WEBVTT

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Welcome to Community & Code,

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the podcast where we talk to the human

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beings behind the commits.

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I'm here today with Troy Chaplin,

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a front-end developer,

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a WordPress engineer,

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one of the organizers of WordCamp Canada,

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and also the author, I believe,

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of the block accessibility validation

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plugin on WordPress.org that checks

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whether your Gutenberg blocks are

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accessible or not.

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Welcome to the show, Troy.

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Hey, thanks for having me on, Chris.

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Yeah, no worries.

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Tell us a little bit about yourself and

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what you do with WordPress.

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I grew up in a small town in

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Newfoundland.

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I found I was always involved in something

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creative, whether it be art, design,

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drawing.

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I drew constantly on walls and all kinds

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of stuff.

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So as I got older,

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I started to get into what ended up

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becoming graphic design.

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I spent the first ten years of my

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career being a graphic designer and doing

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a lot of print production materials,

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books, magazines.

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You name it, I probably did it.

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um but halfway through that point in my

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career i realized that that print was

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probably not going to be my future so

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i decided to start teaching myself web and

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a friend of mine had told me quite

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early on he had discovered wordpress and

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he said to me this is probably and

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he said to me look i found this

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really cool thing called wordpress and i

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think it might be something big we should

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kind of follow this

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And a couple of years after that,

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I got lucky to go and join my

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friend at Carleton University as a web

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developer.

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And we started the transformation across

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campus,

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moving away from a legacy content

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management system into a custom built

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WordPress enterprise solution.

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That's awesome.

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Yeah,

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I spent a lot of my early development

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career being afraid to call myself a

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developer.

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I refer to myself as a web designer,

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not a developer,

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because I also was way more into the

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like, graphical side of things.

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I taught myself HTML,

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but I didn't really consider that coding.

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I took, like,

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graphic design and things in college,

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and I was more, like, interested in that.

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But then I discovered by accident, really,

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that because I had a...

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I started learning WordPress also,

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and there's a point at which I...

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I was working with a local web designer

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who needed a back-end developer to do this

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thing for a site that he was building

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because he was really just front-end

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focused.

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When I didn't have to worry about the

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design stuff,

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I realized that I really liked doing the

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work a lot more.

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because you don't have to follow all of

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the trends.

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And that was a thing that my partner

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and I were freelancing.

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And that was a thing that was kind

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of a struggle is like the web design

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trends were always changing.

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We wanted to kind of put our own

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sort of mark on the sites that we

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built,

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but also we needed to like pay attention

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to what other sites were doing and looking

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like.

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And when I didn't have to make those

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calls, it made my job a lot easier.

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Yeah,

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design is a tough business because

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everybody's got their opinion.

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And

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know they all can look at something and

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and tell you exactly what they like and

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what they don't like and you know it's

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not always rooted in design principles and

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it it makes it really tough for myself

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myself i don't really think i was the

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best designer um i just had the

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understanding and i could take a design

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and i could create five other templates

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with it so that's where my strengths were

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and that's something that i leaned on

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quite heavily as i made the transition

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from a graphic designer into a web

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developer

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I got the opportunity to work with a

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really great web designer and it made my

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life easier by being able to take those

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templates and kind of just build them out

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into something bigger.

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But I really definitely enjoy the coding

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side of it more like taking those designs,

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seeing it come to life on page,

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seeing how users would interact with it

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and how they felt about the site and

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what their feedback was,

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was really exciting to me at the time.

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Being able to take something that came

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from my head and then put it out

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into the world and seeing people use it

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was really interesting to me.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Talk about a little bit about what it's

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like the needs or demands of working

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within sort of the EDU space,

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because I know that there's a lot of

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very sort of specific things that

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educational institutions are like very

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focused on and interested in that aren't

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necessarily the same as like a regular

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education.

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quote-unquote regular website or like an

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enterprise website actually there's some

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probably correlations with enterprise

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websites in some degrees um but like I

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know that the edo space edu space is

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a very sort of uh world unto itself

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yeah I guess there's just several areas

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like the world that I work within I

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look at it as as a typical agency

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style environment where you know

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while we do have one main brand and

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one template that we try to adhere to

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at all times there's eight hundred

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different sites and at least eight over or

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definitely over a thousand content editors

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and they all have different things they

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want different needs so

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I treat them as individual clients.

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And I think that's the best approach where

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we look at what their needs are.

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Now,

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I think what it makes us a bit

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different from enterprise is that you work

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with that one client,

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but we have to take that information back

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and figure out,

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is this something that can be used for

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a wider audience?

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And then what would those requirements be?

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And how can we make it so we

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don't build one-off things all over the

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place?

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And how can we leverage it for more

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goals?

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And is that collection of eight hundred

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sites,

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is that eight hundred individual single

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site WordPress installations or is that

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one massive WordPress multi site or is it

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like a combination of the two?

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So for many years we were doing single

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installations.

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I think at some point we got to

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maybe two hundred or so,

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two hundred and fifty sites and realized

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that

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maintaining these individual installations

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with individual file folders was not going

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to be sustainable for much longer.

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We looked at a bunch of different

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solutions,

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like DeployHQ was a really good one for

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us where that was able to deploy from

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GitHub and push up to our servers and

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it handled it.

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But again, it was slow.

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The process would take almost a full day,

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if not overnight.

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Myself and a colleague, Mike,

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had developed a tool called WordPress

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multi-tenant.

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So we took WordPress and we built a

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multi-tenant application with it.

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So we leveraged Composer.

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So we were handling all the installation

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through Composer.

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At the time,

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not a lot of premium plugins offered the

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ability to download with Composer.

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So we had started just maintaining our own

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repos with a Composer file to make our

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lives easier.

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And then through the use of symlinks,

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we were able to create an environment

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where we had one centralized set of

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resources from WordPress to the plugins to

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our themes.

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But then each of the individual sites

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would use a symlink to point to where

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that centralized location was.

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So we still maintained individual

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databases and individual installations for

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each site,

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but we finally were able to move into

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a singular code base.

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And that significantly improved our

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working life and our workflow and

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everything that comes with that.

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Um, now though, with our more modern, um,

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setup, we ha we're moving into a, a,

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a hybrid theme.

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We're not ready for block themes just yet,

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but we're moving into a hybrid theme.

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It's all Gutenberg powered.

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We've decided to go multi-site with that

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one.

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So we're currently going through a process

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of migrating those eight hundred and

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something sites into our new multi-site

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environment.

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Hmm.

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Yeah.

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Um.

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Is there, do you have,

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do you have like,

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when you're working with content editors,

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I know, so like, at Pantheon,

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one of the things that we do is

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we have this concept of upstreams,

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which is similar to sort of like the

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thing that you were talking about,

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where it's like,

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it's basically you have a centralized

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repository,

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you maintain that central code repository,

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you can put

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whatever sort of base plugins and things

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that you want in there,

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and then each site within that uses that

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upstream can also have their own custom

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code.

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And for a long time,

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Pantheon was really pushing people toward

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upstreams instead of multi-site.

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And then I kind of said,

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don't do that.

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Because there's a need.

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There's two different needs, right?

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And the way that I ultimately...

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articulated the difference between that

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kind of an architecture and multi-site is

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where if a singular database with

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overlapping users and a shared ability to

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pull up content from different sites,

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if that is a single database home for

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all of the data,

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is a feature and not a bug,

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then that's a good argument for

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multi-site.

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But if you want distinct stacks with

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separate governance over data and users

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and whatever,

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then it's better to do that as sort

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of a single WordPress site.

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Do you see that sort of same kind

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of tension too when you're working with,

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especially because I know that in some

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cases, not all, but in some cases,

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particularly under the EDU umbrella,

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they do want to have really distinct data

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governance and like, no,

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we don't want our users touching those

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users over there, even if they're like,

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even if they're only touching sort of

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superficially, like just, you know,

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shared database,

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but like not accessing those sites.

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Yeah, so in our environment,

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everything that we are doing,

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at least in this current multi-site,

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is public-facing.

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So we don't really get into the

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conversations of the data that's in the

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database from that level.

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We do actually have a setup in place

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where we build security groups that work

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with our Active Directory.

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And then,

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so if I add you into a security

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group, you have access to sites A, B,

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and C,

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but that's the limit of where you can

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go.

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We also leverage editor roles.

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So at least when you log in there,

00:11:11.416 --> 00:11:12.976
you don't have access to everything an

00:11:13.037 --> 00:11:13.557
admin have.

00:11:13.596 --> 00:11:15.557
And that's a wise choice to make sure

00:11:15.577 --> 00:11:17.359
that folks that don't really truly

00:11:17.399 --> 00:11:19.779
understand what plugins and themes do and

00:11:19.799 --> 00:11:20.321
what they're for,

00:11:20.341 --> 00:11:21.740
they don't need to understand that.

00:11:22.741 --> 00:11:24.342
We like to curate that editor experience a

00:11:24.383 --> 00:11:24.743
lot too.

00:11:24.783 --> 00:11:25.082
So that way,

00:11:25.123 --> 00:11:26.724
at least someone who's coming in can get

00:11:26.803 --> 00:11:26.964
in,

00:11:27.203 --> 00:11:28.725
get what they need to do done as

00:11:28.804 --> 00:11:29.705
quickly as they can,

00:11:29.865 --> 00:11:31.346
and then move out and go on to

00:11:31.426 --> 00:11:32.527
all the other things they need to do

00:11:32.567 --> 00:11:33.027
during their day.

00:11:34.111 --> 00:11:36.994
So HumanMaid worked with WP Campus over

00:11:37.033 --> 00:11:41.037
the summer to build out a sort of

00:11:41.177 --> 00:11:44.418
a state of WordPress in higher education

00:11:45.259 --> 00:11:45.759
report.

00:11:46.519 --> 00:11:49.361
And one of the results of that that

00:11:49.522 --> 00:11:51.563
I distinctly remember and have been

00:11:51.583 --> 00:11:55.726
thinking about basically ever since is the

00:11:55.787 --> 00:12:00.649
amount of sort of training that teams need

00:12:00.690 --> 00:12:01.691
to do

00:12:02.510 --> 00:12:03.772
and this could be whatever development

00:12:03.792 --> 00:12:03.932
team,

00:12:03.952 --> 00:12:06.134
whoever is touching WordPress the most,

00:12:06.815 --> 00:12:08.736
those teams need to do a significant

00:12:08.777 --> 00:12:11.279
amount of training to the actual users of

00:12:11.320 --> 00:12:11.759
the site.

00:12:12.981 --> 00:12:14.943
Just getting people familiar with and

00:12:14.984 --> 00:12:16.885
comfortable working with WordPress.

00:12:17.586 --> 00:12:18.967
Do you see that as well at Carleton?

00:12:20.219 --> 00:12:20.678
Absolutely.

00:12:20.859 --> 00:12:22.559
It's definitely a critical piece.

00:12:23.299 --> 00:12:25.980
I don't feel it's good for us to

00:12:26.061 --> 00:12:28.522
provide folks with a site and not at

00:12:28.562 --> 00:12:30.743
least give them some sort of an intro

00:12:31.163 --> 00:12:32.783
sort of overview tutorial,

00:12:32.844 --> 00:12:34.703
provide solid documentation.

00:12:35.544 --> 00:12:37.345
We're really big on video tutorials.

00:12:37.365 --> 00:12:40.206
So our process right now is when someone

00:12:40.245 --> 00:12:41.047
gets a site,

00:12:41.086 --> 00:12:42.647
we do offer them some training,

00:12:42.746 --> 00:12:44.467
whether it be them one-on-one or if they

00:12:44.488 --> 00:12:45.947
have a small group within their department

00:12:45.967 --> 00:12:47.328
or their unit that needs to manage

00:12:47.369 --> 00:12:47.708
content.

00:12:48.288 --> 00:12:49.269
So we do offer that.

00:12:50.149 --> 00:12:52.511
We also have a great site that offers

00:12:53.572 --> 00:12:55.153
a lot of written tutorials.

00:12:55.232 --> 00:12:56.234
And then we do a lot of video

00:12:56.274 --> 00:12:57.335
tutorials on top of that.

00:12:57.495 --> 00:13:00.196
And the person on my team, Charlotte,

00:13:00.216 --> 00:13:01.537
who had put all of that information

00:13:01.576 --> 00:13:03.097
together made a really nice flow.

00:13:03.138 --> 00:13:03.839
So it's almost like

00:13:04.558 --> 00:13:06.620
course style where you come in you start

00:13:06.660 --> 00:13:08.883
with like the first section you move your

00:13:08.923 --> 00:13:10.984
way deeper you get into the advanced stuff

00:13:11.024 --> 00:13:12.605
so she's really tailored something that

00:13:12.625 --> 00:13:14.486
you can follow along as if you're taking

00:13:14.547 --> 00:13:16.948
a course so i feel those are really

00:13:16.969 --> 00:13:19.010
important things for our end users to make

00:13:19.030 --> 00:13:21.212
sure that that they're comfortable but i

00:13:21.232 --> 00:13:23.754
also find that that by doing good training

00:13:23.794 --> 00:13:25.596
and offering good documentation it will

00:13:25.635 --> 00:13:27.357
reduce the amount of support we have to

00:13:27.378 --> 00:13:27.477
do

00:13:28.097 --> 00:13:28.859
Right, yeah.

00:13:29.419 --> 00:13:30.360
Did you ever look at,

00:13:30.780 --> 00:13:32.482
or at least during your time,

00:13:34.365 --> 00:13:36.586
has your team looked at other CMSs?

00:13:36.626 --> 00:13:38.168
Like, has Drupal ever been on the table?

00:13:40.269 --> 00:13:41.009
I don't think so.

00:13:41.289 --> 00:13:43.230
I mean, I kind of came into Carlton,

00:13:43.250 --> 00:13:45.292
I came here in,

00:13:45.392 --> 00:13:47.072
and at that time there was already a

00:13:47.131 --> 00:13:50.133
project in place to start moving, um,

00:13:50.253 --> 00:13:52.354
a few sites, those things, six sites,

00:13:52.394 --> 00:13:55.274
I believe into WordPress to do a pilot

00:13:55.315 --> 00:13:55.794
project.

00:13:55.855 --> 00:13:57.336
So at that time,

00:13:57.355 --> 00:13:59.476
like whatever decisions were made were

00:13:59.517 --> 00:14:01.116
already made before I kind of came on

00:14:01.157 --> 00:14:01.417
board.

00:14:01.697 --> 00:14:02.177
Um,

00:14:02.217 --> 00:14:04.057
so I don't really know how that came

00:14:04.097 --> 00:14:05.999
about.

00:14:06.099 --> 00:14:06.259
Yeah.

00:14:08.150 --> 00:14:11.732
Talk about Switchgears and talk about a

00:14:11.753 --> 00:14:13.714
little bit your involvement in WordCamp

00:14:13.734 --> 00:14:14.254
Canada.

00:14:14.835 --> 00:14:16.196
How did that come about?

00:14:17.696 --> 00:14:19.216
And maybe, I guess,

00:14:20.717 --> 00:14:22.918
what's a little bit different from your

00:14:22.979 --> 00:14:28.461
perception about the Canadian WordPress

00:14:28.903 --> 00:14:31.703
community that would be distinct from...

00:14:33.164 --> 00:14:33.544
you know,

00:14:33.585 --> 00:14:36.686
the rest of the North American WordPress

00:14:36.706 --> 00:14:39.785
community or other parts of the WordPress

00:14:39.865 --> 00:14:48.148
ecosystem besides your boots and A's?

00:14:48.248 --> 00:14:48.967
I got involved.

00:14:49.128 --> 00:14:49.888
I mean,

00:14:50.028 --> 00:14:52.089
I was an organizer for WordCamp Ottawa for

00:14:52.208 --> 00:14:54.688
several years before COVID happened.

00:14:55.389 --> 00:14:57.629
So now when all that sort of kind

00:14:57.690 --> 00:14:57.750
of

00:14:58.854 --> 00:14:59.913
I can't say went away,

00:14:59.975 --> 00:15:02.816
but when COVID wasn't the hot topic

00:15:02.875 --> 00:15:04.515
anymore and camp started to come back,

00:15:05.356 --> 00:15:07.538
there was a few folks from previous

00:15:07.557 --> 00:15:09.758
WordCamp Ottawa organizing teams that got

00:15:09.778 --> 00:15:11.438
together and they wanted to put on

00:15:11.479 --> 00:15:12.259
WordCamp Ottawa.

00:15:13.120 --> 00:15:15.780
So after going to that last year and

00:15:16.380 --> 00:15:17.961
talking to some of the organizers and some

00:15:18.001 --> 00:15:19.562
old friends there, and I said,

00:15:19.923 --> 00:15:21.822
I'm interested in helping out next year.

00:15:21.863 --> 00:15:22.423
What can I do?

00:15:22.464 --> 00:15:26.284
And then the call for new organizers came

00:15:26.384 --> 00:15:27.865
out and I submitted and

00:15:28.745 --> 00:15:28.946
You know,

00:15:28.985 --> 00:15:30.427
I wasn't able to make it to that

00:15:30.466 --> 00:15:31.187
first meeting,

00:15:31.307 --> 00:15:32.466
but I think they had already had an

00:15:32.506 --> 00:15:34.388
understanding that I was already committed

00:15:34.427 --> 00:15:34.967
at that point.

00:15:35.008 --> 00:15:36.928
So I remember getting a follow up.

00:15:37.208 --> 00:15:39.490
I believe it was from Shanta within a

00:15:39.529 --> 00:15:40.610
couple of days after that.

00:15:41.331 --> 00:15:42.910
And she said, Yeah, congratulations,

00:15:42.931 --> 00:15:43.912
you're part of the team.

00:15:44.152 --> 00:15:44.871
And, you know,

00:15:44.892 --> 00:15:46.993
we just kind of went from there.

00:15:47.413 --> 00:15:51.033
What brought you into the original

00:15:51.094 --> 00:15:53.754
WordCamp Ottawa group in the first place?

00:15:53.774 --> 00:15:56.876
What drew you to to the WordPress

00:15:56.937 --> 00:15:57.677
community in that way?

00:15:59.577 --> 00:16:00.558
I think it was just wanting to get

00:16:00.599 --> 00:16:01.099
involved,

00:16:01.158 --> 00:16:03.780
wanting to meet new people and find

00:16:03.880 --> 00:16:05.481
resources and get networking.

00:16:05.522 --> 00:16:06.523
Like we were doing a lot of the

00:16:06.543 --> 00:16:08.844
stuff at the times when we were learning

00:16:08.884 --> 00:16:09.304
as well.

00:16:09.365 --> 00:16:11.166
And you could go online and find all

00:16:11.186 --> 00:16:11.907
those resources.

00:16:11.966 --> 00:16:14.769
But there's also something about having

00:16:14.788 --> 00:16:16.870
that connection to be able to just message

00:16:16.889 --> 00:16:18.791
someone or have a chat with them and

00:16:19.451 --> 00:16:22.833
get that information and exchange stories

00:16:22.933 --> 00:16:23.354
and things.

00:16:24.254 --> 00:16:25.956
To me, it's one thing to go online,

00:16:25.975 --> 00:16:28.278
but I love communities like Slack,

00:16:28.317 --> 00:16:29.578
like what we can do on Make and

00:16:29.599 --> 00:16:30.899
what we can do on PostStatus and the

00:16:30.960 --> 00:16:32.640
people that are there and the resources

00:16:32.660 --> 00:16:33.140
you have.

00:16:34.201 --> 00:16:35.383
Those are very invaluable.

00:16:35.423 --> 00:16:36.643
So for me at that time,

00:16:36.743 --> 00:16:38.224
I wanted to become a part of a

00:16:38.283 --> 00:16:40.586
community and start to meet more people

00:16:40.605 --> 00:16:41.846
who had similar interests to me.

00:16:43.066 --> 00:16:45.969
The first WordCamp Ottawa happened at U of

00:16:46.269 --> 00:16:48.111
O. Sorry, University of Ottawa.

00:16:48.131 --> 00:16:48.871
I should clarify that.

00:16:52.876 --> 00:16:54.217
And I actually got to speak at that

00:16:54.278 --> 00:16:54.337
one.

00:16:54.379 --> 00:16:55.559
I applied to speak and I got to

00:16:55.580 --> 00:16:56.221
speak at that one.

00:16:56.240 --> 00:16:58.342
And that was my first experience with a

00:16:58.403 --> 00:16:58.943
local camp,

00:16:58.964 --> 00:17:00.384
my first experience with speaking.

00:17:02.246 --> 00:17:03.648
And I just wanted to become a part

00:17:03.668 --> 00:17:04.769
of that moving forward.

00:17:05.429 --> 00:17:06.150
It kind of goes back to,

00:17:06.311 --> 00:17:06.850
I think about,

00:17:06.951 --> 00:17:08.331
and I wrote a post on the WordCamp

00:17:08.732 --> 00:17:09.754
Canada site about this,

00:17:09.774 --> 00:17:11.654
about my first experience at a WordCamp.

00:17:11.674 --> 00:17:12.937
And I got lucky and I went to

00:17:12.996 --> 00:17:14.337
Toronto in two thousand and nine.

00:17:14.357 --> 00:17:15.918
And that was my first camp experience.

00:17:16.759 --> 00:17:18.160
And that was a really great experience.

00:17:18.181 --> 00:17:18.360
Like,

00:17:18.500 --> 00:17:21.264
I still have lasting friendships from that

00:17:21.323 --> 00:17:21.683
camp.

00:17:21.903 --> 00:17:23.164
And that was something that I really

00:17:23.625 --> 00:17:25.607
picked up on quickly is that that the

00:17:25.667 --> 00:17:27.288
friendships that you make in this

00:17:27.328 --> 00:17:27.809
community

00:17:28.867 --> 00:17:29.147
you know,

00:17:29.167 --> 00:17:31.308
are very strong friendships and they will

00:17:31.388 --> 00:17:32.529
be with you for a long time.

00:17:32.549 --> 00:17:33.630
And that's one of the beauties of a

00:17:33.670 --> 00:17:34.151
WordCamp.

00:17:34.171 --> 00:17:36.672
Like I walk away from WordCamps not only

00:17:36.692 --> 00:17:37.291
with knowledge,

00:17:37.432 --> 00:17:39.153
but new friends that I know I can

00:17:39.753 --> 00:17:42.115
reach out to and ask questions to at

00:17:42.154 --> 00:17:42.714
any point.

00:17:42.755 --> 00:17:44.195
And they're all going to be super helpful.

00:17:45.105 --> 00:17:45.345
Yeah,

00:17:45.625 --> 00:17:48.627
that was actually a thing that I wrote

00:17:48.647 --> 00:17:52.990
about in my recap post for WordCamp

00:17:53.010 --> 00:17:53.471
Canada,

00:17:53.571 --> 00:17:56.473
was that it's been a number of years

00:17:56.634 --> 00:18:00.196
since I've been to a WordCamp that wasn't

00:18:00.757 --> 00:18:01.577
a big WordCamp,

00:18:01.597 --> 00:18:06.102
that was a more local WordCamp.

00:18:06.241 --> 00:18:08.463
And WordCamp Canada is kind of a weird

00:18:08.663 --> 00:18:09.084
outlier,

00:18:09.104 --> 00:18:10.684
we can talk about that in a second

00:18:10.724 --> 00:18:11.346
too, but like,

00:18:11.846 --> 00:18:13.567
It's still capped at like,

00:18:13.586 --> 00:18:14.787
two-fifty people, right?

00:18:14.826 --> 00:18:15.886
So like, something like that.

00:18:16.288 --> 00:18:20.608
So it's still, compared to US or EU,

00:18:20.749 --> 00:18:22.128
it's significantly smaller.

00:18:22.930 --> 00:18:25.109
And that's about the size of WordCamp Salt

00:18:25.130 --> 00:18:26.490
Lake City when I was running that.

00:18:27.090 --> 00:18:28.991
That's probably where we sort of maxed out

00:18:29.071 --> 00:18:30.392
at, is that sort of range.

00:18:31.893 --> 00:18:32.133
And it...

00:18:32.893 --> 00:18:35.256
The thing that I took away the most

00:18:35.496 --> 00:18:38.838
from that was that it really felt like

00:18:39.160 --> 00:18:41.903
all WordCamps to a degree for me at

00:18:41.923 --> 00:18:42.522
this point,

00:18:42.542 --> 00:18:44.786
since I've been around the WordPress

00:18:44.826 --> 00:18:46.366
ecosystem for a long time,

00:18:47.307 --> 00:18:49.651
feel like an opportunity to reconnect with

00:18:49.711 --> 00:18:50.352
old friends,

00:18:50.372 --> 00:18:51.452
people that I worked with at other

00:18:51.532 --> 00:18:52.273
agencies, whatever.

00:18:53.714 --> 00:18:55.076
But it really felt like,

00:18:56.218 --> 00:18:57.578
because it was smaller,

00:18:58.019 --> 00:19:00.020
it felt even more concentrated.

00:19:00.102 --> 00:19:01.462
And it felt like, no,

00:19:01.502 --> 00:19:05.307
these are people that I'm happy to spend

00:19:05.366 --> 00:19:05.866
time with.

00:19:06.508 --> 00:19:07.169
Even the new people,

00:19:07.209 --> 00:19:09.270
even the people that I just met at

00:19:09.290 --> 00:19:09.750
the event.

00:19:09.830 --> 00:19:11.333
And that was one of the things that

00:19:11.613 --> 00:19:14.596
I really took away from being at WordCamp

00:19:14.615 --> 00:19:14.895
Canada.

00:19:16.678 --> 00:19:17.638
From your perspective,

00:19:17.659 --> 00:19:21.082
having organized or been involved in

00:19:21.162 --> 00:19:24.163
WordCamp Ottawa and WordCamp Canada,

00:19:24.825 --> 00:19:28.007
were there any differences in how the

00:19:28.347 --> 00:19:32.631
Canadian WordCamp was organized versus the

00:19:32.871 --> 00:19:34.932
Ottawa, the sort of local WordCamp?

00:19:36.979 --> 00:19:38.179
Yeah, I think there was quite a few.

00:19:38.219 --> 00:19:39.039
But before that,

00:19:39.099 --> 00:19:40.619
there was a question that you had posed

00:19:40.680 --> 00:19:42.181
a bit earlier about the differences

00:19:42.221 --> 00:19:44.461
between a WordCamp in Canada versus a

00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:45.981
WordCamp in the U.S.

00:19:46.041 --> 00:19:46.201
Now,

00:19:46.362 --> 00:19:48.663
I haven't gone to a lot of camps

00:19:48.803 --> 00:19:49.563
outside of Canada.

00:19:49.583 --> 00:19:51.762
I got to go to the last San

00:19:51.782 --> 00:19:52.304
Fran, actually,

00:19:52.364 --> 00:19:53.884
right before it became WordCamp U.S.

00:19:53.943 --> 00:19:55.785
I was in San Francisco in twenty fourteen.

00:19:55.805 --> 00:19:55.904
Yeah.

00:19:56.464 --> 00:19:56.724
Oh, yeah.

00:19:57.045 --> 00:19:57.625
Nice.

00:19:57.664 --> 00:19:59.486
So that was so large to me.

00:20:00.465 --> 00:20:02.547
That was very overwhelming.

00:20:02.987 --> 00:20:04.666
I come from a really small town.

00:20:05.307 --> 00:20:07.407
Ottawa, I call it the big city,

00:20:07.428 --> 00:20:08.328
but a little town.

00:20:10.729 --> 00:20:11.390
It was a lot.

00:20:11.410 --> 00:20:12.589
It was a lot to take in.

00:20:13.230 --> 00:20:15.711
What I find the biggest difference is the

00:20:15.851 --> 00:20:16.471
scale.

00:20:17.652 --> 00:20:19.251
I find it, like you just mentioned,

00:20:19.271 --> 00:20:20.772
coming to something like WordCamp with

00:20:20.853 --> 00:20:21.633
less people,

00:20:22.053 --> 00:20:24.374
it just felt more personal and you were

00:20:24.453 --> 00:20:26.614
talking to some of the folks for longer

00:20:26.634 --> 00:20:27.775
periods of time because you weren't

00:20:28.535 --> 00:20:28.734
You know,

00:20:28.755 --> 00:20:30.476
surrounded by like a couple thousand

00:20:30.516 --> 00:20:30.695
people,

00:20:30.715 --> 00:20:31.896
you're surrounded by a couple hundred

00:20:31.916 --> 00:20:32.136
people.

00:20:32.156 --> 00:20:34.538
So those conversations I find can get a

00:20:34.578 --> 00:20:36.220
bit more intimate or they can go on

00:20:36.240 --> 00:20:37.681
for longer because you're not trying to

00:20:37.721 --> 00:20:39.061
figure out who do I need to go

00:20:39.102 --> 00:20:40.321
see now or who can I go meet?

00:20:40.402 --> 00:20:40.942
Oh, no,

00:20:40.962 --> 00:20:42.223
that's that person over there that I want

00:20:42.243 --> 00:20:42.644
to go see.

00:20:42.763 --> 00:20:44.125
Right.

00:20:44.184 --> 00:20:45.605
I just that's what I found from from

00:20:45.645 --> 00:20:47.747
San Fran compared to what we do up

00:20:47.787 --> 00:20:48.346
here in Canada.

00:20:48.366 --> 00:20:48.907
Yeah.

00:20:48.968 --> 00:20:49.188
Yeah.

00:20:49.738 --> 00:20:49.958
Yeah,

00:20:50.198 --> 00:20:51.659
I remember going to WordCamp San

00:20:51.679 --> 00:20:59.384
Francisco, uh, and, uh, feeling, yes,

00:20:59.505 --> 00:21:00.266
overwhelmed.

00:21:00.846 --> 00:21:03.327
I had the, the deep sense that, like,

00:21:03.587 --> 00:21:04.328
they, the,

00:21:04.469 --> 00:21:07.131
there are people that I recognize their,

00:21:07.171 --> 00:21:09.972
like, handles that I was, um,

00:21:10.594 --> 00:21:13.396
like afraid to have a conversation with

00:21:14.218 --> 00:21:15.778
because like this is a big important

00:21:15.818 --> 00:21:17.780
person and I'm just like whatever.

00:21:19.082 --> 00:21:20.403
So like there's a lot of imposter

00:21:20.423 --> 00:21:20.963
syndrome.

00:21:20.983 --> 00:21:22.546
Like there are people that I wanted to

00:21:22.605 --> 00:21:24.086
talk to or introduce myself to,

00:21:24.106 --> 00:21:25.087
but I was afraid to.

00:21:26.288 --> 00:21:27.069
And that was also, I mean,

00:21:27.089 --> 00:21:28.751
that was a long, long, long time ago.

00:21:30.353 --> 00:21:33.574
And since then I did a bunch of

00:21:33.614 --> 00:21:34.973
speaking and I was involved in Salt Lake

00:21:35.013 --> 00:21:35.653
City and whatever.

00:21:36.693 --> 00:21:40.555
But yeah, it was definitely like a lot,

00:21:40.855 --> 00:21:44.615
it felt a lot harder to get into

00:21:44.695 --> 00:21:48.317
that sort of mode of networking.

00:21:48.436 --> 00:21:49.017
And I felt,

00:21:49.537 --> 00:21:52.238
I think I almost felt like a failure

00:21:52.278 --> 00:21:52.637
too,

00:21:52.718 --> 00:21:54.798
like walking away from that and not having

00:21:54.837 --> 00:21:55.738
those conversations.

00:21:55.778 --> 00:21:57.038
Because I felt like this is your

00:21:57.058 --> 00:21:58.078
opportunity to like,

00:21:58.618 --> 00:21:59.000
you know,

00:21:59.480 --> 00:22:01.803
get into the in crowd or whatever.

00:22:02.002 --> 00:22:03.785
And like, you know, they're right there.

00:22:03.825 --> 00:22:04.605
You can just say hi.

00:22:04.665 --> 00:22:05.306
And it's like, no,

00:22:05.487 --> 00:22:07.048
I am too much of a wallflower.

00:22:07.127 --> 00:22:07.848
Like, you know,

00:22:07.868 --> 00:22:10.912
like I'm very much of the, like,

00:22:11.373 --> 00:22:12.854
like I, I'm like,

00:22:13.694 --> 00:22:15.316
i get a lot out of being in

00:22:15.376 --> 00:22:18.378
social situations but i also like if i

00:22:18.499 --> 00:22:20.441
don't know people it's really hard for me

00:22:20.500 --> 00:22:24.703
to like motivate myself to uh um to

00:22:25.085 --> 00:22:27.487
get into to insert myself into a

00:22:27.547 --> 00:22:29.628
conversation with with people that i just

00:22:29.828 --> 00:22:32.330
have never sort of met in person or

00:22:32.611 --> 00:22:35.874
met at all really um yeah so i

00:22:35.973 --> 00:22:37.095
yeah go ahead

00:22:37.740 --> 00:22:39.321
Yeah, I completely understand.

00:22:40.323 --> 00:22:41.044
I find myself,

00:22:41.104 --> 00:22:42.825
I'm awkward at best when it comes to

00:22:42.944 --> 00:22:44.465
the majority of social situations.

00:22:44.486 --> 00:22:47.347
So usually if it's a group of folks,

00:22:47.548 --> 00:22:48.788
I'm a bit more comfortable if I know

00:22:48.808 --> 00:22:50.351
at least one person in that group.

00:22:51.592 --> 00:22:54.153
But I find going back to San Fran

00:22:54.193 --> 00:22:56.996
twelve years ago versus even just WordCamp

00:22:57.016 --> 00:22:57.996
just a couple of weeks ago,

00:22:59.020 --> 00:22:59.181
You know,

00:22:59.221 --> 00:23:01.342
I found like I really kind of opened

00:23:01.383 --> 00:23:03.263
up and my ability to go and approach

00:23:03.284 --> 00:23:04.684
some of those folks that probably would

00:23:04.704 --> 00:23:06.266
have intimidated me twelve years ago.

00:23:06.286 --> 00:23:06.945
Right.

00:23:06.986 --> 00:23:07.246
You know,

00:23:07.385 --> 00:23:09.907
that was so going back to San Fran,

00:23:10.228 --> 00:23:12.288
I got the opportunity to meet Mark.

00:23:12.529 --> 00:23:14.490
Is his last name pronounced Jaquif?

00:23:14.671 --> 00:23:15.351
Jaquif, yeah.

00:23:16.031 --> 00:23:16.231
Yeah.

00:23:16.251 --> 00:23:17.732
So I got the chance to meet him

00:23:17.853 --> 00:23:18.333
at one point.

00:23:18.432 --> 00:23:19.473
I had a conversation with him.

00:23:19.493 --> 00:23:20.253
And I think for me,

00:23:20.295 --> 00:23:22.096
that was the eye opening moment.

00:23:22.155 --> 00:23:23.276
And that was really towards the end of

00:23:23.296 --> 00:23:23.656
the camp.

00:23:24.565 --> 00:23:26.406
and but he was so friendly he was

00:23:26.507 --> 00:23:28.107
so approachable and that to me was like

00:23:28.167 --> 00:23:31.451
okay at that time him and like andrew

00:23:31.490 --> 00:23:33.231
nason like those were like so the big

00:23:33.251 --> 00:23:35.854
guys in in the wordpress world at that

00:23:35.894 --> 00:23:39.096
time and for him to be very approachable

00:23:39.156 --> 00:23:40.798
and really open to conversation and stuff

00:23:41.398 --> 00:23:43.401
That showed me what this community was

00:23:43.480 --> 00:23:44.682
really all about.

00:23:44.801 --> 00:23:46.963
And there was really not a lot of

00:23:47.125 --> 00:23:48.486
ego that you get from a lot of

00:23:48.546 --> 00:23:49.987
other conferences and stuff like that.

00:23:50.027 --> 00:23:53.170
So that made me really appreciate the

00:23:53.190 --> 00:23:54.211
community that much more.

00:23:54.751 --> 00:23:56.374
Now, fast forward into WordCamp Canada,

00:23:56.394 --> 00:23:57.575
like we had a lot of big names

00:23:57.615 --> 00:23:58.335
at that camp.

00:23:58.355 --> 00:23:58.536
I mean,

00:23:58.695 --> 00:24:00.356
Matt was at the camp and he was

00:24:00.396 --> 00:24:01.519
very approachable as well.

00:24:02.769 --> 00:24:02.950
You know,

00:24:02.970 --> 00:24:04.553
there probably would have been a time and

00:24:04.573 --> 00:24:06.415
place when I would not have wanted to

00:24:06.435 --> 00:24:07.678
go and talk to some of those folks.

00:24:07.758 --> 00:24:08.679
But, you know,

00:24:08.878 --> 00:24:11.063
this time I relished that opportunity and

00:24:11.103 --> 00:24:13.145
was really excited to meet some of the

00:24:13.185 --> 00:24:14.127
names that we had coming in.

00:24:14.573 --> 00:24:14.792
Yeah.

00:24:15.433 --> 00:24:17.515
Yeah, I remember Jaquith and Nason,

00:24:18.476 --> 00:24:20.218
I remember seeing them across the room and

00:24:20.258 --> 00:24:21.939
being too intimidated to talk to them.

00:24:21.999 --> 00:24:25.862
So props to you,

00:24:25.922 --> 00:24:28.983
props to you for actually opening the

00:24:29.044 --> 00:24:32.626
conversation when I couldn't.

00:24:32.826 --> 00:24:37.111
So you've been working on this Gutenberg

00:24:37.230 --> 00:24:39.712
block accessibility validation plugin.

00:24:39.752 --> 00:24:40.634
Tell me about how...

00:24:41.213 --> 00:24:42.555
I mean, I imagine,

00:24:42.835 --> 00:24:45.277
I think I can maybe even see where

00:24:45.518 --> 00:24:47.358
the sort of origin story for this thing,

00:24:47.398 --> 00:24:50.260
because if you're working at Carlton and

00:24:50.280 --> 00:24:52.502
Carlton is concerned about accessibility,

00:24:52.823 --> 00:24:55.565
then obviously your website needs to be

00:24:55.905 --> 00:24:57.547
accessible and there needs to be a way

00:24:57.586 --> 00:24:58.288
to inform

00:24:58.807 --> 00:25:02.130
the users of the site that the site

00:25:02.190 --> 00:25:03.550
isn't super accessible.

00:25:03.791 --> 00:25:08.615
I imagine that is the use case for

00:25:08.734 --> 00:25:09.655
how this emerged.

00:25:11.717 --> 00:25:13.759
When did you decide that this was

00:25:13.778 --> 00:25:15.539
something that you needed to work on and

00:25:15.579 --> 00:25:17.381
build?

00:25:17.461 --> 00:25:19.061
It was pretty early when we were building

00:25:19.282 --> 00:25:19.423
our

00:25:20.102 --> 00:25:22.083
our current Gutenberg implementation,

00:25:22.303 --> 00:25:25.785
where the realization of how easy it was

00:25:25.884 --> 00:25:28.026
to publish inaccessible content with

00:25:28.066 --> 00:25:29.406
Gutenberg, it kind of,

00:25:29.426 --> 00:25:30.646
it was a bit mind blowing to be

00:25:30.686 --> 00:25:30.967
honest.

00:25:30.987 --> 00:25:32.688
Like for example, the table block,

00:25:33.729 --> 00:25:34.788
the fact that I can just throw a

00:25:34.828 --> 00:25:35.990
table block on the page,

00:25:36.210 --> 00:25:37.631
there's no header by default.

00:25:38.211 --> 00:25:38.892
And at the time,

00:25:39.071 --> 00:25:40.673
maybe it's changed in code, you know,

00:25:40.692 --> 00:25:41.413
in the last year,

00:25:41.452 --> 00:25:42.693
but at the time I was looking at

00:25:42.733 --> 00:25:42.814
it,

00:25:43.233 --> 00:25:45.536
there was not a way to force the

00:25:45.556 --> 00:25:47.096
header on by default without doing a

00:25:47.116 --> 00:25:47.916
variation block,

00:25:48.377 --> 00:25:50.239
nor was there a way to remove that

00:25:50.338 --> 00:25:51.480
option from the editor.

00:25:51.519 --> 00:25:53.141
So there was always a way to allow

00:25:53.201 --> 00:25:55.582
a table block to be published without a

00:25:55.622 --> 00:25:55.821
header.

00:25:57.508 --> 00:25:58.848
at one point i was there was i

00:25:58.868 --> 00:26:00.351
was trying to figure out how how we

00:26:00.371 --> 00:26:02.412
could you know tackle this stuff there was

00:26:02.451 --> 00:26:04.554
really no validation in core that i knew

00:26:04.594 --> 00:26:06.675
about at the time but i saw a

00:26:06.715 --> 00:26:09.278
video by ryan welcher and he had been

00:26:09.317 --> 00:26:11.740
talking about the post locking

00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:14.502
functionality in core and the light bulb

00:26:14.522 --> 00:26:17.184
turned on immediately i said how can i

00:26:17.404 --> 00:26:20.067
check attributes in blocks

00:26:20.974 --> 00:26:24.056
then block post publishing if they didn't

00:26:24.135 --> 00:26:25.916
meet the accessibility requirements that

00:26:25.957 --> 00:26:27.977
we have to adhere to in Canada.

00:26:29.117 --> 00:26:30.738
So I started just to build this thing

00:26:30.758 --> 00:26:32.439
on my own, trying to figure it out.

00:26:32.719 --> 00:26:35.579
And one thing led to another and a

00:26:35.619 --> 00:26:37.840
first iteration of a plugin came together

00:26:38.421 --> 00:26:40.501
where I was checking, I think it was,

00:26:42.342 --> 00:26:43.583
I started with the table block.

00:26:44.603 --> 00:26:46.864
I added the button block because I wanted

00:26:46.884 --> 00:26:48.183
to make sure that folks were not able

00:26:48.223 --> 00:26:50.065
to publish buttons without text or a link.

00:26:51.172 --> 00:26:53.497
And I also started working on images

00:26:53.517 --> 00:26:55.201
because alt tags, in my opinion,

00:26:55.240 --> 00:26:57.265
are one of the biggest misses as far

00:26:57.285 --> 00:26:58.287
as accessibility goes.

00:26:59.530 --> 00:27:00.070
Um, yeah,

00:27:00.131 --> 00:27:01.771
and then I just kept working on this

00:27:01.832 --> 00:27:03.272
plugin and, and, you know,

00:27:03.393 --> 00:27:05.134
we had a different iteration of it

00:27:05.233 --> 00:27:05.854
internally.

00:27:06.334 --> 00:27:07.894
So there was some separation that had

00:27:07.934 --> 00:27:08.454
happened there,

00:27:08.474 --> 00:27:09.476
cuz we do things just a little bit

00:27:09.496 --> 00:27:09.695
different.

00:27:09.715 --> 00:27:11.856
Like we force it all internally and it's

00:27:11.896 --> 00:27:12.596
all required.

00:27:13.157 --> 00:27:14.739
Whereas the plugin that I'm building for

00:27:14.818 --> 00:27:17.220
public consumption allows you as a content

00:27:17.279 --> 00:27:20.882
editor to choose your level of, um,

00:27:20.961 --> 00:27:21.261
I guess,

00:27:21.721 --> 00:27:23.962
validation and what you want to validate.

00:27:23.982 --> 00:27:25.483
So there's a big settings page and.

00:27:26.003 --> 00:27:26.183
you know,

00:27:26.423 --> 00:27:29.326
if you're not as concerned around, um,

00:27:29.425 --> 00:27:31.768
heading levels or structures,

00:27:31.948 --> 00:27:33.328
or if you don't care about the table

00:27:33.368 --> 00:27:33.548
header,

00:27:33.568 --> 00:27:35.269
you can turn it all off or you

00:27:35.309 --> 00:27:36.830
can give warnings as a way to,

00:27:37.131 --> 00:27:38.731
you know, at least educate folks,

00:27:38.791 --> 00:27:40.593
but not block them from publishing,

00:27:41.253 --> 00:27:42.694
or you can be as heavy handed as

00:27:42.734 --> 00:27:44.336
we are at the university and just make

00:27:44.375 --> 00:27:46.136
sure that folks just can't do it at

00:27:46.176 --> 00:27:46.297
all.

00:27:47.438 --> 00:27:47.557
Um,

00:27:48.501 --> 00:27:49.363
Over the summer, though,

00:27:49.442 --> 00:27:51.703
I think was the biggest thing I really

00:27:51.743 --> 00:27:53.984
wanted to do with the plugin itself.

00:27:54.305 --> 00:27:57.086
And I built a validation API, ultimately.

00:27:58.728 --> 00:28:01.548
I like the idea that the plugin offered

00:28:01.568 --> 00:28:03.990
the ability to validate some of the core

00:28:04.010 --> 00:28:04.471
blocks.

00:28:05.151 --> 00:28:05.571
But to me,

00:28:05.612 --> 00:28:07.972
the big win was being able to allow

00:28:08.133 --> 00:28:10.555
other developers to leverage all of the

00:28:10.575 --> 00:28:12.496
stuff that I had already written in the

00:28:12.536 --> 00:28:13.757
most simplistic of ways.

00:28:13.817 --> 00:28:16.377
So I happened to go on vacation to

00:28:16.417 --> 00:28:18.019
Newfoundland and my family were going to

00:28:18.038 --> 00:28:18.960
bed a bit earlier.

00:28:19.039 --> 00:28:21.201
So that gave me hours and hours at

00:28:21.300 --> 00:28:23.682
night to just tinker with this stuff.

00:28:24.383 --> 00:28:25.304
and i think in the course of a

00:28:25.364 --> 00:28:27.445
two-week vacation i had built the majority

00:28:27.486 --> 00:28:28.747
of this i called it at the time

00:28:28.767 --> 00:28:32.029
the developer api and i started building

00:28:32.230 --> 00:28:33.530
some of my own little plugins with it

00:28:33.611 --> 00:28:35.532
to test it and and now it's a

00:28:35.593 --> 00:28:38.255
fully functioning api and just a couple

00:28:38.295 --> 00:28:41.097
days ago i extended that functionality to

00:28:41.137 --> 00:28:43.539
now include post meta in the validation in

00:28:43.579 --> 00:28:46.563
the same way um so yeah there's there's

00:28:46.823 --> 00:28:48.044
some other stuff i want to do with

00:28:48.064 --> 00:28:49.384
this plugin and i'm really just trying to

00:28:49.424 --> 00:28:49.925
position it

00:28:50.605 --> 00:28:51.967
as a really fantastic,

00:28:52.007 --> 00:28:55.871
powerful validation API for developers.

00:28:55.891 --> 00:28:58.854
Have you been getting any sort of feedback

00:28:58.953 --> 00:29:02.116
or conversation around the plugin?

00:29:02.156 --> 00:29:03.278
I know that when we talked in person,

00:29:03.298 --> 00:29:04.679
you were talking about Joe Dolson,

00:29:04.720 --> 00:29:06.441
who is very active in the WordPress

00:29:06.461 --> 00:29:07.442
accessibility community,

00:29:07.481 --> 00:29:10.105
had submitted some pull requests.

00:29:10.125 --> 00:29:13.788
But have you been able to interact with

00:29:13.807 --> 00:29:14.608
people that are using it?

00:29:16.145 --> 00:29:17.406
Not as much as I would like to.

00:29:17.426 --> 00:29:18.867
And I find that is one of the

00:29:18.928 --> 00:29:21.430
hardest parts about this world right now,

00:29:21.490 --> 00:29:22.971
because there's so many options.

00:29:22.990 --> 00:29:24.913
There's a lot of great accessibility tools

00:29:25.073 --> 00:29:25.472
out there.

00:29:25.532 --> 00:29:28.335
So it's hard to catch the attention.

00:29:28.474 --> 00:29:29.635
And, you know,

00:29:29.655 --> 00:29:31.738
I'm not really a well-known person either.

00:29:31.837 --> 00:29:32.979
So again, it's, you know,

00:29:32.999 --> 00:29:34.720
I'm already fighting that uphill battle.

00:29:35.079 --> 00:29:36.842
Now I did get some really great feedback

00:29:36.862 --> 00:29:38.182
from some folks like Joe, you mentioned,

00:29:38.202 --> 00:29:38.782
for example,

00:29:38.923 --> 00:29:41.125
had saw the plugin and submitted a few

00:29:41.164 --> 00:29:41.805
feature requests.

00:29:41.846 --> 00:29:43.326
So I kind of pinged Joe on the

00:29:43.366 --> 00:29:44.548
side and talked to him a little bit

00:29:44.567 --> 00:29:44.807
and

00:29:45.228 --> 00:29:47.430
Really appreciate him taking the time to

00:29:47.470 --> 00:29:49.451
put those features in and they made it

00:29:49.490 --> 00:29:50.531
into the next release.

00:29:51.893 --> 00:29:53.153
I had some conversations with a lot of

00:29:53.193 --> 00:29:54.734
folks at WordCamp Canada.

00:29:55.174 --> 00:29:56.415
One of the goals was I wanted to

00:29:56.455 --> 00:29:58.517
try to sit down with some more developers

00:29:58.557 --> 00:30:00.959
and get some feedback and demo my plug-in.

00:30:00.979 --> 00:30:02.640
So I got a lot of great feedback

00:30:02.680 --> 00:30:03.059
there.

00:30:03.300 --> 00:30:05.642
I've since put in a long list of

00:30:05.721 --> 00:30:07.123
issues of things I want to build it

00:30:07.163 --> 00:30:07.763
on the plug-in.

00:30:09.286 --> 00:30:10.608
One of my favorite ideas and it's

00:30:10.628 --> 00:30:11.991
something I actually have started working

00:30:12.051 --> 00:30:14.518
on already came from Ryan Welcher.

00:30:15.359 --> 00:30:17.826
He had suggested what does the possibility

00:30:18.026 --> 00:30:18.186
of

00:30:19.047 --> 00:30:22.089
moving away from writing the checks and

00:30:22.109 --> 00:30:24.151
the strings and all that in PHP,

00:30:24.531 --> 00:30:25.813
what would that look like if I moved

00:30:25.833 --> 00:30:26.874
it to the block.json?

00:30:26.913 --> 00:30:28.976
And that would just remove one whole other

00:30:29.056 --> 00:30:32.018
layer and then simplify the integration

00:30:32.038 --> 00:30:32.939
for an external block.

00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:35.340
So I thought that was a fantastic idea.

00:30:35.361 --> 00:30:36.842
So now I'm trying to figure that out.

00:30:36.942 --> 00:30:38.564
But that also means I need to wrap

00:30:38.584 --> 00:30:40.285
my head around how translation works.

00:30:40.505 --> 00:30:40.826
Mm-hmm.

00:30:41.385 --> 00:30:42.928
And how does that work when you're pulling

00:30:42.968 --> 00:30:44.269
a string from a block.json?

00:30:44.309 --> 00:30:45.851
I've never had to handle that before.

00:30:45.951 --> 00:30:47.593
So I'm actually quite excited for the

00:30:47.633 --> 00:30:49.275
challenge and learning how that works.

00:30:49.335 --> 00:30:51.096
And I'm going to need to find someone

00:30:51.116 --> 00:30:52.878
that knows how to properly test it to

00:30:52.919 --> 00:30:54.480
tell me if I did my job correctly

00:30:54.520 --> 00:30:55.281
or not, though.

00:30:55.662 --> 00:30:55.883
Yeah.

00:30:56.563 --> 00:30:59.464
What kind of approaches are you using?

00:30:59.545 --> 00:31:01.566
Or I guess maybe the first question is,

00:31:01.665 --> 00:31:05.428
do you have sort of testing in place

00:31:05.847 --> 00:31:07.348
as you're building out the plugin?

00:31:07.409 --> 00:31:09.670
Or are you mostly just sort of testing

00:31:09.690 --> 00:31:11.671
things manually as you go?

00:31:13.480 --> 00:31:13.840
Right now,

00:31:13.881 --> 00:31:15.202
it's all just manual because I want to

00:31:15.222 --> 00:31:16.544
be able to get in there and see

00:31:16.624 --> 00:31:18.846
how the experience is in the editor.

00:31:19.487 --> 00:31:19.646
I mean,

00:31:20.027 --> 00:31:21.167
I definitely do need to go in and

00:31:21.188 --> 00:31:22.910
start adding some unit tests before things

00:31:22.930 --> 00:31:24.131
start to grow a little bit too big.

00:31:24.171 --> 00:31:25.352
But I don't think I'll ever get away

00:31:25.372 --> 00:31:28.275
from the manual testing because to me,

00:31:28.315 --> 00:31:30.317
the plugins also got to feel good for

00:31:30.356 --> 00:31:30.877
the users.

00:31:30.897 --> 00:31:31.597
And, you know,

00:31:31.657 --> 00:31:33.740
there's no testing unit that's going to

00:31:33.759 --> 00:31:35.602
tell me if that's a good experience or

00:31:35.642 --> 00:31:35.821
not.

00:31:35.882 --> 00:31:36.001
So...

00:31:36.883 --> 00:31:36.942
Um,

00:31:36.962 --> 00:31:38.443
there's always gonna be an aspect of the,

00:31:38.584 --> 00:31:40.564
the human element has always gotta be here

00:31:40.604 --> 00:31:41.384
cuz I, I, I do,

00:31:41.424 --> 00:31:43.005
I'm a big proponent of making sure that

00:31:43.345 --> 00:31:45.306
the UI is as clean and as, as,

00:31:45.465 --> 00:31:47.146
as nice as it can be for the

00:31:47.207 --> 00:31:47.666
end user.

00:31:48.086 --> 00:31:48.326
Yeah.

00:31:49.268 --> 00:31:51.587
What are your, uh, what was,

00:31:51.748 --> 00:31:55.130
what would success sort of look like for,

00:31:55.390 --> 00:31:58.030
for the block validation plugin in your

00:31:58.050 --> 00:31:58.270
mind?

00:31:58.310 --> 00:31:58.730
Like, what do you,

00:31:58.851 --> 00:32:01.491
what are you hoping that this will sort

00:32:01.531 --> 00:32:04.432
of achieve if, if you reach your goals?

00:32:07.798 --> 00:32:07.919
I mean,

00:32:07.939 --> 00:32:10.339
I have a couple of pretty lofty goals.

00:32:10.640 --> 00:32:12.181
I mean, I think realistically, I mean,

00:32:12.820 --> 00:32:16.323
more developers seeing this plugin and

00:32:16.823 --> 00:32:18.903
looking at it as a viable solution in

00:32:19.064 --> 00:32:21.506
their work in order to help validate

00:32:21.526 --> 00:32:23.287
blocks or post-meta.

00:32:24.406 --> 00:32:26.788
I would love to know that more people

00:32:26.909 --> 00:32:29.050
are using it and it's working well for

00:32:29.070 --> 00:32:29.310
them.

00:32:29.372 --> 00:32:30.673
And then maybe we get some more

00:32:30.712 --> 00:32:32.034
contributors that can help grow the

00:32:32.074 --> 00:32:32.413
plugin.

00:32:33.234 --> 00:32:34.336
I think that would be a best case

00:32:34.355 --> 00:32:34.836
scenario.

00:32:34.855 --> 00:32:35.457
I mean,

00:32:35.497 --> 00:32:37.157
if I wanted to look at big picture,

00:32:37.317 --> 00:32:37.538
I mean,

00:32:37.577 --> 00:32:40.661
I keep seeing stuff like the abilities API

00:32:40.681 --> 00:32:42.863
and the interactivity API crop up in

00:32:42.903 --> 00:32:43.423
WordPress.

00:32:44.703 --> 00:32:46.086
I really do truly think we need a

00:32:46.125 --> 00:32:47.467
validations API.

00:32:47.967 --> 00:32:49.768
And I think at some point I might

00:32:49.887 --> 00:32:51.490
just take what I've done and throw it

00:32:51.529 --> 00:32:53.310
up as a discussion and hope for the

00:32:53.330 --> 00:32:53.590
best.

00:32:54.311 --> 00:32:55.873
You know, that's my pie in the sky.

00:32:55.932 --> 00:32:57.054
And, you know,

00:32:57.134 --> 00:32:58.154
I don't know where it's going to go

00:32:58.214 --> 00:32:59.776
until I put it out there in the

00:32:59.855 --> 00:33:00.415
universe.

00:33:00.516 --> 00:33:01.997
And I fully plan on doing that at

00:33:02.037 --> 00:33:02.417
some point.

00:33:03.769 --> 00:33:05.711
That's awesome.

00:33:05.730 --> 00:33:06.651
Yeah, I agree.

00:33:07.570 --> 00:33:11.152
I think it's really valuable just from a

00:33:11.432 --> 00:33:13.252
user education standpoint.

00:33:13.472 --> 00:33:14.594
I've played with it a little bit.

00:33:14.653 --> 00:33:16.574
I probably haven't configured it to the

00:33:16.634 --> 00:33:18.515
right degree because I really just sort of

00:33:18.555 --> 00:33:20.795
threw it up on this site, actually,

00:33:22.135 --> 00:33:25.257
just to get a sense of what it

00:33:25.297 --> 00:33:25.656
does.

00:33:26.717 --> 00:33:28.778
But even just from the perspective of

00:33:30.500 --> 00:33:32.821
knowing when you're doing things wrong.

00:33:33.061 --> 00:33:34.323
It seems like it should be...

00:33:34.462 --> 00:33:35.604
Like you said,

00:33:35.703 --> 00:33:40.205
it's super easy to not even realize that

00:33:40.226 --> 00:33:42.386
you're creating inaccessible content.

00:33:42.787 --> 00:33:45.367
And so just from an education standpoint,

00:33:45.807 --> 00:33:48.369
I know because I've worked with... I mean,

00:33:48.410 --> 00:33:49.529
I worked with Rianne Rietveld,

00:33:49.549 --> 00:33:50.270
who's one of the...

00:33:51.770 --> 00:33:54.933
biggest accessibility advocates in the

00:33:54.953 --> 00:33:57.215
WordPress ecosystem and probably beyond

00:33:57.435 --> 00:33:59.837
and like just is amazing to work alongside

00:34:01.137 --> 00:34:04.520
and she has drilled several things into my

00:34:04.560 --> 00:34:07.903
brain over the years of working with her

00:34:09.125 --> 00:34:10.445
but like it's still like

00:34:12.505 --> 00:34:13.806
Because it's so easy,

00:34:14.145 --> 00:34:15.606
because there's so much variability,

00:34:16.007 --> 00:34:20.849
and because the rules aren't super fixed,

00:34:21.029 --> 00:34:22.451
like there's things where it's like, well,

00:34:22.490 --> 00:34:23.211
in this case,

00:34:24.692 --> 00:34:25.773
Images are a great example.

00:34:25.834 --> 00:34:26.974
In this case,

00:34:27.114 --> 00:34:28.456
you definitely need alt text,

00:34:28.476 --> 00:34:29.157
but in this case,

00:34:29.197 --> 00:34:30.277
the image is just decorative,

00:34:30.297 --> 00:34:31.818
so it doesn't necessarily need alt text.

00:34:32.719 --> 00:34:35.181
There's nuance,

00:34:35.621 --> 00:34:40.326
and accessibility really requires a human

00:34:40.485 --> 00:34:41.206
in the loop.

00:34:42.728 --> 00:34:43.327
So just...

00:34:44.289 --> 00:34:46.411
Having something that gives you feedback

00:34:46.431 --> 00:34:47.791
that kind of suggests like, hey,

00:34:47.851 --> 00:34:49.333
maybe you should be doing this thing is

00:34:49.414 --> 00:34:50.114
super valuable.

00:34:50.135 --> 00:34:52.777
And I do think that pulling that into

00:34:52.797 --> 00:34:55.599
core is maybe a lofty goal,

00:34:55.639 --> 00:34:57.800
but it shouldn't be super unrealistic.

00:34:57.862 --> 00:34:58.021
Like,

00:34:58.081 --> 00:34:59.983
I feel like it's a thing that could

00:35:00.023 --> 00:35:02.385
be really valuable to anyone.

00:35:02.405 --> 00:35:04.166
Thank you.

00:35:04.286 --> 00:35:04.867
I like to think so.

00:35:07.931 --> 00:35:08.130
Yeah.

00:35:08.190 --> 00:35:11.911
So let us switch gears a little bit

00:35:11.992 --> 00:35:12.391
too.

00:35:12.833 --> 00:35:16.614
You mentioned before the recording that

00:35:16.653 --> 00:35:19.514
you're a little bit of a RPG nerd.

00:35:21.356 --> 00:35:22.856
Let's get into the nerdiness.

00:35:22.976 --> 00:35:26.356
What sort of nerd things are you...

00:35:26.556 --> 00:35:28.197
What are you nerding out on these days?

00:35:29.677 --> 00:35:31.559
well i haven't jumped into games in quite

00:35:31.579 --> 00:35:33.641
some time i mean the last year of

00:35:33.900 --> 00:35:36.442
of life between building this validation

00:35:36.501 --> 00:35:39.063
stuff and doing the word camp work has

00:35:39.804 --> 00:35:41.844
consumed a lot of my time and then

00:35:41.864 --> 00:35:44.086
you know everything else is all about the

00:35:44.106 --> 00:35:47.007
family so um but now that word camp

00:35:47.068 --> 00:35:49.349
is done and i'm stepping back a little

00:35:49.369 --> 00:35:51.331
bit on like developing for five and six

00:35:51.391 --> 00:35:53.851
hours every night after i you know develop

00:35:53.871 --> 00:35:54.492
all the effort right

00:35:56.014 --> 00:36:00.416
I'm jumping into Ghosts of Yotei was a

00:36:00.456 --> 00:36:01.157
new game.

00:36:01.338 --> 00:36:03.860
So I really enjoyed the last Ghosts of

00:36:03.900 --> 00:36:04.340
Tsushima.

00:36:06.023 --> 00:36:06.204
Now,

00:36:06.224 --> 00:36:07.766
there's also a couple of RPGs that are

00:36:07.826 --> 00:36:09.606
on my wish list.

00:36:09.847 --> 00:36:11.128
I was reading about one the other day.

00:36:11.188 --> 00:36:12.230
The name escapes me,

00:36:12.269 --> 00:36:13.831
but I'm trying to catch up from the

00:36:13.851 --> 00:36:16.012
last couple of years of gaming releases.

00:36:16.893 --> 00:36:19.036
I also just grabbed a copy of Elder

00:36:19.076 --> 00:36:19.817
Scrolls Online.

00:36:19.836 --> 00:36:21.177
I'm quite interested in that one.

00:36:21.217 --> 00:36:22.699
It also seems like something my wife might

00:36:22.719 --> 00:36:23.019
enjoy.

00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:24.681
She's also an RPG fan,

00:36:24.721 --> 00:36:26.742
so looking for something that we might be

00:36:26.762 --> 00:36:28.804
able to play together would be ideal,

00:36:28.844 --> 00:36:29.606
especially for the winter.

00:36:30.284 --> 00:36:31.465
Yeah.

00:36:32.885 --> 00:36:35.666
What draws you into role-playing video

00:36:35.706 --> 00:36:36.686
games specifically?

00:36:36.726 --> 00:36:41.409
What was your introduction and what was

00:36:42.228 --> 00:36:44.969
the thing that pulled you in and was

00:36:44.989 --> 00:36:46.610
like, yeah, this is the thing for me?

00:36:48.668 --> 00:36:50.871
Everything about the Final Fantasy series

00:36:50.911 --> 00:36:52.672
is what drew me into games when I

00:36:52.692 --> 00:36:53.311
was growing up.

00:36:53.672 --> 00:36:53.853
I mean,

00:36:53.873 --> 00:36:55.494
I got I got the Nintendo Entertainment

00:36:55.534 --> 00:36:58.516
System and everybody was playing Mario and

00:36:58.615 --> 00:37:01.157
Duck Hunt and I got Final Fantasy and

00:37:01.498 --> 00:37:02.958
it was game over for me right from

00:37:02.978 --> 00:37:03.500
that point.

00:37:04.059 --> 00:37:06.161
There's just something about leveling and

00:37:06.302 --> 00:37:07.322
building a character.

00:37:07.362 --> 00:37:07.963
And then, of course,

00:37:08.063 --> 00:37:10.045
as RPGs evolved over time.

00:37:11.065 --> 00:37:12.987
being able to customize that character and

00:37:13.007 --> 00:37:16.128
not being locked into what that game and

00:37:16.168 --> 00:37:18.771
what that creator was trying to make this

00:37:18.811 --> 00:37:19.512
character be.

00:37:19.952 --> 00:37:20.992
So you kind of break inside of the

00:37:21.012 --> 00:37:21.213
mold.

00:37:21.233 --> 00:37:22.894
And I think you can relate it back

00:37:22.914 --> 00:37:24.096
to a lot of the D&D stuff.

00:37:24.135 --> 00:37:25.597
I didn't really play a lot of that

00:37:25.717 --> 00:37:26.117
as a kid.

00:37:26.197 --> 00:37:27.759
I did just maybe for a year or

00:37:27.798 --> 00:37:28.039
so.

00:37:28.059 --> 00:37:30.320
But just the idea that what you're

00:37:30.360 --> 00:37:32.103
creating is unique to you.

00:37:32.163 --> 00:37:34.063
You can do whatever you want to do

00:37:34.083 --> 00:37:34.364
with it.

00:37:34.644 --> 00:37:37.186
And I think that aspect of RPGs is

00:37:37.246 --> 00:37:38.027
really appealing

00:37:38.871 --> 00:37:41.391
to me just and the open world concept

00:37:41.431 --> 00:37:42.871
and just being able to get lost in

00:37:42.891 --> 00:37:45.592
those things for hours on end and I

00:37:45.632 --> 00:37:47.173
mean I remember playing Skyrim and I think

00:37:47.213 --> 00:37:49.795
the first month or so I played Skyrim

00:37:49.855 --> 00:37:52.155
I played for like forty hours but I

00:37:52.195 --> 00:37:54.456
accomplished nothing in the big picture

00:37:54.797 --> 00:37:57.237
because it was all about exploring and you

00:37:57.257 --> 00:37:59.318
know leveling and building the character

00:37:59.338 --> 00:38:00.918
and like just fun stuff like that that

00:38:00.938 --> 00:38:01.719
I like to get lost in

00:38:02.231 --> 00:38:04.213
Yeah, I really enjoy...

00:38:04.753 --> 00:38:07.115
The thing that I love the most about

00:38:07.436 --> 00:38:08.135
role-playing,

00:38:08.335 --> 00:38:11.498
whether it's video games or whether it's

00:38:11.539 --> 00:38:12.840
tabletop role-playing games,

00:38:12.880 --> 00:38:16.742
or even some tabletop board games even,

00:38:17.402 --> 00:38:18.983
is the storytelling,

00:38:19.043 --> 00:38:20.385
is getting lost in the story.

00:38:20.405 --> 00:38:21.726
And I remember the first time...

00:38:22.226 --> 00:38:25.708
I remember when I played Final Fantasy VII

00:38:25.889 --> 00:38:26.550
back in the day,

00:38:28.030 --> 00:38:30.994
Like, just, like, that, it blew me away,

00:38:31.135 --> 00:38:33.217
like, the level of, like,

00:38:33.257 --> 00:38:35.079
before that it felt like the story was

00:38:35.119 --> 00:38:36.922
kind of like, you know, oh,

00:38:36.983 --> 00:38:38.625
your princess is in another castle, and,

00:38:38.664 --> 00:38:40.748
like, it was there, but, like,

00:38:41.188 --> 00:38:43.210
it was a little bit, like, forced, but,

00:38:43.271 --> 00:38:43.471
like,

00:38:44.351 --> 00:38:48.253
Final Fantasy seven like chrono cross like

00:38:48.335 --> 00:38:49.775
things like that were like the story is

00:38:49.916 --> 00:38:51.637
really really immersive and deep and like

00:38:51.657 --> 00:38:55.878
even like Kingdom Hearts the You know like

00:38:55.898 --> 00:38:59.681
it it was really like elevating

00:39:01.362 --> 00:39:04.746
video games to to an art form um

00:39:05.067 --> 00:39:07.690
that that was really like on the same

00:39:07.730 --> 00:39:11.574
level as like you know reading and reading

00:39:11.635 --> 00:39:13.577
lord of the rings you know like except

00:39:13.617 --> 00:39:16.760
that you are frodo you know

00:39:19.271 --> 00:39:19.391
Yeah,

00:39:19.411 --> 00:39:21.653
I remember times when like just my friends

00:39:21.693 --> 00:39:22.934
and I would like, oh,

00:39:22.954 --> 00:39:24.556
the new Final Fantasy is coming or here's

00:39:24.577 --> 00:39:25.438
the launch trailer.

00:39:25.478 --> 00:39:28.079
And we would like just totally geek out

00:39:28.159 --> 00:39:31.143
over the animations of all the deities or

00:39:31.382 --> 00:39:33.304
daikons or whatever they decided to call

00:39:33.324 --> 00:39:34.105
them in those games.

00:39:34.146 --> 00:39:36.628
And you'd see like Bahamut like rise up

00:39:36.648 --> 00:39:37.989
and how great the graphics were like.

00:39:38.048 --> 00:39:40.110
Those were like just I remember those

00:39:40.150 --> 00:39:42.052
being super exciting moments to get to see

00:39:42.632 --> 00:39:43.213
the improvements.

00:39:43.233 --> 00:39:45.114
Because to me, I found RPGs.

00:39:45.936 --> 00:39:48.197
had the biggest graphical improvement year

00:39:48.237 --> 00:39:49.617
over year with what they were trying to

00:39:49.677 --> 00:39:51.038
put out there with the stories and like

00:39:51.679 --> 00:39:52.858
like you said with the story like you

00:39:52.938 --> 00:39:54.360
also need to have those those really

00:39:54.400 --> 00:39:56.139
strong visuals like you had to make it

00:39:56.159 --> 00:39:57.701
look like you were watching a movie at

00:39:57.740 --> 00:40:00.461
times and final fantasy in my opinion did

00:40:00.501 --> 00:40:03.503
it leagues above everybody else to a

00:40:03.583 --> 00:40:05.543
certain degree and it was just always

00:40:05.583 --> 00:40:06.804
excited to see what they were going to

00:40:06.824 --> 00:40:08.545
come up with next so i always have

00:40:08.565 --> 00:40:10.666
a i'll always have a special place for

00:40:10.726 --> 00:40:13.728
final fantasy in my gaming heart did you

00:40:13.748 --> 00:40:13.827
ever

00:40:13.827 --> 00:40:17.588
Do you ever get into those sort of

00:40:17.789 --> 00:40:20.530
interactive movie-style games?

00:40:20.570 --> 00:40:21.690
I'm thinking of things like

00:40:22.130 --> 00:40:23.490
Phantasmagoria.

00:40:23.630 --> 00:40:26.032
I think Wing Commander had one where it

00:40:26.052 --> 00:40:27.831
was like...

00:40:27.871 --> 00:40:29.652
Wing Commander is a great example because

00:40:29.672 --> 00:40:31.333
they had Mark Hamill play one of the

00:40:31.532 --> 00:40:31.893
characters.

00:40:32.333 --> 00:40:33.554
So they have actual actors

00:40:34.534 --> 00:40:37.599
But the game itself is almost like a

00:40:37.739 --> 00:40:39.981
Myst-style point-and-click sort of thing,

00:40:40.302 --> 00:40:43.206
but then with these live-action clips

00:40:44.327 --> 00:40:46.690
interspersed depending on what you unlock

00:40:46.851 --> 00:40:47.552
or what you find.

00:40:47.572 --> 00:40:49.315
Did you ever get into those sorts of

00:40:49.335 --> 00:40:49.554
things?

00:40:50.356 --> 00:40:52.456
There's one that really stands out and I

00:40:52.617 --> 00:40:54.137
absolutely love this game.

00:40:54.557 --> 00:40:57.460
I like Sean Ashmore as an actor and

00:40:57.519 --> 00:40:58.940
he did Quantum Break.

00:40:59.139 --> 00:41:01.702
That game was fantastic on the Xbox.

00:41:01.722 --> 00:41:03.782
So that had that sort of like you

00:41:03.802 --> 00:41:05.284
play the game and then there'd be like

00:41:05.324 --> 00:41:07.164
a movie clip and like you would you

00:41:07.184 --> 00:41:08.344
would sit there was I think one part

00:41:08.364 --> 00:41:10.045
that was like a twenty five minute clip.

00:41:10.065 --> 00:41:11.726
I was watching an episode essentially.

00:41:11.847 --> 00:41:14.228
Yeah, I really enjoyed that game like

00:41:14.748 --> 00:41:16.170
It was a good break from something where

00:41:16.210 --> 00:41:19.432
it's like action like nonstop versus this

00:41:19.452 --> 00:41:20.635
game had a good action.

00:41:20.655 --> 00:41:22.876
Then you could sit back and it felt

00:41:22.896 --> 00:41:24.478
like something I wanted to have snacks.

00:41:24.518 --> 00:41:25.820
I don't snack when I'm gaming,

00:41:26.460 --> 00:41:28.001
but this was one of those ones where

00:41:28.041 --> 00:41:29.804
I definitely had to have snacks because I

00:41:29.824 --> 00:41:31.525
was essentially watching a movie and I

00:41:31.545 --> 00:41:33.067
just got to play in between clips.

00:41:33.106 --> 00:41:33.268
Right.

00:41:34.003 --> 00:41:37.789
I remember thinking at the time that that

00:41:37.809 --> 00:41:40.291
was the future of what games were going

00:41:40.311 --> 00:41:40.871
to turn into.

00:41:40.891 --> 00:41:42.313
They were going to be more cinematic,

00:41:42.614 --> 00:41:44.836
and more cinematic from a production

00:41:44.876 --> 00:41:45.458
value.

00:41:45.998 --> 00:41:48.101
Honestly, that's not not true.

00:41:48.541 --> 00:41:51.945
It's not that thing that I thought it

00:41:51.985 --> 00:41:52.686
was at the time.

00:41:54.849 --> 00:41:58.733
I was so adamant that that was where

00:41:58.853 --> 00:42:02.478
gaming was going to that my senior year

00:42:02.518 --> 00:42:04.001
in college, my plan was...

00:42:04.021 --> 00:42:05.041
I didn't actually do this thing,

00:42:05.061 --> 00:42:08.686
but my plan was that I would spend...

00:42:09.387 --> 00:42:12.371
One semester, so I was, my final project,

00:42:12.791 --> 00:42:14.994
my senior project was going to be like

00:42:15.134 --> 00:42:16.554
one of those sort of point and click

00:42:16.614 --> 00:42:18.998
kind of interactive movie sort of games.

00:42:19.878 --> 00:42:21.601
And so the first semester we were going

00:42:21.621 --> 00:42:23.543
to spend filming all the video stuff,

00:42:23.864 --> 00:42:24.925
the second semester is me

00:42:25.364 --> 00:42:27.166
figuring out how to turn that into a

00:42:27.226 --> 00:42:27.527
game.

00:42:27.547 --> 00:42:30.690
And I ultimately didn't do that second

00:42:30.730 --> 00:42:31.010
part.

00:42:31.389 --> 00:42:32.090
We did the movie.

00:42:32.731 --> 00:42:35.313
I did an interactive CD-ROM instead.

00:42:35.353 --> 00:42:39.918
But I was just convinced that that was

00:42:39.938 --> 00:42:40.739
going to be the feature.

00:42:40.759 --> 00:42:42.099
And of course, that's not...

00:42:42.539 --> 00:42:44.422
Those games pretty much died off,

00:42:44.483 --> 00:42:46.204
but they were replaced by things like,

00:42:46.606 --> 00:42:48.128
I mean, you look at Baldur's Gate three,

00:42:49.009 --> 00:42:51.351
which is one of the top grosses,

00:42:51.492 --> 00:42:54.376
the most highly grossing games.

00:42:54.436 --> 00:42:57.239
And I don't know how long ever, maybe,

00:42:57.300 --> 00:42:57.601
I don't know.

00:42:58.782 --> 00:43:02.043
But the budgets are definitely there.

00:43:02.902 --> 00:43:05.465
There's professional voice actors doing

00:43:05.505 --> 00:43:07.766
things, doing the voice acting.

00:43:08.545 --> 00:43:10.726
In a lot of cases, there's mocap.

00:43:11.067 --> 00:43:14.389
The actors are doing things that are being

00:43:14.429 --> 00:43:19.510
recorded and the cut scenes and things are

00:43:20.132 --> 00:43:21.512
a lot of times cinema quality.

00:43:21.592 --> 00:43:23.373
And now the graphics are getting to the

00:43:23.413 --> 00:43:26.795
point where it's pretty darn close.

00:43:27.255 --> 00:43:29.438
If you compare that to even just film

00:43:29.978 --> 00:43:31.902
CGI from ten years ago,

00:43:31.963 --> 00:43:33.824
we're way beyond that in terms of what

00:43:33.846 --> 00:43:35.367
you could just run on a PC.

00:43:37.090 --> 00:43:38.211
Yeah, I think that it's...

00:43:39.518 --> 00:43:42.059
Just where things have gone is really

00:43:42.099 --> 00:43:42.579
interesting.

00:43:43.300 --> 00:43:47.422
It does feel like things are moving or

00:43:47.463 --> 00:43:53.945
have already moved to elevate video games

00:43:54.045 --> 00:43:56.746
into something that is comparable to

00:43:56.887 --> 00:44:00.088
filmmaking and novels.

00:44:01.268 --> 00:44:03.110
It really is, to me, an art form.

00:44:05.351 --> 00:44:06.132
Yeah, if I'm correct,

00:44:06.172 --> 00:44:07.833
I think the video game industry is

00:44:07.893 --> 00:44:11.076
actually bigger as far as like it's how

00:44:11.096 --> 00:44:12.876
much it makes compared to the movie

00:44:12.896 --> 00:44:14.458
industry and the music industry, too.

00:44:14.498 --> 00:44:16.320
So it's it's probably one of the one

00:44:16.340 --> 00:44:17.780
of the biggest grossing forms of

00:44:17.800 --> 00:44:19.681
entertainment going right now.

00:44:20.041 --> 00:44:20.342
Yeah.

00:44:20.882 --> 00:44:21.123
Yeah.

00:44:21.202 --> 00:44:21.923
It's pretty wild.

00:44:23.023 --> 00:44:23.284
Yeah.

00:44:24.550 --> 00:44:26.612
So Ghost of Yokai, I've heard about that.

00:44:27.072 --> 00:44:29.574
Tell me about what is exciting about Ghost

00:44:29.594 --> 00:44:30.094
of Yokai.

00:44:31.375 --> 00:44:32.536
I know about it because I think there's

00:44:32.556 --> 00:44:36.458
some critical role friends and voice

00:44:36.518 --> 00:44:38.400
actors that are doing some of the stuff

00:44:38.440 --> 00:44:38.780
in there.

00:44:38.920 --> 00:44:41.382
So that's how I've heard of it.

00:44:41.443 --> 00:44:41.643
Yeah,

00:44:41.682 --> 00:44:43.643
now I haven't dove into the game yet.

00:44:43.724 --> 00:44:45.266
I actually just installed it over the

00:44:45.286 --> 00:44:45.726
weekend.

00:44:46.045 --> 00:44:49.148
But I played the first version,

00:44:49.168 --> 00:44:50.750
which was called Ghost of Tsushima.

00:44:51.789 --> 00:44:52.030
And...

00:44:53.463 --> 00:44:54.003
That game,

00:44:54.103 --> 00:44:56.025
I think I put in about ninety hours

00:44:56.045 --> 00:44:56.625
into that game.

00:44:56.664 --> 00:44:58.405
Like it's just an unreal amount of time.

00:44:58.445 --> 00:44:59.545
I just I loved it so much.

00:44:59.565 --> 00:45:00.405
I think I finished it.

00:45:01.045 --> 00:45:02.226
I could have probably finished it in about

00:45:02.485 --> 00:45:04.086
forty, forty five hour mark.

00:45:04.306 --> 00:45:05.947
But it was just there was something about

00:45:05.987 --> 00:45:06.047
it.

00:45:06.086 --> 00:45:08.027
I just enjoyed going to do all of

00:45:08.068 --> 00:45:09.007
those extra cycles.

00:45:09.047 --> 00:45:10.208
Like I find most games,

00:45:10.288 --> 00:45:11.349
once you get to the end game,

00:45:11.389 --> 00:45:13.028
it feels repetitive and you just don't

00:45:13.068 --> 00:45:13.768
care anymore.

00:45:13.889 --> 00:45:15.809
Yeah, no, this game I wanted more.

00:45:15.869 --> 00:45:17.769
So I chose to not go and complete

00:45:17.789 --> 00:45:19.050
the game because I just wanted to keep

00:45:19.090 --> 00:45:19.951
exploring and

00:45:20.630 --> 00:45:22.452
Kept going and somewhere around the ninety

00:45:22.492 --> 00:45:24.432
minute ninety hour mark, I decided,

00:45:24.452 --> 00:45:24.672
all right,

00:45:24.693 --> 00:45:26.114
it's time to time to wrap this up

00:45:26.153 --> 00:45:26.653
and move on.

00:45:26.693 --> 00:45:28.434
It's been like six months, you know,

00:45:28.474 --> 00:45:29.255
tons of other games.

00:45:29.295 --> 00:45:31.275
But there's something about the samurai

00:45:31.315 --> 00:45:33.956
genre and the way that game controlled and

00:45:33.976 --> 00:45:34.918
the way it felt.

00:45:35.057 --> 00:45:36.418
It just felt really good.

00:45:36.458 --> 00:45:37.059
It was fun.

00:45:37.079 --> 00:45:38.639
The combat system was great.

00:45:39.320 --> 00:45:41.161
It had enough of an upgrade system to

00:45:41.181 --> 00:45:42.422
keep my interest going.

00:45:42.501 --> 00:45:44.643
So when I saw the next one get

00:45:44.682 --> 00:45:46.403
announced, I immediately pre-ordered it.

00:45:46.423 --> 00:45:47.224
And I looked at it and I said,

00:45:47.244 --> 00:45:47.344
well,

00:45:47.364 --> 00:45:48.824
that comes out right before WordCamp.

00:45:48.844 --> 00:45:49.945
So I'll see you in November.

00:45:50.005 --> 00:45:51.106
And here we are.

00:45:51.146 --> 00:45:52.106
And I'm going to dive in.

00:45:52.226 --> 00:45:53.766
Awesome.

00:45:53.947 --> 00:45:55.068
Well, thank you so much, Troy,

00:45:55.088 --> 00:45:55.728
for coming on.

00:45:56.509 --> 00:45:58.789
For anyone who's interested in learning

00:45:58.829 --> 00:46:00.230
more about you or finding you online,

00:46:00.271 --> 00:46:01.110
where can people find you?

00:46:02.425 --> 00:46:04.626
I just actually rebooted my personal site

00:46:04.907 --> 00:46:06.768
for the first time in a decade.

00:46:06.809 --> 00:46:08.670
So I'm now going to be blogging at

00:46:08.730 --> 00:46:09.929
troychaplin.ca.

00:46:11.652 --> 00:46:13.972
You can also find me on post status

00:46:14.333 --> 00:46:16.054
or make WordPress if you have any

00:46:16.074 --> 00:46:19.135
questions or want to touch base or if

00:46:19.155 --> 00:46:20.577
you want more information around the block

00:46:20.617 --> 00:46:21.918
accessibility work I'm doing,

00:46:21.958 --> 00:46:22.518
you can check out

00:46:22.577 --> 00:46:24.498
blockaccessibilitychecks.com.

00:46:25.760 --> 00:46:27.561
Yeah, I think that's pretty much it.

00:46:27.840 --> 00:46:29.543
And the plugin is on WordPress.org.

00:46:29.563 --> 00:46:32.085
So you can download it just in your

00:46:32.105 --> 00:46:36.028
WordPress admin and install it and play

00:46:36.068 --> 00:46:38.251
around with it.

00:46:38.291 --> 00:46:40.293
Well, thanks again, Troy, for coming on.

00:46:40.554 --> 00:46:41.034
Thank you,

00:46:41.134 --> 00:46:42.775
everyone who is watching or listening to

00:46:42.795 --> 00:46:43.617
this in the future.

00:46:44.056 --> 00:46:45.137
And for everyone else,

00:46:45.498 --> 00:46:47.661
we'll see you on the internet.

00:46:47.701 --> 00:46:47.960
Awesome.

00:46:47.981 --> 00:46:49.041
Thank you very much, Chris.

00:46:49.121 --> 00:46:49.342
Yep.

00:46:49.402 --> 00:46:49.682
Thank you.