WEBVTT

00:00:19.852 --> 00:00:21.092
Welcome to Community & Code,

00:00:21.532 --> 00:00:23.913
the podcast where we talk to the humans

00:00:24.014 --> 00:00:25.094
behind the commits.

00:00:25.434 --> 00:00:27.236
I'm here today with Mike Herschel,

00:00:27.477 --> 00:00:30.157
who is a co-founder of something called

00:00:30.298 --> 00:00:32.859
DripYard and a longtime member and

00:00:33.140 --> 00:00:34.521
developer in the Drupal community.

00:00:34.561 --> 00:00:35.321
Welcome to the show, Mike.

00:00:35.341 --> 00:00:37.542
Hey, thanks for having me.

00:00:37.582 --> 00:00:41.164
So I think we can start by asking,

00:00:41.745 --> 00:00:44.265
what is a DripYard?

00:00:44.426 --> 00:00:45.067
That's a good question.

00:00:45.771 --> 00:00:47.751
Oh, there's a whole bunch of background.

00:00:48.832 --> 00:00:51.654
So like the TLDR of Dripyard is we

00:00:51.713 --> 00:00:54.216
sell premium Drupal themes that don't

00:00:54.256 --> 00:00:54.515
suck.

00:00:57.758 --> 00:00:59.338
So Drupal in the past,

00:00:59.878 --> 00:01:02.159
like it really never had a robust theme

00:01:02.179 --> 00:01:04.582
ecosystem like WordPress or Webflow or any

00:01:04.601 --> 00:01:05.682
of the other competitors have.

00:01:06.383 --> 00:01:08.423
And part of that reason is just because...

00:01:09.737 --> 00:01:11.679
Within, within, within Drupal,

00:01:11.779 --> 00:01:14.401
the theme is so separated from like the

00:01:14.441 --> 00:01:16.121
rest of the system,

00:01:16.222 --> 00:01:17.682
it would never have any idea what the

00:01:17.703 --> 00:01:18.283
markup is.

00:01:18.904 --> 00:01:21.465
So like a Drupal developer would go in

00:01:21.505 --> 00:01:22.986
and create, you know, their views,

00:01:23.046 --> 00:01:24.507
which are kind of like smart lists,

00:01:24.546 --> 00:01:25.608
like the loop type stuff.

00:01:26.340 --> 00:01:26.680
And,

00:01:27.521 --> 00:01:29.222
but the theme could never predict what,

00:01:29.263 --> 00:01:29.563
you know,

00:01:29.582 --> 00:01:30.983
what the DOM structure was and what the

00:01:31.004 --> 00:01:32.084
CSS classes is.

00:01:32.125 --> 00:01:33.546
So, so it could never,

00:01:33.887 --> 00:01:35.207
you can never theme against that.

00:01:35.688 --> 00:01:36.849
And that recently all changed.

00:01:36.909 --> 00:01:39.891
Drupal now has a concept of components.

00:01:39.932 --> 00:01:41.813
We have like a thing called single

00:01:41.834 --> 00:01:44.096
directory components where you have a

00:01:44.135 --> 00:01:45.456
theme can ship a whole library of

00:01:45.477 --> 00:01:47.118
components as you know, the markup,

00:01:47.599 --> 00:01:49.700
the scheme of what type of data has

00:01:49.740 --> 00:01:51.522
and, you know, JavaScript and CSS.

00:01:52.186 --> 00:01:56.688
So our company is now shipping themes that

00:01:58.790 --> 00:01:59.990
have a whole library of components.

00:02:00.010 --> 00:02:02.251
You can wire your data directly in there

00:02:02.292 --> 00:02:03.472
through the UI or through code.

00:02:04.593 --> 00:02:07.355
But yeah, that's basically the gist of it.

00:02:08.805 --> 00:02:11.906
So I'm a WordPress dude,

00:02:12.066 --> 00:02:13.727
and I think a lot of this is

00:02:13.748 --> 00:02:15.750
going to be, we do this in WordPress,

00:02:16.129 --> 00:02:17.570
and how does this work in Drupal?

00:02:17.611 --> 00:02:21.112
And it's funny because I was at Badcamp

00:02:21.554 --> 00:02:22.134
last month.

00:02:22.153 --> 00:02:23.635
It was my first Badcamp,

00:02:23.655 --> 00:02:24.715
which is Bay Area Drupal camp.

00:02:25.396 --> 00:02:26.896
And I was doing that thing.

00:02:26.956 --> 00:02:29.098
I was being that person, the voice of,

00:02:29.179 --> 00:02:31.659
why does WordPress do this for the Drupal

00:02:31.680 --> 00:02:32.181
folks there?

00:02:33.282 --> 00:02:37.623
So I will definitely empathize putting you

00:02:37.663 --> 00:02:38.405
in this position,

00:02:38.525 --> 00:02:40.445
having just been in that position from the

00:02:40.485 --> 00:02:40.986
other side.

00:02:42.548 --> 00:02:45.049
But so talk a little bit more about,

00:02:45.169 --> 00:02:45.509
like,

00:02:46.973 --> 00:02:49.056
You mentioned that there's specifically

00:02:49.135 --> 00:02:52.060
technical limitations of the way that

00:02:52.159 --> 00:02:54.322
themes sort of existed in Drupal in the

00:02:54.382 --> 00:02:57.246
past that sort of prevented the existence

00:02:57.406 --> 00:02:58.407
or, I guess,

00:02:58.526 --> 00:02:59.949
feasibility of something like a

00:03:00.008 --> 00:03:00.569
marketplace.

00:03:01.090 --> 00:03:01.210
Yeah.

00:03:02.091 --> 00:03:03.891
Can I guess from, from,

00:03:04.391 --> 00:03:06.152
from a dev perspective,

00:03:06.193 --> 00:03:08.234
somebody like I have a history of like

00:03:08.354 --> 00:03:10.435
building WordPress themes and actually had

00:03:10.455 --> 00:03:12.395
a site for a while where I was

00:03:12.475 --> 00:03:15.116
attempting to sell WordPress themes.

00:03:15.556 --> 00:03:18.377
Why, what, what is the sticking point?

00:03:18.418 --> 00:03:19.998
What are the sticking points that

00:03:20.299 --> 00:03:22.819
prevented that from being really, uh,

00:03:22.840 --> 00:03:25.461
doable in, in Drupal from like, like,

00:03:26.100 --> 00:03:28.382
like, uh, in the weeds kind of, uh,

00:03:29.143 --> 00:03:29.622
direction.

00:03:30.418 --> 00:03:31.878
yeah yeah so if you want to get

00:03:31.919 --> 00:03:35.542
down into the weeds um like drupal of

00:03:35.581 --> 00:03:37.743
course has been around for a very long

00:03:37.804 --> 00:03:40.705
time and like so within drupal you go

00:03:40.746 --> 00:03:43.927
into your admin form or your admin side

00:03:44.187 --> 00:03:45.429
and you create what's called content types

00:03:45.449 --> 00:03:46.911
which are the same thing as post types

00:03:47.010 --> 00:03:49.271
you know and and they're all fieldable

00:03:49.292 --> 00:03:50.052
they're all kind of

00:03:51.054 --> 00:03:54.435
And then we have another like a module

00:03:54.474 --> 00:03:56.814
that's integrated into Drupal called

00:03:56.835 --> 00:03:57.254
views.

00:03:57.275 --> 00:03:59.575
And you create like basic, like a,

00:03:59.635 --> 00:04:00.895
like a listing of items.

00:04:00.915 --> 00:04:02.496
You can create filters and smarts.

00:04:02.836 --> 00:04:03.695
It's really powerful.

00:04:03.735 --> 00:04:04.656
You can do a heck of a lot

00:04:04.675 --> 00:04:05.336
of stuff with that.

00:04:06.097 --> 00:04:07.736
But as you do that,

00:04:08.616 --> 00:04:10.217
as you create these content types,

00:04:11.078 --> 00:04:12.518
as you create these fields within the

00:04:12.557 --> 00:04:15.098
content types, as you create these views,

00:04:15.318 --> 00:04:16.838
Drupal will add markup, you know,

00:04:16.859 --> 00:04:18.658
it'll add like a thing, like it'll,

00:04:19.508 --> 00:04:20.169
like with Drupal,

00:04:20.449 --> 00:04:21.909
a piece of content is called the node.

00:04:22.409 --> 00:04:25.031
And so it'll add like a C a

00:04:25.131 --> 00:04:27.450
default CSS class on there called like no

00:04:27.512 --> 00:04:30.012
dash dash, you know, episode or something.

00:04:30.032 --> 00:04:31.733
If you're doing a podcast website,

00:04:33.013 --> 00:04:36.113
but when you're trying to sell a theme,

00:04:36.754 --> 00:04:37.014
you know,

00:04:37.033 --> 00:04:38.394
you're trying to sell a theme that can

00:04:38.454 --> 00:04:40.475
work with a whole bunch of things.

00:04:41.375 --> 00:04:43.295
And the theme doesn't have this

00:04:43.355 --> 00:04:43.815
functionality.

00:04:43.836 --> 00:04:44.437
Themes cannot,

00:04:44.497 --> 00:04:45.877
cannot contain content types.

00:04:45.937 --> 00:04:47.117
They can't contain views.

00:04:48.218 --> 00:04:48.497
So,

00:04:50.052 --> 00:04:51.091
you can ship a theme,

00:04:51.112 --> 00:04:53.372
but you don't know that that CSS class

00:04:53.392 --> 00:04:55.213
is going to be no dash dash episode.

00:04:56.233 --> 00:04:59.014
And you also don't know, you know,

00:04:59.235 --> 00:05:01.214
what the HTML structure is underneath,

00:05:01.295 --> 00:05:01.636
you know?

00:05:02.615 --> 00:05:04.516
And, and, and so that made things,

00:05:04.935 --> 00:05:07.396
that made things pretty, pretty, pretty,

00:05:08.357 --> 00:05:08.658
you know,

00:05:08.737 --> 00:05:10.978
almost impossible for a robust theme

00:05:10.997 --> 00:05:11.517
ecosystem.

00:05:11.598 --> 00:05:13.238
And there's companies out there that do

00:05:13.278 --> 00:05:14.119
sell Drupal themes.

00:05:14.139 --> 00:05:16.360
You'll see my theme forest and stuff like

00:05:16.399 --> 00:05:16.600
that.

00:05:17.634 --> 00:05:20.315
um these the the themes that are sold

00:05:20.896 --> 00:05:23.495
like they kind of get around that by

00:05:23.656 --> 00:05:26.197
by shipping a custom module with themes

00:05:26.237 --> 00:05:27.836
and so the custom module might install

00:05:27.877 --> 00:05:30.336
some content types you know might have

00:05:30.377 --> 00:05:32.658
some views and stuff like that but as

00:05:32.697 --> 00:05:35.978
soon as you go away from where that

00:05:36.017 --> 00:05:39.218
custom or where that custom module points

00:05:39.259 --> 00:05:41.738
you to everything falls apart because the

00:05:41.759 --> 00:05:44.740
theme can't handle that right and uh

00:05:45.632 --> 00:05:46.814
So that's the difference, you know?

00:05:47.173 --> 00:05:51.795
And yeah, yeah, that's basically it.

00:05:51.935 --> 00:05:53.255
Yeah, so like fundamentally,

00:05:53.295 --> 00:05:55.836
I guess sort of quasi-equivalent,

00:05:55.877 --> 00:05:57.096
although I think you could still probably

00:05:57.156 --> 00:05:58.858
build a theme that was open enough in

00:05:58.898 --> 00:06:00.819
WordPress to support this too.

00:06:00.858 --> 00:06:04.100
But like the idea of like I'm doing,

00:06:05.120 --> 00:06:07.540
like we were talking before we hit record,

00:06:07.600 --> 00:06:11.283
is like this website has a custom post

00:06:11.322 --> 00:06:12.442
type called episodes.

00:06:13.002 --> 00:06:14.043
And if...

00:06:14.783 --> 00:06:16.665
like WordPress didn't understand and

00:06:16.685 --> 00:06:19.125
didn't like already like have some like

00:06:19.225 --> 00:06:21.867
base classes and whatever that just the

00:06:21.908 --> 00:06:24.168
themes expect to use or you know that

00:06:24.189 --> 00:06:27.750
are general enough then the idea is that

00:06:27.810 --> 00:06:30.192
because the theme doesn't necessarily know

00:06:30.211 --> 00:06:31.812
about the existence of the episode post

00:06:31.853 --> 00:06:34.553
type it would and because Drupal

00:06:34.935 --> 00:06:37.396
specifically is kind of architected from

00:06:37.435 --> 00:06:40.237
the perspective of like we're letting you

00:06:40.276 --> 00:06:40.918
tell us

00:06:41.778 --> 00:06:43.538
what types of content you're using on your

00:06:43.598 --> 00:06:45.721
site, uh, then it's like,

00:06:45.781 --> 00:06:46.841
the theme is like, well, like,

00:06:48.701 --> 00:06:49.603
I don't know what you're doing.

00:06:49.882 --> 00:06:50.684
Uh,

00:06:50.723 --> 00:06:52.625
so it can't really fill in those gaps

00:06:52.685 --> 00:06:54.966
as, as easily as what I'm hearing.

00:06:55.045 --> 00:06:55.747
Yeah, exactly.

00:06:56.127 --> 00:06:56.827
So, you know,

00:06:56.848 --> 00:06:58.367
and the thing can maybe do like some

00:06:58.408 --> 00:07:00.470
default styling, you know, you know,

00:07:00.490 --> 00:07:02.350
put some spacing around stuff, but,

00:07:03.000 --> 00:07:04.560
You know, and, and like me, like,

00:07:04.660 --> 00:07:05.920
like I,

00:07:05.940 --> 00:07:07.600
the default theme in Drupal is called

00:07:07.661 --> 00:07:08.161
Olivero.

00:07:08.180 --> 00:07:09.040
Like when you installed it,

00:07:09.060 --> 00:07:10.060
when you installed Drupal,

00:07:10.081 --> 00:07:10.661
that's what you get.

00:07:11.161 --> 00:07:12.982
And I was the primary dev on that.

00:07:13.242 --> 00:07:16.682
And so we had to basically try to

00:07:16.721 --> 00:07:18.583
accommodate everything without the ability

00:07:18.802 --> 00:07:19.762
to accommodate everything.

00:07:19.783 --> 00:07:19.963
Sure.

00:07:20.523 --> 00:07:22.023
You know, but,

00:07:22.483 --> 00:07:24.223
but with the introduction of components,

00:07:24.264 --> 00:07:25.663
you know, so, so,

00:07:25.944 --> 00:07:28.644
so now like as a theme developer,

00:07:28.723 --> 00:07:30.245
I can, I can ship a library,

00:07:30.264 --> 00:07:31.045
you know, a fifty,

00:07:31.125 --> 00:07:32.285
sixty components or more.

00:07:33.197 --> 00:07:34.759
and let's say i want to create an

00:07:34.778 --> 00:07:37.161
episode you know content type or post type

00:07:37.180 --> 00:07:39.201
or whatever at that point you know i

00:07:39.242 --> 00:07:41.064
can i can kind of drag in you

00:07:41.103 --> 00:07:44.786
know the a title component you know map

00:07:44.807 --> 00:07:47.528
that to the you know my title field

00:07:47.588 --> 00:07:48.870
i can drag in you know same thing

00:07:48.889 --> 00:07:51.271
with a body field or you know a

00:07:51.312 --> 00:07:54.654
video field and you know potentially you

00:07:54.675 --> 00:07:56.857
know mp three like an audio player and

00:07:56.896 --> 00:07:57.798
stuff like that right

00:07:59.490 --> 00:08:02.274
And so now it comes a lot more

00:08:02.293 --> 00:08:03.375
flexible, which is pretty neat.

00:08:04.629 --> 00:08:08.391
And I have been watching what's been going

00:08:08.511 --> 00:08:09.971
on in Drupal land.

00:08:11.012 --> 00:08:12.512
This is sort of a,

00:08:13.692 --> 00:08:16.053
one might suggest a fortuitous time for

00:08:16.074 --> 00:08:18.274
the existence or emergence of a theme

00:08:18.295 --> 00:08:19.095
development shop,

00:08:19.915 --> 00:08:22.276
given that Dries Boitart,

00:08:22.315 --> 00:08:23.375
the founder of Drupal,

00:08:23.396 --> 00:08:26.177
has been talking a lot about marketplaces

00:08:26.976 --> 00:08:29.598
and selling Drupal stuff.

00:08:30.038 --> 00:08:31.959
Talk about that relationship.

00:08:32.860 --> 00:08:35.742
and what your thoughts are about sort of

00:08:35.841 --> 00:08:37.742
a commercial ecosystem for Drupal.

00:08:38.644 --> 00:08:39.004
Yeah.

00:08:39.163 --> 00:08:41.725
So like for the longest time,

00:08:42.065 --> 00:08:42.966
when I say for the longest time,

00:08:43.005 --> 00:08:44.548
maybe like for the past ten years,

00:08:45.028 --> 00:08:46.988
Drupal really concentrated on like the

00:08:47.009 --> 00:08:47.550
enterprise.

00:08:47.610 --> 00:08:48.951
You know, we were like, all right,

00:08:48.990 --> 00:08:51.272
let's just put our time and effort into

00:08:51.351 --> 00:08:52.653
tracking down these Fortune five hundred

00:08:52.673 --> 00:08:54.374
companies and try to get these million

00:08:54.394 --> 00:08:55.335
dollar contracts.

00:08:55.514 --> 00:08:55.835
And, you know,

00:08:55.855 --> 00:08:59.898
that would work for the larger companies.

00:09:00.118 --> 00:09:01.219
But at the same time,

00:09:02.022 --> 00:09:05.322
the unintended consequence of that is that

00:09:05.363 --> 00:09:07.183
Drupal's market share started to decline.

00:09:07.484 --> 00:09:10.245
And when the market share declines,

00:09:11.085 --> 00:09:12.745
that means that there are less Drupal

00:09:12.765 --> 00:09:13.245
developers.

00:09:13.265 --> 00:09:15.006
There are less people, you know,

00:09:15.147 --> 00:09:16.647
in that mid-market kind of learning

00:09:16.706 --> 00:09:18.288
Drupal, knowing what Drupal is.

00:09:19.087 --> 00:09:21.609
And that has hurt Drupal, you know?

00:09:22.328 --> 00:09:24.809
And so eventually the, you know,

00:09:24.830 --> 00:09:25.529
the powers that be,

00:09:25.549 --> 00:09:27.091
the leadership within Drupal said like,

00:09:27.171 --> 00:09:28.671
all right, well,

00:09:28.691 --> 00:09:30.371
we need to recapture this mid-market.

00:09:31.057 --> 00:09:35.620
And so they put together this huge

00:09:35.640 --> 00:09:37.241
strategy, and this is up on Dries'.

00:09:39.562 --> 00:09:41.344
He has a blog somewhere called Starshot

00:09:41.384 --> 00:09:42.365
Product Strategy.

00:09:42.804 --> 00:09:44.905
Starshot was the code name for Drupal CMS

00:09:44.966 --> 00:09:46.187
before it was called Drupal CMS.

00:09:47.226 --> 00:09:51.590
And so basically the goal is for Drupal

00:09:51.610 --> 00:09:57.273
to become feasible of being a CMS chosen

00:09:57.373 --> 00:09:58.254
for a website

00:09:58.988 --> 00:09:59.288
you know,

00:09:59.327 --> 00:10:01.428
that has like maybe a budget of like

00:10:01.469 --> 00:10:03.309
ten to thirty thousand dollars or

00:10:03.330 --> 00:10:05.149
something like that, which right now,

00:10:05.730 --> 00:10:06.910
unless you're a Drupal developer,

00:10:06.931 --> 00:10:08.191
you probably don't want to do that

00:10:08.211 --> 00:10:09.032
because, you know,

00:10:09.692 --> 00:10:10.812
Drupal can be a little expensive.

00:10:11.832 --> 00:10:15.453
So as part of that, they decided,

00:10:15.474 --> 00:10:15.994
all right, well,

00:10:16.014 --> 00:10:19.014
we're going to create this kind of like,

00:10:20.316 --> 00:10:21.495
I call it like an easy button for

00:10:21.535 --> 00:10:24.177
Drupal, you know, called Drupal CMS.

00:10:24.216 --> 00:10:26.097
And it has like all the modules that

00:10:26.118 --> 00:10:27.258
you have to download pre-configure.

00:10:27.996 --> 00:10:28.177
You know,

00:10:28.197 --> 00:10:29.818
because there's like some modules that

00:10:29.839 --> 00:10:31.461
should totally be part of Drupal core

00:10:31.480 --> 00:10:34.144
things like, you know, like the, uh,

00:10:34.163 --> 00:10:35.565
friendly paths, you know?

00:10:35.605 --> 00:10:37.006
So if you create a piece of content,

00:10:37.027 --> 00:10:38.607
it's not node slash one, it's like,

00:10:38.648 --> 00:10:39.009
you know,

00:10:39.428 --> 00:10:42.633
whatever it automatically gets that node

00:10:42.673 --> 00:10:43.793
title in there and stuff for SEO.

00:10:43.874 --> 00:10:44.134
Um,

00:10:45.434 --> 00:10:47.037
so it has all this stuff pre-configured

00:10:47.057 --> 00:10:47.738
and it's pretty nice.

00:10:48.764 --> 00:10:50.586
but there's still a couple of missing

00:10:50.625 --> 00:10:51.386
pieces in there.

00:10:52.187 --> 00:10:53.769
One of the missing pieces is like a

00:10:53.808 --> 00:10:54.769
decent page builder.

00:10:54.990 --> 00:10:57.312
Like Drupal has this whole ecosystem of

00:10:57.331 --> 00:10:58.753
page builders because no one has

00:10:59.332 --> 00:11:00.894
specifically like taken over.

00:11:01.514 --> 00:11:01.995
And honestly,

00:11:02.034 --> 00:11:03.495
this is something that's like kind of hurt

00:11:03.537 --> 00:11:03.917
Drupal.

00:11:03.956 --> 00:11:04.197
You know,

00:11:04.277 --> 00:11:05.738
you can kind of do anything in Drupal,

00:11:05.758 --> 00:11:07.019
but it shouldn't be this much effort.

00:11:07.139 --> 00:11:08.519
You know, WordPress has Gutenberg,

00:11:08.559 --> 00:11:10.581
Webflow has whatever the hell Webflow has,

00:11:10.861 --> 00:11:11.582
et cetera, you know?

00:11:12.482 --> 00:11:14.125
And so, so there's a,

00:11:14.903 --> 00:11:15.842
they're Acquia,

00:11:15.863 --> 00:11:17.644
which is kind of like the largest Drupal

00:11:17.663 --> 00:11:17.943
company.

00:11:17.984 --> 00:11:19.284
And the one that Drew's founded, uh,

00:11:19.904 --> 00:11:21.466
is creating a next generation page builder

00:11:21.485 --> 00:11:24.167
called Drupal canvas and Drupal canvas

00:11:24.226 --> 00:11:26.207
does everything that you should pretty

00:11:26.248 --> 00:11:27.268
much, you know,

00:11:27.327 --> 00:11:29.528
you would assume it would do, you know,

00:11:30.009 --> 00:11:31.990
and, and does a few extra things too,

00:11:32.009 --> 00:11:32.610
which is pretty cool.

00:11:32.649 --> 00:11:34.311
So you can like copy and paste components,

00:11:34.350 --> 00:11:35.091
group components,

00:11:35.130 --> 00:11:36.772
create what's called like patterns,

00:11:37.272 --> 00:11:39.732
you know, edit them, you know,

00:11:40.013 --> 00:11:41.594
you can map your data to it.

00:11:42.134 --> 00:11:43.195
It's, it's pretty cool.

00:11:43.754 --> 00:11:43.934
Um,

00:11:44.471 --> 00:11:49.113
And then, um, so, so, uh,

00:11:49.153 --> 00:11:51.333
so at that point we have, you know,

00:11:51.394 --> 00:11:52.754
once Drupal canvas comes out,

00:11:52.774 --> 00:11:54.134
which will probably be next month.

00:11:54.254 --> 00:11:55.514
And then, you know,

00:11:55.534 --> 00:11:57.816
we have then Drupal CMS two dot O

00:11:57.836 --> 00:11:58.697
will be released.

00:11:59.417 --> 00:12:01.697
So at that point we have like a

00:12:01.778 --> 00:12:03.057
pretty good starting point,

00:12:03.798 --> 00:12:05.418
but we still need to like,

00:12:05.458 --> 00:12:07.419
kind of put everything together to compete

00:12:07.480 --> 00:12:09.860
with WordPress, to compete with Webflow,

00:12:09.880 --> 00:12:12.562
Wix, Squarespace, you know, and.

00:12:13.239 --> 00:12:14.879
all contentful and all those headless

00:12:14.899 --> 00:12:15.519
CMSs.

00:12:16.159 --> 00:12:19.240
So at that point, you know,

00:12:19.280 --> 00:12:21.041
the Drupal association of powers that be

00:12:21.100 --> 00:12:23.522
said, like, like we need this ecosystem.

00:12:23.562 --> 00:12:25.023
We want to do something called site

00:12:25.062 --> 00:12:28.104
templates and site templates are basically

00:12:28.203 --> 00:12:30.604
like, it's a, it's a theme,

00:12:31.225 --> 00:12:32.164
it's a Drupal theme,

00:12:32.485 --> 00:12:35.125
but also like pre-configured with those

00:12:35.166 --> 00:12:36.025
content types, you know,

00:12:36.046 --> 00:12:39.386
which are similar to post types, you know,

00:12:39.466 --> 00:12:39.767
has,

00:12:40.288 --> 00:12:41.687
it can come pre-configured with modules.

00:12:42.421 --> 00:12:44.522
And it can also come pre-configured with

00:12:46.422 --> 00:12:47.982
default content, you know?

00:12:48.123 --> 00:12:50.024
So an example of this is like,

00:12:50.063 --> 00:12:51.364
let's say I'm a church and I want

00:12:51.384 --> 00:12:52.384
to, you know,

00:12:52.403 --> 00:12:54.985
I want a church churchy website, you know,

00:12:55.304 --> 00:12:57.285
and I built a couple of those.

00:12:57.785 --> 00:12:57.985
Yeah.

00:12:58.206 --> 00:12:58.446
Yeah.

00:13:00.866 --> 00:13:01.988
You know, I, I,

00:13:02.087 --> 00:13:03.888
I would hypothetically be able to browse

00:13:03.908 --> 00:13:04.708
this marketplace,

00:13:05.009 --> 00:13:07.750
look for a site template that like,

00:13:07.809 --> 00:13:08.090
you know,

00:13:08.149 --> 00:13:09.389
it would have maybe have a list of

00:13:09.409 --> 00:13:10.350
the content types, you know,

00:13:10.370 --> 00:13:11.650
you may have like sermons.

00:13:12.453 --> 00:13:14.855
you know, events and blog, all that,

00:13:15.035 --> 00:13:15.756
all that good stuff.

00:13:16.596 --> 00:13:19.700
And at that point, pull it down,

00:13:20.379 --> 00:13:20.921
install it.

00:13:21.100 --> 00:13:23.003
And at that point, you would, number one,

00:13:23.043 --> 00:13:23.863
have all,

00:13:23.883 --> 00:13:25.183
you would have content so you can just

00:13:25.244 --> 00:13:26.044
edit content.

00:13:26.585 --> 00:13:28.527
And then you would have a beautiful theme,

00:13:28.567 --> 00:13:30.908
hopefully, and everything pre-configured.

00:13:31.369 --> 00:13:33.730
So it's, but at that point,

00:13:33.850 --> 00:13:35.312
like what's really cool is you have that

00:13:35.351 --> 00:13:36.933
flexibility of Drupal now.

00:13:36.974 --> 00:13:38.654
Like Drupal is hyper-flexible.

00:13:38.674 --> 00:13:41.456
Drupal can build like so many things if

00:13:41.517 --> 00:13:42.057
you have,

00:13:43.241 --> 00:13:43.542
you know,

00:13:43.662 --> 00:13:44.841
if you kind of know your way around

00:13:44.902 --> 00:13:46.543
it, like, like Drupal is fricking amazing.

00:13:47.442 --> 00:13:48.643
So, so that's,

00:13:48.962 --> 00:13:50.802
that's kind of where we're going with

00:13:50.822 --> 00:13:51.062
that.

00:13:51.342 --> 00:13:53.504
And, and to get started, we're,

00:13:53.624 --> 00:13:56.443
we're like the, the marketplace is,

00:13:56.764 --> 00:13:58.284
is set to kick off like right around

00:13:58.325 --> 00:13:59.304
DrupalCon Chicago,

00:13:59.345 --> 00:14:00.565
which is going to be in March.

00:14:01.605 --> 00:14:02.625
And, um,

00:14:02.684 --> 00:14:04.125
it's going to be kind of like almost

00:14:04.186 --> 00:14:05.926
like a beta, you know,

00:14:05.966 --> 00:14:06.666
like we're going to be there.

00:14:06.686 --> 00:14:07.625
We're going to have a couple of site

00:14:07.645 --> 00:14:07.946
templates.

00:14:07.966 --> 00:14:09.246
There's going to be fifteen or sixteen

00:14:09.267 --> 00:14:10.966
other companies that have some type site

00:14:10.986 --> 00:14:11.427
templates.

00:14:12.042 --> 00:14:13.422
we don't know what we're going to build

00:14:13.461 --> 00:14:13.601
yet,

00:14:13.682 --> 00:14:14.643
or at least I don't know what we're

00:14:14.663 --> 00:14:15.743
going to build,

00:14:16.363 --> 00:14:18.583
but all our stuff is going to work.

00:14:18.744 --> 00:14:19.344
It's going to be awesome.

00:14:19.364 --> 00:14:20.943
It's going to be super accessible and,

00:14:21.304 --> 00:14:23.205
and hopefully people will buy it,

00:14:23.865 --> 00:14:26.225
you know, and if they buy it, well,

00:14:26.265 --> 00:14:26.806
that's good.

00:14:26.885 --> 00:14:31.908
Like, like I, I can tell you, like,

00:14:31.947 --> 00:14:33.128
I've been to a number of WordCamps.

00:14:33.168 --> 00:14:35.227
I've been to like WordCamp Miami and

00:14:35.388 --> 00:14:37.028
Jacksonville, probably one or two others.

00:14:38.027 --> 00:14:40.307
And the amount of money into WordPress

00:14:40.388 --> 00:14:44.350
ecosystem is like significantly more than

00:14:44.409 --> 00:14:45.770
in the Drupal ecosystem.

00:14:46.711 --> 00:14:49.613
And the reason is, is because of the,

00:14:50.852 --> 00:14:53.835
like the robust commercial ecosystem

00:14:53.875 --> 00:14:54.534
around WordPress.

00:14:54.554 --> 00:14:56.275
You know, you have, you know,

00:14:56.316 --> 00:14:57.976
however many theme vendors,

00:14:58.017 --> 00:15:01.258
you got all these plugin vendors,

00:15:01.317 --> 00:15:03.298
you know, and stuff like that.

00:15:03.658 --> 00:15:04.759
And they're all advertising.

00:15:05.500 --> 00:15:07.061
And the thing about that is like,

00:15:07.948 --> 00:15:09.811
That's why, you know,

00:15:09.870 --> 00:15:12.332
WordCamp US can cost like fifty dollars or

00:15:12.352 --> 00:15:14.995
something like that, because, you know,

00:15:15.034 --> 00:15:17.015
they get is a fifty dollars or just

00:15:17.035 --> 00:15:17.576
a couple hundred.

00:15:17.657 --> 00:15:19.839
Yeah, it's yeah, it's I think.

00:15:21.409 --> 00:15:23.331
I want to say this last year,

00:15:23.351 --> 00:15:24.493
it was fifty dollars a day.

00:15:24.932 --> 00:15:27.434
I have honestly paid less attention to

00:15:27.475 --> 00:15:31.118
WordCamp prices because my company pays

00:15:31.158 --> 00:15:31.457
for them,

00:15:31.477 --> 00:15:35.160
so I never even look at the ticket

00:15:35.400 --> 00:15:35.541
price.

00:15:35.561 --> 00:15:35.761
But yeah,

00:15:35.861 --> 00:15:36.902
I think it was fifty dollars a day,

00:15:36.942 --> 00:15:38.203
so if you're going to WordCamp US,

00:15:38.244 --> 00:15:41.385
it would be a hundred dollars, I think.

00:15:41.446 --> 00:15:42.726
Yeah, so that's ridiculously cheap.

00:15:42.927 --> 00:15:44.948
But that's super cheap as compared to

00:15:44.969 --> 00:15:47.370
DrupalCon, which is like one K, basically.

00:15:47.696 --> 00:15:48.015
Yeah.

00:15:48.157 --> 00:15:48.397
Yeah.

00:15:48.517 --> 00:15:48.797
And, and,

00:15:48.956 --> 00:15:51.139
and DrupalCon is lowering their prices.

00:15:51.279 --> 00:15:53.081
FYI, like DrupalCon Chicago,

00:15:53.140 --> 00:15:54.663
like prices are going to start like at

00:15:54.682 --> 00:15:56.625
five hundred just because we're kind of

00:15:56.644 --> 00:15:57.865
realizing we're pricing people out,

00:15:58.346 --> 00:15:58.547
you know,

00:15:58.586 --> 00:15:59.888
especially like a lot of the smaller

00:15:59.908 --> 00:16:02.009
companies like, like Dripyard, you know,

00:16:02.049 --> 00:16:04.432
like to drop a couple grand going there,

00:16:04.712 --> 00:16:05.592
you know, that's,

00:16:05.712 --> 00:16:07.154
that's a little more significant than if

00:16:07.195 --> 00:16:09.057
you're like Pantheon or Acquia or,

00:16:09.517 --> 00:16:09.756
you know,

00:16:09.856 --> 00:16:11.119
Automatic or something like that,

00:16:11.158 --> 00:16:11.359
you know?

00:16:12.001 --> 00:16:16.285
You're hitting on all of my key touch

00:16:16.326 --> 00:16:17.927
points about things in the WordPress

00:16:17.988 --> 00:16:18.947
ecosystem.

00:16:19.168 --> 00:16:20.929
There's just so many crossovers.

00:16:21.831 --> 00:16:23.091
So one of the things, okay,

00:16:23.211 --> 00:16:24.774
so a foundational, I'll start here.

00:16:24.854 --> 00:16:26.975
A foundational part of this podcast

00:16:27.015 --> 00:16:30.318
specifically came out of a sticker that I

00:16:30.359 --> 00:16:32.860
got from DrupalCon, which is right here,

00:16:32.941 --> 00:16:34.263
because I was at DrupalCon last year.

00:16:34.562 --> 00:16:36.384
Come for the code, stay for the community.

00:16:36.465 --> 00:16:37.325
And that was...

00:16:38.466 --> 00:16:41.368
That resonated with me because that's the

00:16:41.388 --> 00:16:42.768
reason why I was in the WordPress

00:16:42.788 --> 00:16:43.188
community.

00:16:43.469 --> 00:16:43.869
Ultimately,

00:16:43.908 --> 00:16:47.009
that became one of the foundations for how

00:16:47.071 --> 00:16:50.511
I wanted to do this show.

00:16:50.711 --> 00:16:52.113
One of the things that I learned when

00:16:52.153 --> 00:16:56.554
I was in Atlanta that is distinct about

00:16:56.615 --> 00:16:59.897
the Drupal community from the WordPress

00:16:59.917 --> 00:17:04.099
developer ecosystem is that in Drupal,

00:17:04.458 --> 00:17:05.480
more frequently,

00:17:06.279 --> 00:17:09.703
if we both have tools or modules or

00:17:09.724 --> 00:17:13.027
whatever that serve a similar purpose that

00:17:13.067 --> 00:17:15.328
we're probably more likely to be like hey

00:17:15.349 --> 00:17:17.311
let's join forces and make the best thing

00:17:17.530 --> 00:17:18.773
so like if i have an seo plugin

00:17:18.793 --> 00:17:21.355
and you have an seo plugin then we

00:17:21.394 --> 00:17:22.737
might work together and be like well let's

00:17:22.777 --> 00:17:24.898
make one of these things the de facto

00:17:25.019 --> 00:17:27.320
seo plugin and make it the best plugin

00:17:27.401 --> 00:17:27.781
or module

00:17:28.721 --> 00:17:30.343
Whereas in the WordPress ecosystem,

00:17:31.423 --> 00:17:32.743
if I have an SEO plugin and you

00:17:32.763 --> 00:17:33.565
have an SEO plugin,

00:17:33.644 --> 00:17:35.105
I'm probably not going to talk to you

00:17:35.506 --> 00:17:37.707
because that's my IP and I might turn

00:17:37.727 --> 00:17:38.467
around and sell it.

00:17:38.847 --> 00:17:41.209
So I had a lot of conversations at

00:17:41.608 --> 00:17:42.710
DrupalCon about this,

00:17:42.769 --> 00:17:46.531
but also about the idea of a marketplace

00:17:46.551 --> 00:17:47.751
because that was sort of when Dries

00:17:47.771 --> 00:17:49.413
started floating the idea.

00:17:51.114 --> 00:17:54.336
And my reaction as someone in the

00:17:54.355 --> 00:17:57.357
WordPress ecosystem is I really like that

00:17:57.438 --> 00:18:00.820
model of being collaborative and sharing

00:18:00.840 --> 00:18:02.020
and like, you know,

00:18:02.102 --> 00:18:04.423
joining these two things instead of like

00:18:04.823 --> 00:18:07.684
really going head to head and competing.

00:18:08.246 --> 00:18:11.428
What is your take on sort of like,

00:18:11.468 --> 00:18:13.189
because in WordPress,

00:18:13.588 --> 00:18:15.088
we're more likely to be competitors and

00:18:15.128 --> 00:18:17.069
not sharing those ideas and being sort of

00:18:17.089 --> 00:18:17.890
siloing yourselves off.

00:18:18.150 --> 00:18:19.529
So what is your take on that sort

00:18:19.589 --> 00:18:21.671
of dynamic in terms of like,

00:18:22.151 --> 00:18:24.971
do you do you see that as something

00:18:25.010 --> 00:18:26.771
that could be a risk to like the

00:18:26.811 --> 00:18:29.451
Drupal developer ecosystem as things get a

00:18:29.491 --> 00:18:30.553
little bit more competitive?

00:18:31.373 --> 00:18:33.012
Yeah, things are always a risk, right?

00:18:33.053 --> 00:18:34.313
Like as soon as you make big changes

00:18:34.353 --> 00:18:35.913
like this and these are these are some

00:18:35.933 --> 00:18:37.153
of the biggest changes in the Drupal

00:18:37.193 --> 00:18:39.814
ecosystem ever, you know,

00:18:40.555 --> 00:18:41.535
there's always a risk.

00:18:42.893 --> 00:18:45.855
So, like, to expand on your point, like,

00:18:45.955 --> 00:18:47.636
I saw a blog post at one point

00:18:47.737 --> 00:18:49.278
that, like, WordPress had, like,

00:18:49.298 --> 00:18:50.398
I don't know,

00:18:50.419 --> 00:18:52.361
a hundred and something form builders,

00:18:52.500 --> 00:18:54.762
you know, that you can buy.

00:18:54.942 --> 00:18:57.644
And they won't play nice with each other.

00:18:58.685 --> 00:19:00.488
And then, like, furthermore, like,

00:19:00.508 --> 00:19:02.189
if you have WordPress and you install,

00:19:02.229 --> 00:19:04.250
like, you know, fourteen, fifteen plugins,

00:19:04.310 --> 00:19:06.772
you're kind of, your site's, like,

00:19:06.792 --> 00:19:07.894
a little funkier.

00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:09.480
You're probably fighting.

00:19:09.520 --> 00:19:10.342
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:19:10.622 --> 00:19:12.281
You can be fighting some bugs and stuff

00:19:12.321 --> 00:19:12.742
like that.

00:19:13.303 --> 00:19:15.143
Like one of the cool things is with

00:19:15.163 --> 00:19:18.105
Drupal is like all the modules play well

00:19:18.505 --> 00:19:18.904
together.

00:19:18.944 --> 00:19:20.826
Like Drupal has a very robust set of

00:19:21.526 --> 00:19:23.086
API APIs, you know, and,

00:19:23.185 --> 00:19:24.446
and that's something that,

00:19:24.527 --> 00:19:25.807
that we do better than WordPress.

00:19:25.826 --> 00:19:27.907
WordPress does a lot of better, a lot,

00:19:28.087 --> 00:19:29.288
a lot of things better than Drupal.

00:19:29.308 --> 00:19:31.088
But one thing we have is like a

00:19:31.128 --> 00:19:33.390
robust APIs that allow things to work

00:19:33.410 --> 00:19:33.710
together.

00:19:33.730 --> 00:19:34.891
So if you have like six to seven

00:19:34.911 --> 00:19:35.570
D modules,

00:19:36.105 --> 00:19:40.068
installed on a Drupal site, that's normal.

00:19:40.189 --> 00:19:41.269
If you have a couple hundred,

00:19:41.829 --> 00:19:42.570
that's fine too.

00:19:44.531 --> 00:19:49.756
And so going into Drupal has probably

00:19:49.996 --> 00:19:51.056
three or four page builders,

00:19:51.115 --> 00:19:52.257
but there's one big one.

00:19:52.416 --> 00:19:53.278
It's called Webform.

00:19:53.337 --> 00:19:54.078
It's easy.

00:19:54.699 --> 00:19:56.079
And built around Webform,

00:19:56.099 --> 00:19:57.780
there's ecosystems that build on top of

00:19:57.800 --> 00:19:59.602
that.

00:19:59.642 --> 00:20:01.284
So you'll have Webform Commerce,

00:20:01.324 --> 00:20:03.605
Webform this, Webform that,

00:20:03.704 --> 00:20:04.826
that allow you to do like

00:20:05.224 --> 00:20:06.125
you know, little things.

00:20:06.546 --> 00:20:07.366
And it's just really nice.

00:20:07.406 --> 00:20:08.968
You don't have to evaluate.

00:20:08.988 --> 00:20:10.209
You don't know, you don't got to pay,

00:20:10.348 --> 00:20:11.429
you know, twenty dollars,

00:20:11.469 --> 00:20:12.911
forty dollars or whatever for something

00:20:12.931 --> 00:20:13.171
like that.

00:20:13.191 --> 00:20:13.911
You just try it,

00:20:13.971 --> 00:20:16.212
you get it to work and and everything

00:20:16.252 --> 00:20:16.573
goes.

00:20:17.113 --> 00:20:20.596
So like that's that's one of the

00:20:20.635 --> 00:20:23.417
advantages that that Drupal has.

00:20:23.538 --> 00:20:24.798
And that's something that I think,

00:20:24.979 --> 00:20:26.759
you know, the leadership recognizes.

00:20:29.261 --> 00:20:29.481
You know,

00:20:29.541 --> 00:20:32.344
Dries had stated modules will always be

00:20:32.384 --> 00:20:34.625
GPL forever free, you know.

00:20:35.393 --> 00:20:39.494
and it's it's the themes that you know

00:20:39.575 --> 00:20:42.096
that that that could be commercial code so

00:20:42.155 --> 00:20:45.196
back when i was like back when i

00:20:45.217 --> 00:20:47.817
was like researching like like doing a

00:20:47.837 --> 00:20:49.338
little bit of due diligence like can i

00:20:49.358 --> 00:20:51.359
do drip yard you know so i started

00:20:51.380 --> 00:20:53.661
looking into gpl and like everything

00:20:53.681 --> 00:20:55.882
because gpl for those who don't know has

00:20:55.902 --> 00:20:58.363
a very sticky license you know where like

00:20:58.522 --> 00:20:59.163
if if

00:20:59.806 --> 00:21:02.626
If you write PHP that builds on top

00:21:02.666 --> 00:21:04.606
of Drupal or WordPress and then distribute

00:21:04.626 --> 00:21:06.166
it, it's technically GPL,

00:21:06.528 --> 00:21:07.448
which means it's free.

00:21:08.188 --> 00:21:10.407
And, um,

00:21:10.448 --> 00:21:13.108
but that doesn't necessarily apply to

00:21:13.148 --> 00:21:16.349
things that it's a little bit of legalese,

00:21:16.490 --> 00:21:19.309
but like things that are not directly

00:21:19.410 --> 00:21:20.270
interfacing with that.

00:21:20.290 --> 00:21:21.691
So things that can run in the browser.

00:21:22.380 --> 00:21:25.801
things like CSS and JavaScript will not

00:21:25.842 --> 00:21:26.961
necessarily be GPL.

00:21:27.363 --> 00:21:28.563
And I did a little bit of digging

00:21:28.603 --> 00:21:30.723
and there's a Drupal licensing working

00:21:30.743 --> 00:21:31.345
group, you know,

00:21:31.365 --> 00:21:32.904
and there was some talk about that.

00:21:33.184 --> 00:21:35.946
And the conclusion that I saw within this

00:21:36.027 --> 00:21:37.167
issue is yeah,

00:21:37.248 --> 00:21:40.909
like CSS and JavaScript is not necessarily

00:21:41.430 --> 00:21:41.950
GPL.

00:21:42.589 --> 00:21:44.290
So at that point I was like,

00:21:44.310 --> 00:21:45.132
all right, well, we can do this.

00:21:45.152 --> 00:21:46.311
We can just kind of, you know,

00:21:46.432 --> 00:21:48.712
have our CSS and everything closed source.

00:21:51.067 --> 00:21:55.951
The TLDR of all of this is that,

00:21:56.530 --> 00:22:00.574
like, it's kind of like a fine line,

00:22:00.614 --> 00:22:01.194
you know?

00:22:01.414 --> 00:22:02.375
Like, you can't...

00:22:05.269 --> 00:22:07.451
like it's not necessarily a good idea for

00:22:07.611 --> 00:22:09.813
everything to cost money and,

00:22:09.992 --> 00:22:11.614
and then people don't collaborate,

00:22:11.673 --> 00:22:12.134
you know?

00:22:13.035 --> 00:22:14.836
But at the same time you need money

00:22:14.916 --> 00:22:16.178
because people need to get paid.

00:22:16.397 --> 00:22:16.617
Right.

00:22:16.938 --> 00:22:19.079
Like I am doing this because to tell

00:22:19.099 --> 00:22:20.441
you the truth, like I want to,

00:22:20.922 --> 00:22:22.182
I want to be able to make six

00:22:22.222 --> 00:22:24.423
figures and work twenty hours a week.

00:22:24.443 --> 00:22:26.286
That is my dream, you know?

00:22:26.586 --> 00:22:30.249
And, and yeah,

00:22:30.288 --> 00:22:31.849
so it's going to be a fine line.

00:22:31.930 --> 00:22:33.912
I have a feeling that like as we,

00:22:35.019 --> 00:22:35.559
As, as,

00:22:35.740 --> 00:22:39.522
as Drupal continues to like continue down

00:22:39.542 --> 00:22:40.864
this path, there are going to be,

00:22:41.663 --> 00:22:41.983
you know,

00:22:42.023 --> 00:22:43.325
changes and people are going to figure

00:22:43.345 --> 00:22:43.704
things out.

00:22:43.765 --> 00:22:44.385
People like,

00:22:44.486 --> 00:22:46.886
like Drupal is going to make mistakes and

00:22:46.906 --> 00:22:47.867
they're going to say like, all right,

00:22:48.167 --> 00:22:50.028
well, let's back this up a little bit,

00:22:50.509 --> 00:22:51.950
or maybe we should go forward a little

00:22:51.990 --> 00:22:52.550
bit more, you know,

00:22:52.570 --> 00:22:54.571
maybe we're not doing this enough.

00:22:54.692 --> 00:22:55.291
Yeah.

00:22:55.332 --> 00:22:56.873
So I think it's going to be trial

00:22:56.893 --> 00:22:57.673
and error.

00:22:57.773 --> 00:22:57.913
Yeah.

00:22:58.628 --> 00:22:58.929
Yeah,

00:22:58.949 --> 00:23:02.953
that's interesting about modules being

00:23:03.253 --> 00:23:06.557
different and the marketplace not being

00:23:06.597 --> 00:23:09.261
handled or not covering modules

00:23:09.301 --> 00:23:11.644
necessarily versus themes and themes being

00:23:11.683 --> 00:23:13.586
the thing that we're talking about first.

00:23:14.047 --> 00:23:15.347
I think that makes a lot of sense,

00:23:15.807 --> 00:23:17.509
both from sort of Drupal's history,

00:23:17.929 --> 00:23:20.090
but also like creating,

00:23:20.730 --> 00:23:22.571
like not shutting off that sort of

00:23:22.612 --> 00:23:23.271
collaborations,

00:23:23.353 --> 00:23:25.074
which I do recognize I think happens a

00:23:25.094 --> 00:23:26.673
lot more in modules because like you said,

00:23:26.734 --> 00:23:28.234
like you can have dependency modules and

00:23:28.275 --> 00:23:28.635
whatever,

00:23:28.695 --> 00:23:30.537
like this module calls these other three

00:23:30.576 --> 00:23:31.416
modules and whatever,

00:23:31.436 --> 00:23:32.518
and you do need to sort of like

00:23:32.557 --> 00:23:33.618
keep that ecosystem.

00:23:34.838 --> 00:23:35.480
In WordPress,

00:23:35.500 --> 00:23:37.580
there is kind of sort of an equivalent.

00:23:37.861 --> 00:23:40.603
There are like plugins that are like

00:23:41.103 --> 00:23:42.763
add-ons or additional features

00:23:42.943 --> 00:23:44.946
functionality to an existing plugin and

00:23:45.007 --> 00:23:47.490
maybe that existing plugin is a premium

00:23:47.509 --> 00:23:50.493
plugin or maybe it's like a free plugin

00:23:50.574 --> 00:23:53.538
and the extension is is a premium thing

00:23:53.577 --> 00:23:55.000
or whatever like there's all sorts of like

00:23:55.059 --> 00:23:57.763
weird things like that but

00:23:59.385 --> 00:24:00.866
but yeah i think that that's interesting

00:24:00.987 --> 00:24:04.429
do you see a future where there might

00:24:04.450 --> 00:24:07.371
be also a module marketplace both like you

00:24:07.391 --> 00:24:09.032
know besides drupal.org and getting your

00:24:09.073 --> 00:24:10.554
stuff like normally that way but like

00:24:10.574 --> 00:24:13.095
having like a like the equivalent of like

00:24:13.134 --> 00:24:15.217
an envato sort of thing where you could

00:24:15.376 --> 00:24:17.778
like purchase and and integrate like

00:24:17.999 --> 00:24:21.520
premium uh modules for drupal i would be

00:24:21.641 --> 00:24:24.363
really really surprised there are like

00:24:24.403 --> 00:24:26.804
some modules that like kind of do the

00:24:26.824 --> 00:24:29.086
whole gpl loophole and put some processing

00:24:29.673 --> 00:24:31.473
processing on the server, you know,

00:24:31.513 --> 00:24:32.535
that's kind of how they,

00:24:33.134 --> 00:24:33.776
how they do it.

00:24:33.816 --> 00:24:36.218
So there's, there's things like that.

00:24:36.498 --> 00:24:37.999
I can't see any,

00:24:38.378 --> 00:24:42.422
any Envato type marketplace for, for,

00:24:42.602 --> 00:24:43.342
for modules.

00:24:43.702 --> 00:24:44.603
I think if that happened,

00:24:44.682 --> 00:24:46.644
people would kind of get pissed and then

00:24:46.684 --> 00:24:48.586
just like download it and throw it up

00:24:48.625 --> 00:24:49.967
on Drupal.org or GitHub or something like

00:24:49.987 --> 00:24:52.568
that, which has happened in the past,

00:24:52.689 --> 00:24:53.028
you know?

00:24:53.368 --> 00:24:54.349
It happens in WordPress too.

00:24:54.369 --> 00:24:54.450
Yeah.

00:24:55.391 --> 00:24:55.570
Yeah.

00:24:56.345 --> 00:24:57.285
And it's interesting,

00:24:57.346 --> 00:24:58.806
like it's an interesting topic, right?

00:24:58.846 --> 00:25:00.146
So if I sell a site template,

00:25:00.186 --> 00:25:01.607
let's say I sell this for like a

00:25:01.627 --> 00:25:03.248
thousand dollars and I have my theme and

00:25:03.327 --> 00:25:05.088
also like has, you know,

00:25:05.108 --> 00:25:06.769
a composer file that references a bunch of

00:25:06.809 --> 00:25:07.230
modules.

00:25:07.250 --> 00:25:11.051
These modules are key components to this

00:25:11.652 --> 00:25:12.272
site template.

00:25:12.452 --> 00:25:14.012
Well, I'm making all the profit of that.

00:25:14.114 --> 00:25:17.355
These module maintainers aren't making

00:25:17.375 --> 00:25:18.174
shit, you know?

00:25:18.635 --> 00:25:19.415
I don't know if I can say that

00:25:19.435 --> 00:25:20.477
word, but I just did.

00:25:22.037 --> 00:25:23.557
I'll flag the explicit tag.

00:25:23.577 --> 00:25:24.317
It's not a problem.

00:25:24.337 --> 00:25:24.838
Yeah, yeah.

00:25:27.641 --> 00:25:28.441
You know, and that goes,

00:25:28.922 --> 00:25:30.363
but that also goes all the way down,

00:25:30.442 --> 00:25:32.483
you know, like, well, at that point,

00:25:32.824 --> 00:25:35.144
the core maintainers and the core

00:25:35.164 --> 00:25:36.746
developers are not getting paid, you know,

00:25:36.846 --> 00:25:38.626
the Apache developers or NGINX.

00:25:41.348 --> 00:25:42.529
And also, like,

00:25:43.549 --> 00:25:46.291
the argument would be that, well,

00:25:46.872 --> 00:25:50.094
these module maintainers and developers

00:25:50.134 --> 00:25:51.615
have been doing kind of unpaid work.

00:25:52.510 --> 00:25:54.792
unpaid labor for years and years while

00:25:54.873 --> 00:25:55.773
other people are making money,

00:25:55.794 --> 00:25:57.154
you have agencies, you know,

00:25:57.255 --> 00:25:57.816
like agencies,

00:25:57.836 --> 00:25:58.916
I used to work for a company called

00:25:58.936 --> 00:26:01.739
Lullabot and they would put together these

00:26:01.979 --> 00:26:04.101
great websites for these large companies

00:26:04.260 --> 00:26:06.022
were for multimillion dollar contracts.

00:26:06.903 --> 00:26:09.026
And, and, you know,

00:26:10.126 --> 00:26:12.248
does that money go toward those module

00:26:12.268 --> 00:26:12.749
developers?

00:26:12.848 --> 00:26:14.309
No, I mean, to be fair,

00:26:14.329 --> 00:26:15.391
there are some, there's a,

00:26:15.411 --> 00:26:16.873
there's a number that would work at that

00:26:16.913 --> 00:26:19.474
company, but still, you know, so,

00:26:20.711 --> 00:26:23.535
It's a really interesting ecosystem.

00:26:23.694 --> 00:26:28.701
Open source is really interesting and how

00:26:28.781 --> 00:26:30.463
that works and how that can work.

00:26:32.145 --> 00:26:32.988
Yeah.

00:26:33.008 --> 00:26:33.508
I'm interested...

00:26:35.215 --> 00:26:37.136
So one of the things that happens a

00:26:37.196 --> 00:26:40.717
lot in the WordPress commercial ecosystem

00:26:41.377 --> 00:26:45.219
is that even though technically,

00:26:46.019 --> 00:26:48.058
because Matt Mullenweg has explicitly

00:26:48.098 --> 00:26:50.599
stated a number of times that he believes

00:26:50.740 --> 00:26:54.840
that all code in plugins and themes should

00:26:54.881 --> 00:26:58.082
be GPL licensed or GPL compatible,

00:26:59.041 --> 00:27:00.261
even when it doesn't have to be,

00:27:00.301 --> 00:27:02.162
because that's the spirit of the GPL,

00:27:02.542 --> 00:27:04.042
not necessarily the letter, you know?

00:27:04.823 --> 00:27:07.506
So he doesn't like things like Envato

00:27:07.566 --> 00:27:08.826
where they have mixed licenses or

00:27:08.846 --> 00:27:09.047
whatever.

00:27:10.008 --> 00:27:11.630
He's much more like everything should be

00:27:11.670 --> 00:27:12.190
GPL.

00:27:12.529 --> 00:27:13.691
And if everything is GPL,

00:27:13.711 --> 00:27:15.333
then that means anybody can take your code

00:27:15.413 --> 00:27:16.993
and then republish it and put it somewhere

00:27:17.034 --> 00:27:17.194
else.

00:27:17.234 --> 00:27:19.036
And now it's their code because that's

00:27:19.056 --> 00:27:20.277
what the GPL allows you to do is

00:27:20.297 --> 00:27:22.338
basically redistribute it as is.

00:27:23.319 --> 00:27:25.301
So the thing that most...

00:27:26.823 --> 00:27:30.424
premium WordPress plugins and themes sort

00:27:30.464 --> 00:27:32.987
of do is, okay,

00:27:33.547 --> 00:27:36.969
what you're paying for is access to

00:27:37.529 --> 00:27:38.150
updates.

00:27:38.931 --> 00:27:40.612
So they have a different update mechanism

00:27:40.632 --> 00:27:41.811
that so it's not going to be on

00:27:41.852 --> 00:27:43.333
like WordPress at all and get automatic

00:27:43.373 --> 00:27:44.013
updates that way.

00:27:44.554 --> 00:27:45.654
uh it's going to be through their own

00:27:45.815 --> 00:27:48.356
sort of homebrew update mechanism and two

00:27:48.396 --> 00:27:50.178
they're also selling support for a

00:27:50.999 --> 00:27:54.401
contracted period of time um is that sort

00:27:54.441 --> 00:27:56.482
of the model that you are thinking of

00:27:56.722 --> 00:27:58.584
uh for drip yard as well are you

00:27:58.624 --> 00:28:02.547
thinking that uh primarily you are selling

00:28:02.686 --> 00:28:07.049
the proprietary like javascript and css i

00:28:07.069 --> 00:28:08.290
mean you know like

00:28:08.871 --> 00:28:10.491
that is that is the thing that is

00:28:10.652 --> 00:28:12.752
that is being sold even if it's like

00:28:12.772 --> 00:28:14.054
you're selling it with a bunch of other

00:28:14.094 --> 00:28:15.934
stuff that is yeah technically gpl

00:28:15.954 --> 00:28:20.798
compatible so like we're definitely like

00:28:20.837 --> 00:28:22.638
selling support add-ons you know

00:28:22.679 --> 00:28:24.019
reoccurring and that's like a hundred

00:28:24.039 --> 00:28:25.140
dollars a year so that's not a heck

00:28:25.180 --> 00:28:29.502
of a lot of money um updates you

00:28:29.522 --> 00:28:32.744
know will people just will download the

00:28:32.785 --> 00:28:34.705
zip file from our you know

00:28:35.854 --> 00:28:37.474
when they log in, you know,

00:28:37.494 --> 00:28:38.855
get their theme and stuff like that.

00:28:39.457 --> 00:28:40.637
And then they can, you know,

00:28:40.698 --> 00:28:41.959
download their updates that way.

00:28:42.078 --> 00:28:42.838
And, you know,

00:28:42.878 --> 00:28:44.420
hopefully their changes will be in a sub

00:28:44.440 --> 00:28:45.701
theme so they don't get clobbered.

00:28:46.521 --> 00:28:57.349
But like, it's like, I can't really,

00:28:57.369 --> 00:28:59.371
I can't,

00:28:59.921 --> 00:29:01.162
it's going to be interesting to see how

00:29:01.201 --> 00:29:01.722
things go.

00:29:01.742 --> 00:29:03.525
I, I can't really tell you,

00:29:04.424 --> 00:29:05.465
I can tell you what we're doing,

00:29:06.106 --> 00:29:07.228
but I can't tell you what everything,

00:29:07.709 --> 00:29:08.690
everyone else is doing.

00:29:08.710 --> 00:29:11.132
Like, and yeah,

00:29:11.751 --> 00:29:12.853
I don't know if that really answers your

00:29:12.873 --> 00:29:13.314
question.

00:29:13.854 --> 00:29:15.336
I was, I mean, I was wondering from,

00:29:15.435 --> 00:29:16.737
from the perspective of,

00:29:16.876 --> 00:29:18.097
of drip yard specifically.

00:29:18.178 --> 00:29:18.439
Yeah.

00:29:18.459 --> 00:29:19.779
So it sounds like that you would like,

00:29:20.175 --> 00:29:20.576
Kind of,

00:29:20.635 --> 00:29:21.616
and that's one of the things too,

00:29:21.656 --> 00:29:24.057
like if you're gating access to the files,

00:29:24.397 --> 00:29:24.538
uh,

00:29:24.617 --> 00:29:26.097
because you have to be a logged in

00:29:26.178 --> 00:29:27.159
user and you have to pay to get

00:29:27.219 --> 00:29:28.719
the login in the first place, then,

00:29:28.940 --> 00:29:30.339
then that's, that's an easy way of,

00:29:30.539 --> 00:29:32.201
of making sure that people are,

00:29:32.580 --> 00:29:33.760
are paying for your stuff.

00:29:34.182 --> 00:29:34.402
Yeah.

00:29:34.521 --> 00:29:34.622
Yeah.

00:29:34.642 --> 00:29:35.082
We're doing that.

00:29:35.122 --> 00:29:36.823
And, and there's, there's like,

00:29:36.843 --> 00:29:37.403
to tell you the truth,

00:29:37.423 --> 00:29:39.144
there's like nothing stopping people,

00:29:39.624 --> 00:29:39.943
you know,

00:29:40.003 --> 00:29:42.144
from redistributing our stuff after,

00:29:42.325 --> 00:29:44.026
after they purchase it, you know, like,

00:29:44.445 --> 00:29:46.606
like we could sue them, but you know,

00:29:46.926 --> 00:29:48.247
we still have themes for a hundred

00:29:48.287 --> 00:29:49.488
dollars, you know?

00:29:51.087 --> 00:29:53.008
more than likely I'll end up spilling

00:29:53.028 --> 00:29:57.749
something on my DrupalCon or something.

00:29:59.150 --> 00:29:59.910
But at the same time,

00:29:59.990 --> 00:30:02.470
our thought process is, well,

00:30:03.029 --> 00:30:06.411
if you're starting a project with Drupal,

00:30:06.431 --> 00:30:07.851
you're probably spending significantly

00:30:07.891 --> 00:30:09.510
more than ten thousand dollars to spend

00:30:09.550 --> 00:30:11.031
like five hundred dollars on a theme.

00:30:12.332 --> 00:30:13.971
Add in some support seems pretty

00:30:14.031 --> 00:30:14.451
reasonable.

00:30:14.491 --> 00:30:15.432
And honestly,

00:30:16.232 --> 00:30:17.553
these themes that we developed,

00:30:19.420 --> 00:30:21.381
over ten months and I'm like probably

00:30:21.421 --> 00:30:23.362
thousands of hours, you know,

00:30:23.642 --> 00:30:26.163
and they're really good.

00:30:26.523 --> 00:30:28.344
You know, they're awesome.

00:30:29.045 --> 00:30:31.425
And it's going to save people tens of

00:30:31.445 --> 00:30:32.987
thousands of dollars, you know,

00:30:33.467 --> 00:30:34.247
by using these.

00:30:37.320 --> 00:30:38.361
So what I,

00:30:38.381 --> 00:30:39.781
we've talked a lot about Drupal and we've

00:30:39.821 --> 00:30:40.741
talked a lot about WordPress.

00:30:40.761 --> 00:30:43.882
What I often like to do, uh,

00:30:43.942 --> 00:30:46.942
is to really talk about, um,

00:30:46.982 --> 00:30:50.144
sort of what your journey to tech or

00:30:50.203 --> 00:30:52.144
web development was sort of like in the

00:30:52.183 --> 00:30:52.683
first place.

00:30:52.703 --> 00:30:56.204
Like, how did you get to be, uh,

00:30:56.224 --> 00:30:58.165
how did you get to be Mike Herschel

00:30:58.205 --> 00:30:59.445
co-founder of Dripyard?

00:30:59.486 --> 00:31:01.526
Like what, what led to, uh,

00:31:01.566 --> 00:31:03.247
to you just getting involved in this stuff

00:31:03.267 --> 00:31:03.846
in the first place?

00:31:04.510 --> 00:31:05.912
so i was born at a very young

00:31:06.031 --> 00:31:12.557
age i got i got into uh computers

00:31:12.617 --> 00:31:14.720
back in like i used to do technical

00:31:14.759 --> 00:31:16.201
support for dell and gateway computers

00:31:16.221 --> 00:31:17.563
before they like shipped off all that

00:31:17.583 --> 00:31:19.444
stuff over to india you know so i

00:31:19.464 --> 00:31:20.965
would talk to your grandmother trying to

00:31:20.986 --> 00:31:24.709
troubleshoot windows i moved up to up to

00:31:24.749 --> 00:31:26.351
gainesville and i got this job doing

00:31:26.411 --> 00:31:27.892
technical support over the phone technical

00:31:27.932 --> 00:31:30.173
support uh just because like i had done

00:31:30.213 --> 00:31:30.694
that before

00:31:31.490 --> 00:31:33.132
And it was this enterprise software

00:31:33.231 --> 00:31:35.054
company called Bar Systems that would

00:31:35.074 --> 00:31:37.915
interface between mainframes and regular

00:31:37.976 --> 00:31:39.116
networks and stuff.

00:31:39.137 --> 00:31:41.819
And it was so slow that we would

00:31:41.960 --> 00:31:43.321
just sit there and twiddle our thumbs.

00:31:43.342 --> 00:31:45.202
And the guy in the office next to

00:31:45.222 --> 00:31:46.684
me, he was doing these websites.

00:31:46.704 --> 00:31:49.346
And he was using Macromedia Fireworks and

00:31:50.107 --> 00:31:51.048
showed me how to do that.

00:31:51.068 --> 00:31:52.049
And I had to use Photoshop.

00:31:52.069 --> 00:31:53.530
This would have been like, like,

00:31:54.971 --> 00:31:57.173
And I would literally do all my designs

00:31:57.233 --> 00:31:57.973
and fireworks.

00:31:57.993 --> 00:31:58.755
We both would.

00:31:58.795 --> 00:32:00.476
And then we would slice it up.

00:32:00.536 --> 00:32:01.876
And we would just export it.

00:32:01.916 --> 00:32:04.358
And it was literally a table full of

00:32:04.419 --> 00:32:04.940
images.

00:32:05.019 --> 00:32:05.759
That would be your website.

00:32:05.779 --> 00:32:06.681
I remember those.

00:32:08.001 --> 00:32:09.323
That was awful.

00:32:09.343 --> 00:32:09.583
I hate those.

00:32:09.603 --> 00:32:10.743
I found some of those on my old

00:32:10.784 --> 00:32:11.224
hard drive.

00:32:11.244 --> 00:32:12.526
And I have some of those up on

00:32:12.746 --> 00:32:13.746
my GitHub.

00:32:13.826 --> 00:32:15.327
If you have some links or something,

00:32:15.708 --> 00:32:16.749
like show notes or something,

00:32:16.949 --> 00:32:18.150
I'll shoot you some links.

00:32:18.170 --> 00:32:20.050
You can see Spacer GIFs and stuff in

00:32:20.070 --> 00:32:20.211
there.

00:32:20.250 --> 00:32:20.351
Yeah.

00:32:21.211 --> 00:32:23.233
So I got into websites and I started

00:32:23.253 --> 00:32:25.315
doing like my brother's band's website.

00:32:25.335 --> 00:32:26.796
I did it at my brother's friend's man's

00:32:26.836 --> 00:32:28.076
websites.

00:32:28.116 --> 00:32:29.577
And I started like, you know,

00:32:29.637 --> 00:32:32.920
doing websites as a side hustle and stuff

00:32:32.940 --> 00:32:34.121
like that.

00:32:34.141 --> 00:32:34.842
I remember I would,

00:32:34.981 --> 00:32:36.502
I would put these ads on Craigslist for

00:32:36.563 --> 00:32:38.763
barter to do websites for like to have

00:32:39.045 --> 00:32:40.625
people do stuff for our house.

00:32:40.665 --> 00:32:42.047
And I ended up getting this guy who

00:32:42.067 --> 00:32:44.127
was starting a lawn care company.

00:32:44.749 --> 00:32:45.189
And, uh,

00:32:46.262 --> 00:32:47.523
We became friends, you know,

00:32:47.564 --> 00:32:48.905
you put in a sprinkler system and,

00:32:49.185 --> 00:32:49.546
and he,

00:32:49.605 --> 00:32:51.909
he said he had this website called, uh,

00:32:51.949 --> 00:32:53.410
or he had a domain name called gator

00:32:53.450 --> 00:32:54.851
tailgating.com, you know,

00:32:54.891 --> 00:32:57.693
and I'm a big Florida Gator football fan,

00:32:57.713 --> 00:32:58.954
you know, and I was like,

00:32:58.994 --> 00:32:59.615
I like tailgating.

00:32:59.655 --> 00:33:00.876
I'm like, let's do this, you know?

00:33:01.837 --> 00:33:04.941
So I, um, I started looking for CMSs.

00:33:04.961 --> 00:33:05.582
This has been.

00:33:07.886 --> 00:33:09.607
And I don't know why I didn't look

00:33:09.647 --> 00:33:10.548
at WordPress, but I,

00:33:11.009 --> 00:33:12.650
I looked at Joomla and I looked at

00:33:12.690 --> 00:33:15.090
Drupal and I chose Drupal to be honest,

00:33:15.131 --> 00:33:16.791
because it had an integrated forum,

00:33:16.811 --> 00:33:19.073
which is like such a funny thing to

00:33:19.113 --> 00:33:19.472
select.

00:33:19.492 --> 00:33:20.753
But then I kind of got into it

00:33:21.674 --> 00:33:22.515
and around,

00:33:22.615 --> 00:33:24.355
and I started doing like a little bit

00:33:24.375 --> 00:33:25.957
of freelance and Drupal, you know,

00:33:26.037 --> 00:33:28.278
I would just literally like do everything

00:33:28.317 --> 00:33:29.538
the wrong way, you know,

00:33:29.598 --> 00:33:31.059
like edit the files and core,

00:33:31.079 --> 00:33:32.220
which you're not supposed to do,

00:33:32.320 --> 00:33:33.141
et cetera, et cetera.

00:33:34.182 --> 00:33:34.942
And, um,

00:33:35.586 --> 00:33:37.865
I eventually made my way, like,

00:33:37.885 --> 00:33:39.987
I remember I Googled, you know,

00:33:40.846 --> 00:33:42.467
Gainesville Drupal just to see if there

00:33:42.507 --> 00:33:44.107
was what would happen, you know,

00:33:44.127 --> 00:33:44.768
and I found,

00:33:44.948 --> 00:33:47.428
I found this thing on groups.drupal.org

00:33:47.468 --> 00:33:49.628
that led me to Florida Drupal camp.

00:33:50.209 --> 00:33:51.949
And I went down there in early,

00:33:51.989 --> 00:33:53.430
and I was kind of hooked on the,

00:33:53.450 --> 00:33:54.230
I was like, holy shit.

00:33:54.289 --> 00:33:55.630
I didn't know that there was actual

00:33:55.690 --> 00:33:56.170
community.

00:33:56.210 --> 00:33:57.329
I thought it was just like a bunch

00:33:57.349 --> 00:33:59.671
of nerds developing this, you know,

00:33:59.691 --> 00:34:01.030
and they taught me how to do stuff

00:34:01.050 --> 00:34:02.030
that I didn't know how to do.

00:34:02.050 --> 00:34:03.112
I went home and I was like,

00:34:03.192 --> 00:34:04.711
so enthusiastic, you know,

00:34:05.352 --> 00:34:06.792
I ended up going the next few years

00:34:06.833 --> 00:34:08.493
and started volunteering and stuff.

00:34:09.355 --> 00:34:11.776
And I started looking for Drupal jobs at

00:34:11.796 --> 00:34:12.115
that point.

00:34:12.135 --> 00:34:13.978
I was working for the Florida High School

00:34:13.998 --> 00:34:15.979
Athletic Association at the time,

00:34:16.019 --> 00:34:17.720
just doing like all their computer stuff.

00:34:17.779 --> 00:34:20.261
And I migrated their like fairly large

00:34:20.301 --> 00:34:22.063
website to Drupal six at the time.

00:34:23.003 --> 00:34:24.525
And then I,

00:34:26.286 --> 00:34:27.567
I ended up, uh, you know,

00:34:27.766 --> 00:34:29.208
kind of getting more involved with Florida

00:34:29.228 --> 00:34:29.909
Drupal camp.

00:34:29.929 --> 00:34:31.829
I ended up, uh, you know,

00:34:32.190 --> 00:34:35.333
getting my job at Lullabot back in, uh,

00:34:35.452 --> 00:34:37.994
uh, and, uh, kind of just,

00:34:38.394 --> 00:34:40.036
kind of just went head on into Drupal

00:34:40.056 --> 00:34:41.077
at that point, you know,

00:34:41.137 --> 00:34:43.778
if I wasn't already there and I ended

00:34:43.878 --> 00:34:44.378
up, uh,

00:34:45.079 --> 00:34:46.300
getting involved in Drupal core

00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:48.983
development at Lullabot where, you know,

00:34:49.282 --> 00:34:50.864
uh, I, uh,

00:34:52.175 --> 00:34:54.677
I kind of got roped into leading a

00:34:54.717 --> 00:34:56.878
team to do a new theme for Drupal,

00:34:56.918 --> 00:34:59.159
where the previous theme for Drupal just

00:34:59.179 --> 00:35:00.501
had been around for so long.

00:35:01.280 --> 00:35:01.702
At the time,

00:35:01.762 --> 00:35:03.623
it was probably like ten years old,

00:35:03.663 --> 00:35:05.443
which is like a million in internet years.

00:35:07.565 --> 00:35:08.646
And so I went through that,

00:35:08.666 --> 00:35:10.166
and everybody was really happy.

00:35:10.467 --> 00:35:12.148
And I ended up doing a bunch of

00:35:12.208 --> 00:35:13.688
other cool stuff.

00:35:15.478 --> 00:35:17.858
And then I ended up quitting Lullabot for

00:35:17.898 --> 00:35:19.199
more money, you know,

00:35:19.239 --> 00:35:20.699
and then quitting that job for more money

00:35:21.460 --> 00:35:22.581
and I'm getting laid off.

00:35:22.601 --> 00:35:23.621
And that, you know,

00:35:23.681 --> 00:35:25.621
and then I was like, you know,

00:35:25.661 --> 00:35:26.523
that led me to here.

00:35:26.543 --> 00:35:27.242
And I was like,

00:35:27.543 --> 00:35:29.923
cause I had been mulling this company for

00:35:29.963 --> 00:35:30.503
a while.

00:35:30.583 --> 00:35:32.445
And I was even talking to other developers

00:35:32.485 --> 00:35:34.326
while I was still like, you know,

00:35:34.585 --> 00:35:35.985
in various different jobs about

00:35:36.045 --> 00:35:37.527
potentially starting this with them.

00:35:38.547 --> 00:35:39.068
And then I was like,

00:35:39.108 --> 00:35:39.907
this is going to be it.

00:35:40.268 --> 00:35:42.009
I'm going to, I'm,

00:35:42.028 --> 00:35:42.889
I just got laid off.

00:35:42.909 --> 00:35:44.110
This is going to be my kick in

00:35:44.130 --> 00:35:44.570
the ass.

00:35:44.610 --> 00:35:44.969
I'm going to,

00:35:45.878 --> 00:35:46.938
I'm going to start this up.

00:35:47.438 --> 00:35:49.639
And, you know, so I, I, uh,

00:35:50.300 --> 00:35:52.021
I reached out to my current business

00:35:52.061 --> 00:35:53.782
partners, guy named Andy Giles,

00:35:53.822 --> 00:35:55.324
who lives in Asheville, North Carolina.

00:35:55.364 --> 00:35:57.105
And he's a amazing backend dev.

00:35:57.125 --> 00:35:59.507
He's, he's, he's a horrible front end dev.

00:36:00.286 --> 00:36:00.527
And,

00:36:00.547 --> 00:36:02.168
but he's also like really good at things

00:36:02.228 --> 00:36:04.650
like DevOps and e-commerce.

00:36:04.869 --> 00:36:06.632
And he's a nice guy, you know, and,

00:36:06.652 --> 00:36:08.532
uh, we ended up, uh,

00:36:08.572 --> 00:36:09.452
I ended up talking to him,

00:36:09.574 --> 00:36:10.454
talking to him and I said,

00:36:10.494 --> 00:36:13.016
we're going to get rich, you know,

00:36:13.036 --> 00:36:14.077
all this type of stuff.

00:36:14.277 --> 00:36:14.637
And, uh,

00:36:15.324 --> 00:36:17.065
You know, I, I, you know,

00:36:17.965 --> 00:36:18.666
like money wise,

00:36:18.686 --> 00:36:20.606
we had to invest in some designers,

00:36:20.847 --> 00:36:21.146
you know,

00:36:21.186 --> 00:36:23.347
so we ended up at this point,

00:36:23.367 --> 00:36:25.128
we both probably threw in about like five

00:36:25.148 --> 00:36:26.929
grand into the business to pay for some

00:36:27.050 --> 00:36:28.291
designs, you know,

00:36:29.190 --> 00:36:31.512
and just a heck of a lot of

00:36:31.552 --> 00:36:33.052
work ended up taking the equity line of

00:36:33.112 --> 00:36:34.054
credit against my house.

00:36:34.074 --> 00:36:35.213
So I have something to live off of

00:36:36.835 --> 00:36:38.576
and ended up just

00:36:40.532 --> 00:36:42.034
I thought we were going to have this

00:36:42.114 --> 00:36:43.795
first theme out in like three months.

00:36:43.835 --> 00:36:45.076
It took like ten months.

00:36:45.675 --> 00:36:50.579
Because it's funny how much work goes into

00:36:50.840 --> 00:36:53.661
making sure your themes can support almost

00:36:53.742 --> 00:36:57.704
anything that the kitchen sink.

00:36:59.184 --> 00:37:01.246
But now we have this whole design system.

00:37:02.206 --> 00:37:03.427
We have a system behind everything.

00:37:03.467 --> 00:37:05.429
So it's really easy to kind of turn

00:37:05.449 --> 00:37:06.329
around new themes.

00:37:07.152 --> 00:37:09.496
at this point, but what we're, um,

00:37:10.438 --> 00:37:11.539
I guess the answer to your question,

00:37:11.559 --> 00:37:12.601
but I guess where I'm going with this

00:37:12.661 --> 00:37:13.001
is like,

00:37:13.182 --> 00:37:15.385
currently we're kind of working on, uh,

00:37:15.445 --> 00:37:16.909
making sure we have full support for

00:37:16.929 --> 00:37:17.590
Drupal canvas,

00:37:17.670 --> 00:37:19.172
which is that next gen page builder.

00:37:19.192 --> 00:37:20.494
That's going to come out in about a

00:37:20.554 --> 00:37:20.735
month.

00:37:22.335 --> 00:37:23.275
Yeah, tell me about,

00:37:23.735 --> 00:37:26.376
so I've been sort of watching the

00:37:26.496 --> 00:37:32.400
evolution of Drupal CMS since, well,

00:37:32.460 --> 00:37:34.641
I guess since January this year,

00:37:34.742 --> 00:37:36.302
pretty much.

00:37:36.844 --> 00:37:39.844
And I went back before I went to

00:37:39.885 --> 00:37:42.726
DrupalCon in Atlanta,

00:37:43.507 --> 00:37:45.568
I went back and I watched Dries' last

00:37:45.628 --> 00:37:47.230
two keynotes before that.

00:37:48.269 --> 00:37:50.251
And I watched the one from Vienna this

00:37:50.311 --> 00:37:51.751
last couple weeks.

00:37:53.632 --> 00:37:56.134
And I remember when I was in Atlanta

00:37:56.273 --> 00:37:58.576
and he was showing what was then referred

00:37:58.615 --> 00:37:59.876
to as Experience Builder,

00:37:59.896 --> 00:38:01.036
which is now Drupal Canvas.

00:38:01.996 --> 00:38:05.119
I was like... I tweeted... Actually,

00:38:05.358 --> 00:38:06.400
it's not tweeting if you do it on

00:38:06.420 --> 00:38:06.920
Blue Sky.

00:38:07.139 --> 00:38:08.181
It's like bloot.

00:38:08.240 --> 00:38:08.721
I don't know.

00:38:10.581 --> 00:38:12.483
I posted on Blue Sky that...

00:38:13.427 --> 00:38:16.969
this looks like the thing that Gutenberg

00:38:16.989 --> 00:38:18.590
should have been all along.

00:38:19.530 --> 00:38:24.213
I was so incredibly impressed by what

00:38:24.333 --> 00:38:26.713
looked to be way more intuitive,

00:38:26.773 --> 00:38:28.835
way easier to use.

00:38:28.894 --> 00:38:32.056
And I've played with and installed Drupal

00:38:32.097 --> 00:38:35.699
CMS, and I fully believe... In fact,

00:38:35.719 --> 00:38:37.059
I wrote a blog post on the Pantheon

00:38:37.079 --> 00:38:37.820
blog about this.

00:38:38.260 --> 00:38:39.561
I fully believe that that is...

00:38:41.226 --> 00:38:43.307
a thousand times better experience,

00:38:44.289 --> 00:38:46.311
first-time user experience for installing

00:38:47.052 --> 00:38:49.195
a CMS than WordPress.

00:38:49.496 --> 00:38:50.856
And part of that has to do with

00:38:50.916 --> 00:38:52.739
like, it's more of like a guided install.

00:38:52.820 --> 00:38:53.920
It's asking you questions,

00:38:53.940 --> 00:38:56.963
but also it's asking you like,

00:38:58.346 --> 00:39:00.987
what type of site you want to create.

00:39:01.409 --> 00:39:02.909
And most,

00:39:03.411 --> 00:39:06.813
like every other CMS I've ever installed

00:39:06.833 --> 00:39:08.916
just gives you a bunch of form fields.

00:39:09.476 --> 00:39:10.777
And it doesn't ask you the question,

00:39:10.818 --> 00:39:11.798
what are you trying to build?

00:39:12.500 --> 00:39:14.440
And so because of that,

00:39:15.021 --> 00:39:17.923
uh you never ask the question of yourself

00:39:18.465 --> 00:39:20.065
what type of website are you trying to

00:39:20.085 --> 00:39:21.266
build you just kind of like oh well

00:39:21.286 --> 00:39:22.547
i'm just going to click a couple buttons

00:39:22.568 --> 00:39:23.547
and then i have a website and then

00:39:23.608 --> 00:39:25.188
i'm just going to do stuff right like

00:39:25.228 --> 00:39:26.250
but you never actually have to

00:39:26.309 --> 00:39:28.391
intentionally like come up with like no

00:39:28.472 --> 00:39:30.092
what am i actually trying to create and

00:39:30.112 --> 00:39:31.393
i thought that that was a really uh

00:39:31.414 --> 00:39:33.956
a really good like just like just slow

00:39:33.996 --> 00:39:36.016
down and like make this the process a

00:39:36.036 --> 00:39:37.619
little bit more more user friendly and

00:39:37.639 --> 00:39:39.820
then also when it when it installs like

00:39:39.880 --> 00:39:40.420
i feel like

00:39:41.061 --> 00:39:42.422
Like the user interface,

00:39:42.442 --> 00:39:44.922
which in the past for me as somebody

00:39:44.943 --> 00:39:46.563
who is more familiar with WordPress,

00:39:46.583 --> 00:39:48.485
the user interface and the Drupal admin is

00:39:49.045 --> 00:39:52.086
very complex and hard for me to navigate

00:39:52.126 --> 00:39:53.367
and know where all the stuff is.

00:39:53.427 --> 00:39:55.047
And it feels better.

00:39:55.088 --> 00:39:56.528
And maybe it's just because it looks more

00:39:56.568 --> 00:39:57.650
like the WordPress admin.

00:39:57.690 --> 00:39:58.050
I don't know.

00:39:58.750 --> 00:40:00.612
But it feels better for me to like

00:40:00.733 --> 00:40:02.235
in the Drupal CMS admin.

00:40:02.795 --> 00:40:04.277
I don't know,

00:40:04.317 --> 00:40:05.539
maybe just because stuff is on the left,

00:40:05.579 --> 00:40:05.878
I guess.

00:40:06.579 --> 00:40:06.860
But like,

00:40:06.880 --> 00:40:08.121
it feels like it's easier for me to

00:40:08.161 --> 00:40:08.963
navigate.

00:40:08.983 --> 00:40:10.324
So I guess my question is like,

00:40:11.306 --> 00:40:12.387
somewhere in here is the question,

00:40:12.427 --> 00:40:15.510
I think, which is like,

00:40:16.452 --> 00:40:17.974
Where do you see, like,

00:40:18.014 --> 00:40:22.376
do you believe that capturing the sort of

00:40:22.597 --> 00:40:24.177
mid-market or that first time user

00:40:24.217 --> 00:40:28.942
experience will be like the changing point

00:40:29.041 --> 00:40:33.405
for driving more Drupal adoption?

00:40:33.485 --> 00:40:36.128
I mean, I would say definitely, you know,

00:40:36.188 --> 00:40:38.009
like there's a lot more mid-market stuff.

00:40:38.432 --> 00:40:42.577
than uh enterprise market you know and and

00:40:42.717 --> 00:40:44.458
and honestly to tell you the truth like

00:40:44.478 --> 00:40:46.420
the enterprise people want the same crap

00:40:46.480 --> 00:40:48.181
as the mid-market people for for the most

00:40:48.240 --> 00:40:49.282
part you know they want to be able

00:40:49.322 --> 00:40:52.184
to assemble pages without having to like

00:40:52.224 --> 00:40:53.846
you know have a post-doctorate or

00:40:53.885 --> 00:40:57.588
something like that you know um like you

00:40:57.608 --> 00:40:59.090
know like i don't know if you're familiar

00:40:59.110 --> 00:40:59.911
with like um

00:41:00.474 --> 00:41:03.717
Adobe enterprise, uh, yeah.

00:41:04.117 --> 00:41:04.478
Yeah.

00:41:04.577 --> 00:41:04.858
Yeah.

00:41:04.878 --> 00:41:05.057
Yeah.

00:41:05.338 --> 00:41:06.259
Yeah.

00:41:06.298 --> 00:41:07.960
Like they have like nice drag and drop

00:41:07.981 --> 00:41:09.521
stuff, but they don't do what Drupal does,

00:41:09.621 --> 00:41:10.101
you know?

00:41:10.943 --> 00:41:12.664
And, but, but they ended up,

00:41:12.704 --> 00:41:13.744
they ended up selling,

00:41:14.105 --> 00:41:15.505
selling their product based on like

00:41:15.545 --> 00:41:18.027
showing that drag and drop stuff to the

00:41:18.068 --> 00:41:20.369
marketers and the marketers, you know,

00:41:21.090 --> 00:41:22.811
get super excited about that because it's

00:41:22.831 --> 00:41:24.373
pretty sexy, you know?

00:41:24.952 --> 00:41:26.233
And, and, and if, if,

00:41:26.373 --> 00:41:28.096
if we can match that and surpass it,

00:41:28.115 --> 00:41:29.896
which I believe we will, like,

00:41:30.300 --> 00:41:31.481
that's going to be a big deal,

00:41:31.961 --> 00:41:32.362
you know?

00:41:32.523 --> 00:41:32.623
And,

00:41:32.802 --> 00:41:34.063
and the same thing with like Gutenberg,

00:41:34.103 --> 00:41:38.347
like, like, like Canvas is built by,

00:41:38.708 --> 00:41:40.809
by looking at the lessons from everything,

00:41:40.849 --> 00:41:41.289
you know,

00:41:41.570 --> 00:41:43.710
from things like Gutenberg and AM and,

00:41:43.871 --> 00:41:45.532
and almost every other page builder out

00:41:45.552 --> 00:41:48.235
there, they were all evaluated as,

00:41:48.614 --> 00:41:50.396
as these technical requirements started

00:41:50.436 --> 00:41:53.318
coming in for Drupal Canvas, you know?

00:41:53.579 --> 00:41:55.880
And like, like,

00:41:56.539 --> 00:41:58.500
One thing that I really like,

00:41:58.659 --> 00:42:00.081
I've done a little bit of Gutenberg

00:42:00.101 --> 00:42:01.882
development under Drupal because there is

00:42:02.061 --> 00:42:03.762
a Gutenberg module for Drupal.

00:42:04.463 --> 00:42:07.304
But one thing that I really disliked about

00:42:07.483 --> 00:42:09.505
Gutenberg is you have to have almost two

00:42:09.545 --> 00:42:11.226
versions of your markup.

00:42:11.346 --> 00:42:13.226
You have to have the one that appears

00:42:13.746 --> 00:42:15.989
in the editor and the one that appears

00:42:16.289 --> 00:42:17.849
on the home page and stuff.

00:42:19.010 --> 00:42:22.351
And that's something that I

00:42:25.684 --> 00:42:26.405
with Drupal Canvas,

00:42:26.686 --> 00:42:28.266
like right now I'm in the process of,

00:42:29.007 --> 00:42:29.226
you know,

00:42:29.246 --> 00:42:30.967
making sure all of our components work

00:42:31.027 --> 00:42:31.327
well.

00:42:32.507 --> 00:42:33.929
And there's some funky things I'm having

00:42:33.949 --> 00:42:35.630
to kind of work through, but you know,

00:42:37.050 --> 00:42:38.990
it's, all this is kind of normal,

00:42:39.070 --> 00:42:39.632
but like,

00:42:40.592 --> 00:42:42.072
I add like an additional setting,

00:42:42.132 --> 00:42:43.532
like a prop or, you know,

00:42:43.572 --> 00:42:45.134
a slot and it just shows, it just,

00:42:45.333 --> 00:42:46.614
it's just like nice.

00:42:47.474 --> 00:42:47.934
And,

00:42:48.235 --> 00:42:50.255
and it's like to develop your experiences

00:42:50.336 --> 00:42:51.416
getting right up there.

00:42:51.817 --> 00:42:53.498
And then like coming back,

00:42:54.474 --> 00:42:57.155
from previous drupal page builders which

00:42:57.235 --> 00:42:58.934
was honestly a lot of them are like

00:42:59.476 --> 00:43:01.376
really kind of rough unless you did a

00:43:01.416 --> 00:43:03.056
lot of manual work like you can make

00:43:03.077 --> 00:43:05.157
these page builders awesome but that

00:43:05.177 --> 00:43:08.119
requires you know a person who knows what

00:43:08.139 --> 00:43:09.498
they're doing to install a bunch of

00:43:09.559 --> 00:43:13.199
modules configure them just so you know um

00:43:13.239 --> 00:43:14.820
but just like right out of the box

00:43:14.880 --> 00:43:16.541
it's just like nice you start dragging

00:43:16.581 --> 00:43:18.961
stuff you start copying and pasting stuff

00:43:19.362 --> 00:43:21.503
everything it updates on the fly

00:43:22.355 --> 00:43:24.295
There's a nice preview button.

00:43:25.135 --> 00:43:28.137
There's all these things that just feel

00:43:28.197 --> 00:43:29.036
very intuitive.

00:43:31.516 --> 00:43:32.318
So it's nice.

00:43:32.878 --> 00:43:35.398
And there's still a little rough edges.

00:43:35.557 --> 00:43:38.179
I go in there and I'm filing bugs.

00:43:38.898 --> 00:43:40.599
I find stuff and I'm filing bugs because

00:43:40.619 --> 00:43:41.500
it's not stable yet.

00:43:42.280 --> 00:43:45.860
But it's like head and shoulders above.

00:43:46.893 --> 00:43:47.193
you know,

00:43:47.275 --> 00:43:49.898
anything else that Drupal's done before.

00:43:50.257 --> 00:43:52.581
And, like, as far as, like,

00:43:54.222 --> 00:43:55.644
I like it better than Gutenberg, too,

00:43:55.684 --> 00:43:59.329
although Gutenberg, to tell you the truth,

00:43:59.369 --> 00:43:59.530
like,

00:43:59.570 --> 00:44:00.811
it's going to be interesting to see how

00:44:00.831 --> 00:44:03.875
that works out, you know?

00:44:03.954 --> 00:44:05.137
Yeah, I...

00:44:07.181 --> 00:44:09.302
So I've been in the last year or

00:44:09.362 --> 00:44:11.963
so been playing a lot more.

00:44:12.143 --> 00:44:15.405
So as Gutenberg has developed in the

00:44:15.425 --> 00:44:16.585
WordPress ecosystem,

00:44:16.766 --> 00:44:19.307
it's extended to be more than just like

00:44:19.327 --> 00:44:21.969
the block editor in content stuff.

00:44:22.849 --> 00:44:25.411
expanded to do more site editing things.

00:44:26.231 --> 00:44:28.431
The site that this podcast is,

00:44:29.092 --> 00:44:30.032
is the website,

00:44:30.052 --> 00:44:33.552
the Community & Code website is just a

00:44:33.612 --> 00:44:36.512
twenty twenty five like default theme and

00:44:36.632 --> 00:44:39.514
a bunch of customizations in the full site

00:44:39.574 --> 00:44:41.494
editor to change the different layouts for

00:44:41.514 --> 00:44:43.914
the different pages and the episodes and

00:44:43.934 --> 00:44:44.255
whatever.

00:44:44.295 --> 00:44:47.275
Like so like I can do a lot

00:44:47.315 --> 00:44:47.896
of stuff

00:44:48.476 --> 00:44:51.336
just using the tools that are core without

00:44:51.376 --> 00:44:54.719
having to build a theme at all or

00:44:54.739 --> 00:44:55.559
think about that anymore,

00:44:55.579 --> 00:44:56.599
which is pretty impressive.

00:44:56.800 --> 00:44:57.880
It didn't used to be like that.

00:44:59.360 --> 00:45:01.581
But it took a long time to get

00:45:01.601 --> 00:45:02.121
to that point.

00:45:02.161 --> 00:45:03.822
And for a long time, it was like,

00:45:04.811 --> 00:45:09.434
there's a lot of limitations that I was

00:45:09.534 --> 00:45:12.496
running up against and like, oh,

00:45:12.635 --> 00:45:13.657
I don't know how to do this thing,

00:45:13.697 --> 00:45:16.057
or I just need to change a line

00:45:16.097 --> 00:45:17.778
of CSS to fix this other problem,

00:45:17.818 --> 00:45:18.159
whatever.

00:45:19.079 --> 00:45:20.481
And it took a lot to get to

00:45:20.521 --> 00:45:22.061
the point where it is now.

00:45:23.161 --> 00:45:24.922
But it does seem like... I mean,

00:45:25.483 --> 00:45:26.983
demos aren't live.

00:45:28.184 --> 00:45:30.443
And so the proof is in the pudding

00:45:30.463 --> 00:45:31.543
when you actually start to use it.

00:45:31.563 --> 00:45:34.784
But what I've seen of Drupal Canvas,

00:45:35.465 --> 00:45:37.565
it feels like it's a better...

00:45:38.126 --> 00:45:42.547
It's further along that timeline to a

00:45:42.847 --> 00:45:44.228
usable thing than...

00:45:45.148 --> 00:45:46.809
a lot of the stuff that has been

00:45:46.989 --> 00:45:50.289
in WordPress core for the last couple

00:45:50.329 --> 00:45:52.391
years and then iterate it on to get

00:45:52.411 --> 00:45:53.391
to the point where it is now.

00:45:54.972 --> 00:45:56.391
Yeah, I can't really speak to like...

00:46:00.313 --> 00:46:02.293
I don't know WordPress nearly as well as

00:46:02.353 --> 00:46:04.614
you, and I haven't used it recently,

00:46:04.695 --> 00:46:06.436
so I can't really speak to how it

00:46:06.456 --> 00:46:09.496
feels compared to modern Gutenberg.

00:46:09.817 --> 00:46:11.597
Most of my Gutenberg experience comes

00:46:11.637 --> 00:46:11.918
within

00:46:12.713 --> 00:46:14.974
the context of drupal which is not not

00:46:15.034 --> 00:46:17.958
the correct specific flavor yeah yeah yeah

00:46:18.097 --> 00:46:20.199
yeah and i i can tell you that

00:46:20.300 --> 00:46:23.302
like there are some some things in drupal

00:46:23.322 --> 00:46:26.425
canvas that like you know need to be

00:46:26.465 --> 00:46:28.327
worked on and sure and i've been filing

00:46:28.367 --> 00:46:31.331
bugs and pinging the appropriate people in

00:46:31.411 --> 00:46:33.211
slack which i'm pretty sure they're

00:46:33.231 --> 00:46:35.835
probably you know oh oh crap here's

00:46:35.875 --> 00:46:37.976
herschel again you know but um

00:46:39.168 --> 00:46:40.329
But at the same time,

00:46:40.349 --> 00:46:41.849
a number of the bugs I found have

00:46:41.869 --> 00:46:45.592
become release blockers and things like

00:46:45.612 --> 00:46:45.771
that.

00:46:45.791 --> 00:46:46.411
And that helps.

00:46:46.992 --> 00:46:51.594
So it's going to take iteration.

00:46:52.094 --> 00:46:58.076
I think the success or failure on Canvas

00:46:58.376 --> 00:47:00.436
is going to be how it feels.

00:47:01.702 --> 00:47:02.744
How intuitive is it?

00:47:02.844 --> 00:47:03.625
How it feels?

00:47:03.905 --> 00:47:06.306
How many paper cuts are there?

00:47:06.346 --> 00:47:08.266
We can deal with a couple paper cuts,

00:47:08.286 --> 00:47:09.788
but if there's too many paper cuts,

00:47:09.807 --> 00:47:11.648
it starts to get really, really annoying.

00:47:14.251 --> 00:47:15.050
And on top of that,

00:47:15.451 --> 00:47:20.014
how well developers can extend it.

00:47:20.434 --> 00:47:23.795
If I want to inject XYZ or something

00:47:23.856 --> 00:47:28.139
in there into the editorial interface,

00:47:28.833 --> 00:47:30.295
How easy can I do that?

00:47:30.815 --> 00:47:33.056
Yeah,

00:47:33.277 --> 00:47:35.219
that's actually a really good point and

00:47:35.239 --> 00:47:36.579
something that I want to talk about too.

00:47:36.619 --> 00:47:37.800
And I know we're getting close to time,

00:47:37.820 --> 00:47:38.902
but I want to still throw this in

00:47:38.942 --> 00:47:44.065
because one of the things about that when

00:47:44.126 --> 00:47:46.909
Gutenberg development started forced

00:47:47.409 --> 00:47:51.572
WordPress developers to learn was the fact

00:47:51.592 --> 00:47:51.753
that

00:47:52.193 --> 00:47:52.793
Gutenberg,

00:47:53.193 --> 00:47:55.317
the decision was made very early on to

00:47:55.376 --> 00:47:56.898
make it a React interface.

00:47:56.938 --> 00:47:58.960
And so that meant that not only did

00:47:59.601 --> 00:48:01.304
WordPress developers need to learn

00:48:01.364 --> 00:48:01.884
JavaScript,

00:48:01.903 --> 00:48:03.365
but they also needed to specifically learn

00:48:03.385 --> 00:48:03.766
React.

00:48:04.106 --> 00:48:06.909
And the learning curve, like...

00:48:08.492 --> 00:48:10.994
Having played with React a little bit...

00:48:11.074 --> 00:48:13.576
I mean, not before Gutenberg, obviously.

00:48:13.956 --> 00:48:14.336
Why would I?

00:48:15.657 --> 00:48:16.898
But having played with it since,

00:48:17.099 --> 00:48:21.842
I do like using React coming from a

00:48:21.882 --> 00:48:23.403
PHP background because it makes a little

00:48:23.423 --> 00:48:25.126
bit more sense to my brain.

00:48:25.565 --> 00:48:27.128
But there's definitely a learning curve

00:48:27.148 --> 00:48:27.407
there.

00:48:28.688 --> 00:48:31.932
Talk about the developer experience for

00:48:32.012 --> 00:48:33.213
building things for Canvas,

00:48:33.233 --> 00:48:34.275
because as I understand it,

00:48:34.295 --> 00:48:35.996
it's not that same sort of like you

00:48:36.016 --> 00:48:37.699
need to learn a fundamentally different

00:48:37.798 --> 00:48:39.239
language anymore.

00:48:39.360 --> 00:48:40.300
Yeah, yeah.

00:48:40.420 --> 00:48:42.483
So if I want to create a component

00:48:42.643 --> 00:48:44.264
that works in and outside of Canvas,

00:48:44.405 --> 00:48:46.728
it's the same as creating a component

00:48:47.027 --> 00:48:47.768
outside of Canvas.

00:48:48.358 --> 00:48:48.699
You know,

00:48:48.820 --> 00:48:51.684
so I mentioned that Drupal has this

00:48:51.764 --> 00:48:54.206
concept of direct components,

00:48:55.489 --> 00:48:56.469
which are called single directory

00:48:56.510 --> 00:48:56.911
components.

00:48:56.951 --> 00:48:58.492
And basically, like within your theme,

00:48:58.512 --> 00:48:59.655
you have a component directory.

00:49:00.135 --> 00:49:02.217
And within that component directory,

00:49:02.237 --> 00:49:04.581
you have a directory for every single

00:49:04.621 --> 00:49:05.021
component.

00:49:06.221 --> 00:49:08.342
uh and there's two mandatory files for

00:49:08.402 --> 00:49:10.641
your component there's a twig file which

00:49:10.702 --> 00:49:12.862
is which is like the markup language that

00:49:12.882 --> 00:49:16.423
drupal uses it's like standard html and

00:49:16.443 --> 00:49:18.483
then some curly brackets you can put for

00:49:18.543 --> 00:49:19.824
loops and all that type of stuff in

00:49:19.844 --> 00:49:22.784
there and then there's a the

00:49:22.824 --> 00:49:24.626
component.yaml file the component.yaml

00:49:24.646 --> 00:49:26.365
file will say hey this is a component

00:49:26.425 --> 00:49:30.146
and then it'll also list the um

00:49:30.815 --> 00:49:32.257
type of data that that Twig file is

00:49:32.297 --> 00:49:32.817
expecting.

00:49:32.936 --> 00:49:33.958
You know, so you say like,

00:49:34.018 --> 00:49:35.057
I'm going to have a title,

00:49:35.217 --> 00:49:37.139
it's going to be a string and,

00:49:37.219 --> 00:49:39.360
you know, you can call it, you know,

00:49:39.920 --> 00:49:41.561
title or something, you know, or,

00:49:41.601 --> 00:49:42.382
you know, I'm going to have this,

00:49:43.021 --> 00:49:45.302
you know, portrait landscape checkbox,

00:49:45.583 --> 00:49:47.264
you see Boolean, you know,

00:49:47.344 --> 00:49:48.545
I have an array, all the,

00:49:48.605 --> 00:49:49.364
all this type of stuff.

00:49:49.405 --> 00:49:49.706
Right.

00:49:50.405 --> 00:49:51.967
And so,

00:49:52.226 --> 00:49:54.407
so it describes what the Twig file is

00:49:54.447 --> 00:49:54.907
expecting.

00:49:55.387 --> 00:49:56.429
And then you have a couple of optional

00:49:56.449 --> 00:49:56.728
files.

00:49:56.748 --> 00:49:58.070
You can have a CSS file in there.

00:49:58.449 --> 00:50:00.110
You can have a JavaScript file in there

00:50:00.170 --> 00:50:00.590
if, if,

00:50:00.940 --> 00:50:01.842
If it sees those,

00:50:01.902 --> 00:50:04.802
it'll automatically be loaded whenever the

00:50:04.822 --> 00:50:05.684
component is loaded.

00:50:06.143 --> 00:50:07.485
And you can also like put into the

00:50:07.505 --> 00:50:08.666
YAML file, you know,

00:50:08.706 --> 00:50:11.726
stuff for additional CSS files or,

00:50:12.427 --> 00:50:14.949
you know, dependencies on other type of,

00:50:15.289 --> 00:50:17.411
you know, stuff too, if you want.

00:50:19.030 --> 00:50:21.652
So at that point, you have a directory,

00:50:21.672 --> 00:50:23.693
I mean, a single directory component.

00:50:24.554 --> 00:50:28.597
And as soon as Canvas sees that single

00:50:28.637 --> 00:50:30.358
directory component, it'll be available.

00:50:31.432 --> 00:50:31.592
Now,

00:50:31.612 --> 00:50:33.173
if something is screwed up in the YAML

00:50:33.193 --> 00:50:33.715
file,

00:50:33.994 --> 00:50:36.137
like let's say like you got your YAML

00:50:36.217 --> 00:50:37.697
indentation incorrect or something like

00:50:37.717 --> 00:50:37.938
that,

00:50:37.958 --> 00:50:39.139
what's this kind of cool is you can

00:50:39.159 --> 00:50:40.599
go to like a little reports page,

00:50:41.061 --> 00:50:42.141
find your component in there and it'll

00:50:42.161 --> 00:50:43.483
tell you exactly what's wrong with it,

00:50:43.503 --> 00:50:44.943
which is super nice from a development

00:50:44.983 --> 00:50:45.603
experience.

00:50:46.784 --> 00:50:50.128
Um, but once that component is,

00:50:50.628 --> 00:50:53.110
is there and it's working, uh,

00:50:53.751 --> 00:50:56.132
like Drupal will know, Hey,

00:50:56.552 --> 00:50:58.235
this is a string.

00:50:59.215 --> 00:51:00.777
Uh, so I'm going to put a.

00:51:01.518 --> 00:51:03.099
you know, a little text field in there,

00:51:03.621 --> 00:51:04.840
you know, and you, and there's some other,

00:51:05.322 --> 00:51:06.402
uh, like stuff in your Yammer,

00:51:06.422 --> 00:51:07.422
you can add to say like,

00:51:07.463 --> 00:51:09.063
I want to load a rich text editor,

00:51:09.244 --> 00:51:10.505
you know, and there's,

00:51:10.706 --> 00:51:11.826
there's some stuff in there that says

00:51:11.846 --> 00:51:13.146
this, you know, you can say,

00:51:13.166 --> 00:51:14.467
this is an object and it's going to

00:51:14.487 --> 00:51:15.449
accept, you know,

00:51:15.509 --> 00:51:16.730
this is going to be an image.

00:51:16.809 --> 00:51:18.771
So that'll give you like a little widget

00:51:18.791 --> 00:51:19.632
to browse to,

00:51:19.751 --> 00:51:21.413
to an image load under your media library

00:51:21.432 --> 00:51:23.213
and stuff like that, you know,

00:51:23.253 --> 00:51:25.155
and at that point it kind of, it's,

00:51:25.275 --> 00:51:26.117
it's kind of works.

00:51:26.396 --> 00:51:26.597
So.

00:51:27.311 --> 00:51:29.413
the development experience for creating

00:51:29.452 --> 00:51:31.434
components is pretty, pretty good.

00:51:31.635 --> 00:51:33.255
There's a couple of rough edges,

00:51:33.576 --> 00:51:34.197
like a couple,

00:51:34.597 --> 00:51:35.898
and these are being worked on, you know,

00:51:35.918 --> 00:51:36.438
and I'm like,

00:51:36.918 --> 00:51:37.938
I'm totally on top of that.

00:51:38.840 --> 00:51:40.061
Um,

00:51:40.101 --> 00:51:42.202
but even the rough edges have workarounds,

00:51:42.362 --> 00:51:43.523
you know, and, and like,

00:51:43.802 --> 00:51:45.563
if you go to the drip yard blog

00:51:45.603 --> 00:51:45.903
and stuff,

00:51:45.923 --> 00:51:47.686
I actually blog about this type of stuff

00:51:47.706 --> 00:51:49.827
because it's kind of, it's kind of fun,

00:51:50.086 --> 00:51:50.947
you know, it's fun to,

00:51:51.547 --> 00:51:53.309
to like solve these problems as I'm doing

00:51:53.329 --> 00:51:55.451
this and, you know, um,

00:51:57.132 --> 00:51:58.552
As far as the development experience of

00:51:58.612 --> 00:52:01.554
extending the actual editorial interface,

00:52:02.094 --> 00:52:03.074
that's a good question.

00:52:03.134 --> 00:52:04.795
Like, I haven't done that, you know?

00:52:05.974 --> 00:52:06.295
Like,

00:52:06.815 --> 00:52:08.815
Dripyard's editorial interface is built

00:52:08.896 --> 00:52:09.635
within React.

00:52:10.056 --> 00:52:11.376
But that being said, like,

00:52:12.275 --> 00:52:15.277
when Gutenberg was, you know, started,

00:52:15.416 --> 00:52:17.257
what was this, probably like five, six,

00:52:17.297 --> 00:52:18.737
seven years ago or something like that,

00:52:19.978 --> 00:52:20.498
React,

00:52:21.099 --> 00:52:22.539
a lot more people know React than they

00:52:22.559 --> 00:52:23.059
did back then.

00:52:23.503 --> 00:52:27.748
You know, like React was common back then,

00:52:27.768 --> 00:52:29.190
but it's much more common right now.

00:52:29.829 --> 00:52:30.490
So like,

00:52:30.570 --> 00:52:32.172
I feel that people will be able to

00:52:32.193 --> 00:52:34.635
kind of jump in there and get into

00:52:34.695 --> 00:52:34.815
it.

00:52:35.135 --> 00:52:37.677
But that being said, like, you know,

00:52:37.737 --> 00:52:39.539
people have not yet because it's not

00:52:39.579 --> 00:52:40.760
technically stable right now.

00:52:40.780 --> 00:52:42.222
Like as of the time of this recording,

00:52:42.282 --> 00:52:44.025
it's a release can't like RC one,

00:52:44.045 --> 00:52:44.985
RC two or something like that.

00:52:45.025 --> 00:52:45.365
Right.

00:52:45.485 --> 00:52:46.487
Yeah.

00:52:47.211 --> 00:52:48.432
Yeah, but I mean, that's interesting,

00:52:48.472 --> 00:52:48.652
though,

00:52:48.672 --> 00:52:50.775
because fundamentally what I'm hearing is

00:52:50.956 --> 00:52:52.896
if you want to build something that can

00:52:52.936 --> 00:52:54.298
be used by Canvas,

00:52:54.699 --> 00:52:56.501
you don't have to learn a completely

00:52:56.541 --> 00:52:57.041
different language.

00:52:57.061 --> 00:52:58.121
And I think that that's huge.

00:52:58.141 --> 00:53:00.784
I think that's a really big thing that

00:53:02.186 --> 00:53:03.166
Canvas has going for it.

00:53:03.447 --> 00:53:06.047
and like you said like even even beyond

00:53:06.088 --> 00:53:10.329
that the the developer ecosystem today for

00:53:10.668 --> 00:53:12.650
people who know react or people who have

00:53:12.670 --> 00:53:14.230
encountered react is probably a lot

00:53:14.349 --> 00:53:16.630
broader and bigger than it was five or

00:53:16.650 --> 00:53:18.152
six years ago when we were talking about

00:53:18.331 --> 00:53:19.751
uh whether we were going to use reactor

00:53:19.811 --> 00:53:22.132
view to put into to build gutenberg on

00:53:22.172 --> 00:53:24.472
top of so yeah absolutely so like just

00:53:24.534 --> 00:53:25.713
the ecosystem is different

00:53:26.954 --> 00:53:27.235
Yeah, well,

00:53:27.255 --> 00:53:29.034
thank you so much for coming on, Mike.

00:53:29.235 --> 00:53:32.697
I appreciate learning about Drupal and

00:53:32.896 --> 00:53:34.818
having this extremely interesting

00:53:34.878 --> 00:53:37.418
conversation comparing CMSs.

00:53:38.860 --> 00:53:40.780
Where can people find you if they're

00:53:40.800 --> 00:53:41.721
looking for you online?

00:53:42.681 --> 00:53:43.481
That's a good question.

00:53:43.561 --> 00:53:46.163
So my website is herschel.com,

00:53:46.202 --> 00:53:47.563
and that's spelled with a C like there's

00:53:47.603 --> 00:53:48.463
no S's in there.

00:53:48.503 --> 00:53:49.905
So H-E-R-C-H-E-L.com.

00:53:50.773 --> 00:53:52.215
Dripyard.com is my company.

00:53:52.275 --> 00:53:53.574
If you're into Drupal,

00:53:53.755 --> 00:53:55.376
check out our blog and, you know,

00:53:55.416 --> 00:53:56.215
buy our stuff.

00:53:56.775 --> 00:54:01.617
I'm on like blueskyatmike.herschel.com and

00:54:01.677 --> 00:54:02.677
I'm on master.

00:54:02.697 --> 00:54:03.217
You can,

00:54:03.838 --> 00:54:05.119
I'm on like most of the things.

00:54:05.559 --> 00:54:06.260
Oh, on LinkedIn,

00:54:06.420 --> 00:54:08.659
I am Mike Herschel's disembodied head and

00:54:08.679 --> 00:54:10.460
it has like my head floating right there.

00:54:11.300 --> 00:54:13.481
And people have like come up to me

00:54:13.521 --> 00:54:15.063
at conferences like you're the disembodied

00:54:15.103 --> 00:54:15.282
head.

00:54:15.302 --> 00:54:15.402
Yeah.

00:54:15.762 --> 00:54:17.844
Hello, Mr. Disembodied Head.

00:54:17.864 --> 00:54:18.023
Yep, yep.

00:54:20.275 --> 00:54:20.536
Awesome.

00:54:20.675 --> 00:54:21.757
Well, thank you so much, Mike,

00:54:21.797 --> 00:54:23.878
again for coming on and for everyone else

00:54:24.599 --> 00:54:27.739
for listening either now or in the future

00:54:27.780 --> 00:54:30.802
if you're coming across this episode at

00:54:30.822 --> 00:54:32.063
some distant point in the future.

00:54:32.983 --> 00:54:34.284
And until next time,

00:54:34.603 --> 00:54:35.684
we'll see you on the internet.

00:54:35.724 --> 00:54:36.485
All right.

00:54:36.505 --> 00:54:36.945
Bye, everybody.