WEBVTT 00:00:04.338 --> 00:00:05.778 Welcome back to Community & Code. 00:00:06.320 --> 00:00:07.660 I'm your host, Chris Reynolds. 00:00:08.480 --> 00:00:10.583 My guest today has an origin story that 00:00:10.622 --> 00:00:11.124 starts with, 00:00:11.263 --> 00:00:13.164 I wasn't trying to do this and ends 00:00:13.185 --> 00:00:14.926 with six hundred people across fifty 00:00:14.946 --> 00:00:15.407 countries. 00:00:16.027 --> 00:00:17.969 Jill Binder is a public speaking coach for 00:00:18.028 --> 00:00:19.931 tech folks based in Vancouver, BC. 00:00:20.370 --> 00:00:20.911 And before that, 00:00:20.931 --> 00:00:22.812 she spent five years as the founder and 00:00:22.853 --> 00:00:25.775 lead of the WordPress Diversity Speaker 00:00:25.835 --> 00:00:26.696 Training Initiative, 00:00:27.157 --> 00:00:29.138 a program she built inside the WordPress 00:00:29.158 --> 00:00:31.359 community to get more underrepresented 00:00:31.399 --> 00:00:33.182 voices onto conference stages. 00:00:33.902 --> 00:00:35.963 We talk about how the diversity training 00:00:36.024 --> 00:00:38.106 initiative got its start and how it became 00:00:38.246 --> 00:00:39.287 a global program. 00:00:39.868 --> 00:00:41.329 And we talk about speaking and speaker 00:00:41.350 --> 00:00:42.271 selection in general, 00:00:42.691 --> 00:00:44.472 like why blind speaker selection doesn't 00:00:44.493 --> 00:00:46.075 necessarily solve the problem you think it 00:00:46.094 --> 00:00:49.037 does and oftentimes introduces new issues. 00:00:49.078 --> 00:00:50.118 For anyone who's ever thought, 00:00:50.600 --> 00:00:51.780 I don't have anything worth saying, 00:00:52.341 --> 00:00:53.923 Jill would disagree with you. 00:00:53.982 --> 00:00:54.584 Let's get into it. 00:01:14.697 --> 00:01:16.278 Welcome to Community & Code, 00:01:16.298 --> 00:01:18.080 the podcast where we talk to the human 00:01:18.119 --> 00:01:20.120 beings behind the commits. 00:01:20.561 --> 00:01:22.862 I am here today with Jill Binder. 00:01:23.503 --> 00:01:26.644 Jill has been active in the open source 00:01:26.724 --> 00:01:28.225 and particularly the WordPress community 00:01:28.244 --> 00:01:29.445 for a very long time, 00:01:30.085 --> 00:01:31.407 doing all sorts of stuff, 00:01:31.486 --> 00:01:35.068 but most recently, diversity stuff, 00:01:35.088 --> 00:01:37.710 but also sort of just helping people 00:01:38.349 --> 00:01:42.393 speak better at things and doing and 00:01:42.433 --> 00:01:43.834 representing underrepresented groups. 00:01:43.893 --> 00:01:46.074 And I am thrilled to have you on. 00:01:47.276 --> 00:01:47.955 Welcome, Jill. 00:01:47.995 --> 00:01:50.077 Tell us about yourself. 00:01:50.117 --> 00:01:50.517 Hi, Chris. 00:01:51.297 --> 00:01:52.519 Thanks so much for that intro. 00:01:52.618 --> 00:01:53.720 And thanks so much for having me on 00:01:53.739 --> 00:01:54.139 the show. 00:01:54.199 --> 00:01:54.961 This is so fun. 00:01:56.202 --> 00:01:57.141 For five years, 00:01:57.342 --> 00:01:59.523 I was the founder and lead of the 00:01:59.983 --> 00:02:03.005 hashtag WP diversity speaker training 00:02:03.046 --> 00:02:05.166 group in the WordPress community space. 00:02:05.287 --> 00:02:07.709 And I did that till twenty twenty three. 00:02:08.610 --> 00:02:10.310 early, something like that. 00:02:11.492 --> 00:02:12.932 And after taking a break, 00:02:13.132 --> 00:02:15.455 I'm now doing public speaking and 00:02:15.514 --> 00:02:18.597 confidence coaching for all voices in 00:02:18.636 --> 00:02:19.858 tech. 00:02:19.897 --> 00:02:21.258 Public speaking is just such a 00:02:21.359 --> 00:02:22.439 transformative thing, 00:02:22.799 --> 00:02:25.121 but I know so much about diversity and 00:02:25.162 --> 00:02:26.883 I still incorporate it in all the work 00:02:26.922 --> 00:02:27.644 that I do now. 00:02:27.764 --> 00:02:28.885 And I'm happy to chat about 00:02:29.505 --> 00:02:30.785 any of those topics. 00:02:31.725 --> 00:02:34.127 And just in case we do talk a 00:02:34.147 --> 00:02:35.326 lot about the diversity part, 00:02:35.446 --> 00:02:37.168 I just want to say a little thing 00:02:37.248 --> 00:02:39.728 that I like to say before having those 00:02:39.749 --> 00:02:40.528 conversations, 00:02:41.368 --> 00:02:43.730 which is I'm a white woman in Canada. 00:02:44.410 --> 00:02:46.891 I can't possibly know everything that 00:02:46.951 --> 00:02:48.031 you're all going through. 00:02:48.651 --> 00:02:50.853 i also tend to be socially awkward and 00:02:51.513 --> 00:02:55.014 um terms change but also i trip over 00:02:55.073 --> 00:02:57.133 words and sometimes accidentally say 00:02:57.174 --> 00:03:01.094 things that um are not great and i 00:03:01.154 --> 00:03:02.876 want people i want everybody to know that 00:03:03.016 --> 00:03:06.177 i try very very very hard to say 00:03:06.196 --> 00:03:08.317 the right things i don't always get it 00:03:08.356 --> 00:03:10.498 right um my heart is in the right 00:03:10.537 --> 00:03:13.599 place and i uh i want to do 00:03:13.659 --> 00:03:15.219 right and if any if i say anything 00:03:15.758 --> 00:03:17.802 out there that bothers anybody and if you 00:03:17.841 --> 00:03:19.764 have some bandwidth to spend on me, 00:03:20.406 --> 00:03:22.569 please reach out and chat with me about 00:03:22.609 --> 00:03:22.688 it. 00:03:24.943 --> 00:03:26.343 I appreciate that a lot. 00:03:27.465 --> 00:03:30.586 We met in person recently at WordCamp 00:03:30.627 --> 00:03:33.009 Canada, and I went to your talk. 00:03:33.528 --> 00:03:37.032 I've known who you are for a long 00:03:37.071 --> 00:03:37.372 time, 00:03:38.011 --> 00:03:40.334 a lot of that being the WP Diversity 00:03:40.373 --> 00:03:41.254 work that you were doing. 00:03:41.295 --> 00:03:43.276 But I think that your name was floating 00:03:43.295 --> 00:03:44.317 around even before that, 00:03:45.378 --> 00:03:47.019 just in the round. 00:03:47.098 --> 00:03:49.200 So I was excited to go to your 00:03:49.219 --> 00:03:49.540 talk, 00:03:49.640 --> 00:03:51.222 and then you gave a very similar sort 00:03:51.241 --> 00:03:51.801 of introduction. 00:03:51.821 --> 00:03:53.563 And I just like framing... 00:03:54.824 --> 00:03:57.886 everything from a foundation like just 00:03:57.926 --> 00:03:59.668 like from the get-go like I just I 00:03:59.707 --> 00:04:01.569 just feel like that's just I don't know 00:04:01.689 --> 00:04:05.372 it helps me contextualize the space that I 00:04:05.432 --> 00:04:08.896 occupy in the world and the space that 00:04:08.915 --> 00:04:10.136 I hope to occupy in the world but 00:04:10.196 --> 00:04:12.539 also like I'm a white man living in 00:04:12.598 --> 00:04:14.120 America and I have a whole lot of 00:04:14.180 --> 00:04:15.760 things that go along with that baggage 00:04:15.801 --> 00:04:19.384 right and right 00:04:20.904 --> 00:04:22.045 I love that word, baggage. 00:04:22.085 --> 00:04:22.665 That's awesome. 00:04:23.126 --> 00:04:24.885 Yeah, yeah. 00:04:25.105 --> 00:04:27.586 There's much to be had. 00:04:27.627 --> 00:04:28.706 There's a lot of things that go along 00:04:28.727 --> 00:04:29.187 with that, 00:04:29.247 --> 00:04:30.288 and there's a lot of things that go 00:04:30.327 --> 00:04:33.049 along with just not having been in the 00:04:33.088 --> 00:04:36.450 place to experience many things that 00:04:36.490 --> 00:04:39.430 people who don't look like me or occupy 00:04:39.450 --> 00:04:41.151 the same physical spaces that I do 00:04:42.110 --> 00:04:43.752 or don't have access to those physical 00:04:43.771 --> 00:04:44.271 spaces. 00:04:45.551 --> 00:04:49.353 It's really grounding to start from the 00:04:49.372 --> 00:04:50.452 get-go with that thing. 00:04:51.052 --> 00:04:53.713 Glad to have you on, 00:04:53.933 --> 00:04:55.414 glad to have you talking about that stuff. 00:04:57.434 --> 00:04:58.675 Why don't we start off, I guess, 00:04:59.055 --> 00:05:02.776 with the talk that you gave at WordCamp 00:05:02.815 --> 00:05:03.235 Canada, 00:05:03.276 --> 00:05:05.356 since that is what brought us together. 00:05:05.956 --> 00:05:07.196 For anyone who was not there, 00:05:07.236 --> 00:05:09.217 which is probably a lot of people were 00:05:09.277 --> 00:05:10.497 not at WordCamp Canada, 00:05:10.938 --> 00:05:14.503 What was your talk about and what brought 00:05:14.523 --> 00:05:16.688 you to that specific topic? 00:05:17.670 --> 00:05:18.330 Ooh, yeah. 00:05:19.070 --> 00:05:20.111 Well, so the title, 00:05:20.532 --> 00:05:22.853 my fancy long title that I workshopped for 00:05:22.892 --> 00:05:25.974 a very long time was From Canada to 00:05:26.015 --> 00:05:26.575 the World, 00:05:27.035 --> 00:05:29.317 Ten Lessons from Working with Fifty 00:05:29.336 --> 00:05:29.877 Countries. 00:05:30.958 --> 00:05:35.321 And I came to that topic because the 00:05:35.341 --> 00:05:38.382 WordCamp Canada team came to me asking if 00:05:38.523 --> 00:05:40.603 I would give a diversity-related talk. 00:05:41.144 --> 00:05:43.684 and I haven't officially been in the 00:05:43.704 --> 00:05:45.024 diversity space for a bit. 00:05:45.146 --> 00:05:46.846 I needed to take a break and I 00:05:46.886 --> 00:05:47.725 thought, well, 00:05:47.766 --> 00:05:50.286 what would be fun for current Jill? 00:05:50.326 --> 00:05:51.807 What would I love to talk about? 00:05:52.187 --> 00:05:55.848 So I did a little slight angle on 00:05:55.908 --> 00:05:59.329 it and instead of talking directly about 00:05:59.389 --> 00:05:59.910 diversity, 00:06:00.091 --> 00:06:02.511 I talked about what it was like to 00:06:02.552 --> 00:06:05.031 take a little workshop that a few of 00:06:05.091 --> 00:06:07.093 us created in Vancouver for public 00:06:07.132 --> 00:06:09.353 speaking for our underrepresented voices 00:06:10.033 --> 00:06:13.314 And what happens when I was asked to 00:06:13.374 --> 00:06:15.716 scale that to all over the world, 00:06:16.437 --> 00:06:17.976 at the time, pre-COVID, 00:06:18.076 --> 00:06:20.237 there were eight hundred cities with 00:06:20.317 --> 00:06:20.797 meetups. 00:06:21.598 --> 00:06:23.418 And I was asked to try to reach 00:06:23.579 --> 00:06:25.019 all of them with that work. 00:06:25.360 --> 00:06:25.999 In the end, 00:06:26.781 --> 00:06:28.980 I was able to reach fifty countries over 00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:29.661 five years, 00:06:29.761 --> 00:06:31.781 which is an incredible feat and was a 00:06:31.841 --> 00:06:33.002 lot of work to do. 00:06:34.283 --> 00:06:36.624 And so the talk was the little things 00:06:36.663 --> 00:06:37.684 that I learned, you know, 00:06:37.704 --> 00:06:40.566 the little and a lot of it was 00:06:41.266 --> 00:06:43.226 tangentially diversity related because 00:06:43.286 --> 00:06:44.867 that was my lens the whole time. 00:06:44.968 --> 00:06:47.749 The whole time I was doing these workshops 00:06:47.829 --> 00:06:49.009 for underrepresented groups. 00:06:49.509 --> 00:06:51.810 So there's a little bit of cultural stuff, 00:06:51.831 --> 00:06:52.591 a little bit of like. 00:06:54.833 --> 00:06:57.596 Working with women in Latin America and 00:06:58.877 --> 00:07:02.600 language issues, speaking with, you know, 00:07:02.721 --> 00:07:06.184 India and Japan and the parts that people 00:07:06.264 --> 00:07:08.506 really resonated with in this talk were 00:07:08.865 --> 00:07:09.466 interesting. 00:07:11.221 --> 00:07:12.942 talking about what diversity means in 00:07:13.002 --> 00:07:16.165 places like the Philippines and the black 00:07:16.264 --> 00:07:17.966 culture in Africa, 00:07:18.346 --> 00:07:20.047 and then how the black culture in Africa 00:07:20.088 --> 00:07:21.728 was different from the black culture in 00:07:21.769 --> 00:07:24.831 America, because in Africa, let's say, 00:07:25.851 --> 00:07:27.533 and in the Philippines, 00:07:29.213 --> 00:07:32.836 the men of color are over-represent, 00:07:33.476 --> 00:07:34.016 what I like to say, 00:07:34.036 --> 00:07:36.559 the well-represented folks of the regions. 00:07:37.238 --> 00:07:38.600 And, um, 00:07:38.660 --> 00:07:40.321 and then they are asked to come speak 00:07:40.362 --> 00:07:42.083 on the global stages because they're 00:07:42.262 --> 00:07:44.785 underrepresented because, you know, 00:07:44.884 --> 00:07:48.047 in tech, we typically have, uh, 00:07:48.108 --> 00:07:50.149 I like to say straight, cis, young, 00:07:50.230 --> 00:07:52.011 white men, um, not, 00:07:52.151 --> 00:07:53.091 not necessarily always cis, 00:07:53.112 --> 00:07:55.894 not necessarily always straight, but, um, 00:07:55.913 --> 00:07:55.954 uh, 00:07:57.935 --> 00:07:58.975 Not necessarily young, 00:07:59.636 --> 00:08:01.838 but just kind of as a global, 00:08:02.338 --> 00:08:05.360 just to give a snapshot of when I 00:08:05.540 --> 00:08:05.879 started. 00:08:05.899 --> 00:08:07.521 If you ask ChatGPT what a tech worker 00:08:07.620 --> 00:08:09.502 looks like, you would probably get... 00:08:09.821 --> 00:08:10.643 Probably get that. 00:08:11.862 --> 00:08:13.444 And so then they're asked to speak on 00:08:13.483 --> 00:08:14.305 these global stages, 00:08:14.405 --> 00:08:16.725 and it feels very disorienting to come 00:08:16.785 --> 00:08:17.786 from a culture where... 00:08:18.326 --> 00:08:20.288 one is well represented and then walk into 00:08:20.307 --> 00:08:22.209 a space where they're underrepresented and 00:08:22.468 --> 00:08:24.430 it's dizzying and it's disorienting. 00:08:25.189 --> 00:08:28.451 So talking about that, whereas in America, 00:08:28.550 --> 00:08:30.091 Black men of America are very 00:08:30.331 --> 00:08:32.012 underrepresented and very, 00:08:32.992 --> 00:08:34.613 and this was the most personal part of 00:08:34.673 --> 00:08:36.555 my whole talk and the one that people 00:08:36.595 --> 00:08:38.214 resonated with the most and appreciated 00:08:38.254 --> 00:08:38.615 the most. 00:08:40.216 --> 00:08:41.076 It was basically, 00:08:43.057 --> 00:08:44.578 they live in a culture of, 00:08:44.898 --> 00:08:44.997 and 00:08:45.863 --> 00:08:47.204 Again, I'm a white woman in America, 00:08:48.584 --> 00:08:49.105 in Canada, 00:08:49.405 --> 00:08:51.064 trying to talk about black men in America, 00:08:51.204 --> 00:08:53.305 but I have, from my experiences, 00:08:53.384 --> 00:08:55.506 and also I've checked this with people to 00:08:55.545 --> 00:08:56.446 make sure it was correct, 00:08:57.305 --> 00:09:01.726 there's a culture of fear because they 00:09:01.766 --> 00:09:04.007 don't know who to trust, 00:09:04.167 --> 00:09:05.286 they don't know who they can open up 00:09:05.326 --> 00:09:05.567 to. 00:09:05.987 --> 00:09:08.387 My workshops were a very vulnerable space, 00:09:09.387 --> 00:09:11.588 digging into why we're afraid of public 00:09:11.629 --> 00:09:13.588 speaking and starting to use our voices. 00:09:14.269 --> 00:09:15.870 is a is a big deal and they 00:09:15.889 --> 00:09:18.110 didn't know if they could trust me um 00:09:18.211 --> 00:09:19.891 and all kinds of issues came up out 00:09:19.911 --> 00:09:21.934 of that and I had to apologize a 00:09:21.973 --> 00:09:23.634 bunch of times and I gave a whole 00:09:23.714 --> 00:09:27.917 script for how to apologize sincerely um 00:09:27.976 --> 00:09:30.559 etc so it was those kinds of things 00:09:30.619 --> 00:09:34.381 that uh were unexpected and constant it 00:09:34.401 --> 00:09:37.141 was there was always things coming up 00:09:37.543 --> 00:09:39.403 which is part of why I developed that 00:09:39.644 --> 00:09:39.923 script 00:09:40.184 --> 00:09:42.444 with the help of some fellow diversity 00:09:42.624 --> 00:09:46.085 experts because things were coming up and 00:09:46.106 --> 00:09:47.465 people were leaving upset, 00:09:48.746 --> 00:09:50.627 especially in twenty twenty when diversity 00:09:50.666 --> 00:09:52.347 became a bigger issue. 00:09:52.808 --> 00:09:54.627 When the George Floyd incident happened 00:09:54.688 --> 00:09:56.588 and it became top of everybody's minds, 00:09:57.549 --> 00:10:01.630 people were more sensitive at the time. 00:10:02.218 --> 00:10:04.340 absolutely understandably. 00:10:04.420 --> 00:10:07.084 But then tanking it out on me, 00:10:07.123 --> 00:10:08.204 the white woman in Canada, 00:10:08.224 --> 00:10:09.827 who's trying to do well in the world. 00:10:10.808 --> 00:10:14.112 And so making sure people knew them coming 00:10:14.151 --> 00:10:16.174 from a good place made a really big 00:10:16.194 --> 00:10:18.357 difference in people's experiences, 00:10:18.377 --> 00:10:19.318 because I care more about 00:10:20.979 --> 00:10:24.503 them than anybody being angry with me um 00:10:24.564 --> 00:10:27.527 but that's yeah so that's that's a little 00:10:27.568 --> 00:10:29.229 bit about that speech and a few of 00:10:29.250 --> 00:10:31.973 the highlights and the little bit about 00:10:32.012 --> 00:10:33.734 that yeah i 00:10:35.073 --> 00:10:36.534 As I was listening to you, 00:10:36.574 --> 00:10:39.155 I remember in the before times, 00:10:39.194 --> 00:10:44.997 before COVID, well, once upon a time, 00:10:45.198 --> 00:10:46.738 there was a really good traveling 00:10:46.779 --> 00:10:48.199 conference called AlterConf. 00:10:49.800 --> 00:10:54.423 And AlterConf was specifically by and for 00:10:54.824 --> 00:10:57.344 predominantly underrepresented groups in 00:10:57.425 --> 00:10:58.165 tech. 00:10:59.345 --> 00:11:01.007 And I went to one in Portland. 00:11:03.267 --> 00:11:05.510 And so there is like a lot of 00:11:05.569 --> 00:11:06.430 female speakers, 00:11:06.470 --> 00:11:10.094 a lot of trans and non-binary speakers and 00:11:10.555 --> 00:11:11.295 all sorts of things. 00:11:11.335 --> 00:11:13.478 And basically the stories were the common 00:11:13.517 --> 00:11:15.118 theme was this is what it's like to 00:11:15.180 --> 00:11:17.661 exist as myself in a space that is 00:11:17.702 --> 00:11:20.284 dominated by cis straight white men, 00:11:20.545 --> 00:11:20.964 basically. 00:11:20.984 --> 00:11:22.526 Yeah, yeah. 00:11:23.987 --> 00:11:26.268 And it was heavy and it was it 00:11:26.289 --> 00:11:26.930 was amazing. 00:11:26.969 --> 00:11:27.349 It was really, 00:11:27.390 --> 00:11:31.194 really eye opening for me as a cis 00:11:31.213 --> 00:11:33.457 white man in tech. 00:11:34.798 --> 00:11:38.941 And it made me really want to be 00:11:39.322 --> 00:11:44.247 part of whatever a solution or an answer 00:11:44.406 --> 00:11:46.770 or a response to that 00:11:48.111 --> 00:11:52.633 pain that discomfort uh was um and uh 00:11:54.234 --> 00:11:56.396 I think I can't remember who it might 00:11:56.415 --> 00:11:58.478 have been uh it might have been Andrew 00:11:58.517 --> 00:12:04.822 Norcross who at at loopconf one year gave 00:12:04.842 --> 00:12:07.804 a talk that I went to in which 00:12:07.983 --> 00:12:10.564 he said use your powers of privilege for 00:12:10.625 --> 00:12:14.548 good um and I was like 00:12:15.271 --> 00:12:17.219 Yeah, yeah, I can do that. 00:12:17.781 --> 00:12:19.507 I can't be the... Like, I can... 00:12:20.854 --> 00:12:21.736 I can try, 00:12:21.896 --> 00:12:23.337 I can try to be more visible. 00:12:23.416 --> 00:12:24.958 I can try to be represent, like, 00:12:24.978 --> 00:12:27.800 you know, like be the representation, 00:12:28.140 --> 00:12:29.601 like use my voice as much as I 00:12:29.641 --> 00:12:31.801 can in the spaces that I have access 00:12:31.842 --> 00:12:36.005 to, to raise awareness or whatever. 00:12:36.064 --> 00:12:36.385 Like I, 00:12:36.425 --> 00:12:37.585 that is the thing that I can do. 00:12:38.226 --> 00:12:40.068 Um, and then, so, 00:12:40.127 --> 00:12:41.308 so what I was thinking about as you're, 00:12:41.569 --> 00:12:43.010 as you're talking is I gave a talk 00:12:43.229 --> 00:12:45.950 at Open West, uh, I guess it was, 00:12:46.151 --> 00:12:47.291 had to have been like, 00:12:47.311 --> 00:12:50.374 or something or . 00:12:49.074 --> 00:12:49.213 Um, 00:12:50.333 --> 00:12:52.114 In response to all of these ideas, 00:12:52.194 --> 00:12:54.016 things floating in my brain called being a 00:12:54.055 --> 00:12:54.796 better ally. 00:12:55.276 --> 00:12:57.539 And it was basically what it was. 00:12:58.059 --> 00:13:01.822 What was ironic at the time was one 00:13:01.842 --> 00:13:03.424 of the things I was taught, I mean, 00:13:03.524 --> 00:13:06.947 like I was also very self-aware that I'm 00:13:06.967 --> 00:13:09.367 a male speaker talking about allyship at a 00:13:09.429 --> 00:13:11.329 tech conference with an audience of 00:13:11.430 --> 00:13:14.332 primarily male attendees and speakers. 00:13:14.492 --> 00:13:15.853 And I also noticed, 00:13:15.873 --> 00:13:17.614 and I told the organizers that I was 00:13:17.635 --> 00:13:18.675 going to do this when I did it, 00:13:19.035 --> 00:13:22.237 that the speaker selection also tended 00:13:22.799 --> 00:13:24.760 very heavily white male. 00:13:24.780 --> 00:13:25.901 And I'm like, look, 00:13:25.960 --> 00:13:27.661 I'm going to call you out on this 00:13:29.503 --> 00:13:31.964 because it's obvious and it's topical to 00:13:32.005 --> 00:13:32.325 my thing. 00:13:32.345 --> 00:13:33.786 It's not because I think you're doing a 00:13:33.827 --> 00:13:34.306 bad job. 00:13:34.887 --> 00:13:38.309 it's because this is an evidence that this 00:13:38.349 --> 00:13:39.070 is an issue, right? 00:13:39.450 --> 00:13:40.572 And one of the things, 00:13:41.252 --> 00:13:43.412 like their process for selecting speakers 00:13:43.433 --> 00:13:44.993 was it was a blind speaker selection 00:13:45.034 --> 00:13:45.494 process, 00:13:46.935 --> 00:13:50.897 which to me also just underlines why blind 00:13:50.938 --> 00:13:54.000 speaker selection is not always the best 00:13:54.160 --> 00:13:57.181 way of doing, like it feels egalitarian, 00:13:58.002 --> 00:14:01.025 but the result you get is just gonna 00:14:01.125 --> 00:14:01.984 reinforce those things. 00:14:04.142 --> 00:14:05.544 I don't know if I would give that 00:14:05.584 --> 00:14:08.265 talk like this year. 00:14:08.464 --> 00:14:11.425 And I didn't even think about like how 00:14:11.465 --> 00:14:13.226 things have changed over time. 00:14:13.305 --> 00:14:17.808 But in hearing you were working on that 00:14:17.867 --> 00:14:18.428 through that time, 00:14:18.867 --> 00:14:23.349 what things have you observed change in 00:14:23.449 --> 00:14:25.790 sort of like, I don't know, feeling, 00:14:25.851 --> 00:14:26.550 sentiment, 00:14:27.271 --> 00:14:29.872 vulnerability over like over that period 00:14:29.891 --> 00:14:31.173 of time, like sort of post-COVID? 00:14:33.126 --> 00:14:33.646 Oh, yeah. 00:14:33.766 --> 00:14:34.867 Big, big question. 00:14:35.809 --> 00:14:36.390 Good question. 00:14:36.589 --> 00:14:37.851 Took a lot of time to get there. 00:14:37.891 --> 00:14:38.712 I had to ramp up. 00:14:38.752 --> 00:14:42.335 And if we can come back later to 00:14:42.376 --> 00:14:44.878 the thing about why blind selection, 00:14:45.258 --> 00:14:46.820 like people don't know why blind selection 00:14:46.840 --> 00:14:47.220 doesn't work, 00:14:47.241 --> 00:14:49.402 I would love to chat more about that. 00:14:49.444 --> 00:14:50.785 But let me answer this question. 00:14:51.825 --> 00:14:52.065 So... 00:14:55.652 --> 00:15:01.656 There were two sides to what changed from 00:15:01.695 --> 00:15:02.516 what I could observe. 00:15:03.396 --> 00:15:04.816 One, which was amazing, 00:15:05.016 --> 00:15:07.058 was more people cared. 00:15:07.958 --> 00:15:09.258 In the before times, 00:15:10.299 --> 00:15:13.059 I was alone a lot trying to do 00:15:13.099 --> 00:15:13.680 this work. 00:15:13.920 --> 00:15:15.460 I had a bit of help here and 00:15:15.481 --> 00:15:15.781 there. 00:15:16.862 --> 00:15:19.223 And then when that happened, 00:15:19.762 --> 00:15:21.044 people suddenly cared. 00:15:21.483 --> 00:15:24.145 And I got a lot more volunteers involved. 00:15:24.385 --> 00:15:27.767 for my initiative, which was amazing, 00:15:27.828 --> 00:15:30.349 and a lot more people caring about it, 00:15:30.430 --> 00:15:31.830 and a lot more people wanting to 00:15:31.891 --> 00:15:33.713 contribute opinions and ideas, 00:15:33.833 --> 00:15:35.253 which was also amazing. 00:15:38.916 --> 00:15:41.338 Although I was a bit burned out and 00:15:41.378 --> 00:15:43.579 had a hard time wrangling the ideas and 00:15:43.700 --> 00:15:44.680 contributions, and... 00:15:46.983 --> 00:15:47.763 Me now, 00:15:47.824 --> 00:15:50.045 who has rested up and is well-resourced, 00:15:50.146 --> 00:15:51.627 I know how I would handle that now. 00:15:51.707 --> 00:15:53.708 But in the past, it was a lot. 00:15:54.689 --> 00:15:56.611 And then from the side of the people 00:15:56.631 --> 00:15:57.811 who are underrepresented, 00:16:02.114 --> 00:16:03.896 I'm partially underrepresented myself. 00:16:03.916 --> 00:16:05.478 So I'm partially speaking myself. 00:16:06.117 --> 00:16:06.838 I'm female. 00:16:06.939 --> 00:16:08.059 I'm neurodivergent. 00:16:08.280 --> 00:16:09.340 I have some physical issues. 00:16:09.878 --> 00:16:12.342 uh, not quite disabilities, 00:16:12.401 --> 00:16:14.484 but not quite full abilities either. 00:16:14.945 --> 00:16:16.928 I'm currently walking with walking sticks 00:16:17.007 --> 00:16:17.910 to be able to walk. 00:16:18.670 --> 00:16:20.632 Um, for example, 00:16:20.752 --> 00:16:22.114 so I can't do stairs and things like 00:16:22.155 --> 00:16:22.334 that. 00:16:23.095 --> 00:16:24.838 Um, uh, 00:16:26.890 --> 00:16:29.191 But from the people at the time, 00:16:30.892 --> 00:16:33.794 people were very understandably on high 00:16:33.834 --> 00:16:34.875 alert all the time. 00:16:35.375 --> 00:16:36.915 Everybody was in a little bit of a 00:16:36.976 --> 00:16:37.757 trauma state. 00:16:43.883 --> 00:16:49.947 The hardest time for me was that time 00:16:50.587 --> 00:16:54.088 I had people being very upset with me 00:16:54.248 --> 00:16:57.210 over things that they may or may not 00:16:57.251 --> 00:16:59.031 have been upset about other times, 00:16:59.311 --> 00:17:01.433 or maybe it would always bother them, 00:17:01.473 --> 00:17:02.992 but maybe they wouldn't have spoken up as 00:17:03.032 --> 00:17:03.294 much. 00:17:03.434 --> 00:17:07.015 And so I had long conversations of people 00:17:07.035 --> 00:17:07.776 being upset with me. 00:17:08.516 --> 00:17:11.839 And I did my best to listen, 00:17:12.361 --> 00:17:15.544 hold space when needed, apologize. 00:17:15.564 --> 00:17:17.246 And I learned a lot about apologizing, 00:17:17.406 --> 00:17:18.627 which is something I talked about in the 00:17:18.666 --> 00:17:18.987 speech. 00:17:20.569 --> 00:17:23.973 And mostly it was letting people feel 00:17:24.032 --> 00:17:24.314 heard. 00:17:25.174 --> 00:17:28.377 Um, one of my diversity, uh, 00:17:28.477 --> 00:17:31.400 peers pointed out that people were just 00:17:31.520 --> 00:17:32.641 upset at the system. 00:17:32.861 --> 00:17:34.603 And at that time I was representing the 00:17:34.642 --> 00:17:38.425 system and I was an outlet to, uh, 00:17:38.585 --> 00:17:39.327 um, talk to, 00:17:39.646 --> 00:17:42.469 and I'm very glad that I was, um, 00:17:42.609 --> 00:17:42.969 I just, 00:17:43.290 --> 00:17:45.072 my nervous system was also shot and it 00:17:45.092 --> 00:17:46.233 was hard at the time. 00:17:47.093 --> 00:17:49.215 Um, but, uh, 00:17:50.069 --> 00:17:51.531 After I started... 00:17:51.611 --> 00:17:53.072 So that's when I developed the script. 00:17:53.252 --> 00:17:56.694 And then I didn't have people have those 00:17:56.915 --> 00:17:57.574 long, angry, 00:17:58.116 --> 00:18:00.117 upset conversations with me anymore after 00:18:00.156 --> 00:18:00.357 that. 00:18:00.838 --> 00:18:02.358 If anybody had anything to say, 00:18:02.378 --> 00:18:05.241 they came to me gently with corrections, 00:18:05.340 --> 00:18:08.583 which didn't happen much after I started 00:18:08.642 --> 00:18:09.743 saying that script. 00:18:11.324 --> 00:18:12.325 And again, 00:18:12.425 --> 00:18:14.627 it's not about me and my experience. 00:18:14.767 --> 00:18:15.487 It was really... 00:18:16.728 --> 00:18:19.310 the important thing to me was helping 00:18:19.749 --> 00:18:20.110 people. 00:18:21.150 --> 00:18:24.670 I cared more about other people and their 00:18:24.730 --> 00:18:25.391 experiences. 00:18:26.572 --> 00:18:31.093 It's not about me having a hard time. 00:18:31.212 --> 00:18:32.333 I don't want people to come to a 00:18:32.393 --> 00:18:33.693 workshop that is 00:18:35.834 --> 00:18:36.715 In the pre-times, 00:18:36.735 --> 00:18:38.855 it was very transformative for people and 00:18:38.875 --> 00:18:40.816 would absolutely change their lives. 00:18:40.977 --> 00:18:42.516 I don't want them to come to an 00:18:42.536 --> 00:18:44.497 amazing experience and have a terrible 00:18:44.557 --> 00:18:44.918 time. 00:18:45.398 --> 00:18:48.278 But because everybody was on high alert, 00:18:48.359 --> 00:18:51.321 there were more terrible times. 00:18:53.240 --> 00:18:54.302 One of the things that I... 00:18:54.941 --> 00:18:56.323 Didn't know. 00:18:56.442 --> 00:18:56.584 Yeah. 00:18:56.824 --> 00:18:59.707 So there were little things that happened 00:18:59.747 --> 00:19:00.167 as well. 00:19:00.247 --> 00:19:03.430 Like I mentioned in my speech about the 00:19:03.469 --> 00:19:05.731 color of the skin on the posters in 00:19:05.872 --> 00:19:07.433 India when we had when we were holding 00:19:07.453 --> 00:19:08.935 workshops specifically for India. 00:19:09.315 --> 00:19:10.336 And it wasn't just India. 00:19:10.376 --> 00:19:11.678 There were other regions as well. 00:19:11.737 --> 00:19:13.620 But I just gave one example story. 00:19:14.439 --> 00:19:16.361 And that story was basically, 00:19:17.081 --> 00:19:19.322 we had the people of the region pick 00:19:20.022 --> 00:19:21.721 the poster and pick the person. 00:19:22.122 --> 00:19:23.543 And it was a light-skinned person. 00:19:24.442 --> 00:19:27.103 And everybody in India seemed fine with 00:19:27.163 --> 00:19:27.284 it. 00:19:27.464 --> 00:19:29.505 But people in other parts of the world 00:19:29.924 --> 00:19:33.706 were very triggered and very upset by it 00:19:33.746 --> 00:19:35.187 being a light-skinned person. 00:19:35.967 --> 00:19:37.086 Yeah. 00:19:37.187 --> 00:19:38.388 Yeah, well, there's whole... I mean, 00:19:38.428 --> 00:19:38.688 there's... 00:19:40.141 --> 00:19:41.803 there's I don't know how many hundreds of 00:19:41.843 --> 00:19:45.746 years of history to explain why in India 00:19:46.366 --> 00:19:49.769 that is the one that gets picked versus 00:19:49.789 --> 00:19:51.331 an option with darker skin. 00:19:52.151 --> 00:19:54.914 There's, I mean, 00:19:55.854 --> 00:19:57.956 We have a cultural framework in the United 00:19:57.996 --> 00:19:59.736 States that is based on a very particular 00:19:59.916 --> 00:20:01.937 history and like where our biases and 00:20:01.957 --> 00:20:02.477 cultural, 00:20:02.657 --> 00:20:04.536 like things that we identify with or think 00:20:04.576 --> 00:20:05.997 is normal or whatever comes from, 00:20:06.438 --> 00:20:08.138 like they have a very similar, 00:20:08.178 --> 00:20:10.478 but different, like, I mean, it's, yes, 00:20:10.518 --> 00:20:12.038 there's, there's a whole, 00:20:12.199 --> 00:20:15.680 a whole host of things that could be 00:20:15.719 --> 00:20:17.200 said about, about that sort of stuff. 00:20:17.861 --> 00:20:18.841 Um, for sure. 00:20:19.541 --> 00:20:21.461 Um, what, um, 00:20:23.060 --> 00:20:28.344 What brought you into this sort of 00:20:29.145 --> 00:20:33.049 diversity or even just speaking type work? 00:20:33.289 --> 00:20:34.551 What was the thing that brought you into 00:20:34.571 --> 00:20:35.191 that to begin with? 00:20:36.370 --> 00:20:37.190 Yes, good. 00:20:37.291 --> 00:20:38.072 I love this story. 00:20:39.932 --> 00:20:43.196 So I was never a diversity person. 00:20:43.335 --> 00:20:44.678 It just sort of happened. 00:20:44.918 --> 00:20:47.080 I wrote an article a couple years into 00:20:47.100 --> 00:20:49.342 it called How I Became an Accidental 00:20:49.441 --> 00:20:53.025 Activist in Vancouver. 00:20:53.205 --> 00:20:55.767 So I was one of the main WordCamp 00:20:55.827 --> 00:20:56.949 co-organizers from a 00:20:59.391 --> 00:21:00.430 And for people who don't know what 00:21:00.612 --> 00:21:01.372 WordCamp is, 00:21:02.671 --> 00:21:05.372 I'm assuming a lot of people listening to 00:21:05.392 --> 00:21:05.893 your show know. 00:21:05.933 --> 00:21:06.613 But just in case, 00:21:07.014 --> 00:21:10.555 it is basically our one to two day 00:21:10.855 --> 00:21:12.335 conference. 00:21:12.516 --> 00:21:13.657 Most cities around the world will have a 00:21:13.776 --> 00:21:18.419 one to two day conference done by and 00:21:18.498 --> 00:21:19.578 for the community. 00:21:19.919 --> 00:21:21.380 And it's all WordPress topics. 00:21:22.381 --> 00:21:24.822 anything tangentially related to WordPress 00:21:24.921 --> 00:21:27.724 can be talked about at these events. 00:21:28.904 --> 00:21:35.369 And we had close to, I think, 00:21:35.449 --> 00:21:38.410 fifty-six applications and only seven were 00:21:38.450 --> 00:21:39.151 from women. 00:21:41.092 --> 00:21:42.732 And in the end, 00:21:43.714 --> 00:21:46.035 we only had four out of twenty-eight 00:21:46.074 --> 00:21:48.316 speakers who were women at our event. 00:21:49.356 --> 00:21:50.037 And when I say women, 00:21:50.097 --> 00:21:51.599 I mean people who identify as women 00:21:51.718 --> 00:21:53.539 somewhere all of the time. 00:21:54.459 --> 00:21:56.440 And we were not happy about that. 00:21:56.541 --> 00:21:58.901 And the audience was not happy about that. 00:21:59.322 --> 00:22:02.603 They talked to us privately about it. 00:22:02.784 --> 00:22:04.465 And they also called us out publicly. 00:22:04.584 --> 00:22:06.065 They wrote blog posts about it. 00:22:07.246 --> 00:22:08.467 Absolutely understandably, 00:22:08.687 --> 00:22:09.368 we did our best. 00:22:09.807 --> 00:22:12.089 We accepted six and then two dropped out 00:22:12.109 --> 00:22:13.350 for family emergencies. 00:22:13.969 --> 00:22:14.610 And then in the end, 00:22:14.630 --> 00:22:15.831 it was the small, 00:22:19.231 --> 00:22:22.412 And so I was chatting with people about 00:22:22.472 --> 00:22:23.132 this issue. 00:22:23.494 --> 00:22:26.795 I went to WordCamp US to ask other 00:22:26.814 --> 00:22:27.755 meetup organizers, 00:22:27.894 --> 00:22:30.176 how do you get more women and other 00:22:30.256 --> 00:22:30.895 underrepresented? 00:22:31.295 --> 00:22:32.855 And I also, while I'm here, 00:22:32.895 --> 00:22:35.296 I'll define when I say underrepresented 00:22:35.376 --> 00:22:39.218 and diversity, I mean gender, caste, 00:22:39.398 --> 00:22:43.680 class, physical ability, sexuality, race, 00:22:43.759 --> 00:22:44.340 ethnicity, 00:22:45.759 --> 00:22:47.260 uh, et cetera, age. 00:22:47.700 --> 00:22:49.082 That's something that when I forget to say 00:22:49.201 --> 00:22:49.401 age, 00:22:49.481 --> 00:22:50.843 I always have people coming up to me 00:22:50.942 --> 00:22:52.003 asking about the age thing. 00:22:52.263 --> 00:22:52.783 Absolutely. 00:22:52.984 --> 00:22:53.544 Age also. 00:22:54.363 --> 00:22:57.205 Um, and so I, I, we, 00:22:57.225 --> 00:22:58.845 there was this meetup brunch and I asked 00:22:58.926 --> 00:22:59.285 all of them, 00:22:59.345 --> 00:23:01.747 how do you get more people asking, 00:23:02.106 --> 00:23:03.208 you know, applying to speak? 00:23:03.287 --> 00:23:04.949 And they're like, you got seven. 00:23:05.488 --> 00:23:06.649 We got zero. 00:23:06.669 --> 00:23:07.090 Yeah. 00:23:08.709 --> 00:23:10.591 So then I learned this was a bigger 00:23:10.730 --> 00:23:12.592 issue all around. 00:23:12.772 --> 00:23:15.152 And I started doing more effort. 00:23:15.412 --> 00:23:17.574 I started asking people directly instead 00:23:17.613 --> 00:23:19.295 of just waiting for people to show up. 00:23:19.634 --> 00:23:21.375 And I got the same two answers over 00:23:21.416 --> 00:23:22.276 and over, which is, 00:23:22.796 --> 00:23:24.118 what would I even talk about? 00:23:24.537 --> 00:23:26.339 And I'm not an expert in anything. 00:23:27.518 --> 00:23:28.420 And I learned. 00:23:29.019 --> 00:23:30.561 So those were the two big things. 00:23:30.700 --> 00:23:32.042 I chatted with some people and somebody 00:23:32.062 --> 00:23:36.424 gave me an idea to tackle the topic 00:23:36.485 --> 00:23:38.266 question with doing a brainstorming 00:23:38.345 --> 00:23:38.766 session. 00:23:39.345 --> 00:23:40.407 And from there, 00:23:40.606 --> 00:23:43.768 a group of women and I created our 00:23:43.828 --> 00:23:44.910 five hour workshop, 00:23:44.989 --> 00:23:46.910 which is the foundation for what I've been 00:23:46.930 --> 00:23:47.911 doing ever since. 00:23:48.532 --> 00:23:51.152 and in this workshop we first cover 00:23:51.593 --> 00:23:54.193 imposter syndrome the myths of who it is 00:23:54.514 --> 00:23:58.035 person speaking up on stage especially um 00:23:59.276 --> 00:24:02.336 uh the well-represented people in a 00:24:02.477 --> 00:24:03.957 community when they know a little bit 00:24:03.977 --> 00:24:05.997 about something will be like yeah i can 00:24:06.158 --> 00:24:07.678 apply for that job or i can talk 00:24:07.718 --> 00:24:09.498 on that topic and the rest of us 00:24:09.538 --> 00:24:11.139 when we only know a little bit we're 00:24:11.159 --> 00:24:12.499 like well i don't know enough 00:24:13.039 --> 00:24:14.460 But we actually know the same amount. 00:24:15.101 --> 00:24:16.681 So helping people reframe that, 00:24:17.343 --> 00:24:19.443 helping people do more story-based talks. 00:24:21.805 --> 00:24:23.486 When we started developing this workshop, 00:24:24.526 --> 00:24:26.487 WordPress community got a wind that we 00:24:26.507 --> 00:24:28.528 were doing this and they asked can we 00:24:29.548 --> 00:24:31.049 get people to do more story-based 00:24:31.070 --> 00:24:31.570 workshops. 00:24:31.990 --> 00:24:34.332 People will walk away from a day of 00:24:34.812 --> 00:24:35.912 conference talks 00:24:36.872 --> 00:24:38.392 after a whole bunch of how-to talks, 00:24:38.573 --> 00:24:39.913 won't remember the details, 00:24:40.093 --> 00:24:42.453 but stories are engaging, 00:24:42.893 --> 00:24:43.994 people remember them. 00:24:44.113 --> 00:24:46.674 And so I've been really honing in over 00:24:46.695 --> 00:24:48.975 the years how to help people create great 00:24:49.015 --> 00:24:49.455 stories. 00:24:50.874 --> 00:24:53.956 And so then Make WordPress said, great, 00:24:54.555 --> 00:24:55.916 you've had these amazing results. 00:24:56.216 --> 00:24:57.897 Other cities started running their own 00:24:57.937 --> 00:24:58.757 versions of it. 00:24:59.096 --> 00:24:59.856 And they asked, 00:24:59.897 --> 00:25:03.678 could I lead a team to make it 00:25:04.817 --> 00:25:05.378 not just women, 00:25:05.837 --> 00:25:07.699 all diversity and all around the world. 00:25:07.899 --> 00:25:10.760 And that is, that is how that began. 00:25:10.861 --> 00:25:12.401 It started with our own local little 00:25:12.441 --> 00:25:13.501 problem in Vancouver. 00:25:14.642 --> 00:25:17.904 We developed a solution that worked and, 00:25:17.924 --> 00:25:19.946 uh, and, oh yeah. 00:25:20.006 --> 00:25:20.506 And we, 00:25:20.666 --> 00:25:22.026 we started running that workshop for 00:25:22.066 --> 00:25:22.546 ourselves. 00:25:22.606 --> 00:25:23.567 And in the next year we had 00:25:23.708 --> 00:25:26.151 three times the number of applications 00:25:26.450 --> 00:25:27.792 from people who identify as women, 00:25:28.192 --> 00:25:29.494 and it was a developer edition, 00:25:29.593 --> 00:25:30.776 so that's an even bigger deal. 00:25:31.917 --> 00:25:33.679 And then we had fully fifty percent 00:25:34.640 --> 00:25:37.222 representation in our next few WordCamps 00:25:38.103 --> 00:25:38.383 as well. 00:25:39.496 --> 00:25:42.158 That's how that all started. 00:25:42.698 --> 00:25:42.978 Yeah. 00:25:43.659 --> 00:25:44.038 Yeah, well, 00:25:44.078 --> 00:25:46.401 that overlaps with the thing that we 00:25:47.441 --> 00:25:51.064 pinned earlier with speaker selection and 00:25:51.104 --> 00:25:53.325 the blind speaker selection. 00:25:54.227 --> 00:25:56.528 I was involved in WordCamp Salt Lake City 00:25:56.869 --> 00:25:57.989 for many, many, many years. 00:25:59.151 --> 00:26:01.872 I was a co-organizer for two years, 00:26:01.892 --> 00:26:03.274 and then I was lead organizer for two 00:26:03.294 --> 00:26:03.474 years. 00:26:03.494 --> 00:26:06.276 So I basically was running it and running 00:26:07.596 --> 00:26:09.097 to a greater or lesser extent for 00:26:09.138 --> 00:26:10.058 essentially four years. 00:26:11.739 --> 00:26:12.880 And we had, I mean, 00:26:13.341 --> 00:26:14.220 the exact same problem. 00:26:14.260 --> 00:26:14.981 We have, like, 00:26:15.102 --> 00:26:17.083 the applications come in and for a long 00:26:17.142 --> 00:26:17.702 time it was like, well, 00:26:17.743 --> 00:26:18.663 we're just going to run with what we 00:26:18.703 --> 00:26:19.224 get, right? 00:26:19.264 --> 00:26:20.485 Like, that's what you do. 00:26:22.526 --> 00:26:27.349 When I was not satisfied with that answer, 00:26:27.649 --> 00:26:27.669 I... 00:26:28.910 --> 00:26:29.910 I think it was actually, 00:26:29.990 --> 00:26:31.273 I think it was probably like a similar 00:26:31.313 --> 00:26:32.353 conversation because I think that might 00:26:32.373 --> 00:26:34.957 have been about the same time as there 00:26:34.977 --> 00:26:36.758 is a WordCamp San Francisco. 00:26:36.779 --> 00:26:38.180 It was before WordCamp US was a thing. 00:26:38.220 --> 00:26:39.662 There was a WordCamp San Francisco where 00:26:39.682 --> 00:26:40.863 there was an open, well, 00:26:40.923 --> 00:26:42.206 it was an invite community summit. 00:26:42.226 --> 00:26:43.607 And I happened to be invited because I 00:26:43.628 --> 00:26:44.709 was part of the docs team at the 00:26:44.728 --> 00:26:44.968 time. 00:26:45.989 --> 00:26:46.910 So I got to go to the community 00:26:46.930 --> 00:26:47.250 summit, 00:26:47.512 --> 00:26:48.471 which meant that I got to have 00:26:48.512 --> 00:26:49.953 conversations with other people that are 00:26:50.034 --> 00:26:51.515 WordCamp organizers, which wasn't, 00:26:51.755 --> 00:26:51.995 you know, 00:26:52.134 --> 00:26:53.335 ostensibly the reason I was there. 00:26:55.118 --> 00:26:58.320 And I asked that question and the answer 00:26:58.340 --> 00:26:59.720 that I got was, well, 00:26:59.740 --> 00:27:02.063 have you tried asking? 00:27:02.103 --> 00:27:04.144 Like, wow, I can ask people questions. 00:27:06.548 --> 00:27:08.189 which then so the next year i went 00:27:08.209 --> 00:27:10.009 to when i when we were organizing was 00:27:10.029 --> 00:27:11.710 like okay i'm gonna like pick a bunch 00:27:11.750 --> 00:27:13.532 of people that i think would would uh 00:27:14.132 --> 00:27:16.593 bring value to the people that come to 00:27:16.732 --> 00:27:19.294 our event uh that are maybe not local 00:27:19.353 --> 00:27:20.775 but people that i know that i have 00:27:20.795 --> 00:27:24.776 at least some like six degrees of kevin 00:27:24.795 --> 00:27:28.797 bacon connection to um yeah yeah that and 00:27:28.817 --> 00:27:31.218 just just ask just ask would you like 00:27:31.238 --> 00:27:32.318 to come to salt lake city to give 00:27:32.339 --> 00:27:34.060 a presentation i don't really care what 00:27:34.080 --> 00:27:35.220 you want to talk about we can talk 00:27:35.240 --> 00:27:36.141 about whatever you want just 00:27:37.211 --> 00:27:39.192 I'd love to have you here." 00:27:40.834 --> 00:27:41.314 Weirdly, 00:27:41.353 --> 00:27:43.795 when you ask people if they want to 00:27:43.834 --> 00:27:44.696 speak at your event, 00:27:45.355 --> 00:27:46.375 a lot of them say yes. 00:27:46.395 --> 00:27:47.056 That's awesome. 00:27:47.076 --> 00:27:49.678 I love that you did that. 00:27:49.757 --> 00:27:49.898 Yeah, 00:27:49.958 --> 00:27:53.699 and we were able to course correct that. 00:27:53.719 --> 00:27:54.979 I think the first year when I did 00:27:55.019 --> 00:27:56.460 that, we had, I think, 00:27:56.581 --> 00:27:58.022 about fifty percent. 00:27:58.062 --> 00:27:58.322 I mean, 00:27:58.602 --> 00:28:00.902 if you're considering a gender binary as 00:28:00.922 --> 00:28:03.663 the rubric by which you're organizing 00:28:03.965 --> 00:28:05.344 who's on what side of the line, 00:28:05.364 --> 00:28:06.585 we had about fifty percent. 00:28:08.586 --> 00:28:10.688 And that continued. 00:28:10.708 --> 00:28:12.568 And that was, yeah. 00:28:13.509 --> 00:28:15.010 And it goes to the point, 00:28:15.230 --> 00:28:16.651 and because I had that experience, 00:28:16.971 --> 00:28:21.834 that was why I was not super enthusiastic 00:28:21.935 --> 00:28:24.876 about the blind speaker selection of this 00:28:24.977 --> 00:28:26.016 one event that I was speaking at. 00:28:26.056 --> 00:28:28.699 Because I felt like I knew what a 00:28:28.758 --> 00:28:29.640 solution could be. 00:28:31.381 --> 00:28:32.262 And, like, I get it. 00:28:32.461 --> 00:28:35.685 Like, I understand, like, it seems fair. 00:28:35.725 --> 00:28:37.065 But I think that you can do that 00:28:37.105 --> 00:28:39.468 and also do the other thing, too. 00:28:39.527 --> 00:28:41.249 And then get better results. 00:28:41.350 --> 00:28:41.529 Yeah. 00:28:43.027 --> 00:28:44.189 I think I want to speak a little 00:28:44.228 --> 00:28:48.191 bit about why it matters that there's 00:28:48.451 --> 00:28:50.132 representation and also a little bit more 00:28:50.152 --> 00:28:51.214 about the blind selection. 00:28:51.593 --> 00:28:51.754 Yeah. 00:28:51.913 --> 00:28:54.135 Um, so, um, you know, 00:28:54.155 --> 00:28:55.436 when I first started in this work, 00:28:55.535 --> 00:28:58.198 there was a lot of talk out there 00:28:58.398 --> 00:29:01.680 of, um, it should be based on talent. 00:29:01.821 --> 00:29:03.562 It should be a good mix of topics. 00:29:04.141 --> 00:29:07.103 Um, it shouldn't be who's speaking. 00:29:07.123 --> 00:29:08.745 The representation shouldn't matter. 00:29:09.285 --> 00:29:09.686 And, um, 00:29:10.507 --> 00:29:11.027 I argue, 00:29:11.188 --> 00:29:12.969 after learning a lot about this over the 00:29:12.989 --> 00:29:16.975 years, different perspectives, 00:29:17.015 --> 00:29:18.335 people with different history, 00:29:18.737 --> 00:29:22.460 people with unique viewpoints because of 00:29:22.582 --> 00:29:24.043 having different representation, 00:29:24.403 --> 00:29:26.045 the representation of what I mentioned 00:29:26.085 --> 00:29:27.587 before in all the different forms. 00:29:29.189 --> 00:29:31.430 It makes for a more interesting 00:29:31.730 --> 00:29:32.490 conference. 00:29:34.472 --> 00:29:35.313 It does so many things. 00:29:35.333 --> 00:29:36.214 It makes for a more interesting 00:29:36.254 --> 00:29:36.794 conference. 00:29:37.255 --> 00:29:40.397 It helps the audience feel included and 00:29:40.417 --> 00:29:43.859 represented because if people are as lucky 00:29:43.939 --> 00:29:45.279 to have the kind of audiences that we 00:29:45.320 --> 00:29:45.580 had, 00:29:45.740 --> 00:29:47.562 we had a big mix in our audience, 00:29:47.741 --> 00:29:49.662 but not on stage before I started this 00:29:49.702 --> 00:29:49.882 work. 00:29:50.923 --> 00:29:51.103 Um, 00:29:51.884 --> 00:29:54.087 it boosts ticket sales because a lot of 00:29:54.128 --> 00:29:55.189 people will look for, 00:29:55.528 --> 00:29:56.851 is there a mix of speakers? 00:29:57.592 --> 00:29:59.693 Um, and since. 00:30:00.955 --> 00:30:01.936 Twenty-twenty ish. 00:30:02.596 --> 00:30:04.139 Um, maybe even a bit before, 00:30:04.199 --> 00:30:07.503 but especially after people will boycott, 00:30:07.543 --> 00:30:10.946 people will say this is all young, young, 00:30:10.986 --> 00:30:12.188 middle-aged white men. 00:30:14.225 --> 00:30:14.766 I will not go. 00:30:15.650 --> 00:30:18.639 And so it's important even just to... 00:30:26.991 --> 00:30:29.632 To be a better event and for people 00:30:30.372 --> 00:30:32.495 to agree that it's a better event. 00:30:32.674 --> 00:30:35.355 I guess that's one way of saying it. 00:30:35.395 --> 00:30:36.796 Then blind selection, 00:30:37.576 --> 00:30:38.817 what happens with that? 00:30:39.218 --> 00:30:40.459 There's a few things that happens. 00:30:41.078 --> 00:30:43.301 One is if the people haven't been on 00:30:43.321 --> 00:30:44.341 the speaker circuit, 00:30:44.660 --> 00:30:48.362 they may not write as good of a 00:30:48.423 --> 00:30:50.064 speaker application. 00:30:50.103 --> 00:30:52.026 Application is the title and the 00:30:52.065 --> 00:30:52.545 description. 00:30:53.105 --> 00:30:54.547 And in a blind selection, 00:30:54.567 --> 00:30:56.248 that's the only thing that people read. 00:30:56.870 --> 00:31:00.373 And people of other countries and 00:31:01.475 --> 00:31:02.895 cultures, ethnicities, 00:31:02.996 --> 00:31:04.938 all the different things might not write 00:31:05.159 --> 00:31:08.461 English well and get unselected. 00:31:08.802 --> 00:31:11.104 Now, in my work, I say, 00:31:11.285 --> 00:31:14.649 I tell people, you know, make sure, 00:31:15.189 --> 00:31:15.590 you know, 00:31:15.850 --> 00:31:17.592 it's sad that people don't get selected 00:31:17.632 --> 00:31:18.853 based on how it is written, 00:31:18.974 --> 00:31:20.516 but that is the reality. 00:31:21.437 --> 00:31:22.899 Get somebody to help you write it 00:31:23.278 --> 00:31:23.759 properly. 00:31:24.080 --> 00:31:25.721 And now there's all kinds of tools to 00:31:25.762 --> 00:31:26.823 help people with their grammar. 00:31:27.824 --> 00:31:33.066 um uh and um blind selection does remove 00:31:33.126 --> 00:31:35.988 the names so you're so they are less 00:31:36.028 --> 00:31:38.830 likely to pick the popular people but the 00:31:38.870 --> 00:31:41.991 fact is we can often recognize oh this 00:31:42.052 --> 00:31:43.892 is a talk from this person i'd want 00:31:43.932 --> 00:31:49.815 this person there um and um and and 00:31:49.936 --> 00:31:50.816 also you know 00:31:52.902 --> 00:31:56.663 even if all the talks are truly anonymous, 00:31:56.683 --> 00:31:58.604 you can't tell who the popular people are 00:31:59.225 --> 00:32:03.206 and, um, all written at the same quality, 00:32:04.006 --> 00:32:06.487 you still just want a mix of voice. 00:32:06.526 --> 00:32:08.247 It's for all the reasons I said before, 00:32:08.287 --> 00:32:09.628 it's a better conference when there's a 00:32:09.728 --> 00:32:10.708 mix of voices. 00:32:11.209 --> 00:32:12.048 Right. 00:32:12.068 --> 00:32:16.130 I remember back there, you know, 00:32:16.150 --> 00:32:17.730 I haven't been on Twitter and probably 00:32:18.131 --> 00:32:19.030 well since Elon bought it, 00:32:19.091 --> 00:32:19.190 but 00:32:19.691 --> 00:32:21.994 Um, once upon a time I was, and, 00:32:22.334 --> 00:32:22.853 um, 00:32:22.933 --> 00:32:25.535 I think it was Anil Dash who at 00:32:25.615 --> 00:32:28.438 some point decided that because he had 00:32:28.478 --> 00:32:29.920 gotten so big on Twitter and he has 00:32:29.959 --> 00:32:32.141 so many followers that he was going to 00:32:32.240 --> 00:32:35.943 intentionally stop, uh, like reposting, 00:32:36.624 --> 00:32:36.924 um, 00:32:36.985 --> 00:32:41.567 things by male users and just repost 00:32:41.607 --> 00:32:44.650 things by, you know, female or non-binary, 00:32:44.670 --> 00:32:45.551 like things that, 00:32:45.591 --> 00:32:47.773 because so much of the 00:32:48.768 --> 00:32:51.410 this discourse and dialogue was already 00:32:51.470 --> 00:32:54.152 from like the male perspective even if the 00:32:54.353 --> 00:32:56.695 content was exactly the same he was going 00:32:56.735 --> 00:32:58.356 to retweet the thing that was posted by 00:32:58.376 --> 00:33:01.798 somebody who is female um because just to 00:33:01.899 --> 00:33:04.701 elevate those voices and because and and 00:33:04.741 --> 00:33:07.703 because like the yeah the topic title 00:33:07.784 --> 00:33:09.064 could be exactly the same thing 00:33:09.685 --> 00:33:11.706 But the perspective that comes behind it, 00:33:12.206 --> 00:33:15.286 the lived experience that goes into the 00:33:15.427 --> 00:33:18.607 ideas is going to be by default different. 00:33:19.468 --> 00:33:19.988 Yeah. 00:33:20.089 --> 00:33:20.369 Yeah. 00:33:22.110 --> 00:33:23.449 And something to add on that, 00:33:24.529 --> 00:33:27.772 it is to our benefit to hear more 00:33:27.832 --> 00:33:28.812 lived experiences. 00:33:29.711 --> 00:33:31.412 There's all kinds of things that we're 00:33:31.452 --> 00:33:36.453 blind to from our own lived experience 00:33:36.714 --> 00:33:39.654 that are things that our users experience 00:33:39.814 --> 00:33:41.655 and we need to know that they're 00:33:41.696 --> 00:33:43.696 experiencing that. 00:33:45.437 --> 00:33:46.897 Hearing the different perspectives opens 00:33:46.937 --> 00:33:50.517 our eyes to more things as well as 00:33:51.817 --> 00:33:54.478 people's different experiences often bring 00:33:55.179 --> 00:33:57.479 cool innovations to things. 00:33:58.841 --> 00:34:03.005 For example, back in the wartime, a long, 00:34:03.045 --> 00:34:06.167 long time ago, they started creating, 00:34:06.607 --> 00:34:09.570 what was it? 00:34:09.630 --> 00:34:11.592 I think it was creating audiobooks for 00:34:11.632 --> 00:34:14.935 their veterans who couldn't read. 00:34:15.595 --> 00:34:18.097 And now podcasts are a thing. 00:34:18.118 --> 00:34:20.620 It was created originally for a certain 00:34:21.140 --> 00:34:23.062 segment, which became something that... 00:34:24.202 --> 00:34:25.745 changed, you know, 00:34:25.785 --> 00:34:27.085 made things better for everyone. 00:34:28.368 --> 00:34:29.349 And so, you know, 00:34:29.369 --> 00:34:31.190 there's all kinds of innovations that can 00:34:31.230 --> 00:34:33.313 happen when we when we're problem solving 00:34:33.372 --> 00:34:35.035 for somebody in particular, 00:34:35.295 --> 00:34:36.977 and then it can become something cool and 00:34:37.016 --> 00:34:38.037 mainstream for everybody. 00:34:39.239 --> 00:34:40.561 Yeah. 00:34:40.621 --> 00:34:41.262 Yeah, for sure. 00:34:41.302 --> 00:34:42.202 I mean, I think, you know, 00:34:42.243 --> 00:34:43.024 when I was in high school, 00:34:43.064 --> 00:34:44.344 we had books on tape and whatever, 00:34:44.384 --> 00:34:45.667 but that was like, 00:34:46.395 --> 00:34:49.498 was it books on tape yes yeah yeah 00:34:49.538 --> 00:34:51.841 but like books on tape like to start 00:34:52.160 --> 00:34:54.182 you think about like well obviously if you 00:34:54.222 --> 00:34:56.344 can't read a book because you are vision 00:34:56.404 --> 00:34:57.986 impaired then that is the the thing that 00:34:58.006 --> 00:35:01.630 but like yeah i i you process information 00:35:01.670 --> 00:35:03.151 differently by listening to a book being 00:35:03.190 --> 00:35:04.772 read to you than than you do by 00:35:04.891 --> 00:35:06.554 reading it with your eyeballs too and like 00:35:07.074 --> 00:35:09.375 you know there's so many reasons why you 00:35:09.395 --> 00:35:10.576 would choose to do the one thing over 00:35:10.596 --> 00:35:12.078 the other thing and and like you can 00:35:12.419 --> 00:35:13.720 read a lot more books if you listen 00:35:13.740 --> 00:35:15.421 to them when you're doing like making 00:35:15.441 --> 00:35:19.306 dinner like yeah um all sorts of sort 00:35:19.326 --> 00:35:22.029 of accidental uh serendipitous uh effects 00:35:22.089 --> 00:35:24.491 of of things that that started out being 00:35:24.531 --> 00:35:28.176 for like us sort of like for us 00:35:28.457 --> 00:35:29.977 accessibility sort of purposes yeah 00:35:30.984 --> 00:35:33.944 So talk about now you do sort of 00:35:34.024 --> 00:35:36.545 coaching for public speaking. 00:35:38.346 --> 00:35:40.006 Obviously that came out of your work from 00:35:40.147 --> 00:35:42.167 the WP Diversity thing, 00:35:42.248 --> 00:35:44.428 but talk about how that sort of evolved 00:35:44.589 --> 00:35:47.710 and what made you want to sort of 00:35:47.770 --> 00:35:48.589 focus in that. 00:35:50.281 --> 00:35:50.620 Yeah. 00:35:51.102 --> 00:35:54.605 So when I came back from my self-funded 00:35:55.326 --> 00:35:56.727 recovery sabbatical, 00:35:57.167 --> 00:35:58.768 I was looking at what can I do. 00:35:59.368 --> 00:36:02.451 And I still had some corporate clients on 00:36:02.471 --> 00:36:03.011 the side. 00:36:05.114 --> 00:36:06.274 Starting in twenty twenty, 00:36:07.736 --> 00:36:09.357 I had a couple of companies hire me 00:36:09.397 --> 00:36:11.000 to just do one on one coaching with 00:36:11.040 --> 00:36:13.582 their employees just to help them be 00:36:13.622 --> 00:36:14.422 better on stage. 00:36:15.062 --> 00:36:17.484 And I still had those clients. 00:36:17.585 --> 00:36:20.366 And when I came back to work, 00:36:20.667 --> 00:36:22.969 I really loved it a lot. 00:36:23.489 --> 00:36:27.131 And it still makes such a big difference. 00:36:27.152 --> 00:36:28.852 Like, you know, it... 00:36:30.634 --> 00:36:33.497 The diversity work is so meaningful, 00:36:33.837 --> 00:36:37.120 but I've found so much meaning in helping 00:36:37.341 --> 00:36:40.544 all voices because it's basically if 00:36:40.584 --> 00:36:42.645 somebody has a good experience on say a 00:36:42.705 --> 00:36:45.308 podcast or on stage, 00:36:45.629 --> 00:36:47.451 it helps them level up to their next 00:36:47.491 --> 00:36:47.870 self. 00:36:48.232 --> 00:36:50.314 People get so much confidence. 00:36:50.734 --> 00:36:54.397 People get career, um, uh, 00:36:55.966 --> 00:36:56.725 It helps their careers. 00:36:56.765 --> 00:37:00.207 I'll talk more about that in a second. 00:37:01.727 --> 00:37:03.667 Some people step into leadership roles 00:37:03.788 --> 00:37:04.527 after speaking. 00:37:05.087 --> 00:37:11.649 My whole stepping into being the founder 00:37:11.690 --> 00:37:15.011 and lead of the WP Diversity Training 00:37:15.531 --> 00:37:18.832 Initiative was right after I did a public 00:37:18.872 --> 00:37:21.252 speaking talk on how it was going with 00:37:21.292 --> 00:37:22.812 our workshop in Vancouver. 00:37:23.533 --> 00:37:29.614 That was at WordCamp Seattle. 00:37:30.853 --> 00:37:31.995 I've had so many stories, 00:37:32.594 --> 00:37:35.114 but there's one in particular that I 00:37:35.154 --> 00:37:36.995 witnessed that means so much to me. 00:37:37.855 --> 00:37:38.955 One of the people who went through our 00:37:38.975 --> 00:37:43.957 workshop in Vancouver got spotted by a 00:37:44.016 --> 00:37:46.116 local agency. 00:37:46.716 --> 00:37:48.596 They sought her out. 00:37:48.656 --> 00:37:49.016 They said, 00:37:49.178 --> 00:37:51.337 we need her specifically after seeing 00:37:51.357 --> 00:37:51.797 their talk. 00:37:52.658 --> 00:37:55.783 her talk and got her on board. 00:37:56.424 --> 00:37:58.585 She soon became their senior developer and 00:37:58.605 --> 00:37:59.506 then their team lead. 00:37:59.748 --> 00:38:01.850 And she was their first and only woman 00:38:01.890 --> 00:38:03.792 developer for a bunch of years. 00:38:03.852 --> 00:38:04.993 And then she brought some other women 00:38:05.013 --> 00:38:06.196 developers on board as well. 00:38:07.397 --> 00:38:07.957 And I've also, 00:38:08.056 --> 00:38:11.839 in my own experience and seeing it happen 00:38:11.859 --> 00:38:14.018 for so many people, people get job offers, 00:38:14.580 --> 00:38:17.181 people who are entrepreneurs get gigs. 00:38:18.681 --> 00:38:20.582 Before doing this public speaking coaching 00:38:20.922 --> 00:38:23.203 and before the diversity initiative, 00:38:23.703 --> 00:38:24.783 I was a web developer. 00:38:25.062 --> 00:38:26.484 And every time I got on stage, 00:38:26.623 --> 00:38:28.223 no matter how good or bad I was 00:38:28.283 --> 00:38:28.785 that day, 00:38:28.964 --> 00:38:29.964 I inevitably got people's attention. 00:38:29.964 --> 00:38:32.868 people asking to hire me to create their 00:38:32.888 --> 00:38:33.770 websites for them. 00:38:34.710 --> 00:38:37.033 It's just this visibility thing that makes 00:38:37.073 --> 00:38:38.736 a huge difference for people. 00:38:39.556 --> 00:38:42.761 And so the combination of the fact that 00:38:42.841 --> 00:38:45.904 I ran this workshop literally a hundred 00:38:45.944 --> 00:38:47.627 times over five years, 00:38:48.107 --> 00:38:49.587 reached six hundred people in fifty 00:38:49.607 --> 00:38:53.469 countries but also I have done a lot 00:38:53.509 --> 00:38:55.509 of public speaking myself before that so 00:38:55.529 --> 00:38:59.290 I'm just very good at it I started 00:38:59.390 --> 00:39:03.712 off as a performance poet for I was 00:39:03.852 --> 00:39:06.453 kind of tangentially in the slam scene for 00:39:06.553 --> 00:39:09.172 almost ten years and that's where I really 00:39:09.252 --> 00:39:12.933 learned how to do public speaking and then 00:39:13.094 --> 00:39:14.415 in the work world I started giving a 00:39:14.435 --> 00:39:15.515 lot of talks when I was a 00:39:16.094 --> 00:39:17.616 other kinds of coaches and then when I 00:39:17.636 --> 00:39:19.678 was doing web development and then I 00:39:19.719 --> 00:39:22.261 started speaking of meetups and word camps 00:39:22.281 --> 00:39:25.203 when I got into the WordPress space and 00:39:25.723 --> 00:39:31.308 I just I'm a very anxiety filled person 00:39:31.529 --> 00:39:33.491 and I've learned how to calm my own 00:39:33.571 --> 00:39:35.832 nerves and I'm able to help people calm 00:39:35.852 --> 00:39:37.194 their nerves and 00:39:38.035 --> 00:39:39.837 I have kind of a small presence in 00:39:39.877 --> 00:39:41.337 regular life, but on stage, 00:39:41.377 --> 00:39:43.219 I have a big stage presence and I'm 00:39:43.259 --> 00:39:44.819 able to teach people how to do that 00:39:44.899 --> 00:39:45.319 as well, 00:39:45.721 --> 00:39:48.643 no matter how small and introverted they 00:39:48.723 --> 00:39:49.843 are in regular life. 00:39:50.763 --> 00:39:52.404 And it's not about being something that 00:39:52.444 --> 00:39:52.844 we're not. 00:39:52.924 --> 00:39:54.125 It's about using our own. 00:39:54.766 --> 00:39:55.587 And if we're having a, 00:39:55.968 --> 00:39:57.549 if I'm very quiet and I have a 00:39:57.589 --> 00:39:59.890 quiet energy, lean into that, 00:40:00.009 --> 00:40:01.031 be quiet and 00:40:01.672 --> 00:40:02.411 Which is, I think, 00:40:02.453 --> 00:40:03.734 what I did at my keynote. 00:40:03.794 --> 00:40:05.196 I'm not even sure. 00:40:06.116 --> 00:40:07.397 I'm usually feeling quiet. 00:40:07.457 --> 00:40:09.080 So I lean into that and it gives 00:40:09.140 --> 00:40:10.000 me this presence. 00:40:10.781 --> 00:40:12.163 So because of all of that, 00:40:12.564 --> 00:40:14.065 that's now what I'm doing. 00:40:14.665 --> 00:40:15.266 And yeah. 00:40:16.448 --> 00:40:17.469 I'm, I don't know, 00:40:17.549 --> 00:40:18.790 I love it so much. 00:40:20.390 --> 00:40:22.672 I'm doing one-on-one coaching with people 00:40:22.712 --> 00:40:24.134 when they have a talk coming up and 00:40:24.174 --> 00:40:27.917 I'm also aiming to do some cohorts where, 00:40:28.216 --> 00:40:28.457 you know, 00:40:28.578 --> 00:40:30.299 I gave these five-hour workshops where it 00:40:30.319 --> 00:40:31.980 was just a crash course quickly and I 00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:33.600 would love to do like one module at 00:40:33.620 --> 00:40:34.301 a time, 00:40:34.801 --> 00:40:36.504 one month at a time and really dig 00:40:36.564 --> 00:40:38.906 into it together and get people from, 00:40:39.665 --> 00:40:40.085 I don't know, 00:40:40.187 --> 00:40:42.408 I could never give a talk to giving 00:40:42.428 --> 00:40:44.710 a standout talk that they're so proud of 00:40:44.810 --> 00:40:45.790 and everybody really loves. 00:40:46.959 --> 00:40:48.661 So that's the current thing. 00:40:49.661 --> 00:40:51.705 Yeah, that's a good current thing to have. 00:40:53.806 --> 00:40:56.489 I've had a couple people on before who 00:40:56.549 --> 00:40:59.214 are either in DevRel or they're in tech 00:40:59.234 --> 00:41:01.196 spaces who come from similar backgrounds 00:41:01.256 --> 00:41:04.279 where, you know, they... 00:41:06.265 --> 00:41:10.227 had to sort of force themselves to do 00:41:10.286 --> 00:41:11.248 public speaking, 00:41:11.667 --> 00:41:13.629 and they did so because they thought it 00:41:13.669 --> 00:41:16.031 would just help them in general or because 00:41:16.051 --> 00:41:17.230 it would help them professionally or 00:41:17.252 --> 00:41:17.631 whatever, 00:41:19.132 --> 00:41:20.593 and now they do it a lot and 00:41:20.612 --> 00:41:21.413 they really enjoy it. 00:41:22.915 --> 00:41:24.835 What are the sorts of things that you 00:41:25.857 --> 00:41:26.156 would 00:41:26.877 --> 00:41:29.379 recommend or suggest to folks that are 00:41:29.538 --> 00:41:31.379 that are on the cusp but need a 00:41:31.500 --> 00:41:32.940 little bit of a nudge to to to 00:41:33.881 --> 00:41:35.562 do to go to a meetup and and 00:41:35.882 --> 00:41:38.464 do like talk or you know give a 00:41:38.504 --> 00:41:41.846 presentation for their employer or like or 00:41:42.446 --> 00:41:44.107 get up on stage like whatever what's 00:41:44.167 --> 00:41:45.728 what's the sort of like key thing that 00:41:45.748 --> 00:41:48.031 you think that uh that you would suggest 00:41:48.071 --> 00:41:49.792 to to get people over a little over 00:41:49.812 --> 00:41:50.131 that hump 00:41:52.085 --> 00:41:52.906 That's a good question. 00:41:53.006 --> 00:41:54.926 And it depends a little bit on where 00:41:54.986 --> 00:41:56.247 that hump is. 00:41:56.486 --> 00:41:58.328 You know, I would start by asking, 00:41:58.987 --> 00:42:01.109 is it feeling like they don't know enough 00:42:01.149 --> 00:42:02.428 and don't belong on stage? 00:42:02.569 --> 00:42:04.069 They don't know what their topic is. 00:42:04.149 --> 00:42:05.310 They're too nervous. 00:42:05.810 --> 00:42:07.390 They don't know how to write a title 00:42:07.471 --> 00:42:08.730 and description. 00:42:09.310 --> 00:42:11.451 I actually have a little self-diagnostic 00:42:11.511 --> 00:42:11.911 tool. 00:42:12.172 --> 00:42:13.953 Am I allowed to mention a little thing 00:42:13.993 --> 00:42:14.672 on my website? 00:42:14.692 --> 00:42:14.852 Yeah. 00:42:16.134 --> 00:42:19.397 Speaktechconfidently.com slash blueprint. 00:42:19.857 --> 00:42:21.638 I lay out the ten steps for what 00:42:21.680 --> 00:42:24.042 it takes to get on stage and have 00:42:24.082 --> 00:42:27.024 people self-diagnose what's their 00:42:27.044 --> 00:42:28.946 confidence level with each stage. 00:42:29.127 --> 00:42:30.647 So some of the stages that I just 00:42:30.687 --> 00:42:31.089 mentioned. 00:42:32.428 --> 00:42:34.629 so for the two most common ones well 00:42:34.690 --> 00:42:37.210 for the three most common ones that I 00:42:37.290 --> 00:42:38.772 hear a lot is what would I talk 00:42:38.792 --> 00:42:43.654 about and so there's little exercises we 00:42:43.674 --> 00:42:46.594 can do but as a quick example the 00:42:46.654 --> 00:42:49.295 best talks are what we're already doing 00:42:49.536 --> 00:42:52.178 every day in our tech life so a 00:42:52.198 --> 00:42:55.839 little quick prompt could be think about 00:42:56.478 --> 00:42:58.419 the last three things that you learned at 00:42:58.460 --> 00:42:59.980 work and then 00:43:01.504 --> 00:43:02.564 some one of those could be a great 00:43:02.623 --> 00:43:05.245 topic or or a great one is like 00:43:05.305 --> 00:43:06.645 mistakes you've made everybody has 00:43:06.705 --> 00:43:08.585 mistakes they've made in tech and that 00:43:08.886 --> 00:43:11.506 that's a really good story-based talk like 00:43:11.587 --> 00:43:13.227 here's the mistakes i made so that i 00:43:13.567 --> 00:43:15.027 you know learn from me so you don't 00:43:15.067 --> 00:43:18.948 make the same mistakes um if it is 00:43:19.270 --> 00:43:21.649 feeling like they don't belong on stage a 00:43:21.669 --> 00:43:23.810 little thing i mentioned before um 00:43:25.292 --> 00:43:28.312 we tend to self-select ourselves out 00:43:28.413 --> 00:43:30.294 feeling like I only know a little bit, 00:43:30.834 --> 00:43:32.674 but actually we know the same amount as 00:43:32.714 --> 00:43:34.736 the people who are getting up on stage. 00:43:35.395 --> 00:43:37.457 Um, but I like to say, because I'm, 00:43:38.277 --> 00:43:39.138 I love helping people. 00:43:39.178 --> 00:43:39.357 Well, 00:43:39.739 --> 00:43:41.558 so there's a bunch of different kinds of 00:43:41.598 --> 00:43:41.980 talks, 00:43:42.080 --> 00:43:43.861 but I do lean towards the story-based 00:43:43.901 --> 00:43:44.181 talk. 00:43:45.000 --> 00:43:47.922 Although I let people choose there's how 00:43:47.982 --> 00:43:50.283 to talks, story-based case studies, 00:43:50.584 --> 00:43:52.544 panels, workshops, et cetera. 00:43:52.565 --> 00:43:52.605 Um, 00:43:53.504 --> 00:43:55.426 But the great thing about story-based 00:43:55.446 --> 00:43:58.348 talks is we are always an expert in 00:43:58.408 --> 00:43:59.509 our own experience. 00:44:00.029 --> 00:44:03.792 Nobody can argue with our life experience. 00:44:04.352 --> 00:44:06.835 So that's one way to get over that 00:44:07.055 --> 00:44:07.435 hurdle. 00:44:07.975 --> 00:44:09.116 And then for nerves, 00:44:09.315 --> 00:44:12.919 the two big tips are practice, practice, 00:44:12.959 --> 00:44:15.440 practice, practice. 00:44:15.620 --> 00:44:16.761 If one can, 00:44:16.821 --> 00:44:18.823 before getting up on a big stage, 00:44:18.982 --> 00:44:21.404 get up on little related stages first. 00:44:21.964 --> 00:44:23.667 Or even just talking to friends and 00:44:23.707 --> 00:44:26.087 family, just practice. 00:44:27.509 --> 00:44:28.350 And breathing. 00:44:28.549 --> 00:44:30.571 Breathing is this overlooked thing. 00:44:31.172 --> 00:44:32.774 We breathe, but do we? 00:44:33.654 --> 00:44:34.794 When we get nervous, 00:44:34.975 --> 00:44:38.857 our breath and energy gets high and we... 00:44:40.198 --> 00:44:42.721 We're breathing from here and here and our 00:44:42.761 --> 00:44:45.024 voice goes up and our body gets tense. 00:44:45.605 --> 00:44:47.647 And if we bring that, 00:44:47.926 --> 00:44:49.408 slow the breathing down, 00:44:50.189 --> 00:44:51.651 breathe through our belly, 00:44:51.850 --> 00:44:53.272 take a few deep breaths. 00:44:53.913 --> 00:44:57.276 I recommend breathing in the weeks and 00:44:57.315 --> 00:44:59.297 days leading up to it because some of 00:44:59.377 --> 00:45:00.739 us are in a heightened state. 00:45:01.219 --> 00:45:01.879 All that time, 00:45:02.281 --> 00:45:04.301 but then also on the day of, 00:45:05.562 --> 00:45:07.143 do deep breathing before. 00:45:07.602 --> 00:45:09.424 And then there's often a wait period 00:45:09.484 --> 00:45:11.004 before we're called up on stage. 00:45:11.364 --> 00:45:12.585 Great time to do more breathing. 00:45:13.404 --> 00:45:18.147 And when we get on stage before talking, 00:45:19.328 --> 00:45:21.189 I recommend doing deep breathing. 00:45:22.388 --> 00:45:23.870 There's a difference between somebody who 00:45:24.250 --> 00:45:25.750 walks up onto stage and then starts 00:45:25.790 --> 00:45:27.190 talking, hi, my name is Jill. 00:45:27.210 --> 00:45:28.292 I'm here to talk about blah, blah, blah. 00:45:28.772 --> 00:45:32.334 versus get up on stage take take a 00:45:32.353 --> 00:45:38.877 moment take a breath and then on one 00:45:38.897 --> 00:45:41.317 of the out breaths start talking which 00:45:41.417 --> 00:45:45.819 also gives us a fuller voice hi everyone 00:45:46.040 --> 00:45:47.920 my name is Jill I'm so happy to 00:45:47.960 --> 00:45:48.982 be here with you today 00:45:50.536 --> 00:45:52.036 Preferably a better start line than that. 00:45:52.116 --> 00:45:53.877 I like to coach people to have an 00:45:53.977 --> 00:45:55.839 interesting hook before starting to tell 00:45:55.859 --> 00:45:56.638 people who they are. 00:45:57.078 --> 00:45:58.640 Have like a really interesting question 00:45:58.699 --> 00:46:00.401 that is the through line of the whole 00:46:00.440 --> 00:46:00.741 talk. 00:46:02.361 --> 00:46:02.622 But yeah, 00:46:02.661 --> 00:46:05.584 those are some little tips to get people 00:46:05.603 --> 00:46:07.785 started on some of those things. 00:46:08.779 --> 00:46:10.020 Breathing is so good. 00:46:10.560 --> 00:46:14.801 Breathing is so good. 00:46:15.062 --> 00:46:18.323 So I do aerial arts stuff. 00:46:18.364 --> 00:46:19.444 I've been going to classes for about a 00:46:19.504 --> 00:46:20.424 year and pole. 00:46:20.745 --> 00:46:21.986 Cool. 00:46:22.366 --> 00:46:25.187 And our instructors are constantly saying, 00:46:25.247 --> 00:46:26.248 and remember to breathe. 00:46:27.669 --> 00:46:29.270 For very similar but slightly different 00:46:29.310 --> 00:46:29.730 reasons. 00:46:29.790 --> 00:46:32.631 But, like, yeah, 00:46:33.551 --> 00:46:35.053 you're doing a thing that's really hard 00:46:35.073 --> 00:46:36.612 and you're pulling yourself up and then 00:46:36.632 --> 00:46:37.314 you forget to breathe. 00:46:38.382 --> 00:46:40.305 You actually need to breathe. 00:46:40.324 --> 00:46:42.265 Breathing makes it better. 00:46:42.286 --> 00:46:43.908 Breathing makes it more successful. 00:46:44.288 --> 00:46:46.730 Breathing helps you not tense up. 00:46:46.810 --> 00:46:48.571 Breathing helps you not get injuries. 00:46:50.493 --> 00:46:51.335 Breathing is really good. 00:46:51.355 --> 00:46:51.774 Breathing is good. 00:46:54.236 --> 00:46:54.616 Yeah. 00:46:54.656 --> 00:46:56.038 And that actually reminds me of another 00:46:56.158 --> 00:46:58.098 thing, which is, you know, 00:46:58.118 --> 00:47:00.219 sometimes we start speeding up in a talk. 00:47:00.558 --> 00:47:03.440 And so deciding ahead of time some spots 00:47:03.480 --> 00:47:04.699 that we're going to stop and take a 00:47:04.739 --> 00:47:05.060 breath, 00:47:05.160 --> 00:47:07.161 especially between sections is a really 00:47:07.201 --> 00:47:07.741 good time. 00:47:08.361 --> 00:47:11.442 Or sometimes we have this moment where we 00:47:11.482 --> 00:47:11.942 blank. 00:47:12.522 --> 00:47:14.042 So I have this little story. 00:47:14.163 --> 00:47:16.143 When I was in grade school, 00:47:17.163 --> 00:47:19.044 I was doing pretty well at the public 00:47:19.085 --> 00:47:19.565 speaking, 00:47:19.705 --> 00:47:22.466 but there was this one time that I 00:47:22.545 --> 00:47:23.185 blanked. 00:47:25.223 --> 00:47:27.526 did not know what my next line was, 00:47:27.826 --> 00:47:29.426 ran out of the room crying, 00:47:29.866 --> 00:47:32.189 and then refused to do public speaking 00:47:32.888 --> 00:47:34.410 until I was an adult and really wanted 00:47:34.430 --> 00:47:35.991 to do my poetry on stage, 00:47:36.471 --> 00:47:37.893 until I had a really good reason to 00:47:37.933 --> 00:47:38.672 push past it. 00:47:38.973 --> 00:47:41.555 But I just lived in fear for so 00:47:41.614 --> 00:47:41.915 long. 00:47:42.596 --> 00:47:44.917 And now, with what I know now, 00:47:45.859 --> 00:47:50.203 when we blank, stop, take a few breaths, 00:47:50.703 --> 00:47:51.924 oxygenate the brain. 00:47:52.625 --> 00:47:54.486 Maybe even another thing I talk to people 00:47:54.506 --> 00:47:57.129 about is feeling in their heart, 00:47:57.169 --> 00:47:59.131 maybe even putting a hand there. 00:47:59.770 --> 00:48:02.792 their heart and that it our heart is 00:48:02.832 --> 00:48:05.473 like the second brain that will remind us 00:48:05.694 --> 00:48:08.955 what we are there to talk about and 00:48:10.415 --> 00:48:12.917 overcome situations like like tough 00:48:12.957 --> 00:48:15.977 questions in the Q&A time and so the 00:48:15.998 --> 00:48:18.178 breathing and and the heart thing will 00:48:18.198 --> 00:48:20.440 help people get over the humps of stuff 00:48:20.500 --> 00:48:23.902 in the middle of the things that happen 00:48:23.922 --> 00:48:24.721 when we're on stage 00:48:25.473 --> 00:48:26.453 Yeah. 00:48:26.493 --> 00:48:28.995 Well, I'll have to think about that. 00:48:31.036 --> 00:48:31.616 Remember that. 00:48:32.455 --> 00:48:33.596 Well, thank you so much, Joe, 00:48:33.616 --> 00:48:34.417 for coming on. 00:48:34.797 --> 00:48:37.357 I love talking about this stuff. 00:48:37.498 --> 00:48:39.098 I love to have you on. 00:48:39.357 --> 00:48:41.098 I was so happy that we got to 00:48:41.138 --> 00:48:43.000 meet in person a few months ago. 00:48:43.819 --> 00:48:46.460 For anyone who's maybe looking for you or 00:48:46.500 --> 00:48:48.000 what you do on the internet, 00:48:48.040 --> 00:48:50.102 where can they find you? 00:48:50.281 --> 00:48:52.263 Ooh, great question. 00:48:52.723 --> 00:48:53.123 I am... 00:48:53.696 --> 00:48:56.698 jill binder all one word on linkedin 00:48:57.098 --> 00:49:02.861 mastodon still on x um uh facebook but 00:49:02.881 --> 00:49:04.362 except on facebook it's jill binder 00:49:04.402 --> 00:49:08.346 consulting um those are the business 00:49:08.386 --> 00:49:12.007 social medias and my website is speak tech 00:49:12.167 --> 00:49:15.750 confidently.com and that little um 00:49:16.591 --> 00:49:19.172 the self-diagnostic tool that I mentioned 00:49:19.232 --> 00:49:21.893 to figure out where somebody is stuck so 00:49:21.953 --> 00:49:23.975 they know where to even start or also 00:49:24.015 --> 00:49:26.295 just to know like how does one do 00:49:26.355 --> 00:49:27.616 a talk or how does one do their 00:49:27.696 --> 00:49:30.038 next talk and make it better um the 00:49:30.078 --> 00:49:31.839 ten steps to that it's that was 00:49:31.998 --> 00:49:34.899 speaktechconfidently.com slash blueprint 00:49:35.140 --> 00:49:36.741 and thanks for letting me mention those 00:49:36.781 --> 00:49:38.442 things free some free stuff 00:49:38.902 --> 00:49:39.323 For sure. 00:49:39.422 --> 00:49:39.743 For sure. 00:49:39.803 --> 00:49:40.285 Absolutely. 00:49:40.705 --> 00:49:41.968 Well, thanks again for coming on. 00:49:42.268 --> 00:49:42.750 Thank you, 00:49:42.810 --> 00:49:44.073 everybody who might be watching or 00:49:44.093 --> 00:49:45.214 listening to this in the future. 00:49:45.696 --> 00:49:47.940 And we'll see you on the internet. 00:49:48.040 --> 00:49:48.841 Thank you, Chris. 00:49:49.042 --> 00:49:50.946 This was a pleasure. 00:49:50.966 --> 00:49:51.247 Thank you.