WEBVTT

00:00:19.524 --> 00:00:20.766
Welcome to Community & Code,

00:00:20.846 --> 00:00:22.286
the podcast about the human

00:00:22.347 --> 00:00:24.107
beings behind the commits.

00:00:24.469 --> 00:00:26.109
I'm here today with Tammy Lister,

00:00:26.410 --> 00:00:29.172
who is the co-founder of Guildenberg,

00:00:29.192 --> 00:00:30.333
who's a longtime WordPress

00:00:30.372 --> 00:00:31.214
core contributor,

00:00:32.034 --> 00:00:34.115
has done other sort of producty stuff.

00:00:34.556 --> 00:00:35.676
Welcome to the show, Tammy,

00:00:35.917 --> 00:00:37.138
and tell us about yourself.

00:00:38.155 --> 00:00:38.535
Thank you.

00:00:38.675 --> 00:00:39.495
Yeah.

00:00:39.576 --> 00:00:41.638
So I guess the best role to

00:00:41.678 --> 00:00:42.957
summarize what I do or the

00:00:43.039 --> 00:00:44.278
one that's most fitting is

00:00:44.379 --> 00:00:45.420
a product engineer.

00:00:46.080 --> 00:00:47.361
I like to do most or touch

00:00:47.400 --> 00:00:49.463
most things with product

00:00:50.262 --> 00:00:51.844
and I do lots of different things.

00:00:51.884 --> 00:00:53.265
So I generally like to work

00:00:53.284 --> 00:00:54.045
with people with products.

00:00:54.066 --> 00:00:56.127
So in Guildenberg, what we do is we do.

00:00:57.148 --> 00:00:57.768
we call it product

00:00:57.789 --> 00:00:59.591
consultancy but we do all

00:00:59.612 --> 00:01:01.454
the way across from have

00:01:01.473 --> 00:01:02.536
you got an idea that's

00:01:02.636 --> 00:01:03.877
awesome we can help you

00:01:04.177 --> 00:01:06.140
through to you have an idea

00:01:06.240 --> 00:01:07.481
how do you do partnerships

00:01:07.561 --> 00:01:08.804
how do you kind of get that

00:01:08.863 --> 00:01:10.606
idea out how do you scale

00:01:10.625 --> 00:01:13.009
it and how do you if you

00:01:13.149 --> 00:01:14.491
are someone who's looking for

00:01:14.871 --> 00:01:15.811
products as well so if

00:01:15.851 --> 00:01:18.612
you're a host or if you are

00:01:18.953 --> 00:01:20.813
a looking to collaborate so

00:01:21.433 --> 00:01:22.174
lots of different work

00:01:22.194 --> 00:01:23.914
there that I do and also my

00:01:23.933 --> 00:01:25.213
core work I like to do a

00:01:25.274 --> 00:01:26.155
range of different things

00:01:26.254 --> 00:01:27.355
including operations as

00:01:27.394 --> 00:01:28.575
well so as long as it's

00:01:28.614 --> 00:01:29.894
product I'm super happy to

00:01:29.935 --> 00:01:30.715
get involved in it.

00:01:31.256 --> 00:01:33.775
Yeah talk about Guildenberg

00:01:33.816 --> 00:01:34.415
a little bit what's a

00:01:34.736 --> 00:01:35.736
what's a Guildenberg and

00:01:35.796 --> 00:01:36.516
how did that come to be?

00:01:37.581 --> 00:01:38.382
So it's not a Pokemon,

00:01:38.402 --> 00:01:39.861
which is kind of what I

00:01:39.902 --> 00:01:41.683
thought it should be.

00:01:42.362 --> 00:01:44.563
So it started out, Jonathan Wald,

00:01:45.004 --> 00:01:46.004
he started doing it.

00:01:47.105 --> 00:01:48.686
It's an interesting thing of,

00:01:48.885 --> 00:01:50.227
it's a project that has had

00:01:50.326 --> 00:01:51.647
other co-founders and it's

00:01:51.686 --> 00:01:52.628
kind of evolved.

00:01:53.147 --> 00:01:54.968
So currently it is Jonathan Wald,

00:01:55.709 --> 00:01:57.170
Luke Harbus and myself.

00:01:58.409 --> 00:01:59.070
And Luke,

00:01:59.570 --> 00:02:02.591
he works kind of a combination of,

00:02:02.652 --> 00:02:04.472
he also works doing projects

00:02:04.632 --> 00:02:07.313
plug-in reviews as well and

00:02:07.394 --> 00:02:09.135
I also work on core so we

00:02:09.174 --> 00:02:10.355
had that kind of hybrid

00:02:10.396 --> 00:02:11.876
working with core as well

00:02:12.537 --> 00:02:14.837
insights and what it is is

00:02:15.078 --> 00:02:16.759
that we work with people

00:02:16.819 --> 00:02:18.400
who are anywhere on their

00:02:18.420 --> 00:02:20.240
product journey or anywhere

00:02:20.281 --> 00:02:21.340
who are trying to work with

00:02:21.361 --> 00:02:24.483
products and we cooperate with them and

00:02:25.022 --> 00:02:26.064
Either give them advice on

00:02:26.104 --> 00:02:27.847
that space or we try and

00:02:27.947 --> 00:02:28.768
match them with different

00:02:28.807 --> 00:02:29.568
products as well.

00:02:29.848 --> 00:02:30.909
So it's a whole different range.

00:02:30.969 --> 00:02:31.811
There's so many different

00:02:31.830 --> 00:02:32.832
things that we try and do.

00:02:33.013 --> 00:02:34.775
It could be I might be doing

00:02:34.895 --> 00:02:36.197
a product review.

00:02:36.377 --> 00:02:37.998
I might be trying to match a product.

00:02:38.079 --> 00:02:39.400
I might be trying to find

00:02:39.520 --> 00:02:40.801
out how two products can

00:02:40.842 --> 00:02:41.663
work together or product

00:02:41.682 --> 00:02:42.783
and host can work together.

00:02:43.145 --> 00:02:43.985
Lots of different things.

00:02:44.629 --> 00:02:44.870
Yeah.

00:02:44.949 --> 00:02:48.152
And so we, I say we meaning Pantheon,

00:02:48.193 --> 00:02:49.433
this isn't the Pantheon podcast,

00:02:49.454 --> 00:02:51.055
but I happen to work in Pantheon.

00:02:51.695 --> 00:02:53.657
We've been talking to y'all

00:02:53.736 --> 00:02:55.258
in that context for a while.

00:02:55.418 --> 00:02:58.741
And I personally am well

00:02:58.781 --> 00:02:59.882
aware that you have a lot

00:02:59.942 --> 00:03:01.022
of connections with a lot

00:03:01.062 --> 00:03:02.243
of sort of products in the

00:03:02.343 --> 00:03:03.485
WordPress space and even a

00:03:03.525 --> 00:03:04.906
little bit abroad from that.

00:03:06.106 --> 00:03:08.949
But it's the sort of thing that for me as,

00:03:09.088 --> 00:03:09.468
I don't know,

00:03:09.489 --> 00:03:11.950
maybe a skeptical engineer

00:03:12.031 --> 00:03:13.932
dev brain that,

00:03:14.633 --> 00:03:16.313
it feels like like why would

00:03:16.394 --> 00:03:18.034
I want to talk to people to

00:03:18.074 --> 00:03:19.414
tell me what like what is

00:03:19.594 --> 00:03:21.116
what what would I gain but

00:03:21.156 --> 00:03:22.336
obviously you've you've had

00:03:22.355 --> 00:03:23.097
that relationship with a

00:03:23.116 --> 00:03:24.176
lot of different people so

00:03:24.197 --> 00:03:25.578
what do what do people what

00:03:25.598 --> 00:03:28.019
do companies um typically

00:03:28.079 --> 00:03:30.180
come to gildenberg looking for

00:03:31.223 --> 00:03:31.543
Yeah,

00:03:31.582 --> 00:03:33.185
so I think it depends on where you

00:03:33.205 --> 00:03:33.985
are in your journey.

00:03:34.085 --> 00:03:35.126
If you are,

00:03:35.847 --> 00:03:37.747
you generally are at a growth

00:03:37.788 --> 00:03:38.989
point in your journey when

00:03:39.028 --> 00:03:40.971
you need someone else to

00:03:41.610 --> 00:03:42.352
collaborate with.

00:03:42.572 --> 00:03:43.812
So that can be that you've

00:03:43.832 --> 00:03:44.894
been on your own,

00:03:45.954 --> 00:03:47.254
rocking it with a plugin.

00:03:47.616 --> 00:03:49.137
And now you're like, oh,

00:03:50.276 --> 00:03:50.937
What if?

00:03:51.257 --> 00:03:52.557
What could be my next stage?

00:03:53.358 --> 00:03:55.117
How do I grow this?

00:03:55.859 --> 00:03:57.579
And rather than you could

00:03:58.058 --> 00:03:59.038
suddenly go out and employ

00:03:59.079 --> 00:04:00.800
lots of people and you

00:04:00.819 --> 00:04:02.020
could suddenly make that leap.

00:04:02.340 --> 00:04:03.159
But you probably don't want

00:04:03.181 --> 00:04:03.980
to do that straight off.

00:04:04.020 --> 00:04:05.020
You probably want to see

00:04:05.100 --> 00:04:06.580
whether you could do some partnership,

00:04:06.621 --> 00:04:07.361
whether you could

00:04:07.681 --> 00:04:09.141
collaborate with some people fractionally,

00:04:09.442 --> 00:04:10.921
whether you could do that kind of work.

00:04:10.961 --> 00:04:12.802
So that's something that we step into.

00:04:13.742 --> 00:04:15.123
We never act as an employee.

00:04:15.163 --> 00:04:16.284
That's not something that we

00:04:16.324 --> 00:04:17.265
kind of want to do.

00:04:18.066 --> 00:04:20.068
Or we act with people where

00:04:20.087 --> 00:04:22.049
they're just really trying

00:04:22.068 --> 00:04:23.430
to do massive growth.

00:04:24.069 --> 00:04:24.790
That's one thing.

00:04:24.850 --> 00:04:25.771
So we've done that with

00:04:25.792 --> 00:04:26.972
hosting companies as well.

00:04:27.492 --> 00:04:28.834
And often...

00:04:29.514 --> 00:04:31.376
You can have a hundred and one ideas,

00:04:31.455 --> 00:04:32.796
but working out which of

00:04:32.817 --> 00:04:33.617
those ideas you should be

00:04:33.657 --> 00:04:36.000
doing is often hard if you

00:04:36.060 --> 00:04:36.901
are within the company.

00:04:37.281 --> 00:04:38.461
And it's a lot easier if

00:04:38.482 --> 00:04:39.622
you're outside to run

00:04:39.663 --> 00:04:41.324
workshops and give you that perspective.

00:04:41.665 --> 00:04:43.466
Similar, if you have a product,

00:04:43.867 --> 00:04:44.908
you probably can think

00:04:44.968 --> 00:04:46.189
there are forty hundred

00:04:46.228 --> 00:04:47.089
things that are really

00:04:47.129 --> 00:04:48.211
important that you should do.

00:04:49.052 --> 00:04:50.353
But outside perspective can

00:04:50.413 --> 00:04:52.074
actually tell you what the one thing is.

00:04:52.495 --> 00:04:53.656
is going to get you that

00:04:53.697 --> 00:04:54.598
partnership that's going to

00:04:54.617 --> 00:04:55.959
get you to that next level

00:04:56.218 --> 00:04:57.240
because you can prove that

00:04:57.259 --> 00:04:58.141
that partnership is going

00:04:58.161 --> 00:04:59.041
to get you to that next

00:04:59.062 --> 00:05:01.264
level and have that conversation.

00:05:01.305 --> 00:05:03.346
So it's always at that kind of,

00:05:03.788 --> 00:05:04.668
I don't like crisis,

00:05:04.788 --> 00:05:06.831
it's always at the stress point, right?

00:05:06.870 --> 00:05:08.072
But stress is a good thing

00:05:08.112 --> 00:05:09.153
from a business perspective

00:05:09.173 --> 00:05:10.053
because stress can mean

00:05:10.074 --> 00:05:11.915
that it's a good stress because it's a,

00:05:12.576 --> 00:05:13.737
if we get through this,

00:05:13.817 --> 00:05:16.399
it's gonna be really productive for us.

00:05:16.519 --> 00:05:20.600
But it's a stress test of, can we grow?

00:05:20.641 --> 00:05:21.862
Can we do this?

00:05:22.701 --> 00:05:23.141
So yeah,

00:05:23.182 --> 00:05:24.843
those are the kind of conversations.

00:05:25.983 --> 00:05:27.625
I've also had it where someone's like,

00:05:28.285 --> 00:05:29.846
can this plugin even survive anymore?

00:05:29.886 --> 00:05:31.725
Should this plugin survive in this space?

00:05:32.766 --> 00:05:33.607
What does it do?

00:05:33.927 --> 00:05:35.367
How does it pivot in the

00:05:35.387 --> 00:05:36.327
changing WordPress?

00:05:36.908 --> 00:05:38.009
So there's lots of different

00:05:38.228 --> 00:05:39.088
kind of conversations.

00:05:39.108 --> 00:05:40.089
We've worked with BigCommerce.

00:05:40.129 --> 00:05:42.810
We've worked with a range of

00:05:42.850 --> 00:05:44.391
different people in that.

00:05:44.432 --> 00:05:46.411
So yeah, it doesn't vary.

00:05:47.192 --> 00:05:48.233
And it started out just

00:05:48.273 --> 00:05:49.454
being less than part-time.

00:05:49.494 --> 00:05:50.774
It's now kind of part-time work.

00:05:51.855 --> 00:05:53.735
And it's really interesting

00:05:53.795 --> 00:05:55.055
what we do across those.

00:05:55.767 --> 00:05:56.588
Yeah.

00:05:56.728 --> 00:05:58.488
Yeah, that's really cool.

00:05:58.968 --> 00:05:59.108
Well,

00:05:59.129 --> 00:06:01.550
tell us about your sort of journey

00:06:01.730 --> 00:06:03.911
into WordPress and or tech.

00:06:03.932 --> 00:06:04.091
I mean,

00:06:04.112 --> 00:06:05.771
this isn't necessarily a WordPress

00:06:05.812 --> 00:06:06.793
specific podcast.

00:06:06.812 --> 00:06:07.872
It's more broadly,

00:06:08.553 --> 00:06:11.014
people who do techie things in general.

00:06:11.774 --> 00:06:15.797
What brought you to the the

00:06:16.057 --> 00:06:18.437
nerdy Cody side of things?

00:06:18.478 --> 00:06:18.517
So

00:06:19.550 --> 00:06:22.112
I think by my generation.

00:06:22.211 --> 00:06:23.793
So I'm a nineteen seventy five.

00:06:23.872 --> 00:06:26.134
So I think I was like born

00:06:26.314 --> 00:06:29.016
at the time that tech formed around me.

00:06:29.416 --> 00:06:31.358
So I think most people who

00:06:32.059 --> 00:06:35.302
like I had my fiftieth a few weeks, well,

00:06:35.401 --> 00:06:36.523
a month or so ago now.

00:06:36.562 --> 00:06:39.524
But I think anyone who is that age,

00:06:40.745 --> 00:06:42.406
all the major tech things

00:06:42.466 --> 00:06:43.348
kind of happened.

00:06:43.848 --> 00:06:44.088
So

00:06:45.161 --> 00:06:46.963
We are of that, right?

00:06:47.043 --> 00:06:49.105
Like it was there.

00:06:50.206 --> 00:06:51.706
Computers happened,

00:06:51.786 --> 00:06:54.307
the first computer at like primary school,

00:06:54.327 --> 00:06:54.988
which is like the first

00:06:55.009 --> 00:06:56.269
school that you go to in England,

00:06:56.649 --> 00:06:58.331
happened to me, right?

00:06:58.451 --> 00:07:00.892
Like the first computer labs

00:07:01.192 --> 00:07:02.994
at second happened to me.

00:07:03.334 --> 00:07:05.396
So I've always been really curious,

00:07:05.495 --> 00:07:07.596
and this is maybe my mindset,

00:07:07.896 --> 00:07:09.519
taking things apart, right?

00:07:10.338 --> 00:07:11.759
So I was the kid that would

00:07:11.899 --> 00:07:15.281
try and break things, take things apart.

00:07:15.903 --> 00:07:17.483
So computers to me were just

00:07:17.543 --> 00:07:20.886
another way of extending that.

00:07:21.346 --> 00:07:22.968
I was kind of surrounded by technology.

00:07:23.007 --> 00:07:23.947
I was quite lucky that I was

00:07:23.987 --> 00:07:25.649
enabled to kind of have that.

00:07:26.410 --> 00:07:27.430
And very early on,

00:07:27.670 --> 00:07:29.072
the only problem I had was,

00:07:29.192 --> 00:07:30.793
and I'll be quite honest about it,

00:07:30.952 --> 00:07:31.632
was my gender.

00:07:32.374 --> 00:07:34.295
And very early on, it was, oh,

00:07:34.314 --> 00:07:35.096
you're a bit arty.

00:07:35.136 --> 00:07:36.295
Well, you're also a woman.

00:07:36.557 --> 00:07:38.117
Therefore, you must go and study art.

00:07:41.100 --> 00:07:42.800
we don't quite do now, which is better.

00:07:44.903 --> 00:07:45.502
But then again,

00:07:45.543 --> 00:07:46.624
I was always doing technical art.

00:07:46.644 --> 00:07:48.466
So it was photography and

00:07:48.505 --> 00:07:49.706
painting were my art form.

00:07:49.747 --> 00:07:50.906
So I was always trying to do

00:07:50.947 --> 00:07:51.827
something technical.

00:07:52.889 --> 00:07:54.410
I was always trying to do like early,

00:07:54.990 --> 00:07:55.990
trying to do early video,

00:07:56.372 --> 00:07:58.173
which is also hilarious to

00:07:58.192 --> 00:07:59.394
think of how we used to do it.

00:08:00.214 --> 00:08:02.637
And then I went and after trying to do art,

00:08:03.216 --> 00:08:04.398
and this is a long story

00:08:04.478 --> 00:08:05.598
because technology is long.

00:08:05.858 --> 00:08:08.922
So I had always been like,

00:08:09.541 --> 00:08:11.242
trying to have technology,

00:08:11.322 --> 00:08:12.562
trying to use it in

00:08:12.663 --> 00:08:13.803
whatever way that I could.

00:08:15.144 --> 00:08:16.946
Even though like I was on that path,

00:08:17.185 --> 00:08:18.906
I now know it was maybe the wrong path,

00:08:18.966 --> 00:08:19.586
but you know,

00:08:20.646 --> 00:08:21.487
things were maybe more

00:08:21.528 --> 00:08:23.247
locked in those days from a

00:08:23.288 --> 00:08:24.209
gender perspective.

00:08:24.928 --> 00:08:25.889
And also really like

00:08:26.649 --> 00:08:27.790
the web wasn't a thing then.

00:08:27.810 --> 00:08:29.192
And I think we have to kind

00:08:29.213 --> 00:08:30.454
of have a reality snap

00:08:30.494 --> 00:08:31.894
about what was around.

00:08:32.035 --> 00:08:34.918
The web was Linux, you know, the like,

00:08:35.819 --> 00:08:37.761
sorry, links, the browser,

00:08:37.821 --> 00:08:39.322
like that was it, right?

00:08:39.403 --> 00:08:41.223
And it wasn't even,

00:08:42.105 --> 00:08:44.547
formed, it was those kind of things.

00:08:44.966 --> 00:08:46.247
And I remember being at

00:08:46.468 --> 00:08:49.391
university and MUDS was kind of the thing,

00:08:49.430 --> 00:08:50.591
like that would be how you

00:08:50.631 --> 00:08:51.472
would interact.

00:08:51.913 --> 00:08:52.793
We didn't have graphical...

00:08:54.235 --> 00:08:56.437
I sound super archaic saying this, but...

00:08:57.998 --> 00:08:59.278
But that was the thing.

00:08:59.740 --> 00:09:00.961
And then when I did art,

00:09:01.321 --> 00:09:04.604
I graduated and I thought I like eating.

00:09:04.783 --> 00:09:05.745
So I'm going to be training

00:09:05.764 --> 00:09:06.846
computers because there's

00:09:06.865 --> 00:09:07.826
this new thing called web.

00:09:08.648 --> 00:09:11.210
And I hear you can like combine images.

00:09:11.289 --> 00:09:11.850
And you remember those

00:09:11.890 --> 00:09:14.613
rotating gifts that like

00:09:15.013 --> 00:09:16.674
the globes and things.

00:09:16.695 --> 00:09:19.277
So I learned that and

00:09:19.657 --> 00:09:20.918
haven't kind of learned.

00:09:21.599 --> 00:09:22.980
look back since then,

00:09:23.940 --> 00:09:24.879
I learned about the new

00:09:24.941 --> 00:09:26.821
language called PHP at that stage.

00:09:26.900 --> 00:09:31.003
Again, I am super dating myself.

00:09:31.023 --> 00:09:32.583
But my first ever computer,

00:09:32.604 --> 00:09:33.663
and this really will date me,

00:09:33.703 --> 00:09:34.764
was an Acorn Electron.

00:09:35.345 --> 00:09:37.666
And I don't know who would even know that.

00:09:37.686 --> 00:09:40.027
I don't even know what that is.

00:09:40.047 --> 00:09:41.307
So in England we had BBC

00:09:41.327 --> 00:09:42.408
computers and the Acorn

00:09:42.427 --> 00:09:43.568
Electron was even a rarer

00:09:43.609 --> 00:09:45.328
version of the BBC computer.

00:09:45.609 --> 00:09:46.909
And it was BBC Basic.

00:09:47.389 --> 00:09:48.311
And it was like the...

00:09:49.571 --> 00:09:54.115
Yeah, it's like, it's not a language,

00:09:54.155 --> 00:09:56.217
but it's very Python-esque

00:09:56.318 --> 00:09:57.720
is the best way I would describe it.

00:09:57.779 --> 00:09:59.522
That was my first language that I learned.

00:10:00.842 --> 00:10:01.624
Again, you know,

00:10:01.644 --> 00:10:03.145
turning down the cassette

00:10:03.186 --> 00:10:04.626
because the sound was too

00:10:04.667 --> 00:10:05.908
loud and all those things.

00:10:05.928 --> 00:10:07.551
So yeah, that's a long-winded one.

00:10:08.471 --> 00:10:08.912
But yeah,

00:10:08.951 --> 00:10:10.234
that was how I kind of fell into

00:10:10.333 --> 00:10:11.774
it and then fell into Linux.

00:10:12.014 --> 00:10:12.796
And slowly,

00:10:13.416 --> 00:10:15.018
all the technologies happened around me.

00:10:15.057 --> 00:10:18.059
So I've been very lucky that it's formed.

00:10:18.120 --> 00:10:20.022
So I've got to learn at the pace.

00:10:20.863 --> 00:10:22.043
I've got to be able to adopt

00:10:22.144 --> 00:10:24.686
it at that rate because I've been in it.

00:10:24.706 --> 00:10:24.725
I...

00:10:27.648 --> 00:10:29.229
I remember... So I didn't

00:10:29.249 --> 00:10:31.289
get my first computer until

00:10:31.350 --> 00:10:32.291
I was in high school.

00:10:32.431 --> 00:10:33.432
So I was using, like,

00:10:33.471 --> 00:10:35.293
computer labs and other things.

00:10:36.374 --> 00:10:38.034
The first computer I used was probably,

00:10:38.075 --> 00:10:40.096
like, an Apple IIe at, like, you know,

00:10:40.196 --> 00:10:41.817
a tiny little closet that

00:10:41.856 --> 00:10:45.538
was refactored into a school, like,

00:10:45.619 --> 00:10:46.460
computer lab.

00:10:46.580 --> 00:10:47.320
And you played, like,

00:10:47.419 --> 00:10:48.860
Math Blaster and whatever.

00:10:50.542 --> 00:10:52.322
And... But I remember...

00:10:53.663 --> 00:10:56.707
I remember when the web was a thing,

00:10:56.888 --> 00:10:59.390
like a new thing and going

00:10:59.431 --> 00:11:00.852
to the library and getting

00:11:00.913 --> 00:11:02.235
on their computer that had

00:11:02.274 --> 00:11:04.057
internet access and like

00:11:04.216 --> 00:11:05.258
just sitting in front of a

00:11:05.337 --> 00:11:09.023
Yahoo screen and spending two hours, uh,

00:11:09.503 --> 00:11:11.724
Just clicking on links and

00:11:11.783 --> 00:11:14.164
like cross links and like, you know,

00:11:14.206 --> 00:11:16.287
like they're used web rings was a thing.

00:11:16.307 --> 00:11:17.826
Yeah.

00:11:17.866 --> 00:11:18.927
But when I finally did get

00:11:18.967 --> 00:11:21.609
my computer and I figured

00:11:21.649 --> 00:11:23.090
out how to get it on the Internet,

00:11:24.331 --> 00:11:25.871
the choice that I made and

00:11:26.111 --> 00:11:27.471
I did make a choice at a

00:11:27.491 --> 00:11:30.913
certain point to pay money for access.

00:11:31.354 --> 00:11:33.215
But I decided that the thing

00:11:33.235 --> 00:11:35.336
that I wanted to do was I

00:11:35.355 --> 00:11:36.517
was more interested in

00:11:36.576 --> 00:11:37.937
connecting to BBSs.

00:11:38.618 --> 00:11:39.458
Um,

00:11:39.479 --> 00:11:41.140
then I was getting access to the

00:11:41.181 --> 00:11:42.001
internet because I think at

00:11:42.022 --> 00:11:43.663
the time I either hadn't

00:11:43.702 --> 00:11:45.404
figured out that you could,

00:11:45.684 --> 00:11:47.527
or it was not easy to get

00:11:47.626 --> 00:11:49.970
onto the BBSs and talk to human beings.

00:11:50.671 --> 00:11:52.793
Um, as it was to, uh,

00:11:53.513 --> 00:11:54.835
like they were two separate things.

00:11:54.875 --> 00:11:55.355
And I think I,

00:11:55.515 --> 00:11:56.395
I eventually figured out

00:11:56.476 --> 00:11:57.837
later that you could use like, I don't,

00:11:57.878 --> 00:11:58.818
can't remember what the stupid.

00:11:59.158 --> 00:12:00.380
windows program at the time

00:12:00.400 --> 00:12:02.724
was like uh but to like you

00:12:02.744 --> 00:12:04.184
could telnet into the uh

00:12:04.345 --> 00:12:06.628
into the bbs but for a long

00:12:06.668 --> 00:12:07.548
time it was like you had to

00:12:07.609 --> 00:12:08.870
actually dial a phone

00:12:08.910 --> 00:12:10.793
number to access the bbs

00:12:10.852 --> 00:12:11.453
and so I was paying

00:12:15.918 --> 00:12:17.080
so yeah I mean I think we we

00:12:17.100 --> 00:12:18.301
sort of came up in the same

00:12:18.321 --> 00:12:20.562
sort of era where the web

00:12:20.923 --> 00:12:21.844
and a lot of that there

00:12:21.903 --> 00:12:23.566
wasn't available in England

00:12:23.666 --> 00:12:24.366
which is kind of the

00:12:24.407 --> 00:12:25.187
interesting thing so

00:12:25.267 --> 00:12:26.729
England has even like less

00:12:26.808 --> 00:12:28.450
stuff like that available

00:12:28.850 --> 00:12:30.991
and I remember like reading

00:12:31.072 --> 00:12:32.553
on forums about like what

00:12:32.614 --> 00:12:33.815
America had available

00:12:34.495 --> 00:12:35.975
wanting to have things and

00:12:35.995 --> 00:12:37.557
then suddenly things like

00:12:37.836 --> 00:12:39.097
you'd be able to like pour

00:12:39.238 --> 00:12:40.980
in and do so you you had to

00:12:41.019 --> 00:12:43.240
get very hyper terminal

00:12:43.841 --> 00:12:45.442
hyper terminal was the yeah

00:12:45.482 --> 00:12:46.503
you had to get very

00:12:46.543 --> 00:12:47.703
technically so the thing

00:12:47.744 --> 00:12:49.205
was if you were into these

00:12:49.225 --> 00:12:51.025
things and you were in

00:12:51.245 --> 00:12:52.246
certain countries you had

00:12:52.267 --> 00:12:54.869
to get very curious and you

00:12:54.889 --> 00:12:56.190
had to get very good at

00:12:56.230 --> 00:12:57.250
getting around different

00:12:57.269 --> 00:12:58.130
things because also like

00:12:58.150 --> 00:12:59.751
that we we weren't

00:12:59.792 --> 00:13:00.732
traveling we weren't

00:13:00.773 --> 00:13:01.913
getting on planes and going

00:13:01.933 --> 00:13:03.735
into it we were kids right like

00:13:04.335 --> 00:13:06.255
You weren't doing stuff like that.

00:13:06.275 --> 00:13:07.456
And there wasn't internet to

00:13:07.537 --> 00:13:08.918
tell you how to do things.

00:13:08.957 --> 00:13:10.217
Like you couldn't just do it.

00:13:10.337 --> 00:13:11.719
And there weren't mobile phones,

00:13:11.979 --> 00:13:13.539
which is also a really interesting thing.

00:13:13.759 --> 00:13:14.341
Right.

00:13:15.000 --> 00:13:16.961
And this was the thing I had

00:13:16.981 --> 00:13:17.741
the reflection the other day.

00:13:17.761 --> 00:13:18.702
It's like,

00:13:18.743 --> 00:13:20.604
I used to build every computer

00:13:20.764 --> 00:13:21.904
that I had and I used to

00:13:21.945 --> 00:13:23.405
take such pride in, you know,

00:13:23.426 --> 00:13:25.386
ground yourself when you put your memory,

00:13:25.807 --> 00:13:26.407
like that was such,

00:13:26.986 --> 00:13:28.368
I don't know whether that was worth it.

00:13:28.388 --> 00:13:28.668
I'm sorry.

00:13:30.068 --> 00:13:32.291
I didn't know that you were supposed to.

00:13:32.331 --> 00:13:34.013
So I didn't, if that means anything.

00:13:34.113 --> 00:13:35.394
The thing with me is

00:13:35.774 --> 00:13:36.995
culturally and also me,

00:13:37.015 --> 00:13:37.876
you tell me a rule,

00:13:37.897 --> 00:13:40.698
I'm going to follow it.

00:13:40.719 --> 00:13:42.801
So yeah, you're meant to, I think,

00:13:43.062 --> 00:13:44.222
so I did hardware.

00:13:44.243 --> 00:13:45.443
I did like a course in it

00:13:45.484 --> 00:13:46.183
and you're meant to let

00:13:46.203 --> 00:13:46.965
this thing around your

00:13:46.985 --> 00:13:48.086
wrist and then ground yourself.

00:13:48.326 --> 00:13:49.668
So I think that was my problem.

00:13:49.807 --> 00:13:50.548
I got told.

00:13:51.629 --> 00:13:52.490
Yeah.

00:13:53.171 --> 00:13:54.150
But I also probably was

00:13:54.191 --> 00:13:55.792
doing it on a super dusty

00:13:55.831 --> 00:13:56.652
floor at the time.

00:13:56.751 --> 00:13:58.533
So I was negating anything

00:13:58.552 --> 00:14:00.653
that was going on.

00:14:00.972 --> 00:14:05.014
But I was grounding.

00:14:05.034 --> 00:14:08.176
We took such pride in that.

00:14:08.296 --> 00:14:11.376
And then you would paint or

00:14:11.417 --> 00:14:13.216
you would mark the outside

00:14:13.256 --> 00:14:14.038
casing because it was your

00:14:14.158 --> 00:14:15.937
only thing that you could.

00:14:16.018 --> 00:14:17.259
Or your keyboard or your

00:14:17.298 --> 00:14:18.658
mouse was your only thing.

00:14:19.836 --> 00:14:21.518
And then on your massive,

00:14:21.538 --> 00:14:22.278
which is probably why I

00:14:22.298 --> 00:14:23.219
have such bad eyesight,

00:14:23.239 --> 00:14:24.539
your massive monitors,

00:14:24.580 --> 00:14:26.881
you'd put like little

00:14:26.902 --> 00:14:28.962
creatures and stuff and story.

00:14:29.803 --> 00:14:31.544
And it was always this thing

00:14:31.644 --> 00:14:33.245
of like personalization.

00:14:33.525 --> 00:14:34.966
And I think you can kind of

00:14:34.986 --> 00:14:35.807
maybe tell someone that's

00:14:35.827 --> 00:14:36.727
going up from that with the

00:14:36.768 --> 00:14:37.729
stickers we still have on

00:14:37.769 --> 00:14:39.370
our laptops or the fact

00:14:39.389 --> 00:14:40.691
we're still trying to like

00:14:40.730 --> 00:14:42.030
have that personalization.

00:14:43.091 --> 00:14:44.754
But being able to grow and

00:14:44.793 --> 00:14:45.955
have technology around that,

00:14:45.995 --> 00:14:46.654
the interface,

00:14:46.754 --> 00:14:49.677
I think it has helped us be able to,

00:14:50.697 --> 00:14:50.979
like...

00:14:51.812 --> 00:14:52.793
I had a reflection every day.

00:14:53.052 --> 00:14:55.836
If you turned up and you're a kid now,

00:14:57.157 --> 00:14:58.437
I don't know where you start.

00:15:01.440 --> 00:15:02.221
I think my head would

00:15:02.301 --> 00:15:04.722
explode with having to know everything.

00:15:05.124 --> 00:15:07.346
So at least I got to be

00:15:07.446 --> 00:15:08.826
onboarded with all of this

00:15:08.907 --> 00:15:10.828
when my brain was a little

00:15:10.849 --> 00:15:11.609
bit more flexible.

00:15:11.629 --> 00:15:13.130
Yeah.

00:15:13.811 --> 00:15:14.791
yeah so my first computer

00:15:14.811 --> 00:15:16.351
was an nec which also

00:15:16.371 --> 00:15:17.852
doesn't exist so bbc

00:15:17.893 --> 00:15:18.753
computers don't exist and

00:15:18.932 --> 00:15:20.573
nec is obviously nintendo

00:15:20.634 --> 00:15:21.734
entertainment corporation

00:15:22.073 --> 00:15:22.833
because there was a period

00:15:22.854 --> 00:15:23.575
of time where they made

00:15:23.615 --> 00:15:24.894
computers uh not a very

00:15:24.914 --> 00:15:27.255
long period of time um and

00:15:27.296 --> 00:15:29.017
then after that I did sort

00:15:29.037 --> 00:15:31.857
of graduate to building my own computer

00:15:32.758 --> 00:15:33.499
because I was reading

00:15:33.619 --> 00:15:35.519
computer magazines a lot at the time.

00:15:35.559 --> 00:15:36.620
And so I was hearing all

00:15:36.640 --> 00:15:37.841
this stuff and looking at

00:15:37.981 --> 00:15:38.741
ads and figuring out.

00:15:39.162 --> 00:15:40.822
I priced out my computer for

00:15:41.443 --> 00:15:42.183
months and months and

00:15:42.224 --> 00:15:43.284
months and figured out how

00:15:43.304 --> 00:15:45.886
much I needed to save to get a computer.

00:15:47.006 --> 00:15:48.148
And also because I was

00:15:48.187 --> 00:15:49.188
reading computer magazines,

00:15:49.229 --> 00:15:50.690
I was reading about things like Linux.

00:15:51.309 --> 00:15:52.971
I think I had a copy of a

00:15:53.030 --> 00:15:54.032
couple different Linux

00:15:54.052 --> 00:15:56.413
distributions on CD.

00:15:57.193 --> 00:15:58.354
I think they were on CD.

00:15:58.394 --> 00:15:59.195
I don't think I had any

00:15:59.274 --> 00:16:00.735
floppy disks or anything.

00:16:01.052 --> 00:16:01.351
Yeah, well,

00:16:01.371 --> 00:16:03.033
you generally are on those you

00:16:03.053 --> 00:16:03.653
would have.

00:16:03.673 --> 00:16:07.576
So that's how I got into, I mean,

00:16:07.616 --> 00:16:08.817
Windows would have been in

00:16:08.918 --> 00:16:10.479
like this just about,

00:16:10.499 --> 00:16:11.919
it would have been DOS, I guess,

00:16:12.740 --> 00:16:13.321
just about.

00:16:15.121 --> 00:16:16.644
And then Windows,

00:16:16.903 --> 00:16:19.125
but then Linux was really

00:16:19.184 --> 00:16:20.966
my first kind of operating

00:16:20.986 --> 00:16:23.349
systems because I couldn't

00:16:23.369 --> 00:16:24.249
afford anything else.

00:16:24.750 --> 00:16:26.051
So it was like,

00:16:26.150 --> 00:16:27.051
and you would get the free

00:16:27.091 --> 00:16:28.451
versions on those CDs.

00:16:28.491 --> 00:16:29.572
And a lot of those CDs were

00:16:29.592 --> 00:16:30.514
in secondhand shops.

00:16:30.953 --> 00:16:31.975
So you would pick them up in

00:16:32.034 --> 00:16:33.297
secondhand stores and then

00:16:33.317 --> 00:16:34.538
you'd get the programs.

00:16:34.557 --> 00:16:35.839
They were like super out of date.

00:16:35.918 --> 00:16:35.999
Yep.

00:16:36.078 --> 00:16:36.298
Yep.

00:16:37.279 --> 00:16:38.981
But you were fine to use

00:16:39.001 --> 00:16:39.863
them and you could get like,

00:16:39.883 --> 00:16:41.244
so that was the thing.

00:16:41.264 --> 00:16:41.884
Like you could,

00:16:42.424 --> 00:16:43.466
or you traded them with

00:16:43.505 --> 00:16:44.687
people and people gave them to you.

00:16:44.707 --> 00:16:44.807
Right.

00:16:44.827 --> 00:16:49.231
Um, and it, weird trading going on.

00:16:49.471 --> 00:16:50.874
But distros are passing

00:16:50.894 --> 00:16:52.335
around for people and it

00:16:52.355 --> 00:16:53.836
would always be Linux, uh,

00:16:54.456 --> 00:16:57.138
distribution it was just a

00:16:57.197 --> 00:16:59.538
different time I think so I

00:16:59.558 --> 00:17:00.818
think one of the the first

00:17:00.859 --> 00:17:02.480
kind of art programs I

00:17:02.519 --> 00:17:04.080
learned was through Linux

00:17:04.139 --> 00:17:05.240
rather than through

00:17:05.360 --> 00:17:06.360
anything else and then

00:17:06.421 --> 00:17:08.041
eventually learning okay

00:17:08.480 --> 00:17:09.741
there there's other stuff

00:17:09.761 --> 00:17:11.261
and other applications and

00:17:11.481 --> 00:17:12.763
slowly doing it but having

00:17:12.783 --> 00:17:14.163
to learn it for for work

00:17:14.302 --> 00:17:15.803
roles and then having to

00:17:15.844 --> 00:17:17.283
like hyper speed myself

00:17:17.364 --> 00:17:19.565
onto those kind of platforms but

00:17:20.525 --> 00:17:21.566
I think that that kind of

00:17:21.586 --> 00:17:23.787
got me the foundation of like access,

00:17:24.207 --> 00:17:25.727
being able to give it.

00:17:25.767 --> 00:17:27.347
And I've kind of kept that going,

00:17:28.028 --> 00:17:28.327
hopefully.

00:17:28.347 --> 00:17:31.568
Well, yeah, I mean,

00:17:31.648 --> 00:17:33.229
we met in person a few

00:17:33.269 --> 00:17:36.250
months ago at PressConf.

00:17:36.490 --> 00:17:38.530
And one of the things that I

00:17:38.631 --> 00:17:39.290
remember being really

00:17:39.310 --> 00:17:41.111
impressed by in your talk,

00:17:41.131 --> 00:17:42.511
besides obviously the

00:17:42.551 --> 00:17:43.951
substance was awesome.

00:17:46.053 --> 00:17:48.035
was that all of your slides

00:17:48.095 --> 00:17:49.875
you had hand illustrated.

00:17:50.336 --> 00:17:52.718
Talk about your artistic

00:17:52.837 --> 00:17:56.980
journey and possibly how it, I mean,

00:17:57.019 --> 00:17:57.681
we've talked a little bit

00:17:57.721 --> 00:17:59.781
about how it relates to technology,

00:17:59.821 --> 00:18:00.563
but like, yeah,

00:18:00.583 --> 00:18:01.502
what does that interplay

00:18:01.563 --> 00:18:02.443
kind of look like for you?

00:18:03.070 --> 00:18:03.491
Yeah,

00:18:03.511 --> 00:18:05.374
so originally I kind of gave up on it.

00:18:07.076 --> 00:18:08.116
And I think I gave up on it

00:18:08.136 --> 00:18:10.159
because if you're really,

00:18:10.179 --> 00:18:11.579
really lucky as an artist,

00:18:11.621 --> 00:18:12.721
you get to not starve.

00:18:13.903 --> 00:18:16.286
And I'm not bad at art,

00:18:16.445 --> 00:18:18.929
but I'm not one of the note, point, note,

00:18:18.949 --> 00:18:20.190
point, note, note, note,

00:18:20.210 --> 00:18:23.313
not whatever that leave art

00:18:23.333 --> 00:18:24.834
school and end up in him to

00:18:24.874 --> 00:18:25.714
make a career of it.

00:18:25.855 --> 00:18:26.516
And that's okay.

00:18:26.836 --> 00:18:27.957
It's totally fine.

00:18:28.196 --> 00:18:29.198
Um, uh,

00:18:29.818 --> 00:18:32.622
so I left and starving artist is

00:18:32.642 --> 00:18:34.423
not a look that I wanted to go for.

00:18:35.263 --> 00:18:37.145
Um, uh, and,

00:18:37.766 --> 00:18:38.926
I actually was lucky enough

00:18:38.946 --> 00:18:40.086
that I could retrain.

00:18:40.567 --> 00:18:42.107
I actually, in hindsight,

00:18:42.208 --> 00:18:43.308
I now know I've been kind

00:18:43.348 --> 00:18:44.888
of combining it all the way through.

00:18:45.009 --> 00:18:46.670
I also had studied psychology.

00:18:46.710 --> 00:18:48.111
So I've had like probably

00:18:48.191 --> 00:18:50.030
three careers by the time I

00:18:50.050 --> 00:18:50.832
was quite young.

00:18:50.951 --> 00:18:53.192
And then I just stuck to one for a while.

00:18:54.133 --> 00:18:55.233
And the way that I think I'm

00:18:55.253 --> 00:18:57.233
doing is now as I'm getting older,

00:18:57.275 --> 00:18:58.615
I'm kind of rediscovering

00:18:58.674 --> 00:19:00.496
those careers and getting back to them.

00:19:00.875 --> 00:19:02.837
It's a weird kind of mind shift,

00:19:02.857 --> 00:19:04.979
but I think a lot of people do that.

00:19:05.318 --> 00:19:06.881
I don't think that's abnormal.

00:19:06.921 --> 00:19:08.521
I think you kind of find the

00:19:08.561 --> 00:19:10.323
bits of you that you've left behind,

00:19:10.363 --> 00:19:12.125
not left, but you didn't,

00:19:12.565 --> 00:19:13.586
couldn't do because you had

00:19:13.605 --> 00:19:15.586
to go into certain, you needed money,

00:19:15.727 --> 00:19:16.028
right?

00:19:17.028 --> 00:19:17.729
Because life.

00:19:18.769 --> 00:19:20.510
So I was quite lucky because

00:19:20.550 --> 00:19:21.432
the web happened.

00:19:21.571 --> 00:19:22.231
I could do that.

00:19:22.392 --> 00:19:22.511
And

00:19:23.742 --> 00:19:25.022
The thing initially with the

00:19:25.042 --> 00:19:27.624
web is I was always trying to find a way,

00:19:27.703 --> 00:19:30.105
so from flash to different things,

00:19:30.565 --> 00:19:32.846
because I understood the

00:19:32.885 --> 00:19:34.006
way things should form.

00:19:34.866 --> 00:19:35.467
And bear in mind,

00:19:35.487 --> 00:19:36.906
when I first started kind

00:19:36.926 --> 00:19:37.967
of making websites,

00:19:38.407 --> 00:19:40.248
user experience wasn't really known about,

00:19:40.748 --> 00:19:41.729
like put a button on it.

00:19:41.749 --> 00:19:41.848
Right.

00:19:45.371 --> 00:19:47.093
No one was talking about user journeys.

00:19:47.232 --> 00:19:49.535
No one was knowing about the

00:19:49.555 --> 00:19:51.676
benefits of AI sparkles or not.

00:19:51.977 --> 00:19:53.258
No one was talking about

00:19:53.818 --> 00:19:55.279
what was the correct flow

00:19:55.319 --> 00:19:56.821
or what was right or wrong

00:19:56.842 --> 00:19:57.782
about navigation.

00:19:58.103 --> 00:19:59.523
No one knew what was good or

00:19:59.544 --> 00:20:00.744
bad about accessibility or

00:20:00.785 --> 00:20:02.287
a tag or anything because

00:20:03.305 --> 00:20:04.404
Like they were just about

00:20:04.424 --> 00:20:05.385
doing a spinning globe.

00:20:07.606 --> 00:20:08.586
So I could do that.

00:20:08.686 --> 00:20:09.126
And in fact,

00:20:09.166 --> 00:20:10.326
a lot of what I was trying to

00:20:10.346 --> 00:20:11.347
do was not visual.

00:20:11.708 --> 00:20:12.788
A lot of it was content

00:20:12.827 --> 00:20:13.868
management and just trying

00:20:13.888 --> 00:20:14.909
to get navigation through,

00:20:14.929 --> 00:20:16.650
but I always could work

00:20:16.670 --> 00:20:17.769
those paths through and I

00:20:17.789 --> 00:20:19.330
could always like work out

00:20:19.371 --> 00:20:20.671
content because I had that

00:20:20.770 --> 00:20:22.912
understanding and because

00:20:22.951 --> 00:20:24.571
of my art kind of background.

00:20:24.633 --> 00:20:26.313
So it always stood me in

00:20:26.333 --> 00:20:27.413
good stead along with this

00:20:27.554 --> 00:20:28.794
kind of psychology background.

00:20:29.394 --> 00:20:31.035
And then over time,

00:20:31.875 --> 00:20:35.638
I've kind of rekindled that

00:20:35.838 --> 00:20:37.361
art through technology.

00:20:37.721 --> 00:20:38.602
I think that's the best way.

00:20:38.622 --> 00:20:39.843
Photography has always been a thing,

00:20:39.982 --> 00:20:40.983
although I resisted for a

00:20:41.064 --> 00:20:42.246
very long time getting into

00:20:42.286 --> 00:20:43.287
digital photography.

00:20:43.807 --> 00:20:44.347
I hated it.

00:20:44.367 --> 00:20:48.551
A lot of people are the same, I think.

00:20:49.232 --> 00:20:50.233
I used to think it was just

00:20:50.253 --> 00:20:51.194
me and I was weird.

00:20:51.595 --> 00:20:53.537
But in fact, no, it's not.

00:20:54.096 --> 00:20:56.018
Now I love it and I'm trying

00:20:56.038 --> 00:20:57.499
to get the smaller and smaller camera.

00:20:58.779 --> 00:21:01.561
But I think it's a real,

00:21:02.001 --> 00:21:02.902
it took me a long time to

00:21:02.922 --> 00:21:04.804
be okay about not hand processing.

00:21:05.223 --> 00:21:06.243
I'm okay now.

00:21:08.506 --> 00:21:09.046
Now though,

00:21:09.066 --> 00:21:10.666
what I really like doing and

00:21:10.707 --> 00:21:11.768
kind of skipping forward is

00:21:11.867 --> 00:21:13.769
I love taking a photograph,

00:21:14.009 --> 00:21:14.990
giving it to AI.

00:21:15.950 --> 00:21:17.631
letting AI do something with

00:21:17.651 --> 00:21:19.311
it and then me painting that.

00:21:19.332 --> 00:21:21.813
That's one of the things I really enjoy.

00:21:22.232 --> 00:21:25.134
I also love just doing like

00:21:25.173 --> 00:21:27.935
processing art and doing

00:21:27.996 --> 00:21:28.556
like that kind of

00:21:28.576 --> 00:21:29.757
generative art is one of

00:21:29.797 --> 00:21:31.817
the things that I don't get

00:21:31.857 --> 00:21:32.877
enough time to do that,

00:21:33.357 --> 00:21:34.239
but I really enjoy it.

00:21:34.838 --> 00:21:36.118
And kind of tangent to that,

00:21:36.299 --> 00:21:37.279
I even love doing things

00:21:37.319 --> 00:21:39.000
and I kind of still form it as art,

00:21:39.040 --> 00:21:39.840
like yarn.

00:21:40.280 --> 00:21:42.021
Like I love knitting and

00:21:42.382 --> 00:21:43.042
that's kind of like,

00:21:43.722 --> 00:21:45.782
physical art with maths

00:21:45.863 --> 00:21:48.183
right yeah I still things

00:21:48.203 --> 00:21:50.684
like that I still uh do I

00:21:50.724 --> 00:21:51.765
don't get enough time for a

00:21:51.785 --> 00:21:52.924
lot I'm trying as I kind of

00:21:52.944 --> 00:21:53.825
get older I try and make

00:21:53.884 --> 00:21:55.786
more time for those and I

00:21:55.846 --> 00:21:57.306
hope eventually I will get

00:21:57.605 --> 00:21:59.246
part-time for those but I

00:21:59.266 --> 00:22:00.467
think that's what we all do

00:22:00.686 --> 00:22:01.446
like as we kind of get

00:22:01.467 --> 00:22:02.767
older we get part-time to

00:22:02.826 --> 00:22:05.407
rediscover those things right yeah

00:22:06.407 --> 00:22:08.930
And you also spent a long

00:22:08.990 --> 00:22:10.751
time working on the very

00:22:10.892 --> 00:22:12.534
early version of the block

00:22:12.594 --> 00:22:13.694
editor in WordPress.

00:22:14.996 --> 00:22:17.198
Talk about that process.

00:22:17.577 --> 00:22:18.999
That was a period of time

00:22:19.038 --> 00:22:21.441
that was very... There's a

00:22:21.461 --> 00:22:22.801
lot of heated debate about

00:22:23.823 --> 00:22:25.064
the block editor.

00:22:25.644 --> 00:22:28.047
I remember myself feeling like,

00:22:28.106 --> 00:22:30.209
is this a thing that we really need?

00:22:31.229 --> 00:22:32.789
and it doesn't matter if we

00:22:32.809 --> 00:22:35.971
need it or not because we're getting it.

00:22:36.333 --> 00:22:37.814
I feel like at least for

00:22:38.054 --> 00:22:40.934
some curmudgeonly old

00:22:40.974 --> 00:22:42.496
WordPressers like me,

00:22:42.556 --> 00:22:43.876
it was like there's a

00:22:43.916 --> 00:22:44.978
little bit of a resentment

00:22:45.178 --> 00:22:46.638
towards this new thing just

00:22:46.679 --> 00:22:48.000
because it was a thing that

00:22:48.039 --> 00:22:48.660
we didn't know,

00:22:48.740 --> 00:22:49.441
and now we have to learn

00:22:49.480 --> 00:22:50.621
JavaScript and React,

00:22:51.221 --> 00:22:52.342
and I'm a PHP developer,

00:22:52.383 --> 00:22:53.843
and I can't possibly learn new things.

00:22:55.523 --> 00:22:56.884
Talk about what your

00:22:56.944 --> 00:22:58.145
experience of being

00:22:58.165 --> 00:22:59.507
involved in that project was like.

00:23:00.405 --> 00:23:01.586
So I think the interesting

00:23:01.606 --> 00:23:05.031
thing was that at one point,

00:23:05.632 --> 00:23:07.074
the people who were,

00:23:07.595 --> 00:23:08.736
like me and some other people,

00:23:08.776 --> 00:23:11.338
it's like you couldn't see our faces.

00:23:11.419 --> 00:23:12.961
I think that's the best way

00:23:12.980 --> 00:23:14.182
to describe it because...

00:23:15.057 --> 00:23:15.698
I'd been in the project.

00:23:15.718 --> 00:23:17.117
It was just this thing that was happening.

00:23:17.318 --> 00:23:17.919
Yeah.

00:23:18.038 --> 00:23:19.299
Like we, I'd been in the project.

00:23:19.359 --> 00:23:20.601
I was PHP.

00:23:20.721 --> 00:23:21.260
Like that was,

00:23:21.381 --> 00:23:22.842
I already shared like the new language.

00:23:22.862 --> 00:23:23.742
I was like one of the first

00:23:23.803 --> 00:23:24.983
languages I really kind of,

00:23:25.523 --> 00:23:26.884
the web that I dove into.

00:23:26.924 --> 00:23:27.424
In fact,

00:23:27.525 --> 00:23:29.406
I remember writing an essay on

00:23:29.426 --> 00:23:30.106
this new language called

00:23:30.126 --> 00:23:31.347
PHP and why it was going to

00:23:31.367 --> 00:23:33.128
change the web.

00:23:33.449 --> 00:23:37.852
Like I learned JavaScript as part,

00:23:38.252 --> 00:23:41.654
very roughly, as part of the editor.

00:23:41.795 --> 00:23:44.277
So I was on that journey myself as well.

00:23:45.676 --> 00:23:47.298
And I think a lot of people

00:23:47.317 --> 00:23:49.380
kind of forgot that we were themers.

00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:51.240
We were people who had the

00:23:51.441 --> 00:23:52.981
best intent of WordPress.

00:23:53.041 --> 00:23:54.982
I didn't wake up one morning,

00:23:55.262 --> 00:23:56.544
disconnect myself,

00:23:56.923 --> 00:23:58.184
get a bonk on my head and

00:23:58.224 --> 00:24:00.605
decided I wanted the worst for WordPress,

00:24:00.685 --> 00:24:00.965
right?

00:24:01.026 --> 00:24:02.626
Like that's been very

00:24:02.666 --> 00:24:04.028
flippant in English about it,

00:24:04.048 --> 00:24:05.648
but that's not what happened to me,

00:24:05.709 --> 00:24:06.009
right?

00:24:06.369 --> 00:24:06.910
Yeah.

00:24:08.542 --> 00:24:10.564
And I think it's very easy

00:24:10.624 --> 00:24:12.365
to not see the humans,

00:24:12.585 --> 00:24:14.386
not see the people and not

00:24:14.487 --> 00:24:16.067
see what they're trying to

00:24:16.107 --> 00:24:17.167
do on both sides.

00:24:19.730 --> 00:24:21.411
And I think when you're making something,

00:24:22.391 --> 00:24:23.872
it's very easy to not see...

00:24:26.211 --> 00:24:27.191
anyone else because it's

00:24:27.211 --> 00:24:28.711
super exciting like when

00:24:28.731 --> 00:24:29.673
you're making something and

00:24:29.692 --> 00:24:30.893
you're making something new

00:24:31.492 --> 00:24:33.574
um I'm a maker and I love

00:24:33.594 --> 00:24:34.414
making when I'm talking

00:24:34.434 --> 00:24:35.315
about making me I like

00:24:35.615 --> 00:24:37.135
super excited right like I

00:24:37.215 --> 00:24:39.017
am like ah this is cold

00:24:39.037 --> 00:24:39.576
like we've had

00:24:39.616 --> 00:24:40.616
conversations about like

00:24:40.997 --> 00:24:42.397
you can just nerd out and

00:24:42.458 --> 00:24:44.759
I'm like ah this is amazing

00:24:45.219 --> 00:24:45.979
and you do that and when

00:24:45.999 --> 00:24:47.319
you're on a project and you

00:24:47.359 --> 00:24:48.319
can nerd out with people

00:24:48.381 --> 00:24:49.221
and you're really focusing

00:24:49.240 --> 00:24:50.721
on something it's great you

00:24:50.902 --> 00:24:52.221
are completely like

00:24:52.321 --> 00:24:53.682
obsessed in that and it's

00:24:54.323 --> 00:24:55.683
If someone is shouting at you,

00:24:56.203 --> 00:24:57.164
I like most people.

00:24:57.224 --> 00:24:58.085
If someone shouts at me,

00:24:58.164 --> 00:24:59.085
I don't want to listen too

00:24:59.145 --> 00:25:01.586
much because it turns out

00:25:01.626 --> 00:25:03.307
that we don't like people shouting at us.

00:25:03.607 --> 00:25:04.607
So it's quite hard.

00:25:05.068 --> 00:25:06.449
What I found I consciously

00:25:06.489 --> 00:25:08.809
had to do was bring in that

00:25:08.990 --> 00:25:11.092
kind of usability and that

00:25:11.451 --> 00:25:12.771
like psychology training of

00:25:12.811 --> 00:25:13.633
myself to listen.

00:25:14.073 --> 00:25:15.233
So the one-star reviews was

00:25:15.253 --> 00:25:16.634
something I did a lot of

00:25:17.015 --> 00:25:18.655
responding to and a lot of listening,

00:25:18.736 --> 00:25:20.057
a lot of usability testing.

00:25:20.436 --> 00:25:21.557
I like to call it usability,

00:25:21.597 --> 00:25:22.278
not user testing,

00:25:22.298 --> 00:25:23.459
because I'm not testing on

00:25:23.479 --> 00:25:24.239
humans or animals.

00:25:26.359 --> 00:25:28.961
That's my thing.

00:25:28.981 --> 00:25:29.863
A little bit.

00:25:29.942 --> 00:25:31.063
I just find it weird to say

00:25:31.103 --> 00:25:32.124
that you can use the testing.

00:25:32.183 --> 00:25:32.364
Yeah.

00:25:35.046 --> 00:25:36.307
Although curious.

00:25:38.048 --> 00:25:41.971
And just kind of going and watching.

00:25:42.373 --> 00:25:44.013
And every time I did that, it helped me.

00:25:44.074 --> 00:25:45.055
Every time that I talked to someone,

00:25:45.134 --> 00:25:45.816
it helped me.

00:25:46.536 --> 00:25:47.477
But yeah, it's not,

00:25:47.836 --> 00:25:49.479
it's hard because you're being,

00:25:50.960 --> 00:25:51.760
your history,

00:25:53.382 --> 00:25:55.683
what you want is being removed.

00:25:55.743 --> 00:25:56.984
You can't argue with someone

00:25:57.005 --> 00:25:59.788
who's done that or you

00:25:59.807 --> 00:26:01.009
can't discuss that.

00:26:01.509 --> 00:26:02.650
I'm not going to argue.

00:26:02.849 --> 00:26:03.530
I don't argue.

00:26:04.310 --> 00:26:05.211
I will probably just walk

00:26:05.291 --> 00:26:06.833
off and go and play with a puppy.

00:26:08.433 --> 00:26:09.595
I don't do well in arguments.

00:26:09.654 --> 00:26:10.455
I can't argue.

00:26:10.675 --> 00:26:12.916
That's fine.

00:26:12.936 --> 00:26:13.718
A long time ago,

00:26:13.758 --> 00:26:15.019
I'm not that type of person.

00:26:15.919 --> 00:26:18.461
But some people really, really can.

00:26:19.261 --> 00:26:20.122
And that's okay.

00:26:20.762 --> 00:26:22.304
But not over here.

00:26:22.463 --> 00:26:24.605
So I think that that's the thing.

00:26:25.526 --> 00:26:27.586
a lot of people still feel

00:26:27.606 --> 00:26:29.188
that their their things

00:26:29.208 --> 00:26:30.689
were changed their

00:26:30.769 --> 00:26:33.131
difference but generally

00:26:33.171 --> 00:26:34.652
what it was was how can I

00:26:34.731 --> 00:26:36.252
use this thing this thing's

00:26:36.292 --> 00:26:37.432
stopping me do something

00:26:37.453 --> 00:26:38.933
that I want to do and when

00:26:39.013 --> 00:26:40.575
you listen to that you

00:26:40.595 --> 00:26:41.695
could even have a

00:26:41.736 --> 00:26:44.038
discussion about okay but

00:26:44.617 --> 00:26:46.078
what do you need to do and

00:26:46.118 --> 00:26:47.299
how do we get you to do that

00:26:48.292 --> 00:26:49.253
That was super helpful.

00:26:49.834 --> 00:26:51.214
Or we could have a, okay,

00:26:51.275 --> 00:26:52.895
we hadn't thought of that situation.

00:26:53.375 --> 00:26:54.376
Let's now change this

00:26:54.457 --> 00:26:55.656
because now you've given us

00:26:55.676 --> 00:26:56.417
that information.

00:26:56.817 --> 00:26:57.699
And that was one of the big

00:26:57.739 --> 00:26:59.740
things was trying to get that input.

00:27:00.099 --> 00:27:00.980
There was a time,

00:27:01.480 --> 00:27:02.621
and I remember distinctly of like,

00:27:02.641 --> 00:27:04.923
we just need input, not shouting, right?

00:27:05.682 --> 00:27:06.523
Like in a good way.

00:27:06.544 --> 00:27:08.625
Like it's great we're having

00:27:08.664 --> 00:27:10.385
like some input,

00:27:10.705 --> 00:27:12.606
but what we need is input

00:27:12.646 --> 00:27:13.327
where you can then,

00:27:14.826 --> 00:27:17.307
take action in some direction about.

00:27:17.468 --> 00:27:19.469
And I think that that's kind of the thing.

00:27:20.109 --> 00:27:21.150
And it wasn't all negative.

00:27:21.210 --> 00:27:22.050
And I think that's the thing.

00:27:22.090 --> 00:27:23.872
Like whenever something comes out,

00:27:23.951 --> 00:27:24.952
these big projects,

00:27:25.752 --> 00:27:26.574
it's one of those ones

00:27:26.614 --> 00:27:28.275
where if you look back,

00:27:29.736 --> 00:27:32.238
it would be really unjust

00:27:32.377 --> 00:27:33.979
on the project to say like, ah,

00:27:33.999 --> 00:27:35.079
it was all bad or it all

00:27:35.119 --> 00:27:36.780
felt all bad because it really didn't.

00:27:36.800 --> 00:27:38.422
There were some beautiful moments.

00:27:38.442 --> 00:27:39.982
There were some beautiful spots.

00:27:40.742 --> 00:27:43.605
But it does take its toll on

00:27:43.625 --> 00:27:44.645
the people that were involved.

00:27:45.546 --> 00:27:47.487
And I think in hindsight,

00:27:47.787 --> 00:27:49.248
there are better ways to do it.

00:27:50.228 --> 00:27:52.509
It certainly taught me how I

00:27:52.588 --> 00:27:55.411
will want to approach projects,

00:27:55.471 --> 00:27:57.352
how I want to approach releasing things,

00:27:57.432 --> 00:27:59.412
how I want to approach communities,

00:27:59.491 --> 00:28:00.393
how I want to approach the

00:28:00.413 --> 00:28:01.113
work that I do.

00:28:01.792 --> 00:28:04.674
And I think in general...

00:28:05.714 --> 00:28:06.535
like product work,

00:28:06.714 --> 00:28:07.695
how I want to approach it.

00:28:09.516 --> 00:28:11.195
There's a point where you listen,

00:28:11.215 --> 00:28:12.376
but you still have to take action.

00:28:13.156 --> 00:28:14.416
And I think a lot of that time,

00:28:14.797 --> 00:28:16.797
even in WordPress, we often say like,

00:28:17.317 --> 00:28:18.218
give us feedback where we

00:28:18.238 --> 00:28:19.698
don't say when that feedback,

00:28:20.157 --> 00:28:21.097
we want you to stop with

00:28:21.117 --> 00:28:22.138
the feedback and then we

00:28:22.159 --> 00:28:23.398
summarize it and give action.

00:28:23.459 --> 00:28:24.959
And we actually changed that.

00:28:24.999 --> 00:28:26.098
There was a point in the

00:28:26.118 --> 00:28:27.140
project where we changed to

00:28:27.180 --> 00:28:27.940
start doing that.

00:28:28.680 --> 00:28:29.780
And it started to be more

00:28:29.820 --> 00:28:32.082
positive because we started to do that.

00:28:32.102 --> 00:28:33.521
And we were just like, okay,

00:28:33.582 --> 00:28:35.583
now we're actually giving you that.

00:28:36.042 --> 00:28:37.023
And that's the thing,

00:28:37.064 --> 00:28:39.625
like we're setting like that tone.

00:28:40.125 --> 00:28:41.786
And I think it's a good way.

00:28:41.826 --> 00:28:42.685
So yeah,

00:28:43.246 --> 00:28:45.146
there's no good answers on things

00:28:45.186 --> 00:28:45.547
like that.

00:28:45.586 --> 00:28:46.968
And I think everybody has to,

00:28:48.931 --> 00:28:52.112
look back and take a lot of

00:28:52.172 --> 00:28:54.133
lessons from those, those projects.

00:28:54.192 --> 00:28:55.354
I think WordPress is full of

00:28:55.394 --> 00:28:56.253
these lessons.

00:28:56.413 --> 00:28:58.934
If we take time to learn them,

00:28:59.055 --> 00:29:00.736
any open source project is full of that,

00:29:01.076 --> 00:29:02.455
but we sometimes move so fast.

00:29:02.496 --> 00:29:03.817
We don't take those lessons.

00:29:04.836 --> 00:29:05.317
I was lucky.

00:29:05.376 --> 00:29:06.518
I had a sabbatical so I

00:29:06.538 --> 00:29:07.258
could take some of those

00:29:07.298 --> 00:29:11.859
lessons afterwards and go, okay,

00:29:11.920 --> 00:29:12.680
here's those lessons I'm

00:29:12.720 --> 00:29:14.101
going to take into my next bit of work.

00:29:15.480 --> 00:29:16.182
And I have,

00:29:17.402 --> 00:29:18.942
but I would encourage anyone to

00:29:19.423 --> 00:29:21.463
take a couple of weekends

00:29:21.545 --> 00:29:23.444
and if they do any open source work,

00:29:23.484 --> 00:29:25.086
try and journal about what

00:29:25.125 --> 00:29:25.727
have they learned.

00:29:26.307 --> 00:29:27.047
Do an end of year.

00:29:27.067 --> 00:29:28.208
What did you learn this year

00:29:28.268 --> 00:29:29.509
in your open source work?

00:29:30.941 --> 00:29:31.201
Yeah,

00:29:31.221 --> 00:29:32.682
I want to come back to that because I

00:29:32.701 --> 00:29:33.221
want to talk about

00:29:33.241 --> 00:29:34.041
sabbaticals because I've

00:29:34.082 --> 00:29:35.102
never had a sabbatical.

00:29:36.323 --> 00:29:39.084
But you mentioned sort of

00:29:39.163 --> 00:29:41.324
like this idea of it's

00:29:41.384 --> 00:29:42.585
really easy to sort of

00:29:43.484 --> 00:29:44.424
surround yourself in a

00:29:44.525 --> 00:29:51.007
bubble and be like –

00:29:47.113 --> 00:29:48.574
like not even see the

00:29:48.673 --> 00:29:51.576
outside uh for a while and

00:29:51.676 --> 00:29:52.718
I remember you know when I

00:29:52.738 --> 00:29:53.679
was working at human made

00:29:54.138 --> 00:29:55.339
um and we were doing a lot

00:29:55.380 --> 00:29:56.560
of gutenberg stuff and I

00:29:56.601 --> 00:29:57.240
had been doing a lot of

00:29:57.281 --> 00:29:58.402
gutenberg stuff and I went

00:29:58.462 --> 00:30:00.763
to word camp long beach uh

00:30:00.784 --> 00:30:02.066
to give a presentation on

00:30:02.165 --> 00:30:03.826
gutenberg um and it was a

00:30:03.967 --> 00:30:05.508
really like introduction

00:30:05.627 --> 00:30:06.970
like this is why you should

00:30:07.009 --> 00:30:08.510
care about gutenberg and I

00:30:08.730 --> 00:30:09.652
I knew that there was a lot

00:30:09.692 --> 00:30:10.712
of like negative feeling

00:30:10.752 --> 00:30:11.653
about it and I was like at

00:30:11.693 --> 00:30:13.394
this point I was like gung-ho like

00:30:13.775 --> 00:30:14.835
Gutenberg is the thing.

00:30:15.955 --> 00:30:18.596
And it was really interesting because,

00:30:18.737 --> 00:30:19.376
first of all,

00:30:19.896 --> 00:30:21.477
the majority of my talk was

00:30:21.636 --> 00:30:23.258
over the audience's head

00:30:23.357 --> 00:30:25.679
because they didn't care

00:30:25.699 --> 00:30:27.939
about or want to care about

00:30:28.460 --> 00:30:29.759
Gutenberg at that time.

00:30:30.520 --> 00:30:32.061
It was it was twenty nineteen,

00:30:32.803 --> 00:30:35.105
which is still, you know, well after,

00:30:35.246 --> 00:30:37.728
you know, it had been around for a while.

00:30:38.489 --> 00:30:39.690
But people were very at

00:30:39.710 --> 00:30:40.671
least the people who had

00:30:40.691 --> 00:30:41.632
been using WordPress and a

00:30:41.652 --> 00:30:42.894
lot of these are like business owners,

00:30:42.933 --> 00:30:45.375
small business owners and like, you know,

00:30:45.415 --> 00:30:46.017
users is like,

00:30:46.477 --> 00:30:47.499
I don't want to learn a new thing.

00:30:48.098 --> 00:30:49.299
Why do I need to learn a new thing?

00:30:49.961 --> 00:30:51.001
They haven't got time to

00:30:51.021 --> 00:30:51.762
learn a new thing.

00:30:51.863 --> 00:30:52.344
Exactly.

00:30:53.163 --> 00:30:54.365
And it was it was a little

00:30:54.384 --> 00:30:56.866
bit sort of eye opening to

00:30:57.007 --> 00:30:59.848
to come to the realization,

00:30:59.949 --> 00:31:03.550
like kind of in front of an audience that,

00:31:03.891 --> 00:31:04.111
oh,

00:31:04.692 --> 00:31:07.394
I'm actually super privileged because

00:31:07.693 --> 00:31:09.714
I work at an agency that is

00:31:09.855 --> 00:31:12.477
able to create these bespoke things.

00:31:12.656 --> 00:31:15.157
like curated experiences for

00:31:15.298 --> 00:31:16.659
our clients and build these

00:31:16.699 --> 00:31:17.619
really cool things.

00:31:18.079 --> 00:31:19.421
But the majority of people

00:31:19.621 --> 00:31:21.182
aren't in that situation

00:31:21.741 --> 00:31:23.242
and they're using what they

00:31:23.282 --> 00:31:24.564
can find either that's

00:31:24.604 --> 00:31:26.064
built into core or through

00:31:26.084 --> 00:31:27.224
a plugin or whatever.

00:31:27.345 --> 00:31:28.445
And that might match the

00:31:28.465 --> 00:31:29.506
thing that they want or it

00:31:29.586 --> 00:31:30.946
might kind of come close

00:31:30.967 --> 00:31:32.067
and they can kind of make it work.

00:31:32.887 --> 00:31:34.148
but they're not getting the

00:31:34.209 --> 00:31:36.371
thing that I am excited about building.

00:31:36.990 --> 00:31:38.311
And they're not capable of

00:31:38.432 --> 00:31:40.334
building the thing that my,

00:31:40.453 --> 00:31:41.755
me and my team are building.

00:31:42.375 --> 00:31:43.115
And that was a really

00:31:43.175 --> 00:31:45.317
interesting sort of like

00:31:45.416 --> 00:31:47.598
revelation that like,

00:31:47.939 --> 00:31:49.039
it made me realize how much

00:31:49.079 --> 00:31:50.000
of a bubble I was in.

00:31:50.941 --> 00:31:51.040
Yeah.

00:31:51.060 --> 00:31:52.241
So the, the bit that you say,

00:31:52.261 --> 00:31:52.903
the privilege,

00:31:53.063 --> 00:31:54.784
I've tried to remember that

00:31:54.943 --> 00:31:57.046
and remember that feeling now I'm,

00:31:58.685 --> 00:31:59.747
Like now I'm in a different

00:31:59.767 --> 00:32:00.988
situation because now I'm

00:32:01.028 --> 00:32:02.690
not a full-time contributor.

00:32:02.809 --> 00:32:04.431
Now I kind of do what I do,

00:32:04.471 --> 00:32:05.791
but I still contribute, right?

00:32:05.971 --> 00:32:08.233
And so I try and both

00:32:08.315 --> 00:32:09.836
remember what it's like for

00:32:09.855 --> 00:32:11.017
the full-time contributors

00:32:11.156 --> 00:32:12.238
and I also try and remember

00:32:12.258 --> 00:32:12.877
what it's like for the

00:32:12.898 --> 00:32:13.659
product makers because I

00:32:13.679 --> 00:32:15.140
definitely sit between two now.

00:32:16.181 --> 00:32:17.402
I try and remember that when

00:32:17.442 --> 00:32:18.363
I'm doing AI work.

00:32:18.502 --> 00:32:20.025
I try and remember that when

00:32:20.265 --> 00:32:21.306
I don't have enough time to

00:32:21.346 --> 00:32:22.426
learn and I get frustrated

00:32:22.467 --> 00:32:23.688
because part of me does now.

00:32:23.748 --> 00:32:24.628
I'm like...

00:32:25.128 --> 00:32:28.430
I want to knit this weekend to do AI.

00:32:28.470 --> 00:32:29.891
But actually, I generally want to do AI,

00:32:29.931 --> 00:32:30.270
not knit.

00:32:30.310 --> 00:32:32.432
But yeah, OK.

00:32:32.451 --> 00:32:33.412
And I have these arguments

00:32:33.432 --> 00:32:35.192
between myself about time.

00:32:35.732 --> 00:32:36.792
And I try and tell myself

00:32:36.813 --> 00:32:39.394
that I need to rest and all

00:32:39.413 --> 00:32:40.055
these kind of things.

00:32:40.154 --> 00:32:42.694
Or when I get caught up with

00:32:42.734 --> 00:32:44.175
someone who's a full-time contributor,

00:32:44.215 --> 00:32:45.836
I'm like, hang on, no.

00:32:46.596 --> 00:32:48.057
We need to take this outside, right?

00:32:50.751 --> 00:32:52.954
it is really difficult to

00:32:52.974 --> 00:32:55.458
kind of remember and put yourself.

00:32:56.499 --> 00:32:58.561
I feel quite privileged to

00:32:58.781 --> 00:32:59.803
be able to kind of have

00:32:59.843 --> 00:33:01.746
that and then still be in a space.

00:33:03.047 --> 00:33:04.189
Quite a lot of people maybe

00:33:04.229 --> 00:33:06.151
leave the spaces, don't kind of do it.

00:33:06.191 --> 00:33:07.492
So it's something that I'm,

00:33:08.032 --> 00:33:09.134
I feel lucky to kind of

00:33:09.173 --> 00:33:10.214
still be building in this

00:33:10.275 --> 00:33:11.436
space and making in this space.

00:33:11.457 --> 00:33:12.837
I hope to continue for a

00:33:12.857 --> 00:33:13.979
while to make in this space.

00:33:14.440 --> 00:33:16.221
Um, not done yet.

00:33:17.442 --> 00:33:20.025
Um, uh, but it, it's, well, it,

00:33:20.125 --> 00:33:20.965
it's an interesting, you,

00:33:21.365 --> 00:33:23.107
you have to recognize that,

00:33:23.347 --> 00:33:24.608
the privilege of making that

00:33:24.648 --> 00:33:26.528
you have and where you are

00:33:26.568 --> 00:33:27.410
on that scale and that's

00:33:27.430 --> 00:33:28.670
something I definitely had

00:33:28.690 --> 00:33:29.451
a number of times because

00:33:29.471 --> 00:33:30.250
we kind of were going

00:33:30.270 --> 00:33:31.291
around giving talks about

00:33:31.352 --> 00:33:32.852
Gutenberg and there were so

00:33:32.872 --> 00:33:35.313
many times when I had this

00:33:36.134 --> 00:33:38.335
and good and bad body

00:33:38.355 --> 00:33:40.035
language right of people

00:33:40.234 --> 00:33:41.556
and you have a like when

00:33:41.576 --> 00:33:42.895
you're speaking you will

00:33:42.936 --> 00:33:43.777
notice someone's body

00:33:43.817 --> 00:33:47.898
language and you'll be like oh the um

00:33:49.078 --> 00:33:51.321
Or the one-on-ones were also for me.

00:33:51.561 --> 00:33:53.163
When someone just asks you a question,

00:33:53.263 --> 00:33:54.525
you're like,

00:33:54.546 --> 00:33:55.987
why is that not documentation?

00:33:56.488 --> 00:33:58.170
Why could you not find that for yourself?

00:33:59.671 --> 00:33:59.830
And

00:34:01.497 --> 00:34:03.798
why like why is everybody

00:34:03.919 --> 00:34:04.798
else that I'm talking about

00:34:04.878 --> 00:34:06.319
excited about that and

00:34:06.359 --> 00:34:08.621
you're so scared and you

00:34:08.661 --> 00:34:09.682
look at them and they have

00:34:09.882 --> 00:34:11.923
fear about that thing and

00:34:12.022 --> 00:34:13.003
and there was real fear

00:34:13.023 --> 00:34:14.525
from people and that that

00:34:14.545 --> 00:34:15.644
was something to be like

00:34:15.704 --> 00:34:17.326
okay I'm gonna like listen

00:34:17.346 --> 00:34:18.267
to the fear generally when

00:34:18.307 --> 00:34:19.807
it's in an extreme emotion

00:34:20.147 --> 00:34:21.028
you can talk through the

00:34:21.048 --> 00:34:23.670
extreme emotions um and and

00:34:23.730 --> 00:34:25.171
really like kind of get to

00:34:25.191 --> 00:34:26.472
the root of those ones

00:34:26.512 --> 00:34:27.251
because it's generally like

00:34:27.271 --> 00:34:28.512
a bit of information they needed

00:34:29.134 --> 00:34:29.534
Um,

00:34:29.554 --> 00:34:30.556
like fear comes from lack of

00:34:30.597 --> 00:34:31.599
information generally.

00:34:34.485 --> 00:34:34.684
Yeah,

00:34:34.724 --> 00:34:36.487
talk about... So let's go back to the

00:34:36.507 --> 00:34:36.947
sabbatical.

00:34:38.768 --> 00:34:39.829
I want to hear about it.

00:34:39.889 --> 00:34:41.289
I want to hear... I think at

00:34:41.329 --> 00:34:42.271
the time you were probably

00:34:42.291 --> 00:34:43.052
working at Automatic.

00:34:43.112 --> 00:34:45.313
Automatic makes it very well

00:34:45.373 --> 00:34:47.155
known that after you have a

00:34:47.215 --> 00:34:48.135
certain amount of tenure,

00:34:49.135 --> 00:34:51.257
then you are welcome to

00:34:51.297 --> 00:34:52.259
take a sabbatical.

00:34:53.639 --> 00:34:55.760
What is a... How long...

00:34:56.061 --> 00:34:56.782
What does that mean?

00:34:56.822 --> 00:34:57.802
What does that look like?

00:34:58.923 --> 00:35:00.324
I've also observed and...

00:35:00.925 --> 00:35:02.266
since I've watched the

00:35:02.306 --> 00:35:05.090
company from the sidelines for many years,

00:35:05.849 --> 00:35:07.492
that it's not super

00:35:07.592 --> 00:35:09.213
uncommon for someone to go

00:35:09.253 --> 00:35:10.815
away on a sabbatical and

00:35:10.835 --> 00:35:12.297
then come back and then

00:35:12.376 --> 00:35:13.978
realize that they're in a

00:35:14.018 --> 00:35:15.480
different place than they

00:35:15.539 --> 00:35:18.043
were when they left and then maybe

00:35:19.184 --> 00:35:20.664
a few months later or a year

00:35:20.704 --> 00:35:21.724
later they're like yep you

00:35:21.744 --> 00:35:22.864
know what I'm done here I'm

00:35:22.905 --> 00:35:23.766
gonna go off and do this

00:35:23.806 --> 00:35:24.706
other thing that I kind of

00:35:24.766 --> 00:35:25.646
explored a little bit in my

00:35:25.686 --> 00:35:28.748
sabbatical um so yeah talk

00:35:28.768 --> 00:35:30.708
about what that's like and

00:35:31.088 --> 00:35:32.088
just having the opportunity

00:35:32.168 --> 00:35:34.170
what you did and and yeah

00:35:34.349 --> 00:35:35.030
how does that work

00:35:35.614 --> 00:35:36.954
Yeah, so my sabbatical,

00:35:37.114 --> 00:35:39.074
so nobody wanted Gutenberg

00:35:39.094 --> 00:35:39.974
to be released as much as

00:35:40.034 --> 00:35:43.115
me because my sabbatical was to end.

00:35:43.556 --> 00:35:44.217
And it was a little bit

00:35:44.257 --> 00:35:45.757
delayed because there were a few of us.

00:35:46.356 --> 00:35:47.958
So there wasn't, you know,

00:35:48.018 --> 00:35:49.697
people really wanted it to be released.

00:35:50.398 --> 00:35:51.199
That's a half joke.

00:35:51.838 --> 00:35:54.480
um but for me and in fact

00:35:54.500 --> 00:35:56.061
it's encouraged uh

00:35:56.081 --> 00:35:56.880
different companies have

00:35:56.900 --> 00:35:57.760
sabbaticals in different

00:35:57.800 --> 00:36:00.121
ways uh so I think uh I can

00:36:00.181 --> 00:36:01.643
only give I've only had one

00:36:01.682 --> 00:36:02.882
sabbatical one company so

00:36:02.902 --> 00:36:04.264
that that is all my

00:36:04.304 --> 00:36:07.664
experience I I hope that if

00:36:07.704 --> 00:36:09.246
my own company grows I will

00:36:09.365 --> 00:36:10.306
install this practice and I

00:36:10.326 --> 00:36:11.226
guess that there's

00:36:11.246 --> 00:36:12.126
something telling in that

00:36:12.186 --> 00:36:14.527
and the reason why I think it is

00:36:16.148 --> 00:36:17.608
It is an honor to be able to

00:36:17.628 --> 00:36:19.168
say to someone for a month

00:36:19.289 --> 00:36:21.409
or three months or whatever

00:36:21.469 --> 00:36:23.610
set time to say, I trust you enough.

00:36:23.990 --> 00:36:25.090
I'm going to give you some time.

00:36:25.331 --> 00:36:26.630
You've done really awesome

00:36:26.670 --> 00:36:27.731
in the work you're going to do.

00:36:28.032 --> 00:36:28.891
And you don't have to think

00:36:28.911 --> 00:36:31.032
about work for this set amount of time.

00:36:32.132 --> 00:36:32.672
For me,

00:36:32.733 --> 00:36:34.074
what it allowed me to do was

00:36:34.134 --> 00:36:37.074
recharge and detox.

00:36:37.215 --> 00:36:38.094
And that's what I did.

00:36:38.275 --> 00:36:39.414
And the way that I did it

00:36:39.454 --> 00:36:41.376
was by rediscovering painting.

00:36:42.376 --> 00:36:43.396
Um, uh,

00:36:43.416 --> 00:36:46.119
hit in like a time where we weren't

00:36:46.159 --> 00:36:47.601
traveling, we weren't going around,

00:36:47.681 --> 00:36:48.181
we were, you know,

00:36:49.423 --> 00:36:50.605
small things of the pandemic.

00:36:51.565 --> 00:36:52.806
Um, uh,

00:36:52.867 --> 00:36:55.289
but it actually was pretty perfect

00:36:55.309 --> 00:36:56.351
for me because of that.

00:36:56.471 --> 00:36:59.414
I got to kind of recharge, uh,

00:36:59.474 --> 00:37:00.715
really rediscover,

00:37:01.076 --> 00:37:03.318
like sort out a lot of like

00:37:04.128 --> 00:37:05.429
get really back down to

00:37:05.469 --> 00:37:06.630
practice of getting up in the morning,

00:37:06.690 --> 00:37:09.311
painting, going to bed, finishing,

00:37:09.371 --> 00:37:10.951
and I got to finish some

00:37:11.431 --> 00:37:13.211
pieces and that type of thing.

00:37:14.052 --> 00:37:15.393
Do what I maybe would have

00:37:15.432 --> 00:37:16.492
done in another life,

00:37:17.333 --> 00:37:18.414
which I think is like one

00:37:18.454 --> 00:37:19.875
of the things that people find.

00:37:19.914 --> 00:37:21.454
They try on what they could

00:37:21.474 --> 00:37:22.456
have done in another life.

00:37:22.496 --> 00:37:23.675
That's kind of like going

00:37:23.695 --> 00:37:25.476
back to that thing of like being able to,

00:37:25.956 --> 00:37:26.876
what would you have done in

00:37:26.916 --> 00:37:28.137
your other lives that you

00:37:28.157 --> 00:37:28.838
could have lived?

00:37:30.184 --> 00:37:32.025
um which I I guess is very

00:37:32.065 --> 00:37:33.206
much a reflection you have

00:37:33.246 --> 00:37:34.487
as you kind of get older as

00:37:34.547 --> 00:37:35.588
well like that that

00:37:35.628 --> 00:37:37.650
reflection and um but with

00:37:37.690 --> 00:37:38.570
sabbaticals give you that

00:37:38.590 --> 00:37:39.951
reflection at any age to be

00:37:39.990 --> 00:37:41.291
able to check that out um

00:37:41.371 --> 00:37:42.452
I've seen other people do

00:37:42.932 --> 00:37:44.014
uh go and do massive

00:37:44.054 --> 00:37:45.534
travels and stuff um I was

00:37:45.554 --> 00:37:46.335
quite lucky I did quite a

00:37:46.355 --> 00:37:47.695
lot of travel with work so

00:37:47.735 --> 00:37:48.817
for me actually not

00:37:48.856 --> 00:37:51.438
traveling was a real nice thing

00:37:52.278 --> 00:37:53.420
Not having to get on any

00:37:53.460 --> 00:37:54.860
planes was also really good.

00:37:57.101 --> 00:37:59.844
Yeah, so that was it.

00:37:59.884 --> 00:38:01.204
A really small life was

00:38:01.264 --> 00:38:02.905
actually what I did with my sabbatical.

00:38:03.786 --> 00:38:04.907
I had no, like,

00:38:05.567 --> 00:38:07.289
often people have major plans.

00:38:07.489 --> 00:38:09.389
I did a lot of really small things.

00:38:10.309 --> 00:38:12.371
And it was really important.

00:38:13.503 --> 00:38:15.224
to me to do really small things.

00:38:15.244 --> 00:38:15.304
Uh,

00:38:15.945 --> 00:38:17.865
and the small things kind of managed to

00:38:17.905 --> 00:38:18.146
me,

00:38:18.226 --> 00:38:20.347
cleaned my brain and sorted that out a

00:38:20.407 --> 00:38:21.128
lot.

00:38:21.188 --> 00:38:22.188
Yeah.

00:38:22.289 --> 00:38:22.528
Yeah.

00:38:22.628 --> 00:38:24.489
I say that I, I, uh,

00:38:24.550 --> 00:38:25.510
I didn't go on sabbatical,

00:38:25.530 --> 00:38:26.771
but I actually went on a

00:38:26.811 --> 00:38:27.632
compassionate leave,

00:38:27.672 --> 00:38:28.853
which kind of served the

00:38:28.873 --> 00:38:30.092
same purpose at the time.

00:38:30.733 --> 00:38:33.155
Um, that was, it was during pandemic.

00:38:33.416 --> 00:38:35.396
Um, and, um,

00:38:35.436 --> 00:38:38.739
my partner had shattered her knee, um,

00:38:39.697 --> 00:38:40.378
Uh, right.

00:38:40.518 --> 00:38:42.139
We were riding bikes with the kids.

00:38:42.159 --> 00:38:42.820
Uh,

00:38:42.900 --> 00:38:44.340
and I think there's like one of the

00:38:44.360 --> 00:38:45.201
kids swerved in front of

00:38:45.221 --> 00:38:47.061
her and she moved to not crash into the,

00:38:47.182 --> 00:38:49.844
and like landed square on her knee, uh,

00:38:49.864 --> 00:38:51.525
needed like lots of surgery

00:38:51.664 --> 00:38:52.445
and was essentially

00:38:52.465 --> 00:38:54.547
bedridden for a while.

00:38:54.646 --> 00:38:55.668
And then even when she wasn't,

00:38:55.688 --> 00:38:56.827
she's like on crutches for

00:38:57.007 --> 00:38:57.829
a really long time.

00:38:58.389 --> 00:39:01.311
Um, so I, I was lucky enough that, uh,

00:39:01.530 --> 00:39:02.351
I was working at human made

00:39:02.411 --> 00:39:03.492
and they let me take

00:39:03.512 --> 00:39:04.472
compassionate leave to take

00:39:04.492 --> 00:39:05.614
care of her and the family.

00:39:06.173 --> 00:39:07.074
Um, because you know,

00:39:07.094 --> 00:39:08.434
she was a stay at home mom.

00:39:08.494 --> 00:39:09.436
So like, yeah.

00:39:09.695 --> 00:39:12.418
That I needed to assume that role.

00:39:13.378 --> 00:39:15.480
So so I was I did that.

00:39:15.599 --> 00:39:16.519
And but at the time,

00:39:16.539 --> 00:39:18.902
it also coincided with I

00:39:18.922 --> 00:39:20.342
was super burned out.

00:39:21.422 --> 00:39:22.523
And I was at least at the

00:39:22.563 --> 00:39:23.684
point of burnout where I

00:39:23.744 --> 00:39:24.925
realized I was burned out,

00:39:25.304 --> 00:39:26.306
burned out because there's

00:39:26.326 --> 00:39:27.947
a period of time when I was

00:39:28.007 --> 00:39:29.146
burnt out and I didn't

00:39:29.188 --> 00:39:30.108
realize I was burned out.

00:39:30.188 --> 00:39:31.289
I just thought I sucked.

00:39:31.989 --> 00:39:35.612
um and and like I was was

00:39:35.652 --> 00:39:38.012
going through like I can't

00:39:38.032 --> 00:39:39.114
do this anymore I can't

00:39:39.134 --> 00:39:40.614
compete in like this I

00:39:40.655 --> 00:39:41.815
can't be a developer I'm

00:39:41.856 --> 00:39:43.097
like horrible I'm never

00:39:43.137 --> 00:39:44.358
gonna like be any better

00:39:44.378 --> 00:39:46.139
than I am today um

00:39:46.298 --> 00:39:48.561
everything is bad um and

00:39:49.001 --> 00:39:49.661
and then there's a certain

00:39:49.702 --> 00:39:51.163
point it's like no I I I'm

00:39:51.342 --> 00:39:53.083
burnt out and I need time

00:39:53.605 --> 00:39:54.905
um and it just sort of

00:39:54.985 --> 00:39:57.027
coincided with when this happened like

00:39:57.427 --> 00:39:59.048
that uh that compassionate

00:39:59.088 --> 00:40:00.150
leave was also sort of like

00:40:00.190 --> 00:40:02.331
my burnout retreat um and

00:40:02.371 --> 00:40:04.293
the thing so during the

00:40:04.333 --> 00:40:05.554
pandemic you know some

00:40:05.574 --> 00:40:07.637
people got into sourdough I

00:40:07.657 --> 00:40:11.742
got into dnd um and I went

00:40:11.882 --> 00:40:13.583
really hard into d I got

00:40:13.643 --> 00:40:15.025
really into animal crossing

00:40:16.005 --> 00:40:17.327
a lot of people did a lot

00:40:17.367 --> 00:40:18.869
of people did so I don't

00:40:20.650 --> 00:40:22.630
I got super into D&D because

00:40:22.650 --> 00:40:24.831
I had been running a game for my kids.

00:40:25.293 --> 00:40:26.432
And then when the pandemic

00:40:26.452 --> 00:40:27.454
hit and we stopped being

00:40:27.474 --> 00:40:28.635
able to play in person,

00:40:29.255 --> 00:40:30.556
that was when I realized, oh,

00:40:30.596 --> 00:40:32.297
this isn't just for the kids anymore.

00:40:32.677 --> 00:40:33.777
This is a creative outlet

00:40:33.797 --> 00:40:35.219
that my brain needs now.

00:40:35.398 --> 00:40:37.820
And now that I took it away,

00:40:38.099 --> 00:40:39.141
I am struggling.

00:40:39.161 --> 00:40:39.902
Yeah.

00:40:40.942 --> 00:40:41.963
And one of the things that I

00:40:42.003 --> 00:40:45.045
did during the pandemic was

00:40:45.286 --> 00:40:47.228
or during my compassionate

00:40:47.248 --> 00:40:48.889
leave was get super deeper

00:40:48.989 --> 00:40:50.130
into D&D things.

00:40:50.530 --> 00:40:54.054
I spent hours like building there.

00:40:54.074 --> 00:40:55.936
There's a platform called

00:40:55.956 --> 00:40:57.557
Roll twenty and they have like, you know,

00:40:57.577 --> 00:40:59.360
it's a tabletop virtual

00:40:59.380 --> 00:41:00.280
tabletop and you can make.

00:41:00.721 --> 00:41:02.643
and you can import maps and

00:41:02.663 --> 00:41:03.864
you can do all sorts of lighting things.

00:41:03.903 --> 00:41:05.264
And I spent like days

00:41:06.126 --> 00:41:08.086
putting lighting effects on

00:41:08.128 --> 00:41:09.409
this map that I got from

00:41:09.509 --> 00:41:10.329
somewhere else that was

00:41:10.349 --> 00:41:11.851
this ridiculously large

00:41:11.951 --> 00:41:13.072
multi-level dungeon.

00:41:13.092 --> 00:41:14.012
And I was doing all of the

00:41:14.052 --> 00:41:14.972
like the walls and the

00:41:15.032 --> 00:41:15.693
lighting effects for

00:41:15.733 --> 00:41:16.775
everything so I could run it.

00:41:17.195 --> 00:41:18.655
And it was not nearly like...

00:41:19.737 --> 00:41:20.838
It was not nearly as good as

00:41:20.858 --> 00:41:21.958
you could have done, but I was like,

00:41:22.139 --> 00:41:25.581
B is really painstaking work, right?

00:41:25.842 --> 00:41:26.882
And to your point of

00:41:26.922 --> 00:41:28.204
thinking about what you

00:41:28.224 --> 00:41:30.266
could do in another life, at the time,

00:41:31.367 --> 00:41:33.329
there was the emergence of

00:41:33.389 --> 00:41:36.110
the idea of a paid dungeon master.

00:41:38.172 --> 00:41:39.112
And I mean, that exists now.

00:41:39.132 --> 00:41:40.094
There's websites like

00:41:40.114 --> 00:41:41.655
startplaying.games where

00:41:41.695 --> 00:41:42.735
people sell their services

00:41:42.775 --> 00:41:44.757
as a dungeon master or a

00:41:44.797 --> 00:41:46.358
game master for whatever game.

00:41:46.739 --> 00:41:47.860
And I had the thought, you know,

00:41:49.047 --> 00:41:52.032
if in the perfect world,

00:41:52.554 --> 00:41:53.817
this would be really cool.

00:41:54.016 --> 00:41:56.181
And also I'm doing so much work.

00:41:56.282 --> 00:41:57.503
I should definitely be paid

00:41:57.543 --> 00:41:58.125
for all of this.

00:41:59.670 --> 00:41:59.789
See,

00:41:59.829 --> 00:42:02.931
that's where I had this reflection the

00:42:02.951 --> 00:42:05.652
other day about like where AI,

00:42:05.773 --> 00:42:06.773
like I feel like some of

00:42:06.793 --> 00:42:08.494
the stuff I'm doing with AI

00:42:08.534 --> 00:42:11.255
now and the lower end stuff

00:42:11.315 --> 00:42:12.554
I'm letting it do, right?

00:42:12.574 --> 00:42:14.956
The workflow stuff so that I

00:42:15.036 --> 00:42:17.036
can do more of the stuff

00:42:17.097 --> 00:42:18.717
that I know that helps me

00:42:18.757 --> 00:42:22.500
from the burnout, which I think is good,

00:42:22.639 --> 00:42:23.119
right?

00:42:23.179 --> 00:42:25.820
Like it's all good because I'm,

00:42:26.240 --> 00:42:28.663
then recharging myself and I

00:42:29.364 --> 00:42:31.365
yeah so I think like if we

00:42:31.405 --> 00:42:32.907
start to see like where can

00:42:32.947 --> 00:42:36.070
we continue to use tools

00:42:36.170 --> 00:42:37.331
can we continue to have

00:42:37.371 --> 00:42:38.211
workflows I don't know

00:42:38.291 --> 00:42:39.193
whether this is true for

00:42:39.213 --> 00:42:41.153
you but since I've I now

00:42:41.173 --> 00:42:42.215
know it's burnout for a

00:42:42.275 --> 00:42:43.315
long time I was like I'm

00:42:43.356 --> 00:42:45.077
not burnt out I don't I

00:42:45.097 --> 00:42:46.298
will never have that that's

00:42:46.338 --> 00:42:50.983
such a gen x thing yeah yeah burnouts for

00:42:51.362 --> 00:42:55.445
not me.

00:42:56.427 --> 00:43:00.608
But the reality is that I

00:43:00.648 --> 00:43:02.210
don't ever want to have it again,

00:43:02.231 --> 00:43:04.391
because it was really long.

00:43:04.972 --> 00:43:08.155
And I'm pretty solid out of it now.

00:43:08.414 --> 00:43:09.695
And the reason I'm out of it

00:43:09.795 --> 00:43:11.197
is I have a lot of

00:43:11.896 --> 00:43:13.617
processes and systems in

00:43:13.657 --> 00:43:15.219
place and I now know what

00:43:15.259 --> 00:43:18.199
to do and I like to I use

00:43:18.219 --> 00:43:19.161
quite a bit of technology

00:43:19.201 --> 00:43:20.561
to do that and I'm using

00:43:20.621 --> 00:43:21.681
more and more of the

00:43:21.722 --> 00:43:22.922
technologies that I can I

00:43:22.943 --> 00:43:23.742
don't know if that's the

00:43:23.762 --> 00:43:24.864
case for you that you're

00:43:24.884 --> 00:43:26.164
like where can I systemize

00:43:26.525 --> 00:43:28.125
to um particularly lean on

00:43:28.385 --> 00:43:29.626
like workflows where can I

00:43:29.706 --> 00:43:31.586
use AI to be faster and

00:43:31.626 --> 00:43:32.768
when I mean AI I'm using

00:43:32.788 --> 00:43:33.867
this general bucket of

00:43:34.009 --> 00:43:35.028
anything that's new that

00:43:35.068 --> 00:43:36.550
has a sparkle on it technology

00:43:39.268 --> 00:43:40.670
Yeah, actually,

00:43:41.150 --> 00:43:41.690
my partner and I were

00:43:41.710 --> 00:43:42.510
having a conversation about

00:43:42.530 --> 00:43:43.771
this yesterday because we

00:43:43.791 --> 00:43:45.974
got into this debate about, like,

00:43:46.914 --> 00:43:48.556
we had this conversation a

00:43:48.576 --> 00:43:49.936
couple months ago about,

00:43:50.958 --> 00:43:52.197
I think at the time I had

00:43:52.418 --> 00:43:55.541
recently read an article about how,

00:43:56.240 --> 00:43:58.322
or seen an interview about how Spotify,

00:43:59.224 --> 00:44:00.985
the way that it, like, it has, like,

00:44:01.065 --> 00:44:02.746
secret sort of partnerships with, like,

00:44:02.945 --> 00:44:03.927
royalty-free music theaters.

00:44:04.447 --> 00:44:06.409
companies that like add like

00:44:06.548 --> 00:44:07.688
sort of fake artists that

00:44:07.710 --> 00:44:10.110
they then inject into some

00:44:10.130 --> 00:44:10.871
of their discoverer

00:44:10.911 --> 00:44:12.072
playlists and things like that,

00:44:12.112 --> 00:44:13.773
because it's basically cheaper for them.

00:44:14.213 --> 00:44:15.355
And so like when you're

00:44:15.375 --> 00:44:17.456
listening to a Spotify generated playlist,

00:44:17.476 --> 00:44:19.336
you're listening to a thing

00:44:19.376 --> 00:44:21.458
that Spotify thinks you

00:44:21.478 --> 00:44:22.659
should listen to based on

00:44:22.860 --> 00:44:23.639
maybe your behavior,

00:44:23.679 --> 00:44:24.721
but also with these like

00:44:24.760 --> 00:44:26.882
maybe a insidious little

00:44:26.902 --> 00:44:27.822
thing inserted in there so

00:44:27.842 --> 00:44:28.503
that they can get some

00:44:28.523 --> 00:44:30.824
revenue out of that.

00:44:30.925 --> 00:44:32.485
And it takes sort of like

00:44:32.525 --> 00:44:33.907
your own sort of brain out of it.

00:44:34.927 --> 00:44:37.309
And the counterpoint to that is like, well,

00:44:37.349 --> 00:44:38.331
you can be more intentional

00:44:38.371 --> 00:44:39.291
about like the Spotify

00:44:39.331 --> 00:44:40.112
playlist that you make.

00:44:40.152 --> 00:44:41.393
You can stop listening to

00:44:41.413 --> 00:44:44.115
Spotify and go back to like MP threes,

00:44:44.135 --> 00:44:45.016
which I have also done.

00:44:45.896 --> 00:44:46.797
But like also.

00:44:46.958 --> 00:44:47.978
I've got classic now.

00:44:48.059 --> 00:44:48.900
Yeah, right.

00:44:50.820 --> 00:44:53.244
And I've done that too.

00:44:53.264 --> 00:44:54.005
And I've gone back.

00:44:54.065 --> 00:44:56.527
I found my removable hard

00:44:56.568 --> 00:44:57.909
drive that had my MP three collection.

00:44:58.208 --> 00:44:59.110
I've added it to the network.

00:44:59.130 --> 00:44:59.771
I've started listening to that.

00:44:59.791 --> 00:45:00.371
And one of the things that

00:45:00.391 --> 00:45:01.833
I've realized is that you

00:45:01.932 --> 00:45:04.056
lose like the one thing

00:45:04.076 --> 00:45:05.757
that I feel like Spotify

00:45:05.958 --> 00:45:07.438
used to be able to do pretty well.

00:45:07.518 --> 00:45:08.820
It kind of sort of does it okay.

00:45:09.101 --> 00:45:10.641
And something that Pandora

00:45:10.681 --> 00:45:13.143
used to do really well was the idea of,

00:45:13.222 --> 00:45:13.422
OK,

00:45:13.483 --> 00:45:15.563
I see where you are and I'm going to

00:45:15.764 --> 00:45:17.105
give you some things that

00:45:17.144 --> 00:45:18.545
you don't know about or

00:45:18.565 --> 00:45:19.905
that I don't think that you know about.

00:45:20.706 --> 00:45:22.726
Sprinkle in some things that

00:45:23.128 --> 00:45:24.047
I think that you would like

00:45:24.128 --> 00:45:25.108
that you haven't told me

00:45:25.128 --> 00:45:25.989
that you already like.

00:45:26.889 --> 00:45:29.150
that sort of discovery aspect.

00:45:29.190 --> 00:45:29.632
Whereas like,

00:45:29.652 --> 00:45:31.472
if I'm just listening to my MP threes,

00:45:31.492 --> 00:45:31.793
there's like,

00:45:31.873 --> 00:45:33.213
I can try to give it like a

00:45:33.233 --> 00:45:34.835
discovery like experience,

00:45:34.856 --> 00:45:37.036
like some obscure B side or

00:45:37.077 --> 00:45:38.639
something that's not on the regular loop.

00:45:39.579 --> 00:45:39.940
But it's,

00:45:40.079 --> 00:45:42.201
it's still like coming from my own thing.

00:45:42.221 --> 00:45:43.402
And I think what I realized

00:45:43.501 --> 00:45:45.344
actually just like

00:45:45.684 --> 00:45:46.605
literally the other day is

00:45:46.625 --> 00:45:49.646
that like I did a collected like,

00:45:49.706 --> 00:45:51.987
and massive collection of MP threes.

00:45:52.648 --> 00:45:52.847
Um,

00:45:52.907 --> 00:45:54.568
and I would go deep into the sort of

00:45:54.628 --> 00:45:56.210
like music history of things.

00:45:56.230 --> 00:45:57.411
Like I would get deep into, like,

00:45:57.471 --> 00:45:59.550
I discovered like an artist

00:45:59.570 --> 00:46:00.452
and I would be like, okay,

00:46:00.572 --> 00:46:02.193
I'm going to go find all of

00:46:02.213 --> 00:46:03.773
the albums by this artist.

00:46:03.873 --> 00:46:06.735
And like, and, and that was,

00:46:06.954 --> 00:46:07.835
that was discovery.

00:46:07.875 --> 00:46:09.476
So that when, cause what I really like,

00:46:10.135 --> 00:46:13.737
is a playlist that, as a music nerd,

00:46:13.797 --> 00:46:14.637
as a DJ,

00:46:14.697 --> 00:46:16.318
as somebody who likes to share

00:46:16.358 --> 00:46:17.119
music with other people,

00:46:17.219 --> 00:46:18.219
what I really like is I

00:46:18.259 --> 00:46:19.818
like both the experience of

00:46:19.898 --> 00:46:20.780
discovering something for

00:46:20.800 --> 00:46:21.920
the first time that I like,

00:46:22.440 --> 00:46:24.300
but also listening to the

00:46:24.320 --> 00:46:25.800
things that are in the same vibe.

00:46:25.840 --> 00:46:28.963
So I created this really huge,

00:46:29.182 --> 00:46:30.722
massive collection

00:46:30.842 --> 00:46:32.103
partially because I wanted

00:46:32.123 --> 00:46:33.023
to be surprised.

00:46:33.724 --> 00:46:36.306
um and and that's a thing

00:46:36.847 --> 00:46:38.949
where like without other

00:46:39.009 --> 00:46:41.110
people it's hard like

00:46:41.231 --> 00:46:42.132
especially with music and I

00:46:42.152 --> 00:46:43.353
was reading a thing yeah an

00:46:43.393 --> 00:46:45.074
article by npr about like

00:46:45.114 --> 00:46:46.456
the the like music

00:46:46.496 --> 00:46:48.418
discovery requires people

00:46:48.438 --> 00:46:49.559
or requires inputs because

00:46:49.579 --> 00:46:51.041
you're not gonna and and

00:46:51.101 --> 00:46:53.382
like radios don't exist

00:46:53.443 --> 00:46:54.523
anymore we're all streaming

00:46:54.543 --> 00:46:55.885
services now um yeah

00:46:56.865 --> 00:46:59.688
So there's like this – it's

00:46:59.829 --> 00:47:01.791
harder to discover music

00:47:02.331 --> 00:47:04.795
now than maybe it was when

00:47:04.875 --> 00:47:06.016
we all lived on a college

00:47:06.036 --> 00:47:10.701
campus or when – We're sharing the tapes.

00:47:11.001 --> 00:47:13.364
This reminds me a little bit, I think –

00:47:13.563 --> 00:47:15.126
It's very easy to be binary

00:47:15.146 --> 00:47:16.427
about technology, right?

00:47:16.487 --> 00:47:17.668
It's very easy to be like,

00:47:17.929 --> 00:47:19.731
I am just going to use old to check.

00:47:20.293 --> 00:47:22.114
And I noticed when I

00:47:22.135 --> 00:47:23.175
brought... Because the

00:47:23.235 --> 00:47:24.737
algorithms are amazing.

00:47:26.059 --> 00:47:28.382
When I just brought my...

00:47:28.762 --> 00:47:30.003
my iPod Classic, of course,

00:47:30.023 --> 00:47:31.184
the algorithms picked up

00:47:31.204 --> 00:47:32.726
that I had bought my iPod Classic.

00:47:33.067 --> 00:47:36.248
I was getting very targeted by that.

00:47:36.670 --> 00:47:38.331
And it's like, oh, this old tech.

00:47:38.351 --> 00:47:38.972
I was like, no,

00:47:39.012 --> 00:47:40.472
I don't want just old tech.

00:47:40.733 --> 00:47:42.574
I want to pick the new tech

00:47:42.594 --> 00:47:43.695
that works for me and the

00:47:43.815 --> 00:47:45.077
old tech that works for me.

00:47:46.438 --> 00:47:47.958
A good example is I actually

00:47:47.998 --> 00:47:49.501
have two iPads and actually

00:47:49.521 --> 00:47:51.402
the one that I use is the iPad Mini more.

00:47:52.563 --> 00:47:53.525
I do have a big one,

00:47:53.605 --> 00:47:55.005
but that's great for when I'm drawing.

00:47:55.025 --> 00:47:56.947
But the iPad Mini, perfect form for me.

00:47:57.668 --> 00:47:59.610
It is, I don't know, but it works.

00:48:00.030 --> 00:48:01.351
It's like perfect.

00:48:01.632 --> 00:48:03.213
Turns out my Kindle could be

00:48:03.233 --> 00:48:03.994
a doorstopper.

00:48:04.014 --> 00:48:07.117
uh, for some reason, but I like,

00:48:07.677 --> 00:48:09.079
I'm okay reading Kindle

00:48:09.099 --> 00:48:10.320
stuff on my iPad mini.

00:48:11.039 --> 00:48:13.702
So, but that's, that's as a,

00:48:13.722 --> 00:48:14.983
another person would have

00:48:15.043 --> 00:48:15.784
very difference.

00:48:15.824 --> 00:48:16.903
And I think that's the thing

00:48:16.965 --> 00:48:19.085
we maybe forget that in

00:48:19.365 --> 00:48:22.307
those kind of days of past,

00:48:22.347 --> 00:48:24.070
we didn't have a choice, right?

00:48:24.190 --> 00:48:25.471
It was just one device and

00:48:25.510 --> 00:48:27.032
you had to get used to it.

00:48:27.311 --> 00:48:28.393
So we maybe look a bit for

00:48:28.413 --> 00:48:29.393
it with these like rose

00:48:29.432 --> 00:48:30.673
tinted glasses a little bit.

00:48:30.733 --> 00:48:31.873
And we're like, oh,

00:48:31.893 --> 00:48:32.914
that technology is all great.

00:48:32.954 --> 00:48:34.876
Well, it didn't fit us.

00:48:35.315 --> 00:48:38.398
It wasn't like one size fit all.

00:48:38.438 --> 00:48:40.038
Like now some people want to

00:48:40.057 --> 00:48:42.079
have a Apple watch and people don't.

00:48:42.139 --> 00:48:42.599
They want to have a

00:48:42.639 --> 00:48:43.960
different wearable device, right?

00:48:43.980 --> 00:48:44.940
They want to have a ring or

00:48:44.960 --> 00:48:46.021
they want to have a different thing.

00:48:47.481 --> 00:48:48.503
And that's great.

00:48:48.583 --> 00:48:50.043
Like the technology is coming.

00:48:50.463 --> 00:48:51.184
I'm still waiting for the

00:48:51.204 --> 00:48:52.465
glasses that work really

00:48:52.505 --> 00:48:54.085
well for stigmatisms.

00:48:54.106 --> 00:48:55.206
That would be so good.

00:48:55.525 --> 00:48:56.726
Can we have those please?

00:48:59.347 --> 00:49:02.288
but it's that just enough

00:49:02.347 --> 00:49:03.668
right like and it's so

00:49:03.708 --> 00:49:05.168
personal and that's the

00:49:05.188 --> 00:49:06.349
thing the workflows and one

00:49:06.369 --> 00:49:08.929
of the things I feel now is

00:49:09.088 --> 00:49:10.969
is is critical is that we

00:49:11.010 --> 00:49:13.449
don't say this works so

00:49:13.469 --> 00:49:14.030
therefore it's going to

00:49:14.050 --> 00:49:14.889
work for everybody and

00:49:14.909 --> 00:49:15.929
that's what I really try

00:49:15.949 --> 00:49:16.550
and work when I'm working

00:49:16.570 --> 00:49:17.650
with product makers or when

00:49:17.710 --> 00:49:19.090
I'm working with companies

00:49:19.510 --> 00:49:20.331
I'm like okay I want to

00:49:20.371 --> 00:49:21.411
listen first to what your

00:49:21.452 --> 00:49:22.391
workflows are and that's

00:49:22.431 --> 00:49:23.831
maybe the difference I do to when

00:49:24.251 --> 00:49:25.331
I was doing the editor.

00:49:25.452 --> 00:49:28.873
Like back even three, four years ago,

00:49:28.893 --> 00:49:29.773
we all thought there was

00:49:30.074 --> 00:49:31.393
one way of doing things.

00:49:31.434 --> 00:49:32.114
Five years ago,

00:49:32.153 --> 00:49:32.733
we thought there's one way

00:49:32.773 --> 00:49:33.474
of doing products.

00:49:33.494 --> 00:49:34.494
There's one way of doing things.

00:49:34.855 --> 00:49:36.235
There's one way of doing everything.

00:49:36.295 --> 00:49:37.175
We're actually a little bit

00:49:37.215 --> 00:49:38.775
smarter than that now.

00:49:39.235 --> 00:49:40.217
And we're realizing there's

00:49:40.376 --> 00:49:42.036
many different ways to make products.

00:49:42.056 --> 00:49:44.077
There's many different ways to do things.

00:49:44.617 --> 00:49:46.217
And there's no right or wrong way.

00:49:46.637 --> 00:49:48.619
There's a good result there.

00:49:49.358 --> 00:49:52.460
And then there's that maybe

00:49:52.481 --> 00:49:53.842
needs a bit of iteration, right?

00:49:55.163 --> 00:49:56.503
But along the way,

00:49:56.543 --> 00:49:58.105
there are variations to that.

00:49:58.764 --> 00:50:00.166
There can be recommendations,

00:50:00.186 --> 00:50:01.226
there can be good testing,

00:50:01.467 --> 00:50:02.867
there can be not so great testing,

00:50:03.628 --> 00:50:04.088
but there's no

00:50:05.028 --> 00:50:05.849
GitHub labels.

00:50:06.030 --> 00:50:07.411
There's no one labeling

00:50:07.452 --> 00:50:08.534
system that will work in

00:50:08.653 --> 00:50:09.876
every single case, right?

00:50:10.996 --> 00:50:13.760
Yeah, that went super wide,

00:50:13.780 --> 00:50:15.182
but I think we have to, like,

00:50:15.262 --> 00:50:16.445
even down to what we have

00:50:16.465 --> 00:50:18.166
in devices that work,

00:50:18.206 --> 00:50:20.150
we have to be a little bit more...

00:50:21.672 --> 00:50:23.713
eclectic in what we have and

00:50:23.753 --> 00:50:25.074
I think the the kind of

00:50:25.094 --> 00:50:26.775
longer that we're I find

00:50:26.875 --> 00:50:28.074
I'm in tech the more

00:50:28.135 --> 00:50:30.657
eclectic my bag is that I'm

00:50:30.677 --> 00:50:31.597
wandering around with it's

00:50:31.697 --> 00:50:32.797
an extremely eclectic

00:50:32.958 --> 00:50:34.898
collection of devices and I

00:50:34.918 --> 00:50:36.579
think that's okay like

00:50:36.679 --> 00:50:37.420
we're gonna I've been

00:50:37.440 --> 00:50:38.920
looking at the you know

00:50:38.960 --> 00:50:40.021
I've got my Mac but the

00:50:40.041 --> 00:50:41.161
framework laptop I

00:50:41.242 --> 00:50:43.242
absolutely adore and I do

00:50:43.282 --> 00:50:43.963
think at some point I'm

00:50:43.983 --> 00:50:44.844
going to have one but that

00:50:44.864 --> 00:50:46.804
would be my gaming laptop right um

00:50:47.565 --> 00:50:48.865
I don't know if you feel the same,

00:50:48.905 --> 00:50:50.027
like it's picking and

00:50:50.047 --> 00:50:53.849
choosing the best thing for you, right?

00:50:53.869 --> 00:50:54.449
And I think that's okay.

00:50:54.469 --> 00:50:54.550
Yeah.

00:50:54.570 --> 00:50:54.650
Yeah.

00:50:54.670 --> 00:50:55.809
The framework laptops look really cool.

00:50:55.829 --> 00:50:55.990
They do.

00:50:56.610 --> 00:50:57.831
Yeah.

00:50:57.871 --> 00:50:58.032
Well,

00:50:58.112 --> 00:50:59.652
I think that's a really good place to

00:50:59.693 --> 00:50:59.913
stop.

00:50:59.952 --> 00:51:00.373
I think that's,

00:51:02.014 --> 00:51:03.434
and thank you very much for

00:51:03.454 --> 00:51:05.237
coming on to the show again.

00:51:05.717 --> 00:51:07.458
I say again, for the listeners,

00:51:07.518 --> 00:51:09.039
it's not again, but for me, it's again,

00:51:10.059 --> 00:51:11.239
we won't talk about what happened,

00:51:11.621 --> 00:51:12.081
but yeah.

00:51:12.141 --> 00:51:13.061
can read about it on the on

00:51:13.101 --> 00:51:15.402
the website um but speaking

00:51:15.443 --> 00:51:16.364
of websites where can

00:51:16.403 --> 00:51:18.445
people find you online uh

00:51:18.465 --> 00:51:19.405
so you can find me on karma

00:51:19.425 --> 00:51:20.666
toast on all the things

00:51:20.686 --> 00:51:21.626
that's probably the easiest

00:51:21.646 --> 00:51:22.606
way and by night

00:51:22.626 --> 00:51:24.108
thoughts.com is where I

00:51:24.128 --> 00:51:25.228
write things and I'm trying

00:51:25.248 --> 00:51:26.208
to write more because I

00:51:26.248 --> 00:51:27.250
also think we should start

00:51:27.289 --> 00:51:29.090
writing more yes absolutely

00:51:29.391 --> 00:51:30.632
well again thank you for uh

00:51:30.911 --> 00:51:32.552
coming on tammy and thank

00:51:32.592 --> 00:51:34.414
you all uh thank you you're

00:51:34.434 --> 00:51:35.614
welcome uh and thank

00:51:35.755 --> 00:51:37.056
everyone for for listening

00:51:37.096 --> 00:51:38.597
and watching uh the show

00:51:38.737 --> 00:51:40.297
and uh we'll see you on the internet