WEBVTT

00:00:18.951 --> 00:00:20.271
Welcome to Community & Code,

00:00:20.291 --> 00:00:22.174
the podcast where we talk to the human

00:00:22.214 --> 00:00:23.394
beings behind the commits.

00:00:23.836 --> 00:00:25.836
I am here today with Dee Thiel.

00:00:26.118 --> 00:00:27.679
She is a project manager.

00:00:27.778 --> 00:00:29.541
She has been in the WordPress ecosystem

00:00:29.561 --> 00:00:30.821
for a long time, but not now.

00:00:31.343 --> 00:00:34.085
And you are one of the mentors involved

00:00:34.225 --> 00:00:36.146
in WP Includes, which we can talk about.

00:00:36.948 --> 00:00:38.849
I'll let you introduce yourself more

00:00:38.929 --> 00:00:40.251
fully, but welcome to the show, Dee.

00:00:40.946 --> 00:00:41.446
Thank you, Chris.

00:00:41.527 --> 00:00:42.367
It's lovely to be here.

00:00:42.388 --> 00:00:43.408
Hi, folks.

00:00:43.449 --> 00:00:43.888
I'm Dee.

00:00:44.250 --> 00:00:46.190
I am coming at you live from, well,

00:00:46.231 --> 00:00:48.332
not live probably, from Melbourne,

00:00:48.373 --> 00:00:48.893
Australia.

00:00:49.073 --> 00:00:50.634
I'm a New Zealander who's now lived in

00:00:50.674 --> 00:00:52.695
Australia almost longer than I ever lived

00:00:52.735 --> 00:00:53.256
in New Zealand.

00:00:53.277 --> 00:00:57.460
And, yeah, I love the WordPress community.

00:00:57.539 --> 00:00:58.000
As Chris said,

00:00:58.060 --> 00:01:00.222
I'm no longer actually actively working in

00:01:00.262 --> 00:01:01.402
it, though, to be fair.

00:01:01.423 --> 00:01:03.424
I've just landed a client that has

00:01:03.465 --> 00:01:03.905
WordPress.

00:01:05.713 --> 00:01:07.615
But I have stayed very close to it,

00:01:07.715 --> 00:01:09.555
largely because most of my friends are

00:01:09.576 --> 00:01:10.137
still there.

00:01:11.338 --> 00:01:11.938
And you never know,

00:01:11.978 --> 00:01:13.079
maybe one day I'll be back.

00:01:13.378 --> 00:01:16.000
So I'm keeping close just to make sure.

00:01:16.040 --> 00:01:18.042
So I think the question that everyone is

00:01:18.162 --> 00:01:21.024
definitely dying to hear the answer to is,

00:01:21.085 --> 00:01:22.266
what is the difference between a New

00:01:22.305 --> 00:01:24.367
Zealander and an Australian?

00:01:25.269 --> 00:01:27.811
Oh, man, that is a fraught,

00:01:28.070 --> 00:01:28.912
fraught question.

00:01:29.012 --> 00:01:29.432
I know,

00:01:29.451 --> 00:01:31.072
and that's why I brought it here.

00:01:31.534 --> 00:01:32.634
You might as well ask what's the

00:01:32.653 --> 00:01:33.834
difference between a Canadian and

00:01:33.875 --> 00:01:34.376
American.

00:01:35.031 --> 00:01:35.712
Ooh, yeah.

00:01:35.733 --> 00:01:36.612
Okay.

00:01:36.673 --> 00:01:36.772
Okay.

00:01:36.813 --> 00:01:37.052
I mean,

00:01:37.072 --> 00:01:38.433
there's things I could name for sure.

00:01:39.055 --> 00:01:39.715
Like, you know,

00:01:39.875 --> 00:01:41.176
socialized healthcare for one.

00:01:41.195 --> 00:01:42.057
Well, yes.

00:01:42.456 --> 00:01:43.817
I mean, we both,

00:01:44.078 --> 00:01:44.978
New Zealand and Australia,

00:01:45.438 --> 00:01:48.460
both have that in our favor.

00:01:48.820 --> 00:01:50.421
So there are some stark differences

00:01:50.542 --> 00:01:51.683
perhaps between industry.

00:01:51.763 --> 00:01:52.463
Because I would put us,

00:01:53.343 --> 00:01:54.224
as a New Zealander,

00:01:54.325 --> 00:01:56.727
would probably say that the analogy would

00:01:56.766 --> 00:01:57.106
be,

00:01:57.447 --> 00:01:59.888
I would liken Australia more to America

00:01:59.909 --> 00:02:00.009
than

00:02:00.328 --> 00:02:01.709
In that scenario,

00:02:01.828 --> 00:02:03.750
not because Australia is like America,

00:02:03.829 --> 00:02:07.570
but in terms of the personality,

00:02:07.611 --> 00:02:09.751
maybe I'm going to get so much.

00:02:12.472 --> 00:02:14.793
I'm sure there are no Australians that

00:02:14.832 --> 00:02:15.713
listen to this show.

00:02:19.349 --> 00:02:20.689
No,

00:02:21.631 --> 00:02:23.632
I guess it's similar to the relationship

00:02:23.691 --> 00:02:25.472
you see in that kind of big brother,

00:02:25.673 --> 00:02:26.673
or not even big brother,

00:02:26.693 --> 00:02:29.335
but that sibling type rivalry.

00:02:29.455 --> 00:02:32.597
I mean, I think we, one of the,

00:02:32.917 --> 00:02:33.076
I mean,

00:02:33.137 --> 00:02:35.978
New Zealand is a rugby union loving

00:02:36.138 --> 00:02:36.579
nation.

00:02:37.258 --> 00:02:38.819
Kind of everybody in New Zealand lives and

00:02:38.840 --> 00:02:40.721
breathes what goes on in the rugby and

00:02:40.760 --> 00:02:41.860
very little else.

00:02:42.882 --> 00:02:45.402
And I think our attitude is that we

00:02:45.423 --> 00:02:46.484
will support everyone

00:02:47.609 --> 00:02:48.930
New Zealand, above all,

00:02:49.189 --> 00:02:50.871
and then any other country playing

00:02:50.911 --> 00:02:51.371
Australia.

00:02:53.353 --> 00:02:55.334
So that's kind of a little bit indicative

00:02:55.533 --> 00:02:59.175
of how people feel.

00:02:59.216 --> 00:03:01.097
So we know each other from a long

00:03:01.137 --> 00:03:02.837
time ago when we both worked at Human

00:03:02.858 --> 00:03:04.558
Made, which is a WordPress agency,

00:03:05.599 --> 00:03:07.001
and we worked together a lot in that

00:03:07.040 --> 00:03:07.741
context.

00:03:08.341 --> 00:03:11.603
And, I mean...

00:03:13.003 --> 00:03:15.784
I have always really enjoyed the few

00:03:15.865 --> 00:03:18.765
opportunities that we have had to see each

00:03:18.806 --> 00:03:20.586
other in person because it's quite a

00:03:20.646 --> 00:03:23.467
distance between where you live and where

00:03:23.608 --> 00:03:26.569
I live and where things are often sort

00:03:26.610 --> 00:03:29.390
of organized and people gather.

00:03:30.290 --> 00:03:32.812
But there have been a few occasions.

00:03:33.451 --> 00:03:34.752
Most recently, though,

00:03:34.812 --> 00:03:36.774
we were both in Ottawa for WordCamp

00:03:36.813 --> 00:03:37.174
Canada.

00:03:37.193 --> 00:03:38.414
That's true.

00:03:38.455 --> 00:03:41.015
Talk about the talk that you gave at

00:03:41.096 --> 00:03:41.816
WordCamp Canada.

00:03:43.407 --> 00:03:47.750
So I am very,

00:03:48.030 --> 00:03:50.431
very interested in the dynamics and

00:03:50.450 --> 00:03:53.633
relationships about people working

00:03:53.652 --> 00:03:54.032
together.

00:03:55.413 --> 00:03:59.836
So I'm going to struggle, actually.

00:03:59.936 --> 00:04:01.056
I should have actually pulled it up

00:04:01.076 --> 00:04:02.276
because I'm going to struggle to remember

00:04:02.296 --> 00:04:02.717
the title.

00:04:02.757 --> 00:04:04.098
It's kind of a convoluted title,

00:04:04.117 --> 00:04:08.840
but I was talking about the algorithms

00:04:09.259 --> 00:04:11.882
that humans bring to the workplace.

00:04:12.801 --> 00:04:14.443
Less so than the algorithms that we...

00:04:14.783 --> 00:04:16.145
Right, cultural algorithms.

00:04:16.245 --> 00:04:17.646
Cultural algorithms, yeah.

00:04:17.687 --> 00:04:20.128
The hidden innovation multiplier, I think,

00:04:20.169 --> 00:04:21.849
was what the rest of that...

00:04:21.889 --> 00:04:23.731
Something very pretentious.

00:04:23.771 --> 00:04:25.813
Well, it is really pretentious,

00:04:26.394 --> 00:04:29.076
and it was sneaky because I read the

00:04:29.176 --> 00:04:29.676
brief...

00:04:30.578 --> 00:04:32.258
from the organizers to say,

00:04:32.299 --> 00:04:33.679
this is what we wanted to talk about.

00:04:34.060 --> 00:04:36.740
And I couldn't see the,

00:04:37.161 --> 00:04:38.541
because innovation was,

00:04:39.182 --> 00:04:42.103
was a primary driver, right.

00:04:42.163 --> 00:04:42.223
Of,

00:04:42.382 --> 00:04:43.723
of the conversations that they were

00:04:43.744 --> 00:04:44.363
wanting to have.

00:04:44.704 --> 00:04:47.064
And so this was a carefully crafted title

00:04:47.084 --> 00:04:49.786
to cut through the selection process and

00:04:49.807 --> 00:04:50.406
it worked.

00:04:51.646 --> 00:04:53.327
And so, but the whole,

00:04:53.408 --> 00:04:55.968
the whole theme of it was that sense

00:04:56.048 --> 00:04:58.529
of particularly in this world that we work

00:04:58.589 --> 00:04:59.110
in, that is,

00:05:01.382 --> 00:05:02.141
much more remote,

00:05:02.221 --> 00:05:04.043
much more virtual environments that gives

00:05:04.084 --> 00:05:07.326
you access to a much greater diversity of

00:05:07.446 --> 00:05:11.569
cultural experience and cultural

00:05:11.649 --> 00:05:13.250
algorithms that people bring to the

00:05:13.269 --> 00:05:13.711
workplace.

00:05:13.771 --> 00:05:14.690
And so it was kind of a bit

00:05:14.730 --> 00:05:17.333
of a research examination to explore what

00:05:17.372 --> 00:05:18.774
that actually looked like and what that

00:05:18.814 --> 00:05:21.836
actually might mean on the...

00:05:22.860 --> 00:05:25.041
that you're on the face of people actually

00:05:25.081 --> 00:05:27.963
working together because one of the, yeah,

00:05:27.983 --> 00:05:29.826
it's really interesting to me to go, well,

00:05:29.925 --> 00:05:33.088
I've got people who, um, I'm in, uh,

00:05:33.127 --> 00:05:34.468
you know, Australia, Asia Pacific.

00:05:34.528 --> 00:05:37.451
And so we have people working from between

00:05:37.531 --> 00:05:39.291
Australia and New Zealand, which is, uh,

00:05:39.312 --> 00:05:39.531
you know,

00:05:41.697 --> 00:05:44.119
a result of colonialism and so a dominant

00:05:44.139 --> 00:05:47.182
white culture by and large and then other

00:05:47.221 --> 00:05:50.845
countries working alongside us are working

00:05:51.004 --> 00:05:53.586
that we have access to that you know

00:05:53.607 --> 00:05:54.848
there's a lot of workplaces that are

00:05:54.867 --> 00:05:56.250
having to navigate okay what does that

00:05:56.269 --> 00:05:57.531
look like when we've got all of these

00:05:57.550 --> 00:05:58.872
different cultures working together.

00:06:00.033 --> 00:06:00.514
Yeah,

00:06:00.533 --> 00:06:03.276
and maybe I warmed up that particular

00:06:03.336 --> 00:06:05.857
subject a little bit more accidentally

00:06:05.896 --> 00:06:07.437
than I had intended to by even just

00:06:07.478 --> 00:06:10.158
talking about the difference of New

00:06:10.199 --> 00:06:11.879
Zealand and Australia and the difference

00:06:11.899 --> 00:06:13.540
between Canada and the US because

00:06:15.341 --> 00:06:17.363
I definitely remember the...

00:06:18.105 --> 00:06:20.487
I wouldn't say it's necessarily culture

00:06:20.526 --> 00:06:20.867
shock,

00:06:20.887 --> 00:06:22.869
but it's definitely a cultural adjustment

00:06:23.670 --> 00:06:26.331
that I went through transitioning from

00:06:26.391 --> 00:06:29.694
working at a US-based agency,

00:06:29.735 --> 00:06:30.675
WebDev Studios.

00:06:31.156 --> 00:06:33.319
WordPress agency does a lot of the big

00:06:33.819 --> 00:06:34.899
enterprise-level clients.

00:06:35.341 --> 00:06:37.483
And then working at HumanMaid,

00:06:37.682 --> 00:06:38.843
which was largely

00:06:39.524 --> 00:06:42.627
European based but also just remote first

00:06:42.687 --> 00:06:45.389
much more remote first with people from

00:06:45.848 --> 00:06:47.990
like all all across all the time zones

00:06:48.029 --> 00:06:52.434
of the world and there is there is

00:06:52.473 --> 00:06:54.615
an adjustment in expectations there's an

00:06:54.654 --> 00:06:57.096
adjustment in and not like expectations in

00:06:57.117 --> 00:06:59.017
terms of like the work itself but like

00:06:59.519 --> 00:07:00.959
the the things that you expect

00:07:01.600 --> 00:07:02.581
from a conversation,

00:07:02.641 --> 00:07:04.362
the things you expect from an employer or

00:07:04.382 --> 00:07:06.562
an employer-employee relationship.

00:07:07.043 --> 00:07:08.923
And the things that are expected of you

00:07:08.944 --> 00:07:09.843
as well.

00:07:10.204 --> 00:07:11.485
Yeah.

00:07:11.625 --> 00:07:11.884
Yeah.

00:07:12.064 --> 00:07:13.545
And so I thought that like,

00:07:13.605 --> 00:07:15.305
and one of the things that I appreciated

00:07:15.346 --> 00:07:18.468
too about particularly as you brought that

00:07:18.548 --> 00:07:21.069
talk to WordCamp Canada was you actually

00:07:21.088 --> 00:07:23.970
did research on some of the Canadian sort

00:07:23.990 --> 00:07:26.651
of cultures and things that different

00:07:26.711 --> 00:07:28.831
cultures within Canada might bring to the

00:07:28.872 --> 00:07:29.512
table as well.

00:07:30.132 --> 00:07:32.533
Yeah, so when I was exploring, I mean,

00:07:32.574 --> 00:07:35.555
cultural algorithms is kind of a phrase

00:07:35.795 --> 00:07:38.654
that got coined through the process of me

00:07:38.735 --> 00:07:39.355
organising this.

00:07:39.375 --> 00:07:41.396
It's not something that you generally,

00:07:41.475 --> 00:07:41.755
I think,

00:07:41.776 --> 00:07:44.076
would go searching and looking for and

00:07:44.137 --> 00:07:45.476
find a whole lot of research on.

00:07:45.536 --> 00:07:46.918
So a lot of the research and stuff

00:07:46.937 --> 00:07:48.858
that I was looking at was what are

00:07:49.298 --> 00:07:51.879
the kind of underlying things that happen

00:07:51.918 --> 00:07:52.639
in different cultures?

00:07:52.678 --> 00:07:54.079
And the two that I really spoke to

00:07:54.120 --> 00:07:54.839
was a Dutch one.

00:07:55.480 --> 00:07:56.942
And then one, because I was up in,

00:07:57.401 --> 00:07:59.862
you know, northeast Canada,

00:08:00.382 --> 00:08:04.365
there's an indigenous people's group there

00:08:04.384 --> 00:08:06.706
that has published a lot of information

00:08:06.745 --> 00:08:07.807
about how they do things,

00:08:07.846 --> 00:08:10.148
and they talked about the seven

00:08:10.187 --> 00:08:11.028
generations.

00:08:11.288 --> 00:08:12.149
Mm-hmm.

00:08:12.788 --> 00:08:15.610
approach to how they plan and do things.

00:08:15.670 --> 00:08:17.690
And what that is, of course,

00:08:17.850 --> 00:08:20.132
even when you hear it talked about like

00:08:20.151 --> 00:08:22.233
that, is thinking that far ahead.

00:08:22.452 --> 00:08:23.814
What is the impact of what I'm going

00:08:23.853 --> 00:08:24.113
to do?

00:08:24.173 --> 00:08:26.254
Going to be on not just the generation

00:08:26.274 --> 00:08:26.735
behind me,

00:08:26.774 --> 00:08:28.855
but all of those to follow and planning

00:08:28.915 --> 00:08:29.475
accordingly.

00:08:29.516 --> 00:08:32.036
And if somebody is in your workplace and

00:08:32.076 --> 00:08:33.737
that is the attitude that they have,

00:08:33.798 --> 00:08:35.418
you're going to see their output be

00:08:35.458 --> 00:08:35.877
slower.

00:08:35.918 --> 00:08:37.278
You're going to see them be a lot

00:08:37.298 --> 00:08:38.560
more considered in the course of a

00:08:38.620 --> 00:08:39.259
conversation.

00:08:40.019 --> 00:08:41.581
And so it's important to me,

00:08:42.322 --> 00:08:43.502
we have this expectation.

00:08:43.783 --> 00:08:45.485
Here's this company.

00:08:46.185 --> 00:08:48.526
We have an underlying culture about how we

00:08:48.567 --> 00:08:48.807
work,

00:08:48.827 --> 00:08:49.928
and a lot of that will be driven

00:08:50.708 --> 00:08:52.350
by our company values and the direction

00:08:52.370 --> 00:08:53.912
that we're going and by the culture of

00:08:53.951 --> 00:08:55.373
the leaders that we have in this group.

00:08:56.975 --> 00:08:58.836
And kind of bringing people into that,

00:08:58.875 --> 00:09:00.457
we have this expectation that,

00:09:01.197 --> 00:09:04.360
that people will adjust themselves to fit

00:09:04.880 --> 00:09:05.542
the culture.

00:09:06.142 --> 00:09:09.325
And that is a natural expectation,

00:09:09.404 --> 00:09:11.525
I think, and certainly that does happen.

00:09:11.927 --> 00:09:13.048
Certainly know that for me,

00:09:13.067 --> 00:09:14.928
the culture at Human Made has wildly

00:09:14.969 --> 00:09:17.510
affected my expectations of culture in

00:09:17.530 --> 00:09:18.192
other places,

00:09:19.932 --> 00:09:22.375
just because it was such a transformative

00:09:22.434 --> 00:09:23.255
workplace for me.

00:09:24.419 --> 00:09:26.662
So, but, you know,

00:09:26.682 --> 00:09:28.822
when you're looking and expecting people

00:09:28.842 --> 00:09:29.803
to kind of, you know,

00:09:29.864 --> 00:09:31.384
I heard somebody talking about the melting

00:09:31.424 --> 00:09:31.605
pot.

00:09:31.625 --> 00:09:33.307
You expect everybody to come in and adjust

00:09:33.326 --> 00:09:34.947
themselves and fit themselves to what

00:09:35.408 --> 00:09:35.889
you're in.

00:09:36.328 --> 00:09:40.052
You lose some of the richness and some

00:09:40.091 --> 00:09:42.433
of the opportunities for innovation that

00:09:42.453 --> 00:09:42.514
you

00:09:43.354 --> 00:09:46.635
um having some different perspectives and

00:09:46.716 --> 00:09:49.018
different approaches might actually might

00:09:49.057 --> 00:09:50.479
actually bring and so some of the things

00:09:50.499 --> 00:09:52.620
that i talked about was when you explore

00:09:52.760 --> 00:09:55.481
here are some ways to recognize or examine

00:09:55.522 --> 00:09:57.023
kind of the different cultures that are in

00:09:57.043 --> 00:09:59.524
your workplace here are some of the ways

00:09:59.544 --> 00:10:02.726
that that might be useful to to leverage

00:10:03.086 --> 00:10:05.249
um yeah

00:10:08.273 --> 00:10:12.297
I remember asking the question or maybe

00:10:12.356 --> 00:10:16.399
making the observation during your talk or

00:10:17.120 --> 00:10:18.501
at the end of the Q&A section.

00:10:19.842 --> 00:10:22.804
Because growing up in the United States,

00:10:23.566 --> 00:10:25.206
it's almost part of the, I think,

00:10:25.888 --> 00:10:27.850
academic curriculum to...

00:10:29.620 --> 00:10:32.601
conceptualize the united states as a

00:10:32.642 --> 00:10:34.802
melting pot where we have lots of people

00:10:35.163 --> 00:10:36.524
coming from different cultures and

00:10:36.543 --> 00:10:38.384
whatever and we make the thing that is

00:10:38.524 --> 00:10:40.605
america we make this this project right

00:10:40.644 --> 00:10:46.047
together um and one of the the the

00:10:46.187 --> 00:10:47.748
insights that

00:10:49.174 --> 00:10:52.578
I got from your talk was just the

00:10:52.678 --> 00:10:53.399
idea that,

00:10:54.321 --> 00:10:58.284
or the suggestion that maybe not.

00:10:58.605 --> 00:11:00.307
Maybe not that.

00:11:01.629 --> 00:11:04.111
Maybe we don't melt all of those things

00:11:04.231 --> 00:11:04.913
in a pot.

00:11:05.371 --> 00:11:08.594
maybe we celebrate those differences and

00:11:08.614 --> 00:11:11.975
those voices because they bring new things

00:11:12.015 --> 00:11:12.576
to the table.

00:11:12.917 --> 00:11:13.297
Yeah.

00:11:13.878 --> 00:11:14.557
Yeah,

00:11:14.577 --> 00:11:15.859
I can't remember if this was something

00:11:15.899 --> 00:11:18.000
somebody said in the context of that talk

00:11:18.039 --> 00:11:19.280
or in the Q&A that we were talking

00:11:19.321 --> 00:11:19.561
about,

00:11:19.662 --> 00:11:22.663
but I was thinking that melting pot thing

00:11:22.703 --> 00:11:23.844
really, really struck me.

00:11:24.325 --> 00:11:26.505
And I was kind of, my thing is,

00:11:26.546 --> 00:11:28.047
what if it was more like a tapestry

00:11:28.067 --> 00:11:29.148
where you've got all these different

00:11:29.187 --> 00:11:30.188
things that are weaving in together?

00:11:30.208 --> 00:11:31.649
And I can't remember if somebody said

00:11:31.690 --> 00:11:31.809
that.

00:11:31.850 --> 00:11:33.610
I think somebody might have said something

00:11:33.650 --> 00:11:33.951
like that.

00:11:33.990 --> 00:11:34.912
But that sense of,

00:11:35.491 --> 00:11:36.714
We all bring something.

00:11:37.553 --> 00:11:40.597
We all recognize that what everybody

00:11:40.658 --> 00:11:42.700
brings is valuable and that the picture

00:11:42.720 --> 00:11:45.984
that we make with everything is much more

00:11:46.024 --> 00:11:48.285
compelling than if we just... I mean,

00:11:48.306 --> 00:11:49.307
you remember when you were playing with

00:11:49.347 --> 00:11:50.288
Play-Doh as a kid, right?

00:11:50.308 --> 00:11:51.490
You've got all these different colors and

00:11:51.509 --> 00:11:52.551
you put all these things together.

00:11:52.850 --> 00:11:54.133
And the more that you mix them together,

00:11:54.173 --> 00:11:55.153
the more ugly it gets.

00:11:55.234 --> 00:11:55.575
It's that...

00:11:57.115 --> 00:12:00.058
yucky brown weird brown yeah yeah and it's

00:12:00.119 --> 00:12:02.301
like but when when they're all when there

00:12:02.341 --> 00:12:04.182
is that separation but they are all part

00:12:04.243 --> 00:12:06.043
of something that's a whole the sculpture

00:12:06.063 --> 00:12:08.105
or whatever it is that you're making it's

00:12:08.125 --> 00:12:10.028
so much more dynamic and interesting and

00:12:10.067 --> 00:12:13.850
bright and valuable than because you

00:12:14.191 --> 00:12:16.953
everybody still has those pieces that are

00:12:18.054 --> 00:12:20.856
uniquely them it hasn't just become this

00:12:20.897 --> 00:12:22.178
homogenous lump of

00:12:24.775 --> 00:12:25.035
I mean,

00:12:25.115 --> 00:12:26.597
it's an interesting thing to talk about in

00:12:26.638 --> 00:12:27.839
the current dynamic, right?

00:12:28.119 --> 00:12:32.003
Where certainly when all of the things

00:12:32.023 --> 00:12:34.445
that we see outside of America and what's

00:12:34.504 --> 00:12:35.205
going on there,

00:12:35.525 --> 00:12:38.629
it's maybe politically dicey to talk

00:12:38.649 --> 00:12:38.889
about,

00:12:38.948 --> 00:12:42.831
but that sense of that homogenous or this

00:12:43.072 --> 00:12:43.732
other culture,

00:12:43.793 --> 00:12:47.375
the white culture is so much more prime

00:12:47.537 --> 00:12:47.897
than white.

00:12:49.083 --> 00:12:51.304
we're losing that sense of the melting

00:12:51.345 --> 00:12:51.445
pot.

00:12:51.465 --> 00:12:52.945
It's like, oh no,

00:12:53.004 --> 00:12:54.225
we absolutely can't possibly.

00:12:54.306 --> 00:12:55.905
And so that we need to separate rather

00:12:55.946 --> 00:12:57.147
than bring together.

00:12:57.187 --> 00:12:58.466
And it's heartbreaking to watch.

00:12:58.486 --> 00:13:02.149
And now I'm visualizing this idea,

00:13:02.188 --> 00:13:05.529
this concept of the United States as a

00:13:05.610 --> 00:13:06.210
melting pot,

00:13:06.389 --> 00:13:08.791
as a ugly lump of brown clay.

00:13:09.370 --> 00:13:10.350
I'm so sorry.

00:13:10.532 --> 00:13:11.072
It wasn't real.

00:13:11.172 --> 00:13:12.371
It wasn't my intention at all.

00:13:12.692 --> 00:13:15.232
No, I mean, it's, it's because I,

00:13:15.474 --> 00:13:16.374
I like, it's just,

00:13:16.474 --> 00:13:17.934
it's interesting to think about in those,

00:13:18.054 --> 00:13:19.434
in, in those different terms.

00:13:19.475 --> 00:13:20.436
And even like, like,

00:13:20.456 --> 00:13:21.676
you don't even have to like, look at,

00:13:21.855 --> 00:13:24.716
at like this idea from like such a

00:13:24.817 --> 00:13:27.717
sort of broad high level, uh,

00:13:27.758 --> 00:13:28.739
like perspective.

00:13:29.239 --> 00:13:30.219
Um, because it's,

00:13:30.460 --> 00:13:33.221
it's most of the time it's.

00:13:34.100 --> 00:13:34.902
the little things,

00:13:34.961 --> 00:13:38.525
it's the little interactions that are just

00:13:39.187 --> 00:13:41.168
things that you don't necessarily expect

00:13:41.428 --> 00:13:43.511
or communication patterns that are

00:13:43.572 --> 00:13:44.533
different between people.

00:13:44.993 --> 00:13:48.977
And when you are operating at a much

00:13:49.057 --> 00:13:50.219
more global level,

00:13:50.899 --> 00:13:52.481
like I think you and I both were

00:13:52.662 --> 00:13:53.322
at Human Made,

00:13:54.823 --> 00:13:58.105
then it brings these things into the focus

00:13:58.225 --> 00:14:00.346
more and you need to learn how to

00:14:00.427 --> 00:14:02.607
communicate in a way that is a little

00:14:02.628 --> 00:14:03.048
bit different.

00:14:03.467 --> 00:14:07.070
Is that where you sort of started getting

00:14:07.110 --> 00:14:09.691
this interest in this kind of idea is

00:14:09.890 --> 00:14:11.572
through our work together there?

00:14:12.152 --> 00:14:13.113
Yeah, it was.

00:14:13.413 --> 00:14:14.653
Sorry, I've got a cat here.

00:14:14.693 --> 00:14:16.835
I'm trying desperately to make sure she

00:14:16.855 --> 00:14:18.174
doesn't stand on the things that will turn

00:14:18.315 --> 00:14:19.336
off the computer.

00:14:19.355 --> 00:14:20.676
Just sit on your bed and be cool.

00:14:22.801 --> 00:14:23.041
Yeah,

00:14:23.160 --> 00:14:26.105
it was the event that we were at,

00:14:26.424 --> 00:14:28.287
the meetup that we were at,

00:14:28.527 --> 00:14:30.109
where we did the cultural...

00:14:30.389 --> 00:14:31.951
It wasn't cultural sensitivity training.

00:14:32.010 --> 00:14:33.331
It was implicit bias training.

00:14:33.351 --> 00:14:33.972
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:14:34.033 --> 00:14:34.592
Okay.

00:14:34.793 --> 00:14:35.333
Yeah, yeah.

00:14:35.553 --> 00:14:35.673
Yep.

00:14:35.734 --> 00:14:36.715
That was in Sri Lanka.

00:14:36.796 --> 00:14:36.916
Yep.

00:14:37.076 --> 00:14:37.836
That was in Sri Lanka.

00:14:38.157 --> 00:14:40.178
And I was...

00:14:41.659 --> 00:14:45.123
wildly confronted with my own racial bias.

00:14:45.163 --> 00:14:46.243
Now, I grew up in New Zealand.

00:14:46.464 --> 00:14:48.924
We are multicultural, mostly with,

00:14:49.586 --> 00:14:51.527
you know, New Zealand, we call it,

00:14:51.567 --> 00:14:53.607
the Maori word in New Zealand is pakeha,

00:14:53.648 --> 00:14:55.249
so the white people are the pakeha.

00:14:55.929 --> 00:14:56.970
So I am pakeha.

00:14:57.350 --> 00:14:57.510
And

00:15:00.355 --> 00:15:01.375
As people will know,

00:15:01.817 --> 00:15:03.298
the indigenous culture in New Zealand or

00:15:03.339 --> 00:15:04.660
the indigenous people of New Zealand are

00:15:04.681 --> 00:15:05.101
the Māori,

00:15:05.422 --> 00:15:06.804
but there are also a lot of Pasifika

00:15:06.904 --> 00:15:08.707
people, so people from Samoa,

00:15:09.688 --> 00:15:10.931
the Cook Islands, Rarotonga,

00:15:10.971 --> 00:15:12.352
all of these other places.

00:15:13.735 --> 00:15:15.917
And there is a lot of work being

00:15:15.976 --> 00:15:16.236
done.

00:15:16.557 --> 00:15:17.818
They are by no means perfect,

00:15:17.859 --> 00:15:18.960
but there has been a lot of work

00:15:19.080 --> 00:15:19.539
done there.

00:15:19.620 --> 00:15:22.042
But what I hadn't realized is, you know,

00:15:22.602 --> 00:15:24.524
I have a boomer dad still with us.

00:15:24.724 --> 00:15:25.465
Love him dearly.

00:15:25.544 --> 00:15:27.307
Has some what we would consider now very

00:15:27.846 --> 00:15:28.687
old-fashioned attitudes.

00:15:28.707 --> 00:15:30.870
And I recognized while we were in those

00:15:30.909 --> 00:15:32.910
sessions in Sri Lanka was that

00:15:34.133 --> 00:15:35.955
I was racist,

00:15:36.836 --> 00:15:38.798
that my underlying attitudes and that my

00:15:38.918 --> 00:15:43.383
underlying biases were very much against

00:15:43.403 --> 00:15:43.884
me.

00:15:46.849 --> 00:15:47.629
You know, again,

00:15:47.990 --> 00:15:50.832
my bias was against people from India or

00:15:50.873 --> 00:15:52.794
people from the islands or the brown

00:15:52.815 --> 00:15:53.676
people were.

00:15:54.196 --> 00:15:56.077
And I was horrified because that was not

00:15:56.118 --> 00:15:57.438
what I wanted to think intellectually.

00:15:57.479 --> 00:15:58.899
But this had been so and so deep

00:15:58.961 --> 00:15:59.201
in me.

00:15:59.701 --> 00:16:02.224
And so having to learn and recognize that

00:16:02.423 --> 00:16:04.745
and then do the work around that.

00:16:05.678 --> 00:16:08.500
confronting that and we all have biases we

00:16:08.580 --> 00:16:10.981
all have and so there's interesting places

00:16:11.022 --> 00:16:12.261
that you can go if you're interested to

00:16:12.302 --> 00:16:13.923
go well what are my biases you know

00:16:13.942 --> 00:16:17.125
I grew up deeply religious Christianity so

00:16:17.184 --> 00:16:18.605
then of course you come with some biases

00:16:18.625 --> 00:16:22.647
there around the queer community and so I

00:16:22.687 --> 00:16:26.188
think in my mid to like late forties

00:16:26.509 --> 00:16:28.210
and now here in my fifties it's like

00:16:29.150 --> 00:16:30.770
there's just been this radical

00:16:30.811 --> 00:16:33.033
transformation kind of inside my head and

00:16:33.072 --> 00:16:33.773
heart about

00:16:34.738 --> 00:16:37.538
the value of people and I think that

00:16:37.578 --> 00:16:39.558
some of that passion that I have for

00:16:39.938 --> 00:16:42.460
you know DEI initiatives and for you know

00:16:42.500 --> 00:16:43.820
this kind of work and going well let's

00:16:43.860 --> 00:16:46.039
just examine that a little bit more and

00:16:46.100 --> 00:16:50.341
trying to show people the value of what

00:16:50.480 --> 00:16:52.861
other people and cultures bring and and

00:16:53.481 --> 00:16:55.422
let's just not always assume that because

00:16:55.442 --> 00:16:56.942
we have these attitudes in our head that

00:16:56.982 --> 00:16:57.903
our attitudes are right

00:16:58.464 --> 00:16:58.744
And then,

00:16:59.644 --> 00:17:03.086
so I talk like what I delivered in

00:17:03.186 --> 00:17:04.927
Ottawa and then I've done, you know,

00:17:05.067 --> 00:17:08.488
others as well along some of these lines

00:17:08.648 --> 00:17:10.068
is all geared towards,

00:17:10.548 --> 00:17:12.230
I just want to open people's eyes and

00:17:12.250 --> 00:17:13.330
go, hang on just a second,

00:17:13.409 --> 00:17:15.171
confront the own log that's in your own

00:17:15.331 --> 00:17:16.951
eye and then...

00:17:18.592 --> 00:17:20.394
And then you start to be able to

00:17:20.453 --> 00:17:22.413
see stuff in other people that you go,

00:17:22.534 --> 00:17:22.753
oh.

00:17:23.075 --> 00:17:24.694
And then be able to say, oh, well,

00:17:24.734 --> 00:17:26.395
that you bring that to us.

00:17:26.796 --> 00:17:28.395
You bring that into our workplace.

00:17:28.516 --> 00:17:29.876
Let's celebrate that.

00:17:30.757 --> 00:17:34.117
And when people are seen and recognized,

00:17:34.218 --> 00:17:36.719
not just because of how they fit into

00:17:36.838 --> 00:17:38.960
this square, you know,

00:17:39.059 --> 00:17:41.000
or how they fit into your environment or

00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:42.540
how they fit into your culture.

00:17:43.040 --> 00:17:46.223
But understand that in your culture,

00:17:46.263 --> 00:17:48.746
you recognize and celebrate and value

00:17:48.766 --> 00:17:49.125
theirs.

00:17:50.987 --> 00:17:51.247
You know,

00:17:51.367 --> 00:17:53.409
engagement goes off the chart because

00:17:53.429 --> 00:17:54.390
people are just like, oh,

00:17:54.450 --> 00:17:56.612
I'm seen and I'm valued for me,

00:17:56.672 --> 00:17:58.053
not just because of what I can do.

00:17:59.093 --> 00:18:00.134
Yeah,

00:18:00.153 --> 00:18:02.976
that particular implicit bias workshop

00:18:03.116 --> 00:18:04.718
that we shared together,

00:18:04.817 --> 00:18:07.619
like I also have very distinct memories of

00:18:07.660 --> 00:18:09.461
that in particular.

00:18:11.242 --> 00:18:11.262
I...

00:18:12.611 --> 00:18:14.471
the thing that I took away from that

00:18:14.551 --> 00:18:16.794
the most that I didn't expect,

00:18:17.653 --> 00:18:19.516
because there are things like going into

00:18:19.556 --> 00:18:20.415
it that like, I,

00:18:22.257 --> 00:18:23.938
I am a white male,

00:18:24.759 --> 00:18:27.800
cis presenting individual living in the

00:18:27.820 --> 00:18:29.162
Western part of the United States.

00:18:29.182 --> 00:18:29.521
Like I,

00:18:29.701 --> 00:18:32.263
I understand my privilege and I understand

00:18:32.324 --> 00:18:33.505
how I grew up and where I grew

00:18:33.565 --> 00:18:35.125
up and the relationship.

00:18:35.165 --> 00:18:37.007
And so I expect certain things about,

00:18:37.679 --> 00:18:39.960
how I was raised and what my culture

00:18:39.980 --> 00:18:42.381
was growing up and my experiences and

00:18:42.421 --> 00:18:42.800
whatever.

00:18:43.780 --> 00:18:45.182
And so there's certain things that I

00:18:45.221 --> 00:18:47.623
expect to find from something like that.

00:18:48.202 --> 00:18:51.963
What I did not expect to find in

00:18:52.023 --> 00:18:57.165
myself was that I was so deeply,

00:18:57.486 --> 00:18:59.547
and honestly, still am,

00:19:00.366 --> 00:19:03.327
deeply biased against gun owners and gun

00:19:03.367 --> 00:19:04.028
ownership.

00:19:04.048 --> 00:19:04.969
Oh, wow.

00:19:05.548 --> 00:19:05.929
Yeah.

00:19:06.273 --> 00:19:08.536
Like I, it was, it's like,

00:19:09.635 --> 00:19:11.057
there's something, I don't know,

00:19:11.156 --> 00:19:13.358
deep inside me that just like, it's like,

00:19:13.578 --> 00:19:13.699
I,

00:19:13.919 --> 00:19:15.579
I have an immediate picture in my head

00:19:16.020 --> 00:19:16.340
and I,

00:19:16.560 --> 00:19:18.962
I immediately have an impression that I

00:19:18.982 --> 00:19:21.484
have over, over people and,

00:19:21.545 --> 00:19:22.605
and an expectation.

00:19:23.086 --> 00:19:24.446
And then like a friend of mine,

00:19:24.567 --> 00:19:25.406
a fellow developer,

00:19:25.707 --> 00:19:27.429
someone who I've known who I had known

00:19:27.489 --> 00:19:29.869
for, you know, a couple years says like,

00:19:29.910 --> 00:19:31.991
well, I own a gun and like,

00:19:32.886 --> 00:19:34.647
And how confronting is that?

00:19:34.667 --> 00:19:36.108
So all of the noise in your head

00:19:36.128 --> 00:19:37.369
about what these people are like,

00:19:37.410 --> 00:19:38.611
and you're like, but I know you.

00:19:38.770 --> 00:19:39.151
Right.

00:19:39.471 --> 00:19:41.311
And you're not bad.

00:19:41.531 --> 00:19:42.032
I know, right?

00:19:42.272 --> 00:19:43.473
I mean,

00:19:43.574 --> 00:19:45.194
I come from a country where we have

00:19:45.454 --> 00:19:46.335
serious gun control.

00:19:46.355 --> 00:19:46.635
And again,

00:19:46.655 --> 00:19:47.675
I don't want to turn this into a

00:19:47.736 --> 00:19:48.836
political discussion about that.

00:19:48.896 --> 00:19:50.678
But I got confronted with a very,

00:19:50.698 --> 00:19:52.019
very similar experience.

00:19:52.439 --> 00:19:54.220
Beautiful people that I was staying with.

00:19:54.240 --> 00:19:55.621
And I still have this picture of him

00:19:55.961 --> 00:19:57.662
walking up the stairs with his handgun in

00:19:57.682 --> 00:19:58.123
his hand.

00:19:58.871 --> 00:19:59.351
And I'm like,

00:20:00.251 --> 00:20:02.874
I had no idea because I would just

00:20:02.894 --> 00:20:03.913
come from a place where you would never

00:20:03.973 --> 00:20:04.434
expect that.

00:20:04.454 --> 00:20:04.835
But yes,

00:20:04.914 --> 00:20:10.337
I completely understand and resonate with

00:20:10.378 --> 00:20:12.440
that sense of, oh,

00:20:12.700 --> 00:20:15.342
I have these expectations about what a

00:20:15.402 --> 00:20:17.643
person is going to be like based on,

00:20:18.123 --> 00:20:21.105
insert your bias here.

00:20:21.286 --> 00:20:24.847
And it's confronting to actually have

00:20:24.887 --> 00:20:27.529
those, realize, oh, hang on just a second.

00:20:28.349 --> 00:20:30.289
that is not a true picture of what

00:20:30.630 --> 00:20:31.611
people are really like.

00:20:31.971 --> 00:20:33.270
I think I had some interesting

00:20:33.310 --> 00:20:35.990
conversations because I did that talk and

00:20:36.070 --> 00:20:37.991
I flew from there back to Vancouver and

00:20:38.031 --> 00:20:39.652
I was hanging out with friends, again,

00:20:40.332 --> 00:20:42.451
former human-made colleagues, actually,

00:20:42.771 --> 00:20:43.573
who are from India.

00:20:44.472 --> 00:20:45.913
And I was spending some time with them

00:20:45.972 --> 00:20:48.573
and I was kind of unpacking the talk

00:20:49.013 --> 00:20:49.973
and what I'd come away from.

00:20:50.034 --> 00:20:51.493
I also heard Jill Binder's talk,

00:20:51.513 --> 00:20:53.114
which was also really, really good,

00:20:53.173 --> 00:20:54.673
touched on this as well.

00:20:55.075 --> 00:20:56.894
And I came away going, oh, Jill's was...

00:20:57.934 --> 00:20:59.115
Really impactful for me.

00:20:59.215 --> 00:21:02.537
And I was critiquing my own work against

00:21:02.576 --> 00:21:03.538
what Jill had delivered.

00:21:04.498 --> 00:21:05.939
Not necessarily negatively,

00:21:05.959 --> 00:21:06.638
but it was like, okay,

00:21:06.659 --> 00:21:07.940
so I would change this and I would

00:21:07.980 --> 00:21:08.539
go, you know,

00:21:08.559 --> 00:21:10.201
so I was kind of critiquing myself.

00:21:10.621 --> 00:21:12.321
But I sat down with these friends and

00:21:12.461 --> 00:21:13.622
I was talking to them.

00:21:14.962 --> 00:21:15.482
And I said,

00:21:15.522 --> 00:21:17.923
can we have some real discussions about

00:21:17.943 --> 00:21:18.084
this?

00:21:18.104 --> 00:21:19.505
Because now I have an opportunity.

00:21:19.545 --> 00:21:21.566
And they were open to talking about their

00:21:21.645 --> 00:21:22.185
experiences.

00:21:22.445 --> 00:21:23.185
And it was funny, actually,

00:21:23.205 --> 00:21:25.747
because we talked about that event and

00:21:25.767 --> 00:21:27.607
that bias training that we did.

00:21:27.728 --> 00:21:28.087
And I said,

00:21:28.147 --> 00:21:29.409
how was that experience from you?

00:21:29.429 --> 00:21:29.808
And they're like,

00:21:29.828 --> 00:21:31.490
we didn't learn anything because this is

00:21:31.509 --> 00:21:33.090
the stuff that they see all the time.

00:21:33.371 --> 00:21:35.050
But it was interesting for them to see

00:21:35.391 --> 00:21:38.452
the white people in the room go, ah,

00:21:38.673 --> 00:21:40.273
and actually start to get a sense.

00:21:40.294 --> 00:21:42.134
Because I know that they had challenges

00:21:42.233 --> 00:21:43.515
even in this, you know,

00:21:44.474 --> 00:21:47.296
beautifully accepting workplace that we

00:21:47.316 --> 00:21:47.596
were in.

00:21:47.616 --> 00:21:47.717
Yeah.

00:21:48.959 --> 00:21:49.338
Again,

00:21:49.679 --> 00:21:52.121
actually watching everybody start to come

00:21:52.520 --> 00:21:53.721
to grips with that.

00:21:54.182 --> 00:21:56.522
Like I cannot recommend companies,

00:21:56.563 --> 00:21:57.844
and if there's one thing anybody takes

00:21:57.864 --> 00:21:59.224
away from this conversation,

00:21:59.505 --> 00:22:01.066
I cannot recommend highly enough putting

00:22:01.086 --> 00:22:04.067
your teams through implicit bias training

00:22:04.126 --> 00:22:04.647
like this.

00:22:05.607 --> 00:22:07.689
Because that sense of,

00:22:07.868 --> 00:22:09.210
and I know empathy is a word that's

00:22:09.230 --> 00:22:10.411
getting a bad rap at the moment,

00:22:10.471 --> 00:22:12.571
but that sense of having an empathetic

00:22:12.852 --> 00:22:15.212
workforce that goes, oh,

00:22:15.232 --> 00:22:16.794
somebody might be seeing something

00:22:16.854 --> 00:22:19.255
different in this experience or this

00:22:19.555 --> 00:22:21.195
problem than I am.

00:22:21.536 --> 00:22:25.018
Maybe what they bring to it might actually

00:22:25.057 --> 00:22:26.678
be helpful rather than me expecting them

00:22:26.698 --> 00:22:28.659
to shift to solve the problem the same

00:22:28.719 --> 00:22:29.279
way as me.

00:22:29.339 --> 00:22:30.539
Like that was one of the things that

00:22:30.599 --> 00:22:33.602
came away was how do people solve problems

00:22:33.622 --> 00:22:34.021
differently?

00:22:36.123 --> 00:22:38.446
I think one of the other algorithm,

00:22:38.807 --> 00:22:40.029
you know, in inverted commas,

00:22:40.049 --> 00:22:41.593
the cultural algorithm that I talked about

00:22:41.633 --> 00:22:44.818
was this Dutch one where it talks about

00:22:45.420 --> 00:22:46.622
the dykes and...

00:22:48.753 --> 00:22:49.815
I've even forgotten the word,

00:22:50.496 --> 00:22:52.438
the way that they structure the landscape

00:22:52.478 --> 00:22:54.720
to make sure that the water stays out

00:22:54.759 --> 00:22:56.382
right because it's such low-lying land.

00:22:56.461 --> 00:22:59.184
And in order to do that,

00:22:59.244 --> 00:23:03.189
towns and villages and local people had to

00:23:03.229 --> 00:23:04.049
work together to do it,

00:23:04.130 --> 00:23:05.832
even if they would normally be feudal.

00:23:06.932 --> 00:23:08.594
And so this whole sense of consensus

00:23:08.634 --> 00:23:10.036
building is something that lives very,

00:23:10.056 --> 00:23:10.717
very deeply.

00:23:11.347 --> 00:23:14.272
in them so the people building you know

00:23:14.313 --> 00:23:16.115
who working within a team to build

00:23:16.154 --> 00:23:18.378
consensus versus a an autocratic group

00:23:18.439 --> 00:23:19.661
that will be like well the boss says

00:23:19.681 --> 00:23:21.163
this is the way we go we here's

00:23:21.182 --> 00:23:24.086
where we go like oh there's so much

00:23:24.166 --> 00:23:26.089
richness and all of the things that people

00:23:26.130 --> 00:23:27.211
bring to the work

00:23:27.760 --> 00:23:29.221
and being able to see that and have

00:23:29.261 --> 00:23:30.642
your team be able to see that and

00:23:30.662 --> 00:23:31.643
be able to leverage that.

00:23:31.663 --> 00:23:33.544
It's just, it's so powerful.

00:23:34.023 --> 00:23:34.584
Yeah.

00:23:34.604 --> 00:23:35.724
I just want everybody to do it.

00:23:35.744 --> 00:23:37.925
I want my workplace to do it.

00:23:38.006 --> 00:23:40.307
I mean, I, I, I agree.

00:23:40.467 --> 00:23:42.567
And I, I think that it's important too,

00:23:42.587 --> 00:23:43.448
because there's so much,

00:23:43.468 --> 00:23:46.470
there's also like data about how diverse

00:23:46.490 --> 00:23:48.309
teams are just more productive.

00:23:48.590 --> 00:23:50.270
But to your point at the top of

00:23:50.290 --> 00:23:51.652
the episode, we're like,

00:23:52.260 --> 00:23:54.142
there's so much pressure to conform to

00:23:54.162 --> 00:23:54.721
those groups.

00:23:54.741 --> 00:23:55.142
It's like,

00:23:55.241 --> 00:23:58.604
unless you are intentionally allowing for

00:23:58.683 --> 00:24:01.404
and respecting these diverse voices that

00:24:01.444 --> 00:24:03.945
maybe you are making hiring intentionally

00:24:04.066 --> 00:24:06.647
for those diverse perspectives,

00:24:06.748 --> 00:24:08.347
if you are then expecting them to just

00:24:08.367 --> 00:24:10.669
conform to the rest of the company culture

00:24:10.709 --> 00:24:12.250
or whatever into this melting pot,

00:24:12.630 --> 00:24:14.790
then you're not really going to get the

00:24:14.871 --> 00:24:15.432
benefit,

00:24:16.531 --> 00:24:19.733
the full benefit of having these disparate

00:24:19.753 --> 00:24:20.374
voices.

00:24:20.394 --> 00:24:20.493
Yeah.

00:24:20.906 --> 00:24:21.007
Well,

00:24:21.027 --> 00:24:23.248
it's hiring for skill is that people are,

00:24:23.307 --> 00:24:25.189
or can they do the skills or,

00:24:25.269 --> 00:24:26.789
and hiring for cultural fit?

00:24:27.329 --> 00:24:28.290
What is co you know,

00:24:28.471 --> 00:24:30.031
and there are a lot, you can read.

00:24:30.092 --> 00:24:31.772
Generally just means you're hiring to be

00:24:31.792 --> 00:24:33.294
a, a homogenous.

00:24:34.094 --> 00:24:34.834
Exactly that.

00:24:34.913 --> 00:24:35.535
Exactly that.

00:24:36.914 --> 00:24:37.675
I mean, it's, I,

00:24:38.476 --> 00:24:41.798
I think I understand there's a,

00:24:41.917 --> 00:24:44.578
an efficiency or a perceived efficiency

00:24:44.720 --> 00:24:45.839
of, well, if we've got people,

00:24:45.940 --> 00:24:47.080
we know we can just drop them right

00:24:47.101 --> 00:24:47.221
in.

00:24:47.560 --> 00:24:48.801
They're gonna be able to do the work

00:24:48.842 --> 00:24:49.342
immediately.

00:24:49.646 --> 00:24:52.288
They're going to be able to, you know,

00:24:52.308 --> 00:24:53.650
just kind of fit in and go with

00:24:53.670 --> 00:24:54.250
the flow.

00:24:56.011 --> 00:24:57.374
There's an efficiency to that, right?

00:24:57.394 --> 00:24:58.473
They just hit the ground running.

00:24:58.534 --> 00:25:01.037
We can get more output more quickly.

00:25:01.557 --> 00:25:03.898
But it's like, what are you losing?

00:25:03.959 --> 00:25:05.579
What if there was just that little bit

00:25:05.619 --> 00:25:07.682
more time to actually be able to evaluate

00:25:07.701 --> 00:25:09.483
people and what are they going to add?

00:25:09.584 --> 00:25:11.184
What are some of our other problems?

00:25:11.244 --> 00:25:11.525
You know,

00:25:13.247 --> 00:25:15.409
just having that kind of bigger picture.

00:25:15.788 --> 00:25:17.450
But we live in a culture where,

00:25:18.307 --> 00:25:18.887
Generally,

00:25:19.407 --> 00:25:22.111
in this kind of work culture where we

00:25:22.171 --> 00:25:22.971
need to be efficient,

00:25:23.011 --> 00:25:24.212
we need to be able to, you know,

00:25:24.232 --> 00:25:26.434
there's this constant pressure to save on

00:25:26.494 --> 00:25:28.856
time, be more billable,

00:25:29.017 --> 00:25:29.978
all those kinds of things.

00:25:30.178 --> 00:25:32.099
And so efficiency, I think,

00:25:32.160 --> 00:25:34.702
is what probably drives a lot of that.

00:25:34.722 --> 00:25:35.864
Yeah.

00:25:37.744 --> 00:25:39.086
Switching gears a little bit,

00:25:39.766 --> 00:25:43.367
you're also involved in WPincludes.

00:25:43.387 --> 00:25:44.808
I am.

00:25:44.828 --> 00:25:46.650
For anyone who doesn't know,

00:25:46.750 --> 00:25:48.270
which might be a lot of people who

00:25:48.330 --> 00:25:49.830
are listening to this or watching this,

00:25:50.311 --> 00:25:52.853
what is WPincludes?

00:25:53.752 --> 00:25:54.753
WPincludes,

00:25:55.273 --> 00:25:58.256
which you can find at wpincludes.me.

00:25:59.411 --> 00:26:02.173
is a mentoring initiative that is geared

00:26:02.232 --> 00:26:06.696
towards pairing women leaders with women

00:26:06.717 --> 00:26:08.778
who want to be in leadership in WordPress

00:26:08.798 --> 00:26:10.400
companies.

00:26:11.240 --> 00:26:15.324
If anybody saw Siobhan McKeown and I talk

00:26:15.384 --> 00:26:16.845
at WordCamp Europe in Torino,

00:26:16.884 --> 00:26:19.647
we did a kind of Q&A conversation around

00:26:20.468 --> 00:26:22.309
The results of a survey that we did

00:26:22.349 --> 00:26:24.852
to see how many women are in leadership,

00:26:24.873 --> 00:26:26.034
particularly in the C-suite,

00:26:26.473 --> 00:26:28.576
in WordPress companies.

00:26:29.376 --> 00:26:30.958
And the numbers are very low.

00:26:31.278 --> 00:26:33.220
They are disproportionately low in

00:26:33.279 --> 00:26:36.403
comparison with C-suites in other tech

00:26:36.503 --> 00:26:37.625
industries.

00:26:37.644 --> 00:26:39.046
We talked a little bit about why that

00:26:39.086 --> 00:26:39.546
might be.

00:26:39.747 --> 00:26:41.728
A lot of the early WordPress companies

00:26:41.788 --> 00:26:43.009
were founded by men.

00:26:43.750 --> 00:26:46.291
um and and and we see a lot

00:26:46.332 --> 00:26:47.992
of those leaders are still leading you

00:26:48.012 --> 00:26:50.173
know these large wordpress companies what

00:26:50.193 --> 00:26:51.734
it was wordpress now twenty years or

00:26:51.775 --> 00:26:53.536
fifteen years later just as those

00:26:53.576 --> 00:26:58.378
companies have grown and so uh siobhan and

00:26:58.479 --> 00:27:00.680
francesca morano uh started this

00:27:00.740 --> 00:27:03.101
initiative and then i kind of managed to

00:27:03.461 --> 00:27:05.462
scooch in on their coattails and i'm

00:27:05.502 --> 00:27:06.303
helping kind of

00:27:08.479 --> 00:27:10.119
and we're just about to go into our

00:27:10.160 --> 00:27:13.823
third cohort of mentors and mentees.

00:27:13.863 --> 00:27:15.503
And it's kind of a,

00:27:15.523 --> 00:27:17.045
we kind of run it over a sort

00:27:17.085 --> 00:27:19.906
of three-month period where the mentors

00:27:19.946 --> 00:27:21.347
and mentees just get together and talk

00:27:21.367 --> 00:27:21.627
through.

00:27:21.647 --> 00:27:24.670
So it's almost this coaching element of

00:27:25.109 --> 00:27:27.451
trying to get more and more women with

00:27:27.511 --> 00:27:29.012
being able to focus and set their

00:27:29.053 --> 00:27:31.734
intentions and their direction and be

00:27:31.795 --> 00:27:33.655
supported in this community of women who

00:27:33.695 --> 00:27:36.857
want to see more and more women become

00:27:37.719 --> 00:27:38.019
leaders,

00:27:38.720 --> 00:27:40.381
and be kind of released into some of

00:27:40.421 --> 00:27:42.943
these areas that they might not feel at

00:27:42.963 --> 00:27:44.744
this point that they are ready for.

00:27:44.904 --> 00:27:46.446
So it's just this really great supportive

00:27:46.507 --> 00:27:51.510
group of women helping women and

00:27:51.931 --> 00:27:54.973
non-binary or, yeah, so underrepresented.

00:27:56.855 --> 00:27:58.757
Is it one mentor to one mentee that

00:27:58.777 --> 00:27:59.657
you're working with at a time?

00:27:59.678 --> 00:28:00.999
Yeah, yeah, so...

00:28:03.593 --> 00:28:04.575
So it's great.

00:28:04.634 --> 00:28:06.518
You start to build this relationship.

00:28:06.557 --> 00:28:08.240
And certainly for me,

00:28:08.279 --> 00:28:11.464
the relationships have been ongoing after

00:28:11.484 --> 00:28:13.868
the cohort officially ends.

00:28:14.635 --> 00:28:15.476
Yeah,

00:28:16.036 --> 00:28:18.156
talk a little bit more about that because

00:28:18.196 --> 00:28:19.057
from what I have heard,

00:28:22.417 --> 00:28:26.818
the process or the act of mentoring or

00:28:26.939 --> 00:28:32.759
being mentored, it's not a top-down thing.

00:28:32.779 --> 00:28:34.181
It's really sort of a collaboration and

00:28:34.240 --> 00:28:38.221
each person learns from the experience.

00:28:38.342 --> 00:28:39.701
What has that experience been like for

00:28:39.721 --> 00:28:39.862
you?

00:28:41.771 --> 00:28:43.613
I have loved it.

00:28:45.673 --> 00:28:49.596
So I've probably had more contact or

00:28:49.615 --> 00:28:53.037
ongoing contact with one of my mentors

00:28:53.096 --> 00:28:56.138
than the other, which is, you know,

00:28:56.179 --> 00:28:57.278
just the way that life goes,

00:28:57.338 --> 00:28:57.878
I would say.

00:28:58.019 --> 00:29:00.721
I think what people bring to it will

00:29:00.760 --> 00:29:02.961
certainly inform what they get out of it

00:29:05.042 --> 00:29:07.103
and what they contribute and how that

00:29:07.143 --> 00:29:08.324
conversation goes,

00:29:08.923 --> 00:29:10.144
I think certainly informs

00:29:11.411 --> 00:29:13.291
the kind of results that you will get.

00:29:13.492 --> 00:29:17.954
I think one of my mentees has already

00:29:18.155 --> 00:29:21.196
shifted gears, has gone,

00:29:21.458 --> 00:29:23.778
is already taking on more leadership

00:29:24.318 --> 00:29:26.500
within her current role and is ambitious

00:29:26.661 --> 00:29:27.221
for more.

00:29:27.401 --> 00:29:28.862
And so a lot of the conversations have

00:29:28.902 --> 00:29:29.542
been around, okay,

00:29:29.563 --> 00:29:31.203
so here's where I'm positioned now.

00:29:31.304 --> 00:29:32.525
What are the things that I need to

00:29:32.924 --> 00:29:35.426
adopt and grow into so that I'm ready

00:29:35.987 --> 00:29:37.347
when opportunities come up?

00:29:37.667 --> 00:29:40.210
And I can very much see that happening.

00:29:40.890 --> 00:29:43.171
those opportunities will come up for her.

00:29:43.191 --> 00:29:44.391
She's amazing.

00:29:46.352 --> 00:29:50.192
But for me personally, I think, I mean,

00:29:50.232 --> 00:29:51.212
I think one of the things that I

00:29:51.252 --> 00:29:53.473
learned when I was in, you know,

00:29:53.513 --> 00:29:55.413
leading the project managers at Human Made

00:29:55.453 --> 00:29:56.114
for a while there,

00:29:57.275 --> 00:29:58.934
or managing the project managers,

00:29:59.355 --> 00:30:01.655
the actually,

00:30:02.215 --> 00:30:04.076
like the stuff that sets me on fire

00:30:04.116 --> 00:30:05.416
is that sense of coaching,

00:30:05.957 --> 00:30:07.917
of helping people see what they already

00:30:07.958 --> 00:30:09.077
know and understand and

00:30:09.403 --> 00:30:11.505
in themselves and releasing that and then

00:30:11.565 --> 00:30:14.888
having seen seeing them kind of be able

00:30:14.929 --> 00:30:17.030
to fight the imposter really and gain that

00:30:17.071 --> 00:30:19.733
confidence that oh there's nothing

00:30:19.855 --> 00:30:22.457
actually stopping me from going into

00:30:22.718 --> 00:30:25.441
greater leadership here it's my brain or

00:30:25.480 --> 00:30:28.344
it's my attitude or it's the this imposter

00:30:28.364 --> 00:30:28.683
that's

00:30:29.986 --> 00:30:31.807
And being able to just kind of pull

00:30:31.826 --> 00:30:32.548
back that curtain.

00:30:32.807 --> 00:30:34.769
And it's all just a case of asking

00:30:34.788 --> 00:30:36.809
the questions that help them see that.

00:30:36.869 --> 00:30:39.852
But it's like, that's so good.

00:30:40.352 --> 00:30:42.053
So I highly recommend anybody who has the

00:30:42.073 --> 00:30:44.513
opportunity to sign up when the form goes

00:30:44.554 --> 00:30:45.654
live for the next cohort.

00:30:46.695 --> 00:30:48.076
Absolutely get yourselves in there if

00:30:48.135 --> 00:30:49.396
that's the kind of thing that you're

00:30:50.038 --> 00:30:51.597
wanting to do.

00:30:51.637 --> 00:30:53.579
We do a survey of the mentors online.

00:30:54.519 --> 00:30:56.040
afterwards and do you want to do this

00:30:56.080 --> 00:30:57.843
again and it's usually a pretty much a

00:30:57.903 --> 00:31:00.464
resounding yes because I think the mentors

00:31:00.505 --> 00:31:02.086
get as much out of it as well

00:31:02.145 --> 00:31:03.727
not just because we really want to see

00:31:03.767 --> 00:31:06.828
this community you know see that balance

00:31:06.970 --> 00:31:09.391
shift in a positive direction but also

00:31:09.451 --> 00:31:11.373
because it's such a great experience to

00:31:11.452 --> 00:31:15.976
see people that you've had input into

00:31:16.016 --> 00:31:18.038
start to see their value and start to

00:31:18.218 --> 00:31:21.019
get excited about opportunities and start

00:31:21.039 --> 00:31:22.080
to take opportunities

00:31:23.531 --> 00:31:28.275
I saw a thing recently referencing

00:31:28.494 --> 00:31:32.477
imposter syndrome made me remember this

00:31:32.497 --> 00:31:34.298
thing that I saw recently that was talking

00:31:34.338 --> 00:31:34.979
about how

00:31:35.890 --> 00:31:39.353
the concept of imposter syndrome

00:31:39.573 --> 00:31:45.297
originates from something that came during

00:31:45.557 --> 00:31:47.858
like women's liberation movements and

00:31:47.919 --> 00:31:49.460
things where like women were starting to

00:31:49.480 --> 00:31:54.544
get more uh voice uh more power in

00:31:54.784 --> 00:31:59.386
in various circles as as because like

00:32:00.248 --> 00:32:04.210
the dominant male culture uh was basically

00:32:04.270 --> 00:32:08.692
like finding reasons for those things to

00:32:08.732 --> 00:32:10.733
not be true or something and so it

00:32:10.794 --> 00:32:12.214
so it comes out it has this like

00:32:12.255 --> 00:32:15.356
quasi scientific medical sort of sounding

00:32:15.436 --> 00:32:19.799
name uh sounds like a problem uh but

00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:22.501
but it has these roots in like the

00:32:22.582 --> 00:32:24.682
feminist movement really uh which i

00:32:24.722 --> 00:32:27.644
thought was was was really interesting and

00:32:27.684 --> 00:32:29.165
not something that i had encountered

00:32:29.205 --> 00:32:29.506
before

00:32:30.357 --> 00:32:32.118
so were they saying that the roots were

00:32:32.318 --> 00:32:34.299
in pushback against the feminist movement

00:32:34.319 --> 00:32:38.542
yes yes yeah yeah i'm not surprised right

00:32:38.583 --> 00:32:41.644
for sure right yeah yeah but it's

00:32:41.684 --> 00:32:43.425
interesting that like women go oh i just

00:32:43.445 --> 00:32:44.605
had this terrible problem with the

00:32:44.625 --> 00:32:46.768
imposter syndrome whether that without

00:32:46.847 --> 00:32:47.428
actually going

00:32:49.153 --> 00:32:50.474
I really want to use a word that

00:32:50.494 --> 00:32:51.154
I shouldn't use here,

00:32:51.174 --> 00:32:52.595
so I'm talking myself out of it.

00:32:52.894 --> 00:32:53.935
But without going,

00:32:54.496 --> 00:32:56.736
it's the patriarchy that's actually put

00:32:56.776 --> 00:32:58.336
this problem in my head at the moment

00:32:58.436 --> 00:32:59.416
and actually going, hang on,

00:32:59.457 --> 00:33:00.257
let me just see.

00:33:00.298 --> 00:33:02.938
This is actually a non-problem because

00:33:02.958 --> 00:33:04.019
this is something that's imposed

00:33:04.058 --> 00:33:04.578
externally.

00:33:04.618 --> 00:33:05.818
It's not, you know,

00:33:06.900 --> 00:33:08.500
and so that you actually have to talk

00:33:08.519 --> 00:33:11.080
yourself around and away from that sense

00:33:11.101 --> 00:33:12.141
of that voice in your head,

00:33:12.181 --> 00:33:14.182
which is that we call the imposter.

00:33:14.201 --> 00:33:14.862
And it's like, hang on.

00:33:15.362 --> 00:33:17.383
This is societal expectations that have

00:33:17.403 --> 00:33:18.183
been placed on me.

00:33:18.243 --> 00:33:20.164
This is absolutely nothing to do with,

00:33:20.884 --> 00:33:22.846
you know, I belong here.

00:33:22.865 --> 00:33:23.365
Because, you know,

00:33:23.405 --> 00:33:24.606
that's what the imposter is saying all the

00:33:24.626 --> 00:33:24.747
time.

00:33:24.826 --> 00:33:26.186
Or you're not quite ready.

00:33:26.267 --> 00:33:27.147
Or you're not, you know.

00:33:27.228 --> 00:33:31.930
And it's actually, you do and you are.

00:33:33.050 --> 00:33:34.090
Yeah.

00:33:34.111 --> 00:33:35.932
And lean into that rather than the other.

00:33:36.531 --> 00:33:37.292
And I...

00:33:38.068 --> 00:33:40.390
I mean, again, like I,

00:33:41.049 --> 00:33:43.250
last I checked him cis white male,

00:33:43.270 --> 00:33:44.711
but I've also experienced imposter

00:33:44.751 --> 00:33:45.551
syndrome, but the,

00:33:45.732 --> 00:33:47.452
the idea that like that experience, like,

00:33:47.532 --> 00:33:48.594
I don't know that I even would have

00:33:48.653 --> 00:33:50.275
considered, um,

00:33:50.315 --> 00:33:52.375
that my experience of imposter syndrome

00:33:52.715 --> 00:33:55.537
would be distinctly different and like

00:33:55.757 --> 00:33:58.458
separate from your experience of imposter

00:33:58.498 --> 00:33:58.818
syndrome,

00:33:58.838 --> 00:34:01.619
just because of like what imposter means

00:34:01.660 --> 00:34:03.861
to me based on my privilege and all

00:34:03.881 --> 00:34:05.240
of the things that go along with what

00:34:05.582 --> 00:34:06.221
this is.

00:34:06.622 --> 00:34:08.584
is different than all of the same things

00:34:08.624 --> 00:34:11.925
for for you yeah it's such an interesting

00:34:12.145 --> 00:34:14.748
it's oh i mean there are so many

00:34:14.788 --> 00:34:16.950
avenues to explore in all of these areas

00:34:17.009 --> 00:34:20.633
right it's like you you know we've talked

00:34:20.673 --> 00:34:22.673
about culture and race and we've talked

00:34:22.693 --> 00:34:28.478
about um gender and and that but this

00:34:28.498 --> 00:34:33.481
okay where are you going okay okay just

00:34:33.501 --> 00:34:34.882
don't stand on the keyboard thank you very

00:34:34.902 --> 00:34:35.643
much um

00:34:38.034 --> 00:34:40.795
It's all, you know,

00:34:41.036 --> 00:34:43.677
it's the core thread through all of these

00:34:43.717 --> 00:34:45.177
things is the othering, right,

00:34:45.197 --> 00:34:49.181
is the someone that is different from me.

00:34:50.041 --> 00:34:53.143
I need to protect myself or my position.

00:34:53.422 --> 00:34:58.045
And so all of these areas where there

00:34:58.106 --> 00:35:01.288
is privilege that whichever dynamic we are

00:35:01.387 --> 00:35:04.570
fighting against or being resisted by,

00:35:05.329 --> 00:35:06.610
comes down to this, oh, well,

00:35:06.650 --> 00:35:08.391
I've got something to protect here and

00:35:08.572 --> 00:35:10.753
others need to stay away.

00:35:11.534 --> 00:35:16.938
And it's infuriating because it's like,

00:35:17.018 --> 00:35:20.782
if everybody could just see just the value

00:35:21.021 --> 00:35:24.764
and that there is enough, there is enough.

00:35:25.164 --> 00:35:25.385
I mean,

00:35:25.465 --> 00:35:27.146
one of the things that I absolutely love

00:35:27.166 --> 00:35:28.266
about the WordPress community,

00:35:28.286 --> 00:35:29.628
and it's something I think my first

00:35:29.688 --> 00:35:30.208
WordCamp

00:35:31.586 --> 00:35:34.856
was WordCamp Gold Coast in two thousand

00:35:35.077 --> 00:35:35.699
and eleven.

00:35:36.320 --> 00:35:36.722
So what's that?

00:35:36.742 --> 00:35:38.407
Fifteen years ago, fourteen years ago.

00:35:39.710 --> 00:35:44.331
Um, and I, I heard somebody casually say,

00:35:44.570 --> 00:35:47.072
isn't it wild that here we all are

00:35:47.172 --> 00:35:50.873
competitors effectively in an environment.

00:35:51.393 --> 00:35:53.634
And it doesn't feel like that at all.

00:35:53.693 --> 00:35:54.753
And I think that is one of the

00:35:54.793 --> 00:35:57.775
things that has kind of ha one of

00:35:57.815 --> 00:35:59.494
the threads that's kind of pulled me into

00:35:59.534 --> 00:36:01.635
this and why so many of my friends

00:36:01.655 --> 00:36:03.597
are here and why I've pulled friends into

00:36:03.637 --> 00:36:05.356
the WordPress community.

00:36:05.597 --> 00:36:08.818
And, um, cause that sense of.

00:36:11.349 --> 00:36:12.630
we're all, there's enough,

00:36:13.050 --> 00:36:14.690
there's enough in this community.

00:36:14.972 --> 00:36:15.632
There's enough.

00:36:16.331 --> 00:36:16.952
And I think some,

00:36:17.012 --> 00:36:18.673
I guess some of the dynamics of the

00:36:19.114 --> 00:36:21.815
past twelve months have suggested perhaps

00:36:21.856 --> 00:36:22.396
there isn't.

00:36:22.456 --> 00:36:25.717
And I'm like, but there is.

00:36:25.978 --> 00:36:26.679
Yeah.

00:36:26.778 --> 00:36:27.079
Yeah.

00:36:27.139 --> 00:36:27.739
There's enough.

00:36:28.280 --> 00:36:30.521
And this whole sense of, you know, well,

00:36:30.581 --> 00:36:31.322
if I,

00:36:31.621 --> 00:36:35.085
I'm trying to protect my corner and the

00:36:35.105 --> 00:36:36.726
way that I'm going to do that is

00:36:37.085 --> 00:36:38.646
by, um,

00:36:40.494 --> 00:36:43.737
Yeah, is exclusionary.

00:36:44.516 --> 00:36:45.557
It's disappointing to me.

00:36:45.577 --> 00:36:45.657
Yeah.

00:36:47.298 --> 00:36:47.498
Yeah,

00:36:47.559 --> 00:36:52.242
when I flipped over to Blue Sky as

00:36:52.342 --> 00:36:54.663
the place that I go other than the

00:36:54.702 --> 00:36:55.443
thing,

00:36:55.503 --> 00:36:58.405
the platform formerly known as Twitter,

00:37:00.005 --> 00:37:01.306
one of my first,

00:37:01.327 --> 00:37:02.967
and I still don't know what they're

00:37:02.987 --> 00:37:03.367
called,

00:37:03.688 --> 00:37:04.469
so I'm just going to call it a

00:37:04.509 --> 00:37:04.869
bloot.

00:37:07.030 --> 00:37:07.811
My first bloot,

00:37:07.851 --> 00:37:09.170
one of my first bloots was...

00:37:12.135 --> 00:37:16.016
Equity does not mean you don't like

00:37:16.056 --> 00:37:17.637
someone else is getting your piece of the

00:37:17.677 --> 00:37:19.318
pie or a bigger piece of the pie.

00:37:19.498 --> 00:37:20.918
Equity is saying, Hey,

00:37:21.518 --> 00:37:22.878
there's pie over here.

00:37:23.358 --> 00:37:24.239
Do you want some?

00:37:24.699 --> 00:37:25.159
Yeah.

00:37:25.418 --> 00:37:25.878
Yeah.

00:37:26.378 --> 00:37:26.739
Yeah.

00:37:29.000 --> 00:37:30.480
I wish more people could say that.

00:37:30.900 --> 00:37:32.021
Yeah.

00:37:32.280 --> 00:37:32.440
Um,

00:37:34.862 --> 00:37:36.744
Yeah, my brain,

00:37:37.105 --> 00:37:38.405
I had a thing I was going to

00:37:38.445 --> 00:37:39.226
say besides that,

00:37:39.567 --> 00:37:40.768
but now it's completely escaped.

00:37:40.969 --> 00:37:42.190
But what I will say, oh, no,

00:37:42.650 --> 00:37:43.010
I remember.

00:37:43.030 --> 00:37:43.951
We were talking about competitors.

00:37:43.971 --> 00:37:45.452
You were mentioning that the WordPress

00:37:45.472 --> 00:37:47.514
community and a room full of competitors,

00:37:47.534 --> 00:37:48.394
but it doesn't feel that way.

00:37:48.795 --> 00:37:50.757
One of the first guests that were on

00:37:50.858 --> 00:37:52.920
this show was Roger,

00:37:53.500 --> 00:37:55.762
who is chief something or other,

00:37:55.842 --> 00:37:57.463
head of something or other at Kinsta.

00:37:58.123 --> 00:38:00.125
um and i work at pantheon and ostensibly

00:38:00.164 --> 00:38:03.467
we are like competitors um and like this

00:38:03.507 --> 00:38:05.427
isn't a pantheon show or anything but like

00:38:06.528 --> 00:38:08.028
there was a little bit of uh i

00:38:08.048 --> 00:38:10.630
felt trepidation from him especially since

00:38:10.650 --> 00:38:11.771
there's like one of the first episodes

00:38:12.192 --> 00:38:14.893
just like is it okay like oh we

00:38:14.913 --> 00:38:16.474
even we invited that's what it was like

00:38:16.534 --> 00:38:19.195
we invited him um we were at when

00:38:19.215 --> 00:38:20.635
we were at word camp us uh we

00:38:20.675 --> 00:38:23.797
had a video crew at our pantheon booth

00:38:24.297 --> 00:38:26.199
and we were doing these things called web

00:38:26.260 --> 00:38:26.860
sessions,

00:38:27.221 --> 00:38:28.862
which actually are starting to go up on

00:38:28.882 --> 00:38:29.543
the internet now,

00:38:30.443 --> 00:38:31.844
where we were interviewing people and

00:38:31.884 --> 00:38:33.485
basically asking what makes the web work.

00:38:33.525 --> 00:38:33.925
And I thought,

00:38:33.965 --> 00:38:36.188
because I had just had a recording with

00:38:36.268 --> 00:38:38.449
Roger on my podcast, I'm like,

00:38:38.489 --> 00:38:39.371
he would be a great person.

00:38:39.431 --> 00:38:40.110
He's here in the room.

00:38:40.150 --> 00:38:41.092
I can just go over there and grab

00:38:41.112 --> 00:38:41.992
him and sit him down.

00:38:42.773 --> 00:38:43.114
And he's like,

00:38:43.753 --> 00:38:45.094
is it okay that I have a Kinsta

00:38:45.114 --> 00:38:45.315
shirt?

00:38:45.335 --> 00:38:45.675
I'm like,

00:38:45.976 --> 00:38:46.797
We don't care.

00:38:46.856 --> 00:38:49.920
Like, we are, like, this is not, that's,

00:38:50.001 --> 00:38:50.902
yeah, there's enough.

00:38:50.963 --> 00:38:51.163
Like,

00:38:51.463 --> 00:38:53.626
the people that are interested in Kinsta

00:38:53.666 --> 00:38:55.168
might not be interested in Pantheon,

00:38:55.288 --> 00:38:56.268
and the people that are interested in

00:38:56.289 --> 00:38:57.230
Pantheon might not be interested in

00:38:57.250 --> 00:38:57.510
Kinsta,

00:38:57.570 --> 00:38:58.791
and the people that are interested in both

00:38:58.851 --> 00:38:59.733
might be interested in both,

00:38:59.753 --> 00:39:01.516
and they want to know what the best

00:39:01.556 --> 00:39:02.737
thing out of both things is.

00:39:02.856 --> 00:39:03.257
Like, that's okay.

00:39:03.277 --> 00:39:03.378
Yeah.

00:39:03.398 --> 00:39:04.880
Yeah.

00:39:07.594 --> 00:39:09.934
it's interesting because the company that

00:39:09.974 --> 00:39:11.916
I work for is a craft CMS shop.

00:39:12.496 --> 00:39:15.079
So I left human made and joined them

00:39:15.840 --> 00:39:17.400
two and a half, nearly three years ago.

00:39:18.121 --> 00:39:19.362
And so that's been an interesting

00:39:19.422 --> 00:39:21.184
experience is kind of looking at other

00:39:21.324 --> 00:39:21.844
communities.

00:39:21.864 --> 00:39:22.304
It's very,

00:39:22.324 --> 00:39:24.525
very different community than WordPress.

00:39:24.686 --> 00:39:25.746
It's open source,

00:39:25.786 --> 00:39:29.030
but yet still very much made,

00:39:29.210 --> 00:39:31.452
owned and operated by Pixel and Tonic,

00:39:31.472 --> 00:39:32.693
the company behind it.

00:39:34.494 --> 00:39:36.414
And, you know,

00:39:36.494 --> 00:39:38.896
people's attitudes around WordPress is

00:39:38.936 --> 00:39:40.577
very different sometimes in the craft

00:39:40.597 --> 00:39:41.179
community.

00:39:43.320 --> 00:39:44.521
And, you know,

00:39:45.101 --> 00:39:46.963
the things that make craft craft are

00:39:47.003 --> 00:39:48.423
different than the things that make

00:39:48.724 --> 00:39:49.664
WordPress WordPress.

00:39:49.864 --> 00:39:51.806
And there's been some tension around that

00:39:51.847 --> 00:39:52.927
for me sometimes,

00:39:53.487 --> 00:39:54.929
particularly because I am still such an

00:39:54.989 --> 00:39:56.829
ardent supporter and enthusiast for

00:39:56.989 --> 00:39:57.391
WordPress.

00:39:58.251 --> 00:39:58.972
But it's been,

00:40:01.956 --> 00:40:04.400
I have a client that has worked with

00:40:04.481 --> 00:40:04.702
us,

00:40:05.061 --> 00:40:07.105
had gone to WordPress and is coming back

00:40:07.164 --> 00:40:08.807
to us, not specifically to craft,

00:40:09.088 --> 00:40:10.891
but I'm actually starting to see more

00:40:10.931 --> 00:40:11.853
WordPress clients.

00:40:14.833 --> 00:40:18.635
websites in our portfolio and so I'm

00:40:18.655 --> 00:40:22.074
quietly loving the fact that that we now

00:40:22.215 --> 00:40:24.655
we have you know I'm sure my boss

00:40:24.675 --> 00:40:27.217
is probably not keen that I am publicizing

00:40:27.257 --> 00:40:29.157
that there's more WordPress in our in our

00:40:29.197 --> 00:40:30.978
portfolio because we are such an ardent

00:40:31.018 --> 00:40:31.818
craft shop but

00:40:32.137 --> 00:40:34.360
um it's quite fun to be for me

00:40:34.420 --> 00:40:35.643
now to be able to kind of jump

00:40:35.682 --> 00:40:38.005
back in to a little bit more wordpress

00:40:38.045 --> 00:40:39.347
and be back in the back end of

00:40:39.387 --> 00:40:41.050
wordpress other than just on my own site

00:40:41.070 --> 00:40:43.833
which of course is still um you know

00:40:43.873 --> 00:40:47.038
wordpress built but not published too very

00:40:47.077 --> 00:40:48.440
often at all anymore but um

00:40:49.340 --> 00:40:50.121
But, yeah,

00:40:50.940 --> 00:40:52.782
that's been an interesting dynamic is

00:40:52.862 --> 00:40:58.367
actually seeing how other CMSs work.

00:40:58.407 --> 00:40:59.086
I mean, of course,

00:40:59.208 --> 00:41:00.027
for a lot of the case,

00:41:00.047 --> 00:41:01.369
they all do the same thing.

00:41:02.889 --> 00:41:04.931
But also seeing how other communities

00:41:04.972 --> 00:41:05.231
work.

00:41:05.753 --> 00:41:06.052
Yes.

00:41:07.030 --> 00:41:09.032
And I actually just spent the last two

00:41:09.072 --> 00:41:11.132
days in the Tessitura community.

00:41:12.012 --> 00:41:12.992
I don't know if you're familiar with

00:41:13.032 --> 00:41:13.534
Tessitura.

00:41:13.653 --> 00:41:17.655
It's a software CRM slash ticketing thing

00:41:17.755 --> 00:41:19.715
for the arts and culture community.

00:41:20.215 --> 00:41:22.597
So that's been interesting, is seeing...

00:41:24.117 --> 00:41:26.659
how other communities function and i won't

00:41:26.679 --> 00:41:28.641
lie the tessitura conference there's a lot

00:41:28.661 --> 00:41:30.362
of content in there that is not really

00:41:30.443 --> 00:41:32.985
touching me i have a client that uses

00:41:33.065 --> 00:41:34.666
it and that's why i needed to be

00:41:34.706 --> 00:41:35.887
there to kind of and so i was

00:41:35.987 --> 00:41:37.387
there for some of the tech parts of

00:41:37.427 --> 00:41:39.909
it but it was really interesting being in

00:41:39.949 --> 00:41:43.612
a room full of theater nerds who are

00:41:43.713 --> 00:41:46.835
also and in some cases tech nerds as

00:41:46.876 --> 00:41:48.277
well and um

00:41:48.873 --> 00:41:49.193
Yeah,

00:41:49.213 --> 00:41:50.574
so I think one of the things that

00:41:50.635 --> 00:41:54.038
I really love is community, actually.

00:41:54.137 --> 00:41:56.280
And I'm not a super extroverted person.

00:41:56.360 --> 00:41:57.900
I can function very,

00:41:57.940 --> 00:42:00.463
very well and certainly present with

00:42:00.523 --> 00:42:01.123
extroversion,

00:42:01.204 --> 00:42:03.686
but for the two days I was getting

00:42:03.726 --> 00:42:04.567
home at the end of the day and

00:42:04.586 --> 00:42:05.947
I'm like, oh, I'm all peopled out.

00:42:06.347 --> 00:42:07.608
But what great people.

00:42:07.728 --> 00:42:09.490
Like I spent an hour sitting over lunch

00:42:09.530 --> 00:42:11.032
yesterday talking about musical theatre,

00:42:11.052 --> 00:42:13.052
which if anybody knows me knows that

00:42:13.092 --> 00:42:15.735
that's something that I absolutely adore.

00:42:16.586 --> 00:42:18.070
And so, yeah,

00:42:18.731 --> 00:42:20.012
I'm not sure where I was going with

00:42:20.032 --> 00:42:23.298
that other than there is that sense of

00:42:24.260 --> 00:42:27.365
enoughness in other communities, I think,

00:42:27.425 --> 00:42:27.686
as well.

00:42:28.512 --> 00:42:30.112
Yeah,

00:42:30.132 --> 00:42:33.074
I went to my first DrupalCon this year,

00:42:33.094 --> 00:42:34.655
and then I went to my first DrupalCamp

00:42:34.815 --> 00:42:35.556
this year as well.

00:42:35.856 --> 00:42:36.617
What's the difference?

00:42:37.018 --> 00:42:39.139
Well, I'll tell you.

00:42:39.159 --> 00:42:41.581
DrupalCon is the big event.

00:42:41.601 --> 00:42:43.621
So there's DrupalCon in Atlanta.

00:42:44.282 --> 00:42:46.123
The tickets were like a thousand bucks a

00:42:46.164 --> 00:42:47.704
head.

00:42:47.925 --> 00:42:50.166
It's the big industry event.

00:42:52.088 --> 00:42:55.931
and so it's it's comparable in scale and

00:42:56.012 --> 00:42:58.375
talk tracks and whatever to uh the

00:42:58.414 --> 00:43:00.677
flagship word camp so word camp us

00:43:00.697 --> 00:43:04.320
whatever uh and drupal camps are much much

00:43:04.360 --> 00:43:06.862
much smaller um and those are the local

00:43:06.943 --> 00:43:09.085
community things yeah so that's more like

00:43:09.144 --> 00:43:11.246
the your your local word camp whatever

00:43:11.266 --> 00:43:12.228
right um

00:43:13.143 --> 00:43:14.242
So I went to Bad Camp,

00:43:14.302 --> 00:43:15.603
which is Bay Area Drupal Camp,

00:43:16.483 --> 00:43:18.724
which also has probably the coolest Drupal

00:43:18.744 --> 00:43:19.304
Camp name.

00:43:20.304 --> 00:43:21.204
I'm like,

00:43:21.224 --> 00:43:23.246
that's just one letter away from Band

00:43:23.286 --> 00:43:23.525
Camp.

00:43:23.626 --> 00:43:24.126
I love that.

00:43:26.427 --> 00:43:29.228
And I was presenting at Bad Camp,

00:43:29.288 --> 00:43:29.648
actually.

00:43:30.708 --> 00:43:33.869
And I went to DrupalCon in Atlanta this

00:43:33.889 --> 00:43:34.409
last year.

00:43:35.489 --> 00:43:36.329
And I...

00:43:37.170 --> 00:43:40.353
it's very interesting being uh the word

00:43:40.413 --> 00:43:42.574
presser in the room full of drupal people

00:43:43.195 --> 00:43:47.518
right but also one of the things that

00:43:47.858 --> 00:43:51.460
that jumped out to me immediately um at

00:43:51.481 --> 00:43:54.643
when i went to drupalcon was how much

00:43:54.923 --> 00:43:57.746
it didn't feel different like right it

00:43:57.985 --> 00:43:59.467
felt like like

00:44:00.708 --> 00:44:02.188
and I've said this before on the show,

00:44:04.108 --> 00:44:05.730
one of the first things that I saw

00:44:05.750 --> 00:44:06.869
when I got there was they had a

00:44:08.210 --> 00:44:09.550
panel thing with a bunch of different

00:44:09.590 --> 00:44:10.090
stickers,

00:44:10.550 --> 00:44:12.931
and one of the stickers is on the

00:44:12.952 --> 00:44:15.572
website, and it says, come for the code,

00:44:15.612 --> 00:44:16.952
stay for the community.

00:44:17.612 --> 00:44:20.893
And that was part of the inception process

00:44:20.934 --> 00:44:22.393
of how this podcast came to be,

00:44:22.713 --> 00:44:24.014
was just that idea.

00:44:24.494 --> 00:44:27.596
And the fact that that resonated so

00:44:27.635 --> 00:44:28.335
strongly to me

00:44:29.880 --> 00:44:31.702
from a completely different perspective.

00:44:32.621 --> 00:44:34.543
That is the reason why I have been

00:44:34.663 --> 00:44:36.384
in the WordPress community for as long as

00:44:36.463 --> 00:44:36.923
I have been.

00:44:37.143 --> 00:44:37.903
Exactly.

00:44:37.923 --> 00:44:39.005
Yeah, same.

00:44:39.445 --> 00:44:42.226
And so seeing that, oh,

00:44:42.286 --> 00:44:44.246
the Drupal community also has this thing.

00:44:44.266 --> 00:44:45.567
And then obviously over the course of the

00:44:45.586 --> 00:44:45.887
week,

00:44:45.947 --> 00:44:47.248
I got to talk to people and have

00:44:47.268 --> 00:44:48.027
these conversations.

00:44:48.827 --> 00:44:49.969
It really is like...

00:44:50.913 --> 00:44:53.193
We're all just people and this is all

00:44:53.233 --> 00:44:53.994
just software.

00:44:54.094 --> 00:44:54.875
And at the end of the day,

00:44:54.914 --> 00:44:57.335
we're doing the same things and more

00:44:57.356 --> 00:44:57.496
voices.

00:44:57.516 --> 00:44:57.615
Well,

00:44:57.655 --> 00:44:59.016
the stuff that endures is the people,

00:44:59.056 --> 00:44:59.335
right?

00:44:59.416 --> 00:44:59.817
Yes.

00:44:59.976 --> 00:45:00.137
Yeah.

00:45:00.217 --> 00:45:00.597
Yeah.

00:45:00.677 --> 00:45:02.438
And the things that we can learn from

00:45:02.498 --> 00:45:02.918
each other.

00:45:04.217 --> 00:45:05.398
And yeah.

00:45:05.418 --> 00:45:06.559
And I think that's kind of,

00:45:06.619 --> 00:45:07.519
I think that's kind of beautiful.

00:45:08.617 --> 00:45:09.056
I love that.

00:45:09.157 --> 00:45:11.018
I think one of the great shames for

00:45:11.038 --> 00:45:13.800
me that's kind of post COVID is that

00:45:13.960 --> 00:45:16.041
our local community has really,

00:45:16.081 --> 00:45:17.061
really struggled.

00:45:17.541 --> 00:45:20.242
Our local WordPress community has really,

00:45:20.262 --> 00:45:20.902
really struggled.

00:45:20.963 --> 00:45:22.603
And I was talking to the Tessitura or

00:45:22.643 --> 00:45:23.983
the group that I was sitting with at

00:45:24.003 --> 00:45:26.065
the Tessie conference yesterday and was

00:45:26.105 --> 00:45:28.467
talking about, so what are, you know,

00:45:28.547 --> 00:45:29.126
the community?

00:45:29.166 --> 00:45:30.668
So I'm sitting here going, oh my goodness,

00:45:30.708 --> 00:45:32.188
now I need to get back into choir.

00:45:32.228 --> 00:45:33.208
Like I haven't sung.

00:45:33.389 --> 00:45:34.849
I came to Australia to sing and I

00:45:34.889 --> 00:45:36.170
haven't sung really since I moved to

00:45:36.230 --> 00:45:36.849
Melbourne.

00:45:36.951 --> 00:45:37.731
It was about

00:45:38.331 --> 00:45:40.032
And, you know,

00:45:40.052 --> 00:45:41.112
I'm sitting there with all these people

00:45:41.132 --> 00:45:43.414
just buzzing with that energy of I need

00:45:43.454 --> 00:45:44.733
to be doing more of this.

00:45:44.934 --> 00:45:45.795
And, you know,

00:45:45.835 --> 00:45:47.335
generally sit in a tech conference and go,

00:45:47.356 --> 00:45:49.237
yeah, I really need to be singing.

00:45:49.277 --> 00:45:51.117
Anyway, apparently Tessitura has a choir,

00:45:51.938 --> 00:45:52.518
not in Melbourne.

00:45:52.597 --> 00:45:52.918
Anyway,

00:45:52.998 --> 00:45:54.498
the long story short is that they're

00:45:54.539 --> 00:45:56.119
struggling with some of those same things.

00:45:56.179 --> 00:45:56.320
Yes,

00:45:56.360 --> 00:45:59.521
they had a Tessitura meetup group that has

00:45:59.621 --> 00:46:01.222
just struggled.

00:46:01.762 --> 00:46:03.103
I mean, I think Melbourne has struggled.

00:46:03.143 --> 00:46:04.543
We were under lockdown for so long,

00:46:04.563 --> 00:46:06.184
and I think that has definitely impacted

00:46:06.224 --> 00:46:08.486
the psyche of the –

00:46:08.047 --> 00:46:09.634
But also because so many more people are

00:46:09.673 --> 00:46:09.956
remote,

00:46:09.996 --> 00:46:11.563
it's harder to get people out of their

00:46:11.583 --> 00:46:12.186
houses.

00:46:12.367 --> 00:46:12.487
Yeah.

00:46:13.050 --> 00:46:14.711
to an event now.

00:46:15.231 --> 00:46:16.773
And I think that's one of our,

00:46:16.813 --> 00:46:17.614
certainly locally,

00:46:17.713 --> 00:46:19.434
one of our great challenges as to how

00:46:19.474 --> 00:46:21.637
do we zhuzh that up.

00:46:22.056 --> 00:46:24.298
And part of it is also exhausted leaders

00:46:24.458 --> 00:46:26.639
and not finding any kind of rising leaders

00:46:26.659 --> 00:46:27.260
who are like, oh,

00:46:27.340 --> 00:46:30.543
I'll take that on and let's go for

00:46:30.643 --> 00:46:30.822
it.

00:46:30.922 --> 00:46:33.684
So that's one of my hopes that someone

00:46:33.724 --> 00:46:36.085
will rise up in Melbourne and go, yeah,

00:46:36.186 --> 00:46:36.867
I'm ready.

00:46:36.907 --> 00:46:39.208
Let's do things because I will happily go

00:46:39.228 --> 00:46:39.449
along,

00:46:39.489 --> 00:46:40.728
but I don't know how much juice I've

00:46:40.750 --> 00:46:42.931
got to be organizing meetups again.

00:46:43.291 --> 00:46:43.891
Yeah, for sure.

00:46:44.112 --> 00:46:45.411
Yeah, same, same.

00:46:45.632 --> 00:46:46.253
Yeah.

00:46:46.313 --> 00:46:47.512
Well, thank you, Dee, for coming.

00:46:48.534 --> 00:46:49.853
And before we go,

00:46:49.934 --> 00:46:52.735
where can people find you on the internet?

00:46:53.155 --> 00:46:55.797
They can find me at Dee Teal,

00:46:55.817 --> 00:46:57.777
D-E-E-T-E-A-L.com.

00:46:58.018 --> 00:47:00.239
They can find me on thewedprincess.com on

00:47:00.260 --> 00:47:00.960
Blue Sky.

00:47:02.541 --> 00:47:06.282
They can find me at wpincludes.me or on

00:47:06.302 --> 00:47:08.543
the Future of Team podcast that I do

00:47:08.583 --> 00:47:11.184
with my friend from Canada, James Giroux.

00:47:12.420 --> 00:47:12.739
Awesome.

00:47:13.380 --> 00:47:14.260
Well, again,

00:47:14.280 --> 00:47:18.023
thank you for joining me on this podcast.

00:47:18.663 --> 00:47:20.384
Go check out Dee's podcast.

00:47:20.503 --> 00:47:22.005
I definitely want to listen to Dee's

00:47:22.045 --> 00:47:22.985
podcast as well.

00:47:24.045 --> 00:47:25.445
Let's talk about a lot of these similar

00:47:25.465 --> 00:47:28.447
things, workplace, leadership, management.

00:47:29.307 --> 00:47:32.009
So there's no code talk because I can't

00:47:32.068 --> 00:47:32.849
talk code.

00:47:33.369 --> 00:47:35.090
It's been fifteen years since I touched

00:47:35.190 --> 00:47:35.431
any.

00:47:36.112 --> 00:47:36.692
I mean,

00:47:37.333 --> 00:47:40.795
I figure there's enough code tech podcasts

00:47:40.875 --> 00:47:42.717
out there that if that's what you're

00:47:42.737 --> 00:47:43.856
looking for, you can find it.

00:47:43.996 --> 00:47:45.097
People, people, people.

00:47:45.579 --> 00:47:46.059
Well, thanks, Chris.

00:47:46.079 --> 00:47:47.460
It's been absolutely lovely to be here.

00:47:47.800 --> 00:47:49.481
Yeah, it's been lovely to have you on.

00:47:49.541 --> 00:47:51.523
And for everyone else who's watching or

00:47:51.563 --> 00:47:52.623
listening to this in the future,

00:47:53.143 --> 00:47:54.644
we'll see you on the internet.

00:47:54.684 --> 00:47:54.985
Yes, indeed.