WEBVTT

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Hey, welcome back to Community & Code.

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My name is Chris Reynolds.

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You know that thing where you're in the

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back of an Uber,

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half checked out after a long conference,

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and a fully formed idea just smacks you

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upside the head?

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For my guest this week,

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that Uber ride out of a WordCamp US

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became a weekly podcast with over a

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hundred episodes.

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Bud Krause has been in the WordPress

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community since two thousand nine,

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teaching code in New York City classrooms

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and writing the educational stuff that a

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whole generation of us probably learned

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from.

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These days, he's hosting Seriously Bud,

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a show about everything in a WordPresser's

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life, except WordPress.

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We got into a lot how Star Trek

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is responsible for his love of technology,

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why he's convinced airports will one day

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be teleports,

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whether AI is making him dumber, smarter,

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or both simultaneously,

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and a genuinely great riff on why

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WordPress people feel like they own

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WordPress in a way that doesn't quite

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happen anywhere else.

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There's also some real talk about where he

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thinks WordPress has lost its way with the

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block editor and the fact that Elementor

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is eating a third of the web.

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Join me on this hangout with Bud.

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Let's get into it.

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Welcome to Community and Code,

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the podcast where we talk to the human

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beings behind the commits.

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And today I am here with Bud Krause,

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who has been in the WordPress community

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for, I don't know,

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a really long time as an educator,

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as a podcaster, as just, I don't know,

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everyone's grandpa, I guess, or something.

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Stop right there.

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Come on.

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Cut that out.

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Stop.

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Come on.

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Why don't you tell everyone?

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Hold on.

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Hold on.

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You know,

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every time I go to a word camp,

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you know, they say to me,

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they come up with, how old are you?

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And I go like, what,

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what is an age restriction here?

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Does an age limit there?

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It's like the height.

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It's the height.

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You need to be this tall to enter

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this.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Well, whatever.

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As I once said to Matt Mullenweg,

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I said, you know, uh,

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i think i'm the oldest person in wordpress

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and he said to me well how old

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are you and i told him and he

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said well you're not the oldest but you're

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getting there well i mean we're all

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getting there like uh that is true

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wordpress is legally able to drink at this

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point yeah and and then some and i

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mean what's there are some of us who

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have been there from from the beginning or

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very close to the beginning uh i have

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noticed i'm not the only one getting older

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in wordpress

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Yeah, for sure.

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But Bud,

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why don't you tell anybody who's listening

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who might not already know you what it

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is that you do?

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Well,

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I'd like to say that I'm a content

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creative.

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That is,

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I create WordPress content for WordPress

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businesses.

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So I get hired to

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write articles educational material of

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course that's kind of dwindling now with

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ai that is you know i don't think

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there's a big future in it unfortunately

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because i love to write uh and write

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technical stuff but like i said like i

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don't know um but i do spend more

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time these days with the podcast called

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seriously bud and uh it's where i have

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you've been on it and i've been on

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it recently and um

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It's an unexpected conversation with

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someone in the WordPress community.

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So every Friday at eight a.m.

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Eastern Daylight Time,

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I drop an episode and it's not your

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typical WordPress podcast shop talk kind

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of thing.

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In fact,

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I stay away from all that as much

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as I can and just talk about your

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life, who you are,

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who your partner might be, children,

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family, what you like to do, you know,

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everything that's not WordPress.

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Now,

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some people that's kind of hard to do

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and some people it's pretty easy to do.

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So I'm always looking for the unusual,

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interesting, super interesting stories.

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I say that because everybody does have a

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really good story.

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As I think people know,

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it's just a matter of getting people,

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giving them the opportunity to say it,

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which I think the podcast does.

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Yeah, I mean,

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as somebody who has done lots of talks

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at events and somebody who does lots of

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virtual events and things like that and

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has also talked to other people who also

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have done talks at events like

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The thing that separates somebody from

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being a speaker in whatever definition of

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the word that you want to give it

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and somebody who does not identify as that

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is just feeling like the story that you

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do have or the stories that you have

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are worth telling.

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It's just a feeling.

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That's the only difference.

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You know, that is true.

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And, you know,

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I think it's sometimes I think it's kind

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of audacious of me in some ways to

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even have a podcast like I have.

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But I do like stories.

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I like to tell stories.

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I've always been that way.

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And I'm going to give you an exclusive

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here, Chris.

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No one has ever heard this.

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Okay.

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So when I think about this a lot,

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when I was, I don't know,

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I had a guy my age come up

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to me and say, you know, Krauss,

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one day you're going to be really good

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at storytelling.

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You're going to love stories and all that

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stuff.

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And, you know,

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Barrington Weinberg was a hundred percent

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right.

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So, yeah, you know, I,

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and I remember him saying that I just

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took note of it,

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but I really didn't think much of it

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and turned out to be true.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Well, and, and like,

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don't know uh my dad once upon a

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time was uh planning on going into like

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uh broadcasting like we wanted to be a

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dj on the radio and that never actually

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panned out but he did always he was

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always sort of like a communicator and

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ultimately like got into human resources

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which is also about communication and so

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like i think that like you know for

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me i think that that definitely like

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played a role in how I view the

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world and, and,

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and maybe added to a little bit of

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comfort around talking in front of people.

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I was involved in theater and stuff like

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that.

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Like, you know, like, but like,

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none of that is a prerequisite.

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And I've talked to people on the podcast

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before that are like, you know,

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they felt like they wanted to start

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presenting things because it would benefit

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their career and whatever, you know,

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whatever context and,

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and they did it and ended up like,

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even though it was like against the,

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against type.

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They were doing it because they felt like

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they had to,

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and they were doing it because it would

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be good for them,

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but they didn't really want to do it.

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But then once they did do it a

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couple times,

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they really got hooked on it.

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And I think that it really is just

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that getting over the hump.

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Well, you know, it turns out, you know,

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when I was a little kid and still

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to this day, or no, not as much,

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I always listened to talk radio.

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And now this goes way back.

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So I was very interested in human

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conversation from the beginning of time.

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And in fact,

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I sort of fall asleep to people every

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night listening to the radio of just

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people talking.

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um but you know i i and then

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as i got older i sort of wished

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i had um the opportunity to be a

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host on a talk show i think i

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would have been good uh and it well

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the podcast sort of serves that

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That need, you know,

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I was just going to say, like, talk.

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I was I was about to say talk

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radio doesn't exist anymore.

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Right.

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But like it does.

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That's what podcasts are like.

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It's literally it's literally what

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podcasts are.

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And and I, you know, I don't know,

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maybe five years ago, like.

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me i don't know that we were talking

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about podcasts as much they sort of kind

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of like had a wave and the wave

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was kind of declining but then like now

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it's like a huge deal again and there's

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it's like i think there is this need

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to like feel connection to other humans

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and having voices in your ears is a

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really intimate way of of having that sort

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of connection oh absolutely uh

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As for podcasts,

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they've been around for a long time,

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but it's only in the last,

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like you say, five, six,

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seven years that everybody and their

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mother now has a podcast because they

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realized there's a very low barrier to

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entry.

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It doesn't cost anything,

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and everybody can do it.

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Not necessarily well, but they can do it.

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I mean the technology is getting easier.

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The technology that you can use to make

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a podcast is getting so much easier and

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more prevalent to use and cheaper.

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Yeah, for sure.

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When are you going to ask me this

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question about when I got into tech?

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Well, I was getting to that,

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but I'm actually like – I'm sorry.

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I like this path, Ron,

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because I'm actually interested in when

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you decided to get into podcasting.

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So it was not what I was expecting

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to do by far because go ask Bob

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Dunn.

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I used to ask,

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tell him a thousand times, Bob,

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why would anybody do a podcast?

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This is the most ridiculous thing that

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you're doing.

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I mean, you know, this was,

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I don't know, eight, nine years ago,

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you know,

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I was kidding him all the time.

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What are you doing this for?

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And then, uh, WordCamp US, Washington, DC,

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I was leaving and I was in an

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Uber.

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And then all of a sudden,

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like a bolt of lightning,

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I swear to God,

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I got hit by this thing.

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And I'll never forget it, obviously.

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And I said, you know,

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I wish I could just spend more time

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with Chris Reynolds, okay, or anybody.

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You name it.

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Marcus Burnett, whatever.

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The name.

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I said,

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just because I love talking to the people

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and I don't really spend enough time with

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them because it's just rush, rush.

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And at that moment, I said, hey,

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I could do a podcast where I have

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a conversation with people like that.

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And so everything, even the music,

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my daughter introducing me,

00:10:20.032 --> 00:10:22.592
the whole thing was born in one second.

00:10:23.172 --> 00:10:25.033
The only thing that wasn't born was the

00:10:25.073 --> 00:10:25.413
name.

00:10:26.313 --> 00:10:27.815
And that came from my designer.

00:10:27.874 --> 00:10:29.755
She came up, Jackie Goldstein.

00:10:29.775 --> 00:10:30.655
I'll give her a shout out.

00:10:30.735 --> 00:10:31.556
She's my designer.

00:10:31.576 --> 00:10:32.177
And she came up.

00:10:33.037 --> 00:10:35.740
with the idea of seriously but it was

00:10:35.779 --> 00:10:37.561
just whether it was gonna be serious how

00:10:37.600 --> 00:10:39.722
you're gonna say it you know and we

00:10:39.763 --> 00:10:42.686
said as a question and that and then

00:10:42.985 --> 00:10:44.347
I think you know we decided right away

00:10:44.368 --> 00:10:46.308
everybody would say it during the show and

00:10:46.749 --> 00:10:48.971
the whole thing was just very easy to

00:10:50.153 --> 00:10:53.416
I never struggled with an idea of what

00:10:53.456 --> 00:10:56.177
the show anything it just came you know

00:10:56.298 --> 00:10:56.578
and then

00:10:57.990 --> 00:10:59.472
you know, uh,

00:10:59.572 --> 00:11:00.413
one thing led to the next.

00:11:00.453 --> 00:11:02.096
Now, initially I thought like, well,

00:11:02.135 --> 00:11:03.758
I would just interview my friends.

00:11:04.197 --> 00:11:04.538
Okay.

00:11:04.639 --> 00:11:06.701
Then I would interview people that I sort

00:11:06.740 --> 00:11:07.262
of know.

00:11:07.442 --> 00:11:08.222
Okay.

00:11:08.302 --> 00:11:09.865
And then eventually I'd interview people

00:11:09.904 --> 00:11:11.547
that I didn't know at all.

00:11:12.087 --> 00:11:13.850
And I've done all of that, you know,

00:11:14.029 --> 00:11:14.210
and, uh,

00:11:14.890 --> 00:11:16.351
people from around the world.

00:11:16.512 --> 00:11:17.412
It's really been,

00:11:19.393 --> 00:11:21.354
it's an honor really to do this.

00:11:22.014 --> 00:11:24.715
And I will say, looking back now,

00:11:24.774 --> 00:11:27.756
I think another thing that kind of was

00:11:27.797 --> 00:11:32.459
the impetus was in twenty seven, eighteen,

00:11:33.158 --> 00:11:35.360
I took a trip around the United States

00:11:35.480 --> 00:11:37.201
on Amtrak and I went all the way

00:11:37.221 --> 00:11:39.344
around, took me nineteen days.

00:11:39.945 --> 00:11:40.745
I did stop.

00:11:40.845 --> 00:11:41.085
I mean,

00:11:41.105 --> 00:11:43.147
I didn't can't be on a train for

00:11:43.206 --> 00:11:44.288
nineteen days.

00:11:44.347 --> 00:11:46.148
You know, you have to take a shower,

00:11:46.209 --> 00:11:46.490
you know.

00:11:47.370 --> 00:11:49.111
So I would stop along the way,

00:11:49.152 --> 00:11:51.033
Chicago and Austin and whatever.

00:11:51.313 --> 00:11:52.634
But I did make a circle all the

00:11:52.654 --> 00:11:53.034
way around.

00:11:53.735 --> 00:11:56.857
And in that experience,

00:11:57.097 --> 00:11:59.700
I had time to talk to people on

00:11:59.720 --> 00:12:00.161
the train.

00:12:01.255 --> 00:12:03.297
And I found myself asking like a million

00:12:03.337 --> 00:12:03.738
questions.

00:12:03.758 --> 00:12:05.980
Well, what was your mother like, you know,

00:12:06.019 --> 00:12:08.221
or do you like fried chicken or what?

00:12:08.341 --> 00:12:10.484
And so without knowing at the time that

00:12:11.365 --> 00:12:12.806
I was starting to develop the skills,

00:12:12.846 --> 00:12:16.009
that would be the show, you know, uh,

00:12:16.028 --> 00:12:17.389
I sort of was without knowing it.

00:12:17.509 --> 00:12:19.051
So it's kind of interesting.

00:12:19.552 --> 00:12:19.751
Yeah.

00:12:19.932 --> 00:12:20.552
Well, and you've been,

00:12:20.852 --> 00:12:21.834
you've been running seriously,

00:12:21.894 --> 00:12:22.514
but for quite a while,

00:12:22.533 --> 00:12:23.936
you've got over a hundred episodes now.

00:12:23.956 --> 00:12:24.596
What are you at?

00:12:24.655 --> 00:12:25.036
No,

00:12:25.437 --> 00:12:27.658
a hundred and ten is going to be.

00:12:27.719 --> 00:12:27.938
Yeah.

00:12:28.749 --> 00:12:29.310
This Friday.

00:12:29.370 --> 00:12:30.730
So, you know, yeah.

00:12:31.951 --> 00:12:35.193
And there is no shortage of amazing people

00:12:35.313 --> 00:12:35.913
to interview.

00:12:36.193 --> 00:12:38.495
That's the one thing you can count on.

00:12:39.056 --> 00:12:40.356
The supply is there.

00:12:40.397 --> 00:12:42.639
The inventory, my friend, is there.

00:12:43.178 --> 00:12:44.899
We have lots and lots of people.

00:12:46.061 --> 00:12:46.260
Yeah.

00:12:46.341 --> 00:12:47.942
Well, I mean, I always say that, like,

00:12:48.001 --> 00:12:49.003
you know,

00:12:49.123 --> 00:12:51.004
having this podcast is just an excuse to

00:12:51.043 --> 00:12:52.085
talk to people that are cool.

00:12:55.292 --> 00:12:56.394
That's pretty much the barrier.

00:12:56.413 --> 00:12:57.235
What am I doing?

00:12:57.255 --> 00:12:58.158
What am I doing here?

00:12:58.177 --> 00:13:02.467
But, you know, the, uh, uh, yeah.

00:13:02.629 --> 00:13:02.970
And, um,

00:13:05.246 --> 00:13:09.871
it's uh whatever the next question well

00:13:09.892 --> 00:13:12.855
okay so we'll go back uh where what

00:13:12.955 --> 00:13:16.357
did lead to your interest in tech in

00:13:16.479 --> 00:13:18.399
general like where did that come from yeah

00:13:18.419 --> 00:13:20.442
it's easy star trek and i'm talking the

00:13:20.481 --> 00:13:24.245
original i so i'm taking the original oh

00:13:24.306 --> 00:13:26.948
yeah the classic yeah yes you know

00:13:27.508 --> 00:13:30.051
and uh you know with bones and doctor

00:13:30.110 --> 00:13:33.073
and spock and james t kirk and yep

00:13:33.134 --> 00:13:35.917
that is when i started to realize you

00:13:35.937 --> 00:13:39.320
know i like the science fiction stuff and

00:13:39.340 --> 00:13:41.982
uh yeah and i never stopped liking it

00:13:42.043 --> 00:13:46.126
you know um so that's when i started

00:13:46.147 --> 00:13:47.168
to realize it but

00:13:48.374 --> 00:13:49.475
I, you know,

00:13:50.677 --> 00:13:52.440
I don't look at myself really as a

00:13:53.301 --> 00:13:55.123
techie person per se, but, you know,

00:13:55.143 --> 00:13:56.445
my friends and a lot of people say,

00:13:56.485 --> 00:13:57.966
what are you talking about, you know,

00:13:59.248 --> 00:13:59.989
and compared to them.

00:14:00.488 --> 00:14:02.548
I am.

00:14:02.568 --> 00:14:04.970
But I just think that I just,

00:14:05.549 --> 00:14:06.070
I'm not really,

00:14:07.110 --> 00:14:08.630
I like to use technology and I like

00:14:08.650 --> 00:14:09.331
to see it work.

00:14:09.770 --> 00:14:12.012
Too often it doesn't, but that's it.

00:14:12.111 --> 00:14:15.332
I don't really have, you know, it's like,

00:14:15.852 --> 00:14:19.615
I like to use the air dryer or

00:14:19.634 --> 00:14:20.894
the air, what is that air dryer?

00:14:20.914 --> 00:14:21.495
What do they call it?

00:14:23.796 --> 00:14:25.336
It's, let's say a microwave.

00:14:25.417 --> 00:14:25.736
Okay.

00:14:25.777 --> 00:14:27.096
But I don't need to know how the

00:14:27.137 --> 00:14:28.077
microwave works.

00:14:28.217 --> 00:14:28.837
I don't really care.

00:14:30.625 --> 00:14:31.245
Does that make any sense?

00:14:32.086 --> 00:14:32.647
Yeah, for sure.

00:14:33.027 --> 00:14:33.187
Yeah.

00:14:33.226 --> 00:14:34.408
I mean,

00:14:34.427 --> 00:14:35.928
that's not to say I'm never interested in

00:14:35.990 --> 00:14:36.310
code,

00:14:36.330 --> 00:14:38.411
but I'm just not interested as much

00:14:38.451 --> 00:14:38.851
anymore.

00:14:40.012 --> 00:14:40.793
We have AI,

00:14:40.832 --> 00:14:45.296
we have all these things now, you know,

00:14:45.316 --> 00:14:46.437
you don't need to see how the sausage

00:14:46.456 --> 00:14:46.758
is made.

00:14:47.857 --> 00:14:49.639
I do sometimes take a look and I

00:14:49.659 --> 00:14:50.240
have to see,

00:14:50.299 --> 00:14:52.341
but I'm not one of these guys that

00:14:52.381 --> 00:14:54.123
just, that doesn't really,

00:14:54.803 --> 00:14:55.984
that never really turned me on.

00:14:56.043 --> 00:14:56.585
However,

00:14:58.038 --> 00:15:01.162
I taught code forever in New York City,

00:15:01.481 --> 00:15:02.283
and I did like it.

00:15:04.085 --> 00:15:06.746
And it was also my first experience on

00:15:06.807 --> 00:15:10.311
a continual basis to get up in front

00:15:10.350 --> 00:15:11.251
of people and talk.

00:15:12.013 --> 00:15:14.115
And what I learned, excuse me,

00:15:14.174 --> 00:15:14.755
cut that out.

00:15:14.916 --> 00:15:18.278
So what I learned is that

00:15:19.361 --> 00:15:21.123
if you did it the right way,

00:15:21.243 --> 00:15:23.104
sort of like a mixture of entertainment

00:15:23.144 --> 00:15:23.945
and education,

00:15:24.504 --> 00:15:26.326
they will listen to you and you can

00:15:26.366 --> 00:15:28.087
talk about anything.

00:15:28.587 --> 00:15:29.207
It doesn't matter.

00:15:29.408 --> 00:15:30.389
You have their attention.

00:15:31.549 --> 00:15:32.890
And my wife used to say, well,

00:15:32.911 --> 00:15:33.890
how was class today?

00:15:33.911 --> 00:15:36.613
And I'd say, well, it was really good.

00:15:36.873 --> 00:15:38.234
And she knew when I said that it

00:15:38.273 --> 00:15:41.155
meant that they laughed at all the jokes

00:15:41.897 --> 00:15:43.457
because I didn't go by like whether they

00:15:43.577 --> 00:15:44.418
learned anything.

00:15:45.078 --> 00:15:45.379
Okay.

00:15:45.918 --> 00:15:46.499
I just was like,

00:15:46.538 --> 00:15:48.140
wanted to entertain them and just have

00:15:48.201 --> 00:15:48.421
fun.

00:15:49.307 --> 00:15:51.328
So, but I did, I didn't want to,

00:15:51.509 --> 00:15:52.849
you know, obviously they had to learn.

00:15:53.328 --> 00:15:55.450
So I was teaching them HTML and CSS

00:15:55.490 --> 00:15:57.070
and Dreamweaver and WordPress,

00:15:57.690 --> 00:16:00.770
little JavaScript in there, but, you know,

00:16:00.831 --> 00:16:01.431
and it was fun.

00:16:02.051 --> 00:16:04.032
And then I created online courses and all

00:16:04.052 --> 00:16:04.211
that.

00:16:04.231 --> 00:16:06.451
So back in the day when you had

00:16:06.491 --> 00:16:09.393
to know code, it was fun.

00:16:09.432 --> 00:16:09.653
And then

00:16:10.260 --> 00:16:12.543
WordPress came along and destroyed all of

00:16:12.562 --> 00:16:12.842
that.

00:16:13.344 --> 00:16:14.563
That's not true, obviously.

00:16:14.585 --> 00:16:16.245
Yeah, go ahead.

00:16:16.765 --> 00:16:18.027
I know what you're asking.

00:16:18.086 --> 00:16:19.107
How did I get to WordPress?

00:16:19.148 --> 00:16:19.347
Yeah,

00:16:19.368 --> 00:16:21.470
what is the thing that steered you towards

00:16:21.490 --> 00:16:22.331
WordPress in the beginning?

00:16:22.911 --> 00:16:25.874
Another memorable moment in my life,

00:16:25.953 --> 00:16:30.817
I was having lunch at the Oyster Bar

00:16:30.836 --> 00:16:32.119
at Grand Central in New York City.

00:16:32.158 --> 00:16:33.980
Very nice, fancy kind of place.

00:16:34.139 --> 00:16:35.841
Business people go and stuff.

00:16:35.860 --> 00:16:37.503
So I was there with a client friend

00:16:38.392 --> 00:16:39.793
Uh, and he said,

00:16:40.173 --> 00:16:41.534
and he was always like six months to

00:16:41.554 --> 00:16:42.995
a year ahead of me, you know,

00:16:43.057 --> 00:16:44.158
in thinking about what's,

00:16:44.518 --> 00:16:46.320
what's out there and a little older than

00:16:46.340 --> 00:16:46.499
me.

00:16:47.039 --> 00:16:48.762
And he would say it was very successful

00:16:48.821 --> 00:16:51.023
financier and, uh,

00:16:51.725 --> 00:16:53.567
store owner and all that and great guy.

00:16:53.667 --> 00:16:54.547
And he said to me, you know,

00:16:55.908 --> 00:16:57.089
you want to learn WordPress?

00:16:57.129 --> 00:16:58.570
And I said, oh, come on.

00:16:59.649 --> 00:17:00.490
I said,

00:17:00.551 --> 00:17:02.350
I'm a rage against the machine kind of

00:17:02.390 --> 00:17:02.571
guy.

00:17:02.630 --> 00:17:05.711
I don't want to learn that WordPress junk.

00:17:06.592 --> 00:17:09.234
And he said, no, pay attention, bud.

00:17:09.533 --> 00:17:11.214
You really want to learn this.

00:17:11.293 --> 00:17:11.553
Here,

00:17:11.854 --> 00:17:13.615
I'll give you my username and password.

00:17:14.215 --> 00:17:16.816
Log into my site and take a look.

00:17:16.895 --> 00:17:17.355
And I did.

00:17:17.696 --> 00:17:19.157
And I saw this

00:17:19.756 --> 00:17:23.039
thing called the Ozzy like drop down menu

00:17:23.080 --> 00:17:23.841
or something at the,

00:17:23.880 --> 00:17:24.762
I forget what it was called.

00:17:25.302 --> 00:17:27.344
They had all kinds of like very primitive

00:17:27.423 --> 00:17:28.585
stuff compared to today.

00:17:28.664 --> 00:17:28.926
Right.

00:17:29.125 --> 00:17:33.009
Uh, subscribe to for email.

00:17:33.070 --> 00:17:35.351
And I mean, it was just really primitive,

00:17:36.052 --> 00:17:37.254
but I didn't know at the time it

00:17:37.293 --> 00:17:38.014
wasn't primitive.

00:17:38.053 --> 00:17:39.215
And I started to figure out what are

00:17:39.254 --> 00:17:40.437
plugins, what are themes.

00:17:40.956 --> 00:17:42.798
And then a certain period of time passed

00:17:43.479 --> 00:17:45.020
and I saw there was this,

00:17:46.039 --> 00:17:47.480
theme called thesis.

00:17:47.701 --> 00:17:48.801
I think it was called thesis.

00:17:48.860 --> 00:17:50.081
Maybe it was called thematic.

00:17:50.201 --> 00:17:51.182
No, there was thesis,

00:17:51.741 --> 00:17:53.182
but there was a theme called thematic,

00:17:53.802 --> 00:17:56.644
which taught you how to create a child

00:17:56.683 --> 00:17:57.024
theme.

00:17:57.685 --> 00:18:00.265
And once I put that together and figured

00:18:00.326 --> 00:18:02.486
out how that works and saw like, oh,

00:18:02.866 --> 00:18:04.268
wow, you can make a template.

00:18:04.467 --> 00:18:05.047
You could do this.

00:18:06.347 --> 00:18:07.769
I said, oh, this is mine.

00:18:08.068 --> 00:18:10.389
Because there comes a point for people

00:18:10.549 --> 00:18:13.250
that get hooked on this thing that

00:18:13.350 --> 00:18:14.711
WordPress is theirs.

00:18:15.942 --> 00:18:17.342
in the sense that you could do whatever

00:18:17.363 --> 00:18:18.264
you want to do with this.

00:18:18.523 --> 00:18:20.423
And that's really cool, you know,

00:18:20.484 --> 00:18:22.424
and that's, and then once I learned that,

00:18:22.485 --> 00:18:23.565
the first thing I thought like, oh,

00:18:23.644 --> 00:18:24.465
I could teach this.

00:18:25.265 --> 00:18:25.666
And I did.

00:18:26.306 --> 00:18:29.126
And at that time, you know, in,

00:18:30.226 --> 00:18:31.626
there were so many people that were,

00:18:31.807 --> 00:18:33.927
they were lining up outside the door to

00:18:33.988 --> 00:18:34.788
learn WordPress.

00:18:35.028 --> 00:18:36.848
I mean, you know,

00:18:36.888 --> 00:18:39.869
the market was ripe and people were from

00:18:40.029 --> 00:18:40.769
all over New York.

00:18:40.809 --> 00:18:41.249
They wanted to,

00:18:42.035 --> 00:18:43.375
come and take the class and learn

00:18:43.395 --> 00:18:43.855
WordPress.

00:18:43.875 --> 00:18:45.156
So that was a lot of fun.

00:18:45.537 --> 00:18:48.637
Now, you know, good luck.

00:18:48.719 --> 00:18:50.419
I mean, you know, it's funny.

00:18:50.479 --> 00:18:51.380
I just want to say real quick,

00:18:52.099 --> 00:18:53.881
I am now involved in the WP credits

00:18:53.921 --> 00:18:55.942
program where, you know,

00:18:56.001 --> 00:18:59.024
people from all over the world, you know,

00:18:59.524 --> 00:18:59.743
they,

00:18:59.784 --> 00:19:01.224
they sign up to learn WordPress through

00:19:01.244 --> 00:19:02.605
their academic institution.

00:19:03.205 --> 00:19:05.007
And then they get assigned a monitor,

00:19:05.346 --> 00:19:07.528
a mentor like me to help them learn

00:19:07.547 --> 00:19:07.929
WordPress.

00:19:07.949 --> 00:19:08.949
So I'm still doing it,

00:19:08.969 --> 00:19:10.170
but in a different way.

00:19:10.490 --> 00:19:10.589
Yeah.

00:19:11.195 --> 00:19:12.557
Yeah, that's a really cool thing.

00:19:15.399 --> 00:19:19.082
Your comment about the discovery that

00:19:19.461 --> 00:19:21.823
WordPress is theirs...

00:19:23.136 --> 00:19:25.239
struck me because i was thinking about the

00:19:25.419 --> 00:19:29.060
the difference between um wordpress and

00:19:29.101 --> 00:19:30.882
drupal because obviously i'm kind of in

00:19:31.122 --> 00:19:33.703
both worlds because my employer pantheon

00:19:33.723 --> 00:19:35.846
does both things and i've been like trying

00:19:35.865 --> 00:19:37.467
to like you know i've been i've i've

00:19:37.906 --> 00:19:40.229
put my foot in into the drupal world

00:19:40.249 --> 00:19:41.930
a little bit a couple times gone to

00:19:42.009 --> 00:19:43.730
like a drupal con and drupal camp and

00:19:43.851 --> 00:19:47.933
things like that um and and i i

00:19:48.074 --> 00:19:51.756
feel like i feel like the that

00:19:53.076 --> 00:19:56.881
That sense of ownership is maybe not as

00:19:57.181 --> 00:20:00.963
present for people who work with Drupal

00:20:02.746 --> 00:20:06.068
because there's so much more configuration

00:20:06.128 --> 00:20:06.670
necessary.

00:20:07.310 --> 00:20:09.093
So like in Drupal,

00:20:09.473 --> 00:20:11.656
there is this concept of,

00:20:12.897 --> 00:20:13.999
and I've said this a bunch of times,

00:20:14.279 --> 00:20:16.782
but there's a whole class of professionals

00:20:16.883 --> 00:20:19.447
in the Drupal ecosystem who are doing

00:20:20.508 --> 00:20:24.492
essentially like they're maintainers of

00:20:24.633 --> 00:20:25.274
the site.

00:20:25.954 --> 00:20:28.415
So that just from a configuration level,

00:20:28.496 --> 00:20:30.576
like they're the ones that like click the

00:20:30.616 --> 00:20:32.377
buttons and do the config and like go

00:20:32.397 --> 00:20:33.759
to all the admin screens and get

00:20:33.778 --> 00:20:34.459
everything set up.

00:20:34.778 --> 00:20:37.201
So the people who use the site can

00:20:37.461 --> 00:20:39.382
just use the site, do the stuff,

00:20:39.602 --> 00:20:40.822
edit the content, whatever.

00:20:41.182 --> 00:20:42.163
They don't need to worry about like

00:20:42.182 --> 00:20:43.683
creating the content types or anything

00:20:43.703 --> 00:20:44.024
like that.

00:20:44.064 --> 00:20:44.243
Right.

00:20:44.604 --> 00:20:46.144
And in WordPress, we don't really like,

00:20:46.204 --> 00:20:47.566
there are people that kind of sort of

00:20:47.625 --> 00:20:48.006
do that,

00:20:48.046 --> 00:20:49.507
that are just like the web admin.

00:20:50.207 --> 00:20:51.167
But for the most part,

00:20:51.208 --> 00:20:52.568
that doesn't really exist,

00:20:52.649 --> 00:20:53.710
not at the same scale.

00:20:53.849 --> 00:20:56.672
And the reason why is because the admin

00:20:56.732 --> 00:20:58.755
is not that difficult like anybody.

00:20:58.775 --> 00:20:59.095
I mean,

00:20:59.174 --> 00:21:00.655
it's only difficult when you add more

00:21:00.695 --> 00:21:02.198
stuff and you make it complicated.

00:21:02.258 --> 00:21:02.397
Right.

00:21:02.458 --> 00:21:03.558
Right.

00:21:03.578 --> 00:21:04.700
But like at its base,

00:21:04.859 --> 00:21:06.761
it's it's pretty easy to understand.

00:21:06.882 --> 00:21:08.103
And I think that like.

00:21:08.542 --> 00:21:11.104
Yeah, that thing there of ownership.

00:21:11.163 --> 00:21:13.663
I think that you wouldn't feel that level

00:21:13.703 --> 00:21:16.684
of ownership if you weren't the ones that

00:21:16.704 --> 00:21:18.164
are clicking all the buttons and ticking

00:21:18.204 --> 00:21:19.085
all the boxes, right?

00:21:19.105 --> 00:21:20.726
I agree.

00:21:20.826 --> 00:21:21.086
Yeah,

00:21:21.105 --> 00:21:22.605
that's just a really interesting thing.

00:21:22.665 --> 00:21:25.866
I hadn't articulated that that is the

00:21:25.906 --> 00:21:27.626
distinction or a distinction between

00:21:27.666 --> 00:21:28.386
WordPress and Drupal,

00:21:28.406 --> 00:21:30.528
but I do think that maybe that is

00:21:31.188 --> 00:21:32.028
a factor.

00:21:33.363 --> 00:21:34.723
Maybe it's one of the reasons why it

00:21:34.763 --> 00:21:37.746
has been so successful is that people feel

00:21:37.865 --> 00:21:38.606
an ownership,

00:21:39.086 --> 00:21:41.209
a very visceral connection to it.

00:21:42.149 --> 00:21:43.970
And, you know, because as you say,

00:21:44.131 --> 00:21:44.770
it's simplest,

00:21:44.830 --> 00:21:47.633
it's pages and posts and media and a

00:21:47.653 --> 00:21:49.274
bunch of links and navigation.

00:21:50.755 --> 00:21:53.017
And then you get this feeling of like

00:21:53.096 --> 00:21:53.757
mastery.

00:21:54.258 --> 00:21:54.917
You know,

00:21:55.238 --> 00:21:56.999
when I created that child theme and it

00:21:57.059 --> 00:21:59.340
worked, it was like, oh my Lord,

00:21:59.862 --> 00:22:02.202
my head exploded because I just said, oh,

00:22:02.282 --> 00:22:03.024
I can just do this.

00:22:04.288 --> 00:22:04.688
Everything.

00:22:04.748 --> 00:22:06.969
And then three years later,

00:22:07.028 --> 00:22:08.409
I figured out what a functions file was

00:22:08.469 --> 00:22:09.869
for.

00:22:10.130 --> 00:22:11.269
But that's another story.

00:22:12.090 --> 00:22:14.330
But, you know, yeah.

00:22:14.411 --> 00:22:14.631
Boy,

00:22:14.751 --> 00:22:17.653
remember back in the old days when we

00:22:17.692 --> 00:22:19.292
used to bring in style sheets with the

00:22:19.432 --> 00:22:21.074
add import statement and all that?

00:22:21.173 --> 00:22:21.814
Oh, my goodness.

00:22:21.834 --> 00:22:21.913
Yeah.

00:22:21.933 --> 00:22:23.453
All right.

00:22:23.473 --> 00:22:25.214
Well, that's another story.

00:22:25.255 --> 00:22:25.914
Wait a minute.

00:22:25.974 --> 00:22:27.375
This is a coding show, right?

00:22:27.395 --> 00:22:28.796
We can talk about code.

00:22:29.355 --> 00:22:29.596
Yeah.

00:22:29.997 --> 00:22:31.017
All right.

00:22:32.207 --> 00:22:35.430
um we talked about uh you mentioned that

00:22:35.630 --> 00:22:38.592
um you you your interest in technology

00:22:39.211 --> 00:22:41.774
came from star trek yeah i feel like

00:22:41.794 --> 00:22:43.535
i and i i mean i was raised

00:22:43.575 --> 00:22:45.457
on the original star trek so like that

00:22:45.537 --> 00:22:48.358
that no you were yes i was i

00:22:48.618 --> 00:22:51.381
mean reruns i'm not from like yeah yeah

00:22:51.401 --> 00:22:53.501
yeah okay um okay

00:22:55.884 --> 00:22:59.146
and uh and so like i there's just

00:22:59.326 --> 00:23:02.769
there's so much from that era of science

00:23:02.809 --> 00:23:06.011
fiction that is kind of no longer fiction

00:23:06.353 --> 00:23:09.115
right like well well said and i'll tell

00:23:09.134 --> 00:23:11.336
you here's a case in point go watch

00:23:11.416 --> 00:23:13.999
one of those next gen episodes when it's

00:23:14.019 --> 00:23:16.299
a little closer to home and they've got

00:23:16.580 --> 00:23:18.582
ipads they've got you know this they've

00:23:18.622 --> 00:23:20.703
got that you know and it's like

00:23:21.261 --> 00:23:22.142
Oh, my Lord.

00:23:22.241 --> 00:23:22.402
Now,

00:23:22.582 --> 00:23:25.542
I think Steve Jobs noted that he was

00:23:25.623 --> 00:23:28.304
so influenced by those shows that he said,

00:23:28.403 --> 00:23:30.744
I want one of those.

00:23:30.785 --> 00:23:32.124
So I don't think that's... Now,

00:23:32.305 --> 00:23:33.506
here's my thing, okay?

00:23:33.766 --> 00:23:35.026
Talking about technology.

00:23:35.486 --> 00:23:37.707
And here's my big thing is...

00:23:39.580 --> 00:23:40.540
I won't live long enough,

00:23:40.602 --> 00:23:43.461
but those teletransporters, oh my Lord,

00:23:43.642 --> 00:23:45.442
I want one of those so bad.

00:23:45.962 --> 00:23:47.063
So here's my future.

00:23:47.083 --> 00:23:48.024
I'll give you a little glimpse.

00:23:48.503 --> 00:23:49.503
I'm like Jules Verne.

00:23:49.584 --> 00:23:50.824
Come back in a hundred years and see

00:23:50.844 --> 00:23:51.444
if I was right.

00:23:52.045 --> 00:23:53.285
There won't be any more airplanes,

00:23:53.345 --> 00:23:55.826
but there will be airports or teleports

00:23:56.306 --> 00:23:57.806
that you go to where it used to

00:23:57.826 --> 00:23:58.507
be airports.

00:23:59.067 --> 00:24:00.186
And you put yourself in one of those

00:24:00.267 --> 00:24:02.907
pods at what was once an airport and

00:24:02.928 --> 00:24:04.468
you press in a bunch of buttons and

00:24:04.488 --> 00:24:06.189
you end up in like a minute later

00:24:06.229 --> 00:24:06.709
in Paris.

00:24:09.236 --> 00:24:10.916
And you'll end up in the DeGaulle airport

00:24:11.096 --> 00:24:13.038
teleport in Paris.

00:24:13.097 --> 00:24:13.258
Now,

00:24:13.557 --> 00:24:15.979
I know everybody says it's impossible and

00:24:16.538 --> 00:24:17.759
you can't do it.

00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:20.019
I've heard all the...

00:24:20.759 --> 00:24:22.621
I've asked AI how to build it.

00:24:23.961 --> 00:24:25.541
AI says it can't be done.

00:24:25.761 --> 00:24:26.301
Not yet,

00:24:26.342 --> 00:24:28.182
but there's a path to doing this.

00:24:30.644 --> 00:24:32.044
But I mean, I won't see it,

00:24:32.064 --> 00:24:32.384
but boy,

00:24:32.404 --> 00:24:33.785
do I wish I could see something like

00:24:33.805 --> 00:24:35.865
that because I think that just...

00:24:36.974 --> 00:24:38.375
Beyond amazing to me.

00:24:38.616 --> 00:24:39.076
Magic.

00:24:40.438 --> 00:24:41.178
I think it'll happen.

00:24:42.199 --> 00:24:44.340
I mean, what is it?

00:24:45.340 --> 00:24:48.143
Any sufficiently advanced technology is

00:24:48.182 --> 00:24:49.044
equivalent to magic?

00:24:49.124 --> 00:24:50.045
I mean, that is...

00:24:51.232 --> 00:24:52.554
Well, the only thing is, now,

00:24:52.614 --> 00:24:53.874
you'll have to make sure that there aren't

00:24:53.934 --> 00:24:56.396
any flies that get into the teleport.

00:24:56.417 --> 00:24:57.458
Yes, right, yes.

00:24:57.638 --> 00:24:59.339
Keep out a fly.

00:24:59.460 --> 00:25:02.041
We've seen what happens when a fly gets...

00:25:03.723 --> 00:25:05.684
Don't try this with a cat because that's,

00:25:05.846 --> 00:25:06.086
you know,

00:25:06.625 --> 00:25:09.909
the first version of the fly was with

00:25:09.929 --> 00:25:11.150
Dandolo, the cat,

00:25:11.210 --> 00:25:13.011
and the cat just disappeared.

00:25:13.031 --> 00:25:13.251
Yeah.

00:25:14.452 --> 00:25:17.214
so but uh yeah so they'll try it

00:25:17.255 --> 00:25:20.037
with some but i could see can you

00:25:20.076 --> 00:25:22.679
imagine i mean shipping stuff with the

00:25:22.719 --> 00:25:26.540
teleporter right yeah i mean so maybe

00:25:26.801 --> 00:25:28.262
maybe we don't do people maybe we just

00:25:28.282 --> 00:25:30.483
do objects you know but i mean like

00:25:30.663 --> 00:25:33.987
and in so many ways technology is

00:25:34.086 --> 00:25:36.949
influenced by commerce and capitalism and

00:25:36.989 --> 00:25:39.329
whatever there's no if there's no other

00:25:39.410 --> 00:25:41.751
reason to invest in a technology that

00:25:41.791 --> 00:25:41.932
could

00:25:42.692 --> 00:25:45.393
transport people or objects across vast

00:25:45.432 --> 00:25:47.834
differences for like distances for less

00:25:47.894 --> 00:25:52.036
money or less time uh then yes commerce

00:25:52.076 --> 00:25:54.817
and shipping containers and things uh is

00:25:55.136 --> 00:25:57.458
is would would be a huge uh market

00:25:57.498 --> 00:25:59.199
when i when i hear all those people

00:25:59.259 --> 00:26:00.838
tell me that it's impossible to go yeah

00:26:00.878 --> 00:26:02.920
it's impossible to fly over the ocean too

00:26:03.740 --> 00:26:06.261
i mean it was impossible until it was

00:26:06.301 --> 00:26:07.162
done right

00:26:07.670 --> 00:26:09.211
So don't tell me it's impossible.

00:26:09.551 --> 00:26:11.292
If the human brain can think of it,

00:26:11.634 --> 00:26:13.394
there's a, there's possible,

00:26:13.875 --> 00:26:15.076
we're probably going to get there.

00:26:15.376 --> 00:26:17.799
And obviously, you know,

00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:20.481
now I would recommend though that we

00:26:20.541 --> 00:26:20.801
don't,

00:26:24.163 --> 00:26:25.884
it's like codecs, right?

00:26:26.644 --> 00:26:27.865
Compression, decompression,

00:26:27.945 --> 00:26:28.606
that kind of thing.

00:26:29.047 --> 00:26:31.249
So we don't decompress somebody.

00:26:31.269 --> 00:26:33.329
I was going to say,

00:26:33.550 --> 00:26:36.653
you can't do this and then send their

00:26:36.672 --> 00:26:38.594
little digital bits over the internet.

00:26:38.614 --> 00:26:41.416
That's not a good idea.

00:26:41.457 --> 00:26:42.817
Yeah, packet switching.

00:26:43.317 --> 00:26:46.599
Well, you see, it sounds crazy, right?

00:26:46.641 --> 00:26:49.502
Can't packet switching be one of the core

00:26:49.782 --> 00:26:50.703
concepts of

00:26:51.865 --> 00:26:53.405
this idea of teleporting,

00:26:54.027 --> 00:26:54.967
I would think it will be.

00:26:57.269 --> 00:26:58.490
So it's so cool.

00:26:58.529 --> 00:26:59.691
There's so many little things that you

00:26:59.711 --> 00:27:00.411
could start to see.

00:27:00.451 --> 00:27:02.873
Like, I think this could be, you know,

00:27:02.992 --> 00:27:04.274
that you could see sort of like,

00:27:04.614 --> 00:27:04.794
you know,

00:27:04.834 --> 00:27:06.955
these technologies are all put together,

00:27:07.056 --> 00:27:07.296
right?

00:27:07.355 --> 00:27:08.257
You know,

00:27:08.356 --> 00:27:09.917
a new technology is born from old

00:27:09.958 --> 00:27:12.559
technology or technologies.

00:27:12.740 --> 00:27:13.780
I think it's really amazing.

00:27:15.005 --> 00:27:19.728
Are there things that you use or take

00:27:19.768 --> 00:27:23.851
for granted now that you can link back

00:27:23.931 --> 00:27:27.133
in your mind to science fiction that you

00:27:27.153 --> 00:27:27.894
sort of grew up in?

00:27:27.913 --> 00:27:29.815
Because I was just thinking,

00:27:29.855 --> 00:27:31.215
I've got an Apple Watch, right?

00:27:31.836 --> 00:27:34.178
And talking into a watch that is smart,

00:27:34.198 --> 00:27:35.179
that can do stuff,

00:27:35.199 --> 00:27:37.441
that can send messages across distances,

00:27:37.480 --> 00:27:39.642
that can give me... I mean,

00:27:39.761 --> 00:27:40.843
Siri is yelling at me now.

00:27:41.403 --> 00:27:43.943
like you know like that was a thing

00:27:44.104 --> 00:27:46.345
like I I can I can literally see

00:27:46.765 --> 00:27:49.126
on in my head like memories of like

00:27:49.146 --> 00:27:51.988
seeing this on in Star Trek and other

00:27:52.008 --> 00:27:53.567
sort of like in like get get smart

00:27:53.607 --> 00:27:56.990
get smart yes get smart that's like like

00:27:57.049 --> 00:27:58.269
all these things where it was like like

00:27:58.611 --> 00:28:00.391
or like the Jetsons or things like you

00:28:00.411 --> 00:28:03.413
know like this is the wild imaginings of

00:28:03.492 --> 00:28:06.473
like some crazy far future but like no

00:28:06.513 --> 00:28:07.734
it's like stuff that we have in our

00:28:07.775 --> 00:28:08.394
hand yeah

00:28:10.086 --> 00:28:11.227
You want me to name something?

00:28:11.307 --> 00:28:12.987
Yeah, what is that?

00:28:14.208 --> 00:28:16.728
What things do you think about when you

00:28:16.748 --> 00:28:20.009
think about the sort of things that are

00:28:20.329 --> 00:28:20.950
normal now?

00:28:22.369 --> 00:28:23.151
A refrigerator.

00:28:23.451 --> 00:28:25.411
No, I'm just kidding.

00:28:25.852 --> 00:28:28.352
I say that in kidding, but my parents,

00:28:29.212 --> 00:28:31.313
they didn't have initially a refrigerator.

00:28:31.333 --> 00:28:33.713
They had a guy deliver an ice block,

00:28:34.314 --> 00:28:35.575
and that's how they refrigerated.

00:28:35.874 --> 00:28:37.255
Eventually, they had refrigerators, but...

00:28:41.232 --> 00:28:41.512
Well,

00:28:41.532 --> 00:28:43.575
the first real kind of technology that I

00:28:43.595 --> 00:28:45.636
was exposed to as a little kid was

00:28:45.676 --> 00:28:47.459
color TV.

00:28:47.499 --> 00:28:50.121
So I remember an era, very vaguely,

00:28:50.981 --> 00:28:53.483
where we just had black and white TV.

00:28:53.584 --> 00:28:56.086
And then they introduced color TV with the

00:28:56.346 --> 00:28:58.949
idea that men would want to buy this

00:28:58.969 --> 00:28:59.890
so they could watch TV.

00:29:00.288 --> 00:29:02.309
football every Sunday in color.

00:29:02.809 --> 00:29:04.750
Do you know that's how color TV took

00:29:04.871 --> 00:29:05.010
off?

00:29:05.030 --> 00:29:07.971
That was the gimmick that made it popular?

00:29:08.332 --> 00:29:09.612
I did not know that it was football.

00:29:09.811 --> 00:29:10.833
I'm not super shocked.

00:29:10.853 --> 00:29:12.153
You don't know enough old people.

00:29:12.854 --> 00:29:13.213
Yes.

00:29:17.035 --> 00:29:17.775
But it was true.

00:29:17.815 --> 00:29:18.796
The whole...

00:29:19.782 --> 00:29:21.242
machine behind color TV.

00:29:21.262 --> 00:29:21.583
I mean,

00:29:21.603 --> 00:29:23.784
the marketing and everything was geared to

00:29:23.824 --> 00:29:27.183
the NFL broadcasting Sunday games in color

00:29:27.723 --> 00:29:29.724
and guys had to have it in color.

00:29:29.805 --> 00:29:30.644
And away we went.

00:29:31.585 --> 00:29:32.384
So I, you know,

00:29:32.404 --> 00:29:34.124
I remember a little bit of that,

00:29:34.184 --> 00:29:36.546
you know, uh, NBC used to have a,

00:29:36.705 --> 00:29:39.586
a peacock that the feathers moved,

00:29:39.766 --> 00:29:40.807
the animated feathers.

00:29:40.846 --> 00:29:43.067
And they would say, uh,

00:29:43.086 --> 00:29:44.846
something like we're now broadcasting all

00:29:44.886 --> 00:29:48.508
of our stuff in color in full color.

00:29:48.528 --> 00:29:48.647
Um,

00:29:50.307 --> 00:29:54.568
So yeah, I remember all that stuff.

00:29:54.649 --> 00:29:56.930
And now I know that you mentioned a

00:29:56.970 --> 00:29:59.230
couple of times using AI and I know

00:29:59.250 --> 00:30:00.451
that you use that.

00:30:01.230 --> 00:30:03.211
You mean it's a passing fad, AI,

00:30:03.231 --> 00:30:05.012
let's face it.

00:30:05.073 --> 00:30:05.373
Is it?

00:30:05.393 --> 00:30:07.594
I mean, tell me.

00:30:08.493 --> 00:30:12.375
How do you see AI in the world

00:30:12.395 --> 00:30:14.876
that we are working in and how do

00:30:14.896 --> 00:30:17.097
you use it in sort of your work

00:30:17.117 --> 00:30:18.038
and your life?

00:30:18.577 --> 00:30:20.278
I'm going to give you the best answer

00:30:20.318 --> 00:30:21.380
I can give you is how do I

00:30:21.460 --> 00:30:21.779
see it?

00:30:22.039 --> 00:30:23.020
I can't tell you.

00:30:23.340 --> 00:30:27.143
I mean, I just don't know.

00:30:27.763 --> 00:30:30.105
I'm just not that smart to know.

00:30:30.164 --> 00:30:32.747
I should ask AI.

00:30:32.846 --> 00:30:33.366
In many ways,

00:30:33.426 --> 00:30:34.788
I think it's making me dumber.

00:30:34.807 --> 00:30:36.709
I don't think there's any question about

00:30:36.729 --> 00:30:38.230
that, but it's also making me smarter.

00:30:39.691 --> 00:30:41.971
And they talk about de-skilling,

00:30:42.311 --> 00:30:43.853
and I like to think of it as

00:30:44.133 --> 00:30:45.233
re-skilling, you know,

00:30:45.734 --> 00:30:46.895
I think I might have.

00:30:47.036 --> 00:30:47.375
Anyway,

00:30:49.417 --> 00:30:51.259
so it's enabled me to do things that

00:30:51.338 --> 00:30:55.541
I could not possibly do until it was,

00:30:56.063 --> 00:30:57.463
you know, until it's here.

00:30:59.325 --> 00:31:00.546
But there's no way to know.

00:31:00.885 --> 00:31:03.208
Anybody, you know,

00:31:03.228 --> 00:31:04.909
can't know where all this is going.

00:31:05.869 --> 00:31:07.931
I do think sort of what, you know,

00:31:07.951 --> 00:31:09.992
what I can see and maybe I think

00:31:10.272 --> 00:31:11.693
the next phase in the next couple of

00:31:11.733 --> 00:31:14.276
years will be total agentic A.I.,

00:31:14.907 --> 00:31:17.608
So that instead of it telling you how

00:31:17.649 --> 00:31:19.490
to fix something, it will just do it.

00:31:19.829 --> 00:31:20.410
So it'll say,

00:31:20.630 --> 00:31:21.950
here are the instructions to do this.

00:31:21.990 --> 00:31:23.070
Click on this and click on that.

00:31:23.111 --> 00:31:24.211
You'll just go, no, do it.

00:31:24.830 --> 00:31:25.471
Whatever it is.

00:31:25.852 --> 00:31:27.592
Some app, something in a browser,

00:31:28.032 --> 00:31:29.472
something in your operating system.

00:31:30.854 --> 00:31:31.634
These will just do it.

00:31:31.794 --> 00:31:33.253
Or you won't even have to ask it.

00:31:33.314 --> 00:31:34.815
It'll just do it on its own,

00:31:35.515 --> 00:31:36.816
which is maybe not.

00:31:36.935 --> 00:31:37.375
Who knows?

00:31:37.476 --> 00:31:39.496
But I could definitely see we're moving

00:31:39.556 --> 00:31:43.297
from an era from informational to

00:31:44.577 --> 00:31:45.877
you know, some kind of,

00:31:46.558 --> 00:31:47.659
it does it by itself.

00:31:47.798 --> 00:31:48.959
It does it if you ask it to

00:31:48.979 --> 00:31:50.160
do, which will be really cool.

00:31:51.099 --> 00:31:53.259
I think, I mean, you know,

00:31:53.279 --> 00:31:56.141
there's so many things now, you know,

00:31:56.181 --> 00:31:57.322
it's what I kind of see is like,

00:31:57.342 --> 00:32:00.102
there's a lot of companies sticking AI

00:32:00.142 --> 00:32:01.682
into their products and services.

00:32:01.843 --> 00:32:03.482
And I literally mean sticking it in

00:32:03.903 --> 00:32:04.884
because you don't need it.

00:32:05.364 --> 00:32:07.944
Like you'd AI into whatever,

00:32:08.684 --> 00:32:11.105
but some things are so like whisper flow.

00:32:11.405 --> 00:32:11.806
Okay.

00:32:12.405 --> 00:32:12.806
Is like,

00:32:13.637 --> 00:32:16.558
you're not really cognizant of the AI in

00:32:16.618 --> 00:32:16.739
it.

00:32:17.358 --> 00:32:17.919
It's there.

00:32:18.818 --> 00:32:19.858
And I think it's really cool.

00:32:19.999 --> 00:32:22.059
I like sort of that, uh,

00:32:22.279 --> 00:32:23.960
invisible nature of it.

00:32:23.999 --> 00:32:26.499
It's like anything else it's there and

00:32:27.020 --> 00:32:27.721
we're using it,

00:32:28.181 --> 00:32:29.201
but I don't need to know.

00:32:30.300 --> 00:32:30.580
Yeah.

00:32:31.141 --> 00:32:32.602
You know?

00:32:32.622 --> 00:32:34.382
So yeah, it's, it's a very,

00:32:34.422 --> 00:32:36.662
very interesting, fast paced,

00:32:36.721 --> 00:32:39.262
fast moving time we're living in.

00:32:39.522 --> 00:32:39.942
And, um,

00:32:42.249 --> 00:32:44.589
I think that the rate of change that

00:32:44.609 --> 00:32:46.130
we've experienced is particularly in the

00:32:46.150 --> 00:32:48.971
last twenty five years is really one of

00:32:49.010 --> 00:32:51.791
the causes of our so many disruptions in

00:32:51.852 --> 00:32:52.572
our society.

00:32:53.132 --> 00:32:56.512
People just can't adopt and adjust to

00:32:56.553 --> 00:32:58.313
these changes that fast.

00:32:58.353 --> 00:32:59.953
And we're having problems.

00:33:00.634 --> 00:33:00.894
Yeah.

00:33:01.013 --> 00:33:01.394
Yeah.

00:33:01.453 --> 00:33:01.594
Yeah.

00:33:01.634 --> 00:33:01.814
I mean,

00:33:01.874 --> 00:33:04.115
I think that even even talking about like

00:33:04.474 --> 00:33:04.815
like we're.

00:33:06.575 --> 00:33:09.016
The the world has not fully.

00:33:10.584 --> 00:33:11.734
recovered from

00:33:12.905 --> 00:33:13.767
Fax machines.

00:33:14.267 --> 00:33:16.047
Well, that,

00:33:16.649 --> 00:33:17.869
but I was going to say the internet,

00:33:17.930 --> 00:33:19.151
like, I think that like, you know,

00:33:19.671 --> 00:33:21.732
like the internet is still pretty young,

00:33:21.772 --> 00:33:23.013
especially if you're talking about like

00:33:23.054 --> 00:33:25.736
technology and like advancements and on a

00:33:25.776 --> 00:33:26.096
scale.

00:33:26.155 --> 00:33:26.916
And now we're like,

00:33:27.457 --> 00:33:29.598
like AI is just sort of like just

00:33:29.679 --> 00:33:32.881
a hyper, hyper, whatever, you know,

00:33:32.921 --> 00:33:33.942
it makes it even faster.

00:33:34.982 --> 00:33:35.563
And I agree.

00:33:35.603 --> 00:33:37.044
Like, I think that there's like,

00:33:37.124 --> 00:33:38.644
it's super wild Westie.

00:33:39.326 --> 00:33:39.506
Um,

00:33:39.605 --> 00:33:41.047
and we don't know what we don't know.

00:33:41.507 --> 00:33:41.647
Um,

00:33:42.488 --> 00:33:44.128
And, you know, I don't know about you.

00:33:44.189 --> 00:33:45.289
I'm sure this has probably happened to

00:33:45.309 --> 00:33:45.430
you,

00:33:45.450 --> 00:33:47.432
but that I've looked at something online

00:33:48.511 --> 00:33:50.634
and wasn't quite sure if it was or

00:33:50.673 --> 00:33:52.555
not AI.

00:33:52.654 --> 00:33:55.436
And it bothers me that I don't know.

00:33:55.718 --> 00:33:56.297
It really does.

00:33:56.498 --> 00:33:56.999
I should know.

00:33:57.019 --> 00:33:57.098
Yeah.

00:33:57.878 --> 00:33:59.160
Maybe there should be a disclaimer.

00:33:59.200 --> 00:34:00.480
Maybe there should be.

00:34:00.500 --> 00:34:01.721
I don't like it, you know,

00:34:02.942 --> 00:34:04.163
especially if it's something that's,

00:34:05.825 --> 00:34:07.326
you know, influencing a decision.

00:34:08.447 --> 00:34:09.907
I need to know if this is real

00:34:09.948 --> 00:34:10.367
or not.

00:34:11.269 --> 00:34:11.449
Yeah.

00:34:12.003 --> 00:34:12.263
Yeah.

00:34:13.084 --> 00:34:17.185
And maybe AI is what's real.

00:34:17.346 --> 00:34:18.306
Do you feel like you have an AI?

00:34:18.326 --> 00:34:19.006
I'm not going anywhere.

00:34:19.047 --> 00:34:20.346
I just dropped something.

00:34:20.366 --> 00:34:21.826
Do you feel like you have an AI,

00:34:21.846 --> 00:34:22.167
Dar?

00:34:22.547 --> 00:34:26.249
Do you feel like you can see AI,

00:34:26.409 --> 00:34:27.769
like if you're reading a blog post or

00:34:27.789 --> 00:34:28.069
something,

00:34:28.089 --> 00:34:29.650
and it doesn't say that it's written by

00:34:29.809 --> 00:34:32.030
AI or written with the assistance of AI,

00:34:32.050 --> 00:34:33.991
do you feel like you can pick up

00:34:34.031 --> 00:34:38.192
on the cues in the writing or in

00:34:38.232 --> 00:34:39.394
videos or anything like that?

00:34:39.614 --> 00:34:40.193
Mm-mm.

00:34:41.114 --> 00:34:41.693
I don't think so.

00:34:41.774 --> 00:34:44.175
I don't have like AI radar, you know,

00:34:44.736 --> 00:34:45.457
where I can tell.

00:34:45.717 --> 00:34:46.758
I do not think so.

00:34:46.877 --> 00:34:48.798
And I also think most people don't either.

00:34:48.858 --> 00:34:49.578
Yeah.

00:34:49.679 --> 00:34:49.940
Yeah.

00:34:51.059 --> 00:34:51.359
Yeah.

00:34:51.421 --> 00:34:55.442
Because it's just, you know, I mean,

00:34:55.482 --> 00:34:56.943
if you take any article and you stick

00:34:56.963 --> 00:34:57.203
it in,

00:34:57.683 --> 00:34:59.566
copy and paste it into chat GPT and

00:34:59.586 --> 00:35:00.326
say, what percentage,

00:35:00.665 --> 00:35:02.086
what's the likelihood that this is written

00:35:02.106 --> 00:35:02.667
by AI?

00:35:02.968 --> 00:35:04.528
You almost always get the same result.

00:35:04.709 --> 00:35:05.388
You'll see the answer.

00:35:05.449 --> 00:35:07.750
Well, some of it was, you know,

00:35:08.191 --> 00:35:08.790
here are the telltale...

00:35:10.172 --> 00:35:11.914
I don't think AI knows if it's AI

00:35:12.015 --> 00:35:13.517
anymore.

00:35:13.557 --> 00:35:14.678
So yeah,

00:35:14.978 --> 00:35:18.442
there's a lot of very serious challenges

00:35:18.481 --> 00:35:20.424
that it presents and serious

00:35:20.545 --> 00:35:21.346
opportunities.

00:35:23.608 --> 00:35:24.869
Yeah, it's just really,

00:35:24.930 --> 00:35:27.212
I don't know if human beings are ready

00:35:27.252 --> 00:35:28.714
to handle this stuff.

00:35:28.755 --> 00:35:29.875
I don't know.

00:35:30.460 --> 00:35:33.661
yeah i mean i i there's just a

00:35:33.721 --> 00:35:35.622
lot there's a lot there's a lot going

00:35:35.721 --> 00:35:37.903
on uh there's a lot that people there's

00:35:37.922 --> 00:35:39.563
a lot of disruption there's a lot of

00:35:39.684 --> 00:35:42.425
anxiety uh about like what does it all

00:35:42.465 --> 00:35:45.867
mean yeah i feel like we're feeling that

00:35:46.047 --> 00:35:49.487
in particular like in like our sort of

00:35:49.588 --> 00:35:52.929
web development sort of communities uh is

00:35:52.989 --> 00:35:55.050
it's a it's a huge point of anxiety

00:35:55.630 --> 00:35:57.711
Um, because like, if, if,

00:35:57.891 --> 00:36:00.893
if a robot can do my job faster

00:36:00.913 --> 00:36:02.432
than I can, what, what does that,

00:36:02.632 --> 00:36:05.153
where does that leave me?

00:36:05.173 --> 00:36:05.574
I don't know.

00:36:05.954 --> 00:36:07.855
I mean, you know, I've mentioned like,

00:36:07.954 --> 00:36:08.315
you know,

00:36:08.394 --> 00:36:10.255
writing and stuff is really diminishing.

00:36:10.376 --> 00:36:10.416
I,

00:36:10.876 --> 00:36:12.576
I think you sort of need to figure

00:36:12.635 --> 00:36:15.257
out a way to, as always reinvent yourself,

00:36:15.757 --> 00:36:17.577
figure out how to use the technology in

00:36:17.617 --> 00:36:18.077
a way that

00:36:22.201 --> 00:36:23.481
it can't do it for you.

00:36:23.661 --> 00:36:25.143
And what that really means,

00:36:25.182 --> 00:36:26.103
as far as I can tell,

00:36:26.764 --> 00:36:29.766
is bring your authentic self to whatever

00:36:29.806 --> 00:36:30.206
you do,

00:36:30.547 --> 00:36:32.289
because AI can't do that for you.

00:36:32.708 --> 00:36:33.730
So seriously, Bud,

00:36:33.769 --> 00:36:37.552
as a very authentic brand, you know, me,

00:36:39.114 --> 00:36:41.414
that AI cannot yet reproduce,

00:36:41.956 --> 00:36:44.097
and I don't want it to.

00:36:44.498 --> 00:36:47.440
And that is, you know, AI...

00:36:49.105 --> 00:36:51.326
Yes, it can do conversations and all that,

00:36:51.346 --> 00:36:53.846
but it can't do the kind of conversations

00:36:53.865 --> 00:36:56.226
that I do.

00:36:56.666 --> 00:36:57.847
I mean, it probably can,

00:36:57.887 --> 00:36:59.947
but it can't do it the way I

00:36:59.987 --> 00:37:00.307
do it.

00:37:00.688 --> 00:37:04.068
And if I have any value,

00:37:04.108 --> 00:37:05.128
that's what I can do.

00:37:05.289 --> 00:37:05.568
Right.

00:37:05.708 --> 00:37:07.028
Yeah.

00:37:07.048 --> 00:37:11.530
Because the show has developed a unique...

00:37:13.150 --> 00:37:14.469
style, brand.

00:37:14.610 --> 00:37:15.351
I'm aware of that.

00:37:15.490 --> 00:37:16.791
You know, I know what it is.

00:37:17.650 --> 00:37:19.070
And I knew when I started it,

00:37:19.110 --> 00:37:20.831
all you have to do is just be

00:37:20.871 --> 00:37:23.371
yourself and hopefully somebody will

00:37:23.411 --> 00:37:24.052
listen to it.

00:37:24.072 --> 00:37:25.813
And if not, you know,

00:37:26.032 --> 00:37:27.913
but I couldn't be anybody else.

00:37:27.932 --> 00:37:30.913
So who else was I going to be?

00:37:30.954 --> 00:37:33.114
So, yeah.

00:37:33.173 --> 00:37:36.594
So the, I mean,

00:37:36.614 --> 00:37:37.994
the idea to me is to

00:37:38.938 --> 00:37:41.922
is to bring some authenticity,

00:37:42.001 --> 00:37:45.666
some humanness to whatever it is that

00:37:45.686 --> 00:37:49.570
you're creating that AI cannot do.

00:37:49.630 --> 00:37:50.331
Whatever that means.

00:37:51.853 --> 00:37:54.494
do you get excited about uh or uh

00:37:54.574 --> 00:37:57.737
about what uh things are coming uh on

00:37:57.817 --> 00:38:00.557
the horizon or like the the development of

00:38:00.717 --> 00:38:02.860
of wordpress in particular like does no

00:38:03.440 --> 00:38:05.161
you don't get excited about that no i

00:38:05.201 --> 00:38:07.541
don't unfortunately i used to okay yeah

00:38:08.163 --> 00:38:10.304
i'm very disappointed and i hate to say

00:38:10.344 --> 00:38:12.945
this with the direction that wordpress has

00:38:12.985 --> 00:38:16.427
gone in i have tried so much to

00:38:18.081 --> 00:38:19.862
love full site editing and blocks and

00:38:19.902 --> 00:38:20.503
don't get me wrong.

00:38:20.563 --> 00:38:21.624
I do like a lot of it,

00:38:22.324 --> 00:38:22.945
but man,

00:38:22.985 --> 00:38:24.586
there's a lot of stuff in it that

00:38:24.626 --> 00:38:26.527
is just really sucky.

00:38:27.389 --> 00:38:29.431
And I'll give you a case in point.

00:38:29.550 --> 00:38:29.851
Okay.

00:38:30.411 --> 00:38:31.371
I'm doing something now,

00:38:31.831 --> 00:38:34.414
something very simple for the navigation.

00:38:34.574 --> 00:38:36.695
I want to create like a label.

00:38:37.336 --> 00:38:37.597
All right.

00:38:37.637 --> 00:38:38.538
So not a link,

00:38:38.577 --> 00:38:39.938
but just like a little piece of text

00:38:39.958 --> 00:38:42.260
that says something and then a dropdown

00:38:42.400 --> 00:38:43.541
off of that.

00:38:43.581 --> 00:38:44.242
Good luck.

00:38:44.981 --> 00:38:46.704
I'm using a twenty twenty five.

00:38:47.730 --> 00:38:50.090
And it has been torture.

00:38:50.291 --> 00:38:51.590
I have used AI.

00:38:51.630 --> 00:38:52.311
I've done this.

00:38:52.391 --> 00:38:53.052
I've done that.

00:38:53.092 --> 00:38:55.673
JavaScript, blah, blah, blah.

00:38:55.693 --> 00:38:56.452
Come on now.

00:38:56.512 --> 00:38:56.972
You know,

00:38:58.034 --> 00:39:00.355
for a time immemorial when we had classic

00:39:00.394 --> 00:39:01.974
themes, this was the easiest thing.

00:39:02.114 --> 00:39:03.175
You create a custom link.

00:39:03.195 --> 00:39:04.315
You put a hashtag in.

00:39:04.335 --> 00:39:07.177
You take the hashtag out.

00:39:07.297 --> 00:39:08.757
I mean, and now I can't.

00:39:08.958 --> 00:39:09.157
See,

00:39:09.298 --> 00:39:11.838
if you can do something from the past

00:39:11.918 --> 00:39:13.778
and you can't do it easily in the

00:39:13.838 --> 00:39:14.780
future, like, or...

00:39:15.806 --> 00:39:18.028
That is a bad situation.

00:39:18.710 --> 00:39:20.231
And yeah,

00:39:20.271 --> 00:39:24.755
so I see things in the current version

00:39:24.775 --> 00:39:25.655
of WordPress that is...

00:39:27.695 --> 00:39:29.637
I think in many ways,

00:39:29.998 --> 00:39:31.739
WordPress has lost its way.

00:39:32.278 --> 00:39:33.840
And I don't like to say that,

00:39:34.099 --> 00:39:34.340
you know,

00:39:34.360 --> 00:39:36.501
because I know there are so many smart

00:39:36.521 --> 00:39:37.963
people that work on the project.

00:39:38.282 --> 00:39:38.724
I don't.

00:39:39.244 --> 00:39:41.585
So I don't like to, I mean,

00:39:41.626 --> 00:39:42.606
you don't want me to.

00:39:43.487 --> 00:39:45.367
So it's easy to sit back and criticize.

00:39:45.568 --> 00:39:46.509
I understand that.

00:39:47.228 --> 00:39:48.170
But, you know,

00:39:48.329 --> 00:39:49.550
this is a project that I love and

00:39:49.610 --> 00:39:53.753
I just hate to see, you know, hey,

00:39:54.173 --> 00:39:55.434
is it any wonder that,

00:39:55.956 --> 00:40:00.943
that Elementor now accounts for a third of

00:40:00.983 --> 00:40:03.184
all websites, WordPress sites, I guess,

00:40:03.284 --> 00:40:04.166
using Elementor.

00:40:04.447 --> 00:40:05.106
Yeah.

00:40:05.126 --> 00:40:05.248
Yeah.

00:40:05.288 --> 00:40:06.688
I don't know how they include that into

00:40:06.809 --> 00:40:07.829
their, you know,

00:40:07.971 --> 00:40:09.532
their self-hosted Elementor.

00:40:09.612 --> 00:40:10.773
I don't think they do.

00:40:10.833 --> 00:40:10.893
Hmm.

00:40:12.650 --> 00:40:13.550
And having said that,

00:40:13.690 --> 00:40:15.552
Elementor just laid off a third of its

00:40:16.072 --> 00:40:17.273
three hundred people staff.

00:40:17.494 --> 00:40:17.753
Right.

00:40:18.054 --> 00:40:20.096
But the point is that's another.

00:40:20.115 --> 00:40:22.998
But a third of all WordPress sites use

00:40:23.099 --> 00:40:24.099
Elementor.

00:40:24.119 --> 00:40:24.999
What does that tell you?

00:40:25.221 --> 00:40:25.460
Yeah.

00:40:26.101 --> 00:40:26.342
Yeah.

00:40:26.461 --> 00:40:26.601
No,

00:40:26.902 --> 00:40:34.527
I did a live stream with Miriam and

00:40:35.329 --> 00:40:40.251
miriam who no miriam schwab uh and uh

00:40:40.371 --> 00:40:41.512
i can't remember who doesn't know miriam

00:40:42.393 --> 00:40:44.313
yeah i can't remember who who who they're

00:40:44.333 --> 00:40:46.355
uh the name of their their the tech

00:40:46.374 --> 00:40:48.516
guy now he's escaping my brain because i'm

00:40:48.536 --> 00:40:50.577
bad with names but uh anyway i had

00:40:50.597 --> 00:40:52.418
i did live stream with them about angie

00:40:52.438 --> 00:40:54.199
a couple months ago uh which is their

00:40:54.298 --> 00:40:55.679
ai thing and they said something about

00:40:55.739 --> 00:40:58.360
like yeah elementor powers uh thirty three

00:40:58.380 --> 00:40:59.641
percent of all wordpress sites and i'm

00:40:59.661 --> 00:41:01.402
like that can't be right and she's like

00:41:01.422 --> 00:41:03.242
yeah two million sites just throw two

00:41:03.282 --> 00:41:04.744
million sites it's like a number that's

00:41:04.864 --> 00:41:05.023
like

00:41:05.143 --> 00:41:07.184
wait what that's got you got to be

00:41:07.264 --> 00:41:10.186
kidding me that is ins that is insane

00:41:10.865 --> 00:41:12.467
and like especially when a short period of

00:41:12.507 --> 00:41:15.628
time ago it was ten percent right yeah

00:41:15.788 --> 00:41:18.409
yeah and and i i i think that

00:41:18.449 --> 00:41:20.969
you're right i think that like obviously i

00:41:20.989 --> 00:41:23.789
mean they have an incredibly talented team

00:41:24.150 --> 00:41:26.391
and they've done and and one of the

00:41:26.411 --> 00:41:28.652
things that that miriam said um when i

00:41:28.672 --> 00:41:29.851
had her on uh maybe it was on

00:41:29.891 --> 00:41:31.932
this show um was that like she felt

00:41:31.972 --> 00:41:33.634
like you know they they kind of caught

00:41:33.673 --> 00:41:34.393
lightning in a bottle

00:41:36.054 --> 00:41:37.675
um and they just like rode they just

00:41:37.795 --> 00:41:39.635
rode a wave and it was just sort

00:41:39.675 --> 00:41:41.876
of like serendipitous but i do think that

00:41:41.936 --> 00:41:44.938
it see says something about what people

00:41:44.998 --> 00:41:48.519
are are looking for and needing if there

00:41:48.579 --> 00:41:51.001
is one particular product that is

00:41:51.201 --> 00:41:53.722
dominating that much to that extent like

00:41:53.742 --> 00:41:55.862
there's obviously some there's the they're

00:41:55.882 --> 00:41:57.923
there right they're doing they've got to

00:41:57.943 --> 00:41:59.804
be doing something right and that is where

00:42:00.103 --> 00:42:02.124
like if it was any other product in

00:42:02.405 --> 00:42:03.826
in any other industry right

00:42:04.085 --> 00:42:06.086
and there's this many people using this

00:42:06.266 --> 00:42:08.507
one flavor of this product,

00:42:08.929 --> 00:42:10.869
then the company that ran the product,

00:42:11.190 --> 00:42:12.389
you know, owned that product,

00:42:12.409 --> 00:42:13.030
would be like, oh,

00:42:13.090 --> 00:42:14.311
we're going to put all of our ducks

00:42:14.411 --> 00:42:15.311
in this basket,

00:42:15.512 --> 00:42:16.371
all of our eggs in this basket,

00:42:16.391 --> 00:42:17.733
because this is the one that people want.

00:42:18.112 --> 00:42:19.414
And, like, focus on that.

00:42:19.454 --> 00:42:20.715
But, like, because...

00:42:21.668 --> 00:42:23.128
because they're a plugin because it's not

00:42:23.188 --> 00:42:24.269
core because of whatever,

00:42:24.309 --> 00:42:26.210
because WordPress is a project,

00:42:26.231 --> 00:42:28.873
but it's not really managed like a product

00:42:29.594 --> 00:42:31.996
because it's, it's open source.

00:42:32.076 --> 00:42:32.896
Anybody can contribute,

00:42:33.536 --> 00:42:35.197
which means that there's no product

00:42:35.277 --> 00:42:35.737
roadmap.

00:42:35.757 --> 00:42:37.920
There's no, you know, like,

00:42:37.960 --> 00:42:39.161
like there's user testing,

00:42:39.201 --> 00:42:40.681
but there's not like in the same sort

00:42:40.722 --> 00:42:42.222
of like feedback and,

00:42:42.342 --> 00:42:45.124
and consumer advisory boards and things

00:42:45.164 --> 00:42:46.626
like that, you know, like there's no,

00:42:46.646 --> 00:42:48.927
there's not as much opportunity for,

00:42:49.108 --> 00:42:49.989
for direction.

00:42:51.469 --> 00:42:52.690
Well, take, you know,

00:42:52.731 --> 00:42:54.755
when the Gutenberg Project was first

00:42:54.815 --> 00:42:57.260
announced years ago now, you know,

00:42:57.300 --> 00:42:59.385
Matt said there'd be four stages, okay?

00:42:59.965 --> 00:43:00.266
But

00:43:02.286 --> 00:43:03.786
nowhere was there any,

00:43:04.568 --> 00:43:06.108
there was no flexibility to say, you know,

00:43:06.588 --> 00:43:08.090
stage three collaboration.

00:43:08.110 --> 00:43:09.471
No, it's not going to work.

00:43:09.490 --> 00:43:10.492
We're going to do something else.

00:43:11.072 --> 00:43:12.393
You know, there's this thing called AI.

00:43:12.413 --> 00:43:13.813
We're going to focus on, you know,

00:43:14.315 --> 00:43:14.775
it was like,

00:43:14.874 --> 00:43:16.315
we're going to just go down this path

00:43:16.376 --> 00:43:17.016
no matter what.

00:43:17.217 --> 00:43:18.117
That's ridiculous.

00:43:18.858 --> 00:43:21.320
I mean, and we see that it's ridiculous.

00:43:21.699 --> 00:43:24.922
But now going back to Elementor,

00:43:25.023 --> 00:43:25.382
it's funny.

00:43:25.603 --> 00:43:26.983
I saw it when it first came out.

00:43:27.621 --> 00:43:30.163
And I was at a meetup in New

00:43:30.202 --> 00:43:31.943
York City and somebody demonstrated it and

00:43:32.023 --> 00:43:33.764
we all looked at each other like, wow,

00:43:34.326 --> 00:43:35.106
what a game changer.

00:43:35.146 --> 00:43:35.425
Of course,

00:43:35.806 --> 00:43:37.407
you only had the classic editor then,

00:43:37.467 --> 00:43:39.128
you know, there was no block editor.

00:43:40.009 --> 00:43:41.090
And we just said, boy,

00:43:41.110 --> 00:43:42.411
does this fill a need?

00:43:42.530 --> 00:43:43.931
If they don't screw this up,

00:43:43.992 --> 00:43:45.132
it's going to be huge.

00:43:46.193 --> 00:43:47.554
And I told Miriam the story,

00:43:47.614 --> 00:43:48.594
and she said, it's amazing.

00:43:48.655 --> 00:43:50.175
And I saw it when it was two

00:43:50.195 --> 00:43:51.577
hundred thousand downloads, you know,

00:43:52.518 --> 00:43:55.059
and turned out, you know,

00:43:55.260 --> 00:43:56.860
to be unbelievable.

00:43:57.646 --> 00:43:57.867
And,

00:43:58.188 --> 00:44:00.110
but they've also lost their way in a

00:44:00.130 --> 00:44:00.530
little bit.

00:44:00.630 --> 00:44:02.492
I think that they have strayed into things

00:44:02.532 --> 00:44:03.974
that they probably should have stayed out

00:44:04.034 --> 00:44:04.153
of.

00:44:05.014 --> 00:44:06.916
But the other side of the coin is

00:44:07.036 --> 00:44:08.938
a third of our WordPress sites use it.

00:44:09.619 --> 00:44:11.021
And obviously it tells you there's

00:44:11.061 --> 00:44:12.382
something wrong with the full site.

00:44:13.016 --> 00:44:18.320
with the block editor if that happened.

00:44:18.780 --> 00:44:19.621
I always thought it'd be,

00:44:19.882 --> 00:44:21.862
in the early stages of the Gutenberg

00:44:21.882 --> 00:44:23.403
project, I always thought, hey,

00:44:23.423 --> 00:44:25.706
why don't they just buy Elementor and just

00:44:25.726 --> 00:44:26.407
be done with it?

00:44:27.907 --> 00:44:30.170
And who's to say there wasn't discussions

00:44:30.329 --> 00:44:30.809
about that?

00:44:31.251 --> 00:44:31.710
I don't know.

00:44:33.132 --> 00:44:38.677
But yeah, it's a major, it's just,

00:44:39.786 --> 00:44:41.027
It's, well,

00:44:41.048 --> 00:44:43.190
you look at the block editor and you

00:44:43.210 --> 00:44:47.297
look at Elementor and there's still such a

00:44:47.378 --> 00:44:48.820
gap between the two of them.

00:44:49.501 --> 00:44:50.862
Maybe bigger than ever, you know.

00:44:51.572 --> 00:44:54.233
And I don't know how many folks in

00:44:54.253 --> 00:44:57.153
the WordPress community know this little

00:44:57.173 --> 00:44:58.695
factoid, but for a while,

00:44:58.855 --> 00:45:00.936
for a decent amount of time,

00:45:01.635 --> 00:45:04.577
the Drupal Association was looking at and

00:45:04.677 --> 00:45:08.498
evaluating Gutenberg to be the editor of

00:45:08.579 --> 00:45:09.599
choice in Drupal,

00:45:09.679 --> 00:45:11.039
and they decided against it.

00:45:11.460 --> 00:45:12.860
And instead, what they built,

00:45:13.081 --> 00:45:13.882
I've seen demos,

00:45:14.402 --> 00:45:16.163
it looks like all the things that full

00:45:16.202 --> 00:45:18.063
site editing and Gutenberg should have

00:45:18.103 --> 00:45:19.023
been but is not.

00:45:19.583 --> 00:45:21.905
Like, yeah, they, they, they like, they,

00:45:22.025 --> 00:45:23.327
they went, they were like, okay,

00:45:23.347 --> 00:45:24.969
we're going to, but it came really,

00:45:25.009 --> 00:45:25.710
really close.

00:45:25.749 --> 00:45:27.130
And I know Matt was really pushing for

00:45:27.170 --> 00:45:27.692
it and whatever.

00:45:28.652 --> 00:45:30.454
They came really close to adopting

00:45:30.795 --> 00:45:31.795
Gutenberg and then they,

00:45:31.916 --> 00:45:33.717
they backed out and they said, so, so,

00:45:34.318 --> 00:45:36.561
the end result is instead of using this

00:45:36.601 --> 00:45:37.581
thing that exists,

00:45:37.621 --> 00:45:39.222
that is built into WordPress and is,

00:45:39.242 --> 00:45:39.943
I guess,

00:45:39.983 --> 00:45:41.704
being built into Tumblr and whatever,

00:45:42.083 --> 00:45:43.144
you know, as, as a,

00:45:43.425 --> 00:45:45.626
like a de facto standard, they decided,

00:45:45.746 --> 00:45:46.007
no,

00:45:46.206 --> 00:45:48.789
we're going to write all of that ourselves

00:45:49.208 --> 00:45:50.289
the way that we want to do it.

00:45:50.309 --> 00:45:53.072
And, and from what I have seen, um,

00:45:53.532 --> 00:45:56.813
they've done a better job of doing that

00:45:56.853 --> 00:45:57.094
thing.

00:45:57.153 --> 00:45:58.034
How about that?

00:45:58.173 --> 00:45:58.333
You know,

00:45:58.353 --> 00:46:00.594
because the initial vision was that,

00:46:00.614 --> 00:46:00.874
you know,

00:46:00.894 --> 00:46:02.275
the block editor would sort of become a

00:46:02.396 --> 00:46:05.637
language that all these others, many,

00:46:05.697 --> 00:46:08.478
many, you know, non like, you know,

00:46:08.577 --> 00:46:09.858
let's say constant contact,

00:46:09.878 --> 00:46:11.340
we use it or whatever,

00:46:12.039 --> 00:46:13.840
any kind of publishing platform would use

00:46:13.860 --> 00:46:13.960
it.

00:46:14.340 --> 00:46:14.661
Yep.

00:46:14.840 --> 00:46:16.842
And there's nowhere near it's,

00:46:16.882 --> 00:46:17.842
that's not going to happen.

00:46:18.101 --> 00:46:18.362
Yeah.

00:46:18.402 --> 00:46:19.483
That is just not going to happen.

00:46:20.543 --> 00:46:21.764
Uh, so it's been a, um,

00:46:23.864 --> 00:46:24.664
A disappointment.

00:46:25.525 --> 00:46:26.405
Let's just say that.

00:46:27.266 --> 00:46:27.826
And I just,

00:46:29.086 --> 00:46:30.887
as much as I got Dwight Paul for

00:46:30.927 --> 00:46:33.588
it and wanted to be better, I just,

00:46:33.849 --> 00:46:34.168
you know,

00:46:34.289 --> 00:46:36.249
I think it's also a project that's just

00:46:36.309 --> 00:46:37.030
really stuck.

00:46:37.650 --> 00:46:39.512
It's sort of rudderless right now.

00:46:40.693 --> 00:46:43.193
I mean, you know, when Seven-O came out,

00:46:43.233 --> 00:46:44.454
the big thing was going to be real-time

00:46:44.494 --> 00:46:47.215
collaboration and they couldn't ship it.

00:46:47.255 --> 00:46:50.518
It tells you, you know,

00:46:50.818 --> 00:46:52.918
that everything's not so good.

00:46:53.978 --> 00:46:54.699
Yeah.

00:46:54.759 --> 00:46:55.659
So what else can we talk about?

00:46:55.739 --> 00:46:56.920
I'm sick of this stuff.

00:46:56.940 --> 00:46:57.960
Well, I was going to say, like,

00:46:57.981 --> 00:46:58.961
we're getting close to the end.

00:46:59.021 --> 00:47:01.664
I was going to say, yeah, I mean,

00:47:01.824 --> 00:47:04.146
it's it's we've we've blown through our

00:47:04.186 --> 00:47:04.507
time.

00:47:04.666 --> 00:47:05.907
And so I was going to give it

00:47:06.349 --> 00:47:08.911
give you an opportunity to to tell anyone

00:47:08.931 --> 00:47:11.032
who might be listening or watching this in

00:47:11.052 --> 00:47:11.572
the future.

00:47:12.853 --> 00:47:14.655
Where can they find you on the Internet?

00:47:15.123 --> 00:47:16.025
No, no, no.

00:47:16.085 --> 00:47:17.364
If you're doing this,

00:47:17.405 --> 00:47:19.186
let's do this like seriously, Bud style.

00:47:19.226 --> 00:47:21.166
You would say, so who do you recommend?

00:47:21.186 --> 00:47:22.327
I'm going to take over my podcast now.

00:47:22.387 --> 00:47:22.628
Yes.

00:47:23.007 --> 00:47:24.349
So who do you recommend I have as

00:47:24.389 --> 00:47:25.090
a future guest?

00:47:25.150 --> 00:47:27.231
Who do you recommend that I have as

00:47:27.271 --> 00:47:28.510
a future guest, Bud?

00:47:29.192 --> 00:47:30.431
On code and community.

00:47:30.452 --> 00:47:31.813
On community and code.

00:47:32.713 --> 00:47:33.474
Community and code.

00:47:33.494 --> 00:47:36.556
Well, you know, they always, you know,

00:47:36.596 --> 00:47:40.838
my guests, well, who have you had?

00:47:40.918 --> 00:47:41.418
Okay.

00:47:42.059 --> 00:47:42.878
Who do you want?

00:47:43.119 --> 00:47:43.920
Is there anybody you want?

00:47:46.010 --> 00:47:48.132
I've actually got a list.

00:47:48.152 --> 00:47:49.853
There's a bunch of people that I haven't

00:47:49.893 --> 00:47:51.253
reached out to yet,

00:47:51.273 --> 00:47:53.275
but I do have a list that is

00:47:53.335 --> 00:47:53.755
growing.

00:47:53.775 --> 00:47:54.074
Yeah, I know.

00:47:54.255 --> 00:47:54.896
I have a list too.

00:47:55.056 --> 00:47:55.695
Yeah, I get it.

00:47:56.356 --> 00:47:56.976
All right,

00:47:56.996 --> 00:47:59.018
so what was the real last question that

00:47:59.077 --> 00:47:59.257
you asked?

00:47:59.277 --> 00:48:02.280
The real last question was where can

00:48:02.300 --> 00:48:03.539
people find you on the internet if they're

00:48:03.561 --> 00:48:03.840
looking?

00:48:04.900 --> 00:48:05.842
Yeah, if you're looking.

00:48:06.681 --> 00:48:07.463
I have two sites.

00:48:07.682 --> 00:48:09.264
One is seriouslybud.com.

00:48:09.284 --> 00:48:10.744
What a surprise.

00:48:10.784 --> 00:48:13.146
That's seriouslybud.com.

00:48:14.014 --> 00:48:16.717
And I have all of my episodes archived

00:48:16.797 --> 00:48:17.916
there so you can hear all,

00:48:18.356 --> 00:48:19.398
including Chris's,

00:48:19.438 --> 00:48:21.318
which is a good episode.

00:48:22.199 --> 00:48:22.840
Good, not great.

00:48:23.360 --> 00:48:24.701
I think so.

00:48:25.081 --> 00:48:25.900
Good, not great.

00:48:26.461 --> 00:48:29.663
And you could also sign up for my

00:48:29.722 --> 00:48:30.603
newsletter there.

00:48:30.623 --> 00:48:32.344
And you could even apply to be a

00:48:32.405 --> 00:48:32.804
guest.

00:48:33.724 --> 00:48:36.327
So I like that.

00:48:36.407 --> 00:48:37.507
It's a fun kind of website,

00:48:37.547 --> 00:48:38.568
and I'm making it funner.

00:48:39.228 --> 00:48:42.289
And then the other site is joyofwp.com.

00:48:43.043 --> 00:48:45.666
And that's my serious site in that that's

00:48:45.686 --> 00:48:48.967
where I talk about the work that I

00:48:49.007 --> 00:48:52.030
do as a as a content creative.

00:48:53.230 --> 00:48:53.811
What I've done.

00:48:54.190 --> 00:48:55.572
There's a whole list of all this kind

00:48:55.592 --> 00:48:56.172
of stuff there.

00:48:56.552 --> 00:48:59.153
And if you're interested in hiring me

00:48:59.233 --> 00:48:59.634
anyway.

00:49:00.514 --> 00:49:00.795
Oh, yes.

00:49:01.054 --> 00:49:03.976
So but a joy of WP dot com

00:49:04.036 --> 00:49:06.018
is probably the best way to reach me

00:49:06.918 --> 00:49:09.699
or on Slack at joy of WP dot.

00:49:10.490 --> 00:49:11.271
Did I say Slack?

00:49:11.311 --> 00:49:13.494
I mean, Twitter, Joy of WP and Slack.

00:49:14.554 --> 00:49:17.657
I'm in the Make WordPress channel.

00:49:17.757 --> 00:49:20.360
I'm in the post status.

00:49:20.701 --> 00:49:21.742
You know, I'm easy to find.

00:49:22.682 --> 00:49:24.184
Somehow I get found.

00:49:24.483 --> 00:49:25.085
Facebook.

00:49:25.624 --> 00:49:26.565
Don't forget Facebook.

00:49:26.585 --> 00:49:27.106
Wow.

00:49:27.347 --> 00:49:28.307
People still use Facebook.

00:49:28.327 --> 00:49:29.628
No, I know people still use Facebook.

00:49:29.668 --> 00:49:32.472
My generation is the only one that still

00:49:32.532 --> 00:49:33.432
uses Facebook.

00:49:34.253 --> 00:49:34.813
What do you use?

00:49:34.893 --> 00:49:36.074
Instagram, TikTok?

00:49:36.135 --> 00:49:37.655
Yes, I definitely,

00:49:37.775 --> 00:49:39.056
definitely use Instagram.

00:49:39.115 --> 00:49:39.956
Yeah.

00:49:40.215 --> 00:49:40.775
Which is, which,

00:49:40.936 --> 00:49:42.677
which makes me old because yeah,

00:49:42.717 --> 00:49:43.657
that's not, that's not.

00:49:43.677 --> 00:49:44.117
It's true.

00:49:44.137 --> 00:49:44.277
Yeah.

00:49:44.418 --> 00:49:45.737
You're such an old guy.

00:49:45.757 --> 00:49:46.358
There's a particular,

00:49:46.378 --> 00:49:47.659
there's a particular generation that

00:49:47.878 --> 00:49:48.219
there's the,

00:49:48.239 --> 00:49:49.599
there's the generation uses Facebook.

00:49:49.619 --> 00:49:51.800
And then the next one behind that uses

00:49:51.960 --> 00:49:52.480
Instagram.

00:49:52.499 --> 00:49:53.661
And the next one behind that is like

00:49:54.021 --> 00:49:54.521
TikTok.

00:49:54.920 --> 00:49:57.121
We are so marked by all this,

00:49:57.161 --> 00:49:58.681
you know, like the words we use,

00:49:58.722 --> 00:50:01.563
the things we like, you know,

00:50:01.583 --> 00:50:02.664
I started realizing, God,

00:50:03.596 --> 00:50:04.637
The stuff I talk about,

00:50:04.737 --> 00:50:06.137
nobody knows what the hell I'm talking

00:50:06.157 --> 00:50:07.418
about.

00:50:07.498 --> 00:50:09.998
I go to WordCamp and, I mean,

00:50:10.099 --> 00:50:12.981
I have to explain what Star Trek was.

00:50:13.360 --> 00:50:13.541
Well,

00:50:13.561 --> 00:50:15.342
you never have to explain what Star Trek

00:50:15.362 --> 00:50:17.804
is to me.

00:50:17.824 --> 00:50:18.083
Not to you.

00:50:18.103 --> 00:50:19.403
Yeah, because you saw the reruns.

00:50:19.423 --> 00:50:20.324
You stinker you.

00:50:20.344 --> 00:50:21.766
Okay.

00:50:22.565 --> 00:50:24.706
Well, thanks again, Bud, for coming on.

00:50:25.106 --> 00:50:27.509
Thank you, everyone who might be watching.

00:50:27.809 --> 00:50:28.668
And, yeah,

00:50:28.688 --> 00:50:29.909
we'll see you all on the internet.