WEBVTT 00:00:00.592 --> 00:00:02.453 Carl Alexander talks fast and a lot of 00:00:02.473 --> 00:00:04.434 stuff he talks about touches on subjects 00:00:04.854 --> 00:00:06.394 that a lot of developers hope to never 00:00:06.434 --> 00:00:07.235 have to think about. 00:00:08.115 --> 00:00:10.856 I've seen him talks in the WordPress space 00:00:10.896 --> 00:00:12.597 and known him as the serverless guy, 00:00:12.637 --> 00:00:13.737 having founded Emir, 00:00:14.117 --> 00:00:15.938 a serverless DevOps platform that takes 00:00:15.978 --> 00:00:18.299 the headache out of managing your own AWS 00:00:18.359 --> 00:00:18.959 infrastructure. 00:00:19.279 --> 00:00:20.900 But Carl says this is actually his second 00:00:20.980 --> 00:00:21.220 act. 00:00:21.469 --> 00:00:22.762 In this episode, 00:00:22.782 --> 00:00:24.163 we get to meet the guy behind the 00:00:24.223 --> 00:00:26.285 full-size stand-up poster and book on 00:00:26.365 --> 00:00:28.386 object-oriented programming to talk about 00:00:28.427 --> 00:00:30.188 his early start in programming and 00:00:30.208 --> 00:00:32.430 robotics and how he accidentally fell into 00:00:32.470 --> 00:00:34.351 WordPress development and the challenges 00:00:34.411 --> 00:00:36.032 of building a business from the ground up 00:00:36.212 --> 00:00:38.454 while being bad at marketing. 00:00:38.534 --> 00:00:39.835 If you've never met Carl in person, 00:00:40.215 --> 00:00:40.756 buckle up. 00:00:41.036 --> 00:00:42.137 I think you're going to enjoy this one. 00:01:01.844 --> 00:01:03.303 Welcome to Community Code, 00:01:03.343 --> 00:01:04.564 Community and Code, 00:01:04.885 --> 00:01:06.444 the podcast where we talk to the human 00:01:06.465 --> 00:01:07.505 beings behind the commits. 00:01:07.765 --> 00:01:09.685 I'm here today with Carl Alexander, 00:01:10.107 --> 00:01:13.467 a longtime WordPress developer. 00:01:13.608 --> 00:01:15.168 But really, if you know Carl, 00:01:15.207 --> 00:01:16.408 if you've seen Carl talk, 00:01:17.208 --> 00:01:19.708 if you have done anything like that, 00:01:20.870 --> 00:01:25.350 you've probably associated him with the 00:01:25.411 --> 00:01:27.531 concept of serverless for WordPress. 00:01:27.711 --> 00:01:29.652 And we'll talk a little bit about that, 00:01:29.731 --> 00:01:30.073 I think. 00:01:30.513 --> 00:01:31.193 Yeah. 00:01:32.228 --> 00:01:35.273 Welcome and yeah, tell us about yourself. 00:01:36.411 --> 00:01:37.231 Oh my goodness. 00:01:37.392 --> 00:01:38.493 I mean, yeah, 00:01:38.652 --> 00:01:41.313 I think now I'm like the serverless guy, 00:01:41.372 --> 00:01:42.593 but I was like, I, 00:01:43.054 --> 00:01:44.213 in the twenties tens, 00:01:44.274 --> 00:01:46.573 I was like the object oriented guy. 00:01:46.633 --> 00:01:49.255 Basically I wrote like this, uh, 00:01:49.274 --> 00:01:51.035 I was writing all these articles on how 00:01:51.076 --> 00:01:53.055 to do proper object oriented programming 00:01:53.076 --> 00:01:53.835 with WordPress. 00:01:53.896 --> 00:01:55.235 I even wrote a book on it. 00:01:55.255 --> 00:01:58.137 So it's like, it's like my second act, 00:01:58.296 --> 00:01:58.896 if you will, 00:02:00.298 --> 00:02:01.698 inside the WordPress community. 00:02:02.177 --> 00:02:03.819 But yeah, no, I, I mean, 00:02:03.899 --> 00:02:05.459 my trajectory has been. 00:02:05.978 --> 00:02:07.200 Long. 00:02:07.219 --> 00:02:08.320 I think I started programming when I was 00:02:08.340 --> 00:02:11.002 like seven or eight years old or 00:02:11.063 --> 00:02:11.543 something. 00:02:11.603 --> 00:02:13.245 And then around that time, 00:02:13.284 --> 00:02:15.287 I also did my first robotics project. 00:02:16.287 --> 00:02:18.329 So I've been like involved in tech, 00:02:18.349 --> 00:02:20.370 you know, from a young age too. 00:02:20.430 --> 00:02:22.112 Like same thing with the serverless. 00:02:22.212 --> 00:02:23.834 When I gave a talk on that, 00:02:23.873 --> 00:02:26.156 I say like I've been assistant men for 00:02:26.355 --> 00:02:26.716 almost... 00:02:27.137 --> 00:02:29.457 dirty years, you know, 00:02:29.477 --> 00:02:30.977 like I've been playing with servers since 00:02:30.998 --> 00:02:32.799 I'm in my teens, you know? 00:02:32.858 --> 00:02:35.539 So it was just like, uh, so yeah, 00:02:35.578 --> 00:02:37.040 I've been around, but yeah. 00:02:37.079 --> 00:02:38.099 And the WordPress space, 00:02:38.120 --> 00:02:39.820 that's like my second act right now is 00:02:39.859 --> 00:02:43.141 the stuff, but I, I, yeah, 00:02:43.662 --> 00:02:44.481 there's a lot of stuff. 00:02:44.721 --> 00:02:47.022 I just get hyper focused on a couple 00:02:47.061 --> 00:02:47.823 of topics. 00:02:48.063 --> 00:02:49.722 Like that's, that's one of them. 00:02:50.602 --> 00:02:51.183 The other one, 00:02:51.603 --> 00:02:53.284 we were talking just a bit pre-show. 00:02:53.364 --> 00:02:55.144 I've been trying to do pitches for work 00:02:55.165 --> 00:02:55.844 camps on, uh, 00:02:58.436 --> 00:02:59.837 like mental health stuff, 00:02:59.936 --> 00:03:02.558 like not necessarily like depression, 00:03:02.597 --> 00:03:04.299 but just like how to, you know, 00:03:04.338 --> 00:03:07.120 like I recently, 00:03:07.540 --> 00:03:08.961 I don't have an official diagnosis, 00:03:09.020 --> 00:03:10.542 but like I'm definitely autistic. 00:03:10.681 --> 00:03:11.641 I have ADHD. 00:03:11.662 --> 00:03:12.643 We were talking about that. 00:03:12.883 --> 00:03:13.462 I was talking, 00:03:14.022 --> 00:03:16.663 I basically always have a drink because I 00:03:16.843 --> 00:03:19.025 learned early in my life that nobody would 00:03:19.185 --> 00:03:20.126 get upset at you 00:03:21.145 --> 00:03:22.627 if you were holding a drink or always 00:03:22.687 --> 00:03:24.447 drinking something instead of like playing 00:03:24.467 --> 00:03:25.068 with your hands, 00:03:25.087 --> 00:03:27.308 even though I have like a Captain America 00:03:27.348 --> 00:03:29.049 fidget toy and that stuff. 00:03:30.289 --> 00:03:32.070 So I've been applying WordCamp with that 00:03:32.211 --> 00:03:32.730 as well, 00:03:33.550 --> 00:03:36.032 but haven't done a talk on that yet. 00:03:36.092 --> 00:03:37.052 But it's like, 00:03:37.793 --> 00:03:39.233 I talk a lot about it as well. 00:03:40.074 --> 00:03:41.313 Just like less, 00:03:42.974 --> 00:03:44.795 I'm less vocal about it and it's less 00:03:44.855 --> 00:03:46.116 techie, you know, 00:03:46.156 --> 00:03:47.817 like serverless kind of like sexy, 00:03:47.956 --> 00:03:49.116 you know, like they're like, ooh, 00:03:49.698 --> 00:03:50.337 like serverless. 00:03:51.198 --> 00:03:55.020 Are there servers with serverless and all 00:03:55.060 --> 00:03:55.539 that stuff? 00:03:55.560 --> 00:03:57.221 So I get more talks about that, 00:03:57.260 --> 00:03:58.762 but I'm really passionate about the second 00:03:58.782 --> 00:04:00.203 thing too. 00:04:00.242 --> 00:04:01.842 Yeah. 00:04:02.062 --> 00:04:03.283 Let's start at the beginning. 00:04:04.104 --> 00:04:08.086 You mentioned that you got into 00:04:08.507 --> 00:04:10.266 programming and robotics really early. 00:04:11.108 --> 00:04:14.049 Was computers and technology always just 00:04:14.088 --> 00:04:16.729 sort of around you and how did that 00:04:16.770 --> 00:04:17.550 sort of cultivate? 00:04:18.390 --> 00:04:20.551 Oh, yeah. 00:04:20.611 --> 00:04:25.354 My dad got a computer pretty early on 00:04:25.533 --> 00:04:28.115 that was by Philips, if you believe, 00:04:28.474 --> 00:04:30.036 which for the longest time, 00:04:30.455 --> 00:04:31.657 I don't know how much people know about 00:04:31.697 --> 00:04:33.758 Philips, but basically, like, in my mind, 00:04:33.918 --> 00:04:35.718 Philips was always, like, razors and, 00:04:35.799 --> 00:04:38.340 like, you know, but they're a huge... 00:04:38.979 --> 00:04:41.161 They're a huge, huge, huge conglomerate. 00:04:41.401 --> 00:04:43.681 And the, you know, ASML, 00:04:43.701 --> 00:04:45.302 which everybody knows now for the chips, 00:04:45.483 --> 00:04:46.603 spawns from Philips. 00:04:47.182 --> 00:04:48.463 NVIDIA spawns from Philips. 00:04:48.503 --> 00:04:52.085 It's just, again, 00:04:52.164 --> 00:04:53.325 I didn't know how much they did tech, 00:04:53.346 --> 00:04:56.447 but I still was like, a Philips computer? 00:04:56.507 --> 00:04:58.888 Why isn't it like a Heuer Packard, like, 00:04:59.008 --> 00:05:01.729 or like a, you know, Compaq, 00:05:01.829 --> 00:05:03.909 if you remember Compaq computer or stuff 00:05:03.930 --> 00:05:04.971 like that. 00:05:04.991 --> 00:05:07.092 So we had a computer lab at my... 00:05:09.514 --> 00:05:12.836 um elementary school um sorry sometimes i 00:05:12.895 --> 00:05:15.097 look i i think of the french words 00:05:15.157 --> 00:05:17.838 but uh basically uh but yeah in the 00:05:17.899 --> 00:05:19.639 home entry school so i did like the 00:05:19.680 --> 00:05:21.321 robotics project there and that was with 00:05:21.740 --> 00:05:23.281 they were apple actually they were apple 00:05:23.322 --> 00:05:25.062 and then it became ibm but it was 00:05:25.103 --> 00:05:26.803 with apple it was like logo did you 00:05:26.843 --> 00:05:28.665 ever play logo like use logo 00:05:29.461 --> 00:05:30.420 I think so. 00:05:30.800 --> 00:05:31.922 It was like the little turtle. 00:05:32.062 --> 00:05:34.862 So it's instructions and stuff. 00:05:34.961 --> 00:05:38.062 So like I basically built animations with 00:05:38.242 --> 00:05:40.144 the thing and then the animations would 00:05:40.163 --> 00:05:40.843 control. 00:05:40.903 --> 00:05:43.564 Like I had like a hydroplane one year. 00:05:43.644 --> 00:05:45.704 So we had like a tub with water 00:05:46.105 --> 00:05:47.365 and it had propellers. 00:05:47.624 --> 00:05:49.846 One year was like a Ferris wheel and 00:05:49.886 --> 00:05:50.386 all that stuff. 00:05:50.406 --> 00:05:53.067 So I would have the animation control the 00:05:53.127 --> 00:05:53.846 real thing. 00:05:55.146 --> 00:05:56.908 It's like a radio interview at some point 00:05:56.968 --> 00:05:57.468 about it. 00:05:57.507 --> 00:05:58.247 So yeah, 00:05:58.528 --> 00:05:59.108 I did that. 00:05:59.168 --> 00:06:00.492 Then I went to high school. 00:06:00.531 --> 00:06:01.112 And in high school, 00:06:01.153 --> 00:06:02.314 I kind of fell off for a bit. 00:06:03.961 --> 00:06:06.002 I did some basic and some three D 00:06:06.041 --> 00:06:07.862 stuff, but a bit of web. 00:06:08.502 --> 00:06:09.922 I missed my calling. 00:06:09.961 --> 00:06:12.023 Like I read all these people that got 00:06:12.083 --> 00:06:13.822 into web early and I was just like 00:06:13.963 --> 00:06:16.923 not really into it and all that. 00:06:17.084 --> 00:06:18.564 And then college was like computer 00:06:18.603 --> 00:06:19.184 engineering. 00:06:19.303 --> 00:06:22.884 So it was more hardware. 00:06:23.404 --> 00:06:25.506 I did the more computer science option, 00:06:26.185 --> 00:06:27.706 but I didn't do that much programming. 00:06:28.225 --> 00:06:29.406 I kind of fell off for a little 00:06:29.447 --> 00:06:29.646 bit. 00:06:31.146 --> 00:06:32.168 And then I came back to it. 00:06:32.189 --> 00:06:33.711 Like my first job was in the law 00:06:33.730 --> 00:06:33.992 firm. 00:06:34.391 --> 00:06:35.134 Like I did like, 00:06:35.394 --> 00:06:38.459 I did sysadmin stuff for a law firm 00:06:38.499 --> 00:06:39.940 and then I started building tools for 00:06:39.961 --> 00:06:40.201 them. 00:06:40.461 --> 00:06:42.004 Like, um, 00:06:42.672 --> 00:06:44.333 And that's actually a really important 00:06:44.552 --> 00:06:46.855 point is I love building tools, 00:06:48.475 --> 00:06:50.156 which is a bit like how the serverless 00:06:50.197 --> 00:06:51.637 and a lot of my projects have gone. 00:06:51.677 --> 00:06:53.218 But I like building tools and I just 00:06:53.740 --> 00:06:55.021 realized that I like programming. 00:06:55.060 --> 00:06:57.201 So I went back into it and that's 00:06:57.221 --> 00:06:58.202 been the journey. 00:06:58.283 --> 00:06:59.783 Well, not quite. 00:06:59.884 --> 00:07:00.605 I did agency, 00:07:00.644 --> 00:07:01.745 then I was going to do MBA. 00:07:01.764 --> 00:07:03.687 Then I realized I like programming more 00:07:03.766 --> 00:07:05.028 than being a business person. 00:07:05.048 --> 00:07:06.588 So I went back. 00:07:07.048 --> 00:07:09.029 But I always joke because I applied to 00:07:09.089 --> 00:07:11.370 Harvard and Stanford and all those places 00:07:11.391 --> 00:07:12.632 because I had pretty high grades, 00:07:12.692 --> 00:07:13.932 but I didn't get in. 00:07:14.853 --> 00:07:17.053 And I'm glad that I didn't basically. 00:07:18.053 --> 00:07:19.475 It would have been a very different life 00:07:19.495 --> 00:07:19.814 for me. 00:07:20.014 --> 00:07:22.497 And I like programming too much to get. 00:07:22.516 --> 00:07:24.156 So anyways, it always drives me back. 00:07:24.216 --> 00:07:24.898 That's like the kind of... 00:07:25.658 --> 00:07:27.560 that's like kind of my journey it's always 00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:30.302 like i try to get off like i 00:07:30.541 --> 00:07:32.764 i kind of get dragged out of programming 00:07:33.024 --> 00:07:36.307 in some way and my heart is really 00:07:36.406 --> 00:07:38.788 in it and it's like i just kind 00:07:38.848 --> 00:07:40.170 of follow my heart a lot in my 00:07:40.211 --> 00:07:42.992 life and it just brings me back here 00:07:43.093 --> 00:07:45.915 that's why i love the wordpress community 00:07:46.014 --> 00:07:47.797 i started teaching programming even though 00:07:47.937 --> 00:07:48.997 like a lot of the stuff i was 00:07:49.017 --> 00:07:50.598 teaching was very high end 00:07:51.839 --> 00:07:53.822 um from the get-go like i was just 00:07:54.262 --> 00:07:55.942 you know i used to have these slides 00:07:55.963 --> 00:07:57.184 that were like you lost me at hi 00:07:57.204 --> 00:07:59.365 i'm carl you know which was like the 00:07:59.406 --> 00:08:00.867 first slide and i was just it was 00:08:00.887 --> 00:08:03.048 just there to be like ask questions don't 00:08:03.067 --> 00:08:06.711 be intimidated yeah i'm like a lot of 00:08:06.730 --> 00:08:09.411 people are here are self-taught um and 00:08:09.451 --> 00:08:11.233 don't have like a former computer science 00:08:11.254 --> 00:08:13.095 background and i'm just here to like 00:08:13.403 --> 00:08:15.245 explain things to you like how to do 00:08:15.285 --> 00:08:19.410 them how to do them differently um in 00:08:19.430 --> 00:08:20.891 a way that makes sense because a lot 00:08:20.932 --> 00:08:22.153 of the problem with object-oriented 00:08:22.192 --> 00:08:24.055 programming and wordpress was just that 00:08:24.314 --> 00:08:27.199 people would try to implement things like 00:08:27.218 --> 00:08:29.141 classes and then they didn't really 00:08:29.180 --> 00:08:31.704 understand why classes exists 00:08:32.785 --> 00:08:33.846 had to use them and, 00:08:34.526 --> 00:08:36.088 or like what they were supposed to do 00:08:36.148 --> 00:08:37.468 and they would make stuff. 00:08:37.548 --> 00:08:38.509 And then they were like, well, 00:08:38.550 --> 00:08:40.290 this doesn't feel good. 00:08:40.492 --> 00:08:41.612 And also like, 00:08:42.192 --> 00:08:44.454 I don't feel like it helps. 00:08:44.654 --> 00:08:46.136 And it didn't because they weren't, 00:08:47.036 --> 00:08:48.017 and it wasn't their fault. 00:08:48.197 --> 00:08:48.437 Right. 00:08:48.458 --> 00:08:50.800 Like it was just like WordPress is largely 00:08:52.762 --> 00:08:53.422 procedural. 00:08:54.002 --> 00:08:56.264 So, and trying to, 00:08:57.737 --> 00:08:59.961 repackage this in a more object-oriented 00:09:00.021 --> 00:09:01.925 way requires a lot of high-level 00:09:02.506 --> 00:09:03.708 architectural thinking. 00:09:05.435 --> 00:09:06.456 That is hard. 00:09:06.656 --> 00:09:06.836 Like, 00:09:06.877 --> 00:09:08.939 it's like when you use a framework like 00:09:08.978 --> 00:09:10.100 Symphony or Laravel, 00:09:10.220 --> 00:09:11.540 a lot of that thinking is done for 00:09:11.581 --> 00:09:11.721 you. 00:09:11.781 --> 00:09:14.122 You have like all the primitives that you 00:09:14.262 --> 00:09:16.745 can use and you don't have that with 00:09:16.766 --> 00:09:17.206 WordPress. 00:09:17.225 --> 00:09:18.646 So I was teaching you how to build 00:09:18.687 --> 00:09:21.228 these primitives that I still use today. 00:09:21.309 --> 00:09:23.610 Like, like Emir, my serverless platform, 00:09:23.690 --> 00:09:25.692 like has a plugin and it's all object 00:09:25.713 --> 00:09:26.353 oriented programming, 00:09:26.394 --> 00:09:28.535 but it's using all stuff that's like, 00:09:29.295 --> 00:09:31.959 from years ago like uh wp rocket uses 00:09:32.199 --> 00:09:33.940 like i have code attributed to me and 00:09:34.200 --> 00:09:36.684 wp rocket because it's just like it's a 00:09:36.743 --> 00:09:39.626 primitive like that is good and doesn't 00:09:39.646 --> 00:09:41.507 really need anything else like it's just 00:09:41.627 --> 00:09:43.710 it's been good for like almost a decade 00:09:43.771 --> 00:09:45.571 and it's still good because it solves the 00:09:45.612 --> 00:09:48.135 problem in a in an elegant and clean 00:09:48.175 --> 00:09:51.297 way and you just keep using it so 00:09:51.318 --> 00:09:52.760 that was a lot of sorry i like 00:09:53.916 --> 00:09:55.777 I'm like the master of going on tangents. 00:09:56.539 --> 00:09:58.059 This is great. 00:09:58.079 --> 00:09:59.420 This is what we're about. 00:10:00.001 --> 00:10:01.180 I'm happy to go on tangents. 00:10:01.261 --> 00:10:02.242 I will circle back. 00:10:02.262 --> 00:10:03.902 Okay. 00:10:03.922 --> 00:10:05.623 I wanted to ask about, 00:10:05.804 --> 00:10:09.906 you said when you went to do computer 00:10:09.945 --> 00:10:10.406 engineering, 00:10:10.426 --> 00:10:11.926 you were thinking more hardware and not 00:10:11.987 --> 00:10:12.387 software. 00:10:13.888 --> 00:10:14.988 Where did you see that going? 00:10:15.569 --> 00:10:16.550 Or did you see that going? 00:10:16.609 --> 00:10:18.190 Is that just an interesting thing at the 00:10:18.231 --> 00:10:18.511 time? 00:10:18.611 --> 00:10:19.691 Or did you actually have... 00:10:19.972 --> 00:10:21.012 Like when I graduate, 00:10:21.053 --> 00:10:22.154 maybe I'll do this thing. 00:10:22.473 --> 00:10:23.714 I mean, there was so, I mean, 00:10:23.935 --> 00:10:26.695 nobody ever, it was such a different time. 00:10:26.857 --> 00:10:28.036 Like, so for context, 00:10:28.277 --> 00:10:30.459 I graduated computer engineering in 00:10:30.579 --> 00:10:32.000 twenty, two thousand six. 00:10:32.640 --> 00:10:34.421 So twenty years ago, I should have gone. 00:10:34.441 --> 00:10:36.142 It's going to be my twenty year reunion 00:10:36.183 --> 00:10:36.622 this year. 00:10:38.304 --> 00:10:41.665 And back in two thousand six, you know, 00:10:41.926 --> 00:10:43.608 like so much of what you can do 00:10:43.667 --> 00:10:45.368 today wasn't possible. 00:10:45.468 --> 00:10:45.689 Right. 00:10:45.728 --> 00:10:46.890 Like, yeah. 00:10:48.364 --> 00:10:50.068 if you wanted to work on computer chips, 00:10:50.088 --> 00:10:50.569 for example, 00:10:50.628 --> 00:10:52.472 like your options were largely just go 00:10:52.512 --> 00:10:54.896 work at Intel or like a couple of 00:10:55.175 --> 00:10:58.541 like AMD or like, you know, but small, 00:10:58.582 --> 00:10:59.282 like there's like, 00:11:00.338 --> 00:11:02.920 you couldn't imagine today that you could 00:11:02.940 --> 00:11:03.881 just design a chip, 00:11:03.920 --> 00:11:06.422 send it to China and get that done, 00:11:06.603 --> 00:11:06.782 right? 00:11:06.862 --> 00:11:07.684 Like it's just like, 00:11:08.143 --> 00:11:10.104 same thing with the treaty printing and 00:11:10.125 --> 00:11:10.704 all that stuff. 00:11:10.744 --> 00:11:12.546 Like treaty printers were an entire 00:11:12.566 --> 00:11:15.068 department budget in two thousand six. 00:11:16.549 --> 00:11:18.349 So I loved it, 00:11:18.510 --> 00:11:20.632 but it was just like, there was no, 00:11:21.112 --> 00:11:22.333 you know, I only know, 00:11:22.473 --> 00:11:23.553 I'm sure there's more than one, 00:11:23.612 --> 00:11:25.233 but like out of like the circle of 00:11:25.273 --> 00:11:27.715 people I know, first of all, 00:11:28.055 --> 00:11:28.696 I'm from Montreal. 00:11:29.997 --> 00:11:30.916 I didn't study Montreal, 00:11:30.936 --> 00:11:32.218 which is very unusual, 00:11:32.277 --> 00:11:34.559 but all my friends in Montreal basically 00:11:34.579 --> 00:11:35.299 that did engineering, 00:11:35.559 --> 00:11:36.858 they all work in the gaming industry 00:11:37.039 --> 00:11:38.719 because that's basically where you went 00:11:38.800 --> 00:11:40.540 because Montreal is kind of like the 00:11:40.580 --> 00:11:41.940 gaming industry mecca, 00:11:42.001 --> 00:11:44.742 like almost every large studio has studios 00:11:44.781 --> 00:11:44.941 here. 00:11:46.502 --> 00:11:49.324 So you basically just everybody went into 00:11:49.364 --> 00:11:49.604 that. 00:11:49.665 --> 00:11:51.565 But where I went in Kingston, 00:11:52.487 --> 00:11:54.167 most people also ended up as software 00:11:54.188 --> 00:11:55.449 developers, basically, 00:11:56.589 --> 00:11:58.010 because there was just not a lot of 00:11:58.069 --> 00:12:01.473 jobs for people that knew how to make 00:12:01.492 --> 00:12:03.873 computer chips or all that low level 00:12:03.914 --> 00:12:04.093 stuff. 00:12:05.344 --> 00:12:07.306 I love compiler class, but it's, 00:12:07.387 --> 00:12:09.047 there's no point in building a compiler, 00:12:09.088 --> 00:12:10.890 you know, except for fun, 00:12:11.069 --> 00:12:11.830 which you can do. 00:12:11.930 --> 00:12:12.531 But it was just, 00:12:12.972 --> 00:12:14.492 that was like where the careers were. 00:12:15.032 --> 00:12:15.694 And for me, 00:12:16.594 --> 00:12:18.236 it was even because of the 00:12:18.276 --> 00:12:19.357 catch-twenty-two, 00:12:19.757 --> 00:12:21.478 I'd already been doing summer jobs for 00:12:21.498 --> 00:12:22.180 this law firm. 00:12:22.199 --> 00:12:22.319 Right. 00:12:23.340 --> 00:12:24.901 And the director already knew me and he's 00:12:24.941 --> 00:12:27.143 like, I was like backpacking and he was, 00:12:27.705 --> 00:12:30.526 in Europe and he was just like, well, 00:12:30.566 --> 00:12:31.766 do you want to come work for us? 00:12:31.786 --> 00:12:33.387 And I was like, sure. 00:12:34.426 --> 00:12:35.808 I don't really know what else I'm going 00:12:35.828 --> 00:12:36.167 to do. 00:12:37.968 --> 00:12:39.208 So that seemed fine. 00:12:39.329 --> 00:12:41.888 I wasn't going to do tech support. 00:12:41.988 --> 00:12:44.170 I was going to be with the back 00:12:44.270 --> 00:12:45.650 end server people. 00:12:46.650 --> 00:12:47.650 So I was going to be kind of 00:12:47.670 --> 00:12:48.710 level two support. 00:12:48.751 --> 00:12:50.710 I would do some infra and all that 00:12:50.771 --> 00:12:52.911 stuff, which was interesting. 00:12:53.512 --> 00:12:54.271 So I was like, okay, 00:12:56.453 --> 00:12:58.194 But it was not clear what you could 00:12:58.233 --> 00:12:59.655 do. 00:13:03.178 --> 00:13:04.338 One of my housemates was in computer 00:13:04.378 --> 00:13:04.618 science. 00:13:04.638 --> 00:13:05.660 He's freaking brilliant. 00:13:06.099 --> 00:13:08.021 He basically started at Google that year. 00:13:08.061 --> 00:13:08.843 He's still at Google. 00:13:10.623 --> 00:13:11.984 But outside of that, 00:13:12.045 --> 00:13:13.707 most people didn't really know where to 00:13:13.766 --> 00:13:14.107 go. 00:13:14.286 --> 00:13:17.369 Computer software wasn't that big yet, 00:13:17.949 --> 00:13:18.830 even on its own. 00:13:18.891 --> 00:13:20.271 But it was just like, okay, well, 00:13:20.311 --> 00:13:21.912 Montreal had a lot of video game studios. 00:13:21.973 --> 00:13:23.954 So the computer engineers went to the 00:13:23.974 --> 00:13:25.095 video game studios and 00:13:25.816 --> 00:13:28.979 I wasn't that interested in video games. 00:13:29.020 --> 00:13:29.800 I did my computer. 00:13:30.421 --> 00:13:32.824 I did computer graphics thinking I would 00:13:32.863 --> 00:13:34.845 like computer graphics. 00:13:35.045 --> 00:13:38.829 And as gifted and brilliant as I am, 00:13:38.890 --> 00:13:41.191 my only class that I almost failed was 00:13:41.592 --> 00:13:42.612 linear algebra. 00:13:43.393 --> 00:13:46.415 and basically computer graphics is all 00:13:46.494 --> 00:13:49.155 linear algebra it's all like matrices and 00:13:49.396 --> 00:13:51.476 matrix transforms and all that stuff and 00:13:51.496 --> 00:13:54.337 that's the course i almost failed so so 00:13:54.757 --> 00:13:56.816 i was like and and i almost failed 00:13:56.837 --> 00:13:58.218 the computer graphics course so i was like 00:13:58.257 --> 00:14:00.297 there's just no way i'm going into video 00:14:00.358 --> 00:14:02.539 games i mean i still dream of making 00:14:02.559 --> 00:14:03.398 a video game but 00:14:03.878 --> 00:14:05.619 you know it was just not realistic at 00:14:05.640 --> 00:14:07.421 the time so there's enough things now 00:14:07.502 --> 00:14:08.582 there's enough tools that you don't have 00:14:08.602 --> 00:14:10.223 to worry about the graphics part anymore 00:14:10.424 --> 00:14:12.765 no exactly and i was just not involved 00:14:12.785 --> 00:14:15.987 in web like like i just didn't do 00:14:16.046 --> 00:14:18.007 any web you didn't do web at school 00:14:18.929 --> 00:14:22.371 right yeah like my exposure was java and 00:14:22.570 --> 00:14:25.392 i did some c sharp basically like some 00:14:25.412 --> 00:14:27.895 dot net true like going to like clubs 00:14:27.935 --> 00:14:29.636 and stuff like that but it was it 00:14:29.656 --> 00:14:31.676 was just very little like my summer job 00:14:31.696 --> 00:14:32.117 was like 00:14:32.617 --> 00:14:34.060 I did a summer job for the Canadian 00:14:34.119 --> 00:14:37.265 government, and that was still Java, 00:14:37.344 --> 00:14:38.666 like Tomcat servers. 00:14:39.667 --> 00:14:43.875 It didn't make web look fun at all, 00:14:44.175 --> 00:14:44.415 right? 00:14:44.454 --> 00:14:44.815 No. 00:14:45.696 --> 00:14:48.101 So I really missed the boat on that. 00:14:49.082 --> 00:14:51.243 Looking back at everybody's retrospective, 00:14:51.304 --> 00:14:54.366 you read about DHH and a lot of 00:14:54.386 --> 00:14:54.886 these people, 00:14:55.126 --> 00:14:57.007 they just got into the web really early. 00:14:57.627 --> 00:14:59.868 And I just didn't get the right exposure 00:14:59.910 --> 00:15:00.430 for that. 00:15:01.050 --> 00:15:02.771 So it just never kind of appealed to 00:15:02.811 --> 00:15:04.353 me until actually I got to WordPress. 00:15:04.433 --> 00:15:05.814 WordPress is how I got into web 00:15:05.834 --> 00:15:06.294 development. 00:15:07.714 --> 00:15:09.715 That's a pretty fascinating introduction. 00:15:09.736 --> 00:15:09.915 Yeah. 00:15:11.503 --> 00:15:14.045 um yeah no i i uh i rode 00:15:14.065 --> 00:15:16.426 the geocities wave uh i was big on 00:15:16.467 --> 00:15:19.748 geocities i had a handful of of dumb 00:15:19.768 --> 00:15:22.491 little sites and then i started uh because 00:15:22.590 --> 00:15:24.693 i was uh involved in the san francisco 00:15:24.713 --> 00:15:26.773 sort of goth community and that was all 00:15:26.794 --> 00:15:30.935 sort of like bbs's and uh irc actually 00:15:30.955 --> 00:15:34.898 it's pre-irc uh like message boards and 00:15:35.159 --> 00:15:37.720 and uh there was um 00:15:38.220 --> 00:15:40.583 there was a sfgoth.net was sort of like 00:15:40.622 --> 00:15:42.044 the hub and i knew the the guy 00:15:42.064 --> 00:15:43.385 that ran it and i got a i 00:15:43.405 --> 00:15:45.286 was able to get a page on that 00:15:45.325 --> 00:15:47.127 and that was sort of like my first 00:15:47.286 --> 00:15:50.790 real non-geocities site um yeah 00:15:51.401 --> 00:15:53.722 And back then, it was like, 00:15:54.483 --> 00:15:57.404 if you wanted to do something functional, 00:15:58.824 --> 00:16:02.627 it was like, well, here's a Perl script, 00:16:03.107 --> 00:16:05.728 or here's like a CGI bin or something 00:16:06.209 --> 00:16:09.250 that you can drop into your site and 00:16:09.270 --> 00:16:11.111 it will maybe do something useful, 00:16:11.651 --> 00:16:15.074 which was not very fun at all. 00:16:15.233 --> 00:16:17.895 And I also, and I never, yeah, 00:16:17.935 --> 00:16:18.955 that was not a thing that I... 00:16:20.233 --> 00:16:21.715 could see myself writing, 00:16:21.795 --> 00:16:24.078 even though I did take a couple 00:16:24.118 --> 00:16:26.080 programming classes in college, but yeah, 00:16:26.101 --> 00:16:27.803 I was mostly self-taught. 00:16:28.063 --> 00:16:30.325 And that actually segues into, 00:16:30.786 --> 00:16:32.348 you've taught and you've wrote a book. 00:16:33.088 --> 00:16:35.031 Tell me about how that sort of started 00:16:35.070 --> 00:16:36.412 and came to be. 00:16:37.790 --> 00:16:38.492 Oh my goodness. 00:16:39.332 --> 00:16:39.593 Okay. 00:16:39.632 --> 00:16:41.753 Well, we'll have to drill a bit back. 00:16:41.973 --> 00:16:45.016 So, so I started doing web development. 00:16:45.797 --> 00:16:47.279 I got hired as the first, 00:16:47.699 --> 00:16:50.580 basically like this agency was like being 00:16:50.601 --> 00:16:53.042 hired to like make a website for, 00:16:53.063 --> 00:16:54.263 I was trying to hire, 00:16:54.363 --> 00:16:56.366 I was trying to apply for a.net position. 00:16:56.526 --> 00:16:58.127 And then funny enough, 00:16:58.186 --> 00:17:00.088 like everybody thinks I'm like great at 00:17:00.348 --> 00:17:00.890 programming, 00:17:00.949 --> 00:17:02.570 but I could not pass a programming 00:17:02.611 --> 00:17:03.771 interview to save my life. 00:17:03.832 --> 00:17:04.411 Basically. 00:17:04.553 --> 00:17:05.753 Like I was just like, 00:17:06.493 --> 00:17:08.055 you know like i would kill the soft 00:17:08.094 --> 00:17:09.896 skill stuff we'd talk everything's great 00:17:09.915 --> 00:17:11.717 they're just like i even applied to 00:17:11.816 --> 00:17:13.537 ubisoft that way it was like they're like 00:17:13.819 --> 00:17:15.599 cool we just need to make you pass 00:17:15.780 --> 00:17:18.200 uh like a quick exam and then you 00:17:18.281 --> 00:17:19.702 will probably be good to go and i 00:17:19.722 --> 00:17:20.963 was like oh no i'll never hear from 00:17:21.002 --> 00:17:26.006 you again basically uh and um so i 00:17:26.026 --> 00:17:27.786 applied for this.net position and they 00:17:27.806 --> 00:17:28.507 were like uh 00:17:29.209 --> 00:17:31.433 you're kind of weak, but you know, 00:17:31.473 --> 00:17:31.813 we have, 00:17:31.833 --> 00:17:33.835 do you know anything about WordPress or 00:17:33.876 --> 00:17:34.396 something like that? 00:17:34.416 --> 00:17:34.978 I was like, no, 00:17:34.997 --> 00:17:36.258 but I don't learn anything. 00:17:36.338 --> 00:17:37.601 Like that's what I was telling. 00:17:37.800 --> 00:17:37.981 And. 00:17:39.781 --> 00:17:41.382 so so that got me involved in in 00:17:41.921 --> 00:17:44.003 wordpress and then i did my first word 00:17:44.044 --> 00:17:46.685 camp uh and then i started organizing them 00:17:46.906 --> 00:17:48.666 and doing meetups so that's like kind of 00:17:48.707 --> 00:17:50.669 how i got into it but i was 00:17:50.709 --> 00:17:53.891 really already really into symphony um at 00:17:53.911 --> 00:17:55.573 the time you know it was still symphony 00:17:55.733 --> 00:17:57.915 one but symphony two was coming out which 00:17:57.954 --> 00:17:59.695 is wild like symphony two must be fifteen 00:17:59.715 --> 00:18:02.338 years old actually like something crazy um 00:18:03.199 --> 00:18:04.679 and uh 00:18:05.894 --> 00:18:07.035 But it came out, 00:18:07.116 --> 00:18:08.598 they had all this component system. 00:18:08.677 --> 00:18:09.239 I loved it. 00:18:09.299 --> 00:18:11.402 And I could just see architecturally like 00:18:11.442 --> 00:18:12.503 how this could fit. 00:18:12.963 --> 00:18:13.585 So it was just like, 00:18:14.066 --> 00:18:15.828 and then I would talk to people and 00:18:15.867 --> 00:18:18.492 they're like, oh, you can't do object. 00:18:18.551 --> 00:18:20.234 Like you probably remember those like, 00:18:20.335 --> 00:18:22.498 you know, an advanced WordPress group. 00:18:23.155 --> 00:18:23.274 Ah, 00:18:23.315 --> 00:18:24.876 you can't do object oriented programming 00:18:24.896 --> 00:18:25.396 with WordPress. 00:18:25.515 --> 00:18:26.357 Ah, you can't do this. 00:18:26.377 --> 00:18:28.338 And I was just like, no, you can. 00:18:28.437 --> 00:18:29.858 It's hard. 00:18:30.658 --> 00:18:32.220 It's legitimately hard because you don't 00:18:32.240 --> 00:18:32.919 have the primitives. 00:18:32.980 --> 00:18:34.521 You don't have the components like 00:18:34.781 --> 00:18:36.541 Symphony built and stuff like that. 00:18:36.581 --> 00:18:39.704 So you have to think really harder about 00:18:39.763 --> 00:18:40.664 how to do stuff. 00:18:42.244 --> 00:18:44.366 And so I just started doing that. 00:18:44.406 --> 00:18:45.726 I just started teaching that. 00:18:46.287 --> 00:18:47.667 And then at the same time, 00:18:47.727 --> 00:18:54.232 I quit my job after two years and 00:18:54.271 --> 00:18:55.352 not getting the MBA. 00:18:55.413 --> 00:18:56.592 And I just realized I wanted to be 00:18:56.613 --> 00:18:58.053 on my own and start my own business. 00:18:58.174 --> 00:18:59.514 This is going to tie to the serverless 00:18:59.534 --> 00:19:00.755 stuff because I'm still on that journey. 00:19:00.796 --> 00:19:01.255 But basically, 00:19:01.336 --> 00:19:03.097 I started the journey to just start my 00:19:03.137 --> 00:19:03.758 own business. 00:19:04.518 --> 00:19:05.239 And I was like, okay, 00:19:05.338 --> 00:19:06.639 how am I going to do this? 00:19:06.839 --> 00:19:07.660 And then I was just like, 00:19:07.781 --> 00:19:09.262 I guess I wanted to do. 00:19:09.522 --> 00:19:10.904 So my first thing was to do, 00:19:12.425 --> 00:19:14.768 I really like another special interest of 00:19:14.808 --> 00:19:17.890 mine is like fitness science and stuff. 00:19:17.931 --> 00:19:19.572 So I wanted to do like a health 00:19:19.713 --> 00:19:19.933 app. 00:19:20.614 --> 00:19:21.734 I actually had health. 00:19:21.835 --> 00:19:22.495 It was called health, 00:19:22.515 --> 00:19:24.216 but the old English way of spending it. 00:19:24.337 --> 00:19:27.820 It's like H-E-L-T-H-E, I think. 00:19:28.140 --> 00:19:28.221 Okay. 00:19:29.381 --> 00:19:31.363 And then that kind of bombed. 00:19:31.403 --> 00:19:32.924 I couldn't get any traction on that 00:19:32.944 --> 00:19:34.325 because I'm a noob, basically, 00:19:34.345 --> 00:19:35.264 and I suck at marketing. 00:19:35.385 --> 00:19:37.386 But then I was like, 00:19:37.546 --> 00:19:38.307 I wanted to build. 00:19:38.807 --> 00:19:40.488 Sentry was new then. 00:19:40.528 --> 00:19:41.688 Everybody knows Sentry then, 00:19:41.708 --> 00:19:43.049 but I wanted to build Sentry for 00:19:43.108 --> 00:19:43.690 WordPress. 00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:47.162 Uh, so I, I rebranded it to help. 00:19:47.342 --> 00:19:48.384 And then I was like, okay, 00:19:48.463 --> 00:19:48.823 I'm going to, 00:19:48.844 --> 00:19:50.665 there's still blogs on that in my, 00:19:50.785 --> 00:19:51.906 on my, on my blog. 00:19:52.466 --> 00:19:52.907 So I was like, 00:19:52.988 --> 00:19:54.309 I'm going to start blogging about 00:19:54.648 --> 00:19:57.232 WordPress tech stuff and hopefully that'll 00:19:57.291 --> 00:19:57.771 take off. 00:19:57.811 --> 00:19:59.493 But it, it never really did for, 00:20:00.213 --> 00:20:01.214 for very obvious reasons, 00:20:01.274 --> 00:20:03.297 even century and the WordPress space is 00:20:03.337 --> 00:20:04.898 now, even after all this time, 00:20:04.938 --> 00:20:05.638 it's not that big. 00:20:06.560 --> 00:20:06.780 Um, yeah. 00:20:07.768 --> 00:20:10.210 But because back then people were like, 00:20:10.250 --> 00:20:11.271 is that like New Relic? 00:20:11.971 --> 00:20:13.791 I'm like, it's not quite. 00:20:14.453 --> 00:20:16.313 It's hard to explain to people like error 00:20:16.354 --> 00:20:17.935 reporting and all that stuff. 00:20:20.216 --> 00:20:21.957 But that was like the catalyst. 00:20:22.217 --> 00:20:23.598 The catalyst was always like, 00:20:23.698 --> 00:20:25.860 I want to be self-sufficient on my own 00:20:25.880 --> 00:20:28.002 because all I want to do is write 00:20:28.041 --> 00:20:28.342 code. 00:20:29.022 --> 00:20:31.365 and feel financially safe writing code. 00:20:31.565 --> 00:20:31.984 That's like, 00:20:32.306 --> 00:20:34.787 that's like my North star basically. 00:20:35.167 --> 00:20:37.128 Like my entire career is like, 00:20:37.249 --> 00:20:39.451 I just want to write code and feel 00:20:39.491 --> 00:20:40.972 safe, uh, doing it. 00:20:41.532 --> 00:20:43.674 And so I started writing all that. 00:20:43.753 --> 00:20:45.695 And then I just decided why not write 00:20:45.715 --> 00:20:46.035 a book? 00:20:46.195 --> 00:20:46.455 You know, 00:20:46.495 --> 00:20:48.677 I had this book and sign up sheet. 00:20:48.738 --> 00:20:50.158 Cause I was trying to all the hacks, 00:20:50.259 --> 00:20:51.060 like the, the, 00:20:51.139 --> 00:20:51.240 the 00:20:51.619 --> 00:20:53.240 growth hacks and i was just i had 00:20:53.280 --> 00:20:54.600 the and then at some point if i 00:20:54.640 --> 00:20:56.681 got enough people signed up for the book 00:20:56.761 --> 00:20:58.902 i'd start writing it and i i did 00:20:58.962 --> 00:21:02.762 and i published it and it did shockingly 00:21:02.802 --> 00:21:04.683 well like i think the lifetime sales of 00:21:04.723 --> 00:21:06.384 it is like thirty two thousand dollars 00:21:06.904 --> 00:21:10.063 like for it's not nothing yeah for a 00:21:10.184 --> 00:21:13.784 niche right book on how to do object 00:21:14.365 --> 00:21:16.386 it's not even how to do object-oriented 00:21:16.425 --> 00:21:16.886 programming 00:21:17.005 --> 00:21:19.107 in wordpress it's like it's just 00:21:19.287 --> 00:21:20.808 object-oriented programming like the 00:21:20.848 --> 00:21:23.609 concept taught with like wordpress as 00:21:23.669 --> 00:21:26.370 examples like as opposed to the like you 00:21:26.410 --> 00:21:28.893 know class vehicle car extends vehicle and 00:21:28.933 --> 00:21:30.753 all this stuff that's like really kind of 00:21:30.793 --> 00:21:32.815 like not useful like i would use a 00:21:32.855 --> 00:21:36.236 lot of like wordpress stuff to do to 00:21:36.337 --> 00:21:39.178 to do the examples uh but it's to 00:21:39.239 --> 00:21:40.960 me it's still wild to this day that 00:21:41.020 --> 00:21:41.060 it 00:21:42.165 --> 00:21:43.887 like dead that well. 00:21:44.426 --> 00:21:45.207 Yeah. 00:21:45.288 --> 00:21:45.488 Yeah. 00:21:45.588 --> 00:21:46.388 No, for context, 00:21:46.428 --> 00:21:49.551 like I did for a number of years, 00:21:49.693 --> 00:21:51.915 I was making online tutorials for 00:21:51.954 --> 00:21:52.615 Pluralsight. 00:21:53.255 --> 00:21:57.000 Pluralsight has a library of video courses 00:21:57.020 --> 00:21:57.681 that you can take. 00:21:58.040 --> 00:21:59.121 And a lot of the people, 00:21:59.222 --> 00:22:01.283 they refer to the people that do their 00:22:01.825 --> 00:22:03.025 courses as authors. 00:22:03.285 --> 00:22:05.088 And all of them actually are also like 00:22:05.147 --> 00:22:05.908 written authors. 00:22:06.269 --> 00:22:08.669 And so I've had conversations with some of 00:22:08.690 --> 00:22:10.650 the other Pluralsight authors about who 00:22:10.711 --> 00:22:12.271 have written books and they're like, yeah, 00:22:12.310 --> 00:22:14.692 the money like it's really just marketing. 00:22:14.791 --> 00:22:14.932 Like, 00:22:14.992 --> 00:22:16.613 I don't make anything off of this book, 00:22:16.693 --> 00:22:18.193 even though my name is on a book 00:22:18.213 --> 00:22:20.694 and it's like maybe the Amazon bestseller 00:22:20.713 --> 00:22:23.315 in its category of like some niche, 00:22:23.474 --> 00:22:26.415 like specific computer technical thing. 00:22:26.455 --> 00:22:28.196 But they're not making a ton of money 00:22:28.277 --> 00:22:28.537 on it, 00:22:28.617 --> 00:22:29.896 and especially because it goes through 00:22:29.916 --> 00:22:31.117 like O'Reilly or something. 00:22:31.477 --> 00:22:32.878 So like they're taking their cut. 00:22:33.219 --> 00:22:33.618 But like 00:22:34.138 --> 00:22:34.559 They, 00:22:34.579 --> 00:22:36.840 what it's basically just name recognition. 00:22:36.880 --> 00:22:37.380 Like they can say, 00:22:37.441 --> 00:22:38.982 I have a book and then also you 00:22:39.002 --> 00:22:40.403 can take this class with me here. 00:22:40.602 --> 00:22:41.102 And they're actually, 00:22:41.424 --> 00:22:42.563 they're saying that they're making a lot 00:22:42.604 --> 00:22:44.546 more in royalties from Pearl site stuff, 00:22:44.725 --> 00:22:46.406 uh, than they were from their book. 00:22:46.426 --> 00:22:47.608 And that's why they kept doing it is 00:22:47.627 --> 00:22:49.428 because they, because that's, 00:22:49.729 --> 00:22:51.609 that's where more money was coming in and 00:22:51.730 --> 00:22:53.090 they had a really good sort of revenue 00:22:53.110 --> 00:22:53.672 sharing model. 00:22:54.192 --> 00:22:54.611 Yeah. 00:22:54.631 --> 00:22:55.693 I self published. 00:22:55.973 --> 00:22:57.573 because there was all this self publishing 00:22:57.614 --> 00:22:58.773 at the time, like nature, 00:22:58.894 --> 00:23:01.714 I was using kit, uh, Nathan Berry, Adam, 00:23:01.734 --> 00:23:03.356 what tan had like refactoring to 00:23:03.396 --> 00:23:04.275 collections. 00:23:04.336 --> 00:23:05.857 That was like an awesome book. 00:23:06.857 --> 00:23:07.057 Um, 00:23:07.696 --> 00:23:10.518 like I just went to self publishing or 00:23:10.678 --> 00:23:11.958 I've made more money than a lot of 00:23:11.979 --> 00:23:13.760 people I know that have published on 00:23:13.819 --> 00:23:15.179 Amazon and stuff like, 00:23:15.500 --> 00:23:18.521 like not like a bit, like, you know, 00:23:18.642 --> 00:23:22.143 three, four times more, you know, um, 00:23:23.408 --> 00:23:25.830 and yeah it's i mean it was all 00:23:25.870 --> 00:23:28.153 marketing for it like it was just like 00:23:28.373 --> 00:23:30.014 content marketing all this stuff that 00:23:30.034 --> 00:23:32.676 doesn't work as well anymore uh but it 00:23:32.696 --> 00:23:36.059 was just like it was just you know 00:23:36.119 --> 00:23:40.163 marketing works when you have a place and 00:23:40.183 --> 00:23:43.685 this i owe to like matt cromwell basically 00:23:43.985 --> 00:23:45.767 like uh like matt cromwell 00:23:46.726 --> 00:23:50.630 was like uh the admin of like advanced 00:23:50.671 --> 00:23:53.973 wordpress group and and he found my stuff 00:23:54.033 --> 00:23:55.455 and he started sharing it and then he 00:23:55.475 --> 00:23:57.457 was like no you can public you can 00:23:57.818 --> 00:24:00.300 you can promote yourself here you can you 00:24:00.359 --> 00:24:02.623 used to have a wizard for like whether 00:24:02.643 --> 00:24:03.864 you should post or not and there was 00:24:03.884 --> 00:24:05.725 an actual answer that was like if you're 00:24:05.765 --> 00:24:07.146 carl alexander it's okay basically like 00:24:07.166 --> 00:24:07.446 you're like 00:24:08.447 --> 00:24:10.450 there's like that's how like he was a 00:24:10.530 --> 00:24:14.253 real ally uh at that time and i 00:24:14.293 --> 00:24:15.856 think that's one of my struggles now 00:24:15.915 --> 00:24:18.980 around marketing um is those spaces don't 00:24:19.020 --> 00:24:22.723 really exist like i mean but you know 00:24:22.763 --> 00:24:25.867 people say x you know is is good 00:24:25.926 --> 00:24:28.629 for for that stuff but like i've been 00:24:28.669 --> 00:24:30.090 going back a bit and i just 00:24:30.947 --> 00:24:32.227 There's so much noise. 00:24:34.388 --> 00:24:38.650 It doesn't feel very good to me. 00:24:38.711 --> 00:24:39.971 I know some people have a lot of 00:24:39.991 --> 00:24:40.810 success on it, 00:24:40.850 --> 00:24:43.412 but it doesn't feel like it. 00:24:44.153 --> 00:24:46.552 I really liked feeling like I was part 00:24:46.572 --> 00:24:46.954 of it. 00:24:46.973 --> 00:24:48.493 That's why I try to do a Discord. 00:24:48.513 --> 00:24:49.614 I've been talking to a lot of other 00:24:49.634 --> 00:24:51.375 companies, try to do a Discord, 00:24:51.474 --> 00:24:53.455 build your community on Discord. 00:24:55.168 --> 00:24:57.050 so that you have a place you know 00:24:57.070 --> 00:24:58.591 that people can come chat like that's 00:24:58.611 --> 00:25:01.273 always been my hope for like emir is 00:25:01.293 --> 00:25:03.395 to just have a active Discord where people 00:25:03.415 --> 00:25:05.696 can come chat and talk not just about 00:25:05.756 --> 00:25:07.137 serverless stuff they can talk about 00:25:07.177 --> 00:25:09.040 programming stuff for like anything they 00:25:09.060 --> 00:25:12.422 find cool um and just build that out 00:25:12.462 --> 00:25:15.865 somehow but but that's missing nowadays 00:25:15.905 --> 00:25:19.447 like because to me there was like um 00:25:20.975 --> 00:25:22.436 Amy Hoy is her name. 00:25:22.916 --> 00:25:23.736 She used to have, 00:25:24.277 --> 00:25:25.518 I forget what the course was, 00:25:25.558 --> 00:25:28.398 but basically she would talk about sales 00:25:28.418 --> 00:25:28.958 safari. 00:25:28.999 --> 00:25:30.638 You have to find where your people hang 00:25:30.779 --> 00:25:30.940 out. 00:25:31.480 --> 00:25:32.679 And I just don't know where my people 00:25:32.700 --> 00:25:35.461 hang out anymore because most of us don't 00:25:35.521 --> 00:25:37.142 really want to hang out on the social 00:25:37.182 --> 00:25:38.081 networks anymore. 00:25:38.101 --> 00:25:40.443 We're kind of like post status slack and 00:25:40.463 --> 00:25:41.822 a couple of things, 00:25:41.903 --> 00:25:44.983 but it doesn't have the same stuff that 00:25:45.083 --> 00:25:45.845 back in the day 00:25:47.120 --> 00:25:49.383 I could go on Reddit or... I mean, 00:25:49.423 --> 00:25:50.904 Reddit's still good-ish, 00:25:51.204 --> 00:25:53.385 but I just don't go on the WordPress. 00:25:53.685 --> 00:25:54.245 I'll be honest. 00:25:54.306 --> 00:25:57.467 I don't go on much on Reddit, 00:25:57.548 --> 00:25:58.989 but I think they're still good. 00:25:59.049 --> 00:25:59.829 But it's just... 00:26:00.270 --> 00:26:01.890 There's no more advanced WordPress group. 00:26:01.971 --> 00:26:03.412 I don't want to be on Facebook anyways. 00:26:03.432 --> 00:26:05.052 So it's just... 00:26:05.693 --> 00:26:07.394 So it's difficult, you know, 00:26:07.473 --> 00:26:09.435 but at the time it was great. 00:26:09.494 --> 00:26:10.435 Like, you know, 00:26:10.895 --> 00:26:12.435 it allowed me to achieve something 00:26:13.076 --> 00:26:13.636 significant. 00:26:14.235 --> 00:26:15.896 But it was like what to transition. 00:26:15.996 --> 00:26:17.217 Once that ended, 00:26:17.318 --> 00:26:19.078 that's kind of like the year the book 00:26:19.117 --> 00:26:19.438 came out. 00:26:19.499 --> 00:26:21.138 It's kind of like when I transitioned to 00:26:21.158 --> 00:26:22.220 the serverless stuff, 00:26:23.139 --> 00:26:25.120 the timing was just coincidental. 00:26:25.160 --> 00:26:26.861 But it was just like I was ready 00:26:26.902 --> 00:26:27.861 for the next thing. 00:26:29.502 --> 00:26:31.823 And that ended up being the next thing, 00:26:32.043 --> 00:26:32.263 you know. 00:26:32.384 --> 00:26:32.624 Yeah. 00:26:33.204 --> 00:26:34.144 And then COVID happened, 00:26:34.165 --> 00:26:36.185 which also threw a lot of wrenches and 00:26:36.264 --> 00:26:36.806 everything. 00:26:36.945 --> 00:26:39.127 So it might have been a different 00:26:39.166 --> 00:26:41.387 trajectory if it was not for COVID. 00:26:41.467 --> 00:26:43.749 But that's also a part of the issue, 00:26:43.809 --> 00:26:43.969 too. 00:26:44.009 --> 00:26:46.329 It's hard to do marketing when a lot 00:26:46.369 --> 00:26:48.130 of it was me going to conferences, 00:26:48.191 --> 00:26:49.050 talking to people. 00:26:49.631 --> 00:26:52.393 And that's still a lot of my best 00:26:52.492 --> 00:26:53.072 networking. 00:26:53.113 --> 00:26:56.954 My best growth comes from that. 00:26:56.994 --> 00:26:58.035 I still publish a lot. 00:27:00.136 --> 00:27:01.456 I mean, for the readers, 00:27:01.916 --> 00:27:05.019 for the listeners, like Emir, my business, 00:27:05.039 --> 00:27:07.399 like I've been writing a report every two 00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:08.940 weeks to four, 00:27:09.000 --> 00:27:11.080 between two and four weeks for five years. 00:27:11.861 --> 00:27:14.143 Like I've written ninety four or ninety 00:27:14.183 --> 00:27:15.262 five of them, basically. 00:27:15.302 --> 00:27:16.844 Like it's going to be the five year 00:27:16.884 --> 00:27:18.464 anniversary in February, basically. 00:27:18.524 --> 00:27:20.244 So I've been sharing in public my 00:27:20.284 --> 00:27:21.866 struggles, my this, my that, 00:27:21.925 --> 00:27:23.567 like very honestly, 00:27:23.666 --> 00:27:25.308 like I had an interview. 00:27:25.367 --> 00:27:27.969 It's not out yet with Nadine from LightWP 00:27:28.009 --> 00:27:28.269 Build. 00:27:28.888 --> 00:27:30.109 And he's like, you know, 00:27:30.149 --> 00:27:33.532 like you and Katie key are like very 00:27:33.673 --> 00:27:34.194 down to earth, 00:27:34.233 --> 00:27:36.175 but you're like so much rougher. 00:27:36.254 --> 00:27:38.676 Like I was just like, cause it's hard. 00:27:38.696 --> 00:27:40.479 People should know it's, it's hard. 00:27:40.519 --> 00:27:41.300 Like, I, 00:27:41.379 --> 00:27:43.021 I don't want people to be like, Oh, 00:27:43.080 --> 00:27:46.043 like you were kind of a overnight success 00:27:46.083 --> 00:27:46.463 or stuff. 00:27:46.503 --> 00:27:48.284 I'm like, there was no overnight. 00:27:48.346 --> 00:27:49.567 Like I've been working on this since 00:27:49.587 --> 00:27:51.068 twenty nineteen and I, you know, 00:27:51.088 --> 00:27:53.349 and it's still not, you know, it's still, 00:27:53.409 --> 00:27:54.491 it's still hard, you know? 00:27:54.550 --> 00:27:55.551 And I think people should, 00:27:55.791 --> 00:27:56.492 should know that. 00:27:56.571 --> 00:27:56.653 And, 00:27:57.523 --> 00:27:59.285 and be clear eyed about it. 00:27:59.425 --> 00:28:00.666 I think that's always been really 00:28:00.686 --> 00:28:01.328 important to me. 00:28:03.222 --> 00:28:05.663 like same thing when I did a pressonomics 00:28:05.842 --> 00:28:08.905 conference too on stuff that was like 00:28:08.944 --> 00:28:09.165 that. 00:28:09.224 --> 00:28:11.945 And it was just like talking about success 00:28:12.106 --> 00:28:13.767 and what success means to people. 00:28:14.327 --> 00:28:15.466 And I think you have to be like 00:28:15.527 --> 00:28:16.367 honest, you know? 00:28:18.148 --> 00:28:19.829 Because otherwise like people just see 00:28:19.868 --> 00:28:21.990 what you decide to show them. 00:28:22.830 --> 00:28:24.650 And I can't show a hundred percent and 00:28:24.711 --> 00:28:25.611 that's not the point. 00:28:25.672 --> 00:28:26.492 But the point is like, 00:28:26.531 --> 00:28:29.874 if you don't show the real difficult 00:28:29.973 --> 00:28:30.374 stuff, 00:28:31.419 --> 00:28:33.941 you know, people just think it's easy, 00:28:34.221 --> 00:28:36.821 you know, and it's, it's really not, 00:28:37.021 --> 00:28:40.203 you know, like, it's really not easy to, 00:28:40.322 --> 00:28:40.542 yeah. 00:28:41.143 --> 00:28:41.863 Yeah. 00:28:41.923 --> 00:28:42.082 Yeah. 00:28:42.124 --> 00:28:42.864 I mean, there's so much, 00:28:42.944 --> 00:28:43.864 there's so much surface, 00:28:43.904 --> 00:28:47.845 the social media tends to highlight the, 00:28:48.024 --> 00:28:49.945 the good stuff and creates this sort of 00:28:49.965 --> 00:28:52.706 like almost fake version of, of everyone, 00:28:52.746 --> 00:28:53.986 which is, I think it's, 00:28:54.206 --> 00:28:55.887 it's a reason why I don't, uh, 00:28:56.560 --> 00:28:58.140 spend as much time as i used to 00:28:58.501 --> 00:29:00.621 on on social media yeah i mean it's 00:29:00.642 --> 00:29:03.703 been good like there's a there's a you 00:29:03.742 --> 00:29:07.645 know it's like i've talked about it like 00:29:07.784 --> 00:29:09.544 not like written or anything but i've 00:29:09.585 --> 00:29:11.725 talked a bit about it like informally it's 00:29:11.745 --> 00:29:16.387 just like it sucks that like the right 00:29:16.407 --> 00:29:19.708 thing to do for marketing hurts you so 00:29:19.769 --> 00:29:20.990 much yeah 00:29:22.806 --> 00:29:24.887 And I don't know how to deal with 00:29:24.927 --> 00:29:25.749 that basically. 00:29:26.108 --> 00:29:27.830 I kind of, I'm still avoiding it, 00:29:27.931 --> 00:29:28.290 but it's, 00:29:28.431 --> 00:29:30.473 it's one of the challenges that I find 00:29:31.173 --> 00:29:33.596 with the whole thing is that I know, 00:29:33.715 --> 00:29:33.915 like, 00:29:33.955 --> 00:29:35.577 you don't need to convince me that if 00:29:35.637 --> 00:29:38.760 I was really active on LinkedIn or on, 00:29:39.380 --> 00:29:42.062 on X or blue sky or choose your, 00:29:42.522 --> 00:29:42.723 you know, 00:29:42.743 --> 00:29:44.905 or everything that it would probably be 00:29:44.945 --> 00:29:46.646 good for the business, 00:29:46.887 --> 00:29:47.067 but 00:29:48.167 --> 00:29:49.989 What is the cost that I'm willing to 00:29:50.128 --> 00:29:51.329 bear on this? 00:29:51.509 --> 00:29:54.409 And it's, it's hard, you know, like it's, 00:29:54.790 --> 00:29:55.711 you know, I've, I've, 00:29:56.390 --> 00:30:00.453 I talk a lot about what are you 00:30:00.492 --> 00:30:01.473 willing, like, 00:30:02.560 --> 00:30:04.963 You know, I really want, like, 00:30:05.062 --> 00:30:05.905 if it's not clear, 00:30:06.044 --> 00:30:08.048 I've been doing this for fifteen years on 00:30:08.068 --> 00:30:08.447 my own, 00:30:08.508 --> 00:30:10.330 trying to build a business that is for 00:30:10.370 --> 00:30:11.492 me. 00:30:11.551 --> 00:30:12.833 And I still haven't quite, 00:30:12.914 --> 00:30:14.996 I feel like I'm the closest I've ever 00:30:15.057 --> 00:30:16.940 been, but I still have not succeeded. 00:30:18.201 --> 00:30:20.644 you know i'm willing to take the loss 00:30:21.323 --> 00:30:23.205 you know i like what is the cost 00:30:23.306 --> 00:30:25.127 that you're willing to bear to get that 00:30:25.167 --> 00:30:26.869 success and that was kind of like the 00:30:26.909 --> 00:30:29.071 pressonomics thing was just like what is 00:30:29.232 --> 00:30:30.713 what is the cost you're willing to bear 00:30:31.233 --> 00:30:35.117 are you willing to take all this you 00:30:35.137 --> 00:30:35.338 know 00:30:36.960 --> 00:30:39.820 crap that you have to see and deal 00:30:39.840 --> 00:30:42.121 with on social media to be successful 00:30:42.202 --> 00:30:44.562 obviously you know some people manage 00:30:44.582 --> 00:30:46.523 better than others but i just find that 00:30:46.644 --> 00:30:49.906 it triggers my adhd uh like i scroll 00:30:50.025 --> 00:30:53.027 i just it's distracting you know um 00:30:56.194 --> 00:30:57.455 You just see a lot of stuff you'd 00:30:57.475 --> 00:30:58.495 rather not see. 00:30:59.436 --> 00:31:00.537 It's very hard, right? 00:31:00.656 --> 00:31:03.238 And it's not because I don't like the 00:31:03.498 --> 00:31:04.219 people there. 00:31:04.279 --> 00:31:05.839 There's not good people that I would love 00:31:05.879 --> 00:31:06.700 to interact with, 00:31:06.720 --> 00:31:09.900 but the blast radius of the whole thing 00:31:09.941 --> 00:31:12.262 is huge. 00:31:12.342 --> 00:31:14.704 So it's difficult for me. 00:31:15.763 --> 00:31:18.065 So I write a lot and I publish 00:31:18.105 --> 00:31:18.524 a lot. 00:31:18.785 --> 00:31:20.485 That's why I like newsletters and stuff 00:31:20.505 --> 00:31:23.328 because you get to opt in. 00:31:24.223 --> 00:31:27.186 to to seeing it and you know like 00:31:27.248 --> 00:31:28.889 the reports aren't that popular like i 00:31:28.929 --> 00:31:30.431 started with two hundred fifty people i 00:31:30.451 --> 00:31:32.133 think i'm around around two hundred people 00:31:32.153 --> 00:31:34.015 are falling off but again part of it 00:31:34.056 --> 00:31:36.197 is just i'm writing it for me yeah 00:31:36.238 --> 00:31:37.720 part of the reason too like you should 00:31:37.760 --> 00:31:39.341 do a lot if you do a lot 00:31:39.361 --> 00:31:40.562 of stuff for you maybe you'll be 00:31:40.602 --> 00:31:42.586 successful maybe you won't but at least 00:31:42.846 --> 00:31:44.268 you know i think 00:31:45.854 --> 00:31:47.714 you'll never look at yourself in the 00:31:47.754 --> 00:31:49.796 mirror and be like, oh, like I didn't, 00:31:49.896 --> 00:31:51.017 I wasn't true to myself, 00:31:51.057 --> 00:31:54.038 which is like really critical for me. 00:31:54.238 --> 00:31:55.219 So it's just like, 00:31:55.398 --> 00:31:58.860 but that's a very hard tension right now 00:31:58.900 --> 00:31:59.900 is how to do that. 00:32:01.621 --> 00:32:02.943 Cause I find the cost is high. 00:32:03.604 --> 00:32:04.365 Yeah, for sure. 00:32:04.724 --> 00:32:06.665 Let's talk about Amir. 00:32:07.827 --> 00:32:09.288 We've been dancing around it long enough. 00:32:10.888 --> 00:32:13.429 For anyone who doesn't know and hasn't 00:32:13.450 --> 00:32:15.652 gone to one of your talks, 00:32:15.811 --> 00:32:19.094 explain what serverless is for somebody 00:32:19.134 --> 00:32:20.194 who doesn't know anything about 00:32:20.254 --> 00:32:20.815 serverless. 00:32:22.215 --> 00:32:22.775 Yeah. 00:32:23.297 --> 00:32:24.377 What does it mean? 00:32:26.198 --> 00:32:27.059 What is serverless? 00:32:28.859 --> 00:32:30.620 I could get into the technical weeds. 00:32:30.741 --> 00:32:31.021 I think 00:32:31.847 --> 00:32:34.251 I don't think what's I don't think this 00:32:34.290 --> 00:32:36.013 is like what's changed a lot this year 00:32:36.033 --> 00:32:38.278 is I've just kind of refined a lot. 00:32:38.377 --> 00:32:39.138 I'm thinking a lot. 00:32:39.219 --> 00:32:42.243 I'm branching out into all of PHP. 00:32:42.263 --> 00:32:42.945 That's my plan. 00:32:43.458 --> 00:32:45.261 And I've just been trying to get to 00:32:45.300 --> 00:32:45.880 the root. 00:32:46.502 --> 00:32:48.463 I used to be, again, autistic, 00:32:48.822 --> 00:32:49.763 super technical. 00:32:49.864 --> 00:32:51.326 You love the technical aspect. 00:32:52.126 --> 00:32:52.547 But really, 00:32:53.107 --> 00:32:54.588 what is the point of serverless? 00:32:55.448 --> 00:32:56.210 First, yes, 00:32:56.230 --> 00:32:57.531 there are servers with serverless. 00:32:57.550 --> 00:32:59.071 That is not the point. 00:32:59.111 --> 00:33:02.274 I'll just tackle this right away because I 00:33:02.294 --> 00:33:03.596 think it's important. 00:33:03.636 --> 00:33:07.579 But the point with serverless is that we 00:33:07.638 --> 00:33:08.760 all know about servers. 00:33:08.800 --> 00:33:10.340 We know they exist and stuff like that. 00:33:11.504 --> 00:33:14.505 it's about your sphere of concern, right? 00:33:14.846 --> 00:33:16.765 Like how much do you want to care 00:33:16.886 --> 00:33:17.886 about servers? 00:33:18.485 --> 00:33:22.107 Do you want to be able to SSH 00:33:22.226 --> 00:33:24.028 into it and do all this stuff? 00:33:24.048 --> 00:33:26.907 Do you want to like have to just 00:33:26.947 --> 00:33:27.848 do all this manual work? 00:33:27.867 --> 00:33:29.368 Do you want to know how much RAM 00:33:29.388 --> 00:33:30.829 you need, how many CPUs you need? 00:33:30.928 --> 00:33:32.229 Do you want to know about all these 00:33:32.269 --> 00:33:32.469 things? 00:33:32.489 --> 00:33:33.829 Do you want to care about all these 00:33:33.869 --> 00:33:34.129 things? 00:33:34.230 --> 00:33:36.089 And the answer is like increasingly, 00:33:36.710 --> 00:33:37.790 this is what's changed this year, 00:33:37.810 --> 00:33:39.850 is the answer is no, basically. 00:33:40.558 --> 00:33:42.019 The answer is increasingly no. 00:33:42.458 --> 00:33:47.363 And it's increasingly no across the entire 00:33:47.383 --> 00:33:48.924 spectrum of people, 00:33:49.164 --> 00:33:53.488 not just like the non-technical people who 00:33:53.548 --> 00:33:56.490 obviously like have no interest. 00:33:56.510 --> 00:33:57.390 They never wanted to care about it. 00:33:57.410 --> 00:33:58.912 They never wanted to care about it. 00:33:58.992 --> 00:33:59.652 Exactly. 00:33:59.712 --> 00:34:00.933 They never wanted to care about it in 00:34:00.973 --> 00:34:01.753 the first place. 00:34:02.213 --> 00:34:02.454 Uh, 00:34:02.473 --> 00:34:03.694 they don't know what it means when they 00:34:03.733 --> 00:34:05.274 get to the, like, you know, 00:34:05.315 --> 00:34:07.335 pricing page and they look, okay, 00:34:07.415 --> 00:34:09.675 I have these CPUs here and this and 00:34:09.774 --> 00:34:11.435 worker PHP workers. 00:34:11.455 --> 00:34:12.715 Like, what does this all mean? 00:34:13.096 --> 00:34:14.535 Or like in the case of Pantheon, 00:34:14.576 --> 00:34:16.176 like how many app servers do I get? 00:34:16.236 --> 00:34:17.456 And like all this stuff, 00:34:17.476 --> 00:34:19.337 like they don't want it, 00:34:19.476 --> 00:34:21.818 but now like in my, 00:34:22.078 --> 00:34:24.477 my new talk that like the re re 00:34:24.838 --> 00:34:26.618 reworked talk that I do, like I, 00:34:26.819 --> 00:34:28.858 I talk about the Vercel experience. 00:34:29.889 --> 00:34:31.931 And I gave that talk at CloudFest and 00:34:31.951 --> 00:34:33.232 there was like these young developers in 00:34:33.252 --> 00:34:34.672 the back and they were nodding so hard 00:34:34.692 --> 00:34:37.273 that their head would fall off basically. 00:34:37.634 --> 00:34:39.474 Cause it's the same thing with developers. 00:34:39.514 --> 00:34:42.675 Like developers nowadays don't, 00:34:43.336 --> 00:34:45.137 they don't wanna know about this stuff. 00:34:45.176 --> 00:34:46.957 They've just wanna deploy code. 00:34:47.157 --> 00:34:48.239 Like, you know, 00:34:48.259 --> 00:34:49.638 like what I use in my talk is 00:34:49.678 --> 00:34:52.921 like, you know, deploy scale and sleep. 00:34:55.130 --> 00:34:55.731 That's it. 00:34:55.771 --> 00:34:57.432 Like when you deploy in Vercel, 00:34:57.692 --> 00:34:58.873 the only time you have to worry with 00:34:59.433 --> 00:35:01.233 anything is if AWS is going down, 00:35:01.374 --> 00:35:02.294 basically, right? 00:35:02.694 --> 00:35:04.955 And even Vercel is doing a better job 00:35:05.316 --> 00:35:07.057 at handling that, but it's still like, 00:35:07.196 --> 00:35:08.618 you know, you have your life, 00:35:08.658 --> 00:35:11.138 you have your obviously issues, 00:35:11.178 --> 00:35:13.519 but nobody's going to be super upset at 00:35:13.559 --> 00:35:15.682 you if AWS goes down and you go 00:35:15.722 --> 00:35:17.022 down at the same time because the entire 00:35:17.062 --> 00:35:19.122 internet's on fire anyway. 00:35:19.162 --> 00:35:20.584 You might not even be able to message 00:35:20.624 --> 00:35:22.044 in Slack, like the whole thing. 00:35:22.365 --> 00:35:23.665 Like, it's just like, so... 00:35:24.767 --> 00:35:26.428 If that's your only time that you might 00:35:26.468 --> 00:35:29.191 have a downtime, that is very appealing. 00:35:29.512 --> 00:35:31.252 This is a much better appealing thing than 00:35:31.454 --> 00:35:33.075 being like, oh, 00:35:33.635 --> 00:35:34.955 I was on the front page of Reddit 00:35:35.037 --> 00:35:36.017 and then my site blew up. 00:35:36.077 --> 00:35:37.399 I don't know what's happening. 00:35:37.939 --> 00:35:40.301 It was my lightning in a bottle moment 00:35:40.481 --> 00:35:42.022 and the whole thing. 00:35:43.863 --> 00:35:44.765 So serverless... 00:35:46.064 --> 00:35:48.807 addresses that problem basically and 00:35:48.988 --> 00:35:51.109 that's like that's me giving you the high 00:35:51.149 --> 00:35:53.310 level uh if you like if you want 00:35:53.370 --> 00:35:54.912 i could we could talk about the more 00:35:54.952 --> 00:35:57.694 technical reasons but at the high level 00:35:58.316 --> 00:36:01.057 that's the idea of serverless and that's 00:36:01.077 --> 00:36:04.441 like what's changed a lot this year in 00:36:04.901 --> 00:36:06.722 ways that i that have shocked me is 00:36:06.763 --> 00:36:09.164 just that how fast the transitions happen 00:36:09.225 --> 00:36:09.964 but it's just like 00:36:10.885 --> 00:36:11.225 You know, 00:36:11.687 --> 00:36:13.847 just people just don't want to have to 00:36:14.408 --> 00:36:16.089 deal with that stuff anymore. 00:36:17.310 --> 00:36:20.233 Like I never like I started working on 00:36:20.252 --> 00:36:21.493 it because I didn't want to deal with 00:36:21.533 --> 00:36:21.613 it. 00:36:21.673 --> 00:36:23.356 And I used to joke in my my 00:36:23.635 --> 00:36:24.776 early iterations of the talk, 00:36:24.856 --> 00:36:26.318 I should be like the last person to 00:36:26.358 --> 00:36:28.079 promote this stuff because I know servers. 00:36:28.118 --> 00:36:30.240 I've been assistant men for like at the 00:36:30.260 --> 00:36:31.981 time, twenty years or something, you know, 00:36:32.022 --> 00:36:34.584 like like I know this stuff inside out, 00:36:34.624 --> 00:36:35.245 but I don't. 00:36:36.044 --> 00:36:37.626 I don't want to be on pager duty, 00:36:37.807 --> 00:36:38.667 you know, 00:36:38.847 --> 00:36:40.888 like coming up in Montreal and I rebranded 00:36:40.928 --> 00:36:41.368 the title. 00:36:41.408 --> 00:36:43.310 But it's like how to it's basically that 00:36:43.330 --> 00:36:44.731 it's like how to not be on pager 00:36:44.772 --> 00:36:45.031 duty. 00:36:45.071 --> 00:36:45.231 Like, 00:36:45.392 --> 00:36:46.772 I don't want to be on pager duty 00:36:47.254 --> 00:36:49.274 since I've I've switched to this stuff. 00:36:49.294 --> 00:36:49.434 Like, 00:36:49.455 --> 00:36:51.716 I've never had to worry about anything, 00:36:52.258 --> 00:36:52.618 you know. 00:36:52.798 --> 00:36:55.780 And to me, that is very, very, 00:36:55.859 --> 00:36:56.640 very important. 00:36:58.111 --> 00:36:59.691 It's priceless in a way that you can't 00:36:59.872 --> 00:37:01.774 cost it. 00:37:02.274 --> 00:37:03.334 I talk about that too. 00:37:03.675 --> 00:37:05.176 You have to be intellectually honest about 00:37:05.216 --> 00:37:05.597 this stuff. 00:37:06.798 --> 00:37:07.077 Yes, 00:37:07.158 --> 00:37:09.760 you could go and fix the thing if 00:37:09.780 --> 00:37:11.100 you're comfortable with servers, 00:37:11.140 --> 00:37:12.722 but even if you're not, it's just like, 00:37:12.803 --> 00:37:13.042 okay, 00:37:13.082 --> 00:37:14.263 you're paying five dollars for a 00:37:14.303 --> 00:37:15.484 DigitalOcean droplet. 00:37:16.379 --> 00:37:17.381 But, you know, 00:37:17.700 --> 00:37:20.222 how much is it worth it to, like, 00:37:20.542 --> 00:37:21.843 deal with, like, oh, 00:37:21.863 --> 00:37:23.725 the SSL certificate broke at some point. 00:37:23.905 --> 00:37:25.946 Or, like, I have to migrate, like, 00:37:26.006 --> 00:37:26.287 you know, 00:37:26.327 --> 00:37:28.169 your Linux versions out of date or this 00:37:28.229 --> 00:37:29.269 or that, you know. 00:37:29.990 --> 00:37:31.430 I had to go down a rabbit hole 00:37:31.591 --> 00:37:33.091 on my DigitalOcean droplet, 00:37:33.231 --> 00:37:36.294 which my site's still on, because... 00:37:36.995 --> 00:37:39.716 I installed a plugin that required PHP 00:37:40.117 --> 00:37:41.437 eight point something, right? 00:37:41.517 --> 00:37:43.258 And my server was still on seven point 00:37:43.298 --> 00:37:45.240 four because I never touch it. 00:37:46.140 --> 00:37:48.162 And so then I had to like do 00:37:48.222 --> 00:37:49.602 all those things like there's all those 00:37:49.622 --> 00:37:50.662 things that I don't want to think about, 00:37:50.702 --> 00:37:51.664 like go into the server, 00:37:51.803 --> 00:37:52.785 SSH into the server, 00:37:52.865 --> 00:37:55.066 do do an upgrade on the operating system. 00:37:55.126 --> 00:37:56.406 Then that broke a whole bunch of other 00:37:56.426 --> 00:37:57.227 shit on my website. 00:37:57.267 --> 00:37:59.528 And like there's a whole like rabbit hole 00:37:59.589 --> 00:38:01.550 involved in things that and at the end 00:38:01.589 --> 00:38:02.691 of it, I was like, you know, 00:38:03.390 --> 00:38:06.095 had i already had in like migrated this 00:38:06.155 --> 00:38:09.479 site to pantheon or something else yeah i 00:38:09.499 --> 00:38:10.760 wouldn't have to worry about any of this 00:38:10.780 --> 00:38:12.222 like just like click a button and then 00:38:12.263 --> 00:38:13.385 it would have the new version and it 00:38:13.405 --> 00:38:16.129 would be done yeah so hosting solves some 00:38:16.149 --> 00:38:18.071 of these problems but it doesn't solve the 00:38:18.352 --> 00:38:20.093 the scaling one which is like 00:38:20.714 --> 00:38:22.756 The scaling one is still a very big 00:38:22.776 --> 00:38:23.176 problem. 00:38:24.017 --> 00:38:25.057 And again, 00:38:25.377 --> 00:38:29.301 I'm talking to a lot of executives, 00:38:29.540 --> 00:38:31.363 not just developers and stuff like that. 00:38:31.403 --> 00:38:33.184 That one is a huge problem still. 00:38:35.493 --> 00:38:36.653 you know, 00:38:36.693 --> 00:38:39.435 there was like early on with Ymir, 00:38:39.575 --> 00:38:41.497 like there was a, 00:38:41.517 --> 00:38:42.477 they don't exist anymore, 00:38:42.517 --> 00:38:44.180 but I was just like, there was like, 00:38:44.379 --> 00:38:47.682 there was a customer that was on Pantheon 00:38:47.883 --> 00:38:49.223 and Matt Chaney was like, 00:38:49.283 --> 00:38:50.343 get them off of me. 00:38:50.444 --> 00:38:51.345 Like, I was just like, 00:38:51.365 --> 00:38:52.685 cause they were just this crazy 00:38:52.725 --> 00:38:53.566 WooCommerce site. 00:38:53.647 --> 00:38:54.207 And it was just like, 00:38:54.227 --> 00:38:55.669 they were already on the biggest custom 00:38:55.709 --> 00:38:57.470 thing that you could do. 00:38:57.830 --> 00:38:59.472 And you hear these stories all the time, 00:38:59.531 --> 00:38:59.731 right? 00:38:59.772 --> 00:39:02.073 Like my favorite one from WordCamp Canada 00:39:02.153 --> 00:39:02.454 is like, 00:39:03.635 --> 00:39:07.419 this guy who sells, I shit you not, 00:39:08.059 --> 00:39:10.060 a hundred thousand dollars a month of 00:39:10.160 --> 00:39:10.620 worms. 00:39:11.981 --> 00:39:12.923 I think I remember this story. 00:39:13.283 --> 00:39:13.883 Yeah. 00:39:14.064 --> 00:39:15.444 And, and it's like, 00:39:15.926 --> 00:39:17.327 and he's just a farmer. 00:39:17.546 --> 00:39:19.008 Like he's just like, 00:39:19.548 --> 00:39:20.890 like he just wants to sell his work. 00:39:20.910 --> 00:39:23.111 He doesn't understand why. 00:39:23.231 --> 00:39:24.272 And he shouldn't, you know, 00:39:24.292 --> 00:39:27.075 but that's why kind of Shopify and Wix 00:39:27.135 --> 00:39:28.756 and Squarespace kind of win in that 00:39:28.796 --> 00:39:31.278 respect because they absorb all of that 00:39:31.338 --> 00:39:31.979 scaling issue. 00:39:32.519 --> 00:39:32.979 Yeah. 00:39:33.079 --> 00:39:35.100 I mean, so when I was at CloudFest, 00:39:35.160 --> 00:39:38.301 I talked with some executives and they 00:39:38.361 --> 00:39:41.501 call it like the SaaSification of hosting, 00:39:41.542 --> 00:39:43.622 which is like kind of a weird term 00:39:43.903 --> 00:39:46.062 to use because most people think of SaaS 00:39:46.082 --> 00:39:47.283 as like the pay per month thing. 00:39:47.684 --> 00:39:49.024 But what they mean is like when you 00:39:49.064 --> 00:39:50.084 pay for a SaaS, 00:39:51.104 --> 00:39:53.086 you never worry if the SaaS is going 00:39:53.106 --> 00:39:54.046 to go down or not. 00:39:54.714 --> 00:39:54.934 right? 00:39:54.973 --> 00:39:58.897 Like you pay and it just absorbs the 00:39:58.957 --> 00:39:59.818 traffic, right? 00:40:00.358 --> 00:40:01.539 And that's it, right? 00:40:01.579 --> 00:40:02.359 Like if you go, 00:40:02.479 --> 00:40:03.559 if you make it on the front page 00:40:03.580 --> 00:40:04.760 of Reddit, like, you know, 00:40:04.801 --> 00:40:07.303 the platform's going to handle it and the 00:40:07.343 --> 00:40:08.164 whole thing, right? 00:40:08.223 --> 00:40:10.325 So they meant it more in that scenario, 00:40:10.385 --> 00:40:10.606 right? 00:40:11.446 --> 00:40:13.948 But that's kind of like where the customer 00:40:14.008 --> 00:40:16.109 expectations are going, right? 00:40:16.149 --> 00:40:17.571 Like they just don't want... 00:40:17.950 --> 00:40:19.972 So that's why like the serverless stuff is 00:40:19.992 --> 00:40:22.153 just like a technological solution to 00:40:22.473 --> 00:40:23.075 offering... 00:40:24.176 --> 00:40:28.039 that peace of mind that people want. 00:40:28.399 --> 00:40:30.780 And you bring up good points too, 00:40:30.821 --> 00:40:32.281 which is like one of the things that 00:40:32.481 --> 00:40:34.423 I'm focusing on versus a lot of the, 00:40:34.684 --> 00:40:36.444 like there's breath and there's Laravel 00:40:36.484 --> 00:40:36.885 vapor. 00:40:36.944 --> 00:40:38.626 Although like that product is kind of 00:40:38.685 --> 00:40:39.046 dying. 00:40:39.187 --> 00:40:40.968 Like Taylor's really focused on Laravel 00:40:41.008 --> 00:40:41.287 cloud, 00:40:41.829 --> 00:40:46.352 but I support PHP seven point two to 00:40:46.711 --> 00:40:46.872 one. 00:40:47.272 --> 00:40:48.733 I'm gonna start working on eight point 00:40:48.752 --> 00:40:50.013 five right now, but it's like, 00:40:50.173 --> 00:40:51.155 I don't do eight point five yet, 00:40:51.214 --> 00:40:51.935 but basically, 00:40:53.743 --> 00:40:55.084 And it's funny because I did a lunch 00:40:55.106 --> 00:40:56.606 and learn with AWS and somebody asked me 00:40:56.626 --> 00:40:58.468 if I could support five point six, 00:40:58.649 --> 00:40:59.209 you know, like, 00:40:59.309 --> 00:41:00.952 but there's something about also having 00:41:00.972 --> 00:41:03.613 kind of like safe environment where you 00:41:03.633 --> 00:41:05.095 can just run an old piece of code 00:41:05.115 --> 00:41:07.358 indefinitely, basically. 00:41:07.437 --> 00:41:08.198 And that's again, 00:41:08.238 --> 00:41:10.240 that's the kind of promise for like the 00:41:10.901 --> 00:41:12.542 techie people is again. 00:41:13.184 --> 00:41:14.745 Deploy scale sleep, like, 00:41:14.765 --> 00:41:17.589 you just it's deployed if it works when 00:41:17.609 --> 00:41:19.432 you deployed it, it will keep working. 00:41:20.214 --> 00:41:21.736 Indefinitely, you know, like, 00:41:22.196 --> 00:41:24.319 that's kind of like the promise of the 00:41:24.359 --> 00:41:24.660 whole. 00:41:25.120 --> 00:41:27.464 Technology is to do that obviously there's 00:41:27.484 --> 00:41:29.506 like challenges to to the whole thing, 00:41:29.546 --> 00:41:29.707 but. 00:41:30.834 --> 00:41:31.954 because nothing's free, 00:41:32.035 --> 00:41:33.475 like everything has trade-offs, 00:41:33.515 --> 00:41:35.296 but that's kind of like the idea. 00:41:35.316 --> 00:41:36.296 It's like, oh, like, 00:41:36.736 --> 00:41:38.017 or if you need to upgrade, well, 00:41:38.057 --> 00:41:38.736 it's like simple, 00:41:38.776 --> 00:41:40.198 like any hosting company. 00:41:40.238 --> 00:41:41.338 Okay, I need to bump it up. 00:41:41.377 --> 00:41:43.079 But I think what's getting more 00:41:43.118 --> 00:41:43.559 challenges, 00:41:43.618 --> 00:41:45.260 if you want to maintain an old code 00:41:45.280 --> 00:41:47.220 base and keep it safe, you know, 00:41:47.240 --> 00:41:48.881 there's like the security aspect of the 00:41:48.921 --> 00:41:50.001 platform too, which is like, 00:41:50.642 --> 00:41:52.704 a lot more secure than something you would 00:41:52.863 --> 00:41:55.205 have with like traditional like server 00:41:55.265 --> 00:41:55.606 hosting. 00:41:55.646 --> 00:41:57.807 So if you wanted to keep a seven 00:41:57.847 --> 00:41:59.548 point two site or a five point six 00:41:59.609 --> 00:42:00.510 site up, 00:42:00.609 --> 00:42:03.231 like there's a lot of security issues that 00:42:03.452 --> 00:42:04.372 you have to mitigate. 00:42:04.392 --> 00:42:05.934 This makes it a lot easier to do 00:42:06.033 --> 00:42:08.415 to like take out a whole category of 00:42:08.435 --> 00:42:09.057 them as well. 00:42:09.196 --> 00:42:09.637 Yeah. 00:42:09.656 --> 00:42:11.879 So it's just it's just that's the idea 00:42:11.899 --> 00:42:13.760 of serverless like at the high level, 00:42:13.821 --> 00:42:16.283 like what the product does is just like 00:42:17.022 --> 00:42:17.803 it lets you connect. 00:42:18.064 --> 00:42:19.444 It's kind of like spin up WP. 00:42:19.464 --> 00:42:20.905 You connect your AWS account. 00:42:20.946 --> 00:42:21.926 Like I'll manage it. 00:42:21.946 --> 00:42:23.088 You can deploy to it. 00:42:23.948 --> 00:42:26.649 Now, basically I have an agreement with, 00:42:26.950 --> 00:42:28.852 uh, built fast, which is like a, 00:42:28.892 --> 00:42:29.972 like a partnership with them, 00:42:30.013 --> 00:42:32.434 which is like, they, um, 00:42:33.550 --> 00:42:35.372 they're going to build hosting around 00:42:35.412 --> 00:42:35.733 this. 00:42:36.914 --> 00:42:39.117 So, cause I never wanted to do hosting. 00:42:40.397 --> 00:42:41.298 So per se. 00:42:41.318 --> 00:42:42.521 So it was just like, 00:42:43.001 --> 00:42:45.323 so it was great that I found business 00:42:45.343 --> 00:42:47.026 partners that wanted to bring that and 00:42:47.066 --> 00:42:49.970 like resell it to other hosting companies. 00:42:50.010 --> 00:42:51.290 Like we have a bunch of, 00:42:51.932 --> 00:42:53.573 people that are like companies that are 00:42:53.593 --> 00:42:55.352 waiting to to get their hands on it 00:42:56.272 --> 00:42:59.814 um and but that's like the idea is 00:42:59.854 --> 00:43:03.316 that safety that like peace of mind and 00:43:03.336 --> 00:43:05.696 that scalability because people are just 00:43:06.196 --> 00:43:08.477 not down they don't want to show up 00:43:08.517 --> 00:43:10.738 on a pricing page and hear about ram 00:43:10.778 --> 00:43:13.298 php workers cpus and stuff like that they 00:43:13.339 --> 00:43:14.959 just wanted to and even like the 00:43:15.019 --> 00:43:16.600 woocommerce stuff is not even 00:43:18.223 --> 00:43:20.767 useful, like, sorry, 00:43:20.787 --> 00:43:21.647 I'm going to a little rant, 00:43:21.707 --> 00:43:22.910 but it's just a lot of, 00:43:23.089 --> 00:43:24.310 a lot of these pricing pages, 00:43:24.330 --> 00:43:25.012 they're like, okay, 00:43:25.031 --> 00:43:27.115 we can handle like one, you know, 00:43:27.434 --> 00:43:29.517 let's say X amount of checkouts per hour 00:43:29.537 --> 00:43:30.118 or something like that. 00:43:30.678 --> 00:43:32.560 But like, 00:43:32.620 --> 00:43:34.002 what if those checkouts are in the next 00:43:34.042 --> 00:43:34.644 five minutes? 00:43:35.892 --> 00:43:36.131 Right? 00:43:36.231 --> 00:43:39.236 Like, you're not, there's no safe, like, 00:43:39.276 --> 00:43:41.598 it's just, it's very opaque, you know, 00:43:41.700 --> 00:43:43.182 and people are just, like, 00:43:43.983 --> 00:43:44.823 not down with that. 00:43:44.863 --> 00:43:46.385 That's why, like, people are just, okay, 00:43:46.446 --> 00:43:47.767 well, why am I dealing with this? 00:43:47.827 --> 00:43:50.191 I'll just go pay Shopify, you know? 00:43:50.330 --> 00:43:53.312 And then I'll handle all the traffic, 00:43:53.513 --> 00:43:55.013 you know, that I can, you know, 00:43:55.053 --> 00:43:56.354 I won't have to worry about it. 00:43:56.575 --> 00:44:00.077 So like offer like it's a real threat 00:44:00.196 --> 00:44:01.397 because it's, you know, 00:44:01.497 --> 00:44:02.879 there's other vectors as well, 00:44:02.919 --> 00:44:05.680 like lovable and like just being able to 00:44:05.720 --> 00:44:07.501 build a site and deploy it and just 00:44:07.522 --> 00:44:07.682 like. 00:44:08.147 --> 00:44:10.629 cool, it just stays there and it'll scale, 00:44:10.709 --> 00:44:11.550 handle all of that, 00:44:11.789 --> 00:44:13.290 how to have this kind of experience. 00:44:13.671 --> 00:44:16.153 So there's a lot of attacks on different 00:44:16.294 --> 00:44:17.155 vectors around it. 00:44:17.194 --> 00:44:18.975 But at the end of the day, 00:44:19.055 --> 00:44:20.678 people just don't want to... 00:44:20.718 --> 00:44:21.738 We're at a point now, 00:44:21.818 --> 00:44:22.798 I think a critical point, 00:44:22.818 --> 00:44:25.120 where the idea of a server is just 00:44:25.160 --> 00:44:26.642 not something people want to read about in 00:44:26.702 --> 00:44:28.104 a pricing page at all. 00:44:28.164 --> 00:44:28.944 Yeah. 00:44:29.004 --> 00:44:29.905 Yeah. 00:44:30.004 --> 00:44:30.285 Like... 00:44:31.164 --> 00:44:33.066 Unless you're an enterprise client or 00:44:33.106 --> 00:44:34.466 something like that. 00:44:34.647 --> 00:44:37.269 But for most of what WordPress sells, 00:44:39.272 --> 00:44:42.774 they're not the people that want to hear 00:44:42.794 --> 00:44:43.655 about that. 00:44:44.457 --> 00:44:47.140 They want a site and they want to 00:44:47.180 --> 00:44:49.262 pay X amount a month for their site 00:44:49.522 --> 00:44:51.363 and understand where the costs are going 00:44:51.383 --> 00:44:51.803 to come from. 00:44:53.140 --> 00:44:55.200 know that it'll stay up if something crazy 00:44:55.240 --> 00:44:57.321 happens and you go viral or or all 00:44:57.341 --> 00:45:00.722 that stuff yeah yeah for sure um well 00:45:00.742 --> 00:45:02.303 thank you so much uh carl for being 00:45:02.443 --> 00:45:05.363 on uh we could talk forever uh yeah 00:45:05.383 --> 00:45:09.044 i know we actually have yeah um i 00:45:09.064 --> 00:45:11.064 was uh happy to finally get a chance 00:45:11.084 --> 00:45:13.365 to hang out in canada um yes last 00:45:13.405 --> 00:45:16.004 year um but for everyone else who's coming 00:45:16.024 --> 00:45:19.006 across this uh either audio or video 00:45:19.785 --> 00:45:22.207 Where can they find you online and where 00:45:22.227 --> 00:45:24.149 can they learn more about Amir or what 00:45:24.169 --> 00:45:25.490 you're doing or where you might be 00:45:25.510 --> 00:45:25.809 speaking? 00:45:26.309 --> 00:45:28.151 Yeah, I mean, 00:45:28.912 --> 00:45:32.774 I am mostly active on LinkedIn a bit, 00:45:32.854 --> 00:45:36.316 but carlalexander.ca is where I write. 00:45:36.497 --> 00:45:38.057 I mostly write my year in review. 00:45:38.198 --> 00:45:40.499 My current one's in progress right now. 00:45:42.059 --> 00:45:45.781 And then emirapp.com is the website for 00:45:45.821 --> 00:45:46.082 that. 00:45:46.162 --> 00:45:47.263 And then if you, 00:45:47.704 --> 00:45:50.604 there's like slash reports, slash public, 00:45:50.664 --> 00:45:53.126 like I have a public dashboard and stuff 00:45:53.167 --> 00:45:55.088 to see how the business is going and 00:45:55.127 --> 00:45:55.548 all of that. 00:45:55.568 --> 00:45:57.249 That's awesome. 00:45:57.309 --> 00:45:57.550 Yeah, 00:45:57.649 --> 00:45:59.410 I really love the transparency of that 00:45:59.450 --> 00:45:59.651 too. 00:46:00.611 --> 00:46:01.512 Yeah, I try. 00:46:03.352 --> 00:46:04.693 Well, thanks a lot for having me on, 00:46:04.734 --> 00:46:05.173 Chris. 00:46:05.254 --> 00:46:06.254 Yeah, thank you again. 00:46:06.635 --> 00:46:08.095 And for everyone on the internet, 00:46:08.115 --> 00:46:09.397 we'll see you next time.