do... 00:37:55.547 --> 00:37:59.469 more crazy like something because i this 00:37:59.509 --> 00:38:02.889 is like not i'm not getting nervous um 00:38:02.929 --> 00:38:05.451 skydiving yeah i mean like we've talked 00:38:05.471 --> 00:38:07.112 about it a bunch of times actually like 00:38:07.132 --> 00:38:09.373 me and my husband um so 00:38:10.168 --> 00:38:14.849 Yeah, I've been taking aerial classes, 00:38:14.909 --> 00:38:15.769 aerial arts classes. 00:38:16.050 --> 00:38:18.452 And so for me, 00:38:18.492 --> 00:38:19.411 heights is a thing for me. 00:38:20.532 --> 00:38:22.112 But now I can climb up a silk 00:38:22.172 --> 00:38:23.153 or whatever and be up at the top 00:38:23.173 --> 00:38:24.634 and not feel super scared. 00:38:25.755 --> 00:38:27.755 But one of my instructors recently went 00:38:27.795 --> 00:38:29.175 skydiving and took lots of pictures. 00:38:29.195 --> 00:38:30.356 And I'm just looking at the pictures like, 00:38:30.396 --> 00:38:31.797 nope, nope, absolutely not. 00:38:31.976 --> 00:38:32.657 Nope, I can see. 00:38:33.177 --> 00:38:33.757 Fun for you. 00:38:35.978 --> 00:38:36.679 Yeah, yeah. 00:38:36.878 --> 00:38:37.119 Well, 00:38:37.139 --> 00:38:39.559 that's kind of like where I was lukewarm 00:38:39.681 --> 00:38:41.201 on it for a while just because I 00:38:41.240 --> 00:38:41.780 was like, 00:38:41.800 --> 00:38:44.081 I just don't need to do that. 00:38:44.101 --> 00:38:46.262 But now that the roller coaster thing is 00:38:46.342 --> 00:38:51.744 not exciting, I was like, maybe that now. 00:38:51.945 --> 00:38:52.786 What events are you speaking at? 00:38:52.826 --> 00:38:54.085 You mentioned that you have a couple 00:38:54.445 --> 00:38:56.146 speaking gigs. 00:38:56.532 --> 00:38:56.733 Yeah, 00:38:56.914 --> 00:39:00.358 so I'll be speaking at JSConf and ng-conf. 00:39:00.657 --> 00:39:01.818 And they're co located. 00:39:02.039 --> 00:39:04.862 So they're both in the same place in 00:39:05.083 --> 00:39:05.664 mid October. 00:39:05.684 --> 00:39:07.186 So just like a couple of weeks. 00:39:07.246 --> 00:39:08.226 Yeah, yeah. 00:39:08.266 --> 00:39:09.989 Coming right up. 00:39:10.068 --> 00:39:13.233 And then where where can people find you 00:39:13.293 --> 00:39:14.773 on the internet and find your your tiny 00:39:14.793 --> 00:39:15.074 things? 00:39:17.248 --> 00:39:21.552 My tiny things are on my, 00:39:21.592 --> 00:39:24.396 so my like art name or whatever is 00:39:24.795 --> 00:39:25.737 M-I-H-I. 00:39:30.469 --> 00:39:33.570 It's mihi-mini.studio. 00:39:34.449 --> 00:39:38.351 So it's mihi-mini-studio is what it's 00:39:38.391 --> 00:39:38.610 called. 00:39:39.030 --> 00:39:40.710 But in general, 00:39:40.791 --> 00:39:44.692 I think maita.kim slash connect is where 00:39:44.791 --> 00:39:45.652 I, it's, you know, 00:39:45.672 --> 00:39:49.733 my equivalent of Linktree is where I'm 00:39:49.992 --> 00:39:50.492 mostly at. 00:39:50.552 --> 00:39:53.452 And these days, like, social media-wise, 00:39:53.512 --> 00:39:55.833 I spend more time on LinkedIn than other 00:39:55.873 --> 00:39:57.494 platforms, honestly. 00:39:57.514 --> 00:39:57.594 Yeah. 00:39:59.077 --> 00:40:00.559 Not that it's a bad thing. 00:40:00.579 --> 00:40:02.201 I'm acting all disappointed or something. 00:40:02.221 --> 00:40:02.481 Right. 00:40:02.561 --> 00:40:04.222 No, that's true. 00:40:04.282 --> 00:40:06.143 It's been great, 00:40:06.244 --> 00:40:08.666 but it's just funny because I never really 00:40:08.686 --> 00:40:10.148 thought of the platform like that before. 00:40:10.208 --> 00:40:10.507 Right. 00:40:10.648 --> 00:40:10.847 No, 00:40:10.927 --> 00:40:13.670 there's a certain point where I started 00:40:13.751 --> 00:40:17.112 using LinkedIn more for just using it more 00:40:17.152 --> 00:40:18.114 period, honestly, 00:40:19.335 --> 00:40:20.876 because there was a long period of time 00:40:20.896 --> 00:40:21.697 where we're like, okay, 00:40:21.737 --> 00:40:22.677 when I'm looking for a job, 00:40:22.697 --> 00:40:24.278 that's when I care about my LinkedIn. 00:40:24.940 --> 00:40:26.641 But yeah, now I sort of... 00:40:27.822 --> 00:40:30.143 check it more frequently and possibly more 00:40:30.164 --> 00:40:30.985 than other things as well. 00:40:32.005 --> 00:40:33.527 Well, thanks for coming on, Kim. 00:40:34.688 --> 00:40:36.931 And thank you, 00:40:37.050 --> 00:40:39.193 everybody who might be watching this or 00:40:39.233 --> 00:40:40.934 coming to this later or listening to this 00:40:41.054 --> 00:40:42.416 on the audio version. 00:40:43.858 --> 00:40:46.219 And yeah, we'll see you on the internet. 00:40:46.239 --> 00:40:47.320 Great. 00:40:47.722 --> 00:40:48.862 Thanks so much for having me. 00:40:48.943 --> 00:40:49.784 Yep. 00:40:49.923 --> 00:40:50.143 Thanks.