WEBVTT

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Hey, welcome back to Community & Code.

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I'm Chris Reynolds,

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and my guest this week is Jonathan Wald.

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If you've been in WordPress for any length

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of time, you might have run into him.

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He co-founded Guildenberg,

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he spent time at Automatic,

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he's over at Convesio now,

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and he co-hosts a podcast called

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Crossword.

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And I want to be absolutely clear,

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he has an extremely unfair radio voice,

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one that puts me to shame,

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and I'm super jealous.

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We talk about his years in the WordPress

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community, the .org forums,

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whether WordPress is still the operating

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system of the web,

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Jonathan's been pulling on that thread for

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a long time,

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and he's got a take on it that

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has almost nothing to do with the

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software.

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But the fun part of the conversation is

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our hard left into homeschooling.

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Both of us have homeschooled,

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him as a kid, me as a parent,

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and Jonathan reckons that never being

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sorted into a social hierarchy is the

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reason it doesn't occur to him to ask

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permission for things.

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He just does them.

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Which is something that I've definitely

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seen from homeschooled kids,

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a level of confidence that at times can

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border on audacity.

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Sometimes that gets him into trouble,

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but mostly it doesn't.

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There's also encyclopedias,

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philosophy class,

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and some very strong opinions about the

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Sun and Phoenix.

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Let's get into it.

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Welcome to Community & Code,

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the podcast where we talk to the human

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beings behind the commits.

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And my human being that I'm with today

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is Jonathan Wald, a longtime WordPresser.

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You co-founded a consultancy a few years

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ago called Guildenberg,

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doing that in WooCommerce and stuff like

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that.

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Yeah, welcome to the show, Jonathan,

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and tell us about yourself.

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Chris, it's a pleasure to be here.

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Tell us about yourself.

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That's a pretty open-ended invitation.

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I'm still having fun in this ecosystem

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after all these years.

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WordCamp US is coming up in just a

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couple weeks,

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and I'm excited to get a suntan and

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bring in some heat.

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It'll be a good time.

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I think for me,

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technology has been a part of my world

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since i was a teenager growing up like

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the internet brought me community and an

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opportunity to connect with folks around

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the world and i think it just has

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just become this very natural segue

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wordpress came into the radar for me about

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twenty years ago and what initially drew

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me into it was the experience that i

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had with the community at the time which

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was mostly on the dot org forums right

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we weren't doing word camps or any of

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that just yet

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But I remember I came for the tech

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and it was helping me solve a problem

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I had at the time,

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which was getting a blog to be integrated

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into the types of sites that I was

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working on.

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But it was the helpfulness of the folks

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who helped me figure out how to accomplish

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what I was trying to do.

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Oh, this is cool.

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This is actually something I'd like to

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contribute back to.

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And the rest became quite the history.

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Yeah, that's actually,

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so it's funny that you mentioned that.

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If you go back to the very first

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post on this site,

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I talk about sort of the origin of

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how I kind of came up with the

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idea for the show.

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And it was sort of two things.

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One of them was just PressConf,

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because PressConf

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Like the conversations at PressConf were

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very much the sort of conversations that I

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wanted to be having.

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But before PressConf,

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like a few weeks before that,

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I had gone to my first DrupalCon.

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And at DrupalCon,

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there was a sticker that was in a

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big rack of stickers that were free that

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said, come for the code,

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stay for the community.

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That's cool.

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Yeah.

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And it was like...

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I'd never heard it articulated that way.

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That particular phrasing, I think,

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is a thing in the Drupal community,

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but the sentiment was something that I

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very much identified with.

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I thought it was really interesting that I

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could go to a Drupal conference and find

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the thing that I have felt for twenty

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years in the WordPress community reflected

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in a sticker that the Drupal community,

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and rallied around this idea that the

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Drupal community already held internal on

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themselves,

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and then

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And so putting the two things together is,

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like,

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I want to have conversations where we talk

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about this.

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Like, this thing.

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Whatever this is.

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Like, we're here.

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We do the code.

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But, like, it's the community.

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It's the people.

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That's the thing that really keeps us in

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this ecosystem.

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It's interesting to me to see the impact

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that the events have had.

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I was a late arrival to the event

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scene.

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I went to WordCamp Long Beach.

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It was my first WordCamp,

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and I was also a speaker.

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So I'd done some meetups.

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I had some event experience,

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but working asynchronously,

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the internet allows you to work with

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people all over the world.

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I'd met a few folks from the WordPress

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space prior to the WordCamp experience,

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but it was pretty limited.

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And then after experiencing that and then

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starting to go to some of the bigger

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ones,

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WordCamp Europe in Vienna was my first big

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one.

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And it left quite the impression on me

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and continues to do so.

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Even as my reasons for going will shift

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or the focus will change,

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there's still something precious to me

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about,

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it's always great to see folks that you

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already know, right?

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That's a highlight.

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There's something though about meeting

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folks that you just would never have had

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context to meet otherwise except for this

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community space that you share together

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and then showing up around the world.

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I know it's not unique to WordPress as

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you've experienced in the case with Drupal

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there and I'm sure other open source

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communities,

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but it's something that it's been a real

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highlight for me over the course of my

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years in the space.

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Yeah, well, it's funny that you mentioned,

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because I was actually going to say that

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I recently learned that WordCamp Long

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Beach was the first time that you spoke.

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And now I've learned that WordCamp Long

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Beach was your first actual WordCamp.

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I was at that WordCamp.

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I also was speaking at that WordCamp.

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And I went to your talk,

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and I remember your talk.

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Oh, wow.

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because you were talking about i believe

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uh you're talking about uh wordpress as uh

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the c the operating system of the web

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yeah yeah yeah um and i remember like

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that was sort of a topic at the

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time that was getting a little bit of

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like like conversation around it like it's

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kind of this abstract idea but i remember

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um a friend of mine who i worked

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with at uh web dev rami abraham

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uh, have made a, a YouTube video,

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which doesn't exist anymore.

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And I'm so sad because he had done

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a couple YouTube videos that were showing

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like the future of WordPress and it had

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like all this after effects.

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And it was like a, uh,

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like a VR H huds up display of

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like the WordPress admin and stuff.

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And I was like,

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And hand controls to move things around.

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And I was like, yeah, that's silly,

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but also it's fun to see that sci-fi

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applied to this thing that we're building

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and think about, oh,

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maybe the thing that we're building could

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do that thing.

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Maybe the thing that we're building could

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power, I don't know,

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a rocket ship or something.

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I don't know.

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um probably has more memory than the um

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or uses more memory than than the rocket

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the apollo a yeah right um but like

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sort of transposing that onto like you

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know now i i think about like um

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like what do have your have your thoughts

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about wordpress being the operating system

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of the web uh have you thought about

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it in those terms since uh that that

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word camp or like um

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How has WordPress sort of adapted or not

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adapted to that idea, do you think?

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Yeah,

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for a bit of context for those who

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may not be familiar with the idea,

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I first came across it in some of

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Matt Mullenweg's writings and some of the

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conversations.

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He dropped the thread.

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And then I think for me,

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my initial work was just pulling that

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thread.

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One of my first conversations with Matt

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was on this topic and I wanted to

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like

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pick his brain further like, hey,

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do you think that this is still relevant?

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My thinking has evolved on it.

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I think what always drew me to it

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is that if you had the conversation with

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someone more technical,

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they'd be quick to point out, well,

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this isn't an operating system in the

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technical sense.

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I'm like, well,

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that was never my contention.

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But for me, the starting point,

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I've written a couple of pieces about this

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over the years.

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The starting point was this idea of like,

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well,

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what is an operating system and what are

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the parts and pieces of it?

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And an ecosystem around it was always an

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interesting,

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was always a key component of the

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conversation for me.

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And I think just what clicked for me

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in that process was like,

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I can already see how people are using

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WordPress far beyond blogging.

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To me,

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this idea of it's empowering all this

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creativity,

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all this new capability that just wasn't

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there before.

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And many folks are using WordPress,

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myself included,

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especially back then at the time with some

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of the projects I was working on.

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Far beyond the scope of anything I

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imagined,

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at least it was publicly documented about

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how you might use something like this.

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Especially with WooCommerce being a great

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illustration of where that's grown and

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become or evolved.

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I think what remains highly relevant to

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me, Chris,

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about the topic is less about the

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technical.

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One of the more exciting things over the

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past couple of months,

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or really in the past year or so,

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was there was a couple of folks,

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a gentleman in particular,

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I'm forgetting his name,

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who worked on a concept of WordPress in

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a windowed mode,

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like desktop version of it.

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That got me pretty excited because it

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brought back a lot of those ideas.

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But what remains the draw to me is

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is the ecosystem around WordPress.

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That to me,

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even it's much less about the software.

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And I think that there's still,

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there's a fairly big open question mark

00:11:03.279 --> 00:11:04.640
right now about where WordPress is going

00:11:04.660 --> 00:11:07.542
to evolve from a technical perspective.

00:11:08.081 --> 00:11:10.702
I think folks making decisions still have

00:11:10.763 --> 00:11:12.463
that like operating system,

00:11:12.504 --> 00:11:15.024
like thinking as a part of the overall

00:11:15.083 --> 00:11:16.764
vision of how do we set up WordPress

00:11:16.804 --> 00:11:18.206
with these primitives,

00:11:18.765 --> 00:11:20.686
these foundational pieces so that others

00:11:20.726 --> 00:11:21.807
can build on top of it.

00:11:22.568 --> 00:11:24.590
And what holds my interest to this day

00:11:24.649 --> 00:11:26.130
just remains the size,

00:11:26.150 --> 00:11:28.672
the shape of the ecosystem around

00:11:28.711 --> 00:11:30.192
WordPress, which to me,

00:11:30.293 --> 00:11:32.774
they has so much latent energy in it

00:11:32.793 --> 00:11:33.934
that can be harnessed.

00:11:34.975 --> 00:11:35.936
Um, and,

00:11:35.995 --> 00:11:37.836
and I think that's what makes operating

00:11:37.856 --> 00:11:38.876
systems interesting.

00:11:39.057 --> 00:11:40.197
If you think about when we think of

00:11:40.217 --> 00:11:41.878
a traditional operating system these days,

00:11:42.698 --> 00:11:45.100
um, there's lots that technically exist,

00:11:45.120 --> 00:11:46.640
but only a few that tend to be

00:11:46.821 --> 00:11:47.821
interesting to folks.

00:11:47.841 --> 00:11:49.461
And it's because of the ecosystems around

00:11:49.501 --> 00:11:49.922
them.

00:11:49.942 --> 00:11:50.722
Right.

00:11:50.842 --> 00:11:51.003
Yeah.

00:11:52.371 --> 00:11:54.053
Yeah, that's a really good point.

00:11:54.313 --> 00:12:00.181
You think about particularly in the Linux

00:12:00.201 --> 00:12:00.601
community,

00:12:00.620 --> 00:12:04.505
the Linux distributions that get the most

00:12:05.206 --> 00:12:07.809
traction tend to be the ones that have

00:12:07.870 --> 00:12:10.131
the most active and vibrant communities

00:12:10.172 --> 00:12:10.533
around them.

00:12:11.033 --> 00:12:11.933
Yes, definitely.

00:12:11.953 --> 00:12:13.235
When I was playing with Linux,

00:12:13.395 --> 00:12:15.918
I was leaning towards Ubuntu and then

00:12:15.979 --> 00:12:16.558
like, okay,

00:12:16.599 --> 00:12:18.260
then I found Mint and like there's really

00:12:18.301 --> 00:12:21.563
like through what other people were doing

00:12:21.585 --> 00:12:24.987
and how they were doing it and like

00:12:25.008 --> 00:12:26.409
the approach because like, you know,

00:12:26.490 --> 00:12:28.091
every sort of flavor of Linux is

00:12:28.110 --> 00:12:28.552
different.

00:12:28.792 --> 00:12:30.732
is has a sort of a different philosophy

00:12:30.773 --> 00:12:32.433
and like which one it's like a choose

00:12:32.453 --> 00:12:34.395
your own adventure kind of you know and

00:12:34.436 --> 00:12:36.376
wordpress and drupal for that matter also

00:12:36.417 --> 00:12:38.138
have that sort of like choose your own

00:12:38.158 --> 00:12:40.700
adventure-ness of it because like really

00:12:40.880 --> 00:12:42.660
it's just a framework to put stuff into

00:12:42.991 --> 00:12:45.313
yeah plugins are a great illustration of

00:12:45.333 --> 00:12:46.695
that in the wordpress context right the

00:12:46.735 --> 00:12:50.177
plugins that you choose and the adventure

00:12:50.197 --> 00:12:53.519
that those plugins take you on can can

00:12:53.838 --> 00:12:55.059
open up all sorts of paths and

00:12:55.100 --> 00:12:56.620
possibilities and of course you can build

00:12:56.660 --> 00:12:59.884
your own stuff and with with with ai

00:12:59.904 --> 00:13:02.524
in particular these days we're in a we're

00:13:02.544 --> 00:13:04.086
in an interesting moment it's hard one of

00:13:04.106 --> 00:13:05.908
the things i've always enjoyed chris about

00:13:06.768 --> 00:13:08.610
like the wordpress ecosystems and

00:13:08.689 --> 00:13:10.871
ecosystem thinking in general is that you

00:13:10.912 --> 00:13:14.575
can't really like we don't have enough

00:13:14.956 --> 00:13:17.217
attention or bandwidth like in our human

00:13:17.237 --> 00:13:19.399
brains to be able to like hold the

00:13:19.419 --> 00:13:20.981
whole thing so you can do work to

00:13:21.000 --> 00:13:23.182
understand the size and shape and and get

00:13:23.242 --> 00:13:24.605
a sense of things like i've always been

00:13:24.644 --> 00:13:25.885
drawn to this idea of like mapping

00:13:25.966 --> 00:13:28.008
ecosystems and creating maps and maps are

00:13:28.048 --> 00:13:29.109
great examples of

00:13:29.808 --> 00:13:32.830
human centric interfaces that have like

00:13:32.850 --> 00:13:34.290
just a lot of density in it.

00:13:34.971 --> 00:13:37.991
And it's not about the literal accuracy,

00:13:38.652 --> 00:13:39.532
even though that matters.

00:13:39.552 --> 00:13:40.653
It's like, you're not going,

00:13:41.173 --> 00:13:43.654
you choose a level of detail that's

00:13:44.333 --> 00:13:46.215
practically useful for the human that's

00:13:46.475 --> 00:13:47.034
using the map.

00:13:47.937 --> 00:13:49.859
And as I think about the WordPress

00:13:49.938 --> 00:13:51.620
ecosystem, that's a tricky thing.

00:13:51.860 --> 00:13:52.780
It's so vast.

00:13:53.240 --> 00:13:54.322
There's so many parts and pieces.

00:13:54.341 --> 00:13:57.023
It's hard to understand how the impact of

00:13:57.043 --> 00:13:58.663
the decisions that are being made today

00:13:58.683 --> 00:13:59.323
are going to,

00:13:59.583 --> 00:14:00.904
what ramifications that they're going to

00:14:00.924 --> 00:14:01.325
have.

00:14:02.106 --> 00:14:05.288
And I still find all that really

00:14:05.327 --> 00:14:06.648
interesting and relevant.

00:14:07.448 --> 00:14:09.509
And I'm really curious to see where this

00:14:09.929 --> 00:14:11.811
little thing that we call WordPress goes.

00:14:12.250 --> 00:14:14.111
And also the impact of projects around it.

00:14:14.413 --> 00:14:16.213
The Drupal project remains relevant.

00:14:17.658 --> 00:14:19.780
It's interesting to see how it's carved a

00:14:19.801 --> 00:14:21.263
niche of its own over the years.

00:14:23.405 --> 00:14:25.689
It's all quite interesting.

00:14:26.235 --> 00:14:28.255
Yeah.

00:14:28.275 --> 00:14:28.775
Well, the question,

00:14:28.816 --> 00:14:31.277
one of the questions I always ask everyone

00:14:31.437 --> 00:14:33.317
is sort of what got you into tech?

00:14:33.356 --> 00:14:36.258
And what sort of brought you into whatever

00:14:36.298 --> 00:14:36.979
thing that you're doing?

00:14:37.038 --> 00:14:37.798
What what is?

00:14:38.139 --> 00:14:39.418
What is the thing that that?

00:14:40.279 --> 00:14:42.559
When did you start getting interested in

00:14:42.880 --> 00:14:44.160
technology broadly?

00:14:44.301 --> 00:14:45.461
And and what?

00:14:46.202 --> 00:14:47.402
What was exciting to you then?

00:14:49.147 --> 00:14:54.052
So I had an advantage or disadvantage,

00:14:54.072 --> 00:14:54.992
depending on how you look at it,

00:14:55.013 --> 00:14:57.515
in that I was homeschooled all the way

00:14:57.556 --> 00:15:01.159
up through end of high school.

00:15:03.442 --> 00:15:08.047
And that gave me the opportunity to...

00:15:09.869 --> 00:15:10.029
Yeah,

00:15:10.068 --> 00:15:11.689
just experienced technology at a young

00:15:11.750 --> 00:15:12.669
age, we had a computer.

00:15:14.210 --> 00:15:14.490
We,

00:15:14.811 --> 00:15:17.030
my first computer was an Apple two GS,

00:15:17.790 --> 00:15:19.552
I learned basic programming on it and

00:15:19.591 --> 00:15:19.991
loved it,

00:15:20.152 --> 00:15:21.612
like just being able to go through and,

00:15:21.753 --> 00:15:22.793
you know,

00:15:22.812 --> 00:15:24.313
work on something and be able to see

00:15:24.354 --> 00:15:26.774
the the cause and effect and change lines,

00:15:26.793 --> 00:15:27.894
like I wouldn't really understand

00:15:27.914 --> 00:15:28.174
everything,

00:15:28.215 --> 00:15:28.975
but I could see how

00:15:29.554 --> 00:15:30.635
I could change a line in the code

00:15:30.655 --> 00:15:31.856
and see what the impact of that would

00:15:31.897 --> 00:15:33.758
be yeah like in the output and that

00:15:33.778 --> 00:15:35.859
just yeah I think from a young age

00:15:36.038 --> 00:15:39.240
I had a curiosity about technology and was

00:15:39.260 --> 00:15:40.682
just really drawn to what it opened up

00:15:40.702 --> 00:15:41.923
for me it gave me an opportunity to

00:15:41.942 --> 00:15:43.423
connect with folks with shared interests

00:15:43.443 --> 00:15:45.284
around the world one of my first

00:15:45.304 --> 00:15:46.846
communities that I was a part of was

00:15:46.966 --> 00:15:50.227
um a homeschooling like forum where I met

00:15:50.248 --> 00:15:52.929
with like other homeschoolers and and then

00:15:53.189 --> 00:15:53.250
uh

00:15:53.908 --> 00:15:54.048
Yeah,

00:15:54.067 --> 00:15:55.269
I think it's been a pretty natural

00:15:55.289 --> 00:15:59.134
progression as a early or late teenager.

00:15:59.293 --> 00:16:00.294
Like as I started to look at what

00:16:00.335 --> 00:16:01.577
my career options were,

00:16:02.096 --> 00:16:03.538
I wasn't thinking about technology as a

00:16:03.599 --> 00:16:03.980
career.

00:16:04.907 --> 00:16:06.428
i was thinking about like i'm going to

00:16:06.447 --> 00:16:08.807
get into real estate and investing and

00:16:08.847 --> 00:16:11.188
sort of all these these things and i

00:16:11.208 --> 00:16:12.870
did a couple of internships and the thing

00:16:12.889 --> 00:16:15.750
that was useful in all of those is

00:16:15.790 --> 00:16:17.971
that they were seeing me as a techie

00:16:17.990 --> 00:16:19.652
like a technologist i was a young guy

00:16:19.692 --> 00:16:21.711
who was comfortable with tech and i was

00:16:21.751 --> 00:16:23.753
curious and suddenly i ended up in

00:16:23.793 --> 00:16:26.553
situations where like i'm like oh wow i'm

00:16:26.933 --> 00:16:28.674
Like I landed this project over here.

00:16:28.695 --> 00:16:30.275
I'm building a site for these guys over

00:16:30.336 --> 00:16:31.917
here and just kind of following wherever

00:16:31.937 --> 00:16:32.477
that led.

00:16:33.237 --> 00:16:34.379
And that's what ultimately put me in a

00:16:34.418 --> 00:16:35.860
situation where I was building a site and

00:16:35.880 --> 00:16:37.561
they wanted this thing called blogging.

00:16:38.201 --> 00:16:39.481
And I was like, all right,

00:16:39.562 --> 00:16:40.442
let me go figure that out.

00:16:40.562 --> 00:16:42.384
And I came across WordPress.

00:16:42.443 --> 00:16:43.784
I've been on blogger for a bit and

00:16:43.845 --> 00:16:44.904
I knew that that wasn't going to work

00:16:44.945 --> 00:16:46.426
for what they wanted.

00:16:47.427 --> 00:16:49.548
And then that brought me into that

00:16:49.587 --> 00:16:50.788
community experience.

00:16:51.529 --> 00:16:52.610
But I think as a whole,

00:16:52.649 --> 00:16:53.890
technology has just always been

00:16:53.931 --> 00:16:55.192
interesting for what it's enabled.

00:16:56.380 --> 00:17:01.124
And yeah, I think as a young person,

00:17:02.945 --> 00:17:05.147
the internet just provides so much access

00:17:05.307 --> 00:17:09.250
to learning, to context, to relationships,

00:17:09.289 --> 00:17:10.189
to resources.

00:17:10.910 --> 00:17:14.072
And even though the internet has changed

00:17:14.453 --> 00:17:15.394
quite a bit over the years,

00:17:15.855 --> 00:17:18.135
just the core value proposition has

00:17:18.196 --> 00:17:18.716
remained.

00:17:18.756 --> 00:17:21.798
And I found technology to just be really

00:17:22.078 --> 00:17:24.500
useful and something that I still enjoy

00:17:24.540 --> 00:17:25.682
learning about new things.

00:17:27.886 --> 00:17:31.128
I'm going to segue because I have a

00:17:31.288 --> 00:17:33.229
vested interest in hearing about your

00:17:33.328 --> 00:17:36.750
homeschool story because we homeschooled

00:17:36.790 --> 00:17:37.231
our kids.

00:17:38.250 --> 00:17:41.832
And I feel like I feel like one

00:17:41.873 --> 00:17:42.653
of the things,

00:17:42.773 --> 00:17:46.794
especially like family who have and who

00:17:46.835 --> 00:17:49.576
come up through the traditional school

00:17:49.696 --> 00:17:51.077
system like.

00:17:52.116 --> 00:17:53.658
The question that we always get is like,

00:17:53.719 --> 00:17:55.439
well, what about this?

00:17:55.500 --> 00:17:56.221
And what about that?

00:17:56.260 --> 00:17:57.282
And what are their, you know,

00:17:57.302 --> 00:17:59.203
what kind of jobs or colleges are they

00:17:59.224 --> 00:17:59.703
going to go to?

00:17:59.724 --> 00:18:01.806
Or like, are they missing out on?

00:18:01.826 --> 00:18:04.107
There's this assumption that because

00:18:04.229 --> 00:18:05.889
you're not going through the traditional

00:18:05.929 --> 00:18:06.650
school system,

00:18:07.071 --> 00:18:08.812
that there is a deficit there.

00:18:09.693 --> 00:18:13.797
And I'm interested in hearing about your

00:18:13.836 --> 00:18:14.236
experience,

00:18:14.256 --> 00:18:17.219
but also like what sort of if you

00:18:17.259 --> 00:18:20.121
maybe can talk about it or know,

00:18:20.221 --> 00:18:22.102
like what was the sort of thought process

00:18:22.242 --> 00:18:24.825
that your parents had in choosing to

00:18:24.865 --> 00:18:26.527
homeschool rather than putting you through

00:18:26.846 --> 00:18:28.067
the normal academic system?

00:18:28.908 --> 00:18:30.630
That's a fun topic for a mix of

00:18:30.669 --> 00:18:30.950
reasons.

00:18:30.990 --> 00:18:33.292
So my wife today is an educator,

00:18:35.934 --> 00:18:37.235
has taught for ten years,

00:18:37.296 --> 00:18:39.818
and she took a couple years off and

00:18:39.838 --> 00:18:41.360
is actually going back to school in the

00:18:41.399 --> 00:18:41.639
fall.

00:18:41.700 --> 00:18:43.022
So we talk about this a lot.

00:18:43.621 --> 00:18:44.482
And for the past couple of years,

00:18:44.503 --> 00:18:47.245
she's been educating our now

00:18:47.326 --> 00:18:49.448
nine-year-old.

00:18:49.667 --> 00:18:50.608
For my parents,

00:18:51.069 --> 00:18:52.731
so my father passed when I was quite

00:18:52.750 --> 00:18:52.990
young.

00:18:53.811 --> 00:18:54.992
And which added even more,

00:18:55.073 --> 00:18:55.913
made it even more interesting,

00:18:55.952 --> 00:18:57.334
the decision that my mom made to

00:18:57.374 --> 00:18:58.174
homeschool us.

00:18:58.254 --> 00:19:00.915
I was the oldest of three brothers and

00:19:01.115 --> 00:19:04.738
she homeschooled us up until, well,

00:19:04.798 --> 00:19:05.919
up through high school.

00:19:06.138 --> 00:19:07.240
And in high school,

00:19:07.279 --> 00:19:08.840
we were living in California at the time.

00:19:09.300 --> 00:19:11.061
We enrolled in a charter school program

00:19:11.102 --> 00:19:13.022
which provided us with a teacher who'd

00:19:13.063 --> 00:19:15.104
visit on like a monthly basis and also

00:19:15.345 --> 00:19:16.444
gave us resources.

00:19:16.464 --> 00:19:18.566
So we got computers through the school

00:19:18.606 --> 00:19:20.627
system, which was a big deal for us.

00:19:20.647 --> 00:19:21.907
That opened up a whole bunch of new

00:19:21.948 --> 00:19:22.648
possibilities.

00:19:23.211 --> 00:19:25.240
And then we started junior college in the

00:19:25.643 --> 00:19:26.828
last couple of years of high school.

00:19:28.145 --> 00:19:29.625
which was a really positive experience.

00:19:30.066 --> 00:19:31.606
I had that question going into it.

00:19:32.027 --> 00:19:33.227
How am I going to do in this

00:19:33.247 --> 00:19:34.507
like setting?

00:19:34.606 --> 00:19:35.967
And suddenly my brother and I,

00:19:37.087 --> 00:19:37.768
I was seventeen.

00:19:37.807 --> 00:19:38.768
He was fifteen at the time.

00:19:38.807 --> 00:19:41.667
We're in junior college classes together

00:19:41.688 --> 00:19:42.628
and we did really well.

00:19:43.009 --> 00:19:45.189
And that answered a lot of the questions

00:19:45.229 --> 00:19:46.888
in my mind of like and it wasn't

00:19:46.909 --> 00:19:48.230
so much all that we knew.

00:19:48.349 --> 00:19:51.369
It was our the curiosity that had been

00:19:51.410 --> 00:19:53.089
cultivated through that homeschool

00:19:53.129 --> 00:19:53.569
experience.

00:19:53.670 --> 00:19:55.330
I remember reading encyclopedias for fun.

00:19:57.846 --> 00:20:00.588
It probably helped that mom wasn't a fan

00:20:00.628 --> 00:20:01.930
of us watching much TV,

00:20:02.009 --> 00:20:04.171
so we'd get bored.

00:20:04.791 --> 00:20:06.211
And that, like, all right,

00:20:06.231 --> 00:20:07.552
I got all these encyclopedias here.

00:20:07.573 --> 00:20:08.273
Might as well dig in.

00:20:10.134 --> 00:20:12.895
But going into a school setting and doing

00:20:13.156 --> 00:20:14.396
junior college when we did,

00:20:15.577 --> 00:20:18.059
I just found it interesting and found

00:20:18.119 --> 00:20:20.060
that, yeah, we can apply ourselves.

00:20:20.100 --> 00:20:21.561
We can do well in this.

00:20:22.923 --> 00:20:24.804
The social thing is interesting.

00:20:26.049 --> 00:20:27.250
there's always benefits and trade-offs for

00:20:27.270 --> 00:20:28.612
whatever the choices you make, right?

00:20:28.811 --> 00:20:30.772
The benefit of a homeschool experience is

00:20:30.794 --> 00:20:35.636
the ability to curate and like, you know,

00:20:35.656 --> 00:20:37.857
refine what you're doing around interests.

00:20:37.959 --> 00:20:38.558
And it's gotten,

00:20:38.578 --> 00:20:40.299
there's so many great resources available

00:20:40.339 --> 00:20:40.700
today.

00:20:41.221 --> 00:20:44.383
My mom, especially as we got older,

00:20:44.623 --> 00:20:44.802
you know,

00:20:44.843 --> 00:20:47.125
she put more of her energy into working

00:20:47.184 --> 00:20:48.865
as a single mother to provide for us.

00:20:48.885 --> 00:20:50.567
So she was less involved in our direct

00:20:50.626 --> 00:20:51.347
education and,

00:20:52.128 --> 00:20:55.191
and there was a one might argue like

00:20:55.211 --> 00:20:58.192
too much freedom that we had um but

00:20:58.252 --> 00:21:00.513
it's what facilitated so much of the time

00:21:00.534 --> 00:21:02.516
that we spent online like learning things

00:21:02.576 --> 00:21:05.057
and my brother took up graphic design out

00:21:05.077 --> 00:21:07.578
of interest and just put a ton of

00:21:07.618 --> 00:21:09.740
effort into learning how to use

00:21:09.779 --> 00:21:11.921
illustrator and sort of do all this stuff

00:21:11.981 --> 00:21:14.643
and i took an interest in communities and

00:21:15.723 --> 00:21:17.365
um yeah i think uh

00:21:18.463 --> 00:21:20.766
I think there's with anything there,

00:21:20.885 --> 00:21:22.487
there are benefits and trade-offs.

00:21:22.688 --> 00:21:26.231
I found that like the concerns that folks

00:21:26.270 --> 00:21:26.911
had about like, Oh,

00:21:26.951 --> 00:21:29.173
you're not going to be like socialized in

00:21:29.192 --> 00:21:29.913
a homeschool setting.

00:21:29.933 --> 00:21:31.115
The only thing that I really struggled

00:21:31.154 --> 00:21:33.276
with in retrospect is I had a harder

00:21:33.296 --> 00:21:35.258
time relating to my own age group growing

00:21:35.317 --> 00:21:35.577
up.

00:21:35.878 --> 00:21:36.078
Yeah.

00:21:36.598 --> 00:21:37.379
I've more,

00:21:37.420 --> 00:21:39.281
I'd spend more time talking with adults

00:21:40.522 --> 00:21:41.442
and, or, you know,

00:21:41.482 --> 00:21:42.384
folks that were younger,

00:21:42.683 --> 00:21:44.106
but my own age was just kind of,

00:21:44.205 --> 00:21:45.686
I found it harder to relate and,

00:21:46.386 --> 00:21:48.448
And that's something that stuck with me

00:21:48.488 --> 00:21:51.588
for a good amount of time into my

00:21:51.628 --> 00:21:52.410
early adulthood.

00:21:53.190 --> 00:21:55.490
But yeah, it was a good experience.

00:21:55.691 --> 00:21:59.011
There's so many little nuggets in your

00:21:59.051 --> 00:22:02.232
story that I see and identify with.

00:22:02.272 --> 00:22:05.535
Like the idea of having a...

00:22:06.971 --> 00:22:08.750
well, reading for fun, or reading, like,

00:22:08.790 --> 00:22:10.251
being is having a special interest,

00:22:10.432 --> 00:22:12.471
essentially, in a particular, like,

00:22:12.511 --> 00:22:14.432
thing that is, like, not just, like,

00:22:14.712 --> 00:22:17.813
reading encyclopedias for fun, but also,

00:22:19.453 --> 00:22:19.753
yeah,

00:22:20.193 --> 00:22:23.214
relating to and interacting with adults

00:22:23.315 --> 00:22:25.474
more easily than people of your own peer

00:22:25.494 --> 00:22:26.855
group, and, like,

00:22:27.536 --> 00:22:28.935
having a sort of a weird...

00:22:29.496 --> 00:22:31.336
um, I don't want to say distance,

00:22:31.396 --> 00:22:32.376
but like, there's like,

00:22:32.978 --> 00:22:34.739
there's like a thing there, like,

00:22:35.038 --> 00:22:36.199
especially when,

00:22:36.460 --> 00:22:38.461
when sort of reentering like normal

00:22:38.540 --> 00:22:39.381
society or whatever.

00:22:39.401 --> 00:22:39.580
Right.

00:22:39.600 --> 00:22:42.603
Because so, so my son, uh,

00:22:42.623 --> 00:22:44.683
we homeschooled all through up, uh,

00:22:44.943 --> 00:22:46.644
through, throughout, through high school,

00:22:47.224 --> 00:22:48.885
um, and gave him a graduation.

00:22:49.445 --> 00:22:51.686
Um, and then my daughter, um,

00:22:51.727 --> 00:22:53.768
we did one year of high school and

00:22:53.807 --> 00:22:55.388
then they, um,

00:22:55.409 --> 00:22:57.690
they went to an actual high school.

00:22:57.710 --> 00:22:58.570
So they, they joined,

00:22:58.911 --> 00:22:59.632
as a ninth grader,

00:22:59.751 --> 00:23:01.314
even though they had one year of

00:23:01.374 --> 00:23:02.174
homeschooled high school,

00:23:02.194 --> 00:23:03.715
so they're a year older.

00:23:04.376 --> 00:23:06.239
And we did that partially because we

00:23:07.700 --> 00:23:10.302
wanted to be a little bit tentative about

00:23:10.383 --> 00:23:11.304
that transition.

00:23:12.325 --> 00:23:12.685
It's been...

00:23:14.247 --> 00:23:17.911
My son had gone to a couple years

00:23:18.171 --> 00:23:21.555
of a charter school before we pulled him

00:23:21.875 --> 00:23:22.096
out.

00:23:23.517 --> 00:23:25.118
And my daughter had been through a

00:23:26.941 --> 00:23:29.784
semester of kindergarten.

00:23:30.324 --> 00:23:31.685
And we pulled them out.

00:23:32.113 --> 00:23:32.713
At the same time,

00:23:32.733 --> 00:23:33.934
but at the time what we saw with

00:23:33.975 --> 00:23:35.998
my daughter in particular was like she had

00:23:36.038 --> 00:23:39.142
this like very vibrant personality that

00:23:39.182 --> 00:23:41.846
the longer she was in class,

00:23:42.066 --> 00:23:43.647
the more that got dimmed.

00:23:44.450 --> 00:23:45.451
Interesting.

00:23:45.631 --> 00:23:46.551
And we're like...

00:23:47.512 --> 00:23:50.816
We do not want to dim this light.

00:23:50.875 --> 00:23:52.677
We want them to feel,

00:23:53.258 --> 00:23:56.020
to be their whole person, right?

00:23:56.221 --> 00:24:01.865
And I think that that has worked.

00:24:02.346 --> 00:24:04.528
I do feel like they are way more

00:24:04.548 --> 00:24:05.067
independent.

00:24:05.107 --> 00:24:07.691
They are way more like...

00:24:08.490 --> 00:24:10.112
know what they want and know what they

00:24:10.172 --> 00:24:10.492
like.

00:24:10.913 --> 00:24:12.854
Um, and so when they did go into,

00:24:13.173 --> 00:24:15.096
into school again, it was,

00:24:15.756 --> 00:24:18.317
it was an adaptation of like learning the

00:24:18.438 --> 00:24:20.440
system and how to operate in the system.

00:24:20.900 --> 00:24:22.520
But with all of this sort of like

00:24:22.760 --> 00:24:25.282
side experience and knowledge that put

00:24:25.302 --> 00:24:26.904
them on a maturity level that were like

00:24:27.084 --> 00:24:29.365
way past, you know,

00:24:29.405 --> 00:24:31.647
like more so than even like the,

00:24:31.688 --> 00:24:32.667
the year age different,

00:24:32.688 --> 00:24:35.109
but like they were far, you know,

00:24:35.170 --> 00:24:35.871
more because they've,

00:24:36.451 --> 00:24:38.232
they had done things themselves.

00:24:38.272 --> 00:24:40.494
They had felt, had the creativity and the,

00:24:40.835 --> 00:24:42.636
and the freedom to explore their own

00:24:42.696 --> 00:24:46.039
interests and whatever that, and that,

00:24:46.099 --> 00:24:46.660
that's a very,

00:24:46.881 --> 00:24:48.061
that's a very homeschooling thing.

00:24:49.593 --> 00:24:53.116
it is it's interesting to see um because

00:24:53.156 --> 00:24:54.779
again i think i think these days much

00:24:54.838 --> 00:24:56.019
more in terms of like benefits and

00:24:56.059 --> 00:24:58.261
trade-offs right like there's there's

00:24:58.301 --> 00:24:59.983
definitely there's definitely benefits to

00:25:00.003 --> 00:25:02.386
more traditional school experiences and

00:25:02.446 --> 00:25:04.087
i'm learning to a lot of it does

00:25:04.127 --> 00:25:05.910
come down to the nature of the the

00:25:05.950 --> 00:25:08.012
child as well like my i was pretty

00:25:08.113 --> 00:25:10.035
adamant about homeschooling initially

00:25:10.680 --> 00:25:12.761
but my sixteen-year-old, he's now sixteen,

00:25:12.902 --> 00:25:14.663
as a five and six-year-old,

00:25:15.044 --> 00:25:17.606
he just did so well going into a,

00:25:17.787 --> 00:25:19.729
like he went to school from the outset,

00:25:19.769 --> 00:25:21.770
and he was so social, and he just,

00:25:21.830 --> 00:25:23.272
he thrived in a school environment.

00:25:23.292 --> 00:25:24.233
It was a smaller school,

00:25:24.273 --> 00:25:25.174
he had a great teacher,

00:25:25.275 --> 00:25:27.217
and the teacher is really what made all

00:25:27.237 --> 00:25:27.936
the difference for me.

00:25:27.997 --> 00:25:28.758
I'm like, wow,

00:25:28.778 --> 00:25:30.259
this is just a great educator,

00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:30.400
and

00:25:30.801 --> 00:25:32.563
now being married to an educator who also

00:25:32.603 --> 00:25:33.403
homeschools.

00:25:34.943 --> 00:25:37.424
And our nine-year-old will actually be

00:25:38.045 --> 00:25:40.606
going into the sixth grade classroom with

00:25:40.645 --> 00:25:43.708
her that she'll be teaching because he's

00:25:43.847 --> 00:25:45.429
well advanced in the majority of the

00:25:45.469 --> 00:25:45.929
subjects.

00:25:46.489 --> 00:25:47.410
I think for me,

00:25:47.930 --> 00:25:49.089
it was interesting to see...

00:25:51.932 --> 00:25:54.093
It was interesting to see the things that

00:25:54.673 --> 00:25:56.193
would probably have been,

00:25:56.953 --> 00:25:57.974
for better or for worse,

00:25:58.035 --> 00:26:01.135
refined out of me in a school setting

00:26:01.737 --> 00:26:04.458
that didn't going into adulthood.

00:26:05.137 --> 00:26:06.699
I think one of the things that you

00:26:06.739 --> 00:26:08.220
get in a school setting is for better

00:26:08.240 --> 00:26:08.559
or for worse,

00:26:08.599 --> 00:26:11.481
there's a lot of peer feedback and things

00:26:11.541 --> 00:26:14.663
that get quashed or encouraged based on

00:26:14.903 --> 00:26:16.804
the dynamics and where you are in the

00:26:16.904 --> 00:26:17.785
social hierarchy.

00:26:18.384 --> 00:26:19.665
you don't get any of that in homeschool

00:26:20.707 --> 00:26:23.469
and i think in my case there's a

00:26:23.548 --> 00:26:25.411
lot of things that i've noticed about me

00:26:25.471 --> 00:26:27.752
going into adulthood and into my career

00:26:28.272 --> 00:26:29.835
where it doesn't occur to me to not

00:26:29.934 --> 00:26:33.257
ask questions of something or to just to

00:26:33.356 --> 00:26:36.640
challenge the status quo or to like you

00:26:36.660 --> 00:26:39.221
know feel a uh i don't i don't

00:26:39.261 --> 00:26:41.703
feel a need to ask for permission around

00:26:41.723 --> 00:26:43.306
just many things where it's like oh well

00:26:43.846 --> 00:26:45.366
i remember like even this whole like

00:26:45.487 --> 00:26:47.029
operating system thing

00:26:47.568 --> 00:26:49.210
I remember seeing Matt write about it or

00:26:49.250 --> 00:26:49.830
talk about it.

00:26:49.891 --> 00:26:50.912
And then it was interesting to me.

00:26:50.991 --> 00:26:52.873
And in the first conversation,

00:26:53.473 --> 00:26:55.375
I went to him looking for answers and

00:26:55.414 --> 00:26:56.655
more input on it.

00:26:57.435 --> 00:26:59.478
And then he gave me some great feedback.

00:26:59.518 --> 00:27:01.779
And I saw that he was focused on

00:27:01.819 --> 00:27:02.440
other things.

00:27:03.240 --> 00:27:05.001
And he was focused more on WordPress as

00:27:05.021 --> 00:27:05.542
a product.

00:27:05.722 --> 00:27:06.722
And I was like, oh, well,

00:27:07.163 --> 00:27:07.943
I could run with this.

00:27:08.144 --> 00:27:09.404
I could take this idea further.

00:27:09.424 --> 00:27:10.625
And let's see where we take it.

00:27:10.806 --> 00:27:12.548
And I just did.

00:27:12.927 --> 00:27:15.629
And I'm like, well, I'll talk about it.

00:27:16.951 --> 00:27:18.811
I'll see if anyone else finds this

00:27:18.892 --> 00:27:19.512
interesting.

00:27:20.153 --> 00:27:22.714
And it didn't occur to me to not.

00:27:22.994 --> 00:27:23.974
And that gets me into trouble

00:27:23.994 --> 00:27:24.556
occasionally.

00:27:25.016 --> 00:27:27.677
But I do see that as something that

00:27:27.798 --> 00:27:31.579
could have been quashed or discouraged in

00:27:32.780 --> 00:27:34.181
a more traditional school setting.

00:27:35.221 --> 00:27:35.442
Again,

00:27:35.521 --> 00:27:36.722
it really comes down to the teachers

00:27:36.762 --> 00:27:38.804
because great teachers also recognize

00:27:38.844 --> 00:27:41.326
those moments and bring it out of kids

00:27:41.346 --> 00:27:42.046
and encourage it.

00:27:42.486 --> 00:27:44.427
I'm also really grateful for the...

00:27:45.489 --> 00:27:47.369
the several years of the charter school

00:27:47.390 --> 00:27:48.490
teacher who came out to visit us,

00:27:48.671 --> 00:27:50.751
she had a huge impact because she saw

00:27:52.333 --> 00:27:53.953
my writing potential, for instance.

00:27:54.074 --> 00:27:55.815
And she held me to a higher standard

00:27:55.835 --> 00:27:56.816
where she's like, hey, Jonathan,

00:27:56.856 --> 00:27:58.817
I know that you're capable of more than

00:27:58.856 --> 00:28:00.198
I'm seeing you put in effort-wise,

00:28:00.258 --> 00:28:01.659
even though you're not motivated in this

00:28:01.739 --> 00:28:02.019
area.

00:28:02.038 --> 00:28:02.338
She's like,

00:28:02.398 --> 00:28:03.339
I want you to get into poetry.

00:28:03.379 --> 00:28:05.221
I want you to submit for a contest

00:28:05.300 --> 00:28:05.721
over here.

00:28:05.760 --> 00:28:08.083
I want you to put some more effort

00:28:08.163 --> 00:28:09.442
in this thing over here.

00:28:09.462 --> 00:28:12.744
And I did and continue to reap the

00:28:12.765 --> 00:28:14.526
rewards to this day for the effort that

00:28:14.567 --> 00:28:15.267
I invested then.

00:28:17.065 --> 00:28:18.867
Yeah, yeah.

00:28:20.531 --> 00:28:20.751
Yeah,

00:28:21.354 --> 00:28:24.118
it's so fun and cool to talk about.

00:28:25.080 --> 00:28:25.823
I think there's so much.

00:28:29.328 --> 00:28:30.250
I think that there,

00:28:30.730 --> 00:28:32.231
it definitely does depend on the school

00:28:32.330 --> 00:28:36.054
and the educators and the experience.

00:28:36.894 --> 00:28:39.557
But so much, like,

00:28:40.336 --> 00:28:42.598
especially when we were talking about

00:28:43.038 --> 00:28:44.099
pulling our kids out,

00:28:44.160 --> 00:28:45.861
there was a lot of discussion.

00:28:45.901 --> 00:28:47.021
And this is so, this is like,

00:28:47.182 --> 00:28:48.563
you know, I don't know,

00:28:48.583 --> 00:28:49.564
fifteen years ago or something.

00:28:50.865 --> 00:28:52.346
there's a lot of discussion like in TED

00:28:52.385 --> 00:28:54.207
talks and stuff about like the the school

00:28:54.247 --> 00:28:56.909
industrial system as it yes existed yes

00:28:57.009 --> 00:28:58.809
and the idea that it came out of

00:28:58.849 --> 00:29:00.431
the Industrial Revolution to just

00:29:00.452 --> 00:29:00.912
basically

00:29:01.663 --> 00:29:05.547
fabricate a bunch of worker cogs that are

00:29:05.586 --> 00:29:07.907
in the machine and then continue operating

00:29:07.948 --> 00:29:10.529
in the machine of commerce.

00:29:10.750 --> 00:29:14.133
And, you know, when you're doing that,

00:29:14.573 --> 00:29:16.993
then you're trying to get these identical

00:29:17.055 --> 00:29:20.416
little cogs so that they operate in the

00:29:20.457 --> 00:29:21.938
system that is going to be...

00:29:21.958 --> 00:29:22.837
You want that uniformity.

00:29:23.219 --> 00:29:23.919
Yeah, exactly.

00:29:25.359 --> 00:29:25.559
And...

00:29:26.661 --> 00:29:29.362
you know obviously people are different

00:29:30.342 --> 00:29:34.403
and uh like particularly like you know my

00:29:34.542 --> 00:29:36.762
my partner and i are are both very

00:29:36.802 --> 00:29:38.383
creative we went to a school like we

00:29:38.442 --> 00:29:41.023
met at a school that like was very

00:29:41.064 --> 00:29:43.163
sort of counter-cultural and let us create

00:29:43.183 --> 00:29:44.704
our own major and that was the reason

00:29:44.744 --> 00:29:47.724
why we went there yeah um and and

00:29:47.805 --> 00:29:49.806
so like we obviously already had these

00:29:49.945 --> 00:29:51.705
ideas of like well there's there's other

00:29:51.806 --> 00:29:54.267
things that aren't just this like and like

00:29:54.287 --> 00:29:55.146
it's funny because like

00:29:55.446 --> 00:29:57.429
the thing that I tell about my college

00:29:57.469 --> 00:30:00.712
experience is like, yeah, I got a degree,

00:30:00.752 --> 00:30:01.994
but what I actually learned was how to

00:30:02.015 --> 00:30:02.494
bullshit.

00:30:03.596 --> 00:30:05.398
And that's like actually the most valuable

00:30:05.439 --> 00:30:07.981
skill that I got because part of the

00:30:08.001 --> 00:30:12.205
process that we did to get our degrees,

00:30:12.246 --> 00:30:12.366
we

00:30:12.866 --> 00:30:14.207
We didn't do grades.

00:30:14.287 --> 00:30:17.048
Each student would do a self-evaluation,

00:30:17.087 --> 00:30:20.008
and their teacher or their faculty advisor

00:30:20.028 --> 00:30:22.029
would do a written evaluation,

00:30:22.088 --> 00:30:24.489
and the faculty evaluation is what would

00:30:24.529 --> 00:30:25.629
go on your file.

00:30:26.269 --> 00:30:27.750
And then, yeah, you'd get a pass-fail,

00:30:27.789 --> 00:30:29.170
but they'd have an evaluation,

00:30:29.190 --> 00:30:31.590
which means that you would actually hear

00:30:31.631 --> 00:30:32.750
about what you did well,

00:30:32.830 --> 00:30:33.810
what you didn't do well,

00:30:34.471 --> 00:30:35.871
and it would be in response to your

00:30:35.932 --> 00:30:37.571
self-evaluation what you felt like you

00:30:37.592 --> 00:30:38.172
were working on.

00:30:38.592 --> 00:30:39.531
That's cool.

00:30:39.612 --> 00:30:40.613
And then at the end,

00:30:40.772 --> 00:30:47.294
you had to do essentially defend why your

00:30:47.355 --> 00:30:48.494
major should exist,

00:30:48.654 --> 00:30:51.036
like what it is and what you did

00:30:51.135 --> 00:30:52.776
and like what all the pieces are.

00:30:53.115 --> 00:30:54.215
And you had a couple faculty,

00:30:54.236 --> 00:30:55.836
like your faculty advisor would be there

00:30:55.876 --> 00:30:57.936
and talk about what you did and whatever.

00:30:58.298 --> 00:30:59.238
But it was sort of like.

00:30:59.938 --> 00:31:02.160
uh, a statement of purpose kind of like,

00:31:02.259 --> 00:31:03.641
and also like in front of like a

00:31:03.701 --> 00:31:05.821
panel, um, to be like, and like,

00:31:05.902 --> 00:31:07.563
obviously it's a little bit ceremonial.

00:31:07.623 --> 00:31:09.564
Like there's not very many people are

00:31:09.584 --> 00:31:10.825
going to say, yeah, no, you're bad.

00:31:11.184 --> 00:31:14.146
But like, it really was like, can I,

00:31:14.366 --> 00:31:16.087
can I put all these ideas together?

00:31:16.548 --> 00:31:18.609
And for me, like, yeah,

00:31:18.629 --> 00:31:19.911
the reason why I say bullshit is because

00:31:19.931 --> 00:31:20.050
like,

00:31:20.971 --> 00:31:22.212
can I bullshit my way out of this?

00:31:22.232 --> 00:31:23.374
Can I put all these things together and

00:31:23.394 --> 00:31:25.557
make it sound good enough that I'm able

00:31:25.577 --> 00:31:26.376
to defend the thing?

00:31:26.837 --> 00:31:27.878
And honestly,

00:31:27.919 --> 00:31:30.080
like being able to defend your ideas is

00:31:30.121 --> 00:31:32.063
a thing that is the single most

00:31:32.103 --> 00:31:33.684
transferable skill that I've pulled.

00:31:33.744 --> 00:31:35.686
It doesn't matter the classes that I took.

00:31:36.146 --> 00:31:37.709
And to do it honestly and in a

00:31:37.749 --> 00:31:39.850
way that like you can be satisfied with

00:31:39.891 --> 00:31:39.931
it,

00:31:39.951 --> 00:31:41.011
you're not just like pushing your way

00:31:41.031 --> 00:31:41.612
through where it's like,

00:31:41.672 --> 00:31:42.313
I've done the work.

00:31:42.353 --> 00:31:44.094
And even if I'm making stuff out of

00:31:44.134 --> 00:31:44.615
thin air,

00:31:44.634 --> 00:31:46.556
it's like you can have a confidence in

00:31:46.596 --> 00:31:47.778
it that I'm like,

00:31:47.938 --> 00:31:49.818
this feels good to me.

00:31:49.838 --> 00:31:49.919
Yeah.

00:31:49.939 --> 00:31:50.299
Yeah.

00:31:50.579 --> 00:31:51.361
There's something there.

00:31:51.441 --> 00:31:51.641
Yeah.

00:31:52.307 --> 00:31:54.309
Yeah, I like that.

00:31:54.329 --> 00:31:56.992
I went last year actually and re-enrolled

00:31:57.173 --> 00:31:59.777
in college.

00:32:00.096 --> 00:32:04.102
I started out working towards an MBA.

00:32:04.162 --> 00:32:08.367
You get very philosophy major vibes.

00:32:09.471 --> 00:32:10.412
Well, here's what's interesting.

00:32:12.472 --> 00:32:14.315
I actually took a philosophy course last

00:32:14.355 --> 00:32:15.915
quarter and thoroughly enjoyed it.

00:32:16.516 --> 00:32:18.698
And it's making me think that I might

00:32:18.738 --> 00:32:20.960
try to go more down an interdisciplinary

00:32:21.319 --> 00:32:22.240
route to actually finish.

00:32:22.280 --> 00:32:24.501
But the reason why I started is that

00:32:24.602 --> 00:32:27.585
I had noticed just gaps in my...

00:32:29.445 --> 00:32:30.606
So much of what I've done has been

00:32:30.646 --> 00:32:31.827
based on just experience and trying to

00:32:31.847 --> 00:32:32.488
figure things out.

00:32:32.909 --> 00:32:35.871
So I took several quarters of accounting.

00:32:35.931 --> 00:32:36.771
I did business law.

00:32:37.551 --> 00:32:38.051
And it's been,

00:32:38.692 --> 00:32:39.894
getting back into like college level

00:32:39.933 --> 00:32:40.513
mathematics,

00:32:40.554 --> 00:32:42.295
it's been invaluable for me and just

00:32:42.596 --> 00:32:44.436
further anchors how much I like learning.

00:32:44.836 --> 00:32:47.098
What's been interesting about it, Chris,

00:32:47.118 --> 00:32:50.121
I think a lot about like designing around

00:32:50.181 --> 00:32:50.721
constraints,

00:32:50.740 --> 00:32:52.521
especially as humans with our limited

00:32:53.262 --> 00:32:55.724
capacity and attention.

00:32:56.635 --> 00:32:59.239
And even though all of that information is

00:32:59.298 --> 00:33:01.461
technically just available to you online,

00:33:01.481 --> 00:33:02.583
like I didn't have to go to a

00:33:02.643 --> 00:33:04.045
college course to learn accounting,

00:33:04.144 --> 00:33:06.708
but it was a forcing function.

00:33:06.887 --> 00:33:09.631
And I actually learned accounting over the

00:33:09.671 --> 00:33:11.353
course of like the formality,

00:33:11.432 --> 00:33:13.615
the ceremony, the process of enrolling,

00:33:13.955 --> 00:33:15.798
having an educator on the other side of

00:33:15.877 --> 00:33:15.958
it.

00:33:16.775 --> 00:33:17.414
this day and age,

00:33:17.435 --> 00:33:19.436
what made it possible was the fact that

00:33:19.497 --> 00:33:20.857
even though it was my local college,

00:33:21.357 --> 00:33:22.239
it was asynchronous.

00:33:22.358 --> 00:33:24.539
So I was able to do all but

00:33:24.559 --> 00:33:26.122
the testing like remotely.

00:33:26.922 --> 00:33:29.463
And I found it to be like a

00:33:29.544 --> 00:33:31.744
counterintuitively, just a great move.

00:33:32.185 --> 00:33:34.086
Now at this stage in my life, um,

00:33:34.287 --> 00:33:36.769
the social component just somewhat sadly,

00:33:36.808 --> 00:33:37.048
I guess,

00:33:37.068 --> 00:33:39.070
we're just not interesting or relevant or

00:33:39.111 --> 00:33:40.872
even practical because I'm working,

00:33:40.932 --> 00:33:41.771
I've got a family.

00:33:42.752 --> 00:33:45.295
Um, and, uh, but I just, um,

00:33:46.135 --> 00:33:47.256
I love education.

00:33:47.636 --> 00:33:49.057
I love learning new things.

00:33:49.617 --> 00:33:50.538
It ended up being a bit of a

00:33:50.598 --> 00:33:53.461
goldmine for me of just stepping into a

00:33:53.520 --> 00:33:55.762
more structured formal process.

00:33:57.864 --> 00:33:59.725
It's hard too because I also want to

00:33:59.746 --> 00:34:00.946
do well with it.

00:34:00.987 --> 00:34:02.048
There were a few times where I'm like,

00:34:02.087 --> 00:34:03.008
this is a little insane.

00:34:03.048 --> 00:34:04.328
I can't believe I'm doing all this right

00:34:04.368 --> 00:34:06.171
now.

00:34:06.691 --> 00:34:08.152
I've been thoroughly enjoying it and

00:34:08.172 --> 00:34:08.932
continuing to do so.

00:34:09.556 --> 00:34:10.616
Yeah.

00:34:10.636 --> 00:34:11.376
Talk about, uh,

00:34:11.478 --> 00:34:12.699
talk about Guildenberg for a little bit.

00:34:12.719 --> 00:34:13.538
Like what is, uh,

00:34:13.558 --> 00:34:15.320
what is the story of, of Guildenberg?

00:34:15.361 --> 00:34:16.240
How did that form?

00:34:16.300 --> 00:34:18.623
And what actually were you doing when you

00:34:18.643 --> 00:34:19.084
were doing it?

00:34:19.124 --> 00:34:19.263
I mean,

00:34:19.423 --> 00:34:20.565
I know what you were doing a little

00:34:20.585 --> 00:34:22.665
bit, but yeah.

00:34:22.787 --> 00:34:23.586
Super interesting.

00:34:24.208 --> 00:34:26.328
So I coming out of my time at

00:34:26.409 --> 00:34:27.009
automatic.

00:34:28.365 --> 00:34:30.467
I wanted to focus on the broader WordPress

00:34:30.547 --> 00:34:31.106
ecosystem.

00:34:31.126 --> 00:34:32.248
And I had an initial vision,

00:34:32.307 --> 00:34:34.049
which I wrote about quite publicly.

00:34:34.651 --> 00:34:36.412
And then I started working with a few

00:34:36.452 --> 00:34:39.975
folks to build out some of these ideas

00:34:40.016 --> 00:34:42.057
where it's like, how can we do conscious,

00:34:42.117 --> 00:34:44.240
proactive work to grow the WordPress

00:34:44.299 --> 00:34:44.921
ecosystem?

00:34:45.100 --> 00:34:45.901
What does it look like?

00:34:46.642 --> 00:34:49.065
And I had a lot of big ideas

00:34:49.224 --> 00:34:51.166
in my head at the time where things

00:34:51.207 --> 00:34:52.909
became quite practical.

00:34:53.088 --> 00:34:54.009
I had a couple of folks I was

00:34:54.049 --> 00:34:54.971
working with initially.

00:34:55.731 --> 00:34:58.295
And then I met Tammy Lister in the

00:34:58.335 --> 00:34:59.056
process.

00:34:59.856 --> 00:35:01.557
And, you know,

00:35:01.577 --> 00:35:03.039
I had some initial things that we tried

00:35:03.059 --> 00:35:03.800
with Guildenberg.

00:35:04.721 --> 00:35:05.202
success.

00:35:05.221 --> 00:35:07.423
A lot of things just like I found

00:35:08.003 --> 00:35:11.827
this is what that I guess the willingness

00:35:11.867 --> 00:35:14.230
to just go in and try things or

00:35:14.509 --> 00:35:16.592
maybe the confidence slash hubris at

00:35:16.632 --> 00:35:17.011
times.

00:35:17.732 --> 00:35:17.833
Hey,

00:35:17.853 --> 00:35:19.354
I'm going to just try this big thing

00:35:19.394 --> 00:35:20.355
and then oh wow,

00:35:20.394 --> 00:35:21.895
that did not work as I expected.

00:35:23.037 --> 00:35:24.637
But you learn a lot from it and

00:35:24.657 --> 00:35:25.940
there were some things that remained

00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:28.741
interesting and I saw an opportunity to

00:35:28.981 --> 00:35:29.583
to say, okay,

00:35:29.722 --> 00:35:31.423
even if the idea of building out,

00:35:31.443 --> 00:35:32.484
because we were looking at like building a

00:35:32.525 --> 00:35:35.066
platform and like all this infrastructure,

00:35:35.086 --> 00:35:37.427
I was like, well, that's not really,

00:35:38.308 --> 00:35:40.289
it's not going the way that I expected

00:35:40.309 --> 00:35:40.490
to,

00:35:40.549 --> 00:35:41.850
yet there's still a lot of value to

00:35:41.871 --> 00:35:44.673
be provided here and just connecting the

00:35:44.712 --> 00:35:47.095
dots between folks and opportunities.

00:35:47.335 --> 00:35:50.877
And when I met Tammy and she came

00:35:50.938 --> 00:35:53.540
on board eventually as a co-founder along

00:35:53.580 --> 00:35:54.861
with Luke Karbis,

00:35:56.022 --> 00:35:57.002
The focus shifted.

00:35:57.323 --> 00:35:58.743
She really opened my eyes to a lot

00:35:58.763 --> 00:36:03.667
of gaps in product thinking.

00:36:03.948 --> 00:36:05.629
You can become pretty dangerous when

00:36:05.669 --> 00:36:07.410
you're curious and interested in learning

00:36:07.450 --> 00:36:07.852
things.

00:36:08.551 --> 00:36:09.913
And you can go into something like, oh,

00:36:10.093 --> 00:36:11.274
I now understand this.

00:36:11.595 --> 00:36:12.375
I know this thing.

00:36:12.395 --> 00:36:13.756
But that doesn't mean you understand it.

00:36:14.718 --> 00:36:16.598
And in my work with Tammy...

00:36:17.740 --> 00:36:19.741
um yeah i got to it opened my

00:36:19.881 --> 00:36:21.183
eyes to a lot of things that i

00:36:21.243 --> 00:36:23.064
just didn't actually know that much about

00:36:23.144 --> 00:36:26.866
and the opportunities that i saw in um

00:36:26.926 --> 00:36:28.828
and that we saw together in combining the

00:36:28.908 --> 00:36:30.488
product thinking with more of like this

00:36:30.528 --> 00:36:32.830
business development thinking and we saw

00:36:32.870 --> 00:36:34.111
the real world impact that we were able

00:36:34.131 --> 00:36:36.332
to have with the members of the guild

00:36:36.852 --> 00:36:38.354
that we were working with and just getting

00:36:38.374 --> 00:36:40.895
folks connected with each other thoroughly

00:36:40.915 --> 00:36:44.218
enjoyed it and what ended up happening

00:36:44.437 --> 00:36:46.439
this was uh near the end of last

00:36:46.479 --> 00:36:46.740
year

00:36:48.160 --> 00:36:49.981
um i i knew some big changes were

00:36:50.020 --> 00:36:52.142
coming up um my wife and i were

00:36:52.343 --> 00:36:53.703
she was praying we knew we're gonna have

00:36:53.723 --> 00:36:56.064
a baby and gildenberg had gotten to a

00:36:56.104 --> 00:36:59.526
point where we were actually quite happy

00:36:59.566 --> 00:37:01.767
with its growth trajectory and tammy and i

00:37:01.787 --> 00:37:03.508
were starting to shift our focus to

00:37:04.008 --> 00:37:05.390
putting more energy investment into the

00:37:05.430 --> 00:37:06.830
product side of things which is always

00:37:06.850 --> 00:37:08.852
what we've been interested in and one of

00:37:08.892 --> 00:37:10.133
our members convecio

00:37:10.836 --> 00:37:12.278
we'd had the privilege of a front row

00:37:12.298 --> 00:37:13.580
seat to all of their growth.

00:37:14.180 --> 00:37:15.622
We've been working actively with them for

00:37:15.683 --> 00:37:17.606
over a year and saw some of the

00:37:17.687 --> 00:37:18.687
areas that they were focused on.

00:37:18.727 --> 00:37:20.591
We'd helped them with some acquisitions.

00:37:21.292 --> 00:37:22.874
And that just prompted thinking on our

00:37:22.913 --> 00:37:23.676
part where it's like, well,

00:37:24.692 --> 00:37:25.953
I wonder what if we were to work

00:37:25.973 --> 00:37:28.694
with them more directly and just become a

00:37:28.754 --> 00:37:29.473
part of the team?

00:37:29.513 --> 00:37:31.033
And we ended up deciding to do that

00:37:31.053 --> 00:37:31.895
in pretty short order,

00:37:32.495 --> 00:37:34.075
where it meant that Tammy was able to

00:37:34.095 --> 00:37:36.095
step into a role as chief product officer

00:37:36.134 --> 00:37:37.875
where there was entire like product teams

00:37:37.935 --> 00:37:39.875
and she could just jump into that and

00:37:39.915 --> 00:37:41.656
then do that thing full time that we

00:37:41.676 --> 00:37:43.676
were trying to earn our way into doing

00:37:43.897 --> 00:37:46.258
just a little bit because consulting work

00:37:46.278 --> 00:37:47.638
was the majority of what we were doing.

00:37:48.531 --> 00:37:49.053
And for me,

00:37:49.153 --> 00:37:50.674
it meant that I could focus business

00:37:50.694 --> 00:37:53.917
development energy on one company rather

00:37:53.937 --> 00:37:54.817
than spread.

00:37:55.037 --> 00:37:56.660
I was basically doing fractional business

00:37:56.680 --> 00:37:58.040
development work for just a bunch of

00:37:58.060 --> 00:37:58.401
different

00:37:59.109 --> 00:38:00.069
different companies in the space,

00:38:00.089 --> 00:38:01.049
which I thoroughly enjoyed.

00:38:01.729 --> 00:38:03.910
It was also something where knowing that I

00:38:03.930 --> 00:38:04.910
was about to have a baby,

00:38:04.930 --> 00:38:09.991
that I was also going back to college

00:38:10.071 --> 00:38:11.352
and going through all these other

00:38:11.392 --> 00:38:12.191
transitions.

00:38:13.171 --> 00:38:14.553
There was like a sanity check for me

00:38:14.573 --> 00:38:16.573
at one point where it's like,

00:38:16.953 --> 00:38:18.633
this feels a lot more sane to focus

00:38:18.673 --> 00:38:20.834
my energy and efforts on one company

00:38:20.854 --> 00:38:22.573
that's doing really interesting things in

00:38:22.593 --> 00:38:23.214
the space.

00:38:23.413 --> 00:38:25.354
And so that's what we've done.

00:38:25.374 --> 00:38:27.254
And I've been super happy with it.

00:38:27.435 --> 00:38:27.995
And it's only...

00:38:28.895 --> 00:38:30.495
Picked up the pace since then.

00:38:31.096 --> 00:38:32.837
With Guildenberg as a whole though,

00:38:35.339 --> 00:38:36.919
I'm really grateful for the time and

00:38:36.959 --> 00:38:37.600
experience.

00:38:37.821 --> 00:38:41.562
It gave me a chance to test in

00:38:41.622 --> 00:38:43.544
practice a lot of the ideas that I'd

00:38:43.584 --> 00:38:45.285
had prior and see.

00:38:46.185 --> 00:38:46.526
Also,

00:38:46.767 --> 00:38:47.906
I think the thing that remains the

00:38:47.926 --> 00:38:48.508
highlight for me,

00:38:49.790 --> 00:38:51.533
It's fantastic to be able to make a

00:38:51.573 --> 00:38:53.093
grounded connection where it's like you

00:38:53.133 --> 00:38:54.674
see an alignment of interest between two

00:38:54.734 --> 00:38:58.817
products or two organizations and then

00:38:59.299 --> 00:39:01.080
like help them find that aligned interest

00:39:01.100 --> 00:39:01.901
and then kind of just get out of

00:39:01.921 --> 00:39:03.401
the way and get to see some cool

00:39:03.441 --> 00:39:05.203
things happen as a result of that.

00:39:05.683 --> 00:39:07.464
That remains the highlight for me.

00:39:07.584 --> 00:39:08.345
It's fantastic.

00:39:08.386 --> 00:39:09.566
Like the people that we got to work

00:39:09.587 --> 00:39:11.928
with through the process and still get to,

00:39:11.968 --> 00:39:13.410
like a lot of what drew me to

00:39:13.430 --> 00:39:16.111
the opportunity at Convesio was to see the

00:39:16.131 --> 00:39:17.192
work that they were doing

00:39:18.734 --> 00:39:20.196
outside of the hosting space,

00:39:20.216 --> 00:39:21.680
which is where they started and focusing

00:39:21.720 --> 00:39:23.883
on commerce and payments and sort of all

00:39:23.903 --> 00:39:24.263
of that.

00:39:24.283 --> 00:39:25.645
So it's been quite the ride.

00:39:25.886 --> 00:39:27.288
I've thoroughly enjoyed it.

00:39:28.046 --> 00:39:29.406
Yeah, I really, I,

00:39:29.745 --> 00:39:32.346
I think that that networking component is

00:39:32.386 --> 00:39:33.346
really interesting.

00:39:33.747 --> 00:39:34.848
Um, like the, the,

00:39:35.308 --> 00:39:36.548
the part of it that I sort of

00:39:37.127 --> 00:39:39.528
saw was a lot of like, Hey, we,

00:39:39.649 --> 00:39:41.249
we know all these people and,

00:39:41.468 --> 00:39:43.649
and we're just kind of here to like

00:39:44.229 --> 00:39:46.229
connect this dot over here to this dot

00:39:46.270 --> 00:39:46.749
over here.

00:39:46.770 --> 00:39:47.970
And like you to go,

00:39:48.051 --> 00:39:49.930
you should have a conversation and.

00:39:50.390 --> 00:39:51.549
And it's very much like,

00:39:51.930 --> 00:39:53.491
I think about Courtney Robertson,

00:39:53.691 --> 00:39:56.872
what she does, the skill that she has,

00:39:57.892 --> 00:40:01.192
which is partially her job as a developer

00:40:01.252 --> 00:40:03.053
advocate, I think that's still her title,

00:40:03.653 --> 00:40:04.272
at GoDaddy,

00:40:04.312 --> 00:40:06.453
but really is more about who she is

00:40:06.573 --> 00:40:09.013
as a person and a member of the

00:40:09.093 --> 00:40:11.015
WordPress community is...

00:40:11.854 --> 00:40:15.256
like knowing the people and then knowing

00:40:15.756 --> 00:40:16.975
who to like,

00:40:17.377 --> 00:40:20.357
which strings to pull and tie together and

00:40:20.377 --> 00:40:20.798
say, okay,

00:40:20.837 --> 00:40:22.457
you two go in a room and talk

00:40:22.497 --> 00:40:24.479
about this and you two need to talk

00:40:24.519 --> 00:40:25.658
about this and like,

00:40:26.098 --> 00:40:28.160
kind of like almost like air traffic

00:40:28.200 --> 00:40:29.180
control sort of thing.

00:40:29.897 --> 00:40:31.319
Yeah, that's an important part of it.

00:40:31.540 --> 00:40:33.741
And I think the experience with Tammy also

00:40:33.921 --> 00:40:37.384
taught me where it's not,

00:40:38.265 --> 00:40:40.207
it's often not enough if you're thinking

00:40:40.267 --> 00:40:43.370
longterm to just like see an alignment of

00:40:43.430 --> 00:40:44.571
interest or make the connection.

00:40:45.071 --> 00:40:47.214
What I saw work incredibly well is like

00:40:47.354 --> 00:40:47.573
when,

00:40:47.714 --> 00:40:49.256
when Tammy would look at things through a

00:40:49.316 --> 00:40:51.058
product lens and we would look at this

00:40:51.078 --> 00:40:51.698
through the lens of like,

00:40:51.718 --> 00:40:53.319
what is their product level alignment

00:40:53.359 --> 00:40:54.680
between these two organizations?

00:40:55.430 --> 00:40:57.991
that gave a clear path for them to

00:40:58.091 --> 00:40:59.412
actually get something done.

00:41:00.071 --> 00:41:01.352
Because that was often the challenge,

00:41:01.392 --> 00:41:03.192
where it's like two parties or more would

00:41:03.212 --> 00:41:03.633
see like, oh,

00:41:03.653 --> 00:41:04.533
there is an opportunity here.

00:41:04.573 --> 00:41:06.894
What do we do about it?

00:41:07.254 --> 00:41:10.336
And for me, I think I knew intuitively,

00:41:10.356 --> 00:41:11.696
but it's taken a while to learn.

00:41:11.716 --> 00:41:13.256
It's like you can't just make something

00:41:13.337 --> 00:41:13.596
happen.

00:41:14.216 --> 00:41:16.738
The work is to find where the alignment

00:41:16.758 --> 00:41:17.278
of interest is.

00:41:17.298 --> 00:41:18.459
Sometimes it's unobvious.

00:41:18.578 --> 00:41:20.218
And I think looking at things through a

00:41:20.258 --> 00:41:21.140
product lens,

00:41:21.959 --> 00:41:23.240
uh, just led, um,

00:41:23.700 --> 00:41:25.881
led to a lot more practical, like, okay,

00:41:25.901 --> 00:41:26.821
here's the thing that you guys can

00:41:26.921 --> 00:41:27.642
actually do.

00:41:28.281 --> 00:41:29.861
And here's the place to start.

00:41:30.162 --> 00:41:33.363
And, uh, yeah, I think, um,

00:41:33.442 --> 00:41:35.223
I think that that's a bit a lot

00:41:35.283 --> 00:41:37.243
and that's led to me thinking even more

00:41:37.263 --> 00:41:39.064
holistically since then, where it's like,

00:41:39.404 --> 00:41:41.145
it's not just that you find the commercial

00:41:41.165 --> 00:41:41.524
alignment.

00:41:41.544 --> 00:41:43.006
Sometimes it's like also about cultural

00:41:43.026 --> 00:41:45.046
alignment between two organizations and

00:41:45.846 --> 00:41:46.667
how they're working and,

00:41:47.660 --> 00:41:48.921
And I think within the vein of like,

00:41:49.020 --> 00:41:50.562
and where we started with this like

00:41:50.582 --> 00:41:52.323
operating system and ecosystem thinking,

00:41:53.104 --> 00:41:55.767
what I especially enjoyed about it and

00:41:55.807 --> 00:41:56.366
remains,

00:41:56.607 --> 00:41:58.769
I think the key interest for me is

00:41:58.788 --> 00:42:01.330
the opportunity that any of us have to,

00:42:01.752 --> 00:42:05.093
to shape an ecosystem through making these

00:42:05.595 --> 00:42:08.596
informed connections and through like

00:42:08.857 --> 00:42:10.037
seeing an opportunity.

00:42:10.178 --> 00:42:11.138
And it's like some of the best things

00:42:11.158 --> 00:42:12.379
that I got to work on over the

00:42:12.419 --> 00:42:13.441
past couple of years were,

00:42:13.901 --> 00:42:15.303
when someone would seemingly out of the

00:42:15.343 --> 00:42:17.124
blue who knew what I was trying to

00:42:17.165 --> 00:42:17.765
do, it was like, hey,

00:42:17.785 --> 00:42:18.966
you should talk to so-and-so.

00:42:19.566 --> 00:42:21.227
And then that just opened up a big

00:42:21.287 --> 00:42:23.129
opportunity that wouldn't have been on my

00:42:23.169 --> 00:42:23.990
radar at all.

00:42:24.290 --> 00:42:27.593
And yeah, I've thoroughly enjoyed that.

00:42:28.232 --> 00:42:28.493
Yeah.

00:42:29.734 --> 00:42:31.455
So you mentioned WordCamp US.

00:42:31.915 --> 00:42:32.937
I assume that you're going.

00:42:33.317 --> 00:42:33.658
Yes.

00:42:34.098 --> 00:42:34.317
Yeah.

00:42:34.698 --> 00:42:35.218
I'm going.

00:42:35.419 --> 00:42:35.618
Yeah.

00:42:35.979 --> 00:42:38.241
What are you looking forward to in

00:42:38.301 --> 00:42:38.602
Phoenix?

00:42:39.625 --> 00:42:40.486
So Tammy and I are going to be

00:42:40.506 --> 00:42:41.348
doing a talk together.

00:42:41.729 --> 00:42:45.673
This will be our first time sharing the

00:42:45.692 --> 00:42:47.354
stage, which I'm pretty excited about.

00:42:47.374 --> 00:42:48.555
I'm a little bit nervous.

00:42:48.575 --> 00:42:49.676
I'm going to have to up my game.

00:42:50.573 --> 00:42:56.254
um and uh yeah tough competition looking

00:42:56.294 --> 00:43:00.756
forward to um uh the folks that you

00:43:00.776 --> 00:43:02.776
know it's great to see um folks that

00:43:02.796 --> 00:43:04.897
we are already know yourself included and

00:43:04.937 --> 00:43:07.778
meeting new folks um and uh experiencing

00:43:07.798 --> 00:43:09.178
the heat i can't i can't wait

00:43:10.959 --> 00:43:14.522
have you have you not experienced the uh

00:43:14.622 --> 00:43:17.725
phoenix summer before oh i have actually i

00:43:17.805 --> 00:43:19.528
i my grandfather had a lawn care business

00:43:19.567 --> 00:43:21.189
and i've been in phoenix in the summer

00:43:21.649 --> 00:43:24.272
yeah i mean i i i definitely like

00:43:24.372 --> 00:43:26.634
i've definitely been uh through arizona a

00:43:26.714 --> 00:43:28.917
few times in the middle of summer uh

00:43:28.977 --> 00:43:31.098
and also utah is not too far off

00:43:31.399 --> 00:43:33.401
um although we don't get quite as as

00:43:33.881 --> 00:43:36.062
hot but the thing the thing that i

00:43:36.102 --> 00:43:37.424
say like when i when i went to

00:43:37.444 --> 00:43:39.024
press comp this last time and i was

00:43:39.044 --> 00:43:40.944
in the cab uh and it had been

00:43:41.106 --> 00:43:42.446
it had been hot it was like it

00:43:42.466 --> 00:43:43.906
was like ninety degrees i think when i

00:43:43.966 --> 00:43:47.368
landed um and that was rare for what

00:43:47.569 --> 00:43:50.189
march i think it was ah um uh

00:43:50.810 --> 00:43:53.551
so that was that was uncommon um but

00:43:53.591 --> 00:43:55.191
we were talking about about the heat and

00:43:55.232 --> 00:43:55.832
i'm like yeah

00:43:56.720 --> 00:43:58.442
I know, because I've been here,

00:43:59.002 --> 00:44:01.044
the thing that I think about when I'm

00:44:01.165 --> 00:44:06.069
in Arizona in the peak of summer is

00:44:06.109 --> 00:44:08.790
that it feels like the sun is actively

00:44:08.830 --> 00:44:09.631
trying to kill me.

00:44:10.671 --> 00:44:14.153
like it's it's not like anywhere else

00:44:14.173 --> 00:44:16.613
chris let's bake them it's anywhere else

00:44:16.653 --> 00:44:18.634
it's like oh it's hot but like no

00:44:18.734 --> 00:44:21.877
it's actually like actively painful like

00:44:21.917 --> 00:44:24.118
to be to spend an extended period of

00:44:24.158 --> 00:44:25.799
time but then you know you just don't

00:44:25.839 --> 00:44:27.859
do that is is what so what you

00:44:27.999 --> 00:44:28.279
you learn

00:44:28.979 --> 00:44:30.000
Even though it's a bit of a joke,

00:44:31.162 --> 00:44:33.064
it is also serious that they take air

00:44:33.084 --> 00:44:34.104
conditioning seriously.

00:44:34.384 --> 00:44:35.225
Yeah.

00:44:35.245 --> 00:44:36.307
Well, you would have to, right?

00:44:36.327 --> 00:44:38.089
You have to if it's going to be

00:44:38.109 --> 00:44:39.169
a bit habitable.

00:44:39.950 --> 00:44:41.091
Yes, I'm looking forward to it, though.

00:44:41.962 --> 00:44:44.386
Yeah, no, I, I, I'm definitely, I'm,

00:44:44.546 --> 00:44:45.106
I'm down.

00:44:45.307 --> 00:44:46.567
I'm looking forward to it as well.

00:44:46.948 --> 00:44:49.049
Um, it'll be my first, uh,

00:44:49.270 --> 00:44:51.173
flagship WordCamp that I'll be speaking

00:44:51.272 --> 00:44:51.412
at.

00:44:52.073 --> 00:44:54.375
Um, so I'm pretty excited about that and,

00:44:54.595 --> 00:44:56.497
uh, yeah, looking forward to,

00:44:56.517 --> 00:44:57.698
to reconnecting with all the folks.

00:44:57.758 --> 00:45:00.462
Cause yeah, that's the, that's, that's,

00:45:00.482 --> 00:45:01.183
that's what it's about.

00:45:02.144 --> 00:45:02.964
That is what it's about.

00:45:04.587 --> 00:45:06.288
Well, thank you, Jonathan, for coming on.

00:45:06.328 --> 00:45:09.069
Thank you all who may be listening to

00:45:09.109 --> 00:45:10.631
this now or in the future.

00:45:11.111 --> 00:45:13.173
Where can people find you online should

00:45:13.212 --> 00:45:14.332
they desire to?

00:45:14.912 --> 00:45:15.593
Yeah,

00:45:15.633 --> 00:45:18.856
jonathanwold.com is my personal website.

00:45:19.055 --> 00:45:20.977
I've been having more fun working on it

00:45:21.017 --> 00:45:21.457
lately.

00:45:22.057 --> 00:45:23.017
I've got a blog that...

00:45:24.024 --> 00:45:25.665
is not seeing some love in a while

00:45:25.705 --> 00:45:27.705
but it's it's on my mind and my

00:45:27.745 --> 00:45:30.328
contact information is all there and um

00:45:30.408 --> 00:45:32.569
i'm also like on the wordpress slack and

00:45:32.808 --> 00:45:35.910
uh yeah um you also have a podcast

00:45:35.970 --> 00:45:40.073
yeah you use this this uh amazing uh

00:45:40.093 --> 00:45:43.095
radio voice uh relaxing soothing radio

00:45:43.134 --> 00:45:45.917
voice uh for for the power for the

00:45:45.937 --> 00:45:47.618
powers of good with your your podcast

00:45:48.678 --> 00:45:49.959
Mostly, mostly for good.

00:45:50.120 --> 00:45:50.339
Yes.

00:45:50.700 --> 00:45:52.200
I actually have a couple of podcasts,

00:45:52.261 --> 00:45:55.283
but the one that's, yes,

00:45:55.323 --> 00:45:56.243
so I have Crossword,

00:45:56.703 --> 00:45:58.145
which is a podcast I do with Luke

00:45:58.165 --> 00:46:00.466
Karbis on the WordPress ecosystem.

00:46:00.627 --> 00:46:03.209
And occasionally we have some,

00:46:03.249 --> 00:46:04.450
we always have fun and occasionally we

00:46:04.470 --> 00:46:07.812
have some good output from that as well.

00:46:07.953 --> 00:46:08.712
Only occasionally.

00:46:09.033 --> 00:46:09.674
Only occasionally.

00:46:09.694 --> 00:46:09.913
Yeah.

00:46:11.379 --> 00:46:12.359
Well, thanks again, Jonathan,

00:46:12.379 --> 00:46:12.899
for coming on.

00:46:13.680 --> 00:46:14.000
Thank you,

00:46:14.040 --> 00:46:15.381
everyone who are watching and listening to

00:46:15.401 --> 00:46:16.142
this in the future.

00:46:16.942 --> 00:46:18.383
And yeah, we'll see you on the internet.

00:46:18.765 --> 00:46:19.584
Thanks for having me, Chris.

00:46:19.645 --> 00:46:20.345
I'll see you in a few weeks.