WEBVTT 00:00:19.838 --> 00:00:21.077 Welcome to Community & Code, 00:00:21.117 --> 00:00:24.038 the podcast where we talk to the human 00:00:24.099 --> 00:00:25.538 beings behind the commits. 00:00:26.140 --> 00:00:28.300 I am here today with Mike Demo, 00:00:28.320 --> 00:00:30.721 who is a technical account manager at 00:00:30.781 --> 00:00:31.861 Hosting.com. 00:00:32.160 --> 00:00:32.500 Although, 00:00:32.721 --> 00:00:36.042 we actually met up last week in WordCamp 00:00:36.082 --> 00:00:38.542 Canada and, like, 00:00:39.463 --> 00:00:41.625 I want to let you explain what it 00:00:41.664 --> 00:00:42.846 is that you actually do, 00:00:42.865 --> 00:00:45.047 because I don't know that the words that, 00:00:45.068 --> 00:00:45.468 uh, 00:00:45.568 --> 00:00:47.609 are in your title necessarily represent, 00:00:47.890 --> 00:00:49.931 uh, accurately the things that you do. 00:00:51.112 --> 00:00:51.552 Yeah. 00:00:51.593 --> 00:00:53.795 So my title has actually been updated 00:00:53.895 --> 00:00:55.396 since I filled out your form. 00:00:55.436 --> 00:00:58.920 Um, uh, I'm going off of LinkedIn. 00:00:58.960 --> 00:01:01.962 So you need to update that buddy. 00:01:02.101 --> 00:01:03.222 I updated LinkedIn. 00:01:03.243 --> 00:01:03.283 Um, 00:01:04.936 --> 00:01:05.936 At least I thought I did. 00:01:06.378 --> 00:01:07.118 Anyway, whatever. 00:01:07.198 --> 00:01:09.219 So, yeah. 00:01:09.238 --> 00:01:11.399 Partnerships lead. 00:01:11.460 --> 00:01:11.539 Okay. 00:01:11.700 --> 00:01:12.560 You updated your title. 00:01:12.579 --> 00:01:13.740 You didn't update your headline. 00:01:13.780 --> 00:01:15.060 That's the thing. 00:01:15.081 --> 00:01:15.740 Oh, okay. 00:01:15.761 --> 00:01:16.341 Yeah. 00:01:16.381 --> 00:01:18.121 So I did not update my headline. 00:01:18.301 --> 00:01:19.243 I do need to do that. 00:01:19.482 --> 00:01:19.703 Yes. 00:01:20.383 --> 00:01:21.904 So partnerships lead North America. 00:01:21.963 --> 00:01:22.084 Yeah. 00:01:22.843 --> 00:01:26.646 slash technical account manager line is I 00:01:26.686 --> 00:01:30.126 help agencies and their developers be more 00:01:30.147 --> 00:01:31.768 efficient in what they do. 00:01:31.908 --> 00:01:35.909 So that could mean helping them get set 00:01:35.950 --> 00:01:37.831 up on the right type of server or 00:01:38.271 --> 00:01:40.652 helping them optimize their RFP process so 00:01:40.671 --> 00:01:41.471 they can sell more. 00:01:42.733 --> 00:01:45.475 slash basically just connecting people and 00:01:45.615 --> 00:01:49.299 trying to help humans meet other humans in 00:01:49.319 --> 00:01:51.200 a very non-sales way. 00:01:51.421 --> 00:01:53.322 So that's basically what I do. 00:01:54.484 --> 00:01:56.486 My title at InMotion Hosting when I worked 00:01:56.527 --> 00:01:57.987 there was lead handshaker, 00:01:58.087 --> 00:02:00.049 and that's basically still my role today. 00:02:00.150 --> 00:02:02.730 That sounds appropriate. 00:02:03.951 --> 00:02:07.572 What you're not saying is that we see 00:02:07.612 --> 00:02:10.493 each other basically at every WordPress 00:02:10.534 --> 00:02:11.694 event that I go to, 00:02:12.694 --> 00:02:14.715 and I'm sure there are many that I 00:02:14.756 --> 00:02:15.495 don't go to. 00:02:15.555 --> 00:02:16.777 So also, 00:02:17.516 --> 00:02:19.558 I understand that there is a fair amount 00:02:19.578 --> 00:02:20.078 of travel, 00:02:20.457 --> 00:02:23.579 which makes it feel to me as someone 00:02:23.599 --> 00:02:24.439 who is in DevRel, 00:02:25.439 --> 00:02:27.502 that you kind of do a lot of 00:02:27.542 --> 00:02:28.983 like the dev rally stuff, 00:02:29.043 --> 00:02:31.104 maybe not the developer advocacy stuff, 00:02:31.123 --> 00:02:33.846 but definitely like the going places and 00:02:33.925 --> 00:02:37.467 talking to people and trying to figure out 00:02:37.687 --> 00:02:40.310 solutions and best practices for what 00:02:40.370 --> 00:02:42.311 works for the people that you're talking 00:02:42.350 --> 00:02:43.431 to at things like this. 00:02:43.951 --> 00:02:44.633 Is that not accurate? 00:02:45.998 --> 00:02:47.620 No, I would say that's very accurate. 00:02:48.221 --> 00:02:49.942 Definitely not like pushing like a set of 00:02:49.981 --> 00:02:51.462 APIs or anything like that. 00:02:51.582 --> 00:02:54.425 But I'm talking to developers that work at 00:02:54.485 --> 00:02:55.085 agencies, 00:02:55.245 --> 00:02:57.546 specifically larger agencies about their 00:02:57.586 --> 00:02:58.247 pain points. 00:02:59.268 --> 00:03:00.688 What do they like with their existing 00:03:00.729 --> 00:03:01.248 provider? 00:03:01.569 --> 00:03:02.550 What don't they like? 00:03:02.669 --> 00:03:05.292 What do they wish they could do from 00:03:05.312 --> 00:03:06.513 a platform perspective? 00:03:06.573 --> 00:03:08.193 And then, you know, helping them, 00:03:08.653 --> 00:03:09.495 if it makes sense, 00:03:10.055 --> 00:03:12.956 utilizing some of our services, or if not, 00:03:13.717 --> 00:03:15.299 you know, making recommendations for, 00:03:16.719 --> 00:03:19.763 different things that might help fulfill 00:03:19.782 --> 00:03:20.343 their needs. 00:03:21.564 --> 00:03:22.286 And a lot of the time, 00:03:22.325 --> 00:03:24.448 it's just edge case stuff where, hey, 00:03:24.508 --> 00:03:26.008 I have this client who needs this 00:03:26.049 --> 00:03:27.610 certification I've never heard of. 00:03:27.931 --> 00:03:29.353 Do you have this? 00:03:29.372 --> 00:03:30.354 And I'm like, yes, yes, we do. 00:03:30.373 --> 00:03:31.474 Here's the documentation. 00:03:31.935 --> 00:03:33.317 Okay, great. 00:03:33.336 --> 00:03:34.478 So it really just depends. 00:03:34.538 --> 00:03:36.258 But bottom line, just trying to add value 00:03:37.000 --> 00:03:37.901 Wherever it makes sense. 00:03:38.061 --> 00:03:39.361 Sometimes that involves our products. 00:03:40.683 --> 00:03:41.443 Sometimes it doesn't. 00:03:41.563 --> 00:03:42.985 Sometimes that means recommending other 00:03:43.006 --> 00:03:43.526 providers. 00:03:44.447 --> 00:03:46.748 It just depends on what's best for the 00:03:46.769 --> 00:03:47.669 people I'm talking to. 00:03:47.729 --> 00:03:48.531 And at the end of the day, 00:03:48.570 --> 00:03:50.332 that's what people remember is you being 00:03:50.353 --> 00:03:54.616 helpful, not product A or product B. Yeah, 00:03:54.697 --> 00:03:54.856 yeah. 00:03:56.341 --> 00:03:56.501 Well, 00:03:56.600 --> 00:04:02.004 I have the extra bonus benefit of knowing 00:04:02.044 --> 00:04:05.247 you from the very beginnings of your 00:04:05.388 --> 00:04:09.951 WordPress origin story because what folks 00:04:10.372 --> 00:04:12.753 who don't know either of us or both 00:04:12.794 --> 00:04:16.957 of us might not know is that Mike's 00:04:17.117 --> 00:04:19.118 first WordCamp was my WordCamp, 00:04:19.179 --> 00:04:21.901 WordCamp Salt Lake City, that I was... 00:04:22.602 --> 00:04:24.582 either organizing or co organizing. 00:04:24.603 --> 00:04:26.024 I can't remember what I was doing then. 00:04:26.903 --> 00:04:29.004 If it was, I'm looking at your thing, 00:04:29.066 --> 00:04:30.325 if it's was, 00:04:31.167 --> 00:04:34.788 if that's the year I probably was probably 00:04:34.829 --> 00:04:35.749 lead organizing that one. 00:04:35.968 --> 00:04:36.428 I don't remember. 00:04:36.750 --> 00:04:39.591 It was a long, long time ago. 00:04:39.630 --> 00:04:43.052 But yeah, so like, tell the story of, 00:04:43.312 --> 00:04:43.612 of, 00:04:44.473 --> 00:04:48.435 of your how that how that became your 00:04:48.615 --> 00:04:50.357 entry point into WordPress. 00:04:51.641 --> 00:04:51.940 Yeah, 00:04:52.002 --> 00:04:54.584 so I've been in open source a very 00:04:54.644 --> 00:04:55.305 long time. 00:04:56.747 --> 00:04:59.269 I steal a quote from Jessica Dunbar, 00:04:59.310 --> 00:05:02.033 who was the evangelist for Concrete Five 00:05:02.134 --> 00:05:02.634 CMS. 00:05:03.555 --> 00:05:05.036 I'm not married to a CMS. 00:05:05.338 --> 00:05:06.819 I'm in an open source relationship. 00:05:09.761 --> 00:05:10.682 And I started in Joomla. 00:05:11.682 --> 00:05:12.442 Well, technically, 00:05:14.002 --> 00:05:15.084 from a community standpoint, 00:05:15.184 --> 00:05:16.084 I started in Joomla. 00:05:16.144 --> 00:05:17.225 So I was in the Joomla community a 00:05:17.245 --> 00:05:18.105 very long time, 00:05:18.185 --> 00:05:20.987 and I was doing senior dev stuff at 00:05:21.047 --> 00:05:21.766 agencies, 00:05:22.827 --> 00:05:25.428 mostly Joomla sites for banks and credit 00:05:25.509 --> 00:05:28.930 unions and then private equity portfolios 00:05:28.971 --> 00:05:29.610 and things like that. 00:05:31.512 --> 00:05:35.036 And I ran into Todd at a hosting 00:05:35.055 --> 00:05:35.435 conference. 00:05:35.495 --> 00:05:37.038 It was Hosting Con in New Orleans. 00:05:37.757 --> 00:05:39.098 And I was speaking there on behalf of 00:05:39.119 --> 00:05:42.122 Joomla because I was the finance team lead 00:05:42.141 --> 00:05:42.663 at the time, 00:05:43.744 --> 00:05:45.444 which basically means selling sponsorships 00:05:45.646 --> 00:05:48.949 to, you know, companies I want to sponsor, 00:05:50.250 --> 00:05:52.512 which basically means selling to hosting 00:05:52.531 --> 00:05:54.613 companies to sponsor the project, 00:05:54.653 --> 00:05:55.855 just like hosting. 00:05:56.117 --> 00:05:59.661 all the open source projects still do um 00:05:59.721 --> 00:06:01.041 and i ran into todd and i met 00:06:01.081 --> 00:06:02.862 todd before at the jumla world conference 00:06:03.103 --> 00:06:04.963 um he's the co-founder of in motion and 00:06:05.004 --> 00:06:07.105 they were promoting bold grid which was 00:06:07.125 --> 00:06:10.348 their big uh a new push into wordpress 00:06:10.387 --> 00:06:12.269 at the time we started talking they were 00:06:12.290 --> 00:06:13.911 looking for an evangelist he said it's not 00:06:13.951 --> 00:06:16.833 jumla i said that's fine and uh 00:06:17.971 --> 00:06:20.033 I basically was offered a job, 00:06:20.093 --> 00:06:21.394 but he wanted to make sure I wouldn't 00:06:21.435 --> 00:06:22.875 burst into flames if I walked into a 00:06:22.937 --> 00:06:23.396 WordCamp. 00:06:24.257 --> 00:06:27.079 So he sent me to Salt Lake City 00:06:27.581 --> 00:06:29.622 as kind of like an interview. 00:06:30.442 --> 00:06:32.946 And yeah, that was my first WordCamp. 00:06:33.586 --> 00:06:35.026 And the funny part about that is the 00:06:35.146 --> 00:06:37.528 agency I was at was a downtown agency 00:06:37.548 --> 00:06:38.389 in Minneapolis. 00:06:38.908 --> 00:06:40.449 They were a WordPress agency, 00:06:40.790 --> 00:06:43.673 and I just finished a year-long project 00:06:43.713 --> 00:06:44.973 converting them all to Joomla. 00:06:44.992 --> 00:06:48.415 I left to go work at InMotion as 00:06:48.475 --> 00:06:49.475 a WordPress evangelist. 00:06:49.596 --> 00:06:52.538 So that's kind of how I started in 00:06:52.598 --> 00:06:53.098 WordPress, 00:06:53.199 --> 00:06:55.980 and the rest is kind of history. 00:06:56.000 --> 00:06:58.382 I don't know that we've ever talked about 00:06:58.422 --> 00:07:00.863 this, but that just makes me wonder... 00:07:02.093 --> 00:07:03.192 Why Salt Lake City? 00:07:03.512 --> 00:07:06.374 Why was my WordCamp the WordCamp that you 00:07:06.394 --> 00:07:06.994 got sent to? 00:07:07.053 --> 00:07:08.235 Is there any particular reason? 00:07:09.915 --> 00:07:10.615 I don't think so. 00:07:10.716 --> 00:07:12.196 I think InMotion, 00:07:13.536 --> 00:07:15.057 they were a global sponsor, 00:07:15.076 --> 00:07:16.536 or at least a North American global 00:07:16.557 --> 00:07:17.036 sponsor. 00:07:17.057 --> 00:07:18.778 Yeah, I think I remember their logo. 00:07:20.115 --> 00:07:21.935 and i think it was just the closest 00:07:22.117 --> 00:07:24.718 the neck whatever the next one was yeah 00:07:24.737 --> 00:07:28.721 they had people going to um i don't 00:07:28.740 --> 00:07:31.161 think there was any specific reason um it 00:07:31.201 --> 00:07:32.622 was my first time in salt lake city 00:07:32.702 --> 00:07:34.964 so that was cool i got to see 00:07:34.985 --> 00:07:37.927 the tabernacle choir so that was exciting 00:07:37.947 --> 00:07:41.249 um did you get to do anything fun 00:07:41.288 --> 00:07:42.230 in salt lake city though uh 00:07:45.605 --> 00:07:46.766 That first trip, 00:07:46.987 --> 00:07:49.269 not so much because I came in so 00:07:49.329 --> 00:07:49.930 late at night. 00:07:51.211 --> 00:07:52.791 And I was also nervous because it was 00:07:52.812 --> 00:07:53.572 a job interview. 00:07:53.591 --> 00:07:55.413 I didn't really know what to expect. 00:07:55.454 --> 00:07:57.074 So I didn't really do a lot of 00:07:57.274 --> 00:07:57.935 that trip. 00:07:58.997 --> 00:08:00.877 I did the Tabernacle Choir and Temple 00:08:00.898 --> 00:08:04.240 Square and that was better. 00:08:04.261 --> 00:08:05.341 From an architecture standpoint, 00:08:05.382 --> 00:08:06.062 it was super pretty. 00:08:06.161 --> 00:08:07.742 But future trips, 00:08:07.764 --> 00:08:08.584 I've been to Salt Lake many, 00:08:08.624 --> 00:08:09.504 many times since then. 00:08:09.564 --> 00:08:12.387 And I've done lots of other things like 00:08:12.447 --> 00:08:13.848 Park City and all that. 00:08:13.867 --> 00:08:13.968 Yeah. 00:08:15.249 --> 00:08:18.209 Yeah, I always, like I said, 00:08:18.250 --> 00:08:19.870 we just came back from WordCamp Canada, 00:08:20.011 --> 00:08:23.752 and I always have this problem with going 00:08:23.833 --> 00:08:26.093 out to events because, like, 00:08:26.874 --> 00:08:28.735 unless you're going to tack on a day 00:08:28.795 --> 00:08:31.795 or two or something, basically, like, 00:08:32.456 --> 00:08:34.516 you're not going to a place, 00:08:34.536 --> 00:08:37.077 you're going to a conference center and a 00:08:37.158 --> 00:08:38.699 hotel, you know, like, 00:08:39.560 --> 00:08:40.920 I didn't see Ottawa. 00:08:41.521 --> 00:08:44.805 I saw the inside of my hotel. 00:08:45.005 --> 00:08:48.288 I saw about one block's worth of downtown. 00:08:48.889 --> 00:08:53.134 I saw a small corner of Carleton 00:08:53.193 --> 00:08:53.914 University. 00:08:54.556 --> 00:08:58.279 And, like, I saw a... What was... 00:08:58.921 --> 00:08:59.240 I guess... 00:09:00.341 --> 00:09:02.042 a pool place. 00:09:02.162 --> 00:09:04.003 Dooley's is, I think, a Canadian thing, 00:09:04.023 --> 00:09:05.342 but I didn't have the context for that. 00:09:05.423 --> 00:09:07.043 And then, like, a bar. 00:09:08.482 --> 00:09:09.964 That's what I saw. 00:09:09.984 --> 00:09:12.024 And a very eclectic vegan fast food 00:09:12.063 --> 00:09:12.423 restaurant. 00:09:12.624 --> 00:09:14.124 And a very eclectic vegan fast food 00:09:14.163 --> 00:09:14.484 restaurant. 00:09:14.543 --> 00:09:16.544 Yes, correct. 00:09:17.784 --> 00:09:19.424 Yeah, so people are like, oh, man, 00:09:19.445 --> 00:09:20.164 you're so lucky. 00:09:21.525 --> 00:09:22.926 I travel way less than I used to, 00:09:23.186 --> 00:09:25.105 but at the height of my travel was 00:09:25.125 --> 00:09:27.386 one hundred and fifty seven days a year. 00:09:29.767 --> 00:09:32.708 and so that had good and bad parts 00:09:32.749 --> 00:09:34.530 of it but i would always say yep 00:09:34.571 --> 00:09:37.413 conference rooms around the world you know 00:09:37.472 --> 00:09:40.715 so what i always try to do although 00:09:41.676 --> 00:09:43.456 i've been doing this less the older i 00:09:43.476 --> 00:09:46.499 get is i try to get the latest 00:09:46.538 --> 00:09:49.441 flight out on the last day and try 00:09:49.480 --> 00:09:51.342 to have like 00:09:53.380 --> 00:09:55.241 a half day to do something in the 00:09:55.302 --> 00:09:55.381 city. 00:09:57.081 --> 00:09:59.202 And I still always try to do something, 00:10:00.163 --> 00:10:01.903 but it doesn't always work out. 00:10:02.943 --> 00:10:05.644 And I also find myself going back to 00:10:05.684 --> 00:10:07.725 the hotel and sleeping when I plan to 00:10:07.764 --> 00:10:08.044 like, 00:10:08.345 --> 00:10:09.706 but I had these grand visions in my 00:10:09.745 --> 00:10:10.206 head to, 00:10:11.865 --> 00:10:12.745 do this or that. 00:10:13.866 --> 00:10:15.107 But I was in London a few weeks 00:10:15.148 --> 00:10:16.669 ago with some coworkers and we went to 00:10:16.690 --> 00:10:18.991 the Jurassic world expedition exhibit. 00:10:19.432 --> 00:10:20.994 So we did that for a couple of 00:10:21.033 --> 00:10:21.413 hours. 00:10:21.453 --> 00:10:23.596 So little things like that, 00:10:23.676 --> 00:10:25.538 but definitely it's not, 00:10:25.977 --> 00:10:26.798 it's not a vacation, 00:10:27.099 --> 00:10:29.140 but the art works with it. 00:10:29.201 --> 00:10:29.721 Yeah. 00:10:29.801 --> 00:10:30.402 Yeah, for sure. 00:10:31.075 --> 00:10:32.636 Yeah, I feel that way too. 00:10:33.418 --> 00:10:33.937 Yeah, 00:10:34.198 --> 00:10:36.881 when I went to Atlanta for DrupalCon, 00:10:37.842 --> 00:10:39.004 I would like to be able to say 00:10:39.024 --> 00:10:40.645 that, at least for some of these places, 00:10:40.666 --> 00:10:41.506 I would like to be able to say 00:10:41.547 --> 00:10:43.609 that I've been there and done things. 00:10:43.649 --> 00:10:44.769 And for some WordCamps, 00:10:45.110 --> 00:10:46.552 particularly when I was at Human Made, 00:10:48.354 --> 00:10:50.014 When we went as like sort of a 00:10:50.054 --> 00:10:50.674 big group, 00:10:50.754 --> 00:10:53.174 we would do stuff together as a group 00:10:53.195 --> 00:10:55.035 that often meant like, you know, 00:10:55.456 --> 00:10:56.895 things outside of the conference. 00:10:56.916 --> 00:10:59.197 So I think that in Nashville, 00:11:00.918 --> 00:11:02.038 one of the engineers, 00:11:03.018 --> 00:11:04.918 principal engineer at Human Made now, 00:11:06.259 --> 00:11:07.938 had a contact at like one of the 00:11:08.058 --> 00:11:09.559 record pressing plants. 00:11:10.019 --> 00:11:11.140 And so they gave us a tour of 00:11:11.181 --> 00:11:12.142 the record pressing plant. 00:11:12.162 --> 00:11:12.942 That was pretty cool. 00:11:13.504 --> 00:11:14.784 I think I had a couple extra days. 00:11:14.804 --> 00:11:16.307 So like went to the museums and went 00:11:16.326 --> 00:11:17.607 to the Johnny Cash Museum, 00:11:18.389 --> 00:11:20.650 went to like a Museum of Modern Art 00:11:20.671 --> 00:11:21.071 or something. 00:11:21.091 --> 00:11:22.212 And that was cool. 00:11:23.354 --> 00:11:23.573 St. 00:11:23.614 --> 00:11:26.037 Louis got to go to City Museum. 00:11:26.736 --> 00:11:28.759 That was where the after party was, 00:11:28.798 --> 00:11:30.081 but I didn't go to the after party. 00:11:30.541 --> 00:11:32.783 But I then heard so many good things 00:11:32.823 --> 00:11:34.846 about the after party at City Museum that 00:11:34.886 --> 00:11:36.227 like I had brought my family out there 00:11:36.248 --> 00:11:36.609 with me. 00:11:37.068 --> 00:11:39.451 So like we all went then on a 00:11:39.511 --> 00:11:39.952 separate day. 00:11:40.013 --> 00:11:41.575 And then I think we went again because 00:11:41.595 --> 00:11:42.255 it was so cool. 00:11:44.873 --> 00:11:45.573 In Nashville, 00:11:45.594 --> 00:11:47.096 did you get a chance to go to 00:11:47.535 --> 00:11:49.038 tour Hatch Show Print, 00:11:49.158 --> 00:11:50.799 the print shop in the Country Music Hall 00:11:50.820 --> 00:11:51.100 of Fame? 00:11:51.460 --> 00:11:52.140 I did not. 00:11:52.662 --> 00:11:55.004 So this might be a deep cut, 00:11:55.124 --> 00:11:56.385 but do you remember the giveaway, 00:11:56.885 --> 00:11:58.567 the little poster we had at Bold Grid? 00:11:59.509 --> 00:12:00.770 I don't think that I do. 00:12:01.989 --> 00:12:04.730 um anyway long story short uh they're the 00:12:04.831 --> 00:12:09.475 oldest uh um uh printing company in uh 00:12:09.514 --> 00:12:11.657 tennessee is called hat show print and 00:12:11.677 --> 00:12:14.918 they do wood block carve printing and they 00:12:14.958 --> 00:12:16.600 do it to this day now it's part 00:12:16.640 --> 00:12:19.003 of the country music hall of fame um 00:12:19.722 --> 00:12:22.605 which is a non-profit and uh we hired 00:12:22.644 --> 00:12:25.888 them to do our giveaway posters for uh 00:12:25.927 --> 00:12:28.590 word camp that year and it was funny 00:12:28.610 --> 00:12:30.291 because everyone that wasn't local was 00:12:30.331 --> 00:12:30.552 like 00:12:31.471 --> 00:12:32.331 It's a cool design, 00:12:32.392 --> 00:12:33.072 but I don't get it. 00:12:33.352 --> 00:12:34.613 But then all the locals were like, 00:12:34.692 --> 00:12:35.352 is that Hatch? 00:12:35.413 --> 00:12:36.052 And I'm like, yeah, 00:12:36.413 --> 00:12:38.453 because it's like people that are into it. 00:12:38.474 --> 00:12:40.154 Oh, I remember that now. 00:12:40.195 --> 00:12:42.014 And I totally remember not getting it at 00:12:42.034 --> 00:12:42.455 the time. 00:12:42.975 --> 00:12:43.275 Yeah. 00:12:43.416 --> 00:12:45.375 So anyway, 00:12:45.995 --> 00:12:47.216 they also do a tour and you can 00:12:47.317 --> 00:12:48.956 make your own little poster and you learn 00:12:48.976 --> 00:12:50.238 about how they carve out the wood and 00:12:50.278 --> 00:12:50.518 stuff. 00:12:50.577 --> 00:12:53.759 So that was that's super interesting. 00:12:56.129 --> 00:12:57.929 Yeah, there's good memories everywhere. 00:12:58.009 --> 00:12:59.149 I do have a question for you. 00:12:59.210 --> 00:13:02.191 So I don't like traveling with my family 00:13:02.331 --> 00:13:04.591 at work things because I feel like one 00:13:04.611 --> 00:13:05.513 or two things happens. 00:13:05.852 --> 00:13:09.094 Either I ignore my family or I feel 00:13:09.134 --> 00:13:10.214 like I'm ignoring my job. 00:13:10.754 --> 00:13:12.115 So what are your thoughts on that? 00:13:14.854 --> 00:13:15.453 Yes. 00:13:16.634 --> 00:13:19.375 My thoughts are yes. 00:13:19.674 --> 00:13:20.336 It's rough. 00:13:21.035 --> 00:13:24.777 And that's a conversation that we have 00:13:24.917 --> 00:13:26.177 ongoing with my partner. 00:13:27.018 --> 00:13:27.258 Like... 00:13:28.490 --> 00:13:29.072 There's a bunch, 00:13:29.412 --> 00:13:32.553 there's various different layers, right? 00:13:32.573 --> 00:13:35.875 One of the levels is like the places 00:13:35.936 --> 00:13:38.999 that events are aren't always or 00:13:39.058 --> 00:13:41.379 necessarily places that we, 00:13:41.779 --> 00:13:42.961 either her and I, 00:13:43.301 --> 00:13:44.883 or we as a family would want to 00:13:44.942 --> 00:13:45.082 go. 00:13:46.484 --> 00:13:47.725 So, there's that thing. 00:13:47.804 --> 00:13:48.426 So, like, 00:13:48.686 --> 00:13:50.086 if it's not a place that's interesting, 00:13:50.388 --> 00:13:51.749 I mean, we had a lot of flexibility, 00:13:51.769 --> 00:13:55.011 you know, more years ago when, 00:13:55.331 --> 00:13:56.693 because we were homeschooling our kids. 00:13:56.714 --> 00:13:56.793 So, 00:13:56.813 --> 00:13:58.075 we could pretty much pick up and go 00:13:58.095 --> 00:13:58.455 wherever. 00:13:59.375 --> 00:14:01.837 Now, my daughter's in high school. 00:14:02.318 --> 00:14:03.419 My son's not in school, but, like, 00:14:03.539 --> 00:14:04.280 my daughter's in high school. 00:14:04.301 --> 00:14:05.621 And so, like, we have to, 00:14:05.642 --> 00:14:07.644 that would also be a conflicting factor. 00:14:10.227 --> 00:14:11.149 First of all, it's the place, 00:14:11.229 --> 00:14:12.309 and is the place interesting? 00:14:13.030 --> 00:14:15.153 And then secondly, yes, 00:14:15.173 --> 00:14:16.174 there's always the problem. 00:14:16.394 --> 00:14:17.416 Obviously now, 00:14:17.755 --> 00:14:19.798 and particularly since I've put on the 00:14:19.818 --> 00:14:20.940 developer advocate hat, 00:14:22.701 --> 00:14:26.145 where going to the event is much more 00:14:26.326 --> 00:14:29.048 a distinct responsibility of my job. 00:14:31.038 --> 00:14:35.841 then I feel more compelled to be present 00:14:35.941 --> 00:14:37.062 at all of the other things, 00:14:37.101 --> 00:14:39.062 like the after parties and the hangouts 00:14:39.102 --> 00:14:42.304 and whatever, because I'm on the clock. 00:14:42.544 --> 00:14:43.605 I'm here. 00:14:43.706 --> 00:14:44.806 I might just be hanging out, 00:14:45.086 --> 00:14:47.048 but I'm wearing my swag. 00:14:47.148 --> 00:14:48.749 I've got my Pantheon stuff on. 00:14:49.188 --> 00:14:50.970 i'm having conversations i'm looking for 00:14:51.029 --> 00:14:53.051 people probably to have a particular 00:14:53.091 --> 00:14:55.292 conversation with even if it's just to 00:14:55.331 --> 00:14:57.172 like make a connection but just you know 00:14:57.732 --> 00:14:59.874 to to be able to bring back to 00:15:00.033 --> 00:15:02.174 to work or you know just to have 00:15:02.335 --> 00:15:04.696 that sort of like good pantheon vibe uh 00:15:04.775 --> 00:15:08.537 at the event um and that's something that 00:15:08.856 --> 00:15:11.077 um when i did go to things with 00:15:11.359 --> 00:15:13.599 um with my family i was doing much 00:15:13.700 --> 00:15:16.100 less of because we'd want to do stuff 00:15:16.301 --> 00:15:16.561 you know 00:15:17.221 --> 00:15:19.022 like it's you know the conference is what 00:15:19.081 --> 00:15:21.104 five six seven hours or something and so 00:15:21.144 --> 00:15:22.304 like the rest of the time it's like 00:15:22.345 --> 00:15:24.525 okay we should do something together um 00:15:25.527 --> 00:15:27.788 there's like then you can do the sort 00:15:27.808 --> 00:15:29.289 of thing where like you you kind of 00:15:29.450 --> 00:15:31.630 offset it like you know we'll there's a 00:15:31.650 --> 00:15:33.893 couple days of the conference but then you 00:15:33.913 --> 00:15:36.615 know the weekend after or a couple days 00:15:36.634 --> 00:15:38.797 before whatever you can do stuff um and 00:15:38.836 --> 00:15:40.597 i've done that too but this is that's 00:15:40.878 --> 00:15:43.519 that's sort of a like a it's an 00:15:43.600 --> 00:15:45.480 ongoing conversation um 00:15:46.522 --> 00:15:46.741 And, like, 00:15:46.761 --> 00:15:48.403 there are places that I'd like to go. 00:15:48.464 --> 00:15:49.783 Like, I would have loved to, like, 00:15:49.844 --> 00:15:51.846 have hung out in Ottawa for a couple 00:15:51.885 --> 00:15:52.505 days and, like, 00:15:52.966 --> 00:15:54.748 done stuff with my partner. 00:15:55.368 --> 00:15:56.869 Because I wouldn't want to do it alone. 00:15:57.730 --> 00:15:59.110 But also, like, in the future, like, 00:15:59.750 --> 00:16:00.711 will I go back to Ottawa? 00:16:00.772 --> 00:16:01.032 I don't know. 00:16:01.072 --> 00:16:01.413 Maybe. 00:16:01.732 --> 00:16:02.072 Maybe. 00:16:02.153 --> 00:16:03.553 But it's probably not high on the bucket 00:16:03.594 --> 00:16:03.854 list. 00:16:03.913 --> 00:16:04.894 Like, there's other places. 00:16:05.836 --> 00:16:08.116 So then it's, like, you know, yeah, 00:16:08.136 --> 00:16:08.738 then it's just, like, 00:16:08.977 --> 00:16:11.480 going to a traveling on an airplane to 00:16:11.500 --> 00:16:12.139 go to a hotel. 00:16:12.620 --> 00:16:12.880 Yeah. 00:16:13.708 --> 00:16:17.613 But yeah, Nashville and St. 00:16:17.653 --> 00:16:19.975 Louis brought the fam. 00:16:21.256 --> 00:16:22.937 I have gone to, 00:16:23.339 --> 00:16:26.642 I don't think I brought anyone to Portland 00:16:26.701 --> 00:16:27.943 for a WordCamp, 00:16:29.006 --> 00:16:30.687 but we've been to Portland. 00:16:31.388 --> 00:16:31.548 Um, 00:16:31.567 --> 00:16:34.229 we all went to San Diego for WordCamp 00:16:34.389 --> 00:16:36.809 US when it was in San Diego, um, 00:16:37.110 --> 00:16:39.691 because that was a cheaper for us. 00:16:40.030 --> 00:16:42.052 Um, and also like San Diego is awesome. 00:16:42.432 --> 00:16:43.792 And that's sort of the other thing too, 00:16:43.851 --> 00:16:46.513 is like how much stuff is there where, 00:16:47.293 --> 00:16:47.432 yes, 00:16:47.452 --> 00:16:50.193 I'm going to be gone doing work things. 00:16:50.695 --> 00:16:53.436 So how many things are there available for 00:16:53.475 --> 00:16:55.755 everyone else to go and have a good 00:16:55.796 --> 00:16:57.037 time? 00:16:57.116 --> 00:16:57.437 Yeah. 00:16:57.880 --> 00:16:59.302 WordCamp US San Diego. 00:16:59.462 --> 00:17:00.445 I loved that year. 00:17:00.625 --> 00:17:00.924 It gets, 00:17:01.065 --> 00:17:03.629 it gets knocked down a lot because it 00:17:03.649 --> 00:17:04.190 was small. 00:17:04.429 --> 00:17:06.653 It was all like tickets sold out within 00:17:07.114 --> 00:17:08.215 seconds or whatever it was. 00:17:09.076 --> 00:17:10.498 Yeah. 00:17:10.538 --> 00:17:12.500 It was hundreds of people, not thousands, 00:17:12.541 --> 00:17:14.504 you know, it was, but, 00:17:15.058 --> 00:17:17.480 The venue was at that really cool 00:17:18.822 --> 00:17:20.442 mid-century modern hotel, 00:17:22.045 --> 00:17:25.607 which definitely had its flaws as far as 00:17:25.688 --> 00:17:26.788 modern hotel amenities. 00:17:26.868 --> 00:17:28.670 But being somebody who likes tiki culture, 00:17:29.931 --> 00:17:31.932 that is the same hotel that they hold 00:17:31.972 --> 00:17:33.854 the annual Tiki Oasis convention in. 00:17:33.894 --> 00:17:34.875 So I was in love with it. 00:17:34.974 --> 00:17:36.155 I was super happy with it. 00:17:36.175 --> 00:17:37.257 I did not know that was a thing. 00:17:38.101 --> 00:17:38.901 Um, yeah. 00:17:38.921 --> 00:17:40.342 Uh, so I, uh, 00:17:41.082 --> 00:17:44.163 which is why I stayed there and didn't 00:17:44.222 --> 00:17:45.323 try to stay at a Marriott. 00:17:45.343 --> 00:17:47.643 Like I always try to do simply because 00:17:47.903 --> 00:17:51.003 I wanted to be at that hotel and 00:17:51.624 --> 00:17:51.943 I don't know, 00:17:51.963 --> 00:17:53.325 it was one of my best word camps. 00:17:53.404 --> 00:17:55.224 I feel from a, from a work perspective, 00:17:55.724 --> 00:17:57.465 the people that came were super, 00:17:57.846 --> 00:18:00.365 were like there to have conversations. 00:18:00.425 --> 00:18:02.467 It was a lot less, uh, 00:18:02.487 --> 00:18:04.646 people that might've founded or decided to 00:18:04.707 --> 00:18:06.528 come like, you know, uh, 00:18:07.048 --> 00:18:07.949 The side effect of it, 00:18:08.028 --> 00:18:09.028 I feel like there was a lot less 00:18:09.169 --> 00:18:09.630 users, 00:18:09.730 --> 00:18:13.051 but there was a lot more BD conversations 00:18:13.071 --> 00:18:13.971 happening that year. 00:18:14.471 --> 00:18:15.573 And I think it was just a side 00:18:15.613 --> 00:18:17.713 effect of the people that knew to watch 00:18:17.773 --> 00:18:20.316 the drop with the people that are doing 00:18:20.675 --> 00:18:21.195 all the time. 00:18:21.576 --> 00:18:23.478 So but I liked that. 00:18:23.518 --> 00:18:23.637 Yeah, 00:18:23.698 --> 00:18:24.818 I thought it was a really good year 00:18:25.479 --> 00:18:26.900 and the venue was really nice. 00:18:26.980 --> 00:18:27.279 Yeah. 00:18:27.780 --> 00:18:28.342 Yeah, no, 00:18:28.541 --> 00:18:31.086 I have good memories of that event, 00:18:31.125 --> 00:18:33.970 but part of that is just because it 00:18:33.990 --> 00:18:34.951 was in San Diego, 00:18:35.111 --> 00:18:37.314 and San Diego is awesome. 00:18:37.494 --> 00:18:39.277 I find excuses to go to San Diego, 00:18:39.557 --> 00:18:41.339 like, on any day. 00:18:42.780 --> 00:18:43.101 Yeah. 00:18:43.181 --> 00:18:45.041 And I, I mean, honestly, like, um, 00:18:45.701 --> 00:18:49.262 WordCamp Long Beach, uh, I spoke at, um, 00:18:49.323 --> 00:18:51.344 this would have been twenty, um, 00:18:51.784 --> 00:18:53.625 seventeen, maybe, I think, 00:18:53.704 --> 00:18:54.505 maybe twenty-nineteen. 00:18:55.224 --> 00:18:56.605 Um, somewhere in there, in the, 00:18:56.746 --> 00:18:57.865 in the pre-COVID days. 00:18:58.346 --> 00:18:59.186 But, like, really, 00:18:59.247 --> 00:19:02.188 the only reason why I was even, like, 00:19:02.407 --> 00:19:03.347 the only reason why it was on my 00:19:03.387 --> 00:19:06.028 radar is because it was in Long Beach 00:19:06.209 --> 00:19:07.789 and, like, it could, we could, like, 00:19:07.910 --> 00:19:09.450 justify, like, 00:19:09.630 --> 00:19:11.590 just going to California and going to the 00:19:11.611 --> 00:19:11.790 beach. 00:19:12.423 --> 00:19:14.944 So that WordCamp and that year was the 00:19:14.964 --> 00:19:15.986 camp I turned vegan. 00:19:16.626 --> 00:19:19.990 I literally decided to be vegan. 00:19:20.490 --> 00:19:21.090 Cold turkey. 00:19:21.951 --> 00:19:23.093 Cold turkey. 00:19:23.833 --> 00:19:26.935 Well, cold tofu. 00:19:26.955 --> 00:19:27.777 That's even worse. 00:19:28.076 --> 00:19:30.038 But you went full stop. 00:19:30.058 --> 00:19:31.840 You just like, I'm vegan today. 00:19:32.896 --> 00:19:35.858 I did because I have a lot of 00:19:35.898 --> 00:19:36.359 allergies. 00:19:36.599 --> 00:19:37.621 Huge long allergy list. 00:19:38.520 --> 00:19:41.323 So I was basically only eating dairy and 00:19:42.865 --> 00:19:45.646 eggs and poultry because I was allergic to 00:19:45.707 --> 00:19:46.267 everything else. 00:19:47.788 --> 00:19:48.828 But I was still getting sick all the 00:19:48.848 --> 00:19:49.108 time. 00:19:49.328 --> 00:19:53.251 So I googled morning sickness and I ended 00:19:53.291 --> 00:19:54.333 up on PETA's website. 00:19:54.752 --> 00:19:55.093 Of course, 00:19:55.113 --> 00:19:56.515 they're talking a different thing. 00:19:56.595 --> 00:19:58.596 They were talking about when you're 00:19:58.635 --> 00:19:59.056 pregnant. 00:19:59.576 --> 00:19:59.797 But 00:20:00.391 --> 00:20:01.976 I was like, well, I'm in California, 00:20:02.217 --> 00:20:06.269 good as places any to try and. 00:20:06.672 --> 00:20:06.972 And yeah. 00:20:07.685 --> 00:20:09.047 Um, I was friends with, uh, 00:20:10.067 --> 00:20:11.567 I don't know, uh, Tommy Tallarico. 00:20:11.587 --> 00:20:13.429 Uh, he, uh, 00:20:13.750 --> 00:20:15.351 is the person who created video games 00:20:15.391 --> 00:20:17.491 live, the orchestra touring thing. 00:20:18.511 --> 00:20:19.133 He was vegan. 00:20:19.173 --> 00:20:21.013 And so he gave me some tips and 00:20:21.713 --> 00:20:23.414 yeah, the rest is a history. 00:20:23.654 --> 00:20:26.356 I've since done other testing with my 00:20:26.396 --> 00:20:29.878 doctor and I also have allergies to dairy 00:20:29.939 --> 00:20:32.259 and other, you know, as well. 00:20:32.319 --> 00:20:33.240 So basically, uh, 00:20:34.300 --> 00:20:35.662 most everything animal related. 00:20:35.721 --> 00:20:36.001 I'm alert. 00:20:36.082 --> 00:20:37.103 I'm actually allergic to, 00:20:37.163 --> 00:20:39.624 and I have tests to prove that, um, 00:20:39.943 --> 00:20:40.884 they're different things. 00:20:40.904 --> 00:20:42.385 Like I have the tick bite allergy for 00:20:42.405 --> 00:20:43.465 the red meat and then, okay. 00:20:43.506 --> 00:20:43.806 Yeah. 00:20:44.046 --> 00:20:45.227 Yeah. 00:20:45.487 --> 00:20:46.448 Um, but yeah, 00:20:46.508 --> 00:20:47.768 so I stopped getting sick all the time. 00:20:47.868 --> 00:20:48.568 So, but yeah, 00:20:48.608 --> 00:20:49.710 but that was the word camp where I 00:20:49.750 --> 00:20:52.310 tried to go vegan and, uh, uh, 00:20:54.372 --> 00:20:57.035 it it stuck so yeah that's uh i 00:20:57.075 --> 00:20:59.297 mean speaking of travel and going to 00:20:59.336 --> 00:21:03.182 events like that's that's often how how i 00:21:03.261 --> 00:21:06.105 rank uh the places that the events are 00:21:06.244 --> 00:21:08.126 is how easy it is to find vegan 00:21:08.146 --> 00:21:10.829 food um and i feel like you probably 00:21:10.869 --> 00:21:13.953 travel a lot more than me um what 00:21:14.394 --> 00:21:14.634 what 00:21:15.454 --> 00:21:17.135 I guess an interesting thing to think 00:21:17.155 --> 00:21:20.157 about are what places have you been where 00:21:20.479 --> 00:21:24.422 there was a surprising lack of 00:21:24.561 --> 00:21:26.663 availability of vegan food? 00:21:27.123 --> 00:21:29.965 Maybe surprising is not the correct word, 00:21:29.986 --> 00:21:30.685 but it might be. 00:21:31.246 --> 00:21:36.230 And what places were surprising in the 00:21:36.289 --> 00:21:38.932 availability of vegan food for you? 00:21:40.694 --> 00:21:43.576 Yeah, so first off, 00:21:43.737 --> 00:21:45.057 shout out to the Happy Cow app. 00:21:45.417 --> 00:21:46.718 If anyone for sure. 00:21:46.758 --> 00:21:46.978 Yep. 00:21:47.479 --> 00:21:49.299 If anyone needs to find vegan or vegan 00:21:49.440 --> 00:21:50.339 friendly options, 00:21:50.420 --> 00:21:51.881 like not even full vegan restaurants, 00:21:51.901 --> 00:21:53.402 like let's say you have, you know, 00:21:53.481 --> 00:21:54.942 a friend or something visiting wherever 00:21:54.961 --> 00:21:55.323 you are. 00:21:56.682 --> 00:21:58.744 it's amazing it saves so much time but 00:21:58.825 --> 00:22:02.307 anyway uh so as far as a place 00:22:02.347 --> 00:22:04.009 i was really surprised that had a lot 00:22:04.048 --> 00:22:08.071 of options i would say uh um when 00:22:08.132 --> 00:22:10.054 i was in bangalore india so i was 00:22:10.413 --> 00:22:11.855 surprised all the vegan options there 00:22:11.875 --> 00:22:14.717 which again shouldn't be surprising um 00:22:14.817 --> 00:22:16.459 thinking about it now but like 00:22:17.019 --> 00:22:19.122 at the time i wasn't thinking about that 00:22:19.221 --> 00:22:21.505 same with like island and like israel and 00:22:21.565 --> 00:22:25.028 things so like um like tel aviv had 00:22:25.088 --> 00:22:26.891 tons of options and i didn't even think 00:22:26.911 --> 00:22:29.413 about that but then looking back i'm like 00:22:29.453 --> 00:22:29.673 well 00:22:31.007 --> 00:22:33.148 it kind of makes sense because a lot 00:22:33.169 --> 00:22:34.088 of these places, 00:22:35.130 --> 00:22:37.092 vegan checks a lot of the boxes, right? 00:22:37.112 --> 00:22:38.732 So it can be halal, 00:22:38.813 --> 00:22:39.513 it can be kosher. 00:22:40.193 --> 00:22:40.594 Now, granted, 00:22:41.414 --> 00:22:42.836 there's certifications and different 00:22:42.875 --> 00:22:45.077 levels of that depending on what you 00:22:45.117 --> 00:22:45.518 follow, 00:22:45.617 --> 00:22:50.821 but it was way easier in Asia and 00:22:52.583 --> 00:22:55.224 the Middle East type area than I ever 00:22:55.244 --> 00:22:55.885 thought it would be. 00:22:56.145 --> 00:22:58.428 Where it's really hard is... 00:23:00.915 --> 00:23:05.078 like Eastern Europe is really hard as well 00:23:05.199 --> 00:23:09.423 as like coastal Europe like Barcelona and 00:23:09.462 --> 00:23:13.546 things because a lot of many things are 00:23:13.605 --> 00:23:16.208 marked vegetarian or vegan that have fish 00:23:16.248 --> 00:23:18.150 in them and things like that so 00:23:20.474 --> 00:23:23.196 and that i was really surprised about so 00:23:23.217 --> 00:23:24.557 i was at a conference once it was 00:23:24.577 --> 00:23:27.200 a jumla conference and i was in barcelona 00:23:28.119 --> 00:23:29.861 and there was nothing in the hotel where 00:23:29.881 --> 00:23:31.342 the conference was that i could eat not 00:23:31.362 --> 00:23:33.983 a single item um besides just like a 00:23:34.023 --> 00:23:37.306 roll so literally what i did is every 00:23:37.326 --> 00:23:37.527 day 00:23:38.406 --> 00:23:41.088 I ordered Domino's pizza because they had 00:23:41.108 --> 00:23:41.568 vegan cheese. 00:23:41.588 --> 00:23:42.609 By the way, 00:23:42.869 --> 00:23:45.432 how do these American companies in every 00:23:45.471 --> 00:23:47.192 other country have vegan options on the 00:23:47.333 --> 00:23:47.953 regular menu, 00:23:47.993 --> 00:23:49.134 but we don't get that in the States? 00:23:49.394 --> 00:23:50.234 I don't understand that. 00:23:50.434 --> 00:23:52.076 Yeah, right. 00:23:52.277 --> 00:23:53.877 So I would literally just order a Domino's 00:23:53.897 --> 00:23:58.181 pizza every single day of this week-long 00:23:58.221 --> 00:23:58.701 conference. 00:23:58.901 --> 00:24:01.163 People made fun of me because I was 00:24:01.182 --> 00:24:02.023 doing that, but there was... 00:24:02.963 --> 00:24:05.226 literally nothing else around and where 00:24:05.246 --> 00:24:07.468 the hotel was there was nothing walkable 00:24:07.528 --> 00:24:12.031 so I find that's why I try to 00:24:12.051 --> 00:24:13.532 stick with Marriott's a lot people make 00:24:13.573 --> 00:24:15.494 fun of me they're like you only want 00:24:15.555 --> 00:24:17.256 American chains when you travel to Europe 00:24:17.276 --> 00:24:19.877 in Asia and I'm like yeah two reasons 00:24:19.998 --> 00:24:20.679 one points and 00:24:21.727 --> 00:24:23.768 And two, I, 00:24:23.827 --> 00:24:25.587 I know there's going to be options at 00:24:25.607 --> 00:24:28.548 a full service Marriott or Sheridan or 00:24:28.568 --> 00:24:30.230 West. 00:24:30.329 --> 00:24:30.490 Right. 00:24:30.589 --> 00:24:32.210 I understand it's not the most exciting 00:24:32.570 --> 00:24:34.111 menu at the restaurants, but at least, 00:24:34.250 --> 00:24:35.310 you know, there's something. 00:24:35.330 --> 00:24:36.832 So what about you? 00:24:36.852 --> 00:24:38.972 What have you been surprised on? 00:24:39.292 --> 00:24:39.432 Like, 00:24:41.114 --> 00:24:43.076 I think when I think the first I 00:24:43.096 --> 00:24:46.219 think sort of the origin story of this 00:24:46.278 --> 00:24:51.304 question or thinking about this was when I 00:24:51.384 --> 00:24:53.727 went to WordCamp Denver, 00:24:54.587 --> 00:24:56.589 because I didn't necessarily expect that 00:24:56.670 --> 00:24:58.412 Denver would be a really good place for 00:24:58.451 --> 00:24:59.071 vegan food. 00:24:59.952 --> 00:25:01.835 But it had lots of stuff. 00:25:01.875 --> 00:25:02.576 And again, it's like, 00:25:03.345 --> 00:25:06.188 It's not super surprising, surprising, 00:25:07.929 --> 00:25:11.132 but, you know, because it's a hip, cool, 00:25:12.692 --> 00:25:14.555 free weed sort of place. 00:25:14.634 --> 00:25:15.355 Like, you know, 00:25:15.375 --> 00:25:18.538 there's a lot of hippies and the hippie 00:25:18.577 --> 00:25:20.240 and vegan overlap is pretty, 00:25:20.420 --> 00:25:22.201 the Venn diagram is pretty strong. 00:25:23.583 --> 00:25:23.883 Also, 00:25:23.923 --> 00:25:26.085 like I went to Sri Lanka and that 00:25:26.125 --> 00:25:27.445 wasn't hard at all. 00:25:29.048 --> 00:25:30.028 I did a retreat there. 00:25:30.429 --> 00:25:32.849 Hardest was definitely, 00:25:33.490 --> 00:25:37.554 and surprisingly hardest, Italy was hard. 00:25:38.194 --> 00:25:39.955 I did a human-made retreat there. 00:25:39.976 --> 00:25:41.396 I think my first human-made retreat. 00:25:42.038 --> 00:25:43.959 And it was the same sort of like 00:25:44.019 --> 00:25:46.060 European thing where like they don't 00:25:46.280 --> 00:25:49.542 really get the criteria and trying to 00:25:49.603 --> 00:25:51.285 explain it and like all the things. 00:25:51.325 --> 00:25:53.185 And also there's often a language 00:25:53.226 --> 00:25:54.886 difference and like things it's like, 00:25:56.023 --> 00:25:57.484 It was, it was rough. 00:25:57.924 --> 00:26:01.366 Um, Japan wasn't super easy. 00:26:01.406 --> 00:26:01.666 Like I, 00:26:01.787 --> 00:26:03.888 we went to Japan as a family last 00:26:03.929 --> 00:26:04.249 year. 00:26:04.568 --> 00:26:06.769 Um, we, we had like an Airbnb, 00:26:06.809 --> 00:26:07.830 so we ended up like cooking a lot 00:26:07.851 --> 00:26:09.571 of stuff, but like going out was like, 00:26:09.612 --> 00:26:10.813 we had to be very careful, 00:26:11.252 --> 00:26:12.453 like happy cow again. 00:26:12.473 --> 00:26:14.355 Uh, but also there's like, there's like, 00:26:14.775 --> 00:26:16.296 I think there was some, uh, 00:26:16.336 --> 00:26:18.517 Google maps thing that somebody made of 00:26:18.576 --> 00:26:20.278 like all the vegan places and like all 00:26:20.317 --> 00:26:21.919 of the, all of Japan. 00:26:21.959 --> 00:26:23.440 And that was very helpful that other 00:26:23.460 --> 00:26:24.421 people had done that homework. 00:26:26.126 --> 00:26:28.230 Hong Kong was similarly hard for me when 00:26:28.269 --> 00:26:29.050 I was in Hong Kong. 00:26:30.692 --> 00:26:31.493 Although, thankfully, 00:26:31.574 --> 00:26:33.915 I was staying at the Disneyland Resort. 00:26:35.137 --> 00:26:36.199 So it was, 00:26:36.700 --> 00:26:38.142 Disney's always been very good in all 00:26:38.182 --> 00:26:39.923 their parks, so there's options there. 00:26:40.984 --> 00:26:42.205 But I think it was funny, like, 00:26:42.326 --> 00:26:43.988 I was in Adventureland and, you know, 00:26:44.048 --> 00:26:45.490 they had a squid on a stick. 00:26:46.290 --> 00:26:47.830 And not because it was an adventure land, 00:26:47.871 --> 00:26:49.571 just because that was, you know, 00:26:49.592 --> 00:26:50.652 you're in Hong Kong. 00:26:50.692 --> 00:26:51.612 So that was interesting. 00:26:51.632 --> 00:26:53.553 So that wasn't too hard, 00:26:53.653 --> 00:26:55.432 but only at the sit down restaurants. 00:26:55.532 --> 00:26:57.713 It was almost impossible to do the counter 00:26:57.753 --> 00:26:58.814 service or fast food. 00:26:59.653 --> 00:26:59.993 Right. 00:27:01.095 --> 00:27:01.295 Right. 00:27:01.355 --> 00:27:03.134 And that's I feel like to like that 00:27:03.154 --> 00:27:04.915 was it was a little bit for me 00:27:04.955 --> 00:27:05.336 anyway. 00:27:05.355 --> 00:27:06.576 It was a little bit of a bummer 00:27:07.135 --> 00:27:09.237 because you hear and you read so much 00:27:09.257 --> 00:27:10.096 stuff about like 00:27:10.836 --> 00:27:13.698 um, street food, um, in, 00:27:13.857 --> 00:27:16.397 in these places and like going down 00:27:16.518 --> 00:27:18.598 through an area where there is street food 00:27:18.618 --> 00:27:20.578 everywhere and being like, can't eat that, 00:27:20.638 --> 00:27:21.740 can't eat that, can't eat that, 00:27:21.759 --> 00:27:22.319 can't eat that. 00:27:22.359 --> 00:27:23.680 Like when you finally land on something 00:27:23.700 --> 00:27:24.619 where you can eat, it's like, 00:27:24.660 --> 00:27:27.540 Oh my God. 00:27:28.080 --> 00:27:28.421 Yeah. 00:27:29.021 --> 00:27:30.501 And it's good to have people that like 00:27:30.521 --> 00:27:31.241 are local too. 00:27:31.301 --> 00:27:32.041 Like I had a, 00:27:32.442 --> 00:27:33.623 when I was at Codable and I was 00:27:33.702 --> 00:27:37.644 in, um, Thailand, he's like, Oh, just, 00:27:37.844 --> 00:27:38.463 he's like, just, 00:27:39.690 --> 00:27:40.853 When you get to any restaurant, 00:27:40.873 --> 00:27:42.056 say you want to prepare J, 00:27:42.236 --> 00:27:44.521 which is a type of preparation for. 00:27:47.704 --> 00:27:50.988 one of the common religions there. 00:27:52.548 --> 00:27:53.730 I don't remember exactly which one. 00:27:53.769 --> 00:27:55.912 But he's like, it's super common. 00:27:56.472 --> 00:27:58.314 If you say that, you'll be fine. 00:27:58.374 --> 00:27:59.875 Because he's like, 00:27:59.955 --> 00:28:01.656 that excludes all of these things, 00:28:02.017 --> 00:28:03.999 which basically makes it vegan for you. 00:28:04.759 --> 00:28:06.221 And I was at a lot of places 00:28:06.260 --> 00:28:08.343 that I had nothing on the menu. 00:28:08.363 --> 00:28:09.523 Then I'd be like, Jay. 00:28:09.544 --> 00:28:10.545 And they'd be like, oh, OK. 00:28:10.644 --> 00:28:11.665 And then they were bringing me a different 00:28:11.705 --> 00:28:11.905 menu. 00:28:12.226 --> 00:28:12.967 And it was interesting. 00:28:13.167 --> 00:28:13.548 Interesting. 00:28:13.568 --> 00:28:14.569 Yeah. 00:28:14.651 --> 00:28:16.594 Uh, even if I didn't speak the language, 00:28:16.614 --> 00:28:16.733 he, 00:28:16.894 --> 00:28:18.597 he told me how to pronounce the thing 00:28:18.617 --> 00:28:18.999 to say. 00:28:19.038 --> 00:28:19.499 And it was like, 00:28:19.720 --> 00:28:22.244 it was like a secret password to vegan 00:28:22.265 --> 00:28:22.846 in Thailand. 00:28:23.567 --> 00:28:24.970 Um, but, uh, 00:28:25.951 --> 00:28:28.593 Which funny story on that is we took 00:28:28.613 --> 00:28:30.473 a lot of our developers who are local 00:28:31.013 --> 00:28:33.674 to Trader Vic's Tiki restaurant. 00:28:34.515 --> 00:28:36.996 And a lot of the devs weren't, 00:28:37.296 --> 00:28:38.236 they don't drink alcohol. 00:28:38.415 --> 00:28:40.037 So I was like, I told my boss, 00:28:40.217 --> 00:28:41.376 oh yeah, it'll be fine. 00:28:41.696 --> 00:28:43.238 You know, it won't be that bad. 00:28:44.405 --> 00:28:47.068 Little did I know that they had the 00:28:47.108 --> 00:28:49.751 entire menu with a zero proof version. 00:28:50.271 --> 00:28:53.496 So it was the most expensive tiki night 00:28:53.536 --> 00:28:57.660 I've ever seen because nobody had alcohol 00:28:57.700 --> 00:28:59.261 charged tiki prices. 00:28:59.301 --> 00:29:00.903 So that was that was fun. 00:29:01.463 --> 00:29:02.365 But everyone had a good time, 00:29:02.384 --> 00:29:03.205 which is what's important. 00:29:04.859 --> 00:29:06.500 So a question I ask a lot of 00:29:06.519 --> 00:29:09.040 the guests that come on this show is 00:29:10.060 --> 00:29:14.082 what brought you, what got you into, 00:29:14.201 --> 00:29:15.922 interested in tech, 00:29:16.481 --> 00:29:17.682 whatever that tech may be. 00:29:18.623 --> 00:29:20.182 And I think for you, I'm interested in, 00:29:20.403 --> 00:29:21.482 well, we can talk about it later, 00:29:21.502 --> 00:29:24.324 but I'm also interested in like how you 00:29:24.364 --> 00:29:27.065 got to Joomla to begin with and what 00:29:27.525 --> 00:29:28.305 sorts of things 00:29:30.405 --> 00:29:32.846 like the sort of differences between 00:29:32.906 --> 00:29:34.846 WordPress and Joomla that you've seen, 00:29:34.866 --> 00:29:36.386 but, but we'll start, start with like, 00:29:36.527 --> 00:29:38.028 what, what, how did you, 00:29:38.167 --> 00:29:39.647 what is your sort of origin story for 00:29:39.667 --> 00:29:41.489 getting into technology broadly? 00:29:42.868 --> 00:29:43.368 Yeah. 00:29:43.429 --> 00:29:46.670 So my dad used to work for data 00:29:46.730 --> 00:29:49.009 general, which then got bought by GE. 00:29:49.931 --> 00:29:54.172 And we had the first Apple to compute 00:29:54.211 --> 00:29:56.352 home computer in the state of Minnesota. 00:29:56.692 --> 00:29:58.133 Oh. 00:29:58.212 --> 00:29:59.512 In the early, early in like, 00:30:00.506 --> 00:30:01.746 eighties or nineties or whatever it was. 00:30:02.047 --> 00:30:02.207 Um, 00:30:02.727 --> 00:30:04.647 so I've always been really big in the 00:30:04.728 --> 00:30:05.587 tech and he, 00:30:05.887 --> 00:30:07.107 my dad was like the president of the 00:30:07.147 --> 00:30:08.429 local rocketry club. 00:30:08.548 --> 00:30:11.750 And, um, he was an engineer on the, 00:30:12.289 --> 00:30:14.730 for NASA before working for data general 00:30:14.790 --> 00:30:16.932 for the Viking satellite project. 00:30:17.031 --> 00:30:20.252 And, um, so I, I get it. 00:30:20.333 --> 00:30:21.834 I've always been introduced to it a lot 00:30:21.874 --> 00:30:22.913 from my dad. 00:30:22.993 --> 00:30:24.615 So, uh, 00:30:26.569 --> 00:30:28.451 I was always trying to make websites and 00:30:28.491 --> 00:30:29.172 things like that. 00:30:30.212 --> 00:30:31.233 So like in middle school, 00:30:31.934 --> 00:30:35.999 I wrote my papers in HTML. 00:30:36.118 --> 00:30:37.881 And then when I was a freshman in 00:30:38.641 --> 00:30:39.301 high school, 00:30:40.303 --> 00:30:42.525 I took HTML one and I finished the 00:30:42.565 --> 00:30:46.628 entire course in three days. 00:30:46.729 --> 00:30:48.410 It was my first ever elective in high 00:30:48.450 --> 00:30:48.690 school. 00:30:48.871 --> 00:30:51.252 And then my teacher sent me to a 00:30:51.313 --> 00:30:52.193 college course 00:30:53.730 --> 00:30:56.030 got the school to pay for it. 00:30:57.411 --> 00:31:02.332 And then he had me help him write 00:31:03.011 --> 00:31:07.593 HTML two, the next HTML two or one, 00:31:07.893 --> 00:31:09.213 which they never even had yet. 00:31:10.294 --> 00:31:11.634 So I basically was a TA the rest 00:31:11.653 --> 00:31:12.034 of the course, 00:31:12.054 --> 00:31:13.575 because I literally completed the entire 00:31:13.615 --> 00:31:14.194 class in 00:31:15.372 --> 00:31:16.732 three days. 00:31:18.295 --> 00:31:19.255 And so I've had a lot of great 00:31:19.275 --> 00:31:19.756 teachers. 00:31:20.737 --> 00:31:23.038 And then I got into DECA, 00:31:24.299 --> 00:31:26.461 which is a business club group, 00:31:28.042 --> 00:31:29.684 which I have a funny story about that, 00:31:30.885 --> 00:31:31.826 which I'll tell you in a second. 00:31:31.946 --> 00:31:34.989 But they had website development and 00:31:35.009 --> 00:31:36.471 something called the seven up challenge. 00:31:36.510 --> 00:31:38.972 And so I would enter that and I 00:31:39.012 --> 00:31:42.596 won my senior year of college. 00:31:42.675 --> 00:31:43.396 high school, 00:31:43.977 --> 00:31:45.878 I won at the International Career 00:31:45.898 --> 00:31:47.039 Development Conference, 00:31:47.579 --> 00:31:49.340 first place for the seven up challenge 00:31:49.402 --> 00:31:52.003 banner ad design and website campaign 00:31:52.044 --> 00:31:52.483 design. 00:31:53.085 --> 00:31:54.605 I built that in flash. 00:31:56.287 --> 00:31:57.907 Super, super fancy. 00:31:58.509 --> 00:32:01.892 And the deca still exists in college, 00:32:02.251 --> 00:32:03.432 it was called collegiate deca. 00:32:05.114 --> 00:32:07.936 I ended up winning first place for website 00:32:08.416 --> 00:32:09.317 development there. 00:32:10.359 --> 00:32:18.482 I built that in PHP Nuke, I think. 00:32:18.522 --> 00:32:22.105 Funny story, Jesse from Automatic, 00:32:23.986 --> 00:32:25.846 he was also competing that same year, 00:32:26.326 --> 00:32:28.988 and I beat him. 00:32:29.008 --> 00:32:29.708 Just saying. 00:32:29.807 --> 00:32:30.028 I mean, 00:32:30.488 --> 00:32:32.368 you can argue that he ended up way 00:32:32.388 --> 00:32:33.509 more successful than I did, 00:32:33.588 --> 00:32:34.849 but I beat him. 00:32:35.826 --> 00:32:37.508 at uh that year so and we didn't 00:32:37.548 --> 00:32:39.068 figure this out till like two years ago 00:32:39.088 --> 00:32:40.509 when he's like i've only been at 00:32:40.530 --> 00:32:42.011 disneyland once it was have you heard of 00:32:42.031 --> 00:32:44.273 something called deca i'm like two 00:32:44.314 --> 00:32:45.414 thousand five career developed 00:32:45.494 --> 00:32:46.415 international career development 00:32:46.455 --> 00:32:49.157 conference collegiate he's like yeah like 00:32:49.699 --> 00:32:51.619 and then he's like i've never anyway long 00:32:51.660 --> 00:32:56.384 story short so uh and then from there 00:32:56.644 --> 00:32:58.926 uh i i was an intern 00:33:00.034 --> 00:33:01.714 I went to college for website development, 00:33:01.734 --> 00:33:02.675 but I knew a lot of the stuff 00:33:02.715 --> 00:33:04.596 already and just super into it. 00:33:06.157 --> 00:33:10.820 How I found Joomla was SiteGround was my 00:33:10.881 --> 00:33:11.882 first host. 00:33:11.942 --> 00:33:16.523 So if you don't count like AngelFire and 00:33:16.564 --> 00:33:18.925 some of those other like shared services, 00:33:19.266 --> 00:33:19.405 right? 00:33:19.987 --> 00:33:22.428 So I was like a customer of SiteGround 00:33:22.528 --> 00:33:24.670 back when they only had one product, 00:33:24.990 --> 00:33:26.451 you know, it was just hosting. 00:33:28.252 --> 00:33:31.557 And they had cPanel with Fantastico for 00:33:31.576 --> 00:33:33.400 the auto installer because it didn't 00:33:33.440 --> 00:33:33.819 exist. 00:33:34.641 --> 00:33:36.784 And I was just installing CMS is playing 00:33:36.804 --> 00:33:37.305 around with it. 00:33:37.365 --> 00:33:38.767 And then I found on Mambo and fell 00:33:38.787 --> 00:33:39.166 in love. 00:33:39.627 --> 00:33:42.852 And then I noticed Mambo wasn't getting a 00:33:42.892 --> 00:33:43.172 lot of 00:33:45.441 --> 00:33:49.383 development after a while uh and then i 00:33:49.763 --> 00:33:51.003 started clicking around again and found 00:33:51.044 --> 00:33:52.444 joomla i'm like this is a lot like 00:33:52.484 --> 00:33:54.086 mambo i didn't know it was a fork 00:33:54.105 --> 00:33:56.367 at the time um because i wasn't in 00:33:56.387 --> 00:33:58.249 the community and then i just kept 00:33:59.650 --> 00:34:03.553 building websites for small businesses and 00:34:03.593 --> 00:34:07.836 then started freelancing and just kept 00:34:07.875 --> 00:34:08.376 doing that. 00:34:08.416 --> 00:34:10.218 And I self-taught myself all the Joomla 00:34:11.538 --> 00:34:16.782 and then PHP and stuff and then started 00:34:17.002 --> 00:34:18.263 using it in my job. 00:34:19.845 --> 00:34:21.287 And then that's how I ended up in 00:34:21.307 --> 00:34:22.086 the agency life. 00:34:22.146 --> 00:34:22.426 And then 00:34:23.752 --> 00:34:24.733 The more I got into Joomla, 00:34:24.773 --> 00:34:26.114 the more I went to the conferences and 00:34:26.155 --> 00:34:28.958 met people who helped me volunteer. 00:34:29.257 --> 00:34:31.159 Because I still think the biggest, 00:34:31.500 --> 00:34:33.240 hardest part of all these projects is 00:34:34.001 --> 00:34:34.603 contributing. 00:34:35.302 --> 00:34:36.704 We all say it's easy to contribute. 00:34:36.784 --> 00:34:37.744 Like, oh, you need to contribute. 00:34:37.764 --> 00:34:38.445 You need to contribute. 00:34:38.525 --> 00:34:39.367 Go to Contributor Day. 00:34:39.887 --> 00:34:40.547 It's really, 00:34:40.568 --> 00:34:42.869 really hard for somebody brand new to our 00:34:42.909 --> 00:34:45.692 community to contribute. 00:34:46.152 --> 00:34:47.614 Like, for me, for Joomla, 00:34:48.253 --> 00:34:50.056 I sent email and email and email, 00:34:50.175 --> 00:34:50.856 filled out forms, 00:34:50.916 --> 00:34:52.036 and no one would get back to me. 00:34:52.878 --> 00:34:54.438 It wasn't until I went to a Joomla 00:34:54.458 --> 00:34:56.559 conference and said the team leader and 00:34:56.579 --> 00:34:56.739 said, 00:34:56.818 --> 00:34:58.840 I want to join your team that anything 00:34:58.880 --> 00:34:59.280 happened. 00:34:59.920 --> 00:35:01.081 And it's not a knock. 00:35:01.141 --> 00:35:02.721 It's just everyone's volunteering. 00:35:02.780 --> 00:35:06.523 So it's just the onboarding process of any 00:35:06.583 --> 00:35:06.862 of this. 00:35:06.922 --> 00:35:07.822 Even at WordCamps, 00:35:07.902 --> 00:35:09.824 it's not easy for someone just to show 00:35:09.923 --> 00:35:12.385 up and contribute because it's still 00:35:12.425 --> 00:35:12.764 clicky. 00:35:13.244 --> 00:35:15.766 yeah like uh you have to really push 00:35:15.806 --> 00:35:18.047 hard and i feel like that's a huge 00:35:18.088 --> 00:35:20.670 opportunity that nobody's cracked the nut 00:35:20.730 --> 00:35:22.030 on yet i feel like there needs to 00:35:22.050 --> 00:35:25.432 be an onboarding path for people that want 00:35:25.452 --> 00:35:28.333 to volunteer uh like oh what are you 00:35:28.373 --> 00:35:29.675 interested in what do you want to do 00:35:29.835 --> 00:35:31.775 oh let me introduce you to so and 00:35:31.795 --> 00:35:35.018 so and whatever um you know just throwing 00:35:35.059 --> 00:35:36.719 a big doc and saying here's how to 00:35:36.760 --> 00:35:38.481 prep for contributor day pick your team 00:35:38.820 --> 00:35:42.222 good luck it's it's intimidating uh 00:35:43.635 --> 00:35:45.056 Anyway, so that's how I got into tech. 00:35:45.076 --> 00:35:46.077 That's a very long answer. 00:35:48.117 --> 00:35:49.378 On the contributing topic, 00:35:51.460 --> 00:35:53.362 so I went to DrupalCon for the first 00:35:53.402 --> 00:35:54.322 time this last year. 00:35:55.143 --> 00:35:56.443 I stayed for Contributor Day. 00:35:57.083 --> 00:35:58.885 Contributor Day at DrupalCon is the last 00:35:58.925 --> 00:35:59.266 day. 00:35:59.746 --> 00:36:01.407 At WordCamps, it's often the first day, 00:36:01.467 --> 00:36:03.027 although it's kind of been either way. 00:36:05.489 --> 00:36:05.769 And... 00:36:07.684 --> 00:36:09.865 DrupalCon sort of starts off, 00:36:10.706 --> 00:36:11.686 Contributor Day starts off, 00:36:11.726 --> 00:36:14.688 like you kind of figure out where, what, 00:36:14.809 --> 00:36:15.570 if you're a developer, 00:36:15.590 --> 00:36:16.550 you go with the developers, 00:36:16.590 --> 00:36:17.331 if you're marketing, 00:36:17.411 --> 00:36:19.192 you go with like marketers, and if you're, 00:36:19.291 --> 00:36:19.972 you know, other things, 00:36:20.032 --> 00:36:21.193 I don't know where you go. 00:36:21.893 --> 00:36:23.074 But they kind of divide people up a 00:36:23.114 --> 00:36:23.514 little bit. 00:36:24.355 --> 00:36:27.157 And then at least for the developer track, 00:36:28.376 --> 00:36:30.679 you, for first time contributors, 00:36:30.858 --> 00:36:32.800 you are paired with a mentor. 00:36:33.746 --> 00:36:38.248 Um, so every new contributor has somebody, 00:36:38.849 --> 00:36:40.829 one person who has at least gone through 00:36:40.869 --> 00:36:42.190 it and probably has gone through it a 00:36:42.250 --> 00:36:43.670 couple of times, um, 00:36:44.090 --> 00:36:46.532 sitting with you and like, this is, 00:36:46.952 --> 00:36:48.632 we're going to look for an easy ticket 00:36:48.672 --> 00:36:49.994 for you to work on. 00:36:50.414 --> 00:36:52.074 We're going to like read up on what's 00:36:52.135 --> 00:36:52.554 needed. 00:36:52.574 --> 00:36:53.996 We're going to find the line of code 00:36:54.016 --> 00:36:54.556 or whatever. 00:36:55.155 --> 00:36:55.295 Uh, 00:36:55.635 --> 00:36:57.938 and then you make your first merge request 00:36:58.237 --> 00:36:58.978 and, um, 00:36:59.197 --> 00:36:59.438 Um, 00:36:59.458 --> 00:37:00.539 walks you through the whole sort of 00:37:00.579 --> 00:37:02.478 process and the mentor is also, 00:37:02.539 --> 00:37:02.878 there's like a, 00:37:03.119 --> 00:37:04.539 there's like mentor leads and all the 00:37:04.579 --> 00:37:05.239 tables or whatever. 00:37:05.260 --> 00:37:06.199 So like, you know, 00:37:06.260 --> 00:37:08.221 like when they have questions, they go, 00:37:08.460 --> 00:37:08.981 so like there's a, 00:37:09.021 --> 00:37:09.922 there's a whole process. 00:37:09.961 --> 00:37:12.202 And I think that like that level of 00:37:12.362 --> 00:37:15.103 one-on-one, uh, interaction, like, 00:37:15.282 --> 00:37:17.483 like mentorship is really, uh, 00:37:17.503 --> 00:37:18.304 really valuable. 00:37:18.644 --> 00:37:18.764 Um, 00:37:18.824 --> 00:37:21.025 it's also something that gets tracked on 00:37:21.065 --> 00:37:21.846 drupal.org. 00:37:21.885 --> 00:37:24.706 So like you, like my drupal.org, uh, 00:37:24.766 --> 00:37:27.748 profile now says who my mentor was at 00:37:27.807 --> 00:37:28.708 DrupalCon Atlanta. 00:37:29.201 --> 00:37:32.601 And his Drupal.org profile will show that 00:37:32.661 --> 00:37:35.443 he was a mentor and maybe the event, 00:37:35.523 --> 00:37:35.864 I don't know. 00:37:36.764 --> 00:37:37.844 And then, yeah, like you, 00:37:37.943 --> 00:37:38.744 you do your thing. 00:37:38.764 --> 00:37:40.625 And then like a lot of the stuff 00:37:40.824 --> 00:37:42.045 that I feel like 00:37:43.532 --> 00:37:46.313 in WordPress is, is standardized now, 00:37:46.393 --> 00:37:48.773 but like maybe at one point in time 00:37:48.813 --> 00:37:49.114 was, 00:37:49.233 --> 00:37:51.896 was more like ad hoc or like at 00:37:51.916 --> 00:37:54.916 the, uh, like for props and things, uh, 00:37:54.936 --> 00:37:56.336 like all that stuff is, uh, 00:37:56.538 --> 00:37:59.079 is sort of like built into like how 00:37:59.119 --> 00:38:01.300 they've integrated with like GitLab and 00:38:01.340 --> 00:38:01.980 things like that. 00:38:02.019 --> 00:38:02.380 Like it's, 00:38:02.871 --> 00:38:05.333 It's, it's, it's actually a pretty good, 00:38:05.373 --> 00:38:08.293 like it's far, it feels far less like, 00:38:08.313 --> 00:38:09.273 I don't know, 00:38:09.313 --> 00:38:11.434 chaotic and you're kind of left to your 00:38:11.454 --> 00:38:12.873 own devices then, uh, 00:38:13.193 --> 00:38:15.315 then contributor days that I've been to at 00:38:15.335 --> 00:38:15.835 WordCamps. 00:38:17.034 --> 00:38:17.474 Yeah. 00:38:17.574 --> 00:38:19.655 So I think that's great. 00:38:19.715 --> 00:38:20.275 Cause I agree. 00:38:20.315 --> 00:38:21.396 Like when I was at the Doomload World 00:38:21.436 --> 00:38:24.197 Conference and I met, um, uh, 00:38:25.027 --> 00:38:27.208 Tessa Mero, who was in charge, 00:38:27.329 --> 00:38:28.849 her and her partner at the time, 00:38:29.849 --> 00:38:31.110 were in charge of the Gmail extension 00:38:31.130 --> 00:38:32.590 directory because I thought that's what I 00:38:32.610 --> 00:38:34.351 wanted to do because I liked, you know, 00:38:35.592 --> 00:38:36.333 learn very quickly. 00:38:36.353 --> 00:38:37.373 That was not the place for me. 00:38:38.313 --> 00:38:39.634 I was much better at the asking for 00:38:39.673 --> 00:38:40.855 money part. 00:38:42.014 --> 00:38:44.556 looking at code quality and standards and 00:38:44.615 --> 00:38:46.277 for plugin submissions, sorry, 00:38:46.336 --> 00:38:47.476 extension submissions. 00:38:48.818 --> 00:38:50.157 But she sat down and showed me the 00:38:50.177 --> 00:38:53.139 whole process and it was way less 00:38:53.820 --> 00:38:54.559 intimidating. 00:38:56.121 --> 00:38:57.842 That mentor idea is great. 00:38:57.862 --> 00:39:00.081 I know that they started kind of like 00:39:00.101 --> 00:39:01.963 a WordCamp mentorship thing at WordCamp 00:39:02.182 --> 00:39:03.384 U.S., WordCamp U.S. 00:39:04.563 --> 00:39:06.284 um so there's definitely a lot of good 00:39:06.364 --> 00:39:09.166 ideas that's going around at like joomla 00:39:09.186 --> 00:39:10.985 does this thing called pizza bugs and fun 00:39:11.907 --> 00:39:14.547 uh and that is like basically bug 00:39:14.568 --> 00:39:18.469 squashing and uh you can do it remotely 00:39:18.509 --> 00:39:19.969 or in person and then you get some 00:39:19.989 --> 00:39:21.929 cash to you know buy pizza or whatever 00:39:22.369 --> 00:39:24.550 that's very easy to join because somebody 00:39:24.570 --> 00:39:27.331 who's new can just do the testing part 00:39:27.391 --> 00:39:29.092 or you know whatever uh 00:39:29.713 --> 00:39:31.875 It's very set process wise. 00:39:32.094 --> 00:39:34.016 I feel like there needs to be good 00:39:34.155 --> 00:39:35.958 on ramps for people who are interested 00:39:36.018 --> 00:39:39.820 because I feel like it's still the onus 00:39:39.860 --> 00:39:42.182 is still on the volunteer to really push. 00:39:42.822 --> 00:39:45.485 And I feel like that's too bad because 00:39:45.644 --> 00:39:46.786 I feel like a lot of people would 00:39:46.806 --> 00:39:48.708 give a couple hours a week if there 00:39:48.748 --> 00:39:50.208 was just an easier on ramp. 00:39:51.177 --> 00:39:52.737 for lack of a better analogy, 00:39:52.978 --> 00:39:54.018 I feel like when you show up to 00:39:54.039 --> 00:39:54.820 a contributor day, 00:39:55.000 --> 00:39:56.521 it should feel like you're walking into a 00:39:56.621 --> 00:39:58.702 church for the first time where everyone 00:39:58.742 --> 00:40:02.164 is overly happy to see you do whatever 00:40:02.204 --> 00:40:03.346 they can to make sure you have a 00:40:03.405 --> 00:40:04.447 great experience. 00:40:04.686 --> 00:40:08.730 Uh, uh, I don't, you know, I'm not, 00:40:09.050 --> 00:40:09.971 not to knock anything, 00:40:10.030 --> 00:40:10.710 but you know what I mean? 00:40:10.771 --> 00:40:13.233 Like there's like that, that, 00:40:13.273 --> 00:40:15.114 that culturally, you know, 00:40:15.394 --> 00:40:17.436 over welcoming culture. 00:40:17.896 --> 00:40:18.356 Yeah. 00:40:18.637 --> 00:40:19.438 And, uh, 00:40:20.838 --> 00:40:22.420 I think we can all kind of learn 00:40:22.460 --> 00:40:23.981 from each other and make best practices. 00:40:24.021 --> 00:40:25.521 But that Drupal process you're talking 00:40:25.541 --> 00:40:26.483 about sounds awesome. 00:40:26.563 --> 00:40:29.846 And at the end of the day, 00:40:30.425 --> 00:40:31.065 I think a lot more, 00:40:31.367 --> 00:40:32.947 there's a lot of ways people can 00:40:32.987 --> 00:40:33.487 contribute. 00:40:33.547 --> 00:40:34.469 It's not just code. 00:40:37.090 --> 00:40:39.652 And that's what I always try to tell 00:40:39.693 --> 00:40:42.514 people is you can contribute to projects 00:40:42.554 --> 00:40:43.255 in lots of ways. 00:40:43.315 --> 00:40:44.735 It's not just sitting there and working on 00:40:44.775 --> 00:40:47.157 code or documentation. 00:40:47.237 --> 00:40:48.798 There's lots of ways you can use your 00:40:48.838 --> 00:40:49.260 skills in. 00:40:50.019 --> 00:40:50.860 whatever that may be. 00:40:51.320 --> 00:40:52.101 Yeah, for sure. 00:40:53.663 --> 00:40:54.143 So yeah, 00:40:54.163 --> 00:40:56.784 getting back to the last part of the 00:40:56.824 --> 00:40:58.445 very long question that was actually three 00:40:58.485 --> 00:40:58.967 questions. 00:41:00.427 --> 00:41:02.708 Having come from Joomla, 00:41:03.869 --> 00:41:08.032 I'm interested in what parts of Joomla you 00:41:08.552 --> 00:41:09.594 really appreciated 00:41:11.014 --> 00:41:12.635 Well, Joomla, Mambo, whatever. 00:41:13.896 --> 00:41:17.519 And what sort of you see as kind 00:41:17.559 --> 00:41:20.702 of fundamental differences in either the 00:41:20.742 --> 00:41:24.324 approach or things that are just different 00:41:24.364 --> 00:41:27.447 between Joomla and WordPress. 00:41:28.168 --> 00:41:29.548 I was on a panel recently. 00:41:30.009 --> 00:41:30.708 at Badcamp, 00:41:31.469 --> 00:41:33.030 where we had somebody who had experience 00:41:33.050 --> 00:41:35.851 with Joomla and me as the WordPress guy. 00:41:36.271 --> 00:41:39.652 And then there's a DrupalCon or camp. 00:41:39.672 --> 00:41:41.271 So obviously everyone else is 00:41:41.411 --> 00:41:42.512 understanding things from a Drupal 00:41:42.552 --> 00:41:42.992 context. 00:41:43.012 --> 00:41:44.132 And so it was interesting having the 00:41:44.193 --> 00:41:45.233 conversation about like, 00:41:45.632 --> 00:41:48.773 how do each CMS kind of approach things 00:41:48.813 --> 00:41:49.233 differently? 00:41:49.253 --> 00:41:51.614 And I'm interested in sort of like your 00:41:51.655 --> 00:41:53.675 take from particularly from being so 00:41:53.755 --> 00:41:54.976 embedded in Joomla. 00:41:56.518 --> 00:41:56.878 Yeah, 00:41:56.938 --> 00:41:58.179 so I used to be on the board 00:41:58.778 --> 00:42:00.840 of Joomla, well, technically, 00:42:00.860 --> 00:42:01.800 of Open Source Matters, 00:42:01.840 --> 00:42:03.360 which is the legal entity. 00:42:03.420 --> 00:42:04.019 But anyway, 00:42:04.099 --> 00:42:06.221 we don't need to get into governance. 00:42:07.820 --> 00:42:09.681 I think from a code perspective, 00:42:09.760 --> 00:42:12.101 what Joomla has that's really interesting 00:42:12.282 --> 00:42:21.724 is they are not afraid to be beyond 00:42:21.784 --> 00:42:22.063 modern. 00:42:23.936 --> 00:42:25.797 be on modern code bases and modern 00:42:25.836 --> 00:42:26.398 frameworks. 00:42:28.018 --> 00:42:29.920 That's also could be, you could argue, 00:42:29.980 --> 00:42:32.940 be the detriment to the project because, 00:42:33.442 --> 00:42:33.702 you know, 00:42:33.782 --> 00:42:36.262 breaking BC has kind of become a meme 00:42:36.603 --> 00:42:37.103 in Gen one. 00:42:37.344 --> 00:42:38.045 It's gotten better. 00:42:39.072 --> 00:42:40.213 especially more recently. 00:42:40.753 --> 00:42:42.554 It's very easy to, well, 00:42:43.074 --> 00:42:44.635 it's much less painful than it used to 00:42:44.655 --> 00:42:45.717 be, from what I understand. 00:42:45.797 --> 00:42:46.257 Obviously, 00:42:47.217 --> 00:42:48.659 I'm now using it more as a hobby 00:42:48.760 --> 00:42:50.360 instead of as a daily thing. 00:42:52.483 --> 00:42:53.923 So I think that's super interesting. 00:42:54.463 --> 00:42:56.626 Joomla was the first ever open source CMS 00:42:56.666 --> 00:42:57.947 to mandate PHP seven. 00:42:59.675 --> 00:43:01.836 Um, and host hated us, 00:43:02.938 --> 00:43:04.498 like tons of hosts were mad, 00:43:04.998 --> 00:43:06.278 hundreds of hosts were upset. 00:43:07.159 --> 00:43:07.300 Um, 00:43:07.340 --> 00:43:09.920 but the project made that decision and 00:43:10.420 --> 00:43:12.983 because of that, it may, it, 00:43:13.063 --> 00:43:15.244 it pulled up the standard for everyone 00:43:15.304 --> 00:43:15.643 else. 00:43:16.543 --> 00:43:19.166 Um, and so it all, we all, 00:43:19.306 --> 00:43:20.246 all the projects, 00:43:20.286 --> 00:43:22.047 especially in the PHP open source world. 00:43:22.626 --> 00:43:23.188 So, you know, 00:43:23.447 --> 00:43:25.648 affect each other in different ways in 00:43:25.688 --> 00:43:27.028 ways that we might not even think about. 00:43:27.829 --> 00:43:28.050 Um, 00:43:29.014 --> 00:43:30.135 Uh, so I, 00:43:30.155 --> 00:43:31.255 I really liked that about it. 00:43:31.635 --> 00:43:31.856 Um, 00:43:33.416 --> 00:43:36.039 what I like about Joomla is that the 00:43:36.079 --> 00:43:37.519 governance is cause I was there when it 00:43:37.539 --> 00:43:38.360 was reorganized. 00:43:38.880 --> 00:43:40.740 Um, the governance is very public. 00:43:41.702 --> 00:43:42.141 Um, 00:43:42.181 --> 00:43:43.463 you can see how the government is set 00:43:43.543 --> 00:43:45.143 up and it's all laid out. 00:43:45.423 --> 00:43:47.125 And, uh, 00:43:47.244 --> 00:43:48.846 as far as how voting goes and things 00:43:48.865 --> 00:43:49.266 like that, 00:43:49.306 --> 00:43:52.788 similar to Drupal where you can join and 00:43:53.407 --> 00:43:55.128 get, you know, vote and things like that. 00:43:55.168 --> 00:43:57.610 So, uh, I appreciated that, 00:43:57.670 --> 00:43:58.670 but on the flip side, 00:43:59.740 --> 00:44:00.400 On the reorg, 00:44:00.521 --> 00:44:03.242 Joomla became a very flat organization and 00:44:04.583 --> 00:44:06.242 I've seen lots of stuff stall. 00:44:06.402 --> 00:44:11.103 So where other projects like Drupal and 00:44:11.144 --> 00:44:13.724 WordPress have, I would say, 00:44:13.864 --> 00:44:16.465 more clear direction because they have a 00:44:16.525 --> 00:44:20.266 lead and that has significant benefits 00:44:20.306 --> 00:44:20.487 too. 00:44:25.255 --> 00:44:26.456 I'm just a, you know, 00:44:26.777 --> 00:44:29.038 my whole philosophy is figuring out what 00:44:29.057 --> 00:44:31.219 makes sense for open source in general, 00:44:31.280 --> 00:44:34.942 because I think the battle is not with 00:44:35.481 --> 00:44:36.023 each other. 00:44:36.822 --> 00:44:38.864 It's with closed source systems that 00:44:39.684 --> 00:44:42.485 um can hijack your data or can you 00:44:42.525 --> 00:44:44.606 know handcuff you and make it very 00:44:44.646 --> 00:44:46.226 expensive very quickly and shopify is a 00:44:46.286 --> 00:44:48.728 perfect example of that shopify is a great 00:44:48.807 --> 00:44:51.228 user experience i'm not it's an amazing 00:44:51.309 --> 00:44:53.349 user experience for a store owner and it's 00:44:53.469 --> 00:44:56.130 very easy to enter but then when you 00:44:56.170 --> 00:44:58.570 have success it gets very expensive very 00:44:58.610 --> 00:45:02.713 quickly um and that is where i feel 00:45:02.753 --> 00:45:03.733 like um 00:45:04.771 --> 00:45:05.815 we need to focus on. 00:45:06.295 --> 00:45:07.659 And there's been initiatives like this. 00:45:12.519 --> 00:45:14.280 like there's All Things Open and other 00:45:15.081 --> 00:45:16.882 like open source conferences where people 00:45:16.902 --> 00:45:18.603 try to come together and share best 00:45:18.643 --> 00:45:19.704 practices and things. 00:45:19.784 --> 00:45:22.244 And there's been nonprofits, 00:45:22.264 --> 00:45:22.844 like in Germany, 00:45:22.864 --> 00:45:24.326 there was a nonprofit called the CMS 00:45:24.346 --> 00:45:25.806 Garden, which had, I think, 00:45:25.867 --> 00:45:28.088 twelve open source projects part of it. 00:45:29.369 --> 00:45:31.070 So there's been initiatives and things. 00:45:31.170 --> 00:45:34.190 But I feel like in every open source 00:45:34.291 --> 00:45:34.831 project, 00:45:34.851 --> 00:45:37.132 there's so much tribalism and I feel like 00:45:37.172 --> 00:45:38.052 it doesn't help anybody. 00:45:40.193 --> 00:45:41.815 being number one in WordPress, 00:45:41.835 --> 00:45:42.315 that's amazing. 00:45:42.375 --> 00:45:43.114 WordPress is great. 00:45:43.255 --> 00:45:44.056 I love WordPress. 00:45:44.815 --> 00:45:47.416 Uh, but does it, 00:45:47.476 --> 00:45:49.577 is that what's really important or is 00:45:49.617 --> 00:45:51.179 getting more people onto the open web 00:45:51.219 --> 00:45:52.860 regardless of what that means more 00:45:52.880 --> 00:45:53.260 important? 00:45:53.780 --> 00:45:55.601 Yeah. 00:45:55.661 --> 00:45:58.181 Well, thank you, Mike, for coming, uh, 00:45:58.222 --> 00:46:00.242 that we're kind of at time at this 00:46:00.302 --> 00:46:00.603 point. 00:46:00.922 --> 00:46:02.784 Uh, but before we go, uh, 00:46:02.963 --> 00:46:04.965 where can people find you on the internet? 00:46:06.670 --> 00:46:06.929 Sure. 00:46:07.010 --> 00:46:08.811 So you can find me on my website, 00:46:08.871 --> 00:46:10.592 Mike demo.com. 00:46:11.934 --> 00:46:13.534 MP Mike on X. 00:46:15.536 --> 00:46:16.777 And that's where I'm most active. 00:46:17.677 --> 00:46:20.440 And yeah, I'm also can, 00:46:21.601 --> 00:46:23.161 you can find me at hosting.com and 00:46:23.483 --> 00:46:25.543 different webinars and things over time. 00:46:25.563 --> 00:46:28.206 But pretty much all my links from Mike 00:46:28.226 --> 00:46:30.447 demo.com will get you to all of the 00:46:30.507 --> 00:46:32.068 socials and all of the things. 00:46:32.940 --> 00:46:33.201 Awesome. 00:46:33.822 --> 00:46:35.224 Well, thanks again for coming on. 00:46:35.764 --> 00:46:37.445 It was a pleasure to have you on 00:46:37.465 --> 00:46:37.927 the show. 00:46:39.007 --> 00:46:40.369 And yeah, 00:46:40.389 --> 00:46:41.891 for everyone else that is watching or 00:46:41.931 --> 00:46:42.771 listening to this, 00:46:43.413 --> 00:46:45.755 we will see you on the internet. 00:46:45.795 --> 00:46:46.376 Awesome. 00:46:46.456 --> 00:46:46.677 Thanks.