WEBVTT

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Hey, welcome to Community & Code.

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I'm your host, Chris Reynolds.

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My guest today has, like me,

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been in WordPress for something like

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fifteen or twenty years,

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and somewhere along the way he decided

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that the fix for being stuck in one

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CMS bubble his whole career was to start

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a conference about all of them.

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Maciek Palmowski works in security,

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specifically at PatchTac,

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which means

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He spent this year watching something

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unsettling happen.

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The amount of time between a WordPress

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vulnerability getting discovered

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and someone actually exploiting it in the

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wild has gone from weeks to days to

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about five hours,

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according to last year's data.

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And we know that to be even faster

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now with the recent WP to shell exploit

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in WordPress core.

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AI assisted research is finding things

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human researchers never would have caught.

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We also get into why WordPress's plugin

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ecosystem is even more fractured than the

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repository numbers make it look like,

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the vibe-coding hangover nobody's talking

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about yet,

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and why he thinks WordPress being this big

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might actually be the thing holding it

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back.

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This is Maciek Pomalski on Community &

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Code.

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Welcome to Community & Code,

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the podcast where we talk to the human

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beings behind the commits.

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And today,

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the human being that I am with is

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Maciek Palmowski.

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Maciek has been in the WordPress community

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for a really long time.

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You're currently working at PatchTac,

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I think, is where I recognize your name.

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And you are, I think, fairly recently,

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I think that's safe to say,

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one of the organizers of CMSConf.

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Welcome to the show, Maciek,

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and tell us about yourself.

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So apart from the things that you already

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mentioned, so yeah,

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I do work at Patchstack and I decided

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that, yeah,

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I will organize another conference because

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why not?

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Why not?

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Yeah,

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it's surely not an overwhelming amount of

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time and energy.

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And it's not that every time after I

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organize a conference,

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I say that I will never, ever,

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ever do it again.

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So...

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So yeah.

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Yeah.

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And apart from it,

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I'm a huge coffee lover.

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So when you sent me some questions about

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what can we talk about,

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and I mentioned not about pottery, later,

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I realized what we could do a bit

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about it,

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because I do like my coffee served in

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a very nice cup.

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So

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why does pottery get singled out why is

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that the one thing like anything but not

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pottery you know i mean it it was

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like the one of the most abstract thing

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that came to my head because i i

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really don't have a clue about it and

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i have some friends that know their stuff

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around it and i was always listening with

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this face like so it's probably the face

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that most people do when i started to

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talk about my

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interest in different parts of AI and when

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you start going deeper and deeper and you

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understand it entirely and then you see

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that some of your friends are perfect yeah

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well tell me about your uh your sort

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of journey into tech like what what

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brought you what made you interested in

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tech to the begin with and and what

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sort of things did you originally sort of

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like gravitate toward

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so uh my story in tech started very

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very early because and it was all all

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thanks to my dad because um he managed

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to buy a septic spectrum computer which

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was kind of you know the clove of

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the of timex and um i was around

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three back then and my dad tried to

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understand how it works

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so by saying i was three it means

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it was thirty seven years ago so it

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was a long time ago and um so

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yeah my dad tried to really understand how

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everything works and from the stories i

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heard i always like to sit on his

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lap and kind of look what is happening

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i didn't have too much to say back

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then because i was just a small kid

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so from all the parents story i was

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just looking and drooling so this was kind

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of my thing

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but it turns out that um it kind

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of worked it kind of worked because later

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on like every kid right first the games

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right so I was playing a lot of

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this on this Spectrum computer then it was

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the time for I think we had first

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the Amiga five hundred with one

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megabyte of RAM, not the half.

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It was so yeah, it was like,

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the higher.

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And at some point, I,

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apart from kind of playing, for example,

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sensible world of soccer,

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which was really amazing,

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I still think FIFA is nothing compared to

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it.

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I started to wonder yet how it works,

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how it works.

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And

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also was a bit adventurous in trying to

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understand something.

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So I still remember the first time when

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we tried to kind of connect

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a first CD reader to a computer.

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And yeah, back then it was like, whoa,

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or a zip drive or a lot of

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things.

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So we started,

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we tried a lot of things.

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We experimented, of course, later,

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the PC era came in.

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So kind of reinstalling Windows ninety

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five each month was kind of a thing.

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And kind of so on.

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So and at some point I kind of

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I'm

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When I went to primary school,

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I already knew I will be doing something

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in IT.

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I just didn't know what.

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At some point,

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I thought I will end up more into

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managing servers and everything.

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I even have some Cisco certificates.

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But in the end,

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I went more towards development.

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And at some point,

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I realized that while writing code is

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cool,

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I think I did hit my limit.

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Because I was always less interested in

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specializing in just one thing.

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But I always prefer to kind of understand

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the whole picture.

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So someone would say, Hey,

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you will be a project manager.

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But in a way, at some point,

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you remember when there was this moment

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when everyone was hiring dev rels and

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everything.

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That's when I kind of realized that that

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is kind of a job for me.

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Because it turns out that developers that

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can speak to others are

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pretty rare and it's really problematic to

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find those.

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And kind of my career went more into

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this route,

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kind of being this bridge between very

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often technical and less technical teams.

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For example, right now,

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I have this title of a growth engineer,

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which kind of means that I am the

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technical person in the marketing slash

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growth department and

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when oh is that when they have some

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means yes be a growth engineer and it's

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really fun because they always have a lot

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of great ideas but often they just don't

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know how to make them real and that's

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my thing and right now with ai it's

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it's very simple especially to

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To try those ideas because now like making

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a prototype is very often like a one

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day work tops and we can see how

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it works and that's the thing that I

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can really kind of connect those less

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technical people with more technical

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things and yeah.

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That's kind of my journey.

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I want to talk about CMS conf and

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like the idea behind that.

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And I want to talk about AI, but,

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uh, and I want to talk about, uh,

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AI,

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particularly in the context of patch

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stack, where you currently work.

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Cause I think that's a really interesting

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thing, but before we get that, that, um,

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you're looking at your history,

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you have a lot of sort of specifically

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WordPress, WordPress focused experience.

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Uh,

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and I'm wondering what drew you into

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WordPress specifically?

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what other sort of CMSs were you or

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have you looked at and played with and

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why WordPress has been a theme that has

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carried you through, you know, a while.

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Okay,

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so the story with WordPress is pretty

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funny because right now a lot of people

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will say that WordPress documentation

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sucks.

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That's kind of the thing.

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But the true is the thing that kind

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of drew me to.

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Yeah,

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that's the thing that drew me to it

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too.

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Yeah.

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It was the documentation.

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Because when I started,

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the documentation was great.

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And I kind of loved their approach on

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how themes were built.

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It kind of clicked.

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It was a thing.

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Because I remember I tried.

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jumla i think i tried drupal i tried

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some other less popular cms's and even few

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i think typo tree and so on um

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but there was always some friction it

00:10:17.911 --> 00:10:20.034
didn't click that well and with wordpress

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it was like bang it works and it

00:10:21.895 --> 00:10:22.175
was like

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And so I often say that I kind

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of came for the code,

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stayed for the community,

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because kind of the biggest turning point

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was discovering WordCamps.

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Exactly.

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And what is interesting about this sticker

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that I have that I just showed on

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camera, so if you're listening only,

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then it's a sticker that says come for

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the code, stay for the community,

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which is exactly what Maciek just said.

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That came from a DrupalCon.

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That was,

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I went to DrupalCon in twenty twenty five,

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I guess.

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It wasn't this last year,

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but the year before in Atlanta.

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Maybe it's the year before that, actually.

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Twenty twenty four.

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And anyway,

00:11:07.607 --> 00:11:08.789
one of the first things I saw was

00:11:08.809 --> 00:11:12.390
the sticker that spoke to me about like

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why I've been in the WordPress community

00:11:15.192 --> 00:11:15.992
for twenty years.

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And but it was at a DrupalCon.

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So obviously it's the thing that Drupal

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people feel.

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So like.

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That was like the beginning of just this

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realization that like it doesn't matter.

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And that's why I'm really interested in

00:11:30.020 --> 00:11:32.401
CMSConf because it doesn't really matter

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what thing you're working on.

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We're all basically the same and we all

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have the same like, I mean,

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the Drupal community is very, very,

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very similar to the WordPress community.

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Oh, it is.

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To the point that I wish that we

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would teach each other more.

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I mean, to be honest,

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I still remember I was once at PHP

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UK in London,

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and I remember there was one talk about

00:11:59.053 --> 00:11:59.673
Drupal,

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and it was about a thing called Drupalism.

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So all the weird things that happened in

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Drupal history,

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all the weird stuff that were invented

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along.

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And I sat there, I listened to it,

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and I was like, huh.

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it sounds exactly like wordpress story but

00:12:17.775 --> 00:12:21.498
with a bit different dates and different

00:12:22.160 --> 00:12:27.924
names for stuff we were each invented but

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we made so many same mistakes about for

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example reinventing the wheel and whatever

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i was like if i would

00:12:36.927 --> 00:12:39.909
take the stock like word by word and

00:12:39.929 --> 00:12:43.050
just swap Drupal to WordPress and some

00:12:43.251 --> 00:12:46.933
minor things just to match the ecosystem,

00:12:48.254 --> 00:12:51.015
they would fit like totally.

00:12:51.195 --> 00:12:52.996
And that's kind of the thing about...

00:12:54.900 --> 00:12:56.641
a lot of those communities are really

00:12:56.722 --> 00:12:57.823
similar to each other.

00:12:58.843 --> 00:13:01.164
We very often had the same problems.

00:13:01.265 --> 00:13:03.425
We solved some things and so on and

00:13:03.445 --> 00:13:03.687
so on.

00:13:04.727 --> 00:13:09.209
And very often we don't know about each

00:13:09.390 --> 00:13:11.530
other and the fact that, for example,

00:13:12.452 --> 00:13:14.553
maybe someone already bumped into this

00:13:14.612 --> 00:13:15.033
problem.

00:13:15.092 --> 00:13:16.895
Maybe they already learned that maybe

00:13:18.368 --> 00:13:21.549
trying to solve it won't work or maybe

00:13:21.750 --> 00:13:24.150
you can do it a bit differently but

00:13:24.270 --> 00:13:27.631
sadly a lot of those communities are kind

00:13:27.751 --> 00:13:31.011
of hidden in silos or bubbles or whatever

00:13:31.072 --> 00:13:33.352
you call them and very often there is

00:13:33.572 --> 00:13:37.092
a bit of this tribalism my cms is

00:13:37.153 --> 00:13:39.154
better than yours no it's not yeah

00:13:40.842 --> 00:13:43.704
yeah that's that's that that's the thing

00:13:43.725 --> 00:13:47.227
and um well and that was something yeah

00:13:47.247 --> 00:13:48.549
that was actually something that mike demo

00:13:48.769 --> 00:13:51.451
asked uh matt uh the other day at

00:13:51.491 --> 00:13:56.034
work camp us uh during the the fireside

00:13:56.134 --> 00:13:59.435
chat thing um which was like how do

00:13:59.457 --> 00:14:02.738
we how do we sort of combat this

00:14:02.799 --> 00:14:05.040
tribalism and matt's response which i'm

00:14:05.081 --> 00:14:07.121
not super satisfied with was well we

00:14:07.141 --> 00:14:08.222
should just invite them here

00:14:10.323 --> 00:14:12.363
But I don't know that inviting them to

00:14:12.463 --> 00:14:14.584
a WordPress event is the solution.

00:14:15.846 --> 00:14:16.226
No.

00:14:16.687 --> 00:14:16.906
I mean,

00:14:19.107 --> 00:14:22.530
one of the problems that kind of WordPress

00:14:22.569 --> 00:14:24.971
has is how to put it.

00:14:25.911 --> 00:14:29.573
It doesn't have the best reputation apart

00:14:29.613 --> 00:14:30.353
from its bubble.

00:14:31.194 --> 00:14:33.736
And when I at some point started really

00:14:33.775 --> 00:14:37.757
traveling to other conferences and very

00:14:37.778 --> 00:14:38.858
often when I said, yeah,

00:14:40.171 --> 00:14:41.212
I'm from the WordPress world.

00:14:41.972 --> 00:14:46.093
And you could really often say this face.

00:14:46.873 --> 00:14:48.154
Yeah, I don't know.

00:14:48.534 --> 00:14:49.213
We're sorry.

00:14:49.233 --> 00:14:51.454
Are you sure you understand what we are

00:14:51.495 --> 00:14:51.954
talking here?

00:14:52.194 --> 00:14:54.155
Yeah, things like this.

00:14:54.596 --> 00:14:56.756
But when you start talking about it and

00:14:56.795 --> 00:14:58.376
kind of, for example,

00:14:58.837 --> 00:15:02.078
so many people still don't know how big

00:15:02.237 --> 00:15:02.897
WordPress is.

00:15:05.175 --> 00:15:06.976
and it's not about the fact that yeah

00:15:07.015 --> 00:15:08.496
we love to brag about those for the

00:15:08.536 --> 00:15:12.438
for forty percent but it's it is true

00:15:12.857 --> 00:15:19.358
it's huge i mean we can like we

00:15:19.399 --> 00:15:21.919
can't say that like wordpress is the

00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:25.701
number one cms you go for because it's

00:15:25.761 --> 00:15:27.381
that popular and this is kind of this

00:15:28.756 --> 00:15:31.036
this cycle because people will try next to

00:15:31.097 --> 00:15:33.578
use WordPress because they already used it

00:15:33.618 --> 00:15:35.338
or they know someone who used it and

00:15:35.379 --> 00:15:36.079
so on and so on.

00:15:36.120 --> 00:15:37.900
So yeah, WordPress is really popular.

00:15:37.961 --> 00:15:38.961
And like,

00:15:39.020 --> 00:15:40.702
and still a lot of communities are looking

00:15:40.761 --> 00:15:43.222
at it like, yeah, sorry,

00:15:43.583 --> 00:15:44.524
sorry that you're there.

00:15:44.563 --> 00:15:45.584
But yeah, no, that's,

00:15:45.885 --> 00:15:46.745
that's not a problem.

00:15:47.586 --> 00:15:51.347
And I often also had the talk about

00:15:51.708 --> 00:15:52.568
WordPress security.

00:15:53.269 --> 00:15:57.751
Because when we look at it, I mean,

00:15:59.410 --> 00:16:01.251
whole topic i mean we could spend like

00:16:01.291 --> 00:16:04.212
a whole a whole day talking about the

00:16:05.033 --> 00:16:07.112
is the word security good or bad because

00:16:07.193 --> 00:16:09.193
it's a very broad topic but the truth

00:16:09.254 --> 00:16:12.794
is that there is no other cms that

00:16:12.834 --> 00:16:17.195
has a problem of handling that many

00:16:17.236 --> 00:16:21.918
plugins of having this forty percent of

00:16:21.958 --> 00:16:25.458
the internet uh on his hand so

00:16:27.017 --> 00:16:29.579
it's a totally different scale yeah i mean

00:16:29.679 --> 00:16:31.581
if if i remember from from from the

00:16:31.621 --> 00:16:34.884
stats uh there are only a few cms's

00:16:34.924 --> 00:16:38.347
that crossed the i think the five percent

00:16:38.526 --> 00:16:41.649
or one percent something like this so and

00:16:41.728 --> 00:16:43.410
one of them is shopify yeah i know

00:16:43.429 --> 00:16:45.432
the largest the largest competitor is is

00:16:45.472 --> 00:16:47.674
like shopify and and i don't know if

00:16:47.693 --> 00:16:50.096
squarespace is still up there but um but

00:16:50.116 --> 00:16:51.175
yeah the the

00:16:52.505 --> 00:16:53.625
Joomla, Drupal,

00:16:53.664 --> 00:16:57.106
the other actual open source CMSs have

00:16:57.406 --> 00:16:58.347
dropped way down.

00:16:59.107 --> 00:17:02.627
I think Drupal is maybe at like two

00:17:02.668 --> 00:17:04.009
percent or something like that.

00:17:04.049 --> 00:17:04.708
Something like this.

00:17:04.909 --> 00:17:05.228
Yeah.

00:17:05.348 --> 00:17:08.250
And I still remember the moment when

00:17:08.829 --> 00:17:09.709
WordPress, Joomla,

00:17:09.730 --> 00:17:11.150
and Drupal were kind of sharing the

00:17:11.190 --> 00:17:11.491
market.

00:17:12.692 --> 00:17:12.911
Yeah.

00:17:13.011 --> 00:17:13.712
Once upon a time.

00:17:13.852 --> 00:17:14.752
Yeah.

00:17:14.793 --> 00:17:15.873
Is, is the,

00:17:16.414 --> 00:17:19.695
this sort of like getting people to, to,

00:17:19.856 --> 00:17:20.476
to see,

00:17:21.156 --> 00:17:23.717
to see things outside their own bubble,

00:17:23.837 --> 00:17:26.380
the sort of, uh, idea behind, uh,

00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:28.040
CMSConf talk about CMSConf.

00:17:29.300 --> 00:17:32.602
I mean, the idea behind it was, um,

00:17:32.622 --> 00:17:35.424
because it was like a kind of a

00:17:35.544 --> 00:17:38.207
natural progression because we just, uh,

00:17:38.227 --> 00:17:40.267
wrapped up WordCamp Gdynia.

00:17:41.896 --> 00:17:46.219
last year and it was the first bilingual

00:17:46.260 --> 00:17:50.063
polish word camp that happened and it

00:17:50.122 --> 00:17:52.505
worked really well a lot of people were

00:17:53.846 --> 00:17:55.886
were very happy a lot of them saw

00:17:55.947 --> 00:17:57.708
poland for the first time so in general

00:17:57.848 --> 00:18:01.070
it was it was a huge success and

00:18:01.731 --> 00:18:05.895
we had this last last chat we were

00:18:05.934 --> 00:18:08.356
just wrapping up everything make sure that

00:18:08.396 --> 00:18:08.516
we

00:18:10.949 --> 00:18:13.310
that we had all the formalities done and

00:18:13.390 --> 00:18:13.831
everything.

00:18:15.212 --> 00:18:16.553
And after I said, Look,

00:18:17.472 --> 00:18:18.272
I have an idea.

00:18:19.414 --> 00:18:20.635
It's maybe a bit crazy.

00:18:21.334 --> 00:18:22.576
And if you think it's stupid,

00:18:22.675 --> 00:18:24.356
just the I mean,

00:18:24.395 --> 00:18:26.997
we can drop it and maybe think about

00:18:27.158 --> 00:18:28.397
just the next edition.

00:18:29.458 --> 00:18:31.339
But what if we will

00:18:33.702 --> 00:18:37.024
do something on our own without the

00:18:37.044 --> 00:18:39.064
foundation support obviously because it's

00:18:39.285 --> 00:18:42.146
on our own uh but we'll invite other

00:18:42.206 --> 00:18:44.786
cms's because we we already kind of

00:18:44.927 --> 00:18:48.669
decided that by doing it billing well we

00:18:48.728 --> 00:18:52.890
kind of made this step forward in bringing

00:18:53.091 --> 00:18:55.792
new people outside of outside from poland

00:18:56.292 --> 00:18:59.153
which was a great so let's do another

00:18:59.214 --> 00:18:59.554
step

00:19:00.700 --> 00:19:03.044
Now let's invite people from different

00:19:03.083 --> 00:19:04.906
communities, from different technologies.

00:19:05.226 --> 00:19:08.370
And I won't lie,

00:19:08.410 --> 00:19:10.332
there kind of was a part of me

00:19:10.352 --> 00:19:11.452
that thought, OK,

00:19:11.734 --> 00:19:14.115
and now I hope that everyone say, OK,

00:19:14.217 --> 00:19:15.998
no, maybe let's skip.

00:19:16.198 --> 00:19:16.880
It's too much.

00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:19.743
But everyone said, yeah, let's do it.

00:19:19.763 --> 00:19:21.004
And I was like, ha ha.

00:19:22.228 --> 00:19:22.448
Okay,

00:19:22.468 --> 00:19:24.870
so this is how all your dreams of

00:19:25.110 --> 00:19:27.271
not making another conference just went

00:19:27.311 --> 00:19:27.851
through the window.

00:19:28.291 --> 00:19:32.333
But I'm really happy that it happened

00:19:32.352 --> 00:19:36.975
because we had quite a lot of discussions

00:19:37.035 --> 00:19:38.795
with different people from different

00:19:38.815 --> 00:19:39.375
communities.

00:19:41.256 --> 00:19:44.277
And a lot of people feel that, yeah,

00:19:45.138 --> 00:19:47.218
we definitely need something like this.

00:19:49.502 --> 00:19:50.682
I was also very surprised that,

00:19:50.702 --> 00:19:51.162
for example,

00:19:51.303 --> 00:19:54.524
a lot of smaller CMSs are kind of

00:19:54.744 --> 00:19:58.025
missing a place to kind of show up.

00:19:59.384 --> 00:20:01.426
Because if you are big enough,

00:20:01.506 --> 00:20:04.105
so you are WordPress, you are Drupal,

00:20:04.146 --> 00:20:06.427
and you have already kind of the bigger

00:20:06.447 --> 00:20:09.648
community, your events and everything,

00:20:11.519 --> 00:20:12.100
it's easier.

00:20:12.300 --> 00:20:13.561
But if you are smaller,

00:20:14.740 --> 00:20:17.803
and especially if your community is really

00:20:17.862 --> 00:20:19.682
spread around the world,

00:20:19.763 --> 00:20:22.884
or it's really difficult to organize an

00:20:23.265 --> 00:20:28.427
event.

00:20:28.487 --> 00:20:32.307
But having the space that kind of invites

00:20:32.348 --> 00:20:37.249
you and you can kind of show up

00:20:37.290 --> 00:20:40.211
with with with your CMS to show others

00:20:40.391 --> 00:20:41.092
what you can do.

00:20:42.243 --> 00:20:42.622
Yeah.

00:20:43.304 --> 00:20:48.067
And we kind of have like, for example,

00:20:48.267 --> 00:20:51.650
one really small Polish CMS just kind of

00:20:51.730 --> 00:20:53.872
launched, I think it was called MD CMS.

00:20:55.234 --> 00:20:56.255
They were really open.

00:20:56.314 --> 00:20:57.677
And they said, Yeah, for us,

00:20:57.697 --> 00:20:59.077
it's like a great opportunity.

00:20:59.098 --> 00:21:03.180
Yeah, yeah,

00:21:03.200 --> 00:21:06.544
I really hope that that that will work.

00:21:06.824 --> 00:21:08.406
Because, like I said,

00:21:10.579 --> 00:21:14.041
we really need to have more spaces to

00:21:14.180 --> 00:21:17.323
exchange those ideas together.

00:21:17.362 --> 00:21:21.726
Because, again, especially with AI,

00:21:21.746 --> 00:21:23.286
because, okay,

00:21:23.407 --> 00:21:24.747
I get it that few years ago,

00:21:24.767 --> 00:21:26.448
when you had to kind of learn everything

00:21:26.548 --> 00:21:27.350
from scratch,

00:21:28.990 --> 00:21:34.093
being a specialist in something was a bit

00:21:34.153 --> 00:21:34.915
more important.

00:21:35.874 --> 00:21:36.515
And right now,

00:21:37.660 --> 00:21:42.102
the entry barrier is so much simpler to

00:21:42.182 --> 00:21:44.323
kind of start using whatever tool you want

00:21:46.304 --> 00:21:49.345
that you that I think that more people

00:21:49.365 --> 00:21:52.467
should kind of open their their minds and

00:21:52.507 --> 00:21:54.909
kind of change the approach a bit from

00:21:55.508 --> 00:21:58.631
Yeah, I always use WordPress,

00:21:58.670 --> 00:22:01.092
like Drupal slash whatever you want to

00:22:01.131 --> 00:22:01.292
say.

00:22:02.305 --> 00:22:04.888
And I will do everything I will add

00:22:05.008 --> 00:22:07.771
gasoline of workarounds to make it work

00:22:08.071 --> 00:22:08.691
for you.

00:22:09.573 --> 00:22:10.714
Instead of Yeah,

00:22:10.734 --> 00:22:11.774
there is a tool for this.

00:22:11.834 --> 00:22:13.736
Maybe just use it.

00:22:13.756 --> 00:22:13.835
Yeah.

00:22:16.523 --> 00:22:17.023
Yeah, well, I mean,

00:22:17.163 --> 00:22:19.465
even to your point earlier about the

00:22:20.426 --> 00:22:22.467
Drupalisms talk that you were talking

00:22:22.487 --> 00:22:22.708
about,

00:22:24.708 --> 00:22:28.532
I feel like because we are in our

00:22:29.252 --> 00:22:31.153
tribal sort of silos,

00:22:32.634 --> 00:22:34.555
we all are sort of making the same

00:22:34.595 --> 00:22:36.277
mistake and reinventing the wheel without

00:22:37.037 --> 00:22:38.558
looking at what other communities are

00:22:38.579 --> 00:22:38.840
doing.

00:22:38.880 --> 00:22:40.541
And if there was a space,

00:22:41.240 --> 00:22:43.402
when there is a space, to...

00:22:46.265 --> 00:22:49.046
collaborate then like we learn a lot of

00:22:49.086 --> 00:22:50.848
stuff like I there's there's things that

00:22:50.948 --> 00:22:54.449
that that I took away from from DrupalCon

00:22:54.590 --> 00:22:57.272
that I wish the WordPress community had

00:22:57.332 --> 00:23:00.214
and there's things that I was able to

00:23:00.494 --> 00:23:03.676
communicate uh like risks to the Drupal

00:23:03.716 --> 00:23:06.316
community that like things that I see in

00:23:06.336 --> 00:23:09.879
the WordPress community um like uh you

00:23:09.899 --> 00:23:12.920
know the the funding model for Drupal for

00:23:13.081 --> 00:23:14.221
uh contributions like

00:23:15.121 --> 00:23:17.102
Drupal cons cost a lot of money.

00:23:17.141 --> 00:23:17.983
They're like eight hundred,

00:23:18.043 --> 00:23:19.083
nine hundred dollars a ticket.

00:23:19.122 --> 00:23:19.304
Right.

00:23:20.563 --> 00:23:22.706
And the reason part of the reason why

00:23:22.845 --> 00:23:23.885
they are so expensive,

00:23:23.906 --> 00:23:25.207
besides the fact that like tech

00:23:25.227 --> 00:23:27.208
conferences outside of the WordPress

00:23:27.287 --> 00:23:28.528
ecosystem are expensive,

00:23:28.849 --> 00:23:30.449
which a lot of us in the WordPress

00:23:30.529 --> 00:23:32.291
ecosystem who have never gone to a tech

00:23:32.311 --> 00:23:34.213
conference don't realize like that this is

00:23:34.473 --> 00:23:35.213
that's normal.

00:23:35.533 --> 00:23:36.034
And this is.

00:23:36.054 --> 00:23:38.294
Yes, it was a huge shock for me,

00:23:38.334 --> 00:23:38.415
too.

00:23:38.554 --> 00:23:39.835
For the first time, I was like,

00:23:40.055 --> 00:23:40.978
Jesus,

00:23:41.040 --> 00:23:43.066
how it's possible that the conference cost

00:23:43.086 --> 00:23:43.467
that much?

00:23:43.507 --> 00:23:43.748
I mean,

00:23:43.969 --> 00:23:46.036
I went to a WordCamp Europe which costed

00:23:47.526 --> 00:23:48.207
Yep.

00:23:48.286 --> 00:23:48.608
Yeah.

00:23:48.628 --> 00:23:52.169
Uh, yeah, but, but that money then goes,

00:23:52.288 --> 00:23:55.169
it actually pays the Drupal foundation and

00:23:55.188 --> 00:23:57.009
then it gives them funds that they can

00:23:57.150 --> 00:24:00.390
allocate to sponsor development on

00:24:00.450 --> 00:24:02.450
projects that the, uh,

00:24:02.971 --> 00:24:05.471
the foundation and the membership, uh,

00:24:05.512 --> 00:24:08.932
think is, uh, worthy to, to, to create.

00:24:08.973 --> 00:24:11.274
So like, that's how like the AI, uh,

00:24:11.694 --> 00:24:14.918
modules and AI tools for Drupal was

00:24:14.958 --> 00:24:16.660
developed was because of sponsored

00:24:17.040 --> 00:24:18.921
development where they were able to like

00:24:18.961 --> 00:24:20.945
find an agency or a couple agencies to

00:24:20.985 --> 00:24:22.385
work with to like build this stuff out.

00:24:22.506 --> 00:24:24.629
And I think that's really valuable.

00:24:25.189 --> 00:24:28.253
And the other thing that I sort of

00:24:28.293 --> 00:24:32.117
took away from Drupal was like because

00:24:33.192 --> 00:24:36.215
there's no marketplace ecosystem of

00:24:36.455 --> 00:24:41.017
premium plugins in that context.

00:24:41.037 --> 00:24:43.540
There isn't nearly as much competition.

00:24:43.959 --> 00:24:46.441
In the WordPress ecosystem,

00:24:46.502 --> 00:24:48.622
if I have a plugin or an idea

00:24:48.642 --> 00:24:49.162
for a plugin,

00:24:50.123 --> 00:24:51.765
I'm less likely to tell you about it

00:24:52.104 --> 00:24:53.686
because at some point I might want to

00:24:53.726 --> 00:24:55.727
make that plugin premium and get paid for

00:24:55.786 --> 00:24:55.887
it.

00:24:56.467 --> 00:24:57.267
In Drupal,

00:24:58.227 --> 00:25:00.089
if we have two different modules,

00:25:00.129 --> 00:25:01.790
but they do very similar things,

00:25:01.810 --> 00:25:03.331
they're both SEO modules or whatever,

00:25:04.391 --> 00:25:06.151
then we might be more likely to

00:25:06.191 --> 00:25:08.333
collaborate to make one or the other of

00:25:08.353 --> 00:25:08.893
them better.

00:25:09.313 --> 00:25:12.955
and combine their skills to make the

00:25:13.015 --> 00:25:15.775
better canonical Drupal module for that

00:25:15.794 --> 00:25:17.736
thing.

00:25:17.775 --> 00:25:22.256
There's a lot more of this communal sense

00:25:22.276 --> 00:25:23.276
that I miss,

00:25:23.336 --> 00:25:24.697
and I really would like that in the

00:25:24.717 --> 00:25:26.997
WordPress ecosystem, but on the same side,

00:25:27.178 --> 00:25:28.317
they're not able to sell stuff,

00:25:28.958 --> 00:25:30.938
which is what is a lot of people's

00:25:30.978 --> 00:25:31.498
livelihoods.

00:25:31.778 --> 00:25:33.798
There's different things,

00:25:34.479 --> 00:25:36.300
and especially as Drupal is trying to

00:25:36.640 --> 00:25:39.341
uh edge their way into creating like a

00:25:39.400 --> 00:25:41.121
marketplace like one of the things that i

00:25:41.141 --> 00:25:44.263
was saying is like was that like my

00:25:44.323 --> 00:25:47.123
observation was you know you guys are have

00:25:47.165 --> 00:25:49.605
a really good thing with like being sort

00:25:49.646 --> 00:25:51.406
of having this sort of sense of community

00:25:51.466 --> 00:25:53.887
and collaboration or whatever don't like i

00:25:53.907 --> 00:25:57.149
am hoping that having a marketplace

00:25:57.288 --> 00:25:59.590
doesn't doesn't kill that because that's

00:26:00.249 --> 00:26:00.831
really cool.

00:26:00.890 --> 00:26:02.172
It's a really cool thing that you have

00:26:02.194 --> 00:26:03.875
that we don't have as much.

00:26:03.916 --> 00:26:05.057
I mean, we do, but we don't.

00:26:05.077 --> 00:26:06.320
We're everybody's sort of frenemies

00:26:06.621 --> 00:26:07.942
because we're all sort of we're in

00:26:08.003 --> 00:26:09.044
competition with each other,

00:26:09.104 --> 00:26:10.286
even as we're working alongside it,

00:26:10.306 --> 00:26:11.728
which is, you know, it's good,

00:26:11.768 --> 00:26:12.189
but also

00:26:13.540 --> 00:26:15.660
It means that we've got this like totally

00:26:15.700 --> 00:26:17.940
fractured ecosystem of like a million

00:26:17.960 --> 00:26:19.601
different options for every single thing

00:26:19.660 --> 00:26:22.762
under the sun rather than like a couple

00:26:22.822 --> 00:26:23.602
really good things,

00:26:23.641 --> 00:26:25.243
which is even a thing that Matt was

00:26:25.263 --> 00:26:26.763
talking about the other day as well.

00:26:27.023 --> 00:26:29.343
It's like there's a lot of stuff.

00:26:31.063 --> 00:26:31.663
Yeah, that is true.

00:26:32.324 --> 00:26:34.025
And more stuff isn't necessarily better.

00:26:36.475 --> 00:26:39.398
I mean for me it was very surprising

00:26:39.497 --> 00:26:43.322
when we were once doing bug bounty and

00:26:43.441 --> 00:26:48.566
a patch stack and we were trying to

00:26:51.028 --> 00:26:53.091
kind of find as many vulnerabilities

00:26:53.131 --> 00:26:55.213
during one month we even kind of changed

00:26:55.233 --> 00:26:56.454
the rules a bit to make it

00:26:59.731 --> 00:27:02.853
So we could clean as much from the

00:27:02.933 --> 00:27:03.994
repository as possible.

00:27:05.735 --> 00:27:08.676
And one of the things that really

00:27:08.717 --> 00:27:12.338
surprised me back then was that at some

00:27:12.398 --> 00:27:14.718
point all the reporting started to go

00:27:14.758 --> 00:27:15.380
crazy.

00:27:16.080 --> 00:27:21.862
And it started to go crazy because all

00:27:21.902 --> 00:27:24.704
the researchers finally downloaded the

00:27:24.764 --> 00:27:26.564
missing part of the repository on their

00:27:26.624 --> 00:27:27.044
drives.

00:27:27.864 --> 00:27:28.805
Because before it,

00:27:28.926 --> 00:27:30.147
we had the rule that you had to

00:27:30.187 --> 00:27:33.349
have like a thousand plus installs or

00:27:33.369 --> 00:27:35.611
something like this.

00:27:35.631 --> 00:27:37.292
But it's the WordPress ecosystem.

00:27:37.312 --> 00:27:39.774
We are talking about forty percent of the

00:27:39.813 --> 00:27:40.294
market.

00:27:41.374 --> 00:27:43.135
Having one thousand installs should be

00:27:43.176 --> 00:27:45.017
like like this, right?

00:27:46.639 --> 00:27:50.322
No, it turns out that really.

00:27:52.983 --> 00:27:53.143
Now,

00:27:53.204 --> 00:27:54.864
I certainly don't remember the numbers,

00:27:54.904 --> 00:27:56.406
but I was really shocked.

00:27:57.234 --> 00:28:01.879
that while WordPress has this huge

00:28:02.018 --> 00:28:03.720
repository,

00:28:04.341 --> 00:28:06.843
most of the plugins aren't even installed

00:28:06.944 --> 00:28:09.006
on those thousands websites.

00:28:09.627 --> 00:28:10.547
And let's be honest,

00:28:10.567 --> 00:28:13.771
that's nothing compared to the ecosystem.

00:28:15.412 --> 00:28:18.575
So I was really surprised by it.

00:28:20.979 --> 00:28:22.822
I remember that back then we also did

00:28:22.901 --> 00:28:26.904
quite a lot of checks for the repository,

00:28:26.945 --> 00:28:27.525
for example.

00:28:28.226 --> 00:28:28.506
Also,

00:28:30.046 --> 00:28:33.130
there are really not that many companies

00:28:33.169 --> 00:28:35.051
that have more than ten plugins in the

00:28:35.091 --> 00:28:35.651
repository.

00:28:42.410 --> 00:28:44.933
repository on the outside when you look at

00:28:44.974 --> 00:28:49.198
the number of plugins it's huge but when

00:28:49.217 --> 00:28:51.900
you start going deeper and deeper yeah you

00:28:51.939 --> 00:28:53.901
see it's really fractured and there are

00:28:53.961 --> 00:28:57.305
really a lot of things that maybe it

00:28:57.325 --> 00:28:59.267
would be better if i know some of

00:28:59.307 --> 00:29:00.869
them would be for example in core and

00:29:00.889 --> 00:29:03.631
the plugins we could just remove

00:29:05.233 --> 00:29:06.333
And that's, for example,

00:29:06.393 --> 00:29:10.497
a thing that I do like about,

00:29:10.918 --> 00:29:12.839
there is this Laravel CMS called

00:29:12.919 --> 00:29:13.439
StataMate.

00:29:14.821 --> 00:29:17.463
This is one of my favorites.

00:29:18.563 --> 00:29:21.246
And they also have a bit different model

00:29:22.766 --> 00:29:24.429
when it comes to kind of funding.

00:29:24.548 --> 00:29:27.710
Because, for example, with them, yeah,

00:29:28.092 --> 00:29:29.172
just pay for it.

00:29:29.392 --> 00:29:30.534
Just pay for a license.

00:29:31.323 --> 00:29:32.423
And you can do whatever you want.

00:29:32.444 --> 00:29:32.683
I mean,

00:29:32.704 --> 00:29:34.765
there is a free tier for one person.

00:29:35.124 --> 00:29:37.144
But in general, I mean,

00:29:37.165 --> 00:29:38.585
their approach is very transparent.

00:29:38.686 --> 00:29:40.765
And it kind of makes sense.

00:29:41.486 --> 00:29:44.806
But what's interesting is that Statamic,

00:29:44.826 --> 00:29:45.246
for example,

00:29:45.346 --> 00:29:48.708
out of the box has a few important

00:29:48.787 --> 00:29:49.428
features.

00:29:51.027 --> 00:29:52.488
Then when we look at WordPress,

00:29:52.569 --> 00:29:56.369
those are pretty important plugins that

00:29:56.409 --> 00:29:57.749
really earn a lot of money.

00:29:57.769 --> 00:29:58.910
So for example, Forms.

00:29:59.794 --> 00:30:00.715
For example,

00:30:02.216 --> 00:30:04.517
creating additional fields or modeling

00:30:04.557 --> 00:30:05.477
content, right?

00:30:07.880 --> 00:30:09.301
So those two things.

00:30:09.522 --> 00:30:13.624
And they are built in into Statamic out

00:30:13.665 --> 00:30:14.124
of the box.

00:30:14.205 --> 00:30:17.888
And the thing that I really like when

00:30:17.948 --> 00:30:19.468
I started using it for the first time

00:30:19.509 --> 00:30:22.231
was that I get it,

00:30:22.272 --> 00:30:23.392
that WordPress has this kind of,

00:30:25.474 --> 00:30:26.735
I kind of like to say that it's

00:30:26.755 --> 00:30:28.396
kind of more of a framework rather than

00:30:28.437 --> 00:30:28.937
a CMS.

00:30:30.285 --> 00:30:33.286
Because you do have to add stuff to

00:30:33.346 --> 00:30:34.467
make it working.

00:30:34.567 --> 00:30:36.807
And every time when I had one of

00:30:36.848 --> 00:30:38.968
my security talks and I mentioned that,

00:30:39.028 --> 00:30:39.188
yeah,

00:30:39.208 --> 00:30:42.950
that plugins are the biggest problem from

00:30:43.111 --> 00:30:44.230
the perspective of security.

00:30:44.871 --> 00:30:45.691
And I asked, OK,

00:30:45.852 --> 00:30:47.671
how many of you have a WordPress without

00:30:47.731 --> 00:30:48.333
any plugin?

00:30:48.833 --> 00:30:50.253
And during all the talks I did,

00:30:50.293 --> 00:30:51.694
there was just one guy,

00:30:52.113 --> 00:30:52.994
one guy that said,

00:30:53.173 --> 00:30:54.114
I don't use any plugins.

00:30:54.134 --> 00:30:57.055
I was like, OK, that's a surprise.

00:30:58.986 --> 00:31:00.487
i don't even know how that works i

00:31:00.506 --> 00:31:01.668
don't even know how you can have a

00:31:01.708 --> 00:31:04.290
wordpress site without any plugins i'm i'm

00:31:04.390 --> 00:31:07.971
also i'm i'm still a bit shocked although

00:31:08.012 --> 00:31:10.293
maybe he just put a lot of things

00:31:10.333 --> 00:31:12.834
into functions php i mean yeah i guess

00:31:13.015 --> 00:31:15.075
i i so formally that is that is

00:31:15.096 --> 00:31:16.898
the only thing i could think of yeah

00:31:16.938 --> 00:31:21.500
but it's formally it's okay yeah but okay

00:31:21.680 --> 00:31:23.461
he has it and um

00:31:25.448 --> 00:31:28.769
And the thing with plugins is that very

00:31:28.810 --> 00:31:32.230
often they have their own UI.

00:31:33.951 --> 00:31:37.713
And it's very easy to recognize where

00:31:38.033 --> 00:31:40.554
WordPress ends and plugin begins.

00:31:41.574 --> 00:31:44.656
And for example, ACF,

00:31:44.916 --> 00:31:45.976
one of my favorite plugins.

00:31:47.076 --> 00:31:49.157
I use it very heavily.

00:31:50.577 --> 00:31:51.757
I liked it always.

00:31:51.817 --> 00:31:54.139
And it's a really great plugin.

00:31:55.939 --> 00:31:58.381
But Statomic has the same built in.

00:31:58.961 --> 00:32:01.583
And when it becomes a natural part of

00:32:01.704 --> 00:32:01.843
it,

00:32:03.304 --> 00:32:06.707
it's such a different feeling of working

00:32:06.746 --> 00:32:07.106
with it.

00:32:07.266 --> 00:32:11.130
When you have exactly the same options,

00:32:11.189 --> 00:32:14.292
but you feel that it's a part of

00:32:14.312 --> 00:32:15.733
the CMS, not an add-on.

00:32:17.734 --> 00:32:19.735
And it's a really great thing.

00:32:20.946 --> 00:32:23.067
don't know maybe it's really time that

00:32:23.629 --> 00:32:25.390
maybe wordpress should add a bit more

00:32:25.430 --> 00:32:28.274
stuff inside of the core not sure or

00:32:28.313 --> 00:32:33.077
maybe just build a better ui ux system

00:32:33.118 --> 00:32:34.540
and kind of more enforce it

00:32:35.602 --> 00:32:35.901
Yeah, well,

00:32:35.921 --> 00:32:42.046
that dissonance between one experience and

00:32:42.147 --> 00:32:43.628
feeling like you're inside of WordPress

00:32:43.688 --> 00:32:44.968
and then feeling like you're inside of a

00:32:45.048 --> 00:32:45.748
different experience,

00:32:45.808 --> 00:32:47.410
that carries into Gutenberg, too.

00:32:47.450 --> 00:32:50.672
That's one of my biggest complaints about

00:32:50.773 --> 00:32:52.014
Gutenberg and the site editors.

00:32:52.073 --> 00:32:53.134
It's great, it's fine,

00:32:53.195 --> 00:32:54.115
and it's built into core,

00:32:54.496 --> 00:32:56.958
but it feels so much different than the

00:32:57.037 --> 00:32:58.037
rest of WordPress.

00:32:59.099 --> 00:33:01.720
I get that rebuilding the entire admin in

00:33:01.760 --> 00:33:02.721
React is

00:33:03.242 --> 00:33:05.323
not going to be a simple task,

00:33:05.343 --> 00:33:06.264
and it's going to be something that's

00:33:06.284 --> 00:33:07.745
going to take many, many years to do,

00:33:07.765 --> 00:33:08.686
and then maybe at the end of it,

00:33:08.706 --> 00:33:09.166
we'll be like,

00:33:09.226 --> 00:33:10.826
React probably wasn't the thing we should

00:33:10.846 --> 00:33:11.848
have used next,

00:33:11.888 --> 00:33:12.727
or we should have used Astro,

00:33:12.767 --> 00:33:14.570
and then we'll rebuild the entire thing

00:33:14.590 --> 00:33:15.990
again in some other JavaScript framework.

00:33:16.051 --> 00:33:17.592
And by the time we're done with that,

00:33:17.612 --> 00:33:18.151
there'll be a new one.

00:33:18.191 --> 00:33:19.273
But besides all that,

00:33:19.392 --> 00:33:22.675
it's the experience of it's almost jarring

00:33:23.294 --> 00:33:25.576
to go from the posts list,

00:33:25.637 --> 00:33:28.198
which looks more or less the same as

00:33:28.238 --> 00:33:29.699
it did for the last...

00:33:30.279 --> 00:33:32.281
I don't know, fifteen or so years,

00:33:32.341 --> 00:33:34.042
maybe since inception, really,

00:33:34.602 --> 00:33:37.642
and then go into the Gutenberg editor

00:33:37.682 --> 00:33:39.603
where it's like a completely different

00:33:39.643 --> 00:33:41.624
experience and actually behaves different,

00:33:41.665 --> 00:33:41.965
too.

00:33:42.925 --> 00:33:43.246
Yes.

00:33:43.625 --> 00:33:45.246
I mean, for example,

00:33:45.667 --> 00:33:47.467
and this was something that I was I

00:33:47.627 --> 00:33:51.248
really had to solve lately because we had

00:33:51.268 --> 00:33:56.210
this one option to publish our because we

00:33:56.930 --> 00:33:57.871
were on the headless WordPress.

00:33:58.846 --> 00:34:00.108
So to publish the content,

00:34:01.308 --> 00:34:03.029
so to kind of trigger some webhook.

00:34:04.190 --> 00:34:07.513
And we had an option in the left

00:34:07.573 --> 00:34:07.932
bar.

00:34:09.194 --> 00:34:11.015
But the moment you go to a post,

00:34:11.615 --> 00:34:15.717
it disappears.

00:34:15.737 --> 00:34:17.038
So yeah, that's the thing.

00:34:17.079 --> 00:34:19.041
So I had to add an extra module

00:34:19.140 --> 00:34:21.621
inside of the kind of right Gutenberg

00:34:21.661 --> 00:34:23.403
sidebar so you can do it.

00:34:23.444 --> 00:34:26.926
And it was like, it's...

00:34:28.588 --> 00:34:31.650
The moment when WordPress is having a

00:34:31.709 --> 00:34:34.151
different experience than WordPress,

00:34:35.733 --> 00:34:36.612
that's really problematic.

00:34:37.092 --> 00:34:40.815
Although I remember there were some drafts

00:34:40.855 --> 00:34:42.657
and we can already see it in some

00:34:42.737 --> 00:34:48.480
parts how probably the new version of the

00:34:48.680 --> 00:34:50.602
admin will look like because we can kind

00:34:50.621 --> 00:34:52.283
of see it in the theme editor and

00:34:52.783 --> 00:34:53.464
so on and so on.

00:34:55.353 --> 00:34:58.916
I can imagine then it will take years

00:34:59.056 --> 00:35:01.418
for everyone especially who build their

00:35:01.717 --> 00:35:04.779
custom ui's kind of migrate again and

00:35:04.820 --> 00:35:10.123
again so uh and yeah some some can

00:35:10.183 --> 00:35:13.805
say yeah but it's just ui no biggie

00:35:14.006 --> 00:35:15.948
oh it's it's a huge biggie it's a

00:35:16.007 --> 00:35:17.528
huge biggie and it's uh

00:35:18.841 --> 00:35:21.842
That is also a big problem from many

00:35:21.901 --> 00:35:22.461
perspectives.

00:35:22.562 --> 00:35:24.522
I mean, even accessibility.

00:35:26.323 --> 00:35:30.103
Because that's kind of the thing we let's

00:35:30.123 --> 00:35:33.883
call it the old admin was really good

00:35:33.923 --> 00:35:36.384
when it comes to accessibility.

00:35:36.644 --> 00:35:39.265
Then Gutenberg came and there was a long

00:35:39.325 --> 00:35:41.265
list of problems from the accessibility

00:35:41.365 --> 00:35:41.785
point of view.

00:35:42.305 --> 00:35:45.427
So now imagine that we decide, okay,

00:35:46.403 --> 00:35:47.543
Let's make a total switch.

00:35:47.983 --> 00:35:51.785
And so here we go again.

00:35:51.805 --> 00:35:53.505
We will have to sort a lot of

00:35:54.865 --> 00:35:56.686
problems we will introduce again.

00:35:57.307 --> 00:36:00.688
So on the other hand, yeah,

00:36:01.247 --> 00:36:01.648
I get it.

00:36:02.347 --> 00:36:09.970
Managing a CMS that half of the world

00:36:10.010 --> 00:36:12.950
depends on, it's pretty problematic.

00:36:13.070 --> 00:36:14.731
I mean, it's...

00:36:16.233 --> 00:36:18.313
it's a whale it's a whale so it's

00:36:19.293 --> 00:36:21.374
it's for sure not something that you can

00:36:21.434 --> 00:36:24.834
say okay let's make a switch let's go

00:36:25.334 --> 00:36:28.155
you know it doesn't happen this way so

00:36:29.916 --> 00:36:32.155
and that was always kind of my small

00:36:32.215 --> 00:36:34.517
wish that i think it would be better

00:36:34.537 --> 00:36:38.097
for wordpress if it got a bit less

00:36:38.137 --> 00:36:42.077
popular so it could became a bit more

00:36:42.418 --> 00:36:45.218
agile a bit more crazy a bit more

00:36:48.744 --> 00:36:52.005
easier to experiment with because right

00:36:52.044 --> 00:36:54.106
now those forty percent I mean it's a

00:36:54.146 --> 00:36:58.088
huge burden yeah and I wouldn't like to

00:36:58.128 --> 00:36:59.769
be the part of the release team that

00:36:59.849 --> 00:37:04.771
I never was that will have to introduce

00:37:04.791 --> 00:37:06.791
some critical changes and some breaking

00:37:06.811 --> 00:37:12.213
changes and especially with the current

00:37:12.235 --> 00:37:14.175
funding model when you are doing it as

00:37:14.255 --> 00:37:15.155
a volunteer so

00:37:17.260 --> 00:37:18.019
Yeah, yeah.

00:37:19.001 --> 00:37:19.780
Yeah, no, for sure.

00:37:21.682 --> 00:37:22.061
Yeah,

00:37:22.202 --> 00:37:24.943
I've always the frustrating thing for me

00:37:24.963 --> 00:37:26.443
has always been that, like,

00:37:26.564 --> 00:37:29.564
it's this huge has this huge market share

00:37:29.584 --> 00:37:30.385
of the Internet,

00:37:31.005 --> 00:37:33.787
but it's not like there's no one that

00:37:33.867 --> 00:37:38.948
is driving development from, like,

00:37:39.389 --> 00:37:40.329
the perspective of, like,

00:37:40.369 --> 00:37:41.889
treating it like a product that is

00:37:41.990 --> 00:37:42.651
actually doing

00:37:43.539 --> 00:37:46.481
like real sort of product research like

00:37:46.941 --> 00:37:50.061
what actual products do you know like it's

00:37:50.122 --> 00:37:53.503
just it's just here's some stuff that that

00:37:53.923 --> 00:37:57.483
i think maybe is good um and and

00:37:57.523 --> 00:37:59.983
the i in this sentence is whoever happens

00:38:00.003 --> 00:38:02.104
to be the the release lead or you

00:38:02.144 --> 00:38:04.365
know product project leadership whatever

00:38:04.465 --> 00:38:06.746
like and and that's just

00:38:08.110 --> 00:38:10.532
I mean, it's gotten us this far and,

00:38:10.934 --> 00:38:13.517
you know, power to, you know,

00:38:14.238 --> 00:38:15.941
the powers that be that that got us

00:38:15.961 --> 00:38:16.380
this far.

00:38:17.182 --> 00:38:20.106
But like it's that's when you're when

00:38:20.126 --> 00:38:23.150
you're this massive of a whale.

00:38:25.615 --> 00:38:28.979
Maybe it's good to figure out, like, okay,

00:38:29.019 --> 00:38:31.682
what are the things that are actually the

00:38:31.722 --> 00:38:37.086
pain points in the largest pie slice of

00:38:37.287 --> 00:38:39.128
this usership?

00:38:40.630 --> 00:38:40.829
Yeah,

00:38:40.889 --> 00:38:42.932
I still think that we still have a

00:38:43.112 --> 00:38:46.195
bit of a problem with

00:38:47.566 --> 00:38:49.389
deciding what we are.

00:38:50.650 --> 00:38:51.490
Because,

00:38:52.992 --> 00:38:55.334
and this is in a way really fascinating

00:38:55.374 --> 00:39:00.458
that WordPress is a CMS that will be

00:39:00.477 --> 00:39:02.659
described as a great fit for a blogger,

00:39:02.700 --> 00:39:05.001
for an agency, for an enterprise,

00:39:05.441 --> 00:39:07.403
how it's possible at the same time.

00:39:10.863 --> 00:39:14.925
It kind of seems a bit impossible to

00:39:16.026 --> 00:39:18.708
make it work for everyone.

00:39:21.568 --> 00:39:23.410
Again, looking at the market share,

00:39:23.470 --> 00:39:27.952
it seems that it somehow works this way.

00:39:28.052 --> 00:39:31.695
But the truth is that it's really

00:39:31.776 --> 00:39:35.278
impossible to kind of make everyone happy.

00:39:39.017 --> 00:39:40.079
this is kind of the thing that you

00:39:40.119 --> 00:39:46.043
mentioned about that may be because maybe

00:39:46.064 --> 00:39:47.746
we should treat it a bit more like

00:39:47.765 --> 00:39:51.289
a product but maybe on the other hand

00:39:51.349 --> 00:39:53.450
maybe that's also a thing that kind of

00:39:53.530 --> 00:39:55.831
brought people to wordpress it kind of

00:39:55.932 --> 00:39:57.753
wasn't the product right it wasn't the

00:39:57.814 --> 00:39:58.655
product it was

00:40:00.702 --> 00:40:03.305
was this cool cmx but on the other

00:40:03.325 --> 00:40:05.827
hand it's it's also a bit different

00:40:05.887 --> 00:40:07.809
perspective because when we for example

00:40:07.869 --> 00:40:09.831
meet at those word camps and everything

00:40:11.733 --> 00:40:14.396
most of those people are already

00:40:16.519 --> 00:40:17.119
interested

00:40:17.657 --> 00:40:17.798
in it.

00:40:17.977 --> 00:40:18.878
And they are like,

00:40:19.898 --> 00:40:22.459
at a different level of being interested

00:40:22.479 --> 00:40:23.119
in the CMS.

00:40:23.479 --> 00:40:26.220
But probably the truth is that I don't

00:40:26.240 --> 00:40:27.881
know, fifty, seventy percent.

00:40:28.142 --> 00:40:29.561
Not sure there are no numbers.

00:40:30.342 --> 00:40:31.162
Kind of don't care.

00:40:31.282 --> 00:40:34.224
It's it's a software that they put data

00:40:34.304 --> 00:40:36.544
in and it shows to the world or

00:40:36.664 --> 00:40:39.546
it's an ecommerce product and we don't

00:40:39.586 --> 00:40:40.765
care if

00:40:41.182 --> 00:40:43.903
Tomorrow we would switch to Spotify to

00:40:43.943 --> 00:40:44.465
Shopify.

00:40:45.485 --> 00:40:46.506
That's also OK.

00:40:46.566 --> 00:40:50.909
We just have to learn when the when

00:40:50.930 --> 00:40:53.092
the some of the things are and how

00:40:53.131 --> 00:40:53.532
it works.

00:40:53.572 --> 00:40:55.514
But that's it.

00:40:55.534 --> 00:41:00.398
There are no feelings towards which in a

00:41:00.418 --> 00:41:04.862
way is also healthy because, to be honest,

00:41:04.881 --> 00:41:07.003
it's just a piece of code.

00:41:09.505 --> 00:41:14.108
Talk about your view of how AI is

00:41:14.389 --> 00:41:14.709
changing.

00:41:14.729 --> 00:41:15.990
I know that you have some thoughts about

00:41:16.030 --> 00:41:17.751
this, but I also, like,

00:41:18.151 --> 00:41:19.932
I was actually having conversations with

00:41:19.952 --> 00:41:21.954
John Blackburn from the WordPress security

00:41:21.974 --> 00:41:22.555
team this week,

00:41:23.836 --> 00:41:27.157
talking about really sort of the way that

00:41:27.378 --> 00:41:29.519
AI, and in particular frontier models,

00:41:29.720 --> 00:41:30.280
are able,

00:41:30.539 --> 00:41:31.021
or are

00:41:31.640 --> 00:41:32.441
not just able,

00:41:32.481 --> 00:41:37.945
but actively changing what security looks

00:41:38.005 --> 00:41:40.447
like in open source because they're able

00:41:40.468 --> 00:41:42.909
to find all these vulnerabilities in a way

00:41:42.930 --> 00:41:44.430
that human beings aren't able to do.

00:41:44.450 --> 00:41:45.972
And obviously that is a thing that is

00:41:46.032 --> 00:41:47.693
relevant to you in your role at

00:41:47.753 --> 00:41:48.273
Patchstack,

00:41:48.293 --> 00:41:50.434
which is sort of what Patchstack does too.

00:41:51.396 --> 00:41:52.336
So like...

00:41:52.997 --> 00:41:55.238
like there's the security thing and that's

00:41:55.258 --> 00:41:56.519
the reason why we've gotten a bunch of

00:41:56.559 --> 00:41:59.282
security patches in the last month or so.

00:42:00.282 --> 00:42:03.025
But also like just in general as a

00:42:03.084 --> 00:42:05.166
tool, you know,

00:42:05.206 --> 00:42:09.229
you mentioned maybe we don't need to

00:42:09.671 --> 00:42:11.771
necessarily rally around a single CMS

00:42:11.811 --> 00:42:14.494
because we have AI that can that can

00:42:14.554 --> 00:42:19.097
build front ends for anything.

00:42:19.137 --> 00:42:22.340
So overall, I

00:42:22.898 --> 00:42:25.421
do have a bit of a love-hate relation

00:42:25.461 --> 00:42:26.862
with AI.

00:42:27.142 --> 00:42:31.005
Because on one hand,

00:42:31.184 --> 00:42:35.688
I really am amazed how many things it

00:42:35.727 --> 00:42:38.570
can do and how quickly.

00:42:42.046 --> 00:42:44.807
Like, I think two days ago,

00:42:45.006 --> 00:42:46.807
I even had this small experiment because I

00:42:46.907 --> 00:42:50.630
spotted there is one pattern and few

00:42:50.669 --> 00:42:52.811
companies are using one types of the

00:42:52.851 --> 00:42:53.030
logos.

00:42:53.070 --> 00:42:55.671
It's like a curvy thing on the bright.

00:42:56.418 --> 00:43:00.722
color whatever and i decided i have too

00:43:00.742 --> 00:43:03.764
much tokens to burn so so i built

00:43:04.365 --> 00:43:06.706
a logo generator that allows you to kind

00:43:06.747 --> 00:43:08.708
of build those curves and i was like

00:43:08.847 --> 00:43:11.930
okay cool and it was fun and it

00:43:11.990 --> 00:43:14.613
did a lot of things that i wouldn't

00:43:14.633 --> 00:43:16.615
know how to do in javascript about kind

00:43:16.655 --> 00:43:19.316
of uh all those curves and kind of

00:43:19.537 --> 00:43:21.798
tensions whatever it's something that i

00:43:22.358 --> 00:43:24.660
they never fully understood why using

00:43:24.700 --> 00:43:25.162
curves in

00:43:25.481 --> 00:43:27.305
Photoshop or Illustrator.

00:43:28.646 --> 00:43:30.269
And here I would have to implement it.

00:43:31.209 --> 00:43:32.872
Cloud managed to do it in like ten

00:43:32.892 --> 00:43:35.055
minutes altogether.

00:43:35.936 --> 00:43:37.398
So that's the amazing part.

00:43:38.376 --> 00:43:39.137
On the other hand,

00:43:39.497 --> 00:43:46.503
AI kind of became one of these universal

00:43:46.543 --> 00:43:46.903
ways.

00:43:47.543 --> 00:43:50.066
OK, we can fire people because of AI.

00:43:50.987 --> 00:43:53.608
Or a lot of people got so lazy

00:43:53.668 --> 00:43:55.729
that they really stopped thinking.

00:43:56.010 --> 00:44:00.834
I kind of love this term that they

00:44:00.854 --> 00:44:04.037
are kind of a protein interface to cloud

00:44:04.097 --> 00:44:05.838
or chat GPT or whatever.

00:44:07.226 --> 00:44:11.048
And this approach without any

00:44:11.088 --> 00:44:12.108
verification.

00:44:13.329 --> 00:44:15.151
It's, it's just bad.

00:44:15.251 --> 00:44:18.273
I mean, every day is because yeah,

00:44:18.494 --> 00:44:20.595
every day, I'm using a lot of it.

00:44:21.945 --> 00:44:25.088
um and i see how often it makes

00:44:25.128 --> 00:44:29.253
mistakes doesn't entirely understands you

00:44:30.494 --> 00:44:33.876
or kind of misinterpreted or decide to add

00:44:33.976 --> 00:44:37.720
something extra that wasn't needed at all

00:44:37.780 --> 00:44:44.526
so so ai for sure it's not something

00:44:44.566 --> 00:44:47.068
that kind of relieves us from thinking i

00:44:47.088 --> 00:44:47.650
think it's even

00:44:49.213 --> 00:44:51.465
much more difficult because

00:44:55.222 --> 00:44:55.822
Previously,

00:44:55.943 --> 00:44:59.325
we were more in this focus zone, right?

00:44:59.345 --> 00:45:00.425
We were writing code,

00:45:00.445 --> 00:45:03.267
so we were automatically thinking about

00:45:03.367 --> 00:45:03.487
it.

00:45:04.208 --> 00:45:06.488
And now we kind of changed our approach,

00:45:06.548 --> 00:45:06.769
right?

00:45:06.789 --> 00:45:08.909
Because it's, hey, Claude, build me this.

00:45:09.811 --> 00:45:12.392
So you are not doing anything.

00:45:13.191 --> 00:45:13.892
And suddenly,

00:45:13.952 --> 00:45:15.733
you have to switch to the focus mode

00:45:15.854 --> 00:45:19.316
to make sure that whatever it produced is

00:45:19.376 --> 00:45:19.856
correct.

00:45:21.583 --> 00:45:23.764
And the urge of just pressing, yeah, yeah,

00:45:23.843 --> 00:45:26.403
cool, merge, or pull request, or whatever.

00:45:27.084 --> 00:45:28.005
No one cares, right?

00:45:28.184 --> 00:45:28.764
No, that's it.

00:45:28.805 --> 00:45:30.684
So this part is really difficult.

00:45:31.445 --> 00:45:35.546
And we also saw it because AI changed

00:45:36.606 --> 00:45:39.447
so much in the security field.

00:45:40.628 --> 00:45:43.968
And it also kind of surprised us with

00:45:44.267 --> 00:45:44.909
how quickly.

00:45:46.229 --> 00:45:46.909
Because at Patchstack,

00:45:46.929 --> 00:45:49.709
we really had a lot of conversations about

00:45:49.749 --> 00:45:49.950
that.

00:45:50.976 --> 00:45:52.517
yeah, definitely AI will,

00:45:53.157 --> 00:45:55.979
will change how the researchers work.

00:45:58.260 --> 00:45:59.941
Probably will,

00:46:00.021 --> 00:46:02.222
at some point get flooded with a lot

00:46:02.262 --> 00:46:03.822
of reports, a lot of those things.

00:46:05.162 --> 00:46:07.304
But we were sure we have much more

00:46:07.363 --> 00:46:07.644
time.

00:46:09.505 --> 00:46:09.885
We didn't.

00:46:11.365 --> 00:46:11.905
We didn't.

00:46:12.026 --> 00:46:15.988
And I mean, we started, for example,

00:46:16.068 --> 00:46:18.048
changing the rules of our bug bounty

00:46:19.845 --> 00:46:20.385
if I remember,

00:46:20.425 --> 00:46:21.367
at the start of the year.

00:46:22.526 --> 00:46:25.847
And we really made it much more difficult

00:46:26.787 --> 00:46:27.488
to submit.

00:46:27.588 --> 00:46:31.568
So really, the rules are much stricter.

00:46:33.729 --> 00:46:37.889
And it turns out that at some point,

00:46:37.930 --> 00:46:41.271
we really got flooded with AI generated.

00:46:41.570 --> 00:46:42.171
I mean, let's be honest,

00:46:42.191 --> 00:46:43.651
it was just AI slop.

00:46:46.054 --> 00:46:48.934
I even remember we had our first

00:46:49.055 --> 00:46:51.976
submission made by OpenClaw,

00:46:53.496 --> 00:46:56.756
which had a small mistake because it

00:46:56.836 --> 00:46:58.537
attached the file that was pointing to

00:46:58.577 --> 00:47:03.659
local host.

00:47:05.698 --> 00:47:08.360
But still, we were flooded with it.

00:47:08.539 --> 00:47:10.840
We had to not only change the rules,

00:47:10.901 --> 00:47:12.860
we had to, on the other hand,

00:47:13.160 --> 00:47:13.981
implement a lot of

00:47:15.822 --> 00:47:16.702
AI tooling,

00:47:17.843 --> 00:47:20.385
just to be able to kind of fight

00:47:20.425 --> 00:47:22.546
with it, to make,

00:47:23.166 --> 00:47:24.747
to make the checks faster,

00:47:25.307 --> 00:47:27.727
to build the virtual patches faster.

00:47:27.787 --> 00:47:30.789
So because still patch like is a pretty

00:47:30.809 --> 00:47:31.530
small company.

00:47:31.809 --> 00:47:32.090
Yeah.

00:47:32.890 --> 00:47:37.593
And we have this year already few

00:47:37.613 --> 00:47:39.713
thousands of reports, valid ones.

00:47:40.894 --> 00:47:43.454
So yeah, it really changed.

00:47:43.494 --> 00:47:44.515
And we saw it's

00:47:45.785 --> 00:47:47.447
It's not only the patch that we're hit

00:47:47.506 --> 00:47:47.827
with it,

00:47:48.407 --> 00:47:51.150
because we saw that word fans had exactly

00:47:51.189 --> 00:47:52.191
the same problems.

00:47:52.211 --> 00:47:57.014
I mean, being a researcher,

00:47:57.595 --> 00:47:59.017
I totally understand.

00:47:59.057 --> 00:48:01.659
If you can get money for prompting,

00:48:01.698 --> 00:48:03.280
then why not?

00:48:05.182 --> 00:48:06.081
It's exactly the thing.

00:48:07.003 --> 00:48:07.823
But then, yeah,

00:48:07.843 --> 00:48:11.807
the frontier models and the WordPress core

00:48:11.847 --> 00:48:13.887
vulnerabilities, that was...

00:48:15.447 --> 00:48:16.289
That was surprising.

00:48:17.108 --> 00:48:18.030
That was surprising.

00:48:20.090 --> 00:48:21.691
Because for so many years,

00:48:22.572 --> 00:48:23.613
there was this narration,

00:48:23.653 --> 00:48:25.032
and I also told it very often,

00:48:25.073 --> 00:48:28.334
that when someone says that WordPress

00:48:28.414 --> 00:48:31.017
isn't secure, I mean,

00:48:31.157 --> 00:48:34.019
WordPress core is secure.

00:48:34.079 --> 00:48:35.358
The plugins aren't.

00:48:37.202 --> 00:48:38.923
But in total, if I remember,

00:48:38.943 --> 00:48:40.425
there were five, seven?

00:48:40.965 --> 00:48:41.186
In total,

00:48:41.285 --> 00:48:42.427
I think it was five or seven

00:48:42.447 --> 00:48:43.447
vulnerabilities found,

00:48:43.887 --> 00:48:48.070
with one very severe.

00:48:48.211 --> 00:48:50.512
And everyone watched this code.

00:48:50.572 --> 00:48:52.133
I think it was also kind of the

00:48:52.193 --> 00:48:52.775
thing that...

00:48:56.097 --> 00:48:57.278
I don't know what to say that we

00:48:57.358 --> 00:49:00.360
kind of become lazy or we kind of

00:49:01.081 --> 00:49:03.642
believed too much in this saying that the

00:49:03.682 --> 00:49:04.443
core is secure.

00:49:05.508 --> 00:49:09.389
Because probably no human researchers

00:49:09.448 --> 00:49:11.610
would find this vulnerability.

00:49:11.630 --> 00:49:13.450
Right.

00:49:13.470 --> 00:49:13.550
Yeah.

00:49:14.389 --> 00:49:14.811
Or maybe.

00:49:16.171 --> 00:49:16.570
But still,

00:49:17.490 --> 00:49:20.831
it really changed the world upside down.

00:49:20.992 --> 00:49:25.554
And the thing that we also saw over

00:49:25.593 --> 00:49:26.133
the years,

00:49:27.514 --> 00:49:30.195
time needed for vulnerability to be

00:49:30.314 --> 00:49:30.755
exploited.

00:49:32.041 --> 00:49:38.005
it was weeks than days yeah and in

00:49:38.084 --> 00:49:40.847
our last report we published last year it

00:49:40.867 --> 00:49:45.389
was five hours if i remember so probably

00:49:45.791 --> 00:49:48.733
now it's even faster the problem is that

00:49:49.173 --> 00:49:51.273
there are much more zero days being

00:49:51.314 --> 00:49:51.814
discovered

00:49:52.512 --> 00:49:55.414
So AI is finding vulnerabilities that no

00:49:55.494 --> 00:49:58.697
one knows about.

00:50:00.338 --> 00:50:01.318
Especially in the WordPress world,

00:50:01.418 --> 00:50:02.959
it totally changed the perspective.

00:50:02.979 --> 00:50:03.258
I mean,

00:50:03.418 --> 00:50:05.079
we already had kind of some of the

00:50:05.139 --> 00:50:10.483
things that we already knew that were kind

00:50:10.503 --> 00:50:11.463
of outdated, right?

00:50:11.503 --> 00:50:11.744
Like,

00:50:11.963 --> 00:50:13.726
just keep your WordPress up to date and

00:50:13.765 --> 00:50:14.425
you are safe.

00:50:14.985 --> 00:50:16.726
We already know it's not true.

00:50:16.867 --> 00:50:20.470
But now we see how much untrue it

00:50:20.550 --> 00:50:20.590
is.

00:50:22.360 --> 00:50:25.421
and five hours for exploitation was a year

00:50:25.481 --> 00:50:25.760
ago.

00:50:25.800 --> 00:50:26.640
So right now,

00:50:26.660 --> 00:50:29.521
I really I can't wait when we start.

00:50:29.541 --> 00:50:33.122
Because we are just summarizing it once

00:50:33.302 --> 00:50:33.682
once a year,

00:50:33.702 --> 00:50:35.101
because it's a kind of a lot of

00:50:35.162 --> 00:50:36.102
data we have to crunch.

00:50:36.622 --> 00:50:39.762
But this number is really fascinating for

00:50:39.802 --> 00:50:42.443
me to see how much it it changed.

00:50:43.923 --> 00:50:48.564
And yeah, and also, on the other hand,

00:50:48.584 --> 00:50:49.005
we have

00:50:50.724 --> 00:50:53.226
the whole vibe coding thing,

00:50:53.666 --> 00:50:55.108
which is also a separate thing.

00:50:57.209 --> 00:51:00.131
But yeah, all those apps like Lavable,

00:51:00.211 --> 00:51:01.072
Bolt, whatever,

00:51:03.794 --> 00:51:06.898
they gave so much opportunities to people

00:51:06.938 --> 00:51:09.780
that would never learn how to code,

00:51:10.360 --> 00:51:12.441
to create their software with a database,

00:51:12.501 --> 00:51:14.403
with payments, with everything.

00:51:14.523 --> 00:51:16.885
And it's like a typical question,

00:51:17.005 --> 00:51:17.927
what can go wrong?

00:51:18.849 --> 00:51:20.771
right yeah i mean the the thing that

00:51:20.831 --> 00:51:23.133
i've been saying for most of this year

00:51:23.193 --> 00:51:26.458
is that like you know give it six

00:51:26.537 --> 00:51:28.280
months give it a year give it two

00:51:28.320 --> 00:51:31.242
years all of those sites that people built

00:51:31.662 --> 00:51:34.325
like as soon as cloud code suddenly got

00:51:34.385 --> 00:51:37.168
good they're gonna need they're they're

00:51:37.208 --> 00:51:38.650
not just going to have

00:51:39.628 --> 00:51:41.448
updates that need to be applied.

00:51:41.588 --> 00:51:43.429
They're going to need those updates

00:51:43.448 --> 00:51:45.490
applied because there is going to be like

00:51:45.510 --> 00:51:46.751
security vulnerabilities and the

00:51:46.771 --> 00:51:49.711
dependency packages that were made to

00:51:49.771 --> 00:51:51.711
build the thing that these people had

00:51:51.751 --> 00:51:52.052
coded.

00:51:52.211 --> 00:51:55.532
And if you don't have an understanding of

00:51:55.773 --> 00:51:56.133
how

00:51:57.354 --> 00:51:59.215
dependency management works in javascript

00:51:59.235 --> 00:52:02.358
applications you know like which is not a

00:52:02.458 --> 00:52:06.760
super uh opaque uh topic like it's it's

00:52:06.921 --> 00:52:08.622
or not super transparent like it's it's

00:52:08.782 --> 00:52:11.084
it's not an easy thing to get into

00:52:11.805 --> 00:52:15.128
uh yeah especially yeah you're not gonna

00:52:15.367 --> 00:52:17.909
have any idea how to fix that um

00:52:17.970 --> 00:52:19.030
or how to keep your site up to

00:52:19.050 --> 00:52:22.072
date and secure and uh yeah i i'm

00:52:22.113 --> 00:52:23.613
just waiting for all of those sites to

00:52:23.854 --> 00:52:24.055
to

00:52:25.175 --> 00:52:26.215
And so I wonder, too,

00:52:26.416 --> 00:52:29.778
the little bump of the other category and

00:52:29.818 --> 00:52:31.880
the little dip in the WordPress category

00:52:32.019 --> 00:52:34.742
on the usage church,

00:52:35.081 --> 00:52:40.465
I wonder if it's going to normalize in

00:52:40.584 --> 00:52:42.265
a year or two because people are going

00:52:42.285 --> 00:52:44.026
to abandon those things and go back to

00:52:44.086 --> 00:52:45.528
a thing that they know they can use

00:52:45.568 --> 00:52:47.450
and somebody else is doing the maintenance

00:52:47.530 --> 00:52:47.749
on it.

00:52:48.677 --> 00:52:50.798
That's kind of a really good question.

00:52:51.017 --> 00:52:53.619
And something that I don't know an answer.

00:52:53.880 --> 00:53:02.084
But from our, from our example, Lana,

00:53:02.104 --> 00:53:05.206
who is also a part of marketing at

00:53:05.246 --> 00:53:06.947
patch tag, at some point,

00:53:07.387 --> 00:53:10.849
she vibe coded portal for our,

00:53:11.470 --> 00:53:13.510
for our partners.

00:53:13.630 --> 00:53:15.131
Using lovable, all great.

00:53:17.059 --> 00:53:17.901
works as it should.

00:53:20.182 --> 00:53:24.385
But and she also described it as fun,

00:53:24.686 --> 00:53:26.367
that it was fun creating this thing.

00:53:26.488 --> 00:53:27.948
And it was really amazing.

00:53:28.628 --> 00:53:30.831
Yeah.

00:53:30.851 --> 00:53:34.213
But then we really quickly introduced the

00:53:34.253 --> 00:53:37.396
term of kind of vibe maintenance,

00:53:37.595 --> 00:53:40.258
or which subtle,

00:53:40.517 --> 00:53:42.419
which sadly isn't that fun.

00:53:45.122 --> 00:53:45.242
Yeah.

00:53:45.726 --> 00:53:47.026
And that's kind of the problem.

00:53:47.146 --> 00:53:51.188
And this is this sort of because like

00:53:51.227 --> 00:53:55.369
we probably a lot of people don't

00:53:55.468 --> 00:53:59.990
understand that building software was

00:54:00.291 --> 00:54:03.512
never that much of a problem in the

00:54:03.592 --> 00:54:06.651
whole scheme of development.

00:54:06.751 --> 00:54:08.552
I mean, it's a huge part of it,

00:54:08.593 --> 00:54:08.852
right.

00:54:08.972 --> 00:54:09.133
But

00:54:11.128 --> 00:54:13.530
when you build it, it's there, it works.

00:54:13.689 --> 00:54:15.892
But then you have to maintain it at

00:54:15.952 --> 00:54:17.452
features, fake stuff,

00:54:17.492 --> 00:54:19.294
make sure it constantly works.

00:54:21.215 --> 00:54:22.057
And that's boring.

00:54:22.997 --> 00:54:24.238
Because when you create things,

00:54:24.338 --> 00:54:25.439
it's really cool.

00:54:25.499 --> 00:54:27.340
It kind of gives you this superpower.

00:54:27.421 --> 00:54:28.822
And let's be honest,

00:54:28.903 --> 00:54:30.124
especially right now with AI,

00:54:30.144 --> 00:54:32.445
when you can do it so quickly,

00:54:32.526 --> 00:54:34.267
it's wow, it's amazing.

00:54:35.874 --> 00:54:37.077
But then you have to maintain it.

00:54:37.197 --> 00:54:38.298
And let's be honest,

00:54:38.458 --> 00:54:40.901
maintenance was always boring,

00:54:40.981 --> 00:54:44.626
frustrating, just horrible.

00:54:45.086 --> 00:54:46.930
So if we put it,

00:54:47.910 --> 00:54:50.193
if it would have a scale happiness to

00:54:51.735 --> 00:54:53.918
so for sure, building and happiness,

00:54:53.999 --> 00:54:54.119
it's

00:54:54.956 --> 00:54:56.557
Okay, it also can be frustrating.

00:54:56.597 --> 00:54:57.039
But still,

00:54:57.139 --> 00:54:58.941
you feel that you are doing there's

00:54:58.981 --> 00:54:59.822
something at the end of it.

00:54:59.842 --> 00:55:00.483
That's rewarding.

00:55:00.742 --> 00:55:01.343
Exactly.

00:55:01.363 --> 00:55:01.925
Yeah.

00:55:02.604 --> 00:55:02.765
Yeah.

00:55:02.945 --> 00:55:03.907
Oh, that's the thing.

00:55:04.026 --> 00:55:04.968
It has an end.

00:55:05.588 --> 00:55:06.450
You will sure build.

00:55:06.470 --> 00:55:07.110
Yeah.

00:55:07.450 --> 00:55:09.093
And maintenance by default.

00:55:09.193 --> 00:55:10.155
It's endless.

00:55:10.195 --> 00:55:11.496
It's endless grind.

00:55:11.575 --> 00:55:13.499
It's Oh, God, it's the worst.

00:55:15.262 --> 00:55:16.003
And that's one thing.

00:55:16.144 --> 00:55:19.166
And I'm sure that some of the people

00:55:19.226 --> 00:55:24.050
that are right now rewriting so many SaaS

00:55:24.070 --> 00:55:28.713
applications using cloud in a year or two

00:55:29.093 --> 00:55:29.874
will realize

00:55:31.095 --> 00:55:33.296
Yeah, it's pretty annoying to maintain it.

00:55:33.637 --> 00:55:34.276
On the other hand,

00:55:34.396 --> 00:55:37.418
it also might be a nice wake-up call

00:55:37.458 --> 00:55:39.418
for the SaaS companies that maybe they

00:55:39.438 --> 00:55:42.599
should go a bit down with the pricing

00:55:42.679 --> 00:55:43.519
in some cases.

00:55:45.079 --> 00:55:48.541
So I think it may normalize for both

00:55:48.601 --> 00:55:49.401
sides, which is cool.

00:55:50.101 --> 00:55:50.782
On the other hand,

00:55:50.802 --> 00:55:52.222
and this is also one of the topics

00:55:52.262 --> 00:55:53.702
we have at CMS Gulf,

00:55:55.573 --> 00:55:57.534
Michał Strzeciński from three hundred

00:55:57.555 --> 00:55:58.055
design,

00:55:58.095 --> 00:56:00.657
they are an agency that specializes in

00:56:00.778 --> 00:56:03.519
WordPress and and if I remember strapping

00:56:03.778 --> 00:56:04.959
strap, they're using strap.

00:56:07.081 --> 00:56:10.923
He submitted a talk about Do you even

00:56:11.003 --> 00:56:13.505
need a CMS?

00:56:14.285 --> 00:56:15.387
And lately,

00:56:16.862 --> 00:56:20.463
we can read much more that a lot

00:56:20.483 --> 00:56:23.164
of people kind of realize that having

00:56:23.463 --> 00:56:28.046
astro and claude together it's more than

00:56:28.106 --> 00:56:30.767
enough for their blog and i think this

00:56:30.827 --> 00:56:36.528
part is very healthy because uh for four

00:56:36.608 --> 00:56:41.409
years i was really advocating that having

00:56:41.590 --> 00:56:45.432
a dynamic wordpress hosted somewhere

00:56:46.671 --> 00:56:51.012
In most cases, you don't need it.

00:56:51.673 --> 00:56:53.852
You have an agency website or you have

00:56:54.773 --> 00:56:58.595
just a simple site that tells who you

00:56:58.775 --> 00:56:59.034
are.

00:57:00.635 --> 00:57:02.255
Until you go into something really

00:57:02.316 --> 00:57:06.497
dynamic, you should have HTML.

00:57:06.637 --> 00:57:07.097
That's it.

00:57:07.858 --> 00:57:10.238
They were static site builders before,

00:57:11.479 --> 00:57:13.740
but the barrier was really big.

00:57:14.851 --> 00:57:15.570
for everyone.

00:57:16.070 --> 00:57:16.771
And suddenly,

00:57:17.311 --> 00:57:21.851
because we can see how Astro got so

00:57:21.872 --> 00:57:22.872
much popular lately.

00:57:23.733 --> 00:57:25.452
So many people even from the WordPress

00:57:25.472 --> 00:57:27.193
space, I mean, Yost,

00:57:27.293 --> 00:57:30.374
the famous Yost decided to ditch

00:57:31.494 --> 00:57:33.954
WordPress, he used for years for his blog,

00:57:34.534 --> 00:57:35.814
and he never uses Astro.

00:57:37.514 --> 00:57:38.155
And like I said,

00:57:38.175 --> 00:57:39.934
I think this part is very healthy.

00:57:40.235 --> 00:57:42.396
Because this is one of the signs use

00:57:42.496 --> 00:57:44.055
the right tool for the job.

00:57:46.423 --> 00:57:48.905
and most of us really shouldn't have to

00:57:49.767 --> 00:57:52.409
worry about kind of managing their

00:57:52.450 --> 00:57:54.751
website, especially the dynamic one,

00:57:54.771 --> 00:57:55.633
keeping the updates.

00:57:56.372 --> 00:57:57.854
And it's also pretty costly.

00:57:57.894 --> 00:58:01.999
So yeah, well, why not do it cheaper?

00:58:03.200 --> 00:58:03.659
Exactly.

00:58:04.421 --> 00:58:06.322
Well, thank you, magic for coming on.

00:58:06.742 --> 00:58:10.345
Think working working people find you on

00:58:10.365 --> 00:58:12.128
the internet if they were looking

00:58:13.912 --> 00:58:15.615
So I do have a website,

00:58:15.755 --> 00:58:17.075
Maciek Palmowski dot dev,

00:58:17.195 --> 00:58:19.077
probably you will attach it in the notes.

00:58:20.479 --> 00:58:23.561
You can mostly find me on LinkedIn lately,

00:58:23.581 --> 00:58:25.264
which is a huge surprise for me that

00:58:25.883 --> 00:58:26.505
I am there.

00:58:28.026 --> 00:58:28.506
But sadly,

00:58:28.546 --> 00:58:33.110
the other the other social media portals

00:58:33.151 --> 00:58:34.311
kind of, well,

00:58:36.001 --> 00:58:37.461
they got how they got.

00:58:38.242 --> 00:58:38.662
So yeah,

00:58:38.822 --> 00:58:41.543
it turns out that LinkedIn owned by

00:58:41.604 --> 00:58:44.604
Microsoft became the most normal one.

00:58:44.624 --> 00:58:48.624
We're, we're really living in weird times.

00:58:50.626 --> 00:58:50.905
Yeah.

00:58:50.985 --> 00:58:53.046
And of course,

00:58:53.066 --> 00:58:56.767
you can also find me on the CMS

00:58:56.807 --> 00:58:59.608
conf.com side.

00:58:59.648 --> 00:58:59.789
Great.

00:58:59.809 --> 00:59:00.048
Awesome.

00:59:00.689 --> 00:59:01.329
I think I will.

00:59:01.827 --> 00:59:03.508
And I think I will attach a special

00:59:03.548 --> 00:59:06.110
coupon if someone will be interested in

00:59:06.150 --> 00:59:09.691
coming to Poland with twenty percent off.

00:59:11.572 --> 00:59:12.713
Awesome.

00:59:12.733 --> 00:59:13.894
Well, thanks again for coming on.

00:59:14.213 --> 00:59:14.595
Thank you,

00:59:14.655 --> 00:59:16.856
everyone who might be watching this or

00:59:16.896 --> 00:59:18.077
listening to this in the future.

00:59:18.456 --> 00:59:20.898
And yeah, we'll see you on the Internet.

00:59:21.778 --> 00:59:22.159
Thanks.

00:59:22.499 --> 00:59:23.159
Have a great day.

00:59:23.180 --> 00:59:23.499
See ya.