WEBVTT 00:00:00.556 --> 00:00:02.537 Hey, welcome back to Community & Code. 00:00:02.857 --> 00:00:03.778 I'm Chris Reynolds. 00:00:04.918 --> 00:00:07.119 My guest today has basically filled every 00:00:07.179 --> 00:00:09.060 role a WordCamp has to offer. 00:00:09.601 --> 00:00:12.262 Organizer, speaker, volunteer, attendee, 00:00:12.702 --> 00:00:13.242 you name it. 00:00:14.063 --> 00:00:15.964 Over more than ten years in the WordPress 00:00:15.984 --> 00:00:16.444 community. 00:00:17.345 --> 00:00:19.065 But lately she's been doing something a 00:00:19.085 --> 00:00:19.946 little bit different. 00:00:20.186 --> 00:00:22.367 Showing up at DrupalCon and DrupalCamps, 00:00:22.427 --> 00:00:23.088 taking notes, 00:00:23.488 --> 00:00:25.189 and coming back with some observations 00:00:25.229 --> 00:00:27.010 about what Drupal and WordPress could 00:00:27.050 --> 00:00:27.790 learn from each other. 00:00:29.177 --> 00:00:30.998 Miriam Goldman is a senior solutions 00:00:31.098 --> 00:00:32.638 architect at Pantheon, and yes, 00:00:32.718 --> 00:00:34.799 we did happen to be showing up to 00:00:34.819 --> 00:00:36.880 this recording wearing matching company 00:00:36.920 --> 00:00:37.400 hoodies. 00:00:37.861 --> 00:00:39.221 That wasn't planned, I promise. 00:00:39.971 --> 00:00:41.593 We get into the technical differences 00:00:41.653 --> 00:00:43.436 between how Drupal and WordPress handle 00:00:43.476 --> 00:00:44.637 dependencies and updates, 00:00:45.078 --> 00:00:47.661 why Drupal's module culture tends towards 00:00:47.721 --> 00:00:50.025 collaboration while WordPress' plugin 00:00:50.065 --> 00:00:51.947 culture trends towards competition, 00:00:52.628 --> 00:00:54.651 and why WordCamps might be leaving money 00:00:55.111 --> 00:00:57.575 and organizer sustainability on the table. 00:00:58.975 --> 00:01:00.536 We also talk about how she stumbled into 00:01:00.576 --> 00:01:01.857 WordPress in the first place, 00:01:01.897 --> 00:01:03.498 trying to build a website for her friend's 00:01:03.618 --> 00:01:04.299 church band. 00:01:04.819 --> 00:01:06.580 But the most fun part is talking about 00:01:06.600 --> 00:01:07.841 the non WordPress stuff. 00:01:07.961 --> 00:01:10.323 Miriam is a fourth degree black belt with 00:01:10.343 --> 00:01:12.624 a very specific origin story involving the 00:01:12.664 --> 00:01:15.046 Green Power Ranger and a weekly schedule 00:01:15.066 --> 00:01:16.787 that has her switching between clarinet 00:01:16.827 --> 00:01:18.608 and percussion and two different community 00:01:18.628 --> 00:01:19.829 bands. 00:01:19.889 --> 00:01:20.569 Let's get into it. 00:01:20.870 --> 00:01:22.491 Here's my conversation with Miriam 00:01:22.531 --> 00:01:22.851 Goldman. 00:01:43.423 --> 00:01:44.624 Welcome to Community & Code, 00:01:44.664 --> 00:01:46.304 the podcast where we talk to the humans 00:01:46.344 --> 00:01:47.144 behind the commits, 00:01:47.464 --> 00:01:49.145 and the human I'm talking to today is 00:01:49.204 --> 00:01:50.026 Miriam Goldman. 00:01:50.585 --> 00:01:53.386 Miriam is a longtime WordPress developer 00:01:53.466 --> 00:01:56.527 and community member, WordCamp organizer, 00:01:57.389 --> 00:01:59.489 and senior solutions architect at a 00:01:59.550 --> 00:02:00.469 company called Pantheon, 00:02:00.489 --> 00:02:01.730 where I also happen to work, 00:02:01.770 --> 00:02:03.930 and we also happen to be matching today 00:02:04.250 --> 00:02:05.311 with Pantheon Sweatshirts. 00:02:05.392 --> 00:02:06.933 So welcome to the show, Miriam. 00:02:06.972 --> 00:02:07.712 Tell us about yourself. 00:02:08.765 --> 00:02:09.285 Thanks, Chris. 00:02:09.326 --> 00:02:10.626 So, yeah, 00:02:11.366 --> 00:02:12.686 I've been involved with the WordPress 00:02:12.707 --> 00:02:15.368 community for over ten years now, 00:02:15.668 --> 00:02:18.189 and I've been a developer, 00:02:18.249 --> 00:02:20.310 I've been a WordCamp organizer, 00:02:20.350 --> 00:02:22.949 WordCamp speaker, WordCamp volunteer, 00:02:23.009 --> 00:02:24.390 WordCamp attendee. 00:02:25.110 --> 00:02:26.752 You name it with WordCamps, 00:02:27.052 --> 00:02:29.271 I have been involved with them. 00:02:29.652 --> 00:02:30.573 And recently, 00:02:31.332 --> 00:02:32.972 I've started to branch out more to the 00:02:32.993 --> 00:02:33.914 Drupal side as well. 00:02:34.713 --> 00:02:37.655 just because I don't feel it's good just 00:02:37.735 --> 00:02:39.955 to limit yourself just to one CMS. 00:02:40.256 --> 00:02:43.058 So I was at DrupalCon two weeks ago. 00:02:43.717 --> 00:02:46.039 I've been to DrupalCamp Ottawa twice, 00:02:46.319 --> 00:02:48.340 and I'm just kind of like wetting my 00:02:48.439 --> 00:02:50.001 feet into that community. 00:02:50.741 --> 00:02:51.522 Just right now, 00:02:51.542 --> 00:02:54.822 just attending or supporting Pantheon and 00:02:54.882 --> 00:02:58.944 just learning what WordPress can learn 00:02:58.965 --> 00:03:00.206 from Drupal and vice versa. 00:03:01.355 --> 00:03:03.998 I found when I went to DrupalCon, 00:03:05.438 --> 00:03:07.079 I found there's a lot of things that 00:03:07.159 --> 00:03:08.320 WordPress can learn. 00:03:09.840 --> 00:03:11.783 One of my takeaways from being there was 00:03:11.822 --> 00:03:14.623 that more WordPress people need to be 00:03:14.664 --> 00:03:16.284 going to DrupalCon and vice versa. 00:03:17.825 --> 00:03:22.629 What was your takeaway from going to your 00:03:22.649 --> 00:03:23.370 first DrupalCon? 00:03:25.146 --> 00:03:28.230 I would say is how vibrant the Drupal 00:03:28.269 --> 00:03:29.251 community is. 00:03:29.331 --> 00:03:31.673 There were so many conversations I had 00:03:31.733 --> 00:03:35.599 with developers and project managers, 00:03:36.019 --> 00:03:38.162 agency owners who were just 00:03:38.938 --> 00:03:42.679 really passionate about how Drupal is and 00:03:43.500 --> 00:03:45.941 just the excitement rather than just 00:03:46.381 --> 00:03:48.301 sometimes I've seen in the past couple of 00:03:48.322 --> 00:03:48.522 years, 00:03:48.542 --> 00:03:51.103 just kind of exhaustion in the WordPress 00:03:51.122 --> 00:03:53.443 community with some of the unfortunate 00:03:53.484 --> 00:03:56.365 drama over the past couple of years. 00:03:56.705 --> 00:03:57.746 I didn't see that in Drupal. 00:03:57.825 --> 00:04:00.646 I saw a genuine excitement for the 00:04:00.687 --> 00:04:03.608 technology and how they can really make it 00:04:03.668 --> 00:04:06.188 grow and make it better for everybody. 00:04:07.655 --> 00:04:10.976 what being someone who's been in WordPress 00:04:10.996 --> 00:04:11.556 for a long time, 00:04:11.596 --> 00:04:13.115 this is a tangent that I'm just personally 00:04:13.135 --> 00:04:13.556 interested in. 00:04:13.695 --> 00:04:14.015 So like, 00:04:14.036 --> 00:04:15.157 we'll get to the other stuff soon, 00:04:15.396 --> 00:04:15.616 but like, 00:04:15.717 --> 00:04:16.857 I really want to get into this. 00:04:18.016 --> 00:04:19.537 Being someone who's been in the WordPress 00:04:20.078 --> 00:04:21.337 world for a long time, 00:04:22.298 --> 00:04:25.519 what sort of like differences and 00:04:25.558 --> 00:04:29.438 similarities did you observe in the Drupal 00:04:29.478 --> 00:04:31.520 space from your experience of the 00:04:31.560 --> 00:04:32.359 WordPress community? 00:04:33.478 --> 00:04:34.740 Well, to be honest, 00:04:34.840 --> 00:04:37.381 I was mainly just at the Pantheon booth 00:04:37.441 --> 00:04:38.181 most of the time, 00:04:38.221 --> 00:04:40.562 but I did get to chat with folks 00:04:40.641 --> 00:04:42.823 over lunch and just if they needed help 00:04:42.863 --> 00:04:43.582 with something. 00:04:44.704 --> 00:04:47.064 The similarities I saw was, again, 00:04:47.164 --> 00:04:49.626 just a passionate and really caring about 00:04:49.665 --> 00:04:52.866 the technology and just how nice everybody 00:04:52.907 --> 00:04:53.127 was. 00:04:53.246 --> 00:04:56.528 I did not meet one rude or mean 00:04:56.588 --> 00:04:58.389 person when I was there. 00:04:58.408 --> 00:05:00.289 People were genuinely excited. 00:05:01.070 --> 00:05:01.931 And even when I'm like, 00:05:02.645 --> 00:05:04.706 Yeah, well, I'll be honest, 00:05:04.787 --> 00:05:06.307 WordPress is my background. 00:05:07.187 --> 00:05:09.008 I didn't get, oh no, your WordPress, 00:05:09.028 --> 00:05:09.508 get away. 00:05:10.049 --> 00:05:12.651 I got people who were genuinely excited 00:05:12.691 --> 00:05:15.512 that I was kind of like dipping my 00:05:15.551 --> 00:05:16.752 toes into Drupal. 00:05:18.473 --> 00:05:20.653 And the main difference, honestly, 00:05:20.693 --> 00:05:23.055 really comes down to the technology I 00:05:23.115 --> 00:05:23.495 found. 00:05:23.594 --> 00:05:24.295 It's just... 00:05:25.592 --> 00:05:28.199 a lot of things about composer differences 00:05:28.258 --> 00:05:30.945 and just really getting down to the nitty 00:05:30.966 --> 00:05:33.853 gritty about how there's certain things 00:05:33.913 --> 00:05:34.275 like, 00:05:36.489 --> 00:05:38.890 What happens if you pin Composer to this 00:05:39.050 --> 00:05:40.733 and you have an issue with one of 00:05:40.772 --> 00:05:44.955 your Composer plugins or something's going 00:05:45.157 --> 00:05:48.079 on with one of the modules and everything 00:05:48.539 --> 00:05:52.002 and versioning wasn't as much of an issue 00:05:52.122 --> 00:05:55.284 I found with WordPress plugins because 00:05:55.324 --> 00:05:56.105 WordPress plugins, 00:05:56.145 --> 00:05:57.487 it's a lot easier just to 00:05:58.567 --> 00:05:59.689 set it and forget it. 00:05:59.988 --> 00:06:01.930 And especially if you decide not to put 00:06:01.990 --> 00:06:02.790 auto updates, 00:06:03.250 --> 00:06:05.052 you could just leave it on an old 00:06:05.072 --> 00:06:06.574 version for decades. 00:06:07.634 --> 00:06:08.375 With Drupal, 00:06:08.555 --> 00:06:11.096 as long as you run your composer update, 00:06:11.177 --> 00:06:12.937 you're going to get more things and it's 00:06:13.057 --> 00:06:18.081 easier to just stay relevant and modern 00:06:18.442 --> 00:06:19.103 with Drupal. 00:06:21.483 --> 00:06:25.286 One of the things that I took away, 00:06:25.507 --> 00:06:27.187 one of the conversations that I was having 00:06:27.228 --> 00:06:28.149 when I was at DrupalCon 00:06:29.346 --> 00:06:31.427 they had just started talking about maybe, 00:06:31.466 --> 00:06:31.927 well, I mean, 00:06:31.966 --> 00:06:33.108 it was in the Dries note, 00:06:33.127 --> 00:06:34.267 but even before the Dries note, 00:06:35.387 --> 00:06:38.269 they were talking about the idea of like 00:06:38.649 --> 00:06:41.149 the commercial ecosystem around Drupal as 00:06:41.189 --> 00:06:42.750 composed to WordPress, 00:06:43.230 --> 00:06:46.913 but also just the module ecosystem as it 00:06:47.052 --> 00:06:48.613 was, as it stood, 00:06:49.273 --> 00:06:50.894 and as it stands now, I think, 00:06:51.754 --> 00:06:55.274 which is that there is this culture of 00:06:56.875 --> 00:06:59.899 If I have an SEO plugin and you 00:06:59.939 --> 00:07:00.819 have an SEO plugin, 00:07:00.839 --> 00:07:01.920 this is something I've talked about on the 00:07:01.942 --> 00:07:02.521 show before, 00:07:03.322 --> 00:07:05.786 then we're more likely to collaborate and 00:07:05.826 --> 00:07:10.310 make a better SEO plugin rather than be 00:07:10.389 --> 00:07:11.711 in competition with each other. 00:07:12.588 --> 00:07:13.668 in the Drupal ecosystem. 00:07:13.728 --> 00:07:19.173 And within WordPress, that is kind of, 00:07:20.132 --> 00:07:20.353 I mean, 00:07:21.293 --> 00:07:23.254 by and large in the WordPress ecosystem, 00:07:23.776 --> 00:07:24.976 if I have an SEO plugin and you 00:07:24.997 --> 00:07:25.757 have an SEO plugin, 00:07:25.776 --> 00:07:27.538 we're going to hold on to that IP. 00:07:27.557 --> 00:07:29.939 That is our intellectual property, 00:07:29.959 --> 00:07:31.000 and we might want to sell that at 00:07:31.021 --> 00:07:31.440 some point. 00:07:32.081 --> 00:07:34.002 So it creates more of this competition in 00:07:34.023 --> 00:07:35.043 the WordPress world and less 00:07:35.083 --> 00:07:35.764 collaboration, 00:07:35.783 --> 00:07:38.225 which is good for commerce and good for 00:07:38.264 --> 00:07:39.565 selling your plugin down the road, 00:07:40.007 --> 00:07:41.887 but maybe not good for the solution. 00:07:42.728 --> 00:07:45.108 like making a better SEO plugin or 00:07:45.129 --> 00:07:45.389 whatever. 00:07:45.428 --> 00:07:46.569 And that's also, I mean, 00:07:46.910 --> 00:07:49.370 that's at the time what was new was 00:07:49.389 --> 00:07:50.870 there is the SEO recipe, 00:07:50.911 --> 00:07:51.630 there is the AI, 00:07:51.750 --> 00:07:53.231 all the recipes are coming out with Drupal 00:07:53.252 --> 00:07:53.731 CMS. 00:07:54.391 --> 00:07:56.233 And that was kind of how those things 00:07:56.293 --> 00:07:57.012 evolved is like, 00:07:57.072 --> 00:07:59.314 let's figure out what the best things are 00:07:59.774 --> 00:08:01.334 that relates to this thing. 00:08:01.574 --> 00:08:03.274 Let's bring them all in from a variety 00:08:03.295 --> 00:08:04.055 of different sources. 00:08:04.136 --> 00:08:05.576 And then let's also collaborate and make 00:08:05.596 --> 00:08:05.976 it better. 00:08:06.536 --> 00:08:07.937 Um, and, and that's, 00:08:08.637 --> 00:08:11.557 that sort of energy of, of a collectivism, 00:08:11.858 --> 00:08:13.598 um, was really sort of refreshing. 00:08:14.158 --> 00:08:14.418 Um, 00:08:14.459 --> 00:08:18.040 but also it's at odds with making money 00:08:18.220 --> 00:08:18.699 on the thing. 00:08:18.720 --> 00:08:20.680 It's the joke of, of, you know, 00:08:20.901 --> 00:08:22.641 WordPress developers make money. 00:08:23.221 --> 00:08:26.742 Um, so now, uh, 00:08:27.846 --> 00:08:31.249 We've had a year since Dries first said, 00:08:31.389 --> 00:08:31.610 hey, 00:08:31.649 --> 00:08:34.031 let's think about how to build a Drupal 00:08:34.071 --> 00:08:36.372 marketplace and what that looks like. 00:08:37.072 --> 00:08:39.834 I imagine that there is a little bit 00:08:39.935 --> 00:08:41.435 more energy, 00:08:41.456 --> 00:08:43.356 a little bit more conversation around that 00:08:43.396 --> 00:08:45.398 happening in the Drupal ecosystem. 00:08:45.418 --> 00:08:47.439 Did you have any conversations around that 00:08:47.459 --> 00:08:47.978 when you were there? 00:08:48.620 --> 00:08:49.180 Not really. 00:08:49.240 --> 00:08:51.401 Most of my conversations were more about 00:08:51.481 --> 00:08:54.103 just like, I'm having this issue. 00:08:54.163 --> 00:08:56.144 It's more like tech support stuff. 00:08:56.264 --> 00:08:56.685 Yeah. 00:08:58.052 --> 00:09:01.475 I'm having an issue with upgrading to 00:09:01.555 --> 00:09:04.435 D-Eleven from D-Ten on this multi-dev, 00:09:04.656 --> 00:09:08.077 or I'm having Git workflow issues and 00:09:08.117 --> 00:09:08.557 everything. 00:09:08.577 --> 00:09:11.098 So that's what most of my conversations 00:09:11.139 --> 00:09:13.880 were, but I'm sure they were out there. 00:09:13.940 --> 00:09:14.581 Yeah. 00:09:14.601 --> 00:09:16.362 I need to watch this year's Dreece Note. 00:09:16.481 --> 00:09:17.021 I haven't yet. 00:09:17.041 --> 00:09:18.382 I've been a little busy. 00:09:18.403 --> 00:09:18.562 Yeah. 00:09:19.142 --> 00:09:21.824 I hear that. 00:09:23.709 --> 00:09:27.512 But so long time WordCamp person, 00:09:29.514 --> 00:09:31.476 what got you involved in WordCamps? 00:09:31.495 --> 00:09:33.918 You've had so much involvement in 00:09:33.978 --> 00:09:35.519 WordCamps for so long and so many 00:09:35.559 --> 00:09:38.362 different hats in WordCamps. 00:09:38.382 --> 00:09:39.863 And you also were one of the organizers, 00:09:39.903 --> 00:09:40.283 I believe, 00:09:40.783 --> 00:09:43.125 of WordCamp Canada this last year. 00:09:43.185 --> 00:09:47.588 So what pulled you into that besides just 00:09:48.550 --> 00:09:49.050 WordPress? 00:09:50.211 --> 00:09:55.475 So let's go back to twenty thirteen. 00:09:56.714 --> 00:09:59.937 That's when WordCamp Ottawa first came to 00:09:59.956 --> 00:10:00.297 the city. 00:10:00.356 --> 00:10:02.738 We really didn't have too big of a 00:10:02.819 --> 00:10:05.060 WordCamp scene back then in Canada. 00:10:05.920 --> 00:10:07.021 So at the time, 00:10:07.540 --> 00:10:09.583 my manager where I worked was just like, 00:10:10.262 --> 00:10:10.483 hey, 00:10:10.523 --> 00:10:12.483 there's this thing called WordCamp coming 00:10:12.504 --> 00:10:13.044 to Ottawa. 00:10:13.284 --> 00:10:14.546 I've been to the one in Toronto. 00:10:15.066 --> 00:10:15.927 You should go to it. 00:10:16.647 --> 00:10:19.249 And so I went and I really enjoyed 00:10:19.308 --> 00:10:19.448 it. 00:10:19.808 --> 00:10:21.289 So I attended in twenty thirteen, 00:10:21.350 --> 00:10:23.672 twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen. 00:10:23.731 --> 00:10:24.952 I had to go to Montreal because we 00:10:24.993 --> 00:10:25.952 didn't have one in Ottawa. 00:10:27.114 --> 00:10:29.476 And then in twenty sixteen, 00:10:29.655 --> 00:10:30.657 my manager is like, 00:10:31.496 --> 00:10:33.658 hey you know what you should you know 00:10:33.678 --> 00:10:35.500 your stuff you should speak at a word 00:10:35.519 --> 00:10:40.464 camp so i did my first talk i 00:10:41.384 --> 00:10:44.788 chose doing multilingual plugins in ottawa 00:10:44.927 --> 00:10:48.230 in the nation's capital which can be a 00:10:48.269 --> 00:10:53.495 very fiery thing so at the time i 00:10:53.534 --> 00:10:54.995 was just like i don't know if i 00:10:55.015 --> 00:10:57.357 want to do this so then i'm like 00:10:57.577 --> 00:10:58.759 but i'll organize 00:10:59.993 --> 00:11:02.355 then i also was like hey i can 00:11:03.336 --> 00:11:06.058 talk but i'm horrible at slides so i 00:11:06.078 --> 00:11:07.801 did a whole bunch of panels about women 00:11:07.821 --> 00:11:16.149 in wordpress and i kept organizing and i 00:11:16.168 --> 00:11:20.011 just added that and then it just built 00:11:20.072 --> 00:11:23.895 up from there and honestly wordcamps have 00:11:23.916 --> 00:11:24.275 gotten me 00:11:25.701 --> 00:11:28.402 two of my past jobs it got me 00:11:28.461 --> 00:11:30.844 my job here at pantheon and it got 00:11:30.884 --> 00:11:33.085 me my job at canopy studios where i 00:11:33.105 --> 00:11:35.105 worked before coming to pantheon so it's 00:11:35.145 --> 00:11:38.967 just kind of like that alone kind of 00:11:39.067 --> 00:11:41.828 makes me want to stay involved because i'm 00:11:41.849 --> 00:11:45.551 like hey it's gotta be network connections 00:11:45.610 --> 00:11:48.952 and it's gotta be employed but it's also 00:11:49.033 --> 00:11:50.833 just the amount of things you can learn 00:11:51.033 --> 00:11:52.154 and how it can push you 00:11:54.335 --> 00:11:58.619 Having been on the organizing side of 00:11:58.859 --> 00:12:00.320 WordCamps, and granted, 00:12:01.321 --> 00:12:03.903 even WordCamp Canada is a scale or two 00:12:03.982 --> 00:12:07.765 smaller than something at DrupalCon scale, 00:12:07.785 --> 00:12:10.107 but what 00:12:12.043 --> 00:12:13.864 having just come back from DrupalCon, 00:12:14.565 --> 00:12:17.206 what do you, like, in terms of, like, 00:12:17.326 --> 00:12:18.648 how the event was organized, 00:12:18.668 --> 00:12:19.849 did you see any sort of, like, 00:12:19.969 --> 00:12:22.811 differences that kind of jumped out at you 00:12:23.230 --> 00:12:26.793 in how DrupalCon was organized or built or 00:12:26.813 --> 00:12:28.596 collected, you know, 00:12:28.775 --> 00:12:31.758 or versus how WordCamps are kind of 00:12:32.237 --> 00:12:33.178 handled and organized? 00:12:34.580 --> 00:12:36.562 It's hard to say because I was just 00:12:36.642 --> 00:12:38.822 there kind of as a sponsor. 00:12:39.163 --> 00:12:39.384 Mm-hmm. 00:12:40.140 --> 00:12:40.461 And, 00:12:40.682 --> 00:12:45.164 but overall it looked like pretty 00:12:45.284 --> 00:12:45.764 organized. 00:12:45.804 --> 00:12:48.006 Like if I compare it to when I 00:12:48.047 --> 00:12:51.308 did Work Camp US as an organizer a 00:12:51.328 --> 00:12:52.309 couple of years ago, 00:12:52.509 --> 00:12:55.251 I would say it's very similar to that. 00:12:57.153 --> 00:12:57.572 However, 00:12:57.692 --> 00:12:59.975 I would say that things were just a 00:13:00.054 --> 00:13:02.136 lot more organized and 00:13:04.485 --> 00:13:07.750 I don't know who the actual organizers are 00:13:08.110 --> 00:13:08.931 at DrupalCon, 00:13:08.951 --> 00:13:10.813 but I did see some board members come 00:13:10.833 --> 00:13:11.214 around. 00:13:11.293 --> 00:13:13.277 Like, some are just like, hey, 00:13:13.317 --> 00:13:15.219 we have these extra DrupalCon beers. 00:13:15.379 --> 00:13:16.179 Do you want one? 00:13:16.640 --> 00:13:17.942 I'm like, yeah, 00:13:17.981 --> 00:13:19.183 that wouldn't have flown that work out. 00:13:19.224 --> 00:13:19.464 Yeah. 00:13:19.484 --> 00:13:22.147 So, yeah. 00:13:24.107 --> 00:13:24.668 When I went, 00:13:25.509 --> 00:13:26.509 I spent a lot of time, 00:13:26.589 --> 00:13:28.350 so I went to the community summit and 00:13:29.409 --> 00:13:30.971 I spent a lot of time trying to 00:13:30.990 --> 00:13:33.451 just have conversations that weren't 00:13:33.491 --> 00:13:36.673 necessarily about troubleshooting at the 00:13:36.712 --> 00:13:38.254 event and really try to take in as 00:13:38.313 --> 00:13:38.933 much as I could. 00:13:39.153 --> 00:13:41.914 And part of what I learned and came 00:13:41.934 --> 00:13:44.076 away with was, well, A, yes, 00:13:45.216 --> 00:13:46.956 they feel very similar. 00:13:47.616 --> 00:13:50.438 One of the big takeaways was like, yeah, 00:13:50.458 --> 00:13:50.979 this feels, 00:13:51.739 --> 00:13:53.159 Like, this doesn't feel any different. 00:13:53.179 --> 00:13:54.380 This doesn't feel any different. 00:13:54.500 --> 00:13:56.001 I expect it to feel different because 00:13:56.501 --> 00:13:57.783 different community, different technology, 00:13:57.802 --> 00:14:00.384 but also it's a, what, 00:14:00.644 --> 00:14:02.567 one thousand dollar conference versus a, 00:14:02.746 --> 00:14:04.148 like, fifty dollar, 00:14:04.207 --> 00:14:05.928 hundred dollar conference for WordCamp US. 00:14:05.948 --> 00:14:06.168 So, like, 00:14:06.629 --> 00:14:09.951 there's a major difference in cost. 00:14:11.253 --> 00:14:12.955 But it doesn't feel any different as an 00:14:12.995 --> 00:14:13.355 event. 00:14:13.514 --> 00:14:16.477 And that was interesting because it kind 00:14:16.557 --> 00:14:19.740 of led me to the idea, I mean, 00:14:19.961 --> 00:14:21.123 an idea that I've had for a while, 00:14:21.163 --> 00:14:23.504 which is WordCamps can probably charge 00:14:23.565 --> 00:14:24.905 more. 00:14:24.966 --> 00:14:27.328 Especially the flagship ones, 00:14:27.568 --> 00:14:28.830 they could probably charge more. 00:14:28.950 --> 00:14:30.572 You could probably charge a couple hundred 00:14:30.611 --> 00:14:30.892 bucks. 00:14:31.732 --> 00:14:31.952 And 00:14:32.854 --> 00:14:36.038 Part of the observation that I made, 00:14:36.859 --> 00:14:38.179 some of the stuff that was talked about 00:14:38.200 --> 00:14:40.582 at the community summit was around like, 00:14:40.682 --> 00:14:40.822 well, 00:14:40.842 --> 00:14:44.748 the reason why the Drupal Association 00:14:44.847 --> 00:14:50.114 exists is in part because when DrupalCamp 00:14:50.153 --> 00:14:51.635 started happening and then DrupalCon 00:14:51.716 --> 00:14:52.376 started happening, 00:14:52.937 --> 00:14:54.756 Dries realized pretty quickly that he 00:14:54.777 --> 00:14:55.977 didn't want to organize everything 00:14:56.018 --> 00:14:56.538 himself. 00:14:57.038 --> 00:15:00.438 And so he formed a body, a board, 00:15:01.278 --> 00:15:03.678 and basically made it one of the jobs 00:15:03.740 --> 00:15:06.259 of the board to do the organizing for 00:15:06.500 --> 00:15:07.320 the DrupalCons. 00:15:07.820 --> 00:15:10.821 And then all the money that is generated 00:15:11.041 --> 00:15:13.621 from DrupalCon goes to the board to 00:15:13.701 --> 00:15:14.282 actually pay 00:15:14.981 --> 00:15:16.601 positions and people that are on the board 00:15:16.621 --> 00:15:17.562 and to do things, 00:15:17.582 --> 00:15:20.302 but also so the board has financial 00:15:20.342 --> 00:15:22.964 ability to put that money towards specific 00:15:23.024 --> 00:15:23.803 Drupal development. 00:15:25.844 --> 00:15:30.904 And I've always thought that because the 00:15:31.004 --> 00:15:32.385 two events are so similar, 00:15:32.426 --> 00:15:34.326 because they're basically the same scale, 00:15:35.586 --> 00:15:37.886 and because we obviously have this thing 00:15:37.927 --> 00:15:38.506 over here, 00:15:39.307 --> 00:15:42.327 a model for a CMS that powers, what, 00:15:42.528 --> 00:15:44.347 two or three percent of the web? 00:15:45.402 --> 00:15:47.102 generating a lot of revenue and basically 00:15:47.143 --> 00:15:48.625 having the same number of people coming, 00:15:48.644 --> 00:15:49.745 twelve, thirteen, fourteen, 00:15:49.784 --> 00:15:50.586 fifteen hundred people, 00:15:51.927 --> 00:15:55.730 that's almost like a lost opportunity in 00:15:55.750 --> 00:15:58.072 the WordPress space to have a similar sort 00:15:58.111 --> 00:15:59.332 of model where, again, 00:15:59.373 --> 00:16:01.254 we could just bump the price up a 00:16:01.293 --> 00:16:01.693 little bit, 00:16:01.754 --> 00:16:03.816 pay people to actually event organize, 00:16:04.255 --> 00:16:05.797 and then also maybe have some stuff left 00:16:05.856 --> 00:16:08.278 over to direct funds towards actual 00:16:08.659 --> 00:16:10.301 projects that the community cares about. 00:16:11.321 --> 00:16:12.001 Yeah, no, I agree. 00:16:12.022 --> 00:16:14.482 Because having been an organizer, 00:16:14.543 --> 00:16:16.663 because sometimes, like, 00:16:16.703 --> 00:16:19.166 it's all volunteer on the work camp. 00:16:19.446 --> 00:16:22.927 And I was the volunteer team lead, 00:16:23.268 --> 00:16:24.008 like actually, 00:16:24.487 --> 00:16:26.188 both for Work Camp Canada and Work Camp 00:16:26.349 --> 00:16:26.809 US. 00:16:27.789 --> 00:16:30.130 And just sometimes I just felt thankless, 00:16:30.652 --> 00:16:31.932 to be perfectly honest. 00:16:32.133 --> 00:16:32.413 And 00:16:33.533 --> 00:16:36.615 it's like yeah you've got the volunteers 00:16:36.676 --> 00:16:38.258 and you're encouraging them and everything 00:16:38.378 --> 00:16:40.500 but and there's that whole thing about 00:16:40.679 --> 00:16:42.861 okay i'm giving back to the community this 00:16:42.902 --> 00:16:46.785 feels good but beyond that how can you 00:16:46.826 --> 00:16:48.748 help it grow because you can give back 00:16:48.768 --> 00:16:50.469 to the community but if the community 00:16:50.570 --> 00:16:52.311 doesn't want to embrace it then it's just 00:16:52.351 --> 00:16:55.073 going to be dead in the water 00:16:55.971 --> 00:16:57.471 Yeah, yeah, for sure. 00:16:58.292 --> 00:17:00.592 That's, I feel that really hard. 00:17:01.413 --> 00:17:04.414 I was involved in WordCamp Salt Lake City 00:17:04.455 --> 00:17:05.395 for a really long time. 00:17:06.676 --> 00:17:07.856 And I was an organizer, 00:17:07.876 --> 00:17:09.398 I was co organizer for two years, 00:17:09.418 --> 00:17:10.798 and then I was lead organizer for two 00:17:10.837 --> 00:17:11.058 years. 00:17:11.078 --> 00:17:13.220 So I did four years of basically lead 00:17:13.299 --> 00:17:13.779 organizing. 00:17:14.832 --> 00:17:15.854 WordCamp Salt Lake City. 00:17:16.254 --> 00:17:17.294 And so after I was done, 00:17:17.355 --> 00:17:20.216 after that second year of being solo lead, 00:17:20.235 --> 00:17:21.636 I was like, okay, 00:17:21.657 --> 00:17:22.957 someone else can do this. 00:17:24.618 --> 00:17:26.919 And I think the year after that, 00:17:27.299 --> 00:17:28.559 it sort of just stuttered. 00:17:28.580 --> 00:17:31.142 We didn't have anybody that was willing to 00:17:31.162 --> 00:17:33.602 take up the reins to lead organize. 00:17:33.623 --> 00:17:34.803 And then after that was COVID. 00:17:34.923 --> 00:17:36.565 And then that was just like, 00:17:36.605 --> 00:17:39.466 there hasn't been momentum in the local 00:17:39.505 --> 00:17:40.427 community since then. 00:17:40.706 --> 00:17:40.907 And 00:17:41.326 --> 00:17:43.827 It's that thing of where like, yeah, 00:17:43.908 --> 00:17:44.408 like you need, 00:17:44.567 --> 00:17:46.327 you need to like figure out like a 00:17:46.548 --> 00:17:47.307 chain of command, 00:17:47.347 --> 00:17:48.548 like a passing on the torch sort of 00:17:48.568 --> 00:17:48.808 thing. 00:17:49.168 --> 00:17:51.089 But also like if, 00:17:51.389 --> 00:17:53.330 if there aren't people involved that are 00:17:53.370 --> 00:17:57.330 like putting a ton of themselves into this 00:17:58.610 --> 00:18:01.811 mostly invisible labor, then yeah, 00:18:01.831 --> 00:18:03.871 it's just gonna, it's just gonna stall. 00:18:03.892 --> 00:18:03.991 Yeah. 00:18:05.711 --> 00:18:07.452 And then there's the risk of those people 00:18:07.893 --> 00:18:08.832 getting burnt out. 00:18:09.072 --> 00:18:09.393 Like, 00:18:10.315 --> 00:18:11.456 I have seen like, 00:18:11.576 --> 00:18:13.677 we're lucky up here in Canada that we 00:18:13.716 --> 00:18:16.457 have this year, 00:18:16.518 --> 00:18:17.758 they're having Work Camp Canada out in 00:18:17.778 --> 00:18:19.318 Vancouver in November. 00:18:19.759 --> 00:18:21.679 I'm actually not an organizer this year. 00:18:22.541 --> 00:18:23.541 And as of right now, 00:18:23.561 --> 00:18:24.442 I'm not a volunteer. 00:18:25.121 --> 00:18:26.081 That might change. 00:18:26.142 --> 00:18:27.182 We'll see what happens. 00:18:28.049 --> 00:18:31.594 But it's just people burn out so easily 00:18:31.634 --> 00:18:34.035 when they put so much of themselves into 00:18:34.076 --> 00:18:34.517 this. 00:18:35.258 --> 00:18:36.318 And if people are burnt out, 00:18:36.359 --> 00:18:38.741 they don't want to train the next 00:18:38.881 --> 00:18:40.683 generation, for lack of better words, 00:18:40.724 --> 00:18:41.403 to do it. 00:18:41.544 --> 00:18:43.346 And it's kind of like this 00:18:43.466 --> 00:18:44.607 catch-twenty-two almost. 00:18:44.628 --> 00:18:45.108 Mm-hmm. 00:18:46.160 --> 00:18:47.222 Yeah, or even have, 00:18:47.901 --> 00:18:49.483 like the energy even like, 00:18:49.922 --> 00:18:51.263 if you're if you're burning out, 00:18:51.302 --> 00:18:52.803 or if you've done it long enough that 00:18:52.823 --> 00:18:54.504 you're now like sort of feeling cynical 00:18:54.544 --> 00:18:55.145 about the whole thing, 00:18:55.165 --> 00:18:56.485 you're probably not the best person to be 00:18:56.525 --> 00:19:02.187 training the next generation either. 00:19:02.247 --> 00:19:05.370 So beyond WordPress, well, let's go back. 00:19:06.090 --> 00:19:08.670 What's what was the first thing that like 00:19:08.831 --> 00:19:10.512 led you into WordPress to begin with? 00:19:12.311 --> 00:19:15.152 um it was the fact that i was 00:19:15.213 --> 00:19:18.976 playing with my friend's church band i was 00:19:19.015 --> 00:19:22.138 playing clarinet with them and they wanted 00:19:22.177 --> 00:19:24.959 to make a website and they knew i 00:19:24.979 --> 00:19:27.462 was just starting out in web development i 00:19:27.482 --> 00:19:29.964 think i was three four years out of 00:19:30.004 --> 00:19:30.883 college at that point 00:19:31.885 --> 00:19:32.606 And they're like, Hey, 00:19:32.626 --> 00:19:33.647 can you build us a website, 00:19:33.668 --> 00:19:35.188 but we want to update it ourselves. 00:19:35.270 --> 00:19:37.431 So I looked into WordPress, 00:19:37.472 --> 00:19:38.613 I looked into Drupal, 00:19:38.813 --> 00:19:40.416 I think I don't even remember what version 00:19:40.616 --> 00:19:42.718 Drupal was like a Drupal five or six 00:19:42.758 --> 00:19:43.258 back then. 00:19:44.060 --> 00:19:47.445 Looked at Joomla, I think back then. 00:19:48.550 --> 00:19:49.091 Moodle, 00:19:49.650 --> 00:19:50.591 I looked at a whole bunch of different 00:19:50.651 --> 00:19:53.313 options and WordPress seemed like it was 00:19:53.333 --> 00:19:56.055 the best option because I'd been just 00:19:56.075 --> 00:19:58.638 doing some blogging about like when I was 00:19:58.658 --> 00:20:00.239 in university, me like, Hey, 00:20:00.340 --> 00:20:01.620 I wrote this school paper. 00:20:02.742 --> 00:20:05.684 And then I just started falling into it. 00:20:05.803 --> 00:20:07.004 And for about three, 00:20:07.044 --> 00:20:09.226 four years I was working for the Canadian 00:20:09.266 --> 00:20:09.726 government. 00:20:09.746 --> 00:20:11.688 So I couldn't use it professionally. 00:20:13.001 --> 00:20:14.841 And then I got a job back in 00:20:14.861 --> 00:20:15.703 the private sector, 00:20:15.882 --> 00:20:17.584 and it was with WordPress. 00:20:17.864 --> 00:20:19.646 And I'm like, hey, cool, 00:20:19.666 --> 00:20:20.706 this can be my career. 00:20:21.127 --> 00:20:24.689 And then almost every single job just kept 00:20:24.729 --> 00:20:27.052 doing PHP developer, WordPress developer. 00:20:28.493 --> 00:20:30.294 And I'm just like, cool, I like this. 00:20:30.695 --> 00:20:32.755 I can really build some cool stuff with 00:20:32.815 --> 00:20:32.976 it. 00:20:32.996 --> 00:20:35.938 And it was kind of like a happy 00:20:35.998 --> 00:20:37.100 accident in a way. 00:20:37.439 --> 00:20:37.719 Mm-hmm. 00:20:37.800 --> 00:20:38.440 Mm-hmm. 00:20:40.287 --> 00:20:40.447 Yeah, 00:20:40.507 --> 00:20:45.151 I think one of the things that I 00:20:46.072 --> 00:20:48.455 noticed the most and one of the main 00:20:48.475 --> 00:20:49.696 things that led me to, 00:20:49.916 --> 00:20:50.835 when I was freelancing, 00:20:50.876 --> 00:20:53.779 decide that I wanted to just focus on 00:20:53.839 --> 00:20:55.139 WordPress was, A, 00:20:56.841 --> 00:20:58.361 how easy it was to use and how 00:20:58.443 --> 00:20:59.964 easy it was to teach to people who 00:21:00.803 --> 00:21:02.505 didn't have a lot of technical experience, 00:21:03.186 --> 00:21:04.367 but also that... 00:21:06.217 --> 00:21:07.599 whenever I had a question, 00:21:07.938 --> 00:21:10.140 there was always an answer somewhere. 00:21:10.380 --> 00:21:11.881 If I had a question about Joomla or 00:21:12.263 --> 00:21:14.043 if I had a question about some other 00:21:14.883 --> 00:21:15.705 smaller thing, 00:21:16.585 --> 00:21:18.726 I would do a search and maybe I 00:21:18.746 --> 00:21:20.408 would find an answer or maybe I wouldn't. 00:21:20.447 --> 00:21:21.870 But if I had a question about anything 00:21:21.889 --> 00:21:23.110 that I needed to do in WordPress, 00:21:23.149 --> 00:21:24.931 there was always an answer either in the 00:21:24.992 --> 00:21:27.092 codex or on a blog or somewhere. 00:21:27.152 --> 00:21:28.633 There was always an answer out there. 00:21:29.235 --> 00:21:32.577 It was always easy to just find support 00:21:32.637 --> 00:21:34.399 for whatever I happened to need to be 00:21:34.438 --> 00:21:34.678 doing. 00:21:35.720 --> 00:21:36.524 Yeah, exactly. 00:21:36.564 --> 00:21:38.190 That was definitely one of the most 00:21:38.210 --> 00:21:39.937 helpful things when I was a junior dev 00:21:39.977 --> 00:21:40.560 was just... 00:21:41.915 --> 00:21:42.215 Okay. 00:21:42.715 --> 00:21:44.315 It's either in the codex or stack 00:21:44.396 --> 00:21:44.835 overflow. 00:21:44.856 --> 00:21:47.456 Those were my two, those were clutch. 00:21:48.237 --> 00:21:48.398 Okay. 00:21:48.418 --> 00:21:50.458 They still are clutch to this day, 00:21:50.498 --> 00:21:52.018 but it's just, 00:21:52.178 --> 00:21:54.879 they were so helpful when I was really 00:21:54.959 --> 00:21:56.241 active in dev and you're right. 00:21:56.261 --> 00:21:58.381 Just like there is an answer or there 00:21:58.401 --> 00:22:00.422 are multiple answers and you can do trial 00:22:00.483 --> 00:22:02.003 and error instead of just, 00:22:02.583 --> 00:22:04.424 so this is before the days of AI 00:22:04.705 --> 00:22:07.024 before Google really got good. 00:22:07.106 --> 00:22:07.926 It was just like, 00:22:08.851 --> 00:22:10.672 You could spend like a week doing trial 00:22:10.713 --> 00:22:11.174 and error, 00:22:11.293 --> 00:22:12.915 or you could have these things and you 00:22:12.935 --> 00:22:16.977 could spend a day trial and error. 00:22:16.997 --> 00:22:18.678 And let's be real, 00:22:18.738 --> 00:22:19.899 I'd rather do the day than a week. 00:22:20.341 --> 00:22:24.185 yeah for sure um you mentioned uh that 00:22:24.225 --> 00:22:26.045 you were in your church band i know 00:22:26.065 --> 00:22:30.849 you still uh do musical performance still 00:22:31.109 --> 00:22:33.870 what uh talk about uh we'll do a 00:22:34.011 --> 00:22:37.312 total uh tangent what instruments do you 00:22:37.352 --> 00:22:39.594 play and what do you still play and 00:22:39.794 --> 00:22:42.456 and and how did that sort of uh 00:22:42.657 --> 00:22:45.478 become be a thing i don't meet very 00:22:45.518 --> 00:22:47.219 many adults that are still in sort of 00:22:47.260 --> 00:22:49.321 like marching band type things yeah 00:22:50.581 --> 00:22:55.382 So I play a lot. 00:22:55.402 --> 00:22:57.004 Clarinet is my main instrument. 00:22:57.103 --> 00:22:59.645 I've played that for about thirty years 00:22:59.725 --> 00:23:00.804 now, since grade seven. 00:23:01.784 --> 00:23:04.265 That came about, I was a band nerd, 00:23:04.366 --> 00:23:05.926 band geek, all that kind of stuff. 00:23:05.946 --> 00:23:07.647 Kept that up through high school. 00:23:09.427 --> 00:23:10.507 Moved to Ottawa. 00:23:11.348 --> 00:23:13.448 Played with my friend's church band. 00:23:13.468 --> 00:23:17.090 Did a few local musical theatre pit 00:23:17.169 --> 00:23:17.949 orchestras. 00:23:19.699 --> 00:23:22.681 And then I found a community band and 00:23:22.702 --> 00:23:23.922 they were looking for clarinet players. 00:23:23.983 --> 00:23:25.744 So I did that for two and a 00:23:25.764 --> 00:23:26.405 half years, 00:23:27.284 --> 00:23:31.108 took a pause and then about ten year 00:23:31.227 --> 00:23:31.748 pause. 00:23:31.789 --> 00:23:33.350 And then I went back to a different 00:23:33.370 --> 00:23:34.229 community band. 00:23:35.251 --> 00:23:38.013 And so I joined that in twenty eighteen. 00:23:38.994 --> 00:23:40.354 And then three years ago, 00:23:42.495 --> 00:23:44.418 we lost the percussion player and 00:23:44.558 --> 00:23:45.879 percussion section leader was like, hey, 00:23:45.918 --> 00:23:46.299 Miriam, 00:23:46.599 --> 00:23:49.160 you play timpani on this one piece. 00:23:49.870 --> 00:23:50.950 Do you want to move to percussion? 00:23:51.150 --> 00:23:52.753 I'm like, sure. 00:23:53.793 --> 00:23:57.697 So I've been a percussionist in that band 00:23:57.858 --> 00:24:00.419 for three years, everything but drum kits. 00:24:01.460 --> 00:24:04.524 So that includes like the xylophone, 00:24:04.563 --> 00:24:08.849 the vibraphone, crash cymbals, bongos, 00:24:08.889 --> 00:24:09.488 you name it, 00:24:09.508 --> 00:24:11.110 everything but an actual drum kit. 00:24:12.299 --> 00:24:13.840 And then last year, 00:24:14.601 --> 00:24:16.361 I got asked to join another community band 00:24:16.401 --> 00:24:18.703 on a different day, back on clarinet. 00:24:18.763 --> 00:24:21.824 So it's very interesting. 00:24:22.146 --> 00:24:23.706 Every week, even like Tuesday, 00:24:23.827 --> 00:24:24.546 it's percussion. 00:24:25.046 --> 00:24:26.068 I don't need to worry about breath 00:24:26.088 --> 00:24:26.447 control. 00:24:26.547 --> 00:24:27.768 I just got to worry about rhythm. 00:24:28.629 --> 00:24:31.312 And then Thursday, it's my clarinet one. 00:24:31.391 --> 00:24:33.713 And it's just like, looking at the music, 00:24:33.733 --> 00:24:35.393 it's like, well, 00:24:35.414 --> 00:24:36.235 I'm going to be out of breath by 00:24:36.274 --> 00:24:36.915 the end of the night. 00:24:37.295 --> 00:24:37.616 Yeah. 00:24:38.994 --> 00:24:41.315 Yeah, I mean, I was also, 00:24:43.157 --> 00:24:47.820 I picked up the saxophone in sixth grade 00:24:48.920 --> 00:24:50.941 because, no, fifth grade, 00:24:51.322 --> 00:24:53.404 because I had just, 00:24:54.064 --> 00:24:55.245 I went to Catholic school first through 00:24:55.264 --> 00:24:55.606 fourth. 00:24:56.045 --> 00:24:56.686 And in fifth grade, 00:24:57.006 --> 00:24:58.967 we moved and I went to public school. 00:24:59.007 --> 00:25:01.168 And then they also like on, 00:25:01.188 --> 00:25:01.709 I don't know, 00:25:01.729 --> 00:25:03.271 the first week of school or something had 00:25:03.715 --> 00:25:05.156 the music teacher come in and say, 00:25:05.176 --> 00:25:06.077 this is this instrument, 00:25:06.137 --> 00:25:07.078 and this is this instrument, 00:25:07.118 --> 00:25:07.859 and you can join, 00:25:07.958 --> 00:25:09.139 and you can learn about these things. 00:25:11.628 --> 00:25:12.568 And saxophone, 00:25:12.608 --> 00:25:14.468 like he played all the instruments and 00:25:14.488 --> 00:25:15.629 demoed them for everyone. 00:25:15.870 --> 00:25:19.051 And saxophone sounded cool and looked 00:25:19.091 --> 00:25:19.531 cool. 00:25:20.311 --> 00:25:20.991 So I decided, yeah, 00:25:21.011 --> 00:25:21.732 I want to do that. 00:25:22.411 --> 00:25:27.813 And I did that until seventh grade when 00:25:27.893 --> 00:25:29.053 I moved again. 00:25:29.635 --> 00:25:32.294 And then I was too cool to do 00:25:32.735 --> 00:25:33.396 saxophone. 00:25:34.735 --> 00:25:35.877 And then I was too cool to do 00:25:35.937 --> 00:25:37.476 saxophone for most of high school. 00:25:37.536 --> 00:25:38.977 But in my senior year, 00:25:40.339 --> 00:25:43.262 I decided that, I mean, 00:25:43.322 --> 00:25:44.382 I basically my senior year, 00:25:45.183 --> 00:25:47.145 I was taking as many just like fun, 00:25:47.785 --> 00:25:49.107 whatever classes as I could. 00:25:50.168 --> 00:25:51.889 So band sounded cool. 00:25:52.850 --> 00:25:55.773 So I joined marching band as a saxophone 00:25:55.812 --> 00:25:58.034 player when marching band did both like 00:25:58.054 --> 00:26:00.097 competitions as an actual marching band 00:26:00.117 --> 00:26:02.139 and also like the band at like the 00:26:02.158 --> 00:26:02.739 football games. 00:26:04.556 --> 00:26:05.016 So I did that, 00:26:05.056 --> 00:26:07.237 so I got back into it and did 00:26:07.638 --> 00:26:08.398 marching band, 00:26:08.958 --> 00:26:10.958 which is a whole other like way of 00:26:10.998 --> 00:26:13.399 like even thinking about things like 00:26:13.459 --> 00:26:16.341 skills that I've like kind of even kept 00:26:16.481 --> 00:26:17.802 to this day to a degree. 00:26:18.962 --> 00:26:20.262 But that was also like a lot of 00:26:20.282 --> 00:26:22.003 fun to like be out in with. 00:26:22.302 --> 00:26:22.763 It was, I mean, 00:26:22.983 --> 00:26:24.303 the whole point was like to hang out 00:26:24.323 --> 00:26:27.745 with people and like marching band and the 00:26:28.104 --> 00:26:30.065 football band at the football games was 00:26:30.085 --> 00:26:32.966 like so much about like just hanging out. 00:26:34.020 --> 00:26:35.283 And that was what I, like, 00:26:35.302 --> 00:26:36.185 it wasn't jazz band. 00:26:36.205 --> 00:26:37.026 Jazz band was super, like, 00:26:37.066 --> 00:26:39.292 technical and very, like, specific. 00:26:39.733 --> 00:26:41.737 And it wasn't, like, the pit band for, 00:26:41.757 --> 00:26:41.898 like, 00:26:42.633 --> 00:26:42.833 you know, 00:26:42.873 --> 00:26:44.833 concerts and orchestra type stuff. 00:26:44.873 --> 00:26:47.135 It was more like, yeah, 00:26:47.395 --> 00:26:49.895 we're loud and maybe playing off key and 00:26:49.915 --> 00:26:50.515 that's okay. 00:26:52.075 --> 00:26:52.656 Yeah. 00:26:52.735 --> 00:26:54.436 I wish we'd had marching band in my 00:26:54.476 --> 00:26:54.896 high school. 00:26:54.916 --> 00:26:55.716 That would have been fun. 00:26:55.756 --> 00:26:56.556 But I hear you. 00:26:56.577 --> 00:26:57.536 It's about hanging out. 00:26:57.577 --> 00:27:00.138 Like when I had spare periods, 00:27:00.158 --> 00:27:01.777 when I didn't have a class in grade 00:27:01.797 --> 00:27:02.777 eleven and grade twelve, 00:27:02.858 --> 00:27:06.039 we would just hang out in our band 00:27:06.079 --> 00:27:06.198 room. 00:27:06.238 --> 00:27:09.079 We had a ginormous band room at my 00:27:09.099 --> 00:27:09.619 high school. 00:27:09.859 --> 00:27:11.760 I'm pretty sure it's still the same size 00:27:11.800 --> 00:27:12.040 there. 00:27:12.986 --> 00:27:14.727 And we had a big, big, 00:27:14.787 --> 00:27:16.208 big band program. 00:27:16.270 --> 00:27:19.131 So our band teachers were so chill about 00:27:19.212 --> 00:27:19.292 it. 00:27:19.331 --> 00:27:20.733 They were just like, yeah, 00:27:20.753 --> 00:27:21.633 just come hang out. 00:27:21.674 --> 00:27:22.774 Do your homework in here. 00:27:23.294 --> 00:27:24.295 Let's just hang out. 00:27:24.515 --> 00:27:26.897 And because of that, it's like, 00:27:28.158 --> 00:27:28.559 unfortunately, 00:27:28.639 --> 00:27:31.180 one of the band teachers passed away in 00:27:31.200 --> 00:27:31.940 twenty nineteen. 00:27:31.981 --> 00:27:33.502 But the other one I'm still friends with. 00:27:33.542 --> 00:27:35.303 So I like if I am ever back 00:27:35.323 --> 00:27:37.364 in Calgary, I'm like, hey, Mr. Mack, 00:27:37.485 --> 00:27:38.325 I'm in town. 00:27:38.345 --> 00:27:39.566 You want to go grab a coffee? 00:27:40.006 --> 00:27:40.568 And so. 00:27:41.647 --> 00:27:42.427 That's kind of cool. 00:27:42.447 --> 00:27:44.570 Like over twenty years after graduation, 00:27:44.630 --> 00:27:46.352 I can still keep in touch with that. 00:27:46.412 --> 00:27:47.434 And it's like seriously, 00:27:47.474 --> 00:27:48.695 music got me through high school. 00:27:49.116 --> 00:27:49.376 Yeah. 00:27:49.697 --> 00:27:49.956 Yeah. 00:27:50.878 --> 00:27:51.599 Yeah, for sure. 00:27:52.340 --> 00:27:54.502 The thing that I always find really 00:27:54.542 --> 00:27:55.823 interesting when you say that you're going 00:27:55.863 --> 00:27:58.927 to like band rehearsal or band practice is 00:27:58.966 --> 00:28:00.589 that like I haven't thought about band 00:28:00.649 --> 00:28:01.070 practice 00:28:01.637 --> 00:28:03.477 since high school, which is, like, 00:28:03.839 --> 00:28:04.899 more than twenty years ago. 00:28:04.938 --> 00:28:05.300 So, like, 00:28:05.379 --> 00:28:11.204 how did someone find an outlet for that 00:28:11.244 --> 00:28:12.224 type of performance? 00:28:12.244 --> 00:28:12.985 Like, did you just, like, 00:28:13.024 --> 00:28:14.126 stumble into that? 00:28:14.305 --> 00:28:15.506 I just Googled it. 00:28:15.847 --> 00:28:17.987 I would just, like, 00:28:19.389 --> 00:28:20.469 I missed playing my clarinet, 00:28:20.510 --> 00:28:22.051 because I hadn't been, 00:28:22.071 --> 00:28:23.911 I had taken a break from doing some 00:28:24.872 --> 00:28:25.693 pit orchestras, 00:28:25.734 --> 00:28:28.094 because that I got through said friend's 00:28:28.135 --> 00:28:28.574 band. 00:28:29.936 --> 00:28:30.276 This was... 00:28:31.456 --> 00:28:34.818 It was before my first black belt. 00:28:36.139 --> 00:28:37.800 So anyways, long story short, 00:28:37.959 --> 00:28:40.101 I got asked to play clarinet in a 00:28:40.601 --> 00:28:41.981 production of Beauty and the Beast. 00:28:43.181 --> 00:28:44.661 And they're just like, you're amazing. 00:28:44.841 --> 00:28:46.362 Can you do a few more shows? 00:28:46.382 --> 00:28:48.244 So for the next couple of years, 00:28:48.343 --> 00:28:49.764 I did a couple of shows. 00:28:51.324 --> 00:28:52.426 They didn't need me anymore, 00:28:52.466 --> 00:28:53.146 which is fine. 00:28:53.226 --> 00:28:54.666 And so I had about four years of 00:28:54.726 --> 00:28:55.746 not playing my clarinet. 00:28:55.766 --> 00:28:56.986 And I'm like, I missed this. 00:28:57.127 --> 00:28:57.947 I need to do this. 00:28:58.649 --> 00:28:58.870 wait, 00:28:58.929 --> 00:29:00.551 are there community bands for adults? 00:29:00.690 --> 00:29:01.571 I've heard of this thing. 00:29:02.331 --> 00:29:04.191 And so I just Googled it and I 00:29:04.232 --> 00:29:06.172 found one and I found one not too 00:29:06.213 --> 00:29:07.934 far from me that's like, yeah, 00:29:07.974 --> 00:29:09.374 we're looking for clarinet players. 00:29:10.014 --> 00:29:12.775 And then I joined. 00:29:13.196 --> 00:29:14.816 If you look for it, it will come, 00:29:14.857 --> 00:29:15.377 apparently. 00:29:15.857 --> 00:29:16.537 Exactly. 00:29:16.558 --> 00:29:17.697 You just got to be persistent. 00:29:18.237 --> 00:29:19.418 You got to know the right keywords. 00:29:22.060 --> 00:29:22.280 Well, 00:29:22.360 --> 00:29:24.441 you mentioned something in there offhand 00:29:24.462 --> 00:29:25.962 that I also wanted to talk about, 00:29:26.042 --> 00:29:29.043 which is you are a black belt. 00:29:30.225 --> 00:29:30.624 Yes. 00:29:31.445 --> 00:29:34.046 As you can probably see in my background. 00:29:34.347 --> 00:29:34.726 There we go. 00:29:35.698 --> 00:29:36.300 Back there, 00:29:37.139 --> 00:29:39.001 I have been doing martial arts for 00:29:40.001 --> 00:29:40.661 nineteen years, 00:29:40.681 --> 00:29:42.081 so almost twenty years now. 00:29:42.822 --> 00:29:44.563 So I'm a fourth degree black belt. 00:29:45.404 --> 00:29:47.324 And so I got my first degree black 00:29:47.344 --> 00:29:49.245 belt in twenty ten. 00:29:50.325 --> 00:29:52.527 And the way I got into that was 00:29:53.687 --> 00:29:54.889 I used to work at a grocery store 00:29:54.908 --> 00:29:58.591 in college and made friends and. 00:29:59.610 --> 00:30:01.131 Moved on, started my career, 00:30:01.191 --> 00:30:02.332 and one was like, hey, 00:30:02.392 --> 00:30:03.633 do you want to come to a cardio 00:30:03.654 --> 00:30:04.813 kickboxing class with me? 00:30:04.853 --> 00:30:06.475 I'm like, I would love to, 00:30:06.514 --> 00:30:07.636 but it's too far for me. 00:30:08.516 --> 00:30:10.358 But then I'm like, hey, 00:30:10.437 --> 00:30:11.217 I want to get in shape. 00:30:11.437 --> 00:30:13.520 So I found a cardio kickboxing place, 00:30:13.560 --> 00:30:13.860 like a. 00:30:14.760 --> 00:30:16.360 Fifty minute walk from my place at the 00:30:16.400 --> 00:30:16.661 time. 00:30:17.661 --> 00:30:18.322 I did that. 00:30:18.422 --> 00:30:19.023 It was fun. 00:30:19.102 --> 00:30:21.504 And then I watched the karate class that 00:30:21.524 --> 00:30:24.827 was right before my kickboxing class. 00:30:24.847 --> 00:30:25.167 I'm like. 00:30:26.342 --> 00:30:27.043 That looks cool. 00:30:27.843 --> 00:30:28.684 I want to try that. 00:30:29.004 --> 00:30:31.646 And he's going to hate me for this, 00:30:31.686 --> 00:30:33.546 but he's never going to watch this. 00:30:33.627 --> 00:30:35.227 One of my senses looked, 00:30:35.848 --> 00:30:36.988 at the time when he was younger, 00:30:37.029 --> 00:30:38.909 looked a lot like Jason David Frank from 00:30:39.070 --> 00:30:40.430 Mighty Morphin Power Rangers, 00:30:40.450 --> 00:30:41.650 who played the Green Ranger. 00:30:42.512 --> 00:30:44.132 And I had a crush on that actor 00:30:44.152 --> 00:30:45.052 when I was younger. 00:30:45.812 --> 00:30:49.574 So that probably played a decision. 00:30:49.635 --> 00:30:53.097 So I started in two thousand and seven 00:30:53.216 --> 00:30:53.957 and then I just 00:30:55.715 --> 00:30:58.159 fell in love with it and I had, 00:30:58.220 --> 00:30:58.481 I guess, 00:30:58.541 --> 00:30:59.944 natural skill for it and I just 00:31:01.514 --> 00:31:04.456 kept going and honestly it's one of the 00:31:04.476 --> 00:31:06.338 best decisions I've made because I did a 00:31:06.418 --> 00:31:10.561 talk at WordCamp about seven years ago 00:31:10.660 --> 00:31:13.062 about how being a martial artist and 00:31:13.081 --> 00:31:15.424 especially an instructor can help your 00:31:15.464 --> 00:31:17.304 tech career because there's so much 00:31:17.366 --> 00:31:20.868 correlation with the confidence and it's 00:31:20.908 --> 00:31:24.831 just like katas it's in a specific order 00:31:24.930 --> 00:31:27.552 it's an orchestrated fight against an 00:31:27.592 --> 00:31:28.694 imaginary opponent 00:31:29.912 --> 00:31:31.312 You might not think that that relates to 00:31:31.372 --> 00:31:31.674 tech, 00:31:31.714 --> 00:31:33.274 but in a way it does because of 00:31:33.313 --> 00:31:35.814 the logic in tech that think of going 00:31:35.854 --> 00:31:37.794 back to procedural programming back in the 00:31:37.814 --> 00:31:38.094 day. 00:31:38.735 --> 00:31:40.476 You need to do it in a certain 00:31:40.636 --> 00:31:42.516 order or else things are going to go 00:31:42.577 --> 00:31:43.236 belly up. 00:31:44.137 --> 00:31:45.937 And if you don't do things properly in 00:31:45.957 --> 00:31:48.899 karate, it's injuries, 00:31:48.938 --> 00:31:49.938 but still it goes belly up. 00:31:53.270 --> 00:31:56.411 I think that's a fascinating story and 00:31:56.431 --> 00:31:58.474 that's a really interesting correlation 00:31:59.655 --> 00:32:04.138 between karate and tech and sort of just 00:32:04.358 --> 00:32:07.080 the programmatic thinking, I guess, 00:32:07.120 --> 00:32:09.502 like the sort of developer brain. 00:32:10.161 --> 00:32:11.602 I think that makes a lot of sense. 00:32:11.622 --> 00:32:13.764 And I don't think you're the first person 00:32:13.784 --> 00:32:15.666 to have made that connection specifically 00:32:15.686 --> 00:32:16.085 with katas. 00:32:16.306 --> 00:32:18.007 I've read that before, 00:32:18.047 --> 00:32:20.709 just like katas for like development, 00:32:21.337 --> 00:32:22.937 you know, sort of a practice. 00:32:25.859 --> 00:32:28.280 I started doing Tai Chi over the summer 00:32:28.439 --> 00:32:32.302 last year and I've been doing that once 00:32:32.322 --> 00:32:36.444 a week and I've really been enjoying that 00:32:37.623 --> 00:32:43.046 in part because there's not a lot of 00:32:43.107 --> 00:32:43.526 times 00:32:44.674 --> 00:32:45.215 Well, 00:32:45.235 --> 00:32:47.258 I started doing aerials like a year ago 00:32:47.359 --> 00:32:50.745 and like aerial arts are like on hammocks 00:32:50.765 --> 00:32:52.268 and silks and hoops and stuff. 00:32:52.289 --> 00:32:53.291 And you've seen videos of this. 00:32:55.834 --> 00:32:57.756 And that puts you, 00:32:57.776 --> 00:32:59.257 it forces you to think about like what 00:32:59.277 --> 00:33:00.399 your body is actually doing, 00:33:01.620 --> 00:33:02.880 which is not a thing that my brain 00:33:03.061 --> 00:33:03.681 often does. 00:33:04.581 --> 00:33:06.204 But Tai Chi really gets you into that 00:33:06.244 --> 00:33:06.563 space. 00:33:06.583 --> 00:33:07.524 Like you have to like, 00:33:07.584 --> 00:33:08.866 because it's the whole point and you're 00:33:08.886 --> 00:33:11.088 going very slowly and you're like trying 00:33:11.108 --> 00:33:12.849 to make your movements fluid and also 00:33:12.869 --> 00:33:13.870 you're trying to pay attention to what the 00:33:13.889 --> 00:33:15.091 instructor is doing because nobody's 00:33:15.110 --> 00:33:16.052 actually telling you what you're supposed 00:33:16.072 --> 00:33:16.411 to be doing. 00:33:17.793 --> 00:33:22.597 And I imagine that it's a similar head 00:33:22.617 --> 00:33:24.619 space when you're doing karate as well. 00:33:25.074 --> 00:33:28.716 It is because not so much when you're 00:33:28.835 --> 00:33:30.097 like a lower belt because you're just 00:33:30.397 --> 00:33:32.158 learning it and you're just trying to make 00:33:32.177 --> 00:33:32.858 your body do it. 00:33:32.898 --> 00:33:34.918 But at my level, 00:33:35.418 --> 00:33:37.800 it's now a point like listening to your 00:33:37.840 --> 00:33:41.761 body and being like adapting, 00:33:41.821 --> 00:33:43.121 like looking around. 00:33:43.141 --> 00:33:44.421 It's like, oh, no, 00:33:44.462 --> 00:33:46.283 there's like thirty five people in class 00:33:46.342 --> 00:33:47.823 and I barely have enough room. 00:33:48.164 --> 00:33:50.044 I need to just adjust how I do 00:33:50.104 --> 00:33:52.185 it or else I'm going to get hit 00:33:52.225 --> 00:33:53.106 by somebody who. 00:33:54.322 --> 00:33:57.283 may not have the same awareness of their 00:33:57.904 --> 00:33:59.323 personal space as you do. 00:34:00.304 --> 00:34:00.844 Which is fine. 00:34:00.885 --> 00:34:04.687 Everybody does it basically for 00:34:04.706 --> 00:34:05.607 themselves, really. 00:34:06.026 --> 00:34:07.828 And they train how they train. 00:34:07.848 --> 00:34:09.508 But it's just one of those, like, 00:34:10.488 --> 00:34:12.129 you have to know how your body feels 00:34:12.169 --> 00:34:13.430 and you don't want to get injured. 00:34:13.551 --> 00:34:16.472 So especially now that I'm out of my 00:34:16.492 --> 00:34:17.212 twenties anymore, 00:34:17.933 --> 00:34:20.093 it's kind of like you got to listen 00:34:20.174 --> 00:34:22.655 to what your body does and 00:34:24.606 --> 00:34:26.587 it has the added layer being an advanced 00:34:26.607 --> 00:34:28.006 black belt is that you have to teach 00:34:28.066 --> 00:34:29.687 it too. 00:34:29.767 --> 00:34:35.729 So I teach basically preteens once a week. 00:34:36.551 --> 00:34:38.470 And so it's very interesting. 00:34:38.492 --> 00:34:40.331 Like sometimes we have like seven, 00:34:40.371 --> 00:34:41.773 eight year olds and you got to, 00:34:43.789 --> 00:34:45.330 also think on your feeds like, okay, 00:34:45.909 --> 00:34:46.909 how old is this person? 00:34:46.989 --> 00:34:47.910 How do they learn? 00:34:48.470 --> 00:34:50.512 Do they pick up on things fast? 00:34:50.651 --> 00:34:51.972 Are they very shy? 00:34:52.151 --> 00:34:54.973 Are they kind of bombastic and everything? 00:34:55.613 --> 00:34:57.174 So it's kind of like you have to 00:34:58.655 --> 00:35:00.034 know how to adapt. 00:35:01.575 --> 00:35:04.556 And again, bringing it back to tech, 00:35:04.716 --> 00:35:07.477 I see that as kind of debugging. 00:35:08.619 --> 00:35:08.839 So 00:35:09.973 --> 00:35:11.332 you're debugging code, like, 00:35:11.613 --> 00:35:14.635 that's what I'm going to be doing once 00:35:15.034 --> 00:35:17.014 we finish chatting is I'm going back to 00:35:17.135 --> 00:35:18.196 debugging some code. 00:35:18.916 --> 00:35:20.156 But with people, 00:35:20.396 --> 00:35:23.456 it's not so much debugging them. 00:35:23.677 --> 00:35:26.318 It's kind of like finding the best 00:35:26.418 --> 00:35:28.238 solution for them. 00:35:28.359 --> 00:35:30.439 So some people like repetition and doing 00:35:30.479 --> 00:35:31.800 it over and over and over again. 00:35:32.828 --> 00:35:34.370 And doing like a full cat. 00:35:34.409 --> 00:35:36.513 Some people like you to only do four 00:35:36.552 --> 00:35:36.934 moves. 00:35:37.053 --> 00:35:38.376 And then when they feel comfortable, 00:35:38.396 --> 00:35:39.016 you move on. 00:35:39.117 --> 00:35:41.960 So it's not like one size fits all, 00:35:42.001 --> 00:35:43.203 which I kind of like. 00:35:44.324 --> 00:35:45.606 I like that it's not one size fits 00:35:45.626 --> 00:35:46.087 all. 00:35:46.206 --> 00:35:47.309 I hate one size fits all. 00:35:48.138 --> 00:35:50.539 Yeah, yeah. 00:35:50.919 --> 00:35:51.861 Yeah, 00:35:51.921 --> 00:35:54.323 one of my first real jobs out of 00:35:54.923 --> 00:35:57.485 college was working in tech support. 00:35:58.526 --> 00:36:02.749 And tech support sucks. 00:36:03.869 --> 00:36:05.269 And I have a lot of empathy for 00:36:05.329 --> 00:36:06.992 folks that do it. 00:36:08.633 --> 00:36:11.274 But one of the things that I learned 00:36:11.354 --> 00:36:14.276 doing tech support was a similar sort of 00:36:14.477 --> 00:36:15.918 lesson, right, where, like, 00:36:16.934 --> 00:36:17.115 I, 00:36:17.254 --> 00:36:18.695 you need to have a lot of empathy 00:36:18.776 --> 00:36:20.537 and you need to have really good listening 00:36:20.577 --> 00:36:24.139 skills, um, because, and, 00:36:24.238 --> 00:36:27.361 and this like led into how I approached 00:36:27.601 --> 00:36:30.041 working at WordPress agencies and how I 00:36:30.082 --> 00:36:32.584 approached like product development and 00:36:32.684 --> 00:36:34.244 design and building things. 00:36:35.285 --> 00:36:36.084 The things that, 00:36:36.325 --> 00:36:39.466 that people are saying with their words is 00:36:39.526 --> 00:36:42.008 not always the things that they want or 00:36:42.108 --> 00:36:42.408 need. 00:36:43.061 --> 00:36:43.461 They're just, 00:36:43.722 --> 00:36:45.642 they're responding to the thing that they 00:36:45.682 --> 00:36:46.564 see in front of them. 00:36:46.803 --> 00:36:48.586 And they, you know, 00:36:48.706 --> 00:36:50.506 even sometimes they think they want a 00:36:50.566 --> 00:36:53.048 thing or they think they want a particular 00:36:53.148 --> 00:36:54.490 outcome, 00:36:54.530 --> 00:36:55.191 but actually 00:36:55.591 --> 00:36:57.273 That's just like the surface level of 00:36:57.312 --> 00:36:58.673 something else that's happening. 00:37:00.113 --> 00:37:01.974 And the trick, 00:37:02.374 --> 00:37:05.856 if you're good at doing the support stuff, 00:37:06.316 --> 00:37:08.595 the trick is being able to listen for 00:37:08.615 --> 00:37:10.457 those clues that tell you, 00:37:10.497 --> 00:37:11.577 that inform like, oh, 00:37:11.657 --> 00:37:12.878 actually there's something else going on. 00:37:14.229 --> 00:37:15.030 Yeah, exactly. 00:37:15.070 --> 00:37:15.851 That's why, like, 00:37:16.550 --> 00:37:19.552 I have mad respect for the people at 00:37:19.591 --> 00:37:21.631 our company who are in technical support. 00:37:22.573 --> 00:37:24.613 And especially for those who sometimes 00:37:24.653 --> 00:37:26.093 just have to deal with the chats, 00:37:26.294 --> 00:37:30.015 just like mad respect for what they have 00:37:30.055 --> 00:37:33.276 to do and just figure it out and 00:37:33.296 --> 00:37:36.256 be like, can we help you with this? 00:37:36.296 --> 00:37:38.718 Or do we need to escalate it up 00:37:38.758 --> 00:37:39.198 the chain? 00:37:39.398 --> 00:37:39.918 Mm-hmm . 00:37:41.082 --> 00:37:42.202 What sorts of things, 00:37:42.963 --> 00:37:46.325 because what you do at Pantheon is a 00:37:46.405 --> 00:37:50.028 little bit of support adjacent. 00:37:52.331 --> 00:37:54.372 What sorts of things characterize the work 00:37:54.733 --> 00:37:56.173 that you do here? 00:37:58.206 --> 00:37:58.986 It's a lot now. 00:37:59.166 --> 00:38:01.749 So if we go back to my role 00:38:01.789 --> 00:38:04.149 purely as a solutions architect is 00:38:04.189 --> 00:38:07.211 basically I look to help improve 00:38:07.291 --> 00:38:07.992 performance. 00:38:08.133 --> 00:38:11.334 And so what I look at is since 00:38:11.414 --> 00:38:13.836 I'm a subject matter expert at WordPress, 00:38:14.157 --> 00:38:15.318 that's what I specialize in. 00:38:16.738 --> 00:38:17.840 I look at the code base. 00:38:18.300 --> 00:38:22.142 I look for anti-patterns in custom plugins 00:38:22.182 --> 00:38:23.702 and their themes and everything. 00:38:24.483 --> 00:38:26.363 I dig into the database. 00:38:26.423 --> 00:38:27.965 I look for database indexes, 00:38:28.024 --> 00:38:30.945 fragmented tables, loaded tables, 00:38:30.986 --> 00:38:33.628 like orphan metadata and everything. 00:38:33.687 --> 00:38:35.389 How can we improve their database? 00:38:36.269 --> 00:38:37.809 I look at the file system. 00:38:37.930 --> 00:38:39.910 I'm like, 00:38:40.111 --> 00:38:42.532 do they have way too many files going 00:38:42.653 --> 00:38:42.812 on? 00:38:42.912 --> 00:38:43.273 Are they... 00:38:44.657 --> 00:38:45.178 For some reason, 00:38:45.198 --> 00:38:47.398 have they added twenty five image sizes 00:38:47.479 --> 00:38:50.582 and that is blowing up their uploads 00:38:50.622 --> 00:38:52.463 directory and then they're going to have 00:38:52.564 --> 00:38:56.247 trouble with their backups and everything. 00:38:56.407 --> 00:38:57.928 So it's like I take my knowledge of 00:38:57.988 --> 00:39:01.191 WordPress and my knowledge of the platform 00:39:01.992 --> 00:39:04.794 and I kind of marry them together and 00:39:04.814 --> 00:39:05.635 then I find out, OK, 00:39:07.077 --> 00:39:09.718 I think I mentioned this before to you 00:39:09.738 --> 00:39:10.879 in the past, but I'm like, 00:39:11.340 --> 00:39:13.021 it's like almost like a website therapist 00:39:13.041 --> 00:39:15.182 and a website doctor at the same time. 00:39:15.923 --> 00:39:18.003 Therapist in that I listen to what the 00:39:18.023 --> 00:39:20.845 customer is having trouble with or the 00:39:20.885 --> 00:39:24.128 developer and a doctor in providing like 00:39:24.689 --> 00:39:26.510 the prescription, the solution to it. 00:39:28.394 --> 00:39:30.133 And now outside of that, 00:39:30.173 --> 00:39:31.715 I've started to get involved with a lot 00:39:31.814 --> 00:39:33.575 of, I get to work with marketing more. 00:39:33.615 --> 00:39:36.436 I get to work with the engineering team 00:39:36.476 --> 00:39:36.796 more. 00:39:36.836 --> 00:39:39.896 So I'm working on my department, 00:39:40.776 --> 00:39:43.517 all the cool stuff that's on a roadmap. 00:39:43.577 --> 00:39:45.318 I get to kind of see it in 00:39:45.378 --> 00:39:47.119 progress and I share it back. 00:39:47.318 --> 00:39:49.800 And then I help guide and being like, 00:39:50.399 --> 00:39:50.959 actually, no, 00:39:50.979 --> 00:39:52.680 have you considered this from the customer 00:39:52.720 --> 00:39:53.419 perspective? 00:39:53.499 --> 00:39:55.140 So it's almost like, because... 00:39:56.599 --> 00:39:58.140 I can be the voice of the customer 00:39:58.200 --> 00:40:00.381 because I'm in the field. 00:40:01.562 --> 00:40:04.504 I can kind of like guide and offer 00:40:04.544 --> 00:40:07.928 suggestions to our non-customer facing 00:40:07.968 --> 00:40:11.169 teams and be like, actually, no, I mean, 00:40:11.189 --> 00:40:13.452 that's a great idea that you have, 00:40:13.532 --> 00:40:16.374 but that's not going to jive with the 00:40:16.394 --> 00:40:16.894 customers. 00:40:18.262 --> 00:40:19.285 Yeah. 00:40:19.365 --> 00:40:19.604 Yeah. 00:40:20.086 --> 00:40:22.468 It's a lot of that side of things 00:40:22.508 --> 00:40:23.530 is definitely like, 00:40:23.689 --> 00:40:24.952 and we are on a lot of the 00:40:24.972 --> 00:40:28.316 same calls because that side of things is 00:40:28.997 --> 00:40:31.700 very similar to developer relations. 00:40:33.202 --> 00:40:35.707 The inside joke is like, 00:40:37.068 --> 00:40:37.689 For a long time, 00:40:37.729 --> 00:40:40.151 there's been this idea of shadow 00:40:40.211 --> 00:40:40.731 engineering, 00:40:40.751 --> 00:40:41.974 where there's engineering work that's 00:40:42.014 --> 00:40:43.215 happening outside of the actual 00:40:43.235 --> 00:40:43.976 engineering team. 00:40:45.256 --> 00:40:45.597 Miriam, 00:40:45.678 --> 00:40:47.660 I always like to tease you and say 00:40:47.680 --> 00:40:49.001 that you're shadow DevRel because you're 00:40:49.021 --> 00:40:51.363 doing the work of DevRel outside of the 00:40:51.403 --> 00:40:53.347 developer relations role. 00:40:54.106 --> 00:40:55.108 But I mean, I was too. 00:40:55.247 --> 00:40:57.811 I was doing that same stuff when I 00:40:57.831 --> 00:40:58.992 was in engineering. 00:40:59.392 --> 00:41:00.793 I was engaging in the community, 00:41:00.832 --> 00:41:01.954 being in community Slack. 00:41:02.073 --> 00:41:04.957 And because for a lot of times, 00:41:05.017 --> 00:41:06.979 particularly at a product company or maybe 00:41:07.019 --> 00:41:08.559 a hosting company, 00:41:08.820 --> 00:41:11.021 the people that are building the stuff 00:41:11.162 --> 00:41:14.405 that WordPress users are using... 00:41:15.680 --> 00:41:18.383 Don't necessarily use the wordpress 00:41:18.403 --> 00:41:20.323 themselves or don't use the drupal 00:41:20.343 --> 00:41:22.546 themselves they're they're using the 00:41:22.586 --> 00:41:25.307 platform they're deep in kubernetes and 00:41:25.327 --> 00:41:28.028 they're deep in file systems and like all 00:41:28.048 --> 00:41:32.332 these different things and like sometimes 00:41:32.472 --> 00:41:33.352 a lot of times. 00:41:34.581 --> 00:41:37.202 What what goes into the Kubernetes cluster 00:41:37.582 --> 00:41:40.345 can and should be informed by you know 00:41:40.724 --> 00:41:44.526 how like what best works for a you 00:41:44.548 --> 00:41:46.508 know commodity WordPress site. 00:41:46.528 --> 00:41:47.809 Exactly yeah. 00:41:52.305 --> 00:41:54.568 What sorts of, you mentioned, 00:41:55.128 --> 00:41:57.452 and this is just, again, my own curiosity, 00:41:58.673 --> 00:42:03.019 what sorts of anti-patterns do you look 00:42:03.059 --> 00:42:04.640 for specifically when you, like, 00:42:04.660 --> 00:42:06.584 if you're just opening up a code base, 00:42:06.624 --> 00:42:08.425 what's sort of the first thing that you 00:42:08.445 --> 00:42:08.966 try to look for? 00:42:10.858 --> 00:42:12.640 Um, sometimes it's just really the basics. 00:42:12.780 --> 00:42:13.820 It's just like, 00:42:14.340 --> 00:42:17.584 are they doing some really crazy nested 00:42:17.664 --> 00:42:18.003 loop? 00:42:18.184 --> 00:42:22.166 Are they trying to connect to an external 00:42:22.347 --> 00:42:24.428 service that is going to do it? 00:42:24.468 --> 00:42:26.890 Are they trying to do repeated curls to 00:42:26.950 --> 00:42:30.753 something that is going to hammer or SQL 00:42:30.794 --> 00:42:31.414 injection? 00:42:31.494 --> 00:42:36.037 I always look for and just best practices. 00:42:36.117 --> 00:42:38.140 Like sometimes I'm just like, 00:42:39.606 --> 00:42:41.628 If it's something that's like really, 00:42:41.668 --> 00:42:43.608 like you can't really, it's not obvious. 00:42:43.689 --> 00:42:44.890 I sometimes go in and I'm like, 00:42:45.390 --> 00:42:47.992 let's look at WordPress coding standards. 00:42:48.073 --> 00:42:51.215 So I go against the Pantheon ones we 00:42:51.254 --> 00:42:51.575 have. 00:42:51.655 --> 00:42:53.916 I go against some of the best known 00:42:54.037 --> 00:42:54.778 agency ones. 00:42:54.818 --> 00:42:58.521 I think Field and TenUp have one that 00:42:58.541 --> 00:42:59.180 they use. 00:42:59.300 --> 00:43:01.903 And so I just look for that. 00:43:02.003 --> 00:43:02.883 And then I'm just like, 00:43:02.903 --> 00:43:04.164 what would I do if I was a 00:43:04.204 --> 00:43:05.506 developer here? 00:43:06.046 --> 00:43:06.767 So I try and... 00:43:08.226 --> 00:43:10.367 turn back on my developer brain and just 00:43:10.486 --> 00:43:12.528 look at stuff from that. 00:43:12.608 --> 00:43:13.267 And I'm like, 00:43:13.747 --> 00:43:15.369 are they using their plugins, right? 00:43:15.428 --> 00:43:19.990 Like ACF, for example, great plugin, 00:43:20.030 --> 00:43:23.370 but the amount of bloat it could cause, 00:43:23.410 --> 00:43:24.651 and especially like, 00:43:25.251 --> 00:43:26.693 if you have just one field group and 00:43:26.713 --> 00:43:28.293 you have a ton of fields in it, 00:43:28.472 --> 00:43:30.394 and then you try and couple that with 00:43:30.434 --> 00:43:34.015 GraphQL and you try and go decoupled, 00:43:34.035 --> 00:43:34.856 you're not gonna be in for a good 00:43:34.896 --> 00:43:35.155 time. 00:43:36.311 --> 00:43:39.673 So that's kind of like looking for ways 00:43:39.693 --> 00:43:42.454 without having to completely redo a 00:43:42.494 --> 00:43:43.075 website. 00:43:43.175 --> 00:43:44.995 I look for things that can just be 00:43:45.635 --> 00:43:48.698 modulized and broken up a bit more just 00:43:48.718 --> 00:43:51.519 to help with the performance so that 00:43:51.539 --> 00:43:53.979 you're not slamming it and that you're not 00:43:53.999 --> 00:43:55.541 going to have like a five second load 00:43:55.561 --> 00:43:56.901 when you load into the dashboard. 00:43:58.251 --> 00:44:00.593 Did you ever do sort of site audit, 00:44:00.613 --> 00:44:02.834 code audit sort of work when you were 00:44:02.914 --> 00:44:04.555 doing agency stuff or did you? 00:44:04.595 --> 00:44:05.537 I did actually. 00:44:05.697 --> 00:44:09.619 So when I worked for Canopy for a 00:44:09.678 --> 00:44:12.061 while, when I left Canopy, 00:44:12.081 --> 00:44:13.061 I was on the build side. 00:44:13.101 --> 00:44:15.863 So I mainly dealt with new builds for 00:44:15.983 --> 00:44:18.365 my last year and a half there. 00:44:19.332 --> 00:44:21.035 But my first couple of years, 00:44:22.756 --> 00:44:24.838 I did both support and new builds. 00:44:24.939 --> 00:44:27.662 So when we had a new client come 00:44:27.742 --> 00:44:29.423 in, we would do a site audit. 00:44:29.463 --> 00:44:31.004 So again, we would check their plugins. 00:44:31.084 --> 00:44:32.206 Is everything up to date? 00:44:32.807 --> 00:44:34.729 Are they following code standards? 00:44:34.789 --> 00:44:37.832 Are there any security things like 00:44:39.273 --> 00:44:41.115 SonarCube, I think is what we used. 00:44:41.898 --> 00:44:42.497 and everything. 00:44:42.537 --> 00:44:45.039 So we did full site audits before we 00:44:45.139 --> 00:44:48.140 even started addressing any of the 00:44:48.160 --> 00:44:48.999 client's needs. 00:44:49.039 --> 00:44:51.260 And we would have like present depths and 00:44:51.280 --> 00:44:51.820 everything. 00:44:51.861 --> 00:44:54.921 So similar to what we do on the 00:44:54.941 --> 00:44:56.001 migration side here, 00:44:56.122 --> 00:44:58.463 if people pay for a premium migration, 00:44:58.903 --> 00:45:01.064 I get involved as a solutions architect, 00:45:01.744 --> 00:45:04.044 and then we get access to their code 00:45:04.684 --> 00:45:06.965 at their previous provider. 00:45:07.106 --> 00:45:10.066 And then I do something very similar, 00:45:10.126 --> 00:45:10.867 just being like, 00:45:12.128 --> 00:45:12.687 Is this good? 00:45:12.727 --> 00:45:14.789 But then this comes from like, no, 00:45:15.148 --> 00:45:18.930 this won't fly on Pantheon because we have 00:45:18.970 --> 00:45:20.691 certain things that just don't work with 00:45:20.791 --> 00:45:21.593 the platform. 00:45:22.593 --> 00:45:24.874 Not with any provider. 00:45:24.994 --> 00:45:25.213 Yeah. 00:45:26.354 --> 00:45:26.655 Yeah. 00:45:27.735 --> 00:45:32.957 Have you... Probably, I shouldn't ask, 00:45:32.977 --> 00:45:34.878 but like I've, in my... 00:45:36.300 --> 00:45:40.043 time of doing audits of code and in 00:45:40.082 --> 00:45:42.204 particular inheriting code from a 00:45:42.265 --> 00:45:45.927 different team for either building on or 00:45:45.966 --> 00:45:46.526 for whatever, 00:45:48.028 --> 00:45:51.309 there have been times where I have just 00:45:51.349 --> 00:45:51.751 been like, 00:45:53.010 --> 00:45:54.412 why did you build it like this? 00:45:55.992 --> 00:46:01.077 And sometimes it's on occasion been from 00:46:01.776 --> 00:46:07.039 teams or agencies that I would have 00:46:07.079 --> 00:46:08.361 expected better from. 00:46:10.403 --> 00:46:11.503 We don't need to name names, 00:46:11.543 --> 00:46:13.724 but have you also had a similar experience 00:46:13.905 --> 00:46:15.385 where you got some code, 00:46:15.425 --> 00:46:17.787 it was from some agency that you recognize 00:46:17.847 --> 00:46:19.889 and you think that you had an opinion 00:46:19.928 --> 00:46:21.530 in your mind about them and you see 00:46:21.550 --> 00:46:22.950 this code is like, wait a second, 00:46:23.211 --> 00:46:23.870 what is going on? 00:46:23.990 --> 00:46:24.711 Why is it like this? 00:46:25.532 --> 00:46:25.834 Yes, 00:46:25.954 --> 00:46:28.818 I've had it from agencies I recognize and 00:46:28.957 --> 00:46:31.381 agencies I don't recognize. 00:46:31.742 --> 00:46:37.249 I had one customer last year who we 00:46:37.309 --> 00:46:40.994 brought on who had a legacy multi-site 00:46:41.015 --> 00:46:41.294 experience. 00:46:41.776 --> 00:46:44.017 That was built before. 00:46:44.037 --> 00:46:50.323 So that was before old school, old school, 00:46:50.465 --> 00:46:51.285 old school, 00:46:51.325 --> 00:46:54.749 where we had to refactor the database 00:46:55.329 --> 00:46:58.012 because they were still using WP 00:46:58.072 --> 00:47:00.414 underscore one underscore for their main 00:47:00.434 --> 00:47:00.854 blog, 00:47:00.894 --> 00:47:03.137 rather than putting it in the main table. 00:47:03.216 --> 00:47:06.099 So, and then some of the code. 00:47:08.325 --> 00:47:09.787 Some of the UIT I had to do 00:47:09.867 --> 00:47:10.747 on that site, 00:47:12.227 --> 00:47:13.329 it kept me up at night. 00:47:15.791 --> 00:47:17.472 Well, thank you for coming on Miriam. 00:47:18.311 --> 00:47:20.492 Where can people find you on the internet 00:47:20.553 --> 00:47:22.894 if they were looking for you? 00:47:23.235 --> 00:47:25.816 I am one of those interesting folks who 00:47:25.997 --> 00:47:28.298 really does not have much social media. 00:47:29.258 --> 00:47:31.140 So you could find me on LinkedIn. 00:47:32.211 --> 00:47:35.693 and miriam goldman and also 00:47:35.832 --> 00:47:39.834 miriamgoldman.ca my website that i haven't 00:47:39.934 --> 00:47:42.193 updated much but i will start doing it 00:47:42.233 --> 00:47:46.215 more and that's really it i tend to 00:47:46.235 --> 00:47:48.695 keep private because i used to be on 00:47:48.715 --> 00:47:53.796 facebook instagram but not anymore yeah um 00:47:53.816 --> 00:47:55.457 well again thank you for coming on uh 00:47:55.477 --> 00:47:57.398 thank everyone uh who might be watching or 00:47:57.437 --> 00:47:59.818 listening to this in the future and uh 00:47:59.878 --> 00:48:00.939 yeah we'll see you on the internet 00:48:01.814 --> 00:48:02.158 Thanks, Chris.