WEBVTT

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Hi, welcome back to community and code.

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I'm Chris jazz sequence on the internet.

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And today we've got a guest I've been

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wanting to get on the show for a

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while.

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Miriam Schwab has been in the WordPress

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world for two decades.

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I first met her several years ago at

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WordCamp US in San Diego,

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which was the one that was the first

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one after COVID when we were all still

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trying to figure out how to stand next

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to each other.

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her company Stratik had just gotten

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acquired by Elementor,

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and she was sent to represent a company

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she had only just barely joined.

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Mariam started as a freelance content

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writer who noticed that the websites she

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was building were actually more

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interesting than the writing itself.

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So she taught herself how to build them

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and then built a thirteen year agency

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serving tech companies and non-profits in

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Israel.

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Then she went full startup mode,

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co-founded Stratik,

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raised venture capital,

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got into accelerators,

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the whole nine yards.

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Stratik ended up with Fortune five hundred

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companies and governments on it,

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and then Elementor acquired it,

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which is how she ended up as head

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of WordPress at Elementor,

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a title that basically means she does

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everything that keeps the most installed

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WordPress plugin in the world connected to

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the community that made it successful.

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We talked about what it's actually like to

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build a community presence inside a twenty

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one million install company.

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Yes, you got that number right.

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Why she thinks contributing to open source

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is a brand investment and how the

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connection she made with the Elementor

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founders at a tiny WordCamp in Israel many

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years ago eventually led to all of this.

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Let's get to it.

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Welcome to Community & Code,

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the podcast where we talk to the human

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beings behind the commits.

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And I'm here today with Miriam Schwab.

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Miriam is a head of WordPress at

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Elementor, a longtime WordPress developer,

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contributor,

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been in a lot of WordPress-y things for

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a very long time, speaker, mentor,

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all sorts of things.

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Miriam,

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welcome to the show and tell us about

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yourself.

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Well, thank you for having me.

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About myself.

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Well,

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I got into WordPress when I was actually

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providing freelance services for content

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writing.

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That's what I was doing first.

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My degree is in English literature and

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that seemed like a pretty natural

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progression from that.

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But the truth is that when I started

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studying in university,

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I started out studying computer science,

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actually.

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But I had just moved to Israel.

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And while I knew Hebrew quite well,

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there's a difference between knowing

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Hebrew for like standard conversation and

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studying computer science in Hebrew is a

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whole other level.

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And I found that I really just didn't

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know what they were talking about.

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I didn't know what was going on.

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I didn't know what the words meant.

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And so I decided to switch into basically

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the only thing that was taught in English

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at the time in Israel, which was computer,

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which was English literature.

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I've always had a dual love for technology

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and literature, actually.

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avid reader um I do also enjoy writing

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but also have loved technology since I was

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a kid um my dad bought us our

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first like pc I don't know how old

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I was like maybe eight but he was

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he bought two actually first he had one

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and I think we were driving him crazier

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like especially that we were always we

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always wanted to use it it was so

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cool that he actually got a second one

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for us in his office space in our

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house like he would be on one and

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we'd

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I would be on the other.

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And he would buy me these coding books

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where they would just have the code on

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like printed pages,

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like this was my old school, right?

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And I would type it in and then

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it would turn into like a snake game

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or something.

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And I was like amazed.

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And he would also buy me these magazines.

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I think it was called three, two,

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one contact.

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It was like a science magazine.

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And, you know,

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it was about like nature science and tech

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science.

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And I always loved the things about space

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and all that.

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Anyway, so I always had like,

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very strong interest uh and love for where

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technology was going um but it just the

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the way things worked out was that i

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studied english literature which i

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actually really loved um but then after i

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finished it i figured okay i'm gonna work

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with that kind of space which i did

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but then what was happening was the

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content that i was writing

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was going into websites and the websites

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were way more interesting to me.

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I was like, and I like,

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I was enamored with the internet and what

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it offered made so many things accessible

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to all of us, you know,

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any question now, you know, with AI,

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it's like a whole other level,

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but then already just the idea that I

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could search for information and get it.

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And, um,

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and that websites gave people a way to,

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um,

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be in front of many other people so

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i started to teach myself to build

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websites um that was the other wonderful

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amazing thing about the internet that um

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it was very embedded in an open source

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philosophy and approach and that's what

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made it what it is so people also

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share a lot of information online

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So I could learn from others.

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Like basically I would just search for,

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okay, how do I do this?

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How do I do that?

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You know, Stack Overflow,

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all that kind of stuff.

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And then, yeah,

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so I taught myself to build websites and

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started to offer that as a service.

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And then things went from there.

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I remember the very first time I

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experienced the internet,

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I was probably at a library on one

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of their computers.

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They just barely got like computers hooked

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up to the internet or something.

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It was probably dial-up.

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I don't know.

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It had to have been dial-up.

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um and like like that was like when

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yahoo was like what you used and um

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Like, I mean,

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there was a couple other like directories,

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but like Yahoo is the thing.

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And like, there was just like,

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just like lists of links and you didn't

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know what any of the links were and

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you would click on a link at random

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and it would take you to some weird

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site and like, okay, this is interesting.

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And then at the bottom of that weird

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site, there'd be like, uh, find the next,

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uh, site in this web ring.

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And then you would click on that and

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you'd get set to some other random site

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that was tangentially related to the last

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site you had on.

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And then you would just get into these,

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like you deep rabbit holes of like,

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weird inter like interlinked pieces like

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parts because the only way that you would

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know how like the only way that you

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would find another site was from some

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other site that might have linked to it

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through like a web ring or a guest

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book or like something like because there

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wasn't there wasn't there wasn't ranking

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in certain like google search engine

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ranking wasn't a thing like it would like

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there was no google like it was just

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like a bunch of just random text pages

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that had

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a hyperlink that took you someplace.

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Like you had no idea where you were

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going.

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Right.

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Totally.

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It was a weird and wonderful thing.

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It was like,

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we all could get access to other people's

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weird, random, cool, fascinating, strange,

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like ideas and representations of

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themselves.

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And it was so interesting.

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Like that was the other thing that I

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really loved about the internet

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specifically,

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like beyond computers and technology was

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that like,

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you could just, you know, talk to someone,

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regardless of where they were,

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and hear their thoughts and communicate

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with them.

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Whereas in the past,

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it was a phone call was doable,

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but okay,

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that wasn't gonna happen with like

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strangers.

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And, you know, maybe email at some point,

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but like,

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that was a whole other level of connection

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with people removing the constraint of

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Geographic proximity,

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which was always a type of constraint.

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And that also was so cool to me.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, for sure.

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Like every one of these,

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these web pages on the internet,

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on the very early internet,

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like represented a single human being

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somewhere else in the world that was

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completely different and separate from you

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that you would never have been exposed to

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previously.

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And I I've told this story before,

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but I paid for.

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access to a bbs before i paid for

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access to the internet so like i was

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like even even while i was going to

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the library and like like browsing online

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the thing that i found most interesting

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was hanging out with people in chat rooms

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um and like there that that was also

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like a weird weird wild wonderful space of

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like

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like, the dial-up and then, like,

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hyperterm and, like, logging into this,

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like, text-based thing and, like,

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navigating through, like,

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an interconnected web of these, like,

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there's, like,

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a network that I subscribe to.

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Like,

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there is a network of these BBS servers.

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And so you would pick what server in

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which city you would want to hang out

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in.

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yeah uh so so you got you got

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started writing uh on websites and then

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you started getting interested in websites

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when when we met i think the first

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time we met it was uh work camp

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san diego or no one camp us in

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san diego

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And at the time,

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it was the tail end, I think,

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of Stratik, because I think, like,

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you were just, like,

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it had not yet been announced that

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Elementor had acquired Stratik,

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which was your agency.

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So where is the intervening years between,

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like,

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making your first website to running your

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own agency that gets acquired by

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Elementor?

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Like, what happens in the in-between time?

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So actually,

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I went agency tech company startup.

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That was Stratik.

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Stratik was a platform for publishing

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WordPress websites.

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And then acquisition by Elementor.

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So basically, it went like this.

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Discovered that I love websites.

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Start building websites.

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Start to add that as an offering in

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addition to content.

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Start to push that more as an offering

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because it was much more fun for me.

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And then...

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that like positioned me to be one of

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the first people to offer WordPress as a

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professional solution,

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not just as a blogging platform for

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amateurs in Israel, actually.

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So I was well positioned when people

00:10:39.743 --> 00:10:41.523
started to turn around around version

00:10:41.543 --> 00:10:42.945
three of WordPress and were like, oh,

00:10:43.004 --> 00:10:43.244
actually,

00:10:43.264 --> 00:10:45.966
this is a great option for our company

00:10:46.028 --> 00:10:48.168
or organization websites who can do that

00:10:48.209 --> 00:10:48.489
for us.

00:10:48.610 --> 00:10:49.831
Oh, Miriam, because I was already

00:10:50.551 --> 00:10:51.752
I was already doing it and people like

00:10:51.871 --> 00:10:52.611
kind of start, you know,

00:10:52.632 --> 00:10:53.812
it's like word of mouth or whatever.

00:10:54.513 --> 00:10:56.893
So I started to do that and building

00:10:56.933 --> 00:11:00.235
custom WordPress websites for companies,

00:11:00.276 --> 00:11:01.517
a lot of tech companies and large

00:11:01.537 --> 00:11:03.258
nonprofits that, you know,

00:11:03.398 --> 00:11:05.359
needed specific attention for their

00:11:05.398 --> 00:11:05.778
activity.

00:11:06.840 --> 00:11:08.061
It was just me at first and then

00:11:08.321 --> 00:11:09.301
grew it out to be an agency.

00:11:09.380 --> 00:11:10.922
So I did that for thirteen years.

00:11:11.042 --> 00:11:11.743
All along the way,

00:11:12.243 --> 00:11:13.604
I did have ideas for products.

00:11:14.584 --> 00:11:15.485
especially as the years went on,

00:11:15.544 --> 00:11:16.066
I had like,

00:11:16.125 --> 00:11:18.128
I had more and more of like a

00:11:18.228 --> 00:11:20.630
push to move into the product space,

00:11:20.691 --> 00:11:23.653
but I gave it a few goes,

00:11:23.693 --> 00:11:26.437
but at the time, so like I had,

00:11:26.456 --> 00:11:27.898
I was having kids and I was,

00:11:28.099 --> 00:11:28.339
you know,

00:11:28.359 --> 00:11:30.461
they were little and the agency and I

00:11:30.740 --> 00:11:32.923
had to force myself to realize that like,

00:11:33.693 --> 00:11:35.075
you really have to learn to say no,

00:11:35.195 --> 00:11:35.914
even to yourself.

00:11:36.036 --> 00:11:38.736
Like when I bit off more than I

00:11:38.757 --> 00:11:41.038
could chew, too many things paid a price.

00:11:41.079 --> 00:11:43.460
So I left that and kept building sites

00:11:43.499 --> 00:11:44.620
and really enjoyed it.

00:11:44.661 --> 00:11:46.382
Like that was like for thirteen years of

00:11:46.542 --> 00:11:47.403
offering services.

00:11:49.484 --> 00:11:50.945
It was always interesting because the

00:11:51.105 --> 00:11:53.627
companies were interesting or the

00:11:53.647 --> 00:11:56.167
organizations like that made the work also

00:11:56.207 --> 00:11:56.829
meaningful and also

00:11:57.806 --> 00:11:59.466
Each one had their own, you know,

00:11:59.606 --> 00:12:00.846
unique take or need.

00:12:00.866 --> 00:12:02.927
And so we had to learn to do

00:12:02.967 --> 00:12:03.807
things that we hadn't done before.

00:12:03.827 --> 00:12:04.847
So it was a constant learning curve.

00:12:05.128 --> 00:12:05.888
But at a certain point,

00:12:05.947 --> 00:12:08.048
it did start to feel like, okay,

00:12:08.369 --> 00:12:10.129
I've done this for like quite a while.

00:12:10.230 --> 00:12:11.789
Also, my kids were getting bigger.

00:12:13.171 --> 00:12:16.611
And I wanted like a next challenge.

00:12:17.812 --> 00:12:20.613
And I had really wanted to move into

00:12:20.633 --> 00:12:21.212
the product space.

00:12:21.692 --> 00:12:25.634
And then that timing was around the start

00:12:25.673 --> 00:12:27.014
of the Jamstack trend.

00:12:28.325 --> 00:12:30.927
And I read a blog post by Matt

00:12:30.966 --> 00:12:31.287
Billman,

00:12:32.207 --> 00:12:34.090
one of the co-founders of Netlify,

00:12:34.610 --> 00:12:35.931
where he did a case study where he

00:12:35.970 --> 00:12:37.652
generated a static version of a WordPress

00:12:37.692 --> 00:12:37.932
site.

00:12:38.692 --> 00:12:39.273
And of course,

00:12:39.313 --> 00:12:41.435
performance was better and all that,

00:12:42.056 --> 00:12:42.735
the scalability.

00:12:42.755 --> 00:12:43.937
I was like, oh my goodness,

00:12:43.976 --> 00:12:44.697
that's really cool.

00:12:46.079 --> 00:12:47.700
I could see that Jamstack had issues

00:12:47.759 --> 00:12:50.441
because it led people to having to do,

00:12:51.562 --> 00:12:52.523
I don't know how else to describe it,

00:12:52.584 --> 00:12:54.326
too many somersaults in the air to achieve

00:12:54.365 --> 00:12:56.206
the same thing that WordPress was doing.

00:12:56.912 --> 00:12:57.253
You know,

00:12:57.332 --> 00:12:58.793
like you're reinventing the wheel the

00:12:58.813 --> 00:12:59.475
whole time.

00:13:00.676 --> 00:13:01.255
But I thought,

00:13:01.355 --> 00:13:03.577
what if we combine these two worlds,

00:13:03.597 --> 00:13:06.060
give people WordPress as their like a

00:13:06.239 --> 00:13:08.841
source of truth where they work and they

00:13:08.861 --> 00:13:10.222
know how to work and marketing teams feel

00:13:10.243 --> 00:13:12.384
comfortable, but that's like hidden.

00:13:12.926 --> 00:13:14.566
It's a, it's almost like a staging site.

00:13:15.066 --> 00:13:16.849
And then they deploy a static version of

00:13:16.888 --> 00:13:18.070
the site to the internet.

00:13:18.149 --> 00:13:20.032
And then that site is super fast,

00:13:20.252 --> 00:13:21.493
resilient, scalable.

00:13:21.572 --> 00:13:22.854
Like it solves all their issues.

00:13:23.401 --> 00:13:25.601
A lot of the companies that came on

00:13:25.621 --> 00:13:26.422
board with Stratix,

00:13:27.101 --> 00:13:30.123
it was driven by their CISOs or someone

00:13:30.222 --> 00:13:33.443
who was like a CTO type person who

00:13:33.763 --> 00:13:36.985
couldn't stand the company was running a

00:13:37.004 --> 00:13:37.965
WordPress site.

00:13:37.985 --> 00:13:39.566
They were not sleeping at night because of

00:13:39.645 --> 00:13:39.765
it.

00:13:39.926 --> 00:13:41.486
These were people who were like,

00:13:41.507 --> 00:13:42.446
let's say they were tech companies.

00:13:42.466 --> 00:13:44.128
A lot of them, you know,

00:13:44.148 --> 00:13:46.707
the tech stack is super high end,

00:13:46.849 --> 00:13:47.168
you know,

00:13:49.032 --> 00:13:50.134
with an eye towards the future,

00:13:50.235 --> 00:13:51.557
but then their marketing team is using

00:13:51.597 --> 00:13:53.140
what they saw as like a legacy platform.

00:13:53.522 --> 00:13:54.965
But the marketing team wanted it because

00:13:55.046 --> 00:13:56.187
it was their power tool.

00:13:57.345 --> 00:13:59.866
So Stratik bridged those two groups within

00:13:59.887 --> 00:14:00.346
the company,

00:14:00.407 --> 00:14:02.028
gave the marketing company's team what

00:14:02.048 --> 00:14:02.548
they wanted.

00:14:02.589 --> 00:14:04.430
And then the tech team or the tech

00:14:04.450 --> 00:14:05.370
leaders could sleep at night.

00:14:05.390 --> 00:14:07.832
So that was like the vision of it.

00:14:07.873 --> 00:14:09.735
And it ended up coming to fruition with

00:14:09.754 --> 00:14:10.455
a fortune,

00:14:10.475 --> 00:14:11.436
five hundred companies using it,

00:14:11.495 --> 00:14:14.677
governments, the UN, you know, all sorts.

00:14:16.600 --> 00:14:17.259
So built it up,

00:14:17.440 --> 00:14:19.762
raised venture capital funding for that

00:14:19.821 --> 00:14:21.222
and did that for like six years.

00:14:21.844 --> 00:14:23.504
I was in some startup accelerators at the

00:14:23.544 --> 00:14:25.125
beginning, which was a great experience.

00:14:25.145 --> 00:14:26.246
The whole thing was a great experience,

00:14:26.267 --> 00:14:27.028
like wild.

00:14:27.648 --> 00:14:30.110
fun great learning experience met amazing

00:14:30.149 --> 00:14:32.993
people lots of sleepless nights for me and

00:14:33.033 --> 00:14:34.994
my co-founder and our team a lot of

00:14:35.055 --> 00:14:37.937
pain and suffering also building a startup

00:14:37.996 --> 00:14:40.438
is you just have to go into it

00:14:40.459 --> 00:14:42.640
a lot of uh emotional strength or

00:14:42.681 --> 00:14:47.205
something but um but yeah and then uh

00:14:49.003 --> 00:14:49.942
I knew the founders.

00:14:52.104 --> 00:14:54.105
I met them first when I was organizing

00:14:54.185 --> 00:14:55.005
WordCamps in Israel.

00:14:55.046 --> 00:14:56.686
So one of the first ones that I

00:14:56.725 --> 00:14:58.287
did, they sponsored.

00:14:58.687 --> 00:14:59.207
At the time,

00:14:59.288 --> 00:15:01.288
they were like three guys with like a

00:15:01.349 --> 00:15:02.068
folding table.

00:15:02.648 --> 00:15:03.450
They were so small.

00:15:03.590 --> 00:15:05.590
And I think the first time they sponsored,

00:15:05.610 --> 00:15:06.811
it was like pre-Elementor.

00:15:06.851 --> 00:15:07.231
They had...

00:15:08.392 --> 00:15:10.172
a product before that they called POJO.

00:15:10.212 --> 00:15:12.052
It was like a theme that was more

00:15:12.092 --> 00:15:12.692
customizable,

00:15:12.733 --> 00:15:13.712
but then they took that to the next

00:15:13.753 --> 00:15:14.494
level with Elementor.

00:15:15.614 --> 00:15:16.254
But they would sponsor.

00:15:16.273 --> 00:15:18.914
And so we always stayed in touch and

00:15:18.955 --> 00:15:19.534
were friends.

00:15:19.595 --> 00:15:21.494
And then they were watching Stratik and

00:15:22.316 --> 00:15:22.975
had an eye on it.

00:15:23.556 --> 00:15:25.496
And that's where we ended up.

00:15:25.657 --> 00:15:27.116
But when I saw you in San Diego,

00:15:28.615 --> 00:15:31.096
First of all, that was a weird WordCamp.

00:15:32.097 --> 00:15:32.677
Remember that?

00:15:32.697 --> 00:15:32.778
Yeah.

00:15:33.599 --> 00:15:33.999
Like COVID.

00:15:34.739 --> 00:15:36.200
It was the first thing post-COVID,

00:15:36.259 --> 00:15:36.541
I think.

00:15:36.581 --> 00:15:36.661
Yeah,

00:15:36.681 --> 00:15:38.262
it was the first big event post-COVID.

00:15:38.502 --> 00:15:40.023
And people were freaking out about it,

00:15:40.082 --> 00:15:40.322
too.

00:15:40.383 --> 00:15:40.643
Freaking out.

00:15:41.263 --> 00:15:41.923
Yeah.

00:15:41.964 --> 00:15:43.104
Don't stand too close to me.

00:15:43.404 --> 00:15:44.685
Wear many masks.

00:15:44.725 --> 00:15:44.885
Yeah.

00:15:45.725 --> 00:15:46.446
It was really limited.

00:15:46.505 --> 00:15:47.986
It was like a hundred people.

00:15:48.167 --> 00:15:50.528
It was more than a hundred people.

00:15:50.609 --> 00:15:50.808
Yeah.

00:15:51.649 --> 00:15:53.331
It was like some really small amount.

00:15:53.370 --> 00:15:54.731
It was definitely small for,

00:15:54.871 --> 00:15:55.932
for a WordCamp for sure.

00:15:55.972 --> 00:15:56.572
Yeah.

00:15:56.672 --> 00:15:56.913
It was,

00:15:57.353 --> 00:15:58.714
I really think it wasn't more than two

00:15:58.734 --> 00:15:59.195
hundred people.

00:15:59.274 --> 00:16:00.576
I remember the number being like super

00:16:00.615 --> 00:16:04.478
small, but it was right, like,

00:16:04.859 --> 00:16:05.719
like right after,

00:16:05.739 --> 00:16:08.421
like maybe the week after Estradic had

00:16:08.441 --> 00:16:09.221
joined Elementor,

00:16:09.321 --> 00:16:10.542
like we were super new there.

00:16:11.182 --> 00:16:12.584
I was trying to figure out.

00:16:14.344 --> 00:16:15.325
I felt a little bit like,

00:16:15.384 --> 00:16:18.608
what am I doing here?

00:16:19.329 --> 00:16:20.168
And it was the first time I went

00:16:20.188 --> 00:16:21.169
to an event with Elementor.

00:16:24.004 --> 00:16:24.604
and I was just,

00:16:24.844 --> 00:16:26.985
I was just like trying to figure out

00:16:27.024 --> 00:16:28.825
my place in the, in the company,

00:16:28.904 --> 00:16:30.666
like from that perspective.

00:16:30.885 --> 00:16:32.245
So yeah, that's it.

00:16:32.406 --> 00:16:32.586
Yeah.

00:16:32.666 --> 00:16:33.547
No, I remember that.

00:16:33.566 --> 00:16:36.027
I remember you like talking about how like

00:16:36.507 --> 00:16:36.788
your,

00:16:37.008 --> 00:16:38.488
your company was just acquired and you

00:16:38.628 --> 00:16:41.729
really didn't know what your title was or

00:16:41.749 --> 00:16:43.168
what you would be doing anymore.

00:16:43.268 --> 00:16:44.169
But like, here you are.

00:16:45.230 --> 00:16:45.409
Yeah.

00:16:45.430 --> 00:16:45.810
They're like,

00:16:46.430 --> 00:16:48.191
obviously you should go to word camp

00:16:48.230 --> 00:16:48.870
because like,

00:16:49.786 --> 00:16:51.307
You know, they know me.

00:16:51.488 --> 00:16:52.448
They knew me and, like,

00:16:52.808 --> 00:16:53.570
and my involvement in the WordPress

00:16:53.590 --> 00:16:53.869
community.

00:16:53.889 --> 00:16:55.152
So if anyone's going to go to WordCamp

00:16:55.231 --> 00:16:56.233
with Elementor, it should be me.

00:16:56.253 --> 00:16:58.494
But, like, I didn't yet feel, like,

00:16:58.595 --> 00:16:59.856
part of the team.

00:17:00.437 --> 00:17:05.302
And, yeah, it was very... It was, like,

00:17:05.321 --> 00:17:07.023
a bit awkward for me.

00:17:07.063 --> 00:17:07.224
So...

00:17:08.369 --> 00:17:10.330
Yeah, that's kind of a journey,

00:17:10.590 --> 00:17:11.190
more or less,

00:17:11.369 --> 00:17:13.051
from agency to Stratix to Elementor.

00:17:15.252 --> 00:17:16.712
I want to take a step back and

00:17:16.733 --> 00:17:17.312
I want to ask,

00:17:17.692 --> 00:17:22.374
was there ever something else that you

00:17:22.435 --> 00:17:23.956
looked at besides WordPress?

00:17:23.995 --> 00:17:26.816
Or have you been deep into WordPress from

00:17:26.897 --> 00:17:27.517
day one?

00:17:29.177 --> 00:17:29.417
You know,

00:17:29.478 --> 00:17:31.239
sometimes when I've been interviewed in

00:17:31.259 --> 00:17:32.079
the past, they're like,

00:17:32.339 --> 00:17:34.180
what are your other interests in hobbies?

00:17:34.220 --> 00:17:34.980
You know, that kind of thing.

00:17:36.278 --> 00:17:39.399
I'm like, I, I, I have not,

00:17:41.701 --> 00:17:44.481
I have always been all in on WordPress.

00:17:44.662 --> 00:17:48.263
Like, you know, I think one of the,

00:17:48.283 --> 00:17:49.624
there's like a few reasons for that.

00:17:50.164 --> 00:17:50.465
Uh,

00:17:50.485 --> 00:17:51.605
I always found it really fun and

00:17:51.644 --> 00:17:52.004
interesting.

00:17:52.024 --> 00:17:53.465
There was always something new to learn,

00:17:53.625 --> 00:17:55.127
which is, which matters to me.

00:17:55.187 --> 00:17:56.446
So it wasn't, it was not boring.

00:17:57.408 --> 00:18:00.168
Um, and really the people, like,

00:18:00.329 --> 00:18:02.110
I really just loved meeting the community.

00:18:02.129 --> 00:18:04.470
When I started going to like more global

00:18:04.510 --> 00:18:05.191
WordCamps, I,

00:18:06.387 --> 00:18:06.566
you know,

00:18:06.606 --> 00:18:08.369
I met people that I had been following

00:18:08.428 --> 00:18:09.869
or connected with online and then you meet

00:18:09.889 --> 00:18:10.330
them in person.

00:18:10.350 --> 00:18:11.230
It's a whole other story.

00:18:12.571 --> 00:18:13.672
And I just, you know,

00:18:14.092 --> 00:18:15.513
I really loved meeting people and seeing

00:18:15.533 --> 00:18:16.174
what they're working on.

00:18:16.215 --> 00:18:18.235
And it just continuously stayed

00:18:18.336 --> 00:18:20.898
interesting and fun and nice,

00:18:21.038 --> 00:18:22.779
like just a really nice, pleasant,

00:18:24.140 --> 00:18:25.802
good hearted, I would say, like,

00:18:25.861 --> 00:18:27.182
I don't know, community.

00:18:27.302 --> 00:18:30.225
So, so I've, I've always been in it,

00:18:30.306 --> 00:18:31.907
you know, obviously throughout the years,

00:18:33.113 --> 00:18:35.374
as things develop and evolve,

00:18:35.715 --> 00:18:37.757
like on the web and in tech,

00:18:38.417 --> 00:18:40.860
I've looked at other solutions to see if,

00:18:41.019 --> 00:18:41.239
you know,

00:18:41.259 --> 00:18:42.561
I don't want to be left behind and

00:18:42.661 --> 00:18:43.441
I don't, you know,

00:18:43.481 --> 00:18:44.243
I want to make sure that,

00:18:44.922 --> 00:18:46.744
also let's say in my agency days,

00:18:47.284 --> 00:18:48.345
to make sure that we're offering the right

00:18:48.365 --> 00:18:48.986
solution for them.

00:18:49.246 --> 00:18:50.648
But every time I tested something out,

00:18:50.849 --> 00:18:51.989
I got frustrated by it.

00:18:52.069 --> 00:18:53.030
It was always limited.

00:18:55.049 --> 00:18:56.971
It just, it was never as good.

00:18:57.132 --> 00:18:58.012
And it was,

00:18:58.093 --> 00:18:59.433
I never felt as good working with it.

00:18:59.473 --> 00:19:01.697
So, you know, I dabble,

00:19:01.757 --> 00:19:03.018
but like in the end, just,

00:19:03.678 --> 00:19:04.419
just stuck with it.

00:19:04.459 --> 00:19:07.761
And yeah, I'm like a one trick pony.

00:19:09.580 --> 00:19:10.402
I mean, you know,

00:19:10.441 --> 00:19:12.962
like I sort of had a similar experience

00:19:12.982 --> 00:19:16.204
when I was freelancing is like when I

00:19:16.245 --> 00:19:17.425
first started freelancing,

00:19:18.185 --> 00:19:20.406
I was working for a company and I

00:19:20.426 --> 00:19:23.009
was like a contract freelancer and they

00:19:23.268 --> 00:19:24.370
sort of had their own way of doing

00:19:24.410 --> 00:19:25.390
things which involved

00:19:27.892 --> 00:19:30.633
like doing your whole design in Photoshop

00:19:31.014 --> 00:19:33.714
and then using the slicing tool to like

00:19:33.755 --> 00:19:37.137
make a HTML like table based website out

00:19:37.178 --> 00:19:37.478
of that.

00:19:38.117 --> 00:19:39.639
That was like the very early days.

00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:42.720
So that was all like just straight up

00:19:42.881 --> 00:19:43.422
HTML,

00:19:43.501 --> 00:19:48.464
but we also used Zen Cart whenever there

00:19:48.484 --> 00:19:49.685
was an e-commerce platform.

00:19:49.705 --> 00:19:51.787
So I got pretty good at styling that.

00:19:52.287 --> 00:19:53.566
But when I broke away and started

00:19:53.606 --> 00:19:54.768
freelancing on my own,

00:19:56.028 --> 00:19:57.228
Zen Cart was still a thing that I

00:19:57.248 --> 00:19:59.748
was doing for a little bit just because

00:19:59.807 --> 00:20:00.649
I was familiar with it.

00:20:00.689 --> 00:20:03.149
But I played a little bit in Joomla.

00:20:03.229 --> 00:20:04.949
I played a little bit in Magento.

00:20:07.989 --> 00:20:09.210
But WordPress was the thing.

00:20:09.410 --> 00:20:10.970
When I started using it for myself,

00:20:11.790 --> 00:20:13.270
that was just so much easier,

00:20:13.490 --> 00:20:15.290
especially because at the time,

00:20:15.490 --> 00:20:16.971
I think what I was doing was I

00:20:17.132 --> 00:20:18.451
had found a script

00:20:18.991 --> 00:20:21.333
that would essentially like it'd be you'd

00:20:21.373 --> 00:20:23.134
make an HTML page and then there's like

00:20:23.153 --> 00:20:24.834
a little JavaScript thing that you would

00:20:24.874 --> 00:20:25.453
put in there.

00:20:25.514 --> 00:20:28.035
And then so like this area of the

00:20:28.075 --> 00:20:31.076
page is editable from some kind of like

00:20:31.416 --> 00:20:33.217
a back end kind of thing through this

00:20:33.277 --> 00:20:33.958
JavaScript thing,

00:20:33.978 --> 00:20:34.998
and it would actually write

00:20:35.357 --> 00:20:38.161
changes to the HTML, right?

00:20:38.220 --> 00:20:39.961
And that was like the thing that I

00:20:39.981 --> 00:20:42.364
would do if somebody needed to update

00:20:42.443 --> 00:20:44.966
their site on their own,

00:20:45.066 --> 00:20:46.267
was write that in.

00:20:46.406 --> 00:20:48.649
And I was like, when I found WordPress,

00:20:48.669 --> 00:20:50.931
it's like, okay, so that's easier.

00:20:51.171 --> 00:20:52.692
There's so much more stuff here.

00:20:53.212 --> 00:20:53.613
Like,

00:20:53.692 --> 00:20:55.414
why am I ever doing anything else like

00:20:55.454 --> 00:20:55.674
that?

00:20:56.816 --> 00:20:57.615
And I think there was a period of

00:20:57.655 --> 00:20:58.457
time where I'm like, okay,

00:20:58.656 --> 00:21:00.317
let's make sure I'm doing the right thing.

00:21:00.337 --> 00:21:02.719
And I tried all the other CMSs and

00:21:02.759 --> 00:21:04.239
installed them and gave them a go.

00:21:04.359 --> 00:21:06.740
And I think Expression Engine was a thing

00:21:06.780 --> 00:21:07.941
that was big at the time.

00:21:07.961 --> 00:21:11.784
You know what I even tried for some

00:21:11.824 --> 00:21:12.183
reason?

00:21:12.423 --> 00:21:13.204
ColdFusion.

00:21:13.404 --> 00:21:14.265
I don't know if you remember that.

00:21:14.445 --> 00:21:15.105
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:21:16.374 --> 00:21:17.874
I don't think I ever tried cold fusion.

00:21:17.914 --> 00:21:19.936
That seems a little bit too daunting.

00:21:20.136 --> 00:21:20.857
Giant book.

00:21:20.877 --> 00:21:23.640
And I was like, that seems cool.

00:21:23.960 --> 00:21:25.181
There was something cool about it,

00:21:25.240 --> 00:21:26.981
but everything was just like more

00:21:27.021 --> 00:21:27.583
complicated.

00:21:27.942 --> 00:21:28.583
Yeah.

00:21:28.722 --> 00:21:29.864
Yeah.

00:21:30.204 --> 00:21:30.305
Yeah.

00:21:30.464 --> 00:21:30.964
And I mean, you know,

00:21:30.984 --> 00:21:32.066
when I think about like, you know,

00:21:32.125 --> 00:21:33.787
I work at Pantheon and obviously we do,

00:21:34.027 --> 00:21:34.188
um,

00:21:34.968 --> 00:21:36.048
Drupal and WordPress.

00:21:36.068 --> 00:21:36.690
And even now,

00:21:36.870 --> 00:21:39.412
I talk to Drupal developers and I've gone

00:21:39.492 --> 00:21:40.693
to a couple of Drupal events and it's

00:21:40.733 --> 00:21:41.253
like, okay,

00:21:42.154 --> 00:21:45.397
I get what Drupal is good at.

00:21:45.939 --> 00:21:48.701
It's also not the thing that I would

00:21:49.322 --> 00:21:50.623
use because it is...

00:21:52.274 --> 00:21:53.134
There's a learning curve.

00:21:53.154 --> 00:21:54.515
There's a very steep learning curve.

00:21:54.755 --> 00:21:58.115
Or there's a whole category of

00:21:58.195 --> 00:22:00.656
professionals that exist in the Drupal

00:22:00.777 --> 00:22:03.198
ecosystem that WordPress has never had

00:22:03.577 --> 00:22:04.778
because it's never needed it.

00:22:04.818 --> 00:22:07.078
Because it's just the people that manage

00:22:07.598 --> 00:22:09.339
the website.

00:22:09.660 --> 00:22:11.560
Not the people that put the content into

00:22:11.580 --> 00:22:12.040
the website,

00:22:12.441 --> 00:22:13.982
But the people that manage the

00:22:14.022 --> 00:22:16.845
configuration and structure of the

00:22:16.884 --> 00:22:19.007
website, that's the category of people.

00:22:19.646 --> 00:22:20.688
We talk about in WordPress,

00:22:20.807 --> 00:22:22.709
there's sort of site builders and maybe

00:22:22.729 --> 00:22:23.989
they're not writing the content or

00:22:24.009 --> 00:22:26.211
whatever, but you don't really need that.

00:22:26.872 --> 00:22:31.476
It's generally speaking accessible enough

00:22:31.516 --> 00:22:32.395
for anyone.

00:22:32.435 --> 00:22:34.238
So I totally relate to what you're saying,

00:22:34.397 --> 00:22:35.858
obviously, we're both here.

00:22:36.499 --> 00:22:37.900
But, yeah,

00:22:37.999 --> 00:22:41.002
I'm always interested in the

00:22:41.063 --> 00:22:43.525
decision-making process that leads people

00:22:43.585 --> 00:22:46.387
to like kind of stick with a thing

00:22:46.448 --> 00:22:48.389
for as long as, I mean,

00:22:48.509 --> 00:22:49.489
you and I both have.

00:22:50.250 --> 00:22:52.231
I think it's like WordPress made the

00:22:52.271 --> 00:22:53.874
decisions for me.

00:22:53.953 --> 00:22:54.453
What I mean is...

00:22:55.481 --> 00:22:57.281
every time I tried to get something to

00:22:57.342 --> 00:22:58.782
happen in WordPress, it happened.

00:22:59.163 --> 00:23:00.742
Like I was able to make it happen

00:23:00.883 --> 00:23:01.482
more or less.

00:23:01.982 --> 00:23:03.462
Whereas in other platforms,

00:23:03.663 --> 00:23:04.643
I wasn't able to.

00:23:05.124 --> 00:23:08.443
So I kept choosing the one that enabled

00:23:08.463 --> 00:23:09.964
me to do what I wanted to do.

00:23:10.924 --> 00:23:15.086
I am what I call a fake developer.

00:23:15.466 --> 00:23:20.205
And what I mean is I sat at

00:23:20.246 --> 00:23:21.886
some point in writing code and I hated

00:23:21.906 --> 00:23:21.987
it.

00:23:22.346 --> 00:23:22.807
I hated it.

00:23:23.607 --> 00:23:24.328
I don't want to do that.

00:23:24.729 --> 00:23:26.289
I want to get things together.

00:23:26.509 --> 00:23:28.111
I love tech and I understand it.

00:23:28.151 --> 00:23:30.532
So that makes me really annoying because

00:23:30.653 --> 00:23:34.056
like back on things from I've managed

00:23:34.095 --> 00:23:34.977
development teams.

00:23:35.017 --> 00:23:38.818
And so I've learned about that, but, um,

00:23:38.839 --> 00:23:39.999
I'll never be the one sitting in writing

00:23:40.059 --> 00:23:40.421
code.

00:23:40.500 --> 00:23:42.922
So I want to work with a platform

00:23:42.942 --> 00:23:44.884
that allows me this like weird fake

00:23:44.963 --> 00:23:47.566
developer type person to achieve what I

00:23:47.586 --> 00:23:48.227
want to achieve.

00:23:48.346 --> 00:23:50.087
And, and that,

00:23:50.188 --> 00:23:51.229
and it was always WordPress.

00:23:52.586 --> 00:23:54.749
yeah the thing that that kept me around

00:23:54.889 --> 00:23:57.971
was uh especially at the beginning was

00:23:58.032 --> 00:23:59.514
anytime i had a question about how to

00:23:59.554 --> 00:24:03.097
do x there was always an answer whether

00:24:03.117 --> 00:24:04.598
it was whether it was in the codex

00:24:04.699 --> 00:24:06.981
or a blog post or something like i

00:24:07.001 --> 00:24:08.282
there was always an answer somewhere

00:24:09.044 --> 00:24:10.825
whereas whenever i use something else

00:24:11.739 --> 00:24:14.041
maybe there is an answer or maybe there

00:24:14.061 --> 00:24:15.803
wasn't or maybe there was a forum but

00:24:15.843 --> 00:24:17.503
maybe that forum hasn't been posted to in

00:24:17.544 --> 00:24:19.986
three months like right like it was never

00:24:20.026 --> 00:24:21.606
it was never consistent but wordpress was

00:24:21.646 --> 00:24:24.949
always consistent for sure and now you're

00:24:24.989 --> 00:24:26.530
the head of wordpress what does that mean

00:24:26.550 --> 00:24:32.194
so it's a nice segue right speaking of

00:24:32.214 --> 00:24:36.478
which it is the nice segue so what

00:24:36.498 --> 00:24:38.778
does it mean well i

00:24:39.999 --> 00:24:41.620
I was at like Elementor for like six

00:24:41.660 --> 00:24:43.901
months and then the founders said,

00:24:44.902 --> 00:24:46.282
would you like to take on this position?

00:24:47.022 --> 00:24:48.223
We don't know what to call it.

00:24:49.624 --> 00:24:51.144
And we don't exactly have a job

00:24:51.164 --> 00:24:51.665
description.

00:24:51.885 --> 00:24:55.188
We know we need someone like you doing

00:24:55.347 --> 00:24:56.248
something like this.

00:24:58.769 --> 00:25:00.230
And what do you think?

00:25:00.611 --> 00:25:00.790
So,

00:25:03.993 --> 00:25:05.434
How was the position pitched?

00:25:05.716 --> 00:25:09.459
What were the things that they knew that

00:25:09.479 --> 00:25:11.160
they needed?

00:25:11.180 --> 00:25:13.301
So I could see after joining.

00:25:13.561 --> 00:25:13.782
Actually,

00:25:13.803 --> 00:25:15.344
I could even see before joining from the

00:25:15.403 --> 00:25:15.924
outside.

00:25:18.866 --> 00:25:21.528
Elementor, their flagship product,

00:25:21.548 --> 00:25:22.851
the page builder, editor,

00:25:22.871 --> 00:25:23.951
whatever you want to call it,

00:25:25.393 --> 00:25:26.534
is obviously very popular.

00:25:26.673 --> 00:25:27.694
It's the most popular plugin.

00:25:27.795 --> 00:25:30.156
It powers over twenty million sites.

00:25:31.586 --> 00:25:33.646
Um, from the beginning it caught on and,

00:25:34.008 --> 00:25:35.087
uh, grew quite quickly,

00:25:36.389 --> 00:25:40.990
but as the company grew and hired talent

00:25:41.111 --> 00:25:42.191
and the people at the company are very

00:25:42.231 --> 00:25:42.632
talented,

00:25:42.811 --> 00:25:45.012
they didn't come from within WordPress.

00:25:46.173 --> 00:25:50.296
So you had the founders who are WordPressy

00:25:50.336 --> 00:25:52.197
people, but you know, they're founders,

00:25:52.217 --> 00:25:54.738
so they can only be so involved in

00:25:56.378 --> 00:25:58.900
community related, you know,

00:25:59.141 --> 00:26:00.020
ecosystem stuff.

00:26:02.031 --> 00:26:03.433
Um, and, and the,

00:26:04.074 --> 00:26:04.954
the rest of the team,

00:26:05.614 --> 00:26:07.136
they came from other tech companies,

00:26:07.257 --> 00:26:08.617
you know, um,

00:26:08.718 --> 00:26:10.338
and not necessarily even from open source.

00:26:10.980 --> 00:26:12.761
And when you're working in open source,

00:26:13.301 --> 00:26:16.924
there's definitely like a culture to that,

00:26:17.526 --> 00:26:17.826
you know?

00:26:18.425 --> 00:26:20.168
Um, and

00:26:21.588 --> 00:26:23.851
There were a few things that were lacking.

00:26:23.891 --> 00:26:25.592
It's not just community.

00:26:25.612 --> 00:26:25.971
It's like,

00:26:26.392 --> 00:26:29.554
how do we communicate with all the levels

00:26:29.594 --> 00:26:32.635
of the ecosystem and how are our

00:26:32.675 --> 00:26:35.939
relationships with all of the companies

00:26:35.979 --> 00:26:38.239
essentially that are contributing to

00:26:38.841 --> 00:26:40.842
WordPress by creating other products where

00:26:40.862 --> 00:26:42.143
we have shared users?

00:26:44.324 --> 00:26:45.265
How do we make sure?

00:26:45.941 --> 00:26:48.761
Always that the way that we're deploying

00:26:48.902 --> 00:26:51.983
our products to the repo is one thousand

00:26:52.003 --> 00:26:53.683
percent aligned with the guidelines.

00:26:55.005 --> 00:26:56.986
There were some missteps before I took on

00:26:57.026 --> 00:26:58.645
this position and it wasn't out of.

00:27:00.426 --> 00:27:02.288
It wasn't because they were trying they

00:27:02.327 --> 00:27:04.229
trying to not meet the guidelines.

00:27:04.268 --> 00:27:06.088
It was because there wasn't really someone

00:27:06.389 --> 00:27:08.089
who could fully be on top of it

00:27:08.529 --> 00:27:11.230
and or something that I do on an

00:27:11.250 --> 00:27:11.951
ongoing basis.

00:27:12.751 --> 00:27:14.732
Check with the plugin team.

00:27:15.841 --> 00:27:18.422
whenever we want to implement something in

00:27:18.441 --> 00:27:20.761
the plugin that we think should be

00:27:20.801 --> 00:27:22.102
reviewed and to make sure that it really

00:27:22.142 --> 00:27:22.982
aligns with the guidelines.

00:27:23.343 --> 00:27:24.883
And only if they say, yes, that's okay,

00:27:24.922 --> 00:27:26.503
do we go ahead with it.

00:27:26.524 --> 00:27:29.483
You don't want to ever be doing something

00:27:29.503 --> 00:27:30.163
that's not okay.

00:27:30.503 --> 00:27:33.124
So we're super careful and that's

00:27:33.164 --> 00:27:34.505
something.

00:27:34.585 --> 00:27:37.586
Also setting up our Five for the Future

00:27:37.625 --> 00:27:38.125
program.

00:27:39.287 --> 00:27:40.707
That was an interesting process for me.

00:27:42.204 --> 00:27:44.826
I had to research all of that and

00:27:44.905 --> 00:27:47.207
figure out where we can even do that.

00:27:47.646 --> 00:27:48.807
First, we had to figure out internally,

00:27:48.867 --> 00:27:53.329
are we going to align or just contribute

00:27:53.410 --> 00:27:56.230
internal resources like people time?

00:27:56.290 --> 00:27:57.310
But we couldn't.

00:27:58.451 --> 00:27:59.572
Everyone was too tight.

00:28:00.132 --> 00:28:03.574
So then the decision was to sponsor

00:28:03.594 --> 00:28:04.014
contributors.

00:28:04.094 --> 00:28:05.055
Okay, but how do we do that?

00:28:05.174 --> 00:28:06.315
How do we sponsor contributors in a

00:28:06.335 --> 00:28:07.015
meaningful way?

00:28:07.655 --> 00:28:08.615
Which teams need

00:28:10.739 --> 00:28:12.040
So I had like I spoke to a

00:28:12.080 --> 00:28:15.061
ton of people in the community, you know,

00:28:15.102 --> 00:28:18.444
from the contribution related teams on

00:28:18.484 --> 00:28:20.546
WordPress.org to contributors themselves

00:28:20.605 --> 00:28:22.826
to figure out how we could start.

00:28:22.886 --> 00:28:25.469
I think the first sponsor contributor was

00:28:25.548 --> 00:28:26.910
on the performance team because at that

00:28:26.950 --> 00:28:29.330
time that was a big pain point.

00:28:29.730 --> 00:28:29.810
Oh,

00:28:29.931 --> 00:28:32.833
and Google was working on it and they

00:28:32.913 --> 00:28:34.173
asked us if we want to like work

00:28:34.213 --> 00:28:35.734
on it with them and like make,

00:28:35.874 --> 00:28:36.895
you know, help with that team.

00:28:36.935 --> 00:28:37.915
So that's where we started.

00:28:37.976 --> 00:28:39.037
It seemed like a good opportunity.

00:28:39.932 --> 00:28:41.173
Good place to fill in the blanks.

00:28:42.154 --> 00:28:43.655
And then grew it from there.

00:28:44.395 --> 00:28:44.915
At this point,

00:28:45.457 --> 00:28:48.038
we have contributors to performance,

00:28:48.439 --> 00:28:53.162
plug-in review, theme review, hosting, AI,

00:28:54.202 --> 00:28:55.303
and I think something else,

00:28:55.363 --> 00:28:56.223
but I can't remember.

00:28:56.784 --> 00:29:00.787
And I manage that and stay in touch

00:29:00.807 --> 00:29:01.688
with them on an ongoing basis,

00:29:01.728 --> 00:29:04.028
get reports on what's being done to try

00:29:04.068 --> 00:29:04.529
to make sure that

00:29:05.686 --> 00:29:06.948
Our contribution is valuable.

00:29:07.008 --> 00:29:09.370
So that was another thing.

00:29:09.550 --> 00:29:14.095
And it's generally anything related to

00:29:14.275 --> 00:29:15.455
Elementor within WordPress.

00:29:15.516 --> 00:29:18.078
It's a very broad position.

00:29:18.098 --> 00:29:20.220
It involves also partnership type of

00:29:20.260 --> 00:29:20.661
activity,

00:29:21.501 --> 00:29:24.044
whether it's with a dollar sign attached

00:29:24.104 --> 00:29:24.344
or not.

00:29:26.256 --> 00:29:29.176
I've kind of become the face of Elementor

00:29:29.297 --> 00:29:30.197
within the community.

00:29:30.277 --> 00:29:33.159
So that's helpful for people who are

00:29:33.199 --> 00:29:34.699
trying to reach out to Elementor and

00:29:34.719 --> 00:29:35.419
having a hard time.

00:29:35.818 --> 00:29:37.259
That was very much the case before I

00:29:37.299 --> 00:29:37.920
took on the position.

00:29:37.999 --> 00:29:38.180
Like,

00:29:38.220 --> 00:29:39.040
if you want to talk to someone at

00:29:39.060 --> 00:29:40.240
Elementor, like, good luck.

00:29:40.740 --> 00:29:41.381
It wasn't, again,

00:29:41.401 --> 00:29:43.001
that they didn't want to be talked to.

00:29:43.602 --> 00:29:45.883
It was that there wasn't someone to do

00:29:45.903 --> 00:29:46.123
that.

00:29:46.643 --> 00:29:48.024
So people reach out to me directly.

00:29:48.084 --> 00:29:49.723
They find me wherever or they know me.

00:29:50.345 --> 00:29:51.805
And it's different kinds of questions.

00:29:52.525 --> 00:29:52.966
They want to...

00:29:54.362 --> 00:29:54.662
you know,

00:29:54.701 --> 00:29:56.222
increased compatibility with Elementor and

00:29:56.242 --> 00:29:59.966
they like need some dev input or they

00:30:00.006 --> 00:30:01.846
created something for Elementor and they

00:30:01.866 --> 00:30:03.488
want to show a test and like whatever,

00:30:03.587 --> 00:30:05.889
or like there's hosting companies,

00:30:05.929 --> 00:30:06.529
they're like,

00:30:06.870 --> 00:30:08.010
they're encountering some issue.

00:30:08.530 --> 00:30:08.911
In the past,

00:30:09.412 --> 00:30:11.413
that kind of communication was full of

00:30:11.432 --> 00:30:11.853
friction.

00:30:12.493 --> 00:30:13.874
Now we have a lot of shared Slack

00:30:13.893 --> 00:30:16.195
channels with a lot of partner companies

00:30:16.236 --> 00:30:17.656
in the space and it's great.

00:30:18.136 --> 00:30:20.238
We can really like make sure that all

00:30:20.258 --> 00:30:22.319
of our shared users have good experiences.

00:30:23.300 --> 00:30:24.882
Um, yeah, I don't know.

00:30:25.162 --> 00:30:26.323
It's like, it's so many things.

00:30:26.462 --> 00:30:26.722
I,

00:30:26.782 --> 00:30:28.002
at some point I started documenting what I

00:30:28.022 --> 00:30:28.604
do because I was like,

00:30:28.624 --> 00:30:29.104
what am I doing?

00:30:31.505 --> 00:30:32.826
But, um, but it's,

00:30:32.885 --> 00:30:34.686
it's always interesting because things are

00:30:34.707 --> 00:30:35.267
always changing.

00:30:36.268 --> 00:30:38.489
Um, and I'm always learning.

00:30:38.628 --> 00:30:40.028
So yeah, it's,

00:30:40.108 --> 00:30:41.049
it's an interesting position.

00:30:42.128 --> 00:30:44.530
I know that for me,

00:30:44.711 --> 00:30:46.432
as a developer advocate,

00:30:46.952 --> 00:30:49.476
I went from being on an engineering team

00:30:49.536 --> 00:30:51.356
where what I do in a day or

00:30:51.396 --> 00:30:54.700
in a week is very specific.

00:30:54.739 --> 00:30:56.342
It's like we have these sprint goals,

00:30:56.382 --> 00:30:57.623
we have these specific tickets,

00:30:57.702 --> 00:30:59.884
we have a cadence.

00:31:00.566 --> 00:31:02.027
This stuff needs to get done by this

00:31:02.066 --> 00:31:02.386
date,

00:31:02.547 --> 00:31:04.950
and that's just what you're working on.

00:31:05.529 --> 00:31:08.353
And in developer relations, that's...

00:31:09.868 --> 00:31:12.289
kind of a lot more wibbly wobbly timey

00:31:12.349 --> 00:31:14.591
wimey like you kind of have to like

00:31:14.631 --> 00:31:17.352
it really demands that you are

00:31:17.451 --> 00:31:18.932
self-motivated because otherwise you're

00:31:18.952 --> 00:31:20.113
just going to be twiddling your thumbs and

00:31:20.153 --> 00:31:22.473
like who knows what what oh totally how

00:31:22.493 --> 00:31:24.035
are you going to prioritize this thing

00:31:24.075 --> 00:31:26.095
over that thing or whatever or you'll just

00:31:26.115 --> 00:31:27.195
get pulled in a million different

00:31:27.216 --> 00:31:28.576
directions and never be able to focus on

00:31:28.616 --> 00:31:30.857
anything and context switching is already

00:31:30.938 --> 00:31:34.038
like you know huge like i imagine that

00:31:34.378 --> 00:31:36.839
is pretty similar for you as well so

00:31:36.880 --> 00:31:38.161
how do you sort of like

00:31:39.262 --> 00:31:39.422
Yeah,

00:31:39.482 --> 00:31:41.825
prioritize what it is that you're thinking

00:31:41.845 --> 00:31:43.006
about in any given day.

00:31:44.026 --> 00:31:44.727
My gosh, totally.

00:31:44.767 --> 00:31:45.207
So first of all,

00:31:45.227 --> 00:31:46.188
you have to be a self-starter.

00:31:46.327 --> 00:31:47.689
At least I have to be also.

00:31:49.170 --> 00:31:50.351
It's sort of like in many ways,

00:31:50.371 --> 00:31:51.791
it's sort of entrepreneurial, isn't it?

00:31:52.311 --> 00:31:52.893
Oh, totally.

00:31:52.932 --> 00:31:53.992
Which is amazing.

00:31:54.213 --> 00:31:56.275
And I I've said that internally, actually,

00:31:56.315 --> 00:31:59.777
that I actually didn't know how I was

00:31:59.797 --> 00:32:01.818
going to last at Elementor,

00:32:01.838 --> 00:32:03.319
not because of them,

00:32:03.499 --> 00:32:05.842
but because I had never been an employee

00:32:05.862 --> 00:32:06.201
before.

00:32:08.555 --> 00:32:12.797
And I was afraid of like that what

00:32:12.817 --> 00:32:14.018
would happen is why I had never been

00:32:14.038 --> 00:32:14.298
an employee,

00:32:14.318 --> 00:32:15.680
which is that people would start telling

00:32:15.700 --> 00:32:16.180
me what to do.

00:32:16.420 --> 00:32:17.201
Not that I don't.

00:32:17.701 --> 00:32:19.622
I love getting feedback and input and

00:32:19.642 --> 00:32:20.022
direction.

00:32:20.103 --> 00:32:20.462
I love it.

00:32:20.543 --> 00:32:22.764
But when someone's like, you must do this,

00:32:22.784 --> 00:32:23.525
you must do that.

00:32:23.565 --> 00:32:24.746
And like, I don't know,

00:32:24.786 --> 00:32:25.405
that kind of thing,

00:32:25.425 --> 00:32:26.727
which is what I figured it's like to

00:32:26.747 --> 00:32:27.247
be an employee.

00:32:27.307 --> 00:32:28.528
I was just like, it's not for me.

00:32:28.567 --> 00:32:30.729
But this position is very entrepreneurial.

00:32:31.069 --> 00:32:33.191
And a lot of what I do feels

00:32:33.211 --> 00:32:34.311
like what I did when I was the

00:32:34.372 --> 00:32:35.833
CEO of Stratik.

00:32:36.669 --> 00:32:37.348
Um,

00:32:37.368 --> 00:32:40.190
because a lot of work of leading a

00:32:40.249 --> 00:32:41.509
company and just, um,

00:32:41.749 --> 00:32:43.670
just to put that just a disclaimer,

00:32:43.730 --> 00:32:45.451
I'm not saying that I'm leading Elementor

00:32:45.591 --> 00:32:46.050
at all.

00:32:46.330 --> 00:32:46.871
I am not.

00:32:47.510 --> 00:32:51.152
But when I was leading a company, I,

00:32:51.392 --> 00:32:53.011
a lot of it was very relationship driven

00:32:53.992 --> 00:32:54.793
and also very,

00:32:54.992 --> 00:32:57.133
a lot of like staying current on

00:32:57.413 --> 00:33:00.393
developments, competitive, you know, um,

00:33:00.413 --> 00:33:01.014
developments.

00:33:02.361 --> 00:33:03.842
tech, all that kind of stuff.

00:33:03.862 --> 00:33:04.962
It was like a combination of both.

00:33:05.022 --> 00:33:06.503
And I do a lot of that now.

00:33:06.683 --> 00:33:09.105
I actually create an internal weekly

00:33:09.164 --> 00:33:11.227
newsletter about AI and WordPress now,

00:33:11.366 --> 00:33:11.846
for example,

00:33:12.467 --> 00:33:14.749
to keep everyone up to date on where

00:33:14.768 --> 00:33:15.449
it's going,

00:33:16.349 --> 00:33:17.691
what other companies are developing,

00:33:18.211 --> 00:33:18.911
to bring that all together.

00:33:18.990 --> 00:33:21.333
I think that the more information anyone

00:33:21.373 --> 00:33:21.613
has,

00:33:21.793 --> 00:33:23.173
the better the decisions they can make.

00:33:23.374 --> 00:33:25.055
And that's how I was a CEO.

00:33:25.174 --> 00:33:27.836
And that's kind of what I'm doing now.

00:33:29.160 --> 00:33:30.161
So a lot of what I do is

00:33:30.601 --> 00:33:32.942
self-starter type stuff where I just see a

00:33:32.962 --> 00:33:36.425
need and I work to fill that gap.

00:33:36.826 --> 00:33:37.466
In the beginning,

00:33:37.486 --> 00:33:38.906
there was a lot of stuff that I

00:33:38.926 --> 00:33:43.029
was trying to fix, like, you know,

00:33:43.069 --> 00:33:44.451
our Fly for the Future program,

00:33:44.611 --> 00:33:46.232
even how we sponsored WordCamps.

00:33:46.432 --> 00:33:46.452
I...

00:33:48.197 --> 00:33:49.598
It wasn't my vibe.

00:33:49.639 --> 00:33:51.220
Let's just say that.

00:33:51.259 --> 00:33:51.800
I didn't like it.

00:33:52.201 --> 00:33:54.222
I wanted us to be more involved.

00:33:55.344 --> 00:33:57.566
I was the first person to speak on

00:33:57.586 --> 00:33:58.366
behalf of Elementor.

00:33:58.507 --> 00:33:59.346
They had never had speakers.

00:34:00.632 --> 00:34:02.073
But then I created a program encouraging

00:34:02.093 --> 00:34:02.893
other people to apply to speak.

00:34:02.913 --> 00:34:04.374
And now I'm not the only speaker,

00:34:04.674 --> 00:34:05.336
which is amazing.

00:34:07.176 --> 00:34:08.178
So there's like a lot of things that

00:34:08.198 --> 00:34:08.397
I, oh,

00:34:08.458 --> 00:34:10.660
also I wanted us to sponsor other

00:34:10.700 --> 00:34:11.480
WordCamps around the world,

00:34:11.499 --> 00:34:12.681
even if we're not going there just to

00:34:12.720 --> 00:34:13.201
support them.

00:34:13.622 --> 00:34:15.743
So set up like a process and like

00:34:15.784 --> 00:34:16.403
a way to do that.

00:34:17.845 --> 00:34:20.487
I'm very fortunate that the company and

00:34:20.507 --> 00:34:22.889
the leadership basically like just support

00:34:23.169 --> 00:34:24.789
and believe in me and trust me.

00:34:24.849 --> 00:34:28.272
So the message to me more or less

00:34:28.313 --> 00:34:29.032
is you do you.

00:34:30.642 --> 00:34:31.403
now go forth.

00:34:32.043 --> 00:34:34.805
So and I report to the CEO.

00:34:36.145 --> 00:34:37.047
And, you know,

00:34:37.106 --> 00:34:39.169
I love when I get direction and feedback

00:34:39.189 --> 00:34:39.930
and ideas from him,

00:34:40.049 --> 00:34:42.270
but mostly I'm just doing what I think

00:34:42.310 --> 00:34:42.612
I should do.

00:34:42.672 --> 00:34:45.134
So there's like stuff that I maintain.

00:34:46.768 --> 00:34:48.949
And then there's stuff that comes up that

00:34:48.989 --> 00:34:49.609
needs attention.

00:34:49.670 --> 00:34:50.410
So obviously,

00:34:50.489 --> 00:34:52.470
and especially if it's like critical,

00:34:52.830 --> 00:34:53.892
that will get priority.

00:34:55.232 --> 00:34:56.752
And then there's just new challenges or

00:34:56.814 --> 00:34:59.535
relationships or things or whatever that

00:35:00.394 --> 00:35:02.557
come my way that I pick up.

00:35:03.336 --> 00:35:05.157
Attending events on behalf of Elementor,

00:35:05.258 --> 00:35:07.239
that also is something that wasn't really

00:35:07.259 --> 00:35:07.859
happening before.

00:35:08.039 --> 00:35:09.299
I think it's important for us to have

00:35:09.780 --> 00:35:11.862
like an actual person at these events.

00:35:11.922 --> 00:35:13.442
Elementor is such a significant player

00:35:14.970 --> 00:35:15.992
that, for example, at CloudFest,

00:35:16.274 --> 00:35:18.237
which I'm not at because I couldn't get

00:35:18.257 --> 00:35:18.678
there in the end.

00:35:18.698 --> 00:35:21.343
But we should be at CloudFest.

00:35:21.383 --> 00:35:23.046
We're a leading web company.

00:35:23.266 --> 00:35:24.147
How can we not be there?

00:35:24.188 --> 00:35:26.091
So I started going on behalf of Elementor.

00:35:28.546 --> 00:35:31.328
Yeah, it's a great position.

00:35:31.348 --> 00:35:33.730
I'm very fortunate that I have the backing

00:35:33.750 --> 00:35:36.294
and belief of the company's leadership and

00:35:37.114 --> 00:35:40.679
that it allows me to bring to fruition

00:35:40.699 --> 00:35:42.540
my entrepreneurial spirit,

00:35:42.961 --> 00:35:44.663
which I think would be hard if I

00:35:44.683 --> 00:35:44.943
couldn't.

00:35:46.628 --> 00:35:48.691
You mentioned five for the future and and

00:35:48.750 --> 00:35:50.971
sponsoring word camps and things and.

00:35:52.534 --> 00:35:55.715
wearing my wp Community collective

00:35:55.795 --> 00:35:57.217
President hat for a minute.

00:35:58.418 --> 00:36:01.280
Like obviously you know sponsored

00:36:01.320 --> 00:36:05.382
contribution or contribution with with

00:36:05.443 --> 00:36:06.184
compensation.

00:36:07.128 --> 00:36:09.130
And sponsorships in general like this is

00:36:09.570 --> 00:36:11.072
like it shouldn't be a controversial

00:36:11.132 --> 00:36:11.994
topic, but yet,

00:36:12.134 --> 00:36:14.155
like a lot of companies that are using

00:36:14.195 --> 00:36:15.878
wordpress aren't necessarily giving back

00:36:15.918 --> 00:36:18.039
to the ecosystem or going back to the

00:36:18.599 --> 00:36:21.003
open source project itself like.

00:36:21.559 --> 00:36:23.780
talk through that conversation within

00:36:23.840 --> 00:36:25.481
Elementor of like building up this

00:36:25.521 --> 00:36:26.960
program, which like,

00:36:27.460 --> 00:36:33.362
how do you see contribution in how it

00:36:33.382 --> 00:36:34.882
works at Elementor and how does like

00:36:35.282 --> 00:36:38.103
leadership or your CEO that you report to,

00:36:38.123 --> 00:36:41.784
like how does that sort of internal like

00:36:41.963 --> 00:36:44.844
financial math align with like the

00:36:44.985 --> 00:36:46.465
ideological goal of like, yeah,

00:36:46.485 --> 00:36:48.224
we need to actually contribute back to

00:36:48.244 --> 00:36:49.706
this thing that we're like essentially

00:36:49.786 --> 00:36:50.445
profiting off of?

00:36:54.027 --> 00:36:57.469
so they knew that they wanted to set

00:36:57.489 --> 00:36:58.769
up a fight for the future program like

00:36:58.829 --> 00:37:00.911
when they it wasn't like i had even

00:37:00.931 --> 00:37:02.592
brought it up or someone i don't know

00:37:02.691 --> 00:37:04.052
what the internal conversation was i had

00:37:04.092 --> 00:37:05.454
been there not that long i was still

00:37:05.594 --> 00:37:06.835
trying to figure out who i am and

00:37:06.894 --> 00:37:07.655
what i am and all that kind of

00:37:07.675 --> 00:37:10.036
stuff um i don't remember that we had

00:37:10.077 --> 00:37:11.396
actually discussed fighting for the future

00:37:11.556 --> 00:37:12.697
i think it was probably something that i

00:37:12.757 --> 00:37:13.798
felt like they should set up but i

00:37:13.838 --> 00:37:15.179
also didn't think it was necessarily my

00:37:15.219 --> 00:37:16.720
place to bring it up like i didn't

00:37:16.740 --> 00:37:19.702
know how much i could you know flag

00:37:19.722 --> 00:37:20.623
things sure yeah

00:37:21.688 --> 00:37:23.909
It turns out that Elementor is very much

00:37:23.949 --> 00:37:25.150
a company where you can express your

00:37:25.170 --> 00:37:25.831
opinion.

00:37:25.851 --> 00:37:26.510
But I had to learn that.

00:37:27.070 --> 00:37:29.952
Yeah, it's great.

00:37:30.393 --> 00:37:31.934
So that was actually the first thing that

00:37:31.954 --> 00:37:32.655
they tasked me with.

00:37:33.335 --> 00:37:34.235
Get us set up, please,

00:37:34.295 --> 00:37:35.757
with a Five for the Future program.

00:37:35.836 --> 00:37:37.378
They didn't say how, except for,

00:37:37.398 --> 00:37:38.197
like I mentioned,

00:37:38.217 --> 00:37:39.759
when they said we're going to sponsor

00:37:39.778 --> 00:37:41.840
financially rather than internally.

00:37:43.342 --> 00:37:44.161
Go forth and do it.

00:37:46.302 --> 00:37:46.744
Why?

00:37:46.903 --> 00:37:47.985
Because it's the right thing to do.

00:37:49.284 --> 00:37:49.845
That's it.

00:37:49.865 --> 00:37:49.985
So

00:37:51.710 --> 00:37:53.793
When you have an open, and also,

00:37:55.054 --> 00:37:57.315
I think it's very much to the credit

00:37:57.356 --> 00:37:59.659
of Elementor's leadership that that's

00:37:59.679 --> 00:38:00.378
their perspective.

00:38:00.719 --> 00:38:02.001
They knew they needed to do this thing.

00:38:02.021 --> 00:38:02.941
They knew it was the right thing to

00:38:03.521 --> 00:38:03.762
do.

00:38:03.782 --> 00:38:06.405
They needed someone to just set it up

00:38:06.485 --> 00:38:10.409
properly, who is a WordPress-y person.

00:38:10.489 --> 00:38:12.349
That's what our CEO often says about me.

00:38:12.451 --> 00:38:13.251
I'm WordPress-y.

00:38:14.242 --> 00:38:16.103
And I think you understand what that

00:38:16.123 --> 00:38:16.403
means.

00:38:16.465 --> 00:38:17.704
I think others may think that sounds

00:38:17.744 --> 00:38:18.045
weird,

00:38:18.085 --> 00:38:21.987
but I live and breathe the ecosystem and

00:38:22.027 --> 00:38:24.110
I understand its nuances and you need

00:38:24.150 --> 00:38:25.630
someone like that, I think,

00:38:26.490 --> 00:38:28.092
especially in a large organization like

00:38:28.112 --> 00:38:28.432
Elementor.

00:38:28.452 --> 00:38:32.215
That's all about WordPress.

00:38:32.235 --> 00:38:35.016
So they knew it was the right thing

00:38:35.056 --> 00:38:35.456
to do.

00:38:35.757 --> 00:38:38.378
So when you have an open source product,

00:38:39.260 --> 00:38:42.722
I think a company ends up making some

00:38:42.762 --> 00:38:43.882
decisions based on,

00:38:45.985 --> 00:38:47.947
what is the right thing to do for

00:38:47.987 --> 00:38:49.566
that community at some point.

00:38:51.027 --> 00:38:53.007
It's not feasible for smaller

00:38:53.048 --> 00:38:53.809
organizations.

00:38:53.909 --> 00:38:55.769
It really often is not,

00:38:55.909 --> 00:38:56.869
no matter what anyone says.

00:38:58.590 --> 00:38:59.190
I know what it's like.

00:38:59.309 --> 00:39:00.771
When I was running my agency,

00:39:00.811 --> 00:39:02.992
we were just running from after projects.

00:39:03.012 --> 00:39:04.532
You just finish one, you're like,

00:39:04.552 --> 00:39:05.612
where's the next project going to come

00:39:05.632 --> 00:39:05.853
from?

00:39:06.193 --> 00:39:08.052
There's not much breathing room at all.

00:39:11.204 --> 00:39:12.606
So I think people need to be realistic

00:39:12.626 --> 00:39:13.826
about their expectations about who's

00:39:13.845 --> 00:39:14.347
contributing.

00:39:14.507 --> 00:39:15.086
Like, yes,

00:39:15.266 --> 00:39:18.208
that agency is profiting off of WordPress,

00:39:18.248 --> 00:39:21.130
but what does that mean?

00:39:21.289 --> 00:39:23.811
It means that maybe they can pay their

00:39:24.811 --> 00:39:26.693
other contractors or employees and maybe

00:39:26.733 --> 00:39:28.092
give themselves a living wage.

00:39:28.193 --> 00:39:28.693
You know what I mean?

00:39:28.733 --> 00:39:29.894
Like, often that's the case.

00:39:29.934 --> 00:39:31.655
So have a little sympathy.

00:39:33.963 --> 00:39:37.606
But once you have like a thriving open

00:39:37.626 --> 00:39:41.148
source product, then it becomes necessary.

00:39:41.329 --> 00:39:42.210
So there's like the,

00:39:42.610 --> 00:39:43.510
it's the right thing to do.

00:39:44.211 --> 00:39:46.552
But then I think if we're gonna look

00:39:46.572 --> 00:39:49.695
at it from like a dry financial

00:39:49.735 --> 00:39:50.356
perspective,

00:39:51.416 --> 00:39:55.920
companies invest a lot of money in things

00:39:55.960 --> 00:39:59.822
that don't have a direct ROI.

00:39:59.862 --> 00:40:01.985
For example, brand.

00:40:03.755 --> 00:40:04.556
Brand is critical.

00:40:04.996 --> 00:40:06.438
I have learned the importance of brands

00:40:06.458 --> 00:40:07.338
since joining Elementor.

00:40:07.757 --> 00:40:09.840
I was very cynical about it.

00:40:11.260 --> 00:40:13.041
And now I see how much it matters,

00:40:13.422 --> 00:40:16.503
how a brand, you know,

00:40:16.523 --> 00:40:17.824
you have to have a real product standing

00:40:17.844 --> 00:40:19.025
behind it that gives people value,

00:40:19.065 --> 00:40:20.545
but when you do that and you have

00:40:20.565 --> 00:40:22.066
a brand wrapping it up,

00:40:22.827 --> 00:40:25.128
it gives people a certain sentiment or

00:40:25.148 --> 00:40:26.490
they have a certain sentiment towards you

00:40:26.670 --> 00:40:29.652
and maintaining that, growing it,

00:40:30.673 --> 00:40:31.994
And investing is super important.

00:40:32.233 --> 00:40:34.655
So a company like Elementor invests a lot

00:40:34.695 --> 00:40:35.594
in brands also.

00:40:35.994 --> 00:40:39.095
And I think that you can say that

00:40:39.175 --> 00:40:42.398
investing in contributing back to open

00:40:42.438 --> 00:40:47.980
source is a brand investment to the

00:40:48.099 --> 00:40:48.719
ecosystem.

00:40:48.900 --> 00:40:50.740
It's like our brand is that we are

00:40:50.780 --> 00:40:54.461
collaborative, cooperative, contributing.

00:40:55.322 --> 00:40:56.423
We are doing the right thing and we

00:40:56.443 --> 00:40:58.364
are good citizens of the ecosystem.

00:40:59.771 --> 00:41:00.452
So that's,

00:41:00.552 --> 00:41:05.773
I think the business side argument that

00:41:05.793 --> 00:41:07.135
can be made for it.

00:41:07.175 --> 00:41:07.355
Yeah.

00:41:07.394 --> 00:41:07.554
I mean,

00:41:07.594 --> 00:41:09.755
obviously I'm involved in a lot of these

00:41:09.795 --> 00:41:10.835
conversations as well.

00:41:10.856 --> 00:41:13.958
Developer relations is very much in the

00:41:14.338 --> 00:41:19.460
sort of brand and less direct ROI sort

00:41:19.519 --> 00:41:20.719
of side of things,

00:41:20.780 --> 00:41:24.001
because like I've said this before,

00:41:24.121 --> 00:41:24.822
like internally,

00:41:24.862 --> 00:41:25.242
like the

00:41:26.090 --> 00:41:28.311
The stuff that DevRel produces,

00:41:28.331 --> 00:41:30.913
the content and the outputs that we

00:41:30.952 --> 00:41:31.353
produce,

00:41:32.052 --> 00:41:35.793
very often is maybe on a very long

00:41:35.833 --> 00:41:36.374
tail.

00:41:36.434 --> 00:41:37.735
I'm not going to write a blog post

00:41:37.755 --> 00:41:40.695
that's going to lead to five hundred

00:41:40.976 --> 00:41:41.717
incoming leads.

00:41:41.876 --> 00:41:43.476
I'm going to write a blog post that

00:41:43.496 --> 00:41:45.418
someone's going to read in two weeks,

00:41:45.878 --> 00:41:47.378
and then in six months they're going to

00:41:47.398 --> 00:41:48.858
remember that blog post that I wrote

00:41:48.878 --> 00:41:50.559
something smart about Pantheon doing

00:41:50.619 --> 00:41:51.139
something cool.

00:41:51.659 --> 00:41:52.920
and they're gonna be like oh well we're

00:41:52.940 --> 00:41:55.282
looking for something for this project

00:41:55.302 --> 00:41:57.264
that we're that we're coming to and maybe

00:41:57.304 --> 00:41:59.007
they'll be part of the conversation right

00:41:59.047 --> 00:42:02.088
like yeah i i always get like whenever

00:42:02.490 --> 00:42:04.532
when roi comes into the conversation about

00:42:04.572 --> 00:42:06.612
like sponsorships or about like open

00:42:06.652 --> 00:42:09.655
source uh good samaritism good

00:42:09.755 --> 00:42:13.659
samaritanism or like whatever uh like

00:42:14.199 --> 00:42:14.659
Yeah,

00:42:14.740 --> 00:42:16.539
it's already like I just like I just

00:42:16.800 --> 00:42:18.561
smirk like whenever I hear ROI in those

00:42:18.581 --> 00:42:19.101
conversations,

00:42:19.161 --> 00:42:21.101
because like you're not going to get ROI

00:42:21.121 --> 00:42:21.981
from any of that stuff.

00:42:22.320 --> 00:42:23.422
But what you're going to get is something

00:42:23.461 --> 00:42:24.101
intangible.

00:42:25.242 --> 00:42:28.461
And John Hawkins was on a few episodes

00:42:28.481 --> 00:42:31.003
ago and he he said that.

00:42:31.443 --> 00:42:34.483
So John Hawkins used to lead a or

00:42:34.523 --> 00:42:37.003
co-lead a an agency, and they spent,

00:42:37.344 --> 00:42:37.644
I think,

00:42:37.804 --> 00:42:39.824
two years just going to every word camp

00:42:39.844 --> 00:42:40.804
that they possibly could.

00:42:42.105 --> 00:42:42.344
And

00:42:43.085 --> 00:42:43.867
It was wild.

00:42:43.907 --> 00:42:45.230
It was kind of insane.

00:42:47.134 --> 00:42:50.300
But what he said that he learned out

00:42:50.340 --> 00:42:51.402
of that is not ROI,

00:42:51.423 --> 00:42:52.726
it's return on connection.

00:42:53.563 --> 00:42:55.905
Because it's those connections that you

00:42:55.945 --> 00:42:57.827
get from those events,

00:42:57.867 --> 00:42:59.148
from meeting people and having the

00:42:59.188 --> 00:43:02.610
conversation in person leads to other

00:43:02.670 --> 00:43:03.130
opportunities.

00:43:03.170 --> 00:43:04.010
Maybe not today,

00:43:04.690 --> 00:43:06.552
but like he was saying that like he,

00:43:06.652 --> 00:43:08.914
they got leads and he has gotten leads

00:43:08.954 --> 00:43:11.315
that are like somebody he's never met

00:43:11.356 --> 00:43:14.398
before that someone he did meet talked to

00:43:14.458 --> 00:43:16.199
their friend and said, oh,

00:43:16.239 --> 00:43:17.259
you should talk to this person because

00:43:17.278 --> 00:43:18.199
they're doing something that's really

00:43:18.240 --> 00:43:19.121
similar to what you're looking for.

00:43:19.161 --> 00:43:19.380
And like,

00:43:19.400 --> 00:43:21.181
that doesn't exist if you're not like,

00:43:21.583 --> 00:43:22.923
having the conversation in the first

00:43:22.943 --> 00:43:23.204
place?

00:43:23.704 --> 00:43:24.304
Oh, totally.

00:43:24.384 --> 00:43:27.065
There's no question that when I started

00:43:27.105 --> 00:43:29.465
going to WordCamps around the world and

00:43:29.525 --> 00:43:30.065
speaking,

00:43:31.025 --> 00:43:33.266
that it had a huge impact on the

00:43:33.487 --> 00:43:34.708
future of my career.

00:43:35.108 --> 00:43:37.528
At the time, I would speak,

00:43:37.548 --> 00:43:38.469
I don't know how many people would be

00:43:38.489 --> 00:43:38.929
in the hall,

00:43:39.248 --> 00:43:40.469
and I would get zero feedback.

00:43:40.610 --> 00:43:41.630
You know, like often it's just like,

00:43:41.990 --> 00:43:42.530
thanks, bye.

00:43:42.990 --> 00:43:44.690
But then six months later,

00:43:44.911 --> 00:43:47.032
someone would get in touch for a web

00:43:47.072 --> 00:43:49.393
project or, you know,

00:43:49.833 --> 00:43:50.413
and I would always say,

00:43:51.215 --> 00:43:53.456
just took one person in the audience that

00:43:53.496 --> 00:43:54.878
that talk meant something to them,

00:43:54.998 --> 00:43:55.717
that it was worth it.

00:43:56.137 --> 00:43:57.278
But it's stuff that,

00:43:57.298 --> 00:43:58.099
that kind of activity,

00:43:58.760 --> 00:44:00.420
it's time consuming, it's expensive.

00:44:00.701 --> 00:44:02.280
It's, you know, it's very easy to say,

00:44:03.101 --> 00:44:04.702
nevermind, we live in a digital age.

00:44:04.722 --> 00:44:06.242
I'm going to sit here behind my screen

00:44:06.483 --> 00:44:07.483
and that will be enough.

00:44:08.664 --> 00:44:11.345
But you can't compare to the power of

00:44:11.365 --> 00:44:12.126
a real connection.

00:44:12.726 --> 00:44:14.447
And it's the kind of thing that builds

00:44:14.507 --> 00:44:15.208
up over time.

00:44:16.148 --> 00:44:17.807
And you don't, you can't predict how,

00:44:17.907 --> 00:44:19.429
like what is going to mean.

00:44:19.708 --> 00:44:21.329
And so you can't also be doing it

00:44:21.489 --> 00:44:23.068
because you think at some point you're

00:44:23.088 --> 00:44:24.769
going to get something out of it.

00:44:24.789 --> 00:44:26.730
I started going, um,

00:44:26.990 --> 00:44:28.929
because I wanted to connect more with the

00:44:28.949 --> 00:44:32.530
WordPress community and I could see how

00:44:33.650 --> 00:44:35.010
impactful it was for me to speak.

00:44:35.311 --> 00:44:36.570
I didn't know what it was going to

00:44:36.610 --> 00:44:38.191
do, but I knew that it was like,

00:44:38.271 --> 00:44:40.012
it mattered and it meant something for,

00:44:40.731 --> 00:44:41.351
for my work.

00:44:41.931 --> 00:44:44.572
So, but how to play out,

00:44:44.652 --> 00:44:45.313
I had no idea.

00:44:46.882 --> 00:44:49.242
but it turned out to play out like

00:44:49.322 --> 00:44:51.342
in many ways, um, very well,

00:44:51.563 --> 00:44:53.304
but I just loved meeting the people.

00:44:53.384 --> 00:44:54.503
So like, you know,

00:44:54.523 --> 00:44:56.065
you have to be in it because you

00:44:56.085 --> 00:44:58.286
love the people and if good stuff comes

00:44:58.706 --> 00:44:59.385
your way, great.

00:44:59.545 --> 00:45:00.106
And by the way,

00:45:00.206 --> 00:45:01.086
it goes the other way.

00:45:01.166 --> 00:45:01.507
Also,

00:45:02.007 --> 00:45:04.208
I've been very fortunate to help many

00:45:04.248 --> 00:45:06.568
people along the way who know me,

00:45:06.708 --> 00:45:07.708
like it goes both ways.

00:45:07.728 --> 00:45:09.588
Like I sometimes I think, wow, so good.

00:45:09.608 --> 00:45:13.030
That person knows me because I can help

00:45:13.070 --> 00:45:13.911
them out with something.

00:45:14.130 --> 00:45:14.650
And, um,

00:45:15.485 --> 00:45:16.730
Yeah, it's definitely,

00:45:17.271 --> 00:45:18.898
it's been a journey, but it's worth it.

00:45:20.860 --> 00:45:21.742
I want to talk a little bit,

00:45:22.041 --> 00:45:24.202
this will probably be the last bit,

00:45:24.322 --> 00:45:27.525
but I think that you mentioned a number,

00:45:27.985 --> 00:45:30.027
and you mentioned it too when we were

00:45:30.066 --> 00:45:34.728
doing the livestream for Angie,

00:45:34.809 --> 00:45:37.490
the number of Elementor installs is some

00:45:37.911 --> 00:45:39.871
ridiculously high number that I can't even

00:45:39.931 --> 00:45:43.134
fathom a product being used that much.

00:45:44.974 --> 00:45:45.595
Yeah.

00:45:47.465 --> 00:45:48.606
Was it always like that?

00:45:48.746 --> 00:45:50.626
Was it like that when you joined first

00:45:50.666 --> 00:45:50.987
of all,

00:45:51.487 --> 00:45:55.371
and then what do you credit Elementor's,

00:45:56.010 --> 00:45:58.733
I mean, objective success to?

00:46:00.974 --> 00:46:02.896
So Elementor has been growing at a fast

00:46:02.936 --> 00:46:04.376
pace basically since it was launched.

00:46:04.518 --> 00:46:05.697
I can't remember the exact numbers,

00:46:05.777 --> 00:46:07.579
but like within

00:46:08.365 --> 00:46:08.885
I don't know,

00:46:08.925 --> 00:46:11.389
six months or a year of them launching

00:46:11.969 --> 00:46:12.429
Elementor,

00:46:12.469 --> 00:46:13.970
they had reached like a million installs.

00:46:14.530 --> 00:46:16.072
It was like a very short amount of

00:46:16.132 --> 00:46:16.353
time.

00:46:16.492 --> 00:46:18.974
The growth hockey stick was like crazy.

00:46:19.815 --> 00:46:21.217
And then since then, it's been growing.

00:46:23.097 --> 00:46:23.938
When I joined,

00:46:24.159 --> 00:46:26.581
it wasn't yet the most popular plugin in

00:46:26.661 --> 00:46:27.161
the repo.

00:46:27.782 --> 00:46:28.963
It was like number three.

00:46:29.503 --> 00:46:31.605
And we would pay attention.

00:46:31.724 --> 00:46:32.865
And then at one point, we're like,

00:46:32.885 --> 00:46:34.907
oh my gosh, it bypassed Yoast.

00:46:34.947 --> 00:46:35.989
Yoast was like number two.

00:46:36.389 --> 00:46:37.369
And we went to number two.

00:46:37.909 --> 00:46:39.409
And then one morning we woke up and

00:46:39.429 --> 00:46:40.650
we're like, we're number one.

00:46:41.391 --> 00:46:42.210
It was crazy.

00:46:44.112 --> 00:46:46.733
So why is it growing?

00:46:48.134 --> 00:46:49.273
First of all, I think from the beginning,

00:46:49.293 --> 00:46:50.175
like in the start,

00:46:50.615 --> 00:46:52.675
it was just really the right product at

00:46:52.715 --> 00:46:53.235
the right time.

00:46:53.496 --> 00:46:54.416
It was that combination,

00:46:54.637 --> 00:46:56.376
which is like winning the lottery.

00:46:56.456 --> 00:46:57.998
And I'm not saying it was luck because

00:46:58.038 --> 00:46:59.978
they built a product that people really

00:47:00.019 --> 00:47:00.239
wanted,

00:47:00.298 --> 00:47:01.659
but like they built that product that

00:47:01.679 --> 00:47:03.780
people really wanted at the exact right

00:47:03.820 --> 00:47:04.041
time.

00:47:05.637 --> 00:47:07.278
There were some other products already out

00:47:07.318 --> 00:47:07.519
there,

00:47:07.579 --> 00:47:11.360
but the Elementor approach gave people

00:47:11.420 --> 00:47:12.822
more capabilities.

00:47:13.702 --> 00:47:15.043
And then people just loved it and they

00:47:15.063 --> 00:47:16.144
were just talking about it and then they

00:47:16.164 --> 00:47:16.644
were sharing it.

00:47:16.744 --> 00:47:18.485
And also, I think at that time,

00:47:18.605 --> 00:47:20.146
at least, I don't know how long,

00:47:20.885 --> 00:47:22.467
but it was only the free version.

00:47:23.266 --> 00:47:24.788
It took them a while until they started

00:47:24.827 --> 00:47:26.449
offering the pro version.

00:47:28.670 --> 00:47:29.769
But I think that that,

00:47:30.130 --> 00:47:32.492
like going all in on open source like

00:47:32.532 --> 00:47:32.731
that,

00:47:33.597 --> 00:47:36.438
was also a key to their success.

00:47:39.561 --> 00:47:43.043
They've been good at listening to customer

00:47:43.083 --> 00:47:43.364
feedback.

00:47:43.384 --> 00:47:45.164
There's a lot of complaints, you know,

00:47:45.465 --> 00:47:45.985
why don't you do this?

00:47:46.005 --> 00:47:46.425
Why don't you do that?

00:47:46.465 --> 00:47:48.027
But like, if you think about the scale,

00:47:48.646 --> 00:47:50.527
so the number is now like twenty one

00:47:50.568 --> 00:47:54.311
million active installs, which is crazy.

00:47:54.570 --> 00:47:55.811
So just imagine how many opinions there

00:47:55.831 --> 00:47:56.072
are there.

00:47:56.092 --> 00:48:00.195
Sure, twenty one million.

00:48:01.376 --> 00:48:02.356
So obviously Elementor can't do

00:48:02.376 --> 00:48:02.695
everything,

00:48:02.715 --> 00:48:03.396
but there's a lot of

00:48:04.190 --> 00:48:06.052
One of the things that I couldn't believe

00:48:06.092 --> 00:48:10.175
when I joined because they're so big that

00:48:10.494 --> 00:48:12.635
like how much they cared about like one

00:48:12.695 --> 00:48:14.237
person saying something negative.

00:48:14.958 --> 00:48:15.918
I'm like, you're so big,

00:48:16.179 --> 00:48:16.918
you're growing at like,

00:48:16.938 --> 00:48:18.219
I don't know how many sites a day

00:48:18.900 --> 00:48:21.782
and you care that Joe over there,

00:48:22.402 --> 00:48:23.923
but they cared and they were always

00:48:23.963 --> 00:48:24.384
listening.

00:48:26.284 --> 00:48:27.746
So I think that probably plays a role

00:48:27.786 --> 00:48:28.206
as well.

00:48:28.746 --> 00:48:29.387
And then, you know,

00:48:29.586 --> 00:48:32.208
just really talented people working

00:48:32.228 --> 00:48:32.528
together.

00:48:33.387 --> 00:48:35.929
I have also learned, so at Elementor,

00:48:37.188 --> 00:48:40.311
HR is super important in terms of hiring

00:48:40.351 --> 00:48:40.951
the right talent.

00:48:42.092 --> 00:48:43.673
They'll spend as long as it takes to

00:48:43.693 --> 00:48:46.554
fill a position until they feel like more

00:48:46.574 --> 00:48:48.115
than a hundred percent that the fit is

00:48:48.155 --> 00:48:48.396
right.

00:48:49.315 --> 00:48:50.657
And then, you know,

00:48:51.177 --> 00:48:52.518
there's a lot of appreciation for that.

00:48:52.577 --> 00:48:54.318
And the people who work at Elementor are

00:48:54.358 --> 00:48:54.639
really,

00:48:54.759 --> 00:48:57.420
really very brilliant and it's really fun

00:48:57.440 --> 00:48:57.940
working with them.

00:48:58.362 --> 00:48:59.262
Everyone, you know,

00:48:59.302 --> 00:49:00.882
has their like area of expertise and they

00:49:00.923 --> 00:49:02.563
really are an expert in that area.

00:49:03.286 --> 00:49:04.786
So whatever it is,

00:49:05.027 --> 00:49:05.887
even like what I'm doing,

00:49:06.608 --> 00:49:07.347
whenever I'm doing anything.

00:49:07.987 --> 00:49:08.507
So on the one hand,

00:49:08.527 --> 00:49:09.548
I'm kind of like a lone island.

00:49:10.329 --> 00:49:10.929
I don't have a team.

00:49:11.608 --> 00:49:12.409
I report to the CEO.

00:49:12.588 --> 00:49:13.269
He's super busy.

00:49:13.670 --> 00:49:15.269
I'm like doing my own thing.

00:49:15.630 --> 00:49:17.170
But I work horizontally.

00:49:17.230 --> 00:49:19.090
So like, you know,

00:49:19.130 --> 00:49:20.251
if we're sponsoring a WordCamp,

00:49:20.311 --> 00:49:23.371
I have to pull in finance, legal, design,

00:49:23.411 --> 00:49:25.132
if we're going to have a booth, right?

00:49:25.713 --> 00:49:27.333
And

00:49:28.947 --> 00:49:31.289
everyone's just so smart and like brings

00:49:31.389 --> 00:49:33.369
such value to the project that the output

00:49:33.429 --> 00:49:34.331
will be really good.

00:49:35.170 --> 00:49:37.231
So, so I think that as well.

00:49:37.251 --> 00:49:38.713
And of course our, the co-founders,

00:49:38.773 --> 00:49:39.494
Ariel and Yoni,

00:49:40.673 --> 00:49:43.416
their vision is very focused and strategic

00:49:43.735 --> 00:49:45.456
and they're always thinking and

00:49:45.476 --> 00:49:45.996
rethinking.

00:49:47.117 --> 00:49:52.780
And they're also, they hear this,

00:49:53.900 --> 00:49:55.802
they're like, they have humility,

00:49:55.902 --> 00:49:57.103
meaning they don't think they know

00:49:57.143 --> 00:49:57.463
everything.

00:49:57.999 --> 00:49:59.061
as all we're all like,

00:49:59.121 --> 00:50:00.481
everyone is always discussing things and

00:50:00.541 --> 00:50:01.802
yes, they'll make a decision in the end,

00:50:01.822 --> 00:50:03.144
but, um,

00:50:03.164 --> 00:50:04.105
they don't think they know everything.

00:50:04.365 --> 00:50:06.487
And, um, yeah, I don't know.

00:50:06.547 --> 00:50:06.867
It's like,

00:50:06.947 --> 00:50:08.327
I guess it's a combination of factors,

00:50:08.367 --> 00:50:10.690
but yeah, it's wild.

00:50:10.929 --> 00:50:12.271
The reach that the company has.

00:50:12.771 --> 00:50:13.271
Yeah.

00:50:13.331 --> 00:50:13.913
Yeah.

00:50:14.072 --> 00:50:14.233
Yeah.

00:50:15.470 --> 00:50:16.911
Well, thank you very much, uh,

00:50:16.931 --> 00:50:18.191
Miriam for being on the show.

00:50:18.972 --> 00:50:19.632
Uh,

00:50:19.811 --> 00:50:22.532
I'm hopefully we'll get to meet someplace,

00:50:22.813 --> 00:50:23.753
uh, in the next year.

00:50:23.914 --> 00:50:24.173
Uh,

00:50:24.193 --> 00:50:26.934
I'm sure we tend to like rotate in

00:50:27.034 --> 00:50:29.034
similar circles, uh, as it were.

00:50:29.315 --> 00:50:30.396
Um, uh,

00:50:31.255 --> 00:50:33.777
where can people find you on the internet?

00:50:34.356 --> 00:50:36.298
So actually I just built myself a website.

00:50:36.737 --> 00:50:37.117
Oh yeah.

00:50:37.557 --> 00:50:37.858
Yeah.

00:50:38.018 --> 00:50:39.117
Miriam Schwab.me.

00:50:39.418 --> 00:50:40.179
Someone took miriamschwab.com.

00:50:40.199 --> 00:50:43.159
They're not doing anything with it.

00:50:43.179 --> 00:50:43.999
So I took miriamschwab.me.

00:50:45.023 --> 00:50:45.103
Um,

00:50:45.362 --> 00:50:46.804
it's a WordPress site that I built with

00:50:46.844 --> 00:50:46.903
AI.

00:50:47.063 --> 00:50:48.284
I was super excited about it.

00:50:48.304 --> 00:50:49.065
So you can,

00:50:49.085 --> 00:50:50.324
I have a contact form there and I

00:50:50.344 --> 00:50:50.706
have links,

00:50:50.945 --> 00:50:52.585
but you can obviously find me on LinkedIn,

00:50:53.306 --> 00:50:56.427
uh, Twitter slash X, um,

00:50:56.548 --> 00:50:57.869
and all the usual places I'm there.

00:50:58.648 --> 00:50:59.849
Oh, make WordPress slack,

00:50:59.889 --> 00:51:00.889
post status slack.

00:51:02.490 --> 00:51:03.150
All the slacks.

00:51:03.351 --> 00:51:03.550
Yeah.

00:51:03.670 --> 00:51:04.190
All the slacks.

00:51:05.391 --> 00:51:05.731
Uh, well, yeah.

00:51:05.771 --> 00:51:06.291
Thanks again.

00:51:06.652 --> 00:51:08.052
Uh, thanks for, for being on the show.

00:51:08.092 --> 00:51:10.034
Thank you everyone who might be watching

00:51:10.074 --> 00:51:11.655
or listening to this in the future and

00:51:11.695 --> 00:51:12.615
we'll see you on the internet.