WEBVTT 00:00:00.610 --> 00:00:02.571 What would you do if someone handed you 00:00:02.591 --> 00:00:05.053 an internship based on a skill that you 00:00:05.233 --> 00:00:06.374 didn't actually have yet? 00:00:07.216 --> 00:00:07.597 Fuck. 00:00:07.698 --> 00:00:09.899 If you're Fonz Van Damme, you panic, 00:00:10.654 --> 00:00:12.335 buy an actual physical book, 00:00:12.895 --> 00:00:14.795 speed run Drupal in three months, 00:00:15.276 --> 00:00:17.977 and spend the next fifteen years turning 00:00:18.017 --> 00:00:19.917 that energy into building a better Drupal 00:00:19.997 --> 00:00:21.818 ecosystem. 00:00:21.838 --> 00:00:24.539 Fonz is a long-term Drupal community 00:00:24.579 --> 00:00:25.659 member and contributor, 00:00:26.079 --> 00:00:27.840 and the founder of Webhaven, 00:00:27.860 --> 00:00:29.801 which is basically the culmination of 00:00:29.841 --> 00:00:31.161 everything he's learned across a 00:00:31.221 --> 00:00:32.882 decade-plus of agency life, 00:00:33.302 --> 00:00:35.683 distilled into a starter kit that gets you 00:00:35.723 --> 00:00:38.064 from zero to site launch in the least 00:00:38.084 --> 00:00:38.684 amount of headache. 00:00:40.013 --> 00:00:40.673 In this episode, 00:00:40.693 --> 00:00:42.054 we talk about what it looks like to 00:00:42.134 --> 00:00:44.295 build something alone in twenty twenty six 00:00:44.796 --> 00:00:46.597 and specifically how A.I. 00:00:46.937 --> 00:00:48.498 played a role in making Webhaven a 00:00:48.538 --> 00:00:49.078 reality. 00:00:49.939 --> 00:00:51.520 I appreciated his take on this because 00:00:51.560 --> 00:00:53.541 Fonz had to figure out early how to 00:00:53.561 --> 00:00:56.082 make LLM stop flattering him and start 00:00:56.122 --> 00:00:57.763 being ruthlessly honest. 00:00:59.064 --> 00:01:00.885 We also talk about the moment Drupal is 00:01:00.925 --> 00:01:03.367 having right now and why Fonz is hopeful 00:01:03.787 --> 00:01:05.608 that now is the perfect time for a 00:01:05.668 --> 00:01:06.328 resurgence. 00:01:06.969 --> 00:01:09.250 Without further ado, Fonz Van Damme. 00:01:28.823 --> 00:01:32.004 Welcome, Fonz, to Community & Code. 00:01:32.825 --> 00:01:34.567 Tell us about yourself and what you've 00:01:34.586 --> 00:01:35.147 been working on. 00:01:36.608 --> 00:01:37.909 Hello, thanks for having me. 00:01:38.710 --> 00:01:39.710 My name is Fonz, 00:01:39.810 --> 00:01:42.231 and I've been a Drupal enthusiast for 00:01:42.571 --> 00:01:43.952 around fifteen years. 00:01:44.954 --> 00:01:48.396 I've been working on and with Drupal for 00:01:48.416 --> 00:01:50.137 all those years, and at the moment, 00:01:50.336 --> 00:01:53.678 I'm working on a project to speed up 00:01:53.820 --> 00:01:54.679 Drupal development, 00:01:54.739 --> 00:01:55.861 and it's called WebHaven. 00:01:58.588 --> 00:02:01.110 So, fifteen years, 00:02:01.191 --> 00:02:02.872 what version of Drupal was that? 00:02:04.314 --> 00:02:06.716 I started when Drupal six was still a 00:02:06.735 --> 00:02:06.996 thing. 00:02:10.378 --> 00:02:12.701 I know some ex-colleagues of mine and 00:02:12.720 --> 00:02:15.923 people that were in when Drupal five was 00:02:15.942 --> 00:02:19.206 still a thing, but six is really old. 00:02:20.682 --> 00:02:21.723 Yeah, well, I mean, 00:02:21.844 --> 00:02:23.244 I was thinking back because I know that 00:02:24.045 --> 00:02:27.287 there's the kind of running gag of Drupal 00:02:27.328 --> 00:02:28.408 seven forever, right? 00:02:29.630 --> 00:02:34.254 And that's not that far off from about 00:02:34.313 --> 00:02:35.015 fifteen years. 00:02:35.075 --> 00:02:37.796 So I would have guessed about Drupal six. 00:02:37.876 --> 00:02:38.096 Yeah. 00:02:39.558 --> 00:02:40.879 What drew you to Drupal? 00:02:44.941 --> 00:02:47.802 So Drupal was made by a Belgian that 00:02:47.862 --> 00:02:48.563 is both that. 00:02:48.783 --> 00:02:50.224 So I heard about it back in the 00:02:50.263 --> 00:02:52.125 days when I was still in school and 00:02:52.165 --> 00:02:55.626 I had an assignment on Drupal and then 00:02:56.186 --> 00:02:58.207 I had the opportunity to do an internship 00:02:59.129 --> 00:03:01.590 and they were looking for someone who knew 00:03:01.609 --> 00:03:03.912 a bit of Drupal and I didn't know 00:03:03.951 --> 00:03:05.272 anything about Drupal yet. 00:03:05.371 --> 00:03:08.013 But anyway, I applied for the internship. 00:03:08.805 --> 00:03:09.947 And then all of a sudden they said, 00:03:10.007 --> 00:03:10.888 okay, you can do it. 00:03:11.007 --> 00:03:13.349 And then I panicked because I had only 00:03:13.450 --> 00:03:16.052 three months until the internship started. 00:03:16.733 --> 00:03:19.115 And then I started to learn Drupal like 00:03:19.135 --> 00:03:19.936 a madman. 00:03:21.938 --> 00:03:24.260 But there wasn't a lot of stuff out 00:03:24.281 --> 00:03:24.521 there. 00:03:24.561 --> 00:03:26.903 You still had to learn it by buying 00:03:26.944 --> 00:03:27.304 a book. 00:03:28.045 --> 00:03:29.665 It's hard to imagine now, 00:03:29.805 --> 00:03:31.989 but that's how I rolled into it. 00:03:36.038 --> 00:03:38.159 If you need to learn Drupal now, 00:03:38.219 --> 00:03:39.420 I think you ask ChatGPT. 00:03:42.021 --> 00:03:43.203 Yes, I think so too. 00:03:44.003 --> 00:03:45.104 And also, 00:03:45.844 --> 00:03:49.586 you have a lot of video content on 00:03:49.606 --> 00:03:50.508 Drupal now. 00:03:51.669 --> 00:03:52.729 Back in the days, 00:03:54.330 --> 00:03:55.831 Lullabot was already a thing, 00:03:56.271 --> 00:03:59.633 but it was really hard to get into 00:03:59.693 --> 00:03:59.854 it. 00:04:00.194 --> 00:04:00.414 Yeah. 00:04:01.575 --> 00:04:01.756 Yeah. 00:04:04.187 --> 00:04:05.867 Go ahead. 00:04:05.927 --> 00:04:08.591 And yeah, uh, I was, 00:04:09.110 --> 00:04:11.832 I fell in love with the possibilities that 00:04:11.933 --> 00:04:13.935 Drupal gave me the power. 00:04:13.974 --> 00:04:15.956 It's really a powerful tool. 00:04:16.837 --> 00:04:18.818 And once you are, you master it, 00:04:20.039 --> 00:04:22.862 your imagination becomes the limits, 00:04:23.022 --> 00:04:23.362 I think. 00:04:23.502 --> 00:04:26.586 And yeah, still using it daily. 00:04:26.605 --> 00:04:27.266 So, yeah. 00:04:29.483 --> 00:04:29.763 What? 00:04:30.965 --> 00:04:34.147 Talk about your sort of intro to just 00:04:34.268 --> 00:04:35.429 technology in general, 00:04:35.468 --> 00:04:37.151 like you were you're going to school, 00:04:37.290 --> 00:04:39.272 would you go to school for computer 00:04:39.293 --> 00:04:40.974 science or some some degree? 00:04:42.233 --> 00:04:44.975 Yeah, but when I was a young kid, 00:04:45.056 --> 00:04:46.676 I didn't like school that much. 00:04:47.198 --> 00:04:49.599 But my dad is a doctor and he 00:04:49.639 --> 00:04:51.681 was always very computer minded. 00:04:51.981 --> 00:04:53.743 And that's a bit of a weird mix 00:04:53.804 --> 00:04:54.824 for a doctor. 00:04:55.365 --> 00:04:58.829 So he also liked Mac. 00:04:58.908 --> 00:05:01.830 So we had one of those first Macintosh 00:05:01.850 --> 00:05:02.752 classics at home. 00:05:04.364 --> 00:05:05.485 And I have a picture of it. 00:05:05.544 --> 00:05:06.846 I can send it to you after the 00:05:06.866 --> 00:05:07.165 show. 00:05:07.645 --> 00:05:09.807 And it was a portable Mac. 00:05:10.008 --> 00:05:11.609 So my dad took it when we went 00:05:11.649 --> 00:05:12.508 on a vacation. 00:05:13.110 --> 00:05:15.790 And I think that's where it started. 00:05:16.692 --> 00:05:18.913 And then when I was around twelve years 00:05:19.073 --> 00:05:19.252 old, 00:05:20.350 --> 00:05:22.512 I played video games and we had a 00:05:22.551 --> 00:05:23.012 clan, 00:05:23.051 --> 00:05:24.891 we were on clan base and we started 00:05:24.931 --> 00:05:29.233 to make websites for our clan, PHP, 00:05:29.532 --> 00:05:31.593 Dreamweaver, even Flash. 00:05:32.354 --> 00:05:34.555 And I think that that's where it really 00:05:34.615 --> 00:05:35.294 started. 00:05:36.455 --> 00:05:39.496 I made my first scripts, a guest book, 00:05:39.575 --> 00:05:42.417 how fast your page loaded and stuff like 00:05:42.437 --> 00:05:42.676 that. 00:05:44.877 --> 00:05:47.677 Yeah, to me, it always was amazing to, 00:05:48.057 --> 00:05:50.338 we put together our own computers back in 00:05:50.379 --> 00:05:53.180 the days and buy components online or in 00:05:53.240 --> 00:05:53.680 shops. 00:05:54.459 --> 00:05:56.661 And we made our own website for the 00:05:56.701 --> 00:06:01.021 clan and the, the cheerless possibilities. 00:06:02.781 --> 00:06:04.843 Uh, I, I haven't felt that with, 00:06:04.923 --> 00:06:05.923 with anything else, 00:06:06.023 --> 00:06:07.564 not even with building real stuff. 00:06:07.584 --> 00:06:07.783 Uh, 00:06:11.096 --> 00:06:11.235 Now, 00:06:11.295 --> 00:06:14.358 I know you've mentioned in other 00:06:15.137 --> 00:06:17.160 interviews and podcasts and things that 00:06:17.180 --> 00:06:20.862 you still poke around at other CMSs just 00:06:20.882 --> 00:06:22.463 to make sure that Drupal is still the 00:06:22.663 --> 00:06:23.343 right thing. 00:06:23.822 --> 00:06:24.744 Yeah. 00:06:24.803 --> 00:06:27.425 Talk about that process, just what you do, 00:06:27.464 --> 00:06:28.105 how you do that, 00:06:28.146 --> 00:06:30.947 and what you have discovered by playing 00:06:30.966 --> 00:06:32.507 with other stuff. 00:06:32.708 --> 00:06:33.629 Yeah. 00:06:35.213 --> 00:06:37.995 I've always had to fear that I've invested 00:06:38.055 --> 00:06:40.355 so much time into Drupal that I was 00:06:40.574 --> 00:06:43.016 a bit of a locked in because of 00:06:43.055 --> 00:06:45.596 that and that it would be hard to 00:06:45.656 --> 00:06:47.375 switch to something else or that I would 00:06:47.797 --> 00:06:50.516 stay with Drupal because of that. 00:06:51.036 --> 00:06:53.757 So I've always been interested in other 00:06:53.817 --> 00:06:56.617 technologies and when there's something 00:06:56.677 --> 00:06:59.439 new, I just set it up locally. 00:07:00.410 --> 00:07:02.192 And then I start to dig around in 00:07:02.232 --> 00:07:03.391 it, see how it works. 00:07:03.593 --> 00:07:08.096 And it's also good because I see what 00:07:08.136 --> 00:07:09.437 other projects are doing. 00:07:11.358 --> 00:07:14.321 A lot of projects are better and some 00:07:14.360 --> 00:07:16.583 stuff and worse and other stuff. 00:07:16.663 --> 00:07:18.464 And then I try to take that back 00:07:18.485 --> 00:07:19.045 to Drupal. 00:07:20.874 --> 00:07:23.175 I don't want to be the guy that 00:07:23.196 --> 00:07:24.716 says that Drupal is perfect for 00:07:24.956 --> 00:07:25.536 everything. 00:07:25.718 --> 00:07:27.379 And I also like to work. 00:07:27.499 --> 00:07:29.579 So I have a few modules on drupal.org. 00:07:30.100 --> 00:07:33.002 So I also want to contribute to Drupal. 00:07:33.702 --> 00:07:36.685 And that's why I'm always very curious how 00:07:36.745 --> 00:07:39.047 other projects manage stuff. 00:07:40.088 --> 00:07:43.189 For example, the edited experience. 00:07:45.211 --> 00:07:47.793 Drupal hasn't always been the best in the 00:07:47.894 --> 00:07:49.036 edited experience. 00:07:49.295 --> 00:07:50.456 And for example, 00:07:50.497 --> 00:07:53.341 that's something I was very curious about. 00:07:53.922 --> 00:07:56.064 And other CMSs, for example, 00:07:56.103 --> 00:07:57.865 WordPress with Gutenberg, 00:07:58.968 --> 00:07:59.668 with the other 00:08:01.329 --> 00:08:05.571 uh builders um and you know i think 00:08:05.610 --> 00:08:08.271 it's interesting so i don't want to be 00:08:08.290 --> 00:08:11.351 the the person that only looks at drupal 00:08:11.492 --> 00:08:13.492 and doesn't know anything about anything 00:08:13.572 --> 00:08:18.052 else and if if a friend or a 00:08:18.093 --> 00:08:21.454 client would ask me if something is a 00:08:21.533 --> 00:08:23.233 fit for drupal and it isn't that i 00:08:23.274 --> 00:08:25.553 can also say no but i would look 00:08:25.754 --> 00:08:28.035 at if i were you hopefully 00:08:28.954 --> 00:08:31.817 So that's really important to me. 00:08:32.098 --> 00:08:34.540 What have you found in that process? 00:08:34.620 --> 00:08:39.124 Are there some other CMSs that are really 00:08:39.163 --> 00:08:42.286 good at this type of thing or anything 00:08:42.305 --> 00:08:45.668 that you're interested in and would be 00:08:45.728 --> 00:08:48.211 interested enough that it would maybe lure 00:08:48.230 --> 00:08:51.574 you away to play around in something else 00:08:51.634 --> 00:08:52.254 other than Drupal? 00:08:53.634 --> 00:08:56.415 Yeah, mostly editor experience. 00:08:56.576 --> 00:08:58.016 I looked into a lot, like I said, 00:08:58.197 --> 00:09:00.476 and I think WordPress was always better at 00:09:00.536 --> 00:09:00.677 it. 00:09:03.398 --> 00:09:05.798 And I've done projects in WordPress, 00:09:05.999 --> 00:09:07.959 but then I missed some core 00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:10.461 functionalities that were in Drupal. 00:09:10.641 --> 00:09:13.341 So I always was on the fence about 00:09:13.362 --> 00:09:13.721 that. 00:09:15.982 --> 00:09:16.802 I think now 00:09:18.004 --> 00:09:20.245 Really recently Drupal Canvas came out, 00:09:20.584 --> 00:09:21.105 uh, 00:09:21.125 --> 00:09:23.545 for Drupal and I've been working really 00:09:23.605 --> 00:09:24.586 hard on that now. 00:09:24.687 --> 00:09:26.567 And for me, 00:09:26.627 --> 00:09:29.228 it's the missing piece of the puzzle for 00:09:29.288 --> 00:09:29.709 Drupal. 00:09:29.749 --> 00:09:33.911 Uh, and it's everything. 00:09:34.091 --> 00:09:36.012 I think the Drupal community missed and 00:09:36.112 --> 00:09:38.632 edited experience, uh, fee, 00:09:38.692 --> 00:09:41.653 it feels to me like it's be resolved 00:09:41.673 --> 00:09:42.173 that now. 00:09:42.615 --> 00:09:43.334 Um, so. 00:09:44.021 --> 00:09:44.702 That's really interesting. 00:09:44.983 --> 00:09:48.305 But I also looked a lot at headless 00:09:48.406 --> 00:09:49.007 solutions. 00:09:50.067 --> 00:09:55.553 Then there are the more closed frameworks. 00:09:55.994 --> 00:09:57.995 But in my heart, 00:09:58.476 --> 00:10:03.282 I'm really an open source person. 00:10:03.481 --> 00:10:05.624 So I always find it hard 00:10:07.105 --> 00:10:10.046 to um someone asked me what what should 00:10:10.086 --> 00:10:12.167 we build this in to advise something 00:10:12.187 --> 00:10:15.227 that's closed because i don't know what's 00:10:15.248 --> 00:10:16.548 going to happen with the project in the 00:10:16.589 --> 00:10:19.970 future and if if if the code base 00:10:19.990 --> 00:10:25.091 is not yours it can be that the 00:10:25.131 --> 00:10:27.692 solution that i'm proposing then is not a 00:10:27.732 --> 00:10:30.033 durable solution for them and then two 00:10:30.073 --> 00:10:32.075 years later the the project stops and 00:10:33.220 --> 00:10:35.841 They have to migrate everything to another 00:10:35.860 --> 00:10:36.201 solution. 00:10:36.701 --> 00:10:38.722 And I don't like that. 00:10:38.763 --> 00:10:41.825 So I mainly look at open source solutions. 00:10:42.804 --> 00:10:44.125 Is that the thing that keeps bringing you 00:10:44.166 --> 00:10:46.167 back to open source is the community 00:10:46.206 --> 00:10:49.008 around the technology that's being built? 00:10:51.149 --> 00:10:52.629 Yeah, the people, 00:10:52.789 --> 00:10:57.753 but also the ability to really dig in 00:10:57.793 --> 00:10:59.693 the code and to understand what's 00:10:59.734 --> 00:11:00.193 happening. 00:11:02.344 --> 00:11:04.986 I tend to be curious and I like 00:11:05.027 --> 00:11:07.589 to dig in how stuff works. 00:11:07.629 --> 00:11:10.371 For example, I look in how Symfony works. 00:11:10.471 --> 00:11:12.033 Drupal uses a lot of Symfony. 00:11:14.895 --> 00:11:17.138 So for example, 00:11:17.498 --> 00:11:21.201 Drupal adopted the routing of Symfony. 00:11:22.740 --> 00:11:24.342 And you can just start using it, 00:11:24.423 --> 00:11:25.846 but then it feels a bit like a 00:11:25.885 --> 00:11:27.528 black box because you don't know what 00:11:27.568 --> 00:11:28.791 happens behind the scenes. 00:11:29.572 --> 00:11:31.716 And I'm the person who starts digging into 00:11:31.755 --> 00:11:33.479 the code to really understand it. 00:11:34.491 --> 00:11:36.715 more an helicopter view but i like to 00:11:36.754 --> 00:11:39.437 know what happens behind scenes and i for 00:11:39.498 --> 00:11:43.162 example i also look to laravel i did 00:11:43.182 --> 00:11:45.024 a lot of work in code igniter in 00:11:45.043 --> 00:11:47.285 the past so more the the mc the 00:11:47.306 --> 00:11:53.113 mvp frameworks cake php stuff like that so 00:11:53.413 --> 00:11:54.794 a lot of open source stuff 00:11:56.231 --> 00:11:58.913 And Drupal is in sort of a period 00:11:58.953 --> 00:11:59.594 of change, 00:11:59.614 --> 00:12:04.837 and obviously if you look at the total 00:12:04.878 --> 00:12:06.759 installations across all Drupal sites, 00:12:06.798 --> 00:12:10.461 the number hasn't grown in a while. 00:12:11.442 --> 00:12:12.884 But I think a lot of people, 00:12:13.144 --> 00:12:15.504 and we've had some folks that are from 00:12:15.524 --> 00:12:17.287 the Drupal community on the podcast 00:12:17.307 --> 00:12:17.647 before, 00:12:18.866 --> 00:12:20.248 But a lot of people believe that right 00:12:20.288 --> 00:12:22.808 now is the time for it to maybe 00:12:22.908 --> 00:12:23.690 make a resurgence. 00:12:24.110 --> 00:12:28.052 What is your take on both sort of 00:12:28.072 --> 00:12:31.974 the trajectory of Drupal up to now and 00:12:32.014 --> 00:12:34.294 also what its future is looking like? 00:12:35.470 --> 00:12:35.850 Yeah. 00:12:35.910 --> 00:12:39.094 So what I have observed from my personal 00:12:39.134 --> 00:12:42.177 view, from starting with Drupal six, 00:12:42.258 --> 00:12:44.720 I think Drupal seven really was the search 00:12:45.561 --> 00:12:47.283 and, uh, users. 00:12:47.423 --> 00:12:49.264 And if you would look at Google trends, 00:12:49.706 --> 00:12:51.807 it does lie since then it went, uh, 00:12:51.827 --> 00:12:53.549 downwards, uh, 00:12:56.085 --> 00:12:59.166 I think the main reason is Drupal got 00:12:59.265 --> 00:13:02.746 really complex and it moved more to 00:13:02.907 --> 00:13:05.028 enterprise and bigger projects. 00:13:05.368 --> 00:13:09.428 And it's really hard to do small websites 00:13:09.548 --> 00:13:11.009 in Drupal or it was hard. 00:13:11.529 --> 00:13:15.730 And that's also, so yeah, 00:13:16.130 --> 00:13:18.552 it was harder to jump into Drupal for 00:13:18.572 --> 00:13:19.652 the smaller projects. 00:13:20.666 --> 00:13:22.407 then WordPress would be easier. 00:13:22.506 --> 00:13:24.687 And it's also one of the reasons why 00:13:24.748 --> 00:13:28.409 I started to work on Webhaven because I 00:13:28.450 --> 00:13:33.472 felt like I want to bring the power 00:13:33.493 --> 00:13:36.073 of Drupal back to the little projects and 00:13:36.134 --> 00:13:40.475 to more people because I really believe in 00:13:40.515 --> 00:13:42.596 Drupal and how good it is. 00:13:44.138 --> 00:13:47.059 And that's also the reason why I made 00:13:47.100 --> 00:13:47.179 it. 00:13:48.427 --> 00:13:50.408 but I think mainly because it shifted more 00:13:50.448 --> 00:13:52.009 to enterprise and big projects. 00:13:52.230 --> 00:13:55.350 And I think personally now, uh, 00:13:55.431 --> 00:13:57.951 with everything that's going on in the 00:13:58.072 --> 00:13:59.293 community and in Drupal, 00:13:59.653 --> 00:14:01.474 there's a big chance that we can pull 00:14:01.514 --> 00:14:02.014 it back. 00:14:02.573 --> 00:14:05.355 And I'll try to be one of the 00:14:05.654 --> 00:14:06.916 people that, uh, 00:14:07.475 --> 00:14:09.037 helps to do that with web haven, 00:14:09.076 --> 00:14:11.018 but also with my work on Drupal in 00:14:11.057 --> 00:14:11.418 general. 00:14:12.870 --> 00:14:13.091 Yeah. 00:14:13.312 --> 00:14:14.991 Let's get into that a little bit. 00:14:15.692 --> 00:14:20.315 Talk about what is Webhaven and what led 00:14:20.375 --> 00:14:23.136 you to found this new company. 00:14:24.096 --> 00:14:24.417 Yeah. 00:14:24.496 --> 00:14:27.719 So Webhaven to me is like the ultimate 00:14:27.798 --> 00:14:29.200 Drupal site starter. 00:14:29.679 --> 00:14:30.941 So the name says it. 00:14:31.520 --> 00:14:33.562 You can really spin up a project in 00:14:33.581 --> 00:14:34.562 Drupal really fast. 00:14:36.682 --> 00:14:37.663 It's like a blueprint, 00:14:37.702 --> 00:14:40.423 so it holds everything that I've done or 00:14:40.524 --> 00:14:42.083 seen in the last fifteen years. 00:14:42.583 --> 00:14:44.063 So to me, 00:14:44.104 --> 00:14:46.004 it's more like the Olympic minimum. 00:14:46.065 --> 00:14:48.004 What do you really need to have a 00:14:48.044 --> 00:14:52.086 quality Drupal site from day one? 00:14:52.405 --> 00:14:54.466 And then people can take that as a 00:14:54.505 --> 00:14:56.787 starter and do their own thing with it. 00:14:59.206 --> 00:15:00.187 Where does it come from? 00:15:01.047 --> 00:15:02.707 The idea has always been in the back 00:15:02.748 --> 00:15:03.388 of my mind. 00:15:05.854 --> 00:15:09.174 And it felt like it was something that 00:15:09.254 --> 00:15:11.355 I had to get out of my system. 00:15:12.397 --> 00:15:15.138 I've been working really long on Drupal, 00:15:15.878 --> 00:15:17.578 and I also had the feeling if a 00:15:17.658 --> 00:15:19.899 good friend would come to me and say, 00:15:19.960 --> 00:15:22.400 Fons, can you please make this in Drupal, 00:15:22.801 --> 00:15:24.721 that I didn't have the tool to say, 00:15:24.802 --> 00:15:25.121 yes, 00:15:26.081 --> 00:15:28.263 I'll come to your house tomorrow and let's 00:15:28.302 --> 00:15:28.442 go. 00:15:28.543 --> 00:15:29.644 We're going to make it together. 00:15:31.203 --> 00:15:32.326 And now I do. 00:15:32.846 --> 00:15:34.389 And I also felt like I had a 00:15:34.429 --> 00:15:35.991 lot of stuff in my mind, 00:15:36.052 --> 00:15:38.517 but not in a project. 00:15:38.537 --> 00:15:40.220 So I wanted to make it tangible. 00:15:41.041 --> 00:15:42.724 And that's where it came from. 00:15:43.563 --> 00:15:44.764 And then also, like I said, 00:15:45.086 --> 00:15:48.168 Drupal was moving to the big projects and 00:15:48.249 --> 00:15:50.750 to pull it back and make it viable 00:15:50.791 --> 00:15:51.711 for small projects. 00:15:52.131 --> 00:15:55.254 And I think that's now something that is 00:15:55.495 --> 00:15:58.077 able with Webhaven. 00:15:58.639 --> 00:16:02.601 And also a lot of people say Drupal 00:16:02.642 --> 00:16:03.482 is hard to learn. 00:16:03.964 --> 00:16:05.806 And that's also something that I want to 00:16:08.111 --> 00:16:11.115 work on with webhaven to to to make 00:16:11.134 --> 00:16:13.758 the barrier lower also for newcomers and 00:16:13.817 --> 00:16:16.259 learners to have a good starting point and 00:16:16.320 --> 00:16:18.802 to to start right right away with a 00:16:18.863 --> 00:16:21.465 project and that they know they start from 00:16:21.524 --> 00:16:24.889 best practices but also for drupal experts 00:16:25.109 --> 00:16:28.952 or for example agencies that are now doing 00:16:28.993 --> 00:16:31.615 wordpress but are curious about drupal for 00:16:31.654 --> 00:16:32.096 example 00:16:34.644 --> 00:16:41.048 Is Webhaven something like a premium sort 00:16:41.068 --> 00:16:42.649 of thing where you would go to the 00:16:42.690 --> 00:16:45.591 website and pay whatever amount and then 00:16:45.630 --> 00:16:46.532 download the package, 00:16:46.572 --> 00:16:48.052 or is it purely open source? 00:16:48.072 --> 00:16:53.316 What's your business model around it? 00:16:54.196 --> 00:16:54.475 Yeah, 00:16:54.495 --> 00:16:56.456 I'd love to offer it indeed as a 00:16:56.557 --> 00:16:58.339 premium package that you can pay and 00:16:58.379 --> 00:16:59.038 download it. 00:16:59.278 --> 00:17:01.701 And it has a visual installer. 00:17:02.181 --> 00:17:04.202 You have a lot of options because it 00:17:04.243 --> 00:17:05.623 consists of recipes. 00:17:05.663 --> 00:17:07.664 So it's like a menu card and you 00:17:07.705 --> 00:17:08.905 can select what you want. 00:17:09.385 --> 00:17:12.048 It sets it up and you can go 00:17:12.087 --> 00:17:12.947 from it right away. 00:17:12.967 --> 00:17:16.650 And then developers or people who want to 00:17:17.390 --> 00:17:19.692 learn Drupal can put in their own stuff. 00:17:19.793 --> 00:17:21.634 But it has a lot of stuff from 00:17:22.995 --> 00:17:23.215 the go. 00:17:25.061 --> 00:17:26.660 And as I understand it, 00:17:26.721 --> 00:17:29.241 you've sort of built it out from like 00:17:29.802 --> 00:17:31.462 years of, of experience in, 00:17:31.562 --> 00:17:33.942 in sort of like agency work and like 00:17:33.982 --> 00:17:35.524 solving the same sort of problems over and 00:17:35.583 --> 00:17:35.803 over. 00:17:36.323 --> 00:17:36.384 Um, 00:17:36.423 --> 00:17:39.245 talk about like the thought and care that, 00:17:39.365 --> 00:17:41.645 and like, you know, how you approached, 00:17:41.666 --> 00:17:44.025 uh, like architecting it, uh, 00:17:44.086 --> 00:17:45.245 from that sort of, uh, 00:17:45.307 --> 00:17:46.226 perspective of like, 00:17:46.307 --> 00:17:48.907 these are just like the five or ten 00:17:48.927 --> 00:17:50.467 things that we have to do every single 00:17:50.508 --> 00:17:50.707 time. 00:17:51.830 --> 00:17:53.091 Yeah, 00:17:53.130 --> 00:17:56.613 so I've worked in a Drupal agency for 00:17:56.692 --> 00:17:57.274 ten years. 00:17:57.474 --> 00:17:59.796 So I started as a Drupal developer and 00:17:59.816 --> 00:18:02.297 then more moved to Scrum Master and Team 00:18:02.336 --> 00:18:02.658 Lead. 00:18:03.378 --> 00:18:07.801 But the company was struggling and we 00:18:07.860 --> 00:18:10.702 always had a hard time to find someone 00:18:10.763 --> 00:18:12.303 to do the commercial side, 00:18:12.323 --> 00:18:13.424 so the sales side. 00:18:14.666 --> 00:18:18.808 And I also was helping to find the 00:18:18.849 --> 00:18:20.190 right fit for that role. 00:18:21.413 --> 00:18:24.618 But we didn't really find the right person 00:18:24.759 --> 00:18:25.740 or it never clicked. 00:18:26.260 --> 00:18:28.884 And I was so fed up with that 00:18:28.943 --> 00:18:31.928 process and to see how the company was 00:18:31.968 --> 00:18:35.172 slipping away and that I started to do 00:18:35.211 --> 00:18:35.772 the sales. 00:18:36.894 --> 00:18:38.715 I didn't know anything about sales, 00:18:38.836 --> 00:18:41.739 so I had to learn everything by doing 00:18:41.798 --> 00:18:41.999 it. 00:18:42.319 --> 00:18:48.065 And that's when I learned what was 00:18:48.144 --> 00:18:50.047 important for clients because I was 00:18:50.126 --> 00:18:51.428 talking to them all the time. 00:18:53.650 --> 00:18:57.272 I also always thought sales was really 00:18:57.593 --> 00:18:58.073 boring. 00:18:58.512 --> 00:19:02.036 But then I also realized that sales could 00:19:02.076 --> 00:19:05.557 be a creative process and I tried to 00:19:05.577 --> 00:19:06.538 do it my way. 00:19:07.859 --> 00:19:09.901 The way that I did it wasn't scalable 00:19:09.961 --> 00:19:10.321 at all. 00:19:10.362 --> 00:19:12.962 So that was a huge problem because I 00:19:12.982 --> 00:19:14.463 had a unique way of doing it, 00:19:14.544 --> 00:19:16.306 but it worked really well for us. 00:19:16.965 --> 00:19:19.087 And that's really where I learned 00:19:20.342 --> 00:19:23.384 what needed to be in the projects because 00:19:23.544 --> 00:19:25.025 and that back in the days i also 00:19:25.085 --> 00:19:27.946 did the analysis because i didn't only 00:19:27.987 --> 00:19:29.647 want to do the sales so i also 00:19:29.688 --> 00:19:33.210 did a lot of analysis and wireframing so 00:19:33.270 --> 00:19:36.112 i had a lot of hats but that 00:19:36.152 --> 00:19:39.193 was a really nice period for me to 00:19:39.253 --> 00:19:42.656 figure out all that stuff and web haven 00:19:42.737 --> 00:19:46.578 really is all those hats in one uh 00:19:46.659 --> 00:19:48.961 platform um 00:19:50.382 --> 00:19:53.042 I always wanted to make it together with 00:19:53.103 --> 00:19:54.943 my colleagues colleagues back then, 00:19:55.144 --> 00:19:57.484 but it was always hard to get everyone 00:19:57.605 --> 00:19:59.925 on the same page or why I wasn't 00:19:59.965 --> 00:20:03.527 good enough in, uh, explaining my vision. 00:20:04.667 --> 00:20:07.189 And that's also where the rise of the 00:20:07.328 --> 00:20:10.069 LLMs really helped because I had it all 00:20:10.109 --> 00:20:10.809 in my head, 00:20:11.750 --> 00:20:15.451 but I was doing sales analysis, 00:20:15.932 --> 00:20:19.794 wire framing, and I wasn't coding, uh, 00:20:20.498 --> 00:20:21.459 daily anymore, 00:20:21.699 --> 00:20:25.201 only in the weekends or after hours 00:20:25.381 --> 00:20:27.041 because I always liked Drupal. 00:20:27.061 --> 00:20:27.721 So I kept, 00:20:28.142 --> 00:20:29.682 I didn't want to be the sales guy 00:20:29.702 --> 00:20:31.903 that didn't know anything about the 00:20:31.963 --> 00:20:32.484 product. 00:20:32.704 --> 00:20:35.086 So I kept really active in that. 00:20:36.686 --> 00:20:38.428 And with the rise of the LLMs, 00:20:39.548 --> 00:20:41.089 all of a sudden I was like, okay, 00:20:42.029 --> 00:20:44.771 the barrier for me to get back in 00:20:44.832 --> 00:20:47.053 the building game lowered. 00:20:49.169 --> 00:20:50.951 you have no excuses anymore. 00:20:51.191 --> 00:20:52.811 Now you have to just go for it. 00:20:53.553 --> 00:20:56.895 And it's also a bit scary because there 00:20:56.935 --> 00:20:58.076 are no excuses left. 00:20:58.096 --> 00:20:59.557 So I just have to do it now. 00:21:00.157 --> 00:21:02.519 And that's where we are right now. 00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:06.143 So I have a demo environment and stuff 00:21:06.163 --> 00:21:06.563 like that. 00:21:06.963 --> 00:21:10.605 I'm finishing up on WebHaven and then we 00:21:10.625 --> 00:21:15.029 can start selling it. 00:21:16.851 --> 00:21:16.991 And 00:21:18.387 --> 00:21:21.750 One of the things that my experience using 00:21:22.970 --> 00:21:26.152 ChatGPT and Cloud and other things is 00:21:26.251 --> 00:21:29.134 pretty good at is especially if you have 00:21:29.173 --> 00:21:30.614 a whole bunch of things in your head 00:21:30.653 --> 00:21:31.615 and you're just like, 00:21:32.055 --> 00:21:34.997 I'm just going to brain dump in this 00:21:35.076 --> 00:21:36.017 chat box, right? 00:21:37.919 --> 00:21:40.340 it's like were you also sort of using 00:21:40.401 --> 00:21:42.501 it to kind of synthesize those ideas a 00:21:42.521 --> 00:21:45.505 little bit and like like basically help 00:21:45.545 --> 00:21:47.806 you say okay this is the approach that 00:21:47.826 --> 00:21:49.227 you should go this is how we combine 00:21:49.267 --> 00:21:53.150 all those disparate ideas i've went to 00:21:53.210 --> 00:21:56.653 different phases in the first phase i made 00:21:56.712 --> 00:21:58.815 a mind map of stuff and i chat 00:22:00.415 --> 00:22:02.416 if i would ask a colleague or a 00:22:02.477 --> 00:22:02.817 friend 00:22:04.163 --> 00:22:05.786 it it's hard to get them to be 00:22:05.965 --> 00:22:09.371 ruthlessly honest and llm has no problem 00:22:09.391 --> 00:22:12.756 with that so so first the first phase 00:22:12.796 --> 00:22:15.460 was my brainstorming phase and have an llm 00:22:15.519 --> 00:22:16.221 bash on it 00:22:17.410 --> 00:22:20.152 and also strip away stuff because in that 00:22:20.192 --> 00:22:22.153 phase I had a lot of shiny object 00:22:22.213 --> 00:22:22.713 syndrome. 00:22:22.753 --> 00:22:24.976 So I really had to get to the 00:22:25.016 --> 00:22:25.616 basics. 00:22:26.237 --> 00:22:28.878 And then also in the building, uh, 00:22:28.898 --> 00:22:31.421 it really helped out a lot in architecture 00:22:31.942 --> 00:22:34.103 and stuff that I would normally ask a 00:22:34.143 --> 00:22:37.486 colleague, but I, then I would, uh, 00:22:39.634 --> 00:22:42.154 wouldn't be sure if if they gave me 00:22:42.214 --> 00:22:45.036 the the rootless answers that i needed and 00:22:45.336 --> 00:22:47.876 an llm lowered that barrier that doesn't 00:22:47.916 --> 00:22:50.376 mean i didn't ask people but i first 00:22:50.416 --> 00:22:52.837 went to the llm and then showed people 00:22:52.998 --> 00:22:55.459 or asked people that i knew would help 00:22:56.219 --> 00:22:58.819 so yeah it really speed up the process 00:22:58.839 --> 00:22:59.200 for me 00:23:02.709 --> 00:23:06.971 It's interesting that your first response 00:23:07.010 --> 00:23:12.874 to that was how LLMs don't have the 00:23:12.973 --> 00:23:13.875 polite factor, 00:23:15.035 --> 00:23:17.997 particularly because I feel like I have to 00:23:18.057 --> 00:23:19.317 constantly fight with... 00:23:19.978 --> 00:23:22.181 uh chat gpt and other things to get 00:23:22.240 --> 00:23:24.964 it to be a little bit more objective 00:23:25.065 --> 00:23:27.327 a little bit more uh ruthless in your 00:23:27.347 --> 00:23:30.873 words uh to to be like no actually 00:23:31.173 --> 00:23:33.695 tell me like what you act like the 00:23:33.715 --> 00:23:34.557 the objective 00:23:35.057 --> 00:23:38.142 response to this as opposed to making it 00:23:38.221 --> 00:23:41.526 pretty and stroking my ego. 00:23:41.586 --> 00:23:45.230 Have you gone through and put in specific 00:23:45.270 --> 00:23:47.933 instructions to kind of tune it in that 00:23:47.973 --> 00:23:50.778 way so it's a little bit more blunt? 00:23:52.474 --> 00:23:55.175 yeah by default uh what it gave back 00:23:55.195 --> 00:23:58.696 to me was was was useless because 00:23:58.817 --> 00:24:01.576 everything just went with the flow and 00:24:01.616 --> 00:24:04.798 good id and that's also when i started 00:24:04.857 --> 00:24:07.318 reading about it and how to prompt and 00:24:07.959 --> 00:24:10.378 first to put the llm in an in 00:24:10.459 --> 00:24:12.779 a role for example you are a 00:24:13.820 --> 00:24:18.248 elite and you are very biased. 00:24:18.268 --> 00:24:20.330 You don't want to go with this solution. 00:24:20.451 --> 00:24:22.374 So you have to make a lot of 00:24:22.453 --> 00:24:26.400 context and put it in a situation where 00:24:26.420 --> 00:24:27.501 it will object a lot. 00:24:28.891 --> 00:24:31.771 and then let it bash on what you're 00:24:31.791 --> 00:24:32.352 proposing. 00:24:33.112 --> 00:24:36.393 And I also think my sales experience 00:24:36.792 --> 00:24:39.354 helped with this because I experienced a 00:24:39.394 --> 00:24:40.773 lot of objections. 00:24:42.355 --> 00:24:44.434 But it's really important. 00:24:45.255 --> 00:24:46.996 I think most of the work and the 00:24:47.036 --> 00:24:49.415 prompting went into getting it into that 00:24:49.496 --> 00:24:51.537 state and not the prompt itself. 00:24:53.015 --> 00:24:57.258 But it's worth it to learn that by 00:24:57.317 --> 00:24:57.939 doing it. 00:24:58.019 --> 00:25:00.000 There's no magic formula for this. 00:25:00.540 --> 00:25:02.622 It's really learning by doing, I'm afraid. 00:25:02.862 --> 00:25:06.585 I don't have silver bullets for this. 00:25:06.605 --> 00:25:06.785 Sorry. 00:25:06.825 --> 00:25:06.865 No, 00:25:06.885 --> 00:25:08.967 but I think that's a really good insight 00:25:08.987 --> 00:25:12.269 because I think that it's... 00:25:13.666 --> 00:25:19.148 very tempting because the interface that 00:25:19.249 --> 00:25:22.529 most of these LLMs use is just a 00:25:22.589 --> 00:25:23.631 chat box, right? 00:25:24.151 --> 00:25:28.471 It's tempting to treat it like just a 00:25:28.592 --> 00:25:29.532 conversation 00:25:30.593 --> 00:25:32.334 you know, like I'm talking to you, right? 00:25:32.834 --> 00:25:33.874 I'm not going to go to you and 00:25:33.913 --> 00:25:34.134 say, 00:25:34.453 --> 00:25:35.914 you're a developer and this is all of 00:25:35.934 --> 00:25:36.855 the things that you think. 00:25:36.894 --> 00:25:37.595 And like, you know, 00:25:37.615 --> 00:25:39.215 like I'm not going to do that because 00:25:39.516 --> 00:25:41.076 you are a human being and you have 00:25:41.096 --> 00:25:42.696 an experience and like, that's the whole, 00:25:42.817 --> 00:25:44.017 like, that's the right. 00:25:44.396 --> 00:25:46.577 But like the LLMs don't have that. 00:25:46.617 --> 00:25:46.837 Right. 00:25:46.877 --> 00:25:47.678 So like, I think it's, 00:25:47.758 --> 00:25:49.519 I think it's a valid point to, 00:25:49.898 --> 00:25:51.960 to take the time to set up the 00:25:52.019 --> 00:25:53.140 stage and, 00:25:53.339 --> 00:25:55.661 And I know it can be a lot 00:25:55.681 --> 00:25:58.000 of work to even like come up with 00:25:58.080 --> 00:26:00.241 like what you want that to be because 00:26:00.281 --> 00:26:01.442 anything is sort of possible. 00:26:02.442 --> 00:26:03.702 So I think that's a really valid point 00:26:03.722 --> 00:26:07.784 to like sort of spend a decent enough 00:26:07.824 --> 00:26:11.464 time on that part to get the better 00:26:11.505 --> 00:26:11.845 results. 00:26:13.306 --> 00:26:13.905 Yeah, 00:26:13.987 --> 00:26:16.347 if I if I can add to that, 00:26:16.587 --> 00:26:18.648 I think it also comes back when I 00:26:18.709 --> 00:26:20.410 told you on Symphony that I like to 00:26:20.450 --> 00:26:21.871 dig in how stuff works. 00:26:22.432 --> 00:26:24.913 I had the same reaction with an LLM. 00:26:24.952 --> 00:26:25.854 How does it work? 00:26:25.894 --> 00:26:26.753 How can you improve? 00:26:26.794 --> 00:26:28.434 And there's a lot of out there how 00:26:28.474 --> 00:26:29.915 you can improve your prompting. 00:26:30.676 --> 00:26:34.419 And that was something that I learned fast 00:26:34.459 --> 00:26:35.680 and that helped me a lot. 00:26:36.160 --> 00:26:38.280 And to understand, OK, how does this work? 00:26:38.340 --> 00:26:40.301 How can I stage it into a role? 00:26:40.342 --> 00:26:40.923 How can I 00:26:42.304 --> 00:26:43.924 make sure I get what I want out 00:26:43.944 --> 00:26:45.506 of it, because otherwise they just say, 00:26:45.806 --> 00:26:47.047 oh, great idea, 00:26:47.086 --> 00:26:49.147 go for it or just add this or 00:26:49.188 --> 00:26:49.528 that. 00:26:50.068 --> 00:26:52.890 But that's that's not what I wanted. 00:26:52.990 --> 00:26:55.352 I wanted to be to to be brutally 00:26:55.432 --> 00:26:59.193 honest and really be harsh on my ideas, 00:26:59.294 --> 00:27:02.915 challenge them more than a human would do. 00:27:04.616 --> 00:27:06.278 And it works really well for that. 00:27:06.759 --> 00:27:07.259 Yeah. 00:27:07.318 --> 00:27:09.000 And it also hurts a bit when you 00:27:09.039 --> 00:27:10.121 do it well and then, you know, 00:27:10.984 --> 00:27:11.885 that it works well. 00:27:12.346 --> 00:27:14.209 If an LLM is like, oh, good idea, 00:27:14.269 --> 00:27:16.211 I'm mostly like, uh-oh, this is not good. 00:27:16.230 --> 00:27:17.652 Right, right. 00:27:17.751 --> 00:27:19.394 Yeah, for sure. 00:27:19.493 --> 00:27:20.976 Yeah. 00:27:21.096 --> 00:27:23.318 Whenever I get a response that says that 00:27:23.358 --> 00:27:24.180 that's a great idea, 00:27:24.220 --> 00:27:25.019 I'm always suspicious. 00:27:26.542 --> 00:27:31.566 That's a good reflex to have. 00:27:31.726 --> 00:27:35.268 I've been using ChatGPT basically since it 00:27:35.307 --> 00:27:38.409 became public and just watching it change 00:27:38.469 --> 00:27:40.289 over time and using it for different types 00:27:40.329 --> 00:27:41.671 of things. 00:27:41.730 --> 00:27:44.172 My experience with it has been through 00:27:44.352 --> 00:27:48.173 using it for non... 00:27:48.213 --> 00:27:49.614 I play Dungeons & Dragons, 00:27:49.653 --> 00:27:50.914 I run Dungeons & Dragons games. 00:27:52.256 --> 00:27:53.436 I was at the time when I first 00:27:53.457 --> 00:27:55.978 started starting to read H.P. 00:27:56.018 --> 00:27:56.699 Lovecraft stories, 00:27:56.759 --> 00:27:58.240 one of the first tests that I gave 00:27:58.279 --> 00:28:05.744 it was write a romance story in the 00:28:05.765 --> 00:28:06.365 style of H.P. 00:28:06.405 --> 00:28:08.767 Lovecraft, with the idea being H.P. 00:28:08.807 --> 00:28:11.308 Lovecraft has never and would never have 00:28:11.348 --> 00:28:12.930 written a romance story, 00:28:13.230 --> 00:28:14.611 so what is it going to do with 00:28:14.631 --> 00:28:15.291 this challenge? 00:28:15.771 --> 00:28:17.272 How is it going to approach these two 00:28:17.333 --> 00:28:18.134 disparate ideas? 00:28:18.733 --> 00:28:20.935 And then I use that as a sort 00:28:20.955 --> 00:28:21.656 of a metric. 00:28:21.696 --> 00:28:22.436 Every once in a while, 00:28:22.497 --> 00:28:23.397 a new release comes out, 00:28:23.417 --> 00:28:24.159 and I'll be like, okay, 00:28:24.239 --> 00:28:25.219 what is this version doing? 00:28:25.579 --> 00:28:26.440 How have things changed? 00:28:26.460 --> 00:28:28.342 And then a friend of mine gave me 00:28:28.382 --> 00:28:32.664 the idea of running it through their 00:28:32.865 --> 00:28:33.465 online... 00:28:34.767 --> 00:28:37.228 uh like language uh tests or you can 00:28:37.268 --> 00:28:39.448 like put a like like teachers sort of 00:28:39.528 --> 00:28:40.907 use it so you can like it gives 00:28:40.928 --> 00:28:43.288 you like a score on like reading level 00:28:43.368 --> 00:28:45.269 and comprehension and that's like what 00:28:45.308 --> 00:28:47.029 sort of age group or what sort of 00:28:47.069 --> 00:28:49.670 like you know uh academic level does this 00:28:49.710 --> 00:28:53.211 correspond to um so i i would like 00:28:53.451 --> 00:28:55.632 again sort of like get the metric of 00:28:55.672 --> 00:28:57.451 like putting lovecraft into that to see 00:28:57.511 --> 00:28:59.551 what he actually wrote in and then compare 00:28:59.592 --> 00:29:01.532 that with what uh what the ais can 00:29:01.573 --> 00:29:01.692 do 00:29:02.712 --> 00:29:04.973 and see how things have changed over time. 00:29:05.594 --> 00:29:08.114 And so you can learn a lot by 00:29:08.213 --> 00:29:09.554 playing with it and doing these different 00:29:09.574 --> 00:29:12.275 sorts of things. 00:29:13.535 --> 00:29:15.076 But I think that a lot of the 00:29:15.415 --> 00:29:19.195 sort of deeper technical stuff that has 00:29:19.236 --> 00:29:20.277 come out of it is like, yeah, 00:29:20.297 --> 00:29:21.297 you really need to, 00:29:22.757 --> 00:29:26.478 if you want something beyond just great 00:29:26.538 --> 00:29:28.117 idea, you're amazing, 00:29:28.837 --> 00:29:31.259 you really need to create that sort of 00:29:31.298 --> 00:29:32.058 baseline for it 00:29:35.319 --> 00:29:35.500 Yeah. 00:29:35.560 --> 00:29:35.861 Yeah, totally. 00:29:35.901 --> 00:29:38.781 You have to really dig in how it 00:29:38.862 --> 00:29:42.064 works and experiment with it. 00:29:43.224 --> 00:29:44.965 You have to embrace it, 00:29:46.366 --> 00:29:49.749 which isn't always easy when you go to 00:29:49.769 --> 00:29:53.371 the change topic or how people embrace 00:29:53.411 --> 00:29:57.432 change, which isn't always easy to do. 00:29:58.960 --> 00:29:59.099 Yeah, 00:29:59.319 --> 00:30:01.520 I feel like I feel like in order 00:30:01.560 --> 00:30:03.001 to really, like, 00:30:03.102 --> 00:30:04.163 I feel like I need to know a 00:30:04.242 --> 00:30:05.624 lot about how it works. 00:30:05.723 --> 00:30:07.045 And I need to know a lot about 00:30:07.065 --> 00:30:09.346 how it works by using it to be 00:30:09.385 --> 00:30:12.067 able to be critical of it as a 00:30:12.146 --> 00:30:13.627 technology as like, 00:30:13.688 --> 00:30:14.788 where is it going in the future? 00:30:15.189 --> 00:30:17.309 the things that it's affecting now and the 00:30:17.329 --> 00:30:18.450 things that it might be affecting, 00:30:18.851 --> 00:30:22.031 you know, ten years from now. 00:30:22.612 --> 00:30:24.492 Because without like actually using it, 00:30:24.553 --> 00:30:26.673 you just are like basing your information 00:30:26.773 --> 00:30:28.335 on things that people have told you. 00:30:28.375 --> 00:30:30.055 But like, there's a lot of like, 00:30:30.694 --> 00:30:32.435 there's so much hype about like, 00:30:32.955 --> 00:30:33.916 it's going to change everything, 00:30:33.977 --> 00:30:35.758 it's going to cure cancer, 00:30:35.798 --> 00:30:36.557 it's going to do whatever. 00:30:38.154 --> 00:30:39.776 And then on the other hand, there's like, 00:30:40.797 --> 00:30:42.938 yeah, X is using it for porn. 00:30:42.958 --> 00:30:43.238 Like, you know, 00:30:43.258 --> 00:30:47.381 like there's just like this broad spectrum 00:30:47.441 --> 00:30:48.922 of like, you know, what, 00:30:49.281 --> 00:30:51.124 what we're being told it can be used 00:30:51.163 --> 00:30:52.785 for versus yeah. 00:30:52.805 --> 00:30:54.945 What's actually being used for. 00:30:55.105 --> 00:30:55.287 It's, 00:30:55.586 --> 00:30:57.728 it's something that I have really mixed 00:30:57.807 --> 00:31:02.090 emotions about because, uh, sometimes I, 00:31:03.231 --> 00:31:04.333 the more I use it, 00:31:04.553 --> 00:31:06.173 the more I think that, okay, 00:31:07.904 --> 00:31:13.248 maybe we even uh under hype how big 00:31:13.288 --> 00:31:15.190 of a change this can be but that's 00:31:15.230 --> 00:31:20.333 when i dig into domains for example the 00:31:20.432 --> 00:31:25.195 the coding one in the last couple of 00:31:25.256 --> 00:31:29.358 weeks and months it's insane the the the 00:31:29.398 --> 00:31:31.019 change that i've seen personally 00:31:33.174 --> 00:31:34.734 But I'm on the fence about it a 00:31:34.775 --> 00:31:34.974 lot. 00:31:35.015 --> 00:31:36.036 Sometimes I'm like, okay, 00:31:36.056 --> 00:31:37.695 it's totally overhyped. 00:31:37.875 --> 00:31:41.596 Then some days I'm like, this is insane. 00:31:41.636 --> 00:31:44.797 I think people are underestimating how 00:31:44.836 --> 00:31:45.777 crazy it is. 00:31:47.198 --> 00:31:51.738 But it has so many domains that AI 00:31:51.778 --> 00:31:52.598 is touching. 00:31:53.278 --> 00:31:55.858 So it's hard to grasp sometimes. 00:31:57.480 --> 00:31:59.700 So I think change management. 00:32:01.394 --> 00:32:03.494 It's something that I don't read a lot 00:32:03.535 --> 00:32:06.156 about or don't see a lot of articles 00:32:06.196 --> 00:32:06.798 about now, 00:32:07.278 --> 00:32:10.400 but change management in companies is 00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:12.820 probably one of the most important things 00:32:14.241 --> 00:32:16.263 to read about or to get skilled in 00:32:17.904 --> 00:32:19.986 because it's everywhere now and how to get 00:32:20.046 --> 00:32:23.367 a team to embrace the change, 00:32:24.469 --> 00:32:27.971 how to deal with fear or the FOMO, 00:32:29.432 --> 00:32:30.413 a lot of FOMO in 00:32:32.377 --> 00:32:35.778 act on emotions mostly they don't take the 00:32:35.798 --> 00:32:37.159 the best they don't make the best 00:32:37.199 --> 00:32:41.059 decisions so yeah it's really it's really 00:32:41.160 --> 00:32:46.580 I'm uh I'm really uh baffled about the 00:32:46.621 --> 00:32:51.241 speed of only the domain that I have 00:32:51.321 --> 00:32:53.803 expertise in how fast it goes so it's 00:32:53.823 --> 00:32:57.963 it's hard to to grasp uh how it's 00:32:58.023 --> 00:32:58.923 changing the world 00:32:59.744 --> 00:33:01.326 Yeah, yeah. 00:33:01.346 --> 00:33:03.487 We'll swing back to that in a bit 00:33:03.507 --> 00:33:05.147 because I want to talk about how AI 00:33:05.647 --> 00:33:07.788 and Drupal intersect. 00:33:07.828 --> 00:33:10.089 But I want to go back to Webhaven 00:33:10.109 --> 00:33:11.111 for a second. 00:33:11.590 --> 00:33:12.550 A few months ago, 00:33:12.590 --> 00:33:13.692 we had Mike Herschel on, 00:33:13.811 --> 00:33:15.593 probably less than a few months ago, 00:33:17.032 --> 00:33:18.554 who created Dripyard, 00:33:19.934 --> 00:33:21.596 which is a theme development shop for 00:33:21.655 --> 00:33:21.935 Drupal. 00:33:22.036 --> 00:33:22.155 Yeah. 00:33:23.017 --> 00:33:29.428 How is Webhaven different than what Mike 00:33:29.468 --> 00:33:29.808 is doing? 00:33:30.970 --> 00:33:33.192 Yeah, I've seen their work, 00:33:33.271 --> 00:33:34.772 and I really love it. 00:33:34.992 --> 00:33:38.076 I think there have to be multiple 00:33:39.396 --> 00:33:40.877 solutions in the Drupal world, 00:33:40.998 --> 00:33:42.118 and that's also a good thing. 00:33:42.898 --> 00:33:43.380 For me, 00:33:43.440 --> 00:33:46.422 WebHaven more is like a total package. 00:33:46.902 --> 00:33:49.964 So it has an installer, 00:33:50.404 --> 00:33:52.207 it has recipes with features, 00:33:52.666 --> 00:33:55.409 and it also comes with a team, 00:33:55.509 --> 00:33:56.190 a base team. 00:33:56.910 --> 00:33:59.151 and if you go to the webhaven.io website 00:33:59.191 --> 00:34:01.991 now you see it in action so it's 00:34:02.071 --> 00:34:05.952 more than a team so i see it 00:34:06.012 --> 00:34:09.594 as the full a full package it's something 00:34:09.634 --> 00:34:12.315 that i've also been thinking about a lot 00:34:13.275 --> 00:34:16.195 isn't it too much for me as one 00:34:16.256 --> 00:34:21.498 person to do it from installer to end 00:34:21.557 --> 00:34:21.998 product 00:34:23.407 --> 00:34:24.828 but I like challenges. 00:34:24.969 --> 00:34:25.929 So I was like, 00:34:25.970 --> 00:34:27.190 and I had it in my mind and 00:34:27.250 --> 00:34:29.151 I, I said, no excuses. 00:34:29.230 --> 00:34:31.152 You have, you, you, you can do this. 00:34:31.192 --> 00:34:32.212 You have to go for it. 00:34:32.593 --> 00:34:34.153 Um, 00:34:34.193 --> 00:34:38.396 but it could be totally possible in the 00:34:38.436 --> 00:34:41.518 future that there also is an, uh, 00:34:41.578 --> 00:34:44.839 installation of web haven without a team 00:34:45.401 --> 00:34:46.441 and that it, for example, 00:34:46.540 --> 00:34:48.722 also works together with a drip yard team. 00:34:49.022 --> 00:34:49.262 Right. 00:34:50.035 --> 00:34:52.477 I'm open to work together with other 00:34:52.517 --> 00:34:52.916 people. 00:34:53.117 --> 00:34:53.877 For me, 00:34:54.218 --> 00:34:57.560 the main goal is to get Drupal back 00:34:57.601 --> 00:35:00.103 to the small projects and also show more 00:35:00.143 --> 00:35:01.964 people the power of Drupal, 00:35:02.085 --> 00:35:03.326 more organizations, 00:35:04.346 --> 00:35:06.887 because it's really powerful technology 00:35:07.888 --> 00:35:12.313 and I want more people to benefit from 00:35:12.373 --> 00:35:12.472 it. 00:35:14.247 --> 00:35:16.608 What sort of options are part of the 00:35:16.930 --> 00:35:18.351 installation process? 00:35:18.371 --> 00:35:20.732 Like I know that when you're installing 00:35:20.873 --> 00:35:23.194 Drupal CMS, it gives you like, Hey, 00:35:23.215 --> 00:35:24.317 are you going to do this type of 00:35:24.376 --> 00:35:25.538 content, that type of content? 00:35:25.597 --> 00:35:27.779 Is that sort of the workflow that you're 00:35:27.799 --> 00:35:28.621 working with as well? 00:35:29.441 --> 00:35:31.083 Yeah, it's the same vibe, 00:35:31.242 --> 00:35:32.825 just other nuances. 00:35:33.785 --> 00:35:34.506 In my opinion, 00:35:34.566 --> 00:35:38.469 Drupal CMS is more like a showcase of 00:35:38.489 --> 00:35:39.351 what Drupal can do. 00:35:40.461 --> 00:35:41.262 And to me, 00:35:42.123 --> 00:35:44.907 I was already working on Webhaven when I 00:35:45.606 --> 00:35:46.288 dug into it. 00:35:46.347 --> 00:35:47.849 But to me, 00:35:47.889 --> 00:35:50.371 it felt a bit too bloated. 00:35:51.012 --> 00:35:54.135 So I kept it more. 00:35:54.556 --> 00:35:59.179 It's more stripped what Webhaven is. 00:35:59.380 --> 00:36:01.322 To me, it's really the Olympic minimum, 00:36:01.702 --> 00:36:02.623 the essentials, 00:36:02.744 --> 00:36:03.864 and you can build on top of it. 00:36:06.536 --> 00:36:09.980 But now I have the baseline. 00:36:10.300 --> 00:36:11.681 So of course I have a lot of 00:36:11.943 --> 00:36:13.664 more stuff in my head to do with 00:36:13.724 --> 00:36:13.864 it. 00:36:14.184 --> 00:36:17.869 So now you have recipes, 00:36:18.030 --> 00:36:22.135 basic recipes on form building, SEO, 00:36:23.951 --> 00:36:25.771 landing pages, normal pages, 00:36:25.811 --> 00:36:29.411 then optional is a blog events showcase 00:36:29.773 --> 00:36:31.512 where you can make success stories, 00:36:32.032 --> 00:36:33.494 you can add your projects, 00:36:33.574 --> 00:36:36.014 you can add customer stories. 00:36:36.793 --> 00:36:37.554 But of course, 00:36:37.755 --> 00:36:39.695 I want to go beyond that. 00:36:40.315 --> 00:36:42.235 And I would also love to have, 00:36:42.536 --> 00:36:43.295 for example, 00:36:43.356 --> 00:36:46.376 a recipe that I'm working on now and 00:36:47.376 --> 00:36:48.978 brings AI into the mix. 00:36:51.635 --> 00:36:54.597 where the AI helps you in content 00:36:54.637 --> 00:36:55.157 structure. 00:36:56.976 --> 00:37:00.458 I don't want it to just generate slop, 00:37:00.597 --> 00:37:03.079 but in my personal experience, 00:37:04.039 --> 00:37:07.179 when somebody or something helps you with 00:37:07.219 --> 00:37:09.721 a good structure and you start working on 00:37:09.760 --> 00:37:10.141 that, 00:37:11.141 --> 00:37:14.961 it really boosts your workflow and also 00:37:16.143 --> 00:37:17.182 the vibe that you have. 00:37:18.692 --> 00:37:21.452 uh yeah it really boosts that so that's 00:37:21.472 --> 00:37:23.114 something that i want to get into that 00:37:23.574 --> 00:37:27.195 but yeah it's not the the goal to 00:37:28.097 --> 00:37:30.898 let it generate blog posts in ten seconds 00:37:31.199 --> 00:37:34.059 without any human supervising it so 00:37:34.659 --> 00:37:37.181 content quality will be a thing but also 00:37:37.242 --> 00:37:40.382 on the developer side and it's something 00:37:40.422 --> 00:37:42.905 that i'm experimenting experimenting a lot 00:37:43.994 --> 00:37:46.655 with so for example now i have webhaven 00:37:46.775 --> 00:37:50.715 and it has this base and i try 00:37:50.735 --> 00:37:53.835 to document everything with ai so every 00:37:54.036 --> 00:37:56.056 agent that would dig into the project 00:37:56.097 --> 00:37:58.016 would know what it is how it works 00:37:58.777 --> 00:38:01.157 and in the beginning it was really hard 00:38:01.177 --> 00:38:03.617 because i was making a lot of components 00:38:03.818 --> 00:38:06.159 but there was there was no reference for 00:38:06.219 --> 00:38:09.418 the ai to look at so most of 00:38:09.478 --> 00:38:11.760 them i made with ai but 00:38:12.858 --> 00:38:15.161 I had to do a lot of manual 00:38:15.240 --> 00:38:15.740 thinking. 00:38:15.981 --> 00:38:18.121 And now there are a lot of components. 00:38:18.483 --> 00:38:21.605 And it's really easy for me to tell 00:38:21.644 --> 00:38:25.306 the AI, here are your dirty components. 00:38:25.626 --> 00:38:26.306 Look at those. 00:38:26.447 --> 00:38:27.807 And we're going to make this now. 00:38:28.849 --> 00:38:31.951 It has this reference or this library of 00:38:31.990 --> 00:38:32.451 components. 00:38:33.050 --> 00:38:35.072 And now I see that it speeds up 00:38:35.311 --> 00:38:36.413 my development already. 00:38:36.833 --> 00:38:39.034 And I also want it for others. 00:38:39.173 --> 00:38:41.896 And all the components that exist now have 00:38:41.936 --> 00:38:42.956 the best practices. 00:38:43.556 --> 00:38:45.958 And I try to put the instructions in 00:38:45.998 --> 00:38:51.139 there for the AI to help people make 00:38:51.239 --> 00:38:54.161 stuff so they can invest their time in 00:38:54.181 --> 00:38:56.762 the cool stuff and not the boring stuff 00:38:56.782 --> 00:38:58.244 that you have to do on every project. 00:39:00.195 --> 00:39:01.916 Who's the audience for, for web payment? 00:39:01.976 --> 00:39:02.936 Is it individual? 00:39:02.976 --> 00:39:04.077 Like, uh, 00:39:04.117 --> 00:39:06.038 like I have my own business and I 00:39:06.057 --> 00:39:07.577 want to, uh, set up a Drupal site. 00:39:07.637 --> 00:39:08.797 Is it for agencies? 00:39:08.838 --> 00:39:11.458 Is it like a little bit of a 00:39:11.478 --> 00:39:12.739 column, a little column B? 00:39:13.760 --> 00:39:13.960 Yeah, 00:39:14.019 --> 00:39:15.699 it's something that I want to keep open 00:39:15.739 --> 00:39:15.920 now. 00:39:16.019 --> 00:39:18.440 So I'd love to have Drupal newcomers and 00:39:18.481 --> 00:39:18.960 learners, 00:39:19.420 --> 00:39:22.481 people who say Drupal super interesting, 00:39:22.541 --> 00:39:24.981 but I heard it has a high barrier. 00:39:25.483 --> 00:39:26.663 How can I get into it? 00:39:27.994 --> 00:39:29.916 Then to me personally, 00:39:30.777 --> 00:39:33.778 the best way is learning by doing with 00:39:33.818 --> 00:39:34.518 web haven. 00:39:34.699 --> 00:39:36.300 You can set up your, uh, 00:39:36.460 --> 00:39:37.621 project really fast. 00:39:39.541 --> 00:39:41.523 Uh, once version one is life, 00:39:41.724 --> 00:39:42.324 I would also, 00:39:43.164 --> 00:39:45.106 I also want to invest more time and 00:39:45.146 --> 00:39:46.106 video content. 00:39:46.327 --> 00:39:48.947 So I would want the dream is to 00:39:48.967 --> 00:39:52.130 make a web haven academy where I also 00:39:52.731 --> 00:39:54.672 make content for the different roles. 00:39:54.811 --> 00:39:56.393 So for newcomers and learners, 00:39:56.793 --> 00:39:57.474 for example, 00:39:59.076 --> 00:40:01.237 I don't want to make long courses. 00:40:01.378 --> 00:40:04.539 So snackable content, for example, 00:40:04.619 --> 00:40:05.021 together, 00:40:05.161 --> 00:40:07.702 we'll make your portfolio websites and 00:40:07.742 --> 00:40:09.023 we'll have it up together. 00:40:10.244 --> 00:40:12.987 And we're not going to make thousand 00:40:13.027 --> 00:40:14.248 websites that look the same. 00:40:14.268 --> 00:40:16.730 You'll also be able to add in your 00:40:16.969 --> 00:40:19.072 own, uh, your own vibe, 00:40:20.012 --> 00:40:21.474 but we can go through it together. 00:40:22.375 --> 00:40:23.715 But I also want it for, 00:40:23.936 --> 00:40:26.458 for seasoned Drupal experts that already 00:40:27.097 --> 00:40:27.639 use Drupal. 00:40:29.092 --> 00:40:30.293 Cause if we jump back to, 00:40:30.574 --> 00:40:32.675 to what we talked about earlier, 00:40:33.655 --> 00:40:36.376 a lot of change in the Drupal community. 00:40:36.416 --> 00:40:37.777 Now, a lot of new projects. 00:40:38.376 --> 00:40:39.476 I don't act every, 00:40:39.617 --> 00:40:41.918 everyone is already using all that new 00:40:41.958 --> 00:40:42.338 stuff. 00:40:43.619 --> 00:40:45.639 So, uh, 00:40:45.659 --> 00:40:48.221 I dug in all of it and sometimes 00:40:48.260 --> 00:40:49.181 it was overwhelming, 00:40:49.342 --> 00:40:51.262 but web haven uses all the new stuff. 00:40:51.601 --> 00:40:54.784 So also for existing, uh, Drupal experts, 00:40:55.384 --> 00:40:57.405 it's a easier way 00:40:59.226 --> 00:41:02.487 to level up and the, 00:41:02.867 --> 00:41:04.748 and to make projects faster. 00:41:05.409 --> 00:41:07.010 And also again, they can, 00:41:07.449 --> 00:41:08.510 it's not my plan, 00:41:08.570 --> 00:41:10.331 so they don't have to do anything anymore. 00:41:10.451 --> 00:41:11.311 But for example, 00:41:11.451 --> 00:41:13.251 they have dirty hours to work on a 00:41:13.311 --> 00:41:13.771 project, 00:41:14.311 --> 00:41:16.853 spend those dirty hours on what will make 00:41:16.893 --> 00:41:18.253 the difference for this project. 00:41:19.293 --> 00:41:21.014 Don't spend it to get it to work. 00:41:22.315 --> 00:41:24.715 It will work in the forest at the 00:41:24.755 --> 00:41:27.496 first two hours and use the other time. 00:41:28.643 --> 00:41:29.704 to hire the bar. 00:41:30.686 --> 00:41:33.628 So your projects will be better then. 00:41:34.128 --> 00:41:37.090 And I hope people will also enjoy what 00:41:37.130 --> 00:41:38.172 they are doing more. 00:41:39.652 --> 00:41:41.494 And then also for agencies, of course. 00:41:43.416 --> 00:41:46.659 But it's hard to imagine how that will 00:41:46.679 --> 00:41:46.898 work. 00:41:46.938 --> 00:41:47.840 But for example, 00:41:47.940 --> 00:41:50.501 if an agency wants to get into Drupal, 00:41:51.882 --> 00:41:54.545 learning all that stuff, it's a high risk. 00:41:54.985 --> 00:41:56.246 So also with WebHaven, 00:41:56.266 --> 00:41:57.447 I want to lower that risk. 00:41:59.398 --> 00:42:01.480 I don't know if agencies, 00:42:02.141 --> 00:42:03.280 if that will be enough. 00:42:03.420 --> 00:42:05.121 So if an agency would be like, okay, 00:42:05.161 --> 00:42:06.643 Fonz, you have Webhaven, 00:42:06.983 --> 00:42:10.344 but we also want to hire you for 00:42:10.405 --> 00:42:12.005 consulting and to get us going. 00:42:12.646 --> 00:42:14.045 I'm also open for that. 00:42:14.266 --> 00:42:18.027 I don't know if agencies would like that. 00:42:18.347 --> 00:42:18.789 And again, 00:42:20.108 --> 00:42:21.570 On those experiences, 00:42:21.769 --> 00:42:24.172 I could maybe make new video content, 00:42:24.813 --> 00:42:26.773 but I see it as a product. 00:42:27.193 --> 00:42:27.974 But in the beginning, 00:42:28.034 --> 00:42:30.737 if people want me to work on it, 00:42:30.797 --> 00:42:32.358 we can talk about it. 00:42:32.518 --> 00:42:34.920 And I would take all those learnings and 00:42:35.079 --> 00:42:37.222 invest them back in the product and grow 00:42:37.262 --> 00:42:38.282 from there. 00:42:38.362 --> 00:42:38.523 Yeah. 00:42:40.130 --> 00:42:45.074 Let's sort of close on Drupal. 00:42:45.155 --> 00:42:48.436 There's been a lot of work with the 00:42:48.956 --> 00:42:52.239 recent versions of Drupal and the ongoing 00:42:52.259 --> 00:42:53.440 sort of AI project, 00:42:53.480 --> 00:42:56.681 and you mentioned AI and Drupal a little 00:42:57.483 --> 00:42:58.704 bit ago. 00:42:59.164 --> 00:43:03.507 What are your thoughts about how 00:43:05.246 --> 00:43:09.469 Drupal is integrating AI into the project 00:43:09.509 --> 00:43:10.588 as a whole. 00:43:10.628 --> 00:43:13.170 What are the things that you see as 00:43:13.971 --> 00:43:15.733 things that are good things for it to 00:43:15.773 --> 00:43:16.333 explore? 00:43:17.253 --> 00:43:18.974 What things should it avoid? 00:43:19.014 --> 00:43:19.635 That sort of thing. 00:43:21.528 --> 00:43:24.269 um i think drupal it to me it 00:43:24.289 --> 00:43:26.250 looks like it's one of the front runners 00:43:26.429 --> 00:43:28.610 in the open source space and the ai 00:43:28.650 --> 00:43:31.351 adoption so that's really nice to see 00:43:31.570 --> 00:43:35.172 there's a lot of energy around ai it's 00:43:35.211 --> 00:43:38.172 a hot topic so that's that's really nice 00:43:38.773 --> 00:43:43.653 um it's going in all different ways and 00:43:45.364 --> 00:43:48.288 I'm not the person to say, uh, 00:43:48.327 --> 00:43:49.748 we have to contain it. 00:43:49.949 --> 00:43:51.670 I think it's a good time to just 00:43:51.731 --> 00:43:52.992 see where it goes now. 00:43:53.112 --> 00:43:55.353 And then on the different domains, 00:43:55.853 --> 00:43:58.056 there's enough people, uh, 00:43:58.076 --> 00:44:00.418 looking at it to see where we can 00:44:00.458 --> 00:44:00.858 get it. 00:44:01.639 --> 00:44:01.719 Uh, 00:44:01.739 --> 00:44:04.442 what I want to avoid is to have 00:44:04.481 --> 00:44:06.623 it, to become a slop slop factories. 00:44:07.043 --> 00:44:07.324 So. 00:44:09.210 --> 00:44:10.811 For example, for Webhaven, 00:44:11.030 --> 00:44:13.251 I'm already looking at a solution. 00:44:13.331 --> 00:44:16.713 If you would generate pages with AI to 00:44:16.753 --> 00:44:20.536 have an indicator that it says to grade 00:44:20.556 --> 00:44:22.277 the content, for example, 00:44:22.536 --> 00:44:23.597 this is pure slop. 00:44:24.016 --> 00:44:26.858 And then if people start working on it, 00:44:28.320 --> 00:44:30.139 that they see that they are improving it 00:44:30.740 --> 00:44:32.722 to maybe add gamification. 00:44:34.322 --> 00:44:36.282 So I don't want it to replace 00:44:38.626 --> 00:44:42.068 The creativity of people, for example, 00:44:42.268 --> 00:44:44.610 content, uh, people, marketeers, 00:44:46.471 --> 00:44:48.672 they have to use the tools. 00:44:48.731 --> 00:44:50.753 They have to get an Olympic minimum and 00:44:50.813 --> 00:44:51.773 do their thing with it. 00:44:51.934 --> 00:44:53.454 And it has to be enjoyable. 00:44:54.315 --> 00:44:56.876 Um, and to me, you know, 00:44:57.516 --> 00:44:59.556 it would be a bad thing if that 00:44:59.577 --> 00:45:01.398 would all disappear and it would be all 00:45:01.458 --> 00:45:03.778 automatically generated because the 00:45:03.798 --> 00:45:06.981 quality probably won't be as good. 00:45:09.065 --> 00:45:10.556 So that's something that I'm thinking a 00:45:10.597 --> 00:45:11.061 lot about. 00:45:11.706 --> 00:45:13.907 A lot of people talk about Drupal 00:45:14.007 --> 00:45:17.188 specifically like the reason or propose 00:45:17.228 --> 00:45:19.949 the reason why it's sort of leading this 00:45:19.989 --> 00:45:23.668 sort of AI development integration thing. 00:45:24.610 --> 00:45:25.989 And I know Dries has definitely said this 00:45:26.050 --> 00:45:28.230 is because sort of like the way Drupal 00:45:28.250 --> 00:45:31.871 was built fundamentally supports the way 00:45:31.891 --> 00:45:34.012 that AI approaches things and looks at 00:45:34.052 --> 00:45:34.431 things. 00:45:35.672 --> 00:45:37.731 Can you like speak on that a little 00:45:37.751 --> 00:45:40.032 bit or like is that something that you 00:45:40.152 --> 00:45:40.612 also see? 00:45:42.088 --> 00:45:44.548 Uh, yeah, it's, it's a lot of, uh, 00:45:44.568 --> 00:45:46.048 it's an article that I read and that 00:45:46.108 --> 00:45:47.610 I thought about a lot. 00:45:47.630 --> 00:45:50.170 Uh, and it's true, 00:45:50.391 --> 00:45:53.072 but I think it's totally by accident that 00:45:53.112 --> 00:45:53.871 it's this way. 00:45:54.112 --> 00:45:54.271 Yeah. 00:45:54.552 --> 00:45:54.751 Uh, 00:45:54.793 --> 00:45:59.753 so was their skill involved in getting 00:45:59.793 --> 00:46:00.715 into this position? 00:46:01.014 --> 00:46:01.434 Yeah. 00:46:01.514 --> 00:46:03.496 Of course skilled people made Drupal, 00:46:03.536 --> 00:46:06.416 but it's also luck, I think, 00:46:07.036 --> 00:46:07.217 but 00:46:08.646 --> 00:46:09.788 What you say is true. 00:46:11.268 --> 00:46:13.789 All the rest, the recipes are there. 00:46:13.969 --> 00:46:18.512 And that's also, I was on a point. 00:46:18.713 --> 00:46:19.153 Should I, 00:46:20.014 --> 00:46:21.875 I left the agency where I worked to 00:46:21.894 --> 00:46:22.536 Drupal agency. 00:46:22.996 --> 00:46:24.996 Should I stay in the Drupal community? 00:46:25.157 --> 00:46:26.597 Is it time for something new? 00:46:27.079 --> 00:46:28.259 Is the Drupal gonna die? 00:46:28.679 --> 00:46:29.480 And I was like, 00:46:29.840 --> 00:46:31.681 the more that I read about it and 00:46:33.083 --> 00:46:35.244 I stepped away from it, uh, 00:46:36.393 --> 00:46:36.793 look to it. 00:46:36.833 --> 00:46:37.815 And then I was like, okay, 00:46:37.855 --> 00:46:40.456 but there's a huge opportunity now. 00:46:40.496 --> 00:46:44.440 And if this works, it, it will, 00:46:44.701 --> 00:46:47.322 the story maybe only starts now. 00:46:47.864 --> 00:46:48.164 Yeah. 00:46:48.224 --> 00:46:49.364 So I will see. 00:46:50.646 --> 00:46:51.487 Yeah, I have my, 00:46:51.686 --> 00:46:52.646 my sort of hot take. 00:46:52.666 --> 00:46:53.628 I've been thinking about this a lot 00:46:53.668 --> 00:46:54.668 because I come from a WordPress 00:46:54.708 --> 00:46:55.208 background. 00:46:55.849 --> 00:46:56.088 Um, 00:46:56.789 --> 00:46:59.110 and I've been thinking a lot about like 00:46:59.911 --> 00:47:03.813 the personalities of the founders of these 00:47:03.853 --> 00:47:04.693 two projects. 00:47:04.873 --> 00:47:05.134 Right. 00:47:05.253 --> 00:47:06.275 And like, and, 00:47:06.695 --> 00:47:09.117 and the backgrounds of them and how that 00:47:09.317 --> 00:47:12.038 impacts the way that the projects have 00:47:12.077 --> 00:47:13.739 been built sort of fundamentally over 00:47:13.778 --> 00:47:14.280 time. 00:47:14.400 --> 00:47:14.860 And, and, 00:47:15.599 --> 00:47:17.842 and Dries comes from a computer science 00:47:17.862 --> 00:47:18.262 background. 00:47:18.715 --> 00:47:21.378 Like he did a dissertation in JavaScript 00:47:21.458 --> 00:47:23.240 or Java, not JavaScript, Java. 00:47:23.541 --> 00:47:27.326 Like he obviously approaches things from a 00:47:27.425 --> 00:47:29.449 very analytical computer science 00:47:29.588 --> 00:47:30.250 perspective. 00:47:31.726 --> 00:47:33.527 Matt Mullenweg did not. 00:47:34.248 --> 00:47:36.550 He came to WordPress when he was sixteen 00:47:36.610 --> 00:47:38.331 and taught himself programming, 00:47:39.311 --> 00:47:42.434 so it becomes more of an organic evolution 00:47:42.474 --> 00:47:44.355 over time, whereas this is like, no, 00:47:44.375 --> 00:47:45.356 we're building it from a very 00:47:45.376 --> 00:47:45.655 structured... 00:47:45.675 --> 00:47:46.856 And there's pros and cons to both of 00:47:46.876 --> 00:47:47.996 those approaches, right? 00:47:48.416 --> 00:47:49.958 Drupal, fundamentally, 00:47:49.998 --> 00:47:51.239 because it's coming from this computer 00:47:51.259 --> 00:47:52.360 science background, 00:47:52.860 --> 00:47:55.000 They're like each version of Drupal up 00:47:55.059 --> 00:47:58.041 until eight was like a whole new code 00:47:58.061 --> 00:47:59.681 base that had to be like important You 00:47:59.701 --> 00:48:02.302 know like so and that that creates and 00:48:02.342 --> 00:48:03.822 that's the reason why there's this like 00:48:03.902 --> 00:48:05.782 seven to eight or seven to modern Drupal 00:48:05.842 --> 00:48:08.543 gap is because the each version was just 00:48:08.663 --> 00:48:11.764 a really big lift Whereas WordPress 00:48:11.784 --> 00:48:15.043 because it began and grew organically It 00:48:15.083 --> 00:48:17.005 doesn't have that it always like tried to 00:48:17.025 --> 00:48:19.525 be backwards compatible and 00:48:19.849 --> 00:48:21.731 So I do think that there is something 00:48:21.811 --> 00:48:23.893 there about like the structure, 00:48:23.913 --> 00:48:26.114 because if you're approaching things from 00:48:28.076 --> 00:48:30.237 the way that I guess a computer would 00:48:30.617 --> 00:48:32.318 work and think about things from the 00:48:32.378 --> 00:48:35.581 start, it sort of just follows that, 00:48:35.840 --> 00:48:36.300 oh yeah, 00:48:36.380 --> 00:48:38.141 a computer could pick up and learn from 00:48:38.181 --> 00:48:42.806 that and be able to like make assumptions. 00:48:42.885 --> 00:48:43.565 Yeah, totally. 00:48:44.286 --> 00:48:47.708 I think you're spot on with that analysis. 00:48:49.250 --> 00:48:49.429 Well, 00:48:49.831 --> 00:48:51.894 thank you so much Fonz for coming on. 00:48:52.757 --> 00:48:54.679 Where can people find you on the internet? 00:48:54.699 --> 00:48:56.083 Where can they learn more about Webhaven? 00:48:58.123 --> 00:49:00.724 I have a personal website, fonsvandam.com. 00:49:01.184 --> 00:49:02.585 You can go to webhaven.io. 00:49:02.766 --> 00:49:05.969 You also can get notified there when 00:49:06.009 --> 00:49:07.168 WebHaven launches. 00:49:08.050 --> 00:49:09.431 You can find me on LinkedIn. 00:49:10.371 --> 00:49:13.052 And sometimes I also share some of the 00:49:13.092 --> 00:49:14.333 stuff I'm working on on X. 00:49:14.574 --> 00:49:16.835 And both when you type my name, 00:49:16.856 --> 00:49:18.056 Fons Van Damme, you'll find me. 00:49:19.016 --> 00:49:20.697 People can always reach out, 00:49:20.938 --> 00:49:22.760 watch the demo, ask questions. 00:49:23.239 --> 00:49:25.862 I love to interact about WebHaven or 00:49:25.902 --> 00:49:26.222 Drupal. 00:49:27.568 --> 00:49:28.590 Well, thank you again, Fonz, 00:49:28.610 --> 00:49:29.132 for coming on. 00:49:29.653 --> 00:49:31.577 Thank everyone who may be watching this or 00:49:31.599 --> 00:49:33.121 listening to this in the future. 00:49:33.903 --> 00:49:36.891 And we'll see you on the internet. 00:49:36.951 --> 00:49:37.291 Thanks.