WEBVTT

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Hey, everyone.

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Welcome back to Community & Code.

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I'm your host, Chris Reynolds.

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This week,

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my guest is someone who helped coin the

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term developer relations.

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Back before it was a job title that

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anyone could put on a business card.

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Just ask Wikipedia.

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You might know PJ Haggerty online as

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Spleenik from his work running

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devrelate.io or from one of his many

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appearances at DevRelCon.

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You may also know him from open sourcing

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mental health.

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But before any of that,

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PJ was a musician playing guitar outside

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bars he wasn't old enough to get into.

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And it turns out that the same

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you-can't-tell-me-what-to-do energy in

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punk rock is exactly what he thinks open

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source needs right now,

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especially with AI reshaping or,

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depending on how you look at it,

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threatening to swallow

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together.

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We get into a lot in this one,

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the accidental conference talk that kicked

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off PJ's speaking career,

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what happens when big companies try to

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domesticate an open source project,

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whether developer relations survives the

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next three years,

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and the work that he's done for over

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a decade trying to get the tech industry

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to actually talk about mental health.

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I'm super excited to present to you PJ

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Haggerty.

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Welcome to Community & Code,

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the podcast where we talk to the human

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beings behind the commits.

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And my human being today is PJ Haggerty.

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And PJ,

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you told me something a little while ago

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that I think is a perfect place to

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start.

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You said that you believe that you kind

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of coined the term developer relations.

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So talk about yourself and also how that

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is a thing.

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It all rolls into one answer.

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So in my early days, as a developer,

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I discovered open source and all the great

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things that come with open source and

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everything's wonderful.

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And I started getting involved in

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communities, running meetups, doing talks,

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things like that.

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And at the time,

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that wasn't like a thing that people did.

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We were kind of at...

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It was a thing that people did.

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People did do it,

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but there was no title for it.

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There was no way of quantifying or naming

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the thing.

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It was like being in the mafia.

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It was like, this thing we do.

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Are you part of this thing we do?

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We tried to codify it and make it

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a real job that people did.

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The first swing we took was calling it

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community engineering.

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which sounded great at first.

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Like it sounds absolutely amazing,

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but it also sounds like social

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engineering,

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which is kind of has some negative

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connotations.

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So around that time, you know,

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I was meeting with a few people and

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they came up, they're like, well,

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you know,

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what we do is we relate information to

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developers.

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So what do we call it?

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Developer relations.

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And this is, this is great.

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I won't say I was the only person

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there, but according to Wikipedia,

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like myself and Amy Leonard started this

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modern DevRel movement.

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It's not that it wasn't a thing like

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DevRel.

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For those of you who have seen my

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talks at DevRelCon,

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DevRel actually started like in the

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nineties where this one guy at Apple was

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just like, Hey,

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maybe the engineers shouldn't go out and

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talk to people because they're really bad

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at it.

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Maybe like I'm a pretty outgoing guy.

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Let me do it.

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So he started doing it,

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but they didn't call it that.

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They just called like public relations or

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they call it, you know,

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developer marketing.

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But it wasn't the same thing because he

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was really just going out.

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Yeah,

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he's going out and trying to get people

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to buy Apple products.

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It wasn't even like really what we think

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of as modern dev rel.

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So yeah, in like, twenty eleven,

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twenty twelve, somewhere around there,

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we kind of sat down and we're like,

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hey,

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what if we contribute to open source

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projects?

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We help write documentation for our users.

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We go to conferences and talk about not

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our product.

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But the things that people actually care

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about that surround the product,

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which at the time was like Ruby and

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PHP and Composer and Bundler and like all

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these things are ancillary to our product

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because that's what the users actually

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use.

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We were just a platform as a service.

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So that was kind of the idea behind

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it to get out there, educate people,

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get them better at what they were doing

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so we could be better at servicing them.

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And that worked out pretty well because

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we're doing it for like, you know,

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fifteen, sixteen, seventeen years,

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somewhere around there.

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Yeah,

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what steered you into doing that just

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generally?

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I mean,

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how did your path wind into doing the

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meetups and the talks and things to begin

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with?

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Yeah, well, so it's an interesting past.

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So growing up,

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I was not a super technology nerd person,

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kind of.

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It was always like, and Jason's like,

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yeah, so we've got laptops at schools.

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Cool, like, that's awesome.

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I'm going to learn to code Turbo Pascal

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five point five.

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Awesome.

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That's super cool.

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But in reality, I'm a musician.

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Like I'm, you know, playing shows like,

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yes, I go to school all week.

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And then on the weekends,

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I'm standing outside of bars waiting for

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them to let me in so I could

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play shows with my band.

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because I was not old enough to be

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the bar.

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So it was like, you know,

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that was like, to me,

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that was the whole thing.

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And bands, especially at that time,

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like hardcore alternative punk rock bands,

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very much into the DIY community building

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aspect of things.

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So when, you know, when I grew up,

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air quotes around that.

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It was something that I just kind of

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took over.

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It's like, oh, well, you know,

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in technology,

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they have these things called meetups.

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I just, I love meetups.

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Like they're my favorite thing in the

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whole world.

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Still to this day,

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I love meetups because meetups are,

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they're chill, they're casual.

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People can come and try out different

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things.

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They can decide whether it's right for

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them.

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They can decide whether this talk is

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working.

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They can get good feedback on their

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projects or on their presentations and

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And it's a semi non-judgmental

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environment.

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I'll say semi non-judgmental because

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there's humans judge.

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It's what we do.

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But like finding out that it was like,

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that's super cool.

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And getting into open source and realizing

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like how powerful that was.

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So I would like run meetups and help

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people to run meetups.

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And then one day I was at this,

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I was at a conference in Pittsburgh,

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Pennsylvania.

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Steel City Ruby.

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Shout out to Steel City Ruby.

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And I was there with this guy,

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Jim Weirich.

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So Ruby is no Jim Weirich.

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He's the guy who created Rake,

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which is Ruby's version of Make.

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He was like Santa Claus.

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Whenever he was at a conference,

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he brought this hello world energy that

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when you see someone who's done such

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magnificent things around programming and

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development and engineering,

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and he would just come up and be

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like,

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Did y'all know that you could, you know,

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use Ruby to program one of those AR

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paratrones?

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Because they're really just like a

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Bluetooth hotspot.

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They're really just like a wireless

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router.

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You can just hit it and give it

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commands.

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It's like, that's crazy, Jim.

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Tell us more.

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But whenever he could drive,

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he'd bring a guitar.

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So we were there at Steel City Ruby.

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Playing guitars because he knew all of the

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songs and had all these awesome guitars

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and just good time.

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And another friend of ours walked in,

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a guy named Corey Haynes.

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And he was like, you know, PJ,

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you're always at these things.

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You're so outgoing.

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You love the community.

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That's super clear.

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Why don't you ever give a talk?

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And I was like, ah, man,

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that's not for me, man.

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That's not, it's for other people.

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not a core contributor i'm just a guy

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who writes some code every once in a

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while and sometimes it even works um and

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he was like cool cool and he ran

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out of the room we're just sitting there

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you know still playing our guitars and he

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comes back he goes bro i signed you

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up for a talk and i'm like you

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I didn't say I had to talk.

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He said,

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you said you had like half a talk.

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I'm like about meetups,

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about how cool meetups are.

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Like,

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I thought it was a good idea that

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I might do some days like while you're

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doing it in about an hour.

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So I got up and stay on stage

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and I took the.

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five minutes that I had and use three

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minutes of it to talk about how meetups

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should be treated like open source

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projects or should be, you know,

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one person who's kind of a leader at

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the head,

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but it's gotta be a community driven

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event.

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It can't be one person deciding

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everything.

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Got off stage and was like, woo,

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stepped outside.

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And I was like, well,

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check that off the list.

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I've spoken at a conference now.

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And a gentleman came up to me and

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he's like, Hey,

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throw in a conference in Kansas city in

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a few weeks,

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would you be interested in coming to

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speak?

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And I was like,

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I gave him the most honest answer I

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could have said.

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I don't know.

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I don't know if I'm allowed to do

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that.

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Cause I didn't, it wasn't like a job.

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Like everyone who would speak at a

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conference at that point in time was a

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head engineer, a founding engineer,

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a core contributor to a project.

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Like it wasn't people who were just like,

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that's all they did was speak at

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conferences.

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That wasn't a thing.

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So I,

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I called my boss then and there on

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the spot and he was like, yeah,

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just make sure you're wearing the company

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t-shirt.

00:09:03.368 --> 00:09:03.988
And from there,

00:09:04.069 --> 00:09:05.569
it went to like it was like five

00:09:05.589 --> 00:09:06.409
minutes in Pittsburgh,

00:09:06.449 --> 00:09:07.909
went to forty minutes in Kansas City,

00:09:07.930 --> 00:09:09.510
went to an hour in Tel Aviv,

00:09:09.971 --> 00:09:12.111
went to another forty five minutes in

00:09:12.250 --> 00:09:12.692
Lyon.

00:09:13.212 --> 00:09:13.791
And at that point,

00:09:13.812 --> 00:09:15.192
that's when Eamon Leonard was like, hey,

00:09:15.212 --> 00:09:16.233
we should do this thing.

00:09:16.613 --> 00:09:18.012
And I was like, what is this thing?

00:09:18.053 --> 00:09:19.654
He's like, we're going to figure it out.

00:09:20.074 --> 00:09:22.834
And we sat down with a classic like

00:09:23.514 --> 00:09:24.955
piece, couple pieces, sheets of paper,

00:09:25.315 --> 00:09:25.875
wrote it out.

00:09:26.740 --> 00:09:27.041
And we're like,

00:09:27.062 --> 00:09:28.284
this is what we think community

00:09:28.324 --> 00:09:29.325
engineering should look like.

00:09:29.524 --> 00:09:31.688
And that's kind of what led me to

00:09:31.709 --> 00:09:32.430
where I am today.

00:09:33.250 --> 00:09:33.611
Since then,

00:09:33.651 --> 00:09:35.534
I've run my own DevRel as a service

00:09:35.555 --> 00:09:36.036
company.

00:09:36.055 --> 00:09:38.159
It's devrelate.io.

00:09:38.178 --> 00:09:38.700
It's still around.

00:09:38.719 --> 00:09:40.002
So if you're looking for DevRel help,

00:09:40.022 --> 00:09:41.503
folks, I got you.

00:09:42.563 --> 00:09:43.724
Um, but like, you know,

00:09:43.745 --> 00:09:44.705
I've worked at the big companies,

00:09:44.726 --> 00:09:46.426
I've worked at huge enterprises like IBM

00:09:46.466 --> 00:09:47.226
and Spotify,

00:09:47.526 --> 00:09:48.947
worked at tiny startups where there's

00:09:48.967 --> 00:09:50.389
like, you know, seven or eight people.

00:09:51.069 --> 00:09:51.709
I've done it all.

00:09:51.829 --> 00:09:52.709
And the thing that is,

00:09:52.771 --> 00:09:53.851
that stays universal is like,

00:09:53.890 --> 00:09:55.471
you need the community support you.

00:09:55.892 --> 00:09:57.252
If you do not have the community

00:09:57.272 --> 00:09:57.853
supporting you,

00:09:58.334 --> 00:09:59.615
especially if you're building a developer

00:09:59.654 --> 00:09:59.894
tool,

00:10:00.354 --> 00:10:02.135
then you're not going to be successful.

00:10:02.856 --> 00:10:03.296
You can't,

00:10:03.317 --> 00:10:04.377
they're not going to come to you.

00:10:04.418 --> 00:10:05.658
It's not going to magically happen.

00:10:06.079 --> 00:10:07.579
You need people to help you foster that

00:10:07.619 --> 00:10:08.140
relationship.

00:10:10.239 --> 00:10:13.463
You mentioned the sort of punk rock ethos,

00:10:13.682 --> 00:10:16.686
and I also kind of feel that there's

00:10:16.727 --> 00:10:20.109
an alignment between open source and,

00:10:20.690 --> 00:10:25.136
like, if I think about, like, like,

00:10:25.945 --> 00:10:28.286
saying punk rock now kind of has different

00:10:28.305 --> 00:10:29.526
meanings than saying punk rock in the

00:10:29.586 --> 00:10:29.906
eighties.

00:10:29.946 --> 00:10:30.186
Right.

00:10:32.388 --> 00:10:32.748
But like,

00:10:32.789 --> 00:10:34.530
if you think about like what the founding

00:10:34.629 --> 00:10:37.811
ethos and, and, uh, movement was like,

00:10:38.071 --> 00:10:39.372
there are definite parallels.

00:10:39.512 --> 00:10:40.973
What do you think, uh,

00:10:41.292 --> 00:10:44.754
open source today can learn from sort of

00:10:45.075 --> 00:10:47.336
the story of punk, um,

00:10:47.556 --> 00:10:49.877
like in terms of how it shapes the

00:10:49.938 --> 00:10:51.018
future of open source?

00:10:51.559 --> 00:10:51.799
Well,

00:10:52.118 --> 00:10:54.060
I would say one of the biggest things

00:10:54.100 --> 00:10:56.262
that the open source community can learn

00:10:56.281 --> 00:10:56.902
at this point,

00:10:58.503 --> 00:11:00.766
especially right now with AI kind of

00:11:00.805 --> 00:11:01.666
pressing in on everything,

00:11:01.705 --> 00:11:03.147
and it's a little bit depressing,

00:11:03.166 --> 00:11:05.528
to be honest with you,

00:11:05.648 --> 00:11:07.410
is something that the bad brain is saying

00:11:07.430 --> 00:11:08.151
about quite a bit.

00:11:08.190 --> 00:11:10.333
That's positive mental attitude, PMA.

00:11:11.522 --> 00:11:11.664
Um,

00:11:11.783 --> 00:11:13.866
if open source can say positive or open

00:11:13.906 --> 00:11:14.425
source can say,

00:11:14.467 --> 00:11:15.748
we're not going to let this envelop us.

00:11:16.068 --> 00:11:17.008
We're going to embrace it,

00:11:17.189 --> 00:11:18.330
not let it embrace us.

00:11:18.911 --> 00:11:20.412
Then I think that, you know,

00:11:20.473 --> 00:11:21.954
that's the kind of attitude they need to

00:11:21.994 --> 00:11:22.275
have.

00:11:22.855 --> 00:11:23.977
Also the whole,

00:11:24.617 --> 00:11:26.759
the whole ethos of punk rock is you

00:11:26.800 --> 00:11:28.541
cannot tell me what to do.

00:11:28.642 --> 00:11:28.701
Hmm.

00:11:29.166 --> 00:11:31.566
So kind of pushing against the, well,

00:11:31.948 --> 00:11:33.348
you either get on the bus or you're

00:11:33.368 --> 00:11:34.667
going to be swept up in the inevitable

00:11:34.728 --> 00:11:35.547
tide that comes through.

00:11:35.988 --> 00:11:36.208
Well,

00:11:36.568 --> 00:11:38.148
that wasn't true when the crypto bro said

00:11:38.189 --> 00:11:38.289
it.

00:11:38.908 --> 00:11:40.189
And it wasn't true when the Web Three

00:11:40.228 --> 00:11:40.868
folks said it.

00:11:41.289 --> 00:11:43.450
And it wasn't true when, you know,

00:11:43.489 --> 00:11:44.570
blockchain was the future.

00:11:45.009 --> 00:11:46.050
It's not true right now.

00:11:46.890 --> 00:11:48.030
AI is a tool.

00:11:48.209 --> 00:11:49.350
It's a developer tool,

00:11:49.830 --> 00:11:52.271
kind of like Git is a developer tool

00:11:52.391 --> 00:11:54.531
or Composer or Bunder or any other things

00:11:54.550 --> 00:11:55.331
I've mentioned before.

00:11:55.911 --> 00:11:56.872
It's a developer tool.

00:11:57.771 --> 00:12:00.333
It is not the golden hammer.

00:12:02.353 --> 00:12:03.415
Fight against that idea.

00:12:04.134 --> 00:12:05.896
Fight against it.

00:12:06.355 --> 00:12:07.416
I think the two big things,

00:12:07.796 --> 00:12:08.417
fight against it,

00:12:08.557 --> 00:12:09.797
keep a positive mental attitude.

00:12:10.118 --> 00:12:11.739
That's open source's success for the next

00:12:11.780 --> 00:12:12.219
ten years.

00:12:14.807 --> 00:12:17.189
You said the don't-tell-me-what-to-do

00:12:18.129 --> 00:12:18.709
mentality,

00:12:18.829 --> 00:12:22.093
and I think about the companies,

00:12:23.172 --> 00:12:23.893
and I work for one,

00:12:24.714 --> 00:12:27.256
that use open source,

00:12:27.276 --> 00:12:31.358
that resell products built on top of open

00:12:31.419 --> 00:12:31.799
source.

00:12:35.381 --> 00:12:37.262
And in a lot of ways,

00:12:37.421 --> 00:12:40.103
I don't know, I feel this tension,

00:12:40.143 --> 00:12:41.525
because on the one hand...

00:12:44.554 --> 00:12:47.975
obviously gainful employment and like

00:12:48.475 --> 00:12:50.336
large customers and businesses and stuff

00:12:50.477 --> 00:12:52.478
need stuff and they need a stable platform

00:12:52.517 --> 00:12:52.818
and stuff.

00:12:52.838 --> 00:12:55.219
So they're gonna use something hosted and

00:12:55.420 --> 00:12:58.681
managed for them because they don't have

00:12:58.742 --> 00:13:00.041
time to worry about that.

00:13:00.943 --> 00:13:01.863
But on the other hand,

00:13:02.444 --> 00:13:05.525
like when you bring these large

00:13:05.584 --> 00:13:07.065
organizations into,

00:13:07.445 --> 00:13:08.387
and this has been the case,

00:13:09.331 --> 00:13:09.512
I mean,

00:13:09.571 --> 00:13:11.272
ever since I knew what open source was

00:13:11.333 --> 00:13:12.552
back in, like, you know,

00:13:12.892 --> 00:13:14.194
playing with Linux days, right?

00:13:14.314 --> 00:13:17.354
You get these large companies that are

00:13:17.374 --> 00:13:18.035
like, ooh,

00:13:18.415 --> 00:13:20.195
this is a nice little thing that I

00:13:20.215 --> 00:13:21.555
can, like, own and, like,

00:13:21.616 --> 00:13:23.517
try to take over all of, you know?

00:13:23.576 --> 00:13:24.917
Like, I think about, like,

00:13:24.978 --> 00:13:25.938
back in the day when, like,

00:13:25.958 --> 00:13:26.938
there is the, like,

00:13:27.057 --> 00:13:29.059
Microsoft thought that Linux was, like,

00:13:29.378 --> 00:13:30.700
the antithesis, like, this ultimate...

00:13:31.499 --> 00:13:32.320
Yeah, exactly.

00:13:33.079 --> 00:13:36.041
Like, how do you see...

00:13:38.267 --> 00:13:39.646
sort of corporate interests

00:13:40.281 --> 00:13:43.903
or large organizations wanting to build

00:13:44.344 --> 00:13:49.527
fences around open source projects as

00:13:49.588 --> 00:13:53.270
affecting that sort of DIY punk rock

00:13:54.710 --> 00:13:55.210
ethos?

00:13:56.752 --> 00:13:59.414
I think that it remains in the hands

00:13:59.474 --> 00:14:00.214
of the users.

00:14:00.633 --> 00:14:02.876
So the developers who are actually using

00:14:02.975 --> 00:14:05.757
this open source tool or thing, project,

00:14:05.796 --> 00:14:06.397
whatever it is,

00:14:07.658 --> 00:14:09.680
they have to continue to push for...

00:14:10.180 --> 00:14:13.181
We appreciate support, not control.

00:14:13.201 --> 00:14:14.443
So I think a great example of this,

00:14:14.463 --> 00:14:16.383
I'm going to bring up another Ruby example

00:14:16.403 --> 00:14:17.265
because I'm that guy.

00:14:18.786 --> 00:14:21.588
But Heroku in the early days was using

00:14:21.627 --> 00:14:22.188
Ruby.

00:14:23.128 --> 00:14:24.670
Platforms and services before they were

00:14:24.790 --> 00:14:25.670
part of Salesforce,

00:14:25.690 --> 00:14:27.472
but they're part of Salesforce now.

00:14:28.372 --> 00:14:29.632
They decided that the best thing they

00:14:29.652 --> 00:14:30.012
could do,

00:14:30.052 --> 00:14:31.954
since they didn't have the developers on

00:14:31.994 --> 00:14:33.916
staff to maintain Ruby,

00:14:34.496 --> 00:14:37.017
they began paying Yukihiro Matsumoto.

00:14:39.242 --> 00:14:41.343
and Akashi and Akira and all of the

00:14:41.363 --> 00:14:43.844
guys who are all the people who are

00:14:44.366 --> 00:14:46.686
core contributors to Ruby.

00:14:48.007 --> 00:14:48.748
They said, you know what?

00:14:49.189 --> 00:14:50.749
We're just going to pay you a salary.

00:14:51.491 --> 00:14:52.791
You continue to do what you're going to

00:14:52.831 --> 00:14:53.071
do.

00:14:53.431 --> 00:14:54.473
We're not going to tell you where to

00:14:54.512 --> 00:14:55.454
drive that product.

00:14:55.853 --> 00:14:56.714
We're not going to tell you how to

00:14:56.734 --> 00:14:57.874
build Ruby or what to do.

00:14:58.636 --> 00:14:59.475
You know,

00:14:59.497 --> 00:15:02.319
we're just going to pay you because so

00:15:02.358 --> 00:15:05.261
much of our business is in Ruby that

00:15:05.320 --> 00:15:06.722
we're stupid not to support you.

00:15:07.778 --> 00:15:09.925
And it would be great if other

00:15:09.984 --> 00:15:11.849
corporations would think in that

00:15:11.888 --> 00:15:12.411
mentality.

00:15:14.675 --> 00:15:16.320
If the people don't push back on it,

00:15:16.339 --> 00:15:17.242
though, it doesn't happen.

00:15:20.714 --> 00:15:21.775
I'm not going to get the names right,

00:15:21.795 --> 00:15:22.614
so I'm not going to try to name

00:15:22.634 --> 00:15:22.714
them,

00:15:22.734 --> 00:15:25.036
but there was a splitting of some server

00:15:25.156 --> 00:15:27.997
OS software that was being built,

00:15:28.117 --> 00:15:28.757
open source.

00:15:30.358 --> 00:15:31.319
Someone had purchased it.

00:15:31.939 --> 00:15:33.820
I believe it was Amazon because they tend

00:15:33.839 --> 00:15:35.160
to buy a lot of things.

00:15:35.180 --> 00:15:36.340
When Amazon tends to buy a thing,

00:15:36.360 --> 00:15:37.720
they tend to control it and they change

00:15:37.741 --> 00:15:38.342
the license.

00:15:39.102 --> 00:15:41.483
it's no good but just before that happened

00:15:41.523 --> 00:15:43.484
the community broke it off and started

00:15:43.525 --> 00:15:45.485
another project that is exactly the same

00:15:45.526 --> 00:15:47.608
thing gave it a different name and said

00:15:47.807 --> 00:15:48.988
here we go we're still doing the same

00:15:49.027 --> 00:15:51.509
thing in amazon it fizzled nothing

00:15:51.550 --> 00:15:52.950
happened it kind of died because it didn't

00:15:52.970 --> 00:15:54.531
have that community support because they

00:15:54.571 --> 00:15:57.594
wanted to control it and that's what like

00:15:57.974 --> 00:15:59.435
these these these higher these higher

00:15:59.515 --> 00:16:00.616
echelon people who are making these

00:16:00.636 --> 00:16:01.836
decisions need to understand

00:16:02.696 --> 00:16:04.878
If you try to control open source,

00:16:05.099 --> 00:16:07.060
this sounds like such a hippie right now.

00:16:07.621 --> 00:16:08.902
Open source is a wild animal.

00:16:09.343 --> 00:16:10.883
You can't bring it home and domesticate

00:16:11.545 --> 00:16:11.884
it.

00:16:12.906 --> 00:16:14.647
The tree frog that is open source doesn't

00:16:14.667 --> 00:16:15.568
want to live in your house.

00:16:16.049 --> 00:16:16.949
It wants to be out in the forest

00:16:16.989 --> 00:16:18.891
where anyone can see it and anyone can

00:16:18.930 --> 00:16:19.472
hang out with it.

00:16:19.992 --> 00:16:21.512
That's what open source wants.

00:16:21.953 --> 00:16:23.632
That's where open source succeeds.

00:16:24.213 --> 00:16:25.674
The more corporate interest you have,

00:16:25.714 --> 00:16:27.273
the more pull, the more support.

00:16:28.054 --> 00:16:28.815
It doesn't work.

00:16:28.854 --> 00:16:29.895
It's not free.

00:16:29.935 --> 00:16:30.874
Doesn't work that way.

00:16:31.395 --> 00:16:32.756
And I know that I think we talked

00:16:32.776 --> 00:16:33.396
about this before.

00:16:33.455 --> 00:16:34.315
Chris, you know,

00:16:34.376 --> 00:16:36.036
open source is free as in beer,

00:16:36.456 --> 00:16:37.637
not free, you know,

00:16:37.717 --> 00:16:38.557
or free as in puppy,

00:16:38.578 --> 00:16:39.318
not free as in beer.

00:16:40.338 --> 00:16:41.438
You can get free beer all you want,

00:16:41.478 --> 00:16:42.138
but puppy,

00:16:42.658 --> 00:16:43.599
you don't have to pay for it,

00:16:43.618 --> 00:16:44.858
but you do have to take care of

00:16:44.898 --> 00:16:45.018
it.

00:16:45.459 --> 00:16:46.540
And if we don't take care of it,

00:16:46.560 --> 00:16:48.339
someone will buy that puppy and

00:16:48.379 --> 00:16:49.400
genetically modify it.

00:16:49.420 --> 00:16:49.921
The next thing you know,

00:16:49.940 --> 00:16:51.340
everybody has a pug and those things are

00:16:51.381 --> 00:16:52.600
so sick,

00:16:53.800 --> 00:16:55.362
both because they're super cool dogs,

00:16:55.382 --> 00:16:56.901
but they have so many health ailments

00:16:57.362 --> 00:16:58.922
because people wanted a certain aesthetic.

00:16:58.983 --> 00:16:59.203
Well,

00:17:00.714 --> 00:17:02.374
you're now making another thing suffer.

00:17:02.935 --> 00:17:03.756
That's kind of the idea.

00:17:03.776 --> 00:17:04.816
When a corporation comes in and takes

00:17:04.857 --> 00:17:06.498
over, you're making a project suffer.

00:17:06.517 --> 00:17:07.517
You're not making it better.

00:17:07.998 --> 00:17:08.959
You have the opportunity to make it

00:17:08.998 --> 00:17:09.258
better.

00:17:09.619 --> 00:17:12.001
Just give it money and walk away.

00:17:12.340 --> 00:17:13.821
That will benefit you.

00:17:14.201 --> 00:17:17.164
That's also the story of Oracle and Java

00:17:17.204 --> 00:17:19.965
first, and then MySQL second.

00:17:20.205 --> 00:17:21.465
Actually, Java didn't have a fork,

00:17:21.526 --> 00:17:24.407
but MySQL had MariaDB came out for the

00:17:24.507 --> 00:17:25.169
exact same reasons.

00:17:27.589 --> 00:17:28.450
Yeah, I...

00:17:29.781 --> 00:17:31.041
I had a train of thought and I

00:17:31.080 --> 00:17:31.842
completely lost it.

00:17:31.882 --> 00:17:34.161
What was I going to think?

00:17:36.022 --> 00:17:37.323
Something having to do with that.

00:17:38.063 --> 00:17:39.003
I don't remember.

00:17:39.064 --> 00:17:39.363
Cool.

00:17:40.743 --> 00:17:41.523
I could go more off that.

00:17:41.584 --> 00:17:43.224
I mean, like, if you think about it,

00:17:43.244 --> 00:17:44.984
things like Java and Oracle is part of

00:17:45.004 --> 00:17:46.766
the reason why there is that kind of

00:17:47.286 --> 00:17:49.085
punk reaction in other open source

00:17:49.126 --> 00:17:49.626
projects.

00:17:50.367 --> 00:17:50.747
Like, you know,

00:17:50.786 --> 00:17:52.666
bad religion came out not because they

00:17:52.706 --> 00:17:54.468
thought that religion is bad.

00:17:55.435 --> 00:17:56.474
For those of you who don't know about

00:17:56.535 --> 00:17:56.935
punk rock,

00:17:56.954 --> 00:17:58.116
Bad Religion is not actually an

00:17:58.195 --> 00:17:59.095
anti-religion band.

00:17:59.475 --> 00:18:01.796
They were anti-televangelists because they

00:18:01.836 --> 00:18:03.156
felt that televangelists were taking

00:18:03.196 --> 00:18:03.997
advantage of people.

00:18:04.497 --> 00:18:05.858
But the easiest way to get that across

00:18:05.877 --> 00:18:07.557
is by naming the band Bad Religion.

00:18:07.858 --> 00:18:08.338
Two words,

00:18:08.537 --> 00:18:09.998
you totally get the picture right off the

00:18:10.018 --> 00:18:10.258
bat.

00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:11.758
But it's the same idea.

00:18:12.099 --> 00:18:14.040
They didn't like that there was a control

00:18:14.180 --> 00:18:14.800
situation.

00:18:15.259 --> 00:18:16.700
People didn't like that Oracle took over

00:18:16.741 --> 00:18:17.100
Java.

00:18:17.700 --> 00:18:18.001
Yeah.

00:18:19.193 --> 00:18:21.474
Not that Java is great, but sorry,

00:18:21.515 --> 00:18:22.116
Java folks.

00:18:22.195 --> 00:18:22.935
I'm just not a fan.

00:18:23.316 --> 00:18:25.459
I mean, in the nineties, it was great.

00:18:25.738 --> 00:18:27.079
In the nineties, it was necessary.

00:18:27.560 --> 00:18:27.680
Right.

00:18:27.921 --> 00:18:28.781
I wouldn't even say it was great.

00:18:28.800 --> 00:18:29.482
It was just necessary.

00:18:29.502 --> 00:18:29.602
Okay.

00:18:29.762 --> 00:18:30.102
Okay.

00:18:31.804 --> 00:18:33.825
But you know, it's, it's, it,

00:18:34.166 --> 00:18:35.786
the world has moved on and the same

00:18:35.806 --> 00:18:37.088
way that banks aren't using AS four

00:18:37.128 --> 00:18:37.748
hundred anymore.

00:18:37.828 --> 00:18:39.330
You don't really need to use Java.

00:18:39.811 --> 00:18:41.151
You don't really need to use Oracle.

00:18:41.532 --> 00:18:43.234
That's why they're trying to buy up all

00:18:43.254 --> 00:18:44.575
the data centers and like get all

00:18:44.834 --> 00:18:46.115
They're trying to get back in the game

00:18:46.135 --> 00:18:47.517
because they know they've suffered for

00:18:47.536 --> 00:18:49.438
like the last fifteen years.

00:18:50.438 --> 00:18:51.439
They're trying to get back in the game,

00:18:51.459 --> 00:18:52.159
be hip and cool.

00:18:52.238 --> 00:18:53.620
And I don't think that's going to work

00:18:53.719 --> 00:18:53.840
out.

00:18:54.259 --> 00:18:54.661
Oracle,

00:18:55.401 --> 00:18:56.622
sorry if you're not going to ever give

00:18:56.642 --> 00:18:57.001
me a job,

00:18:57.042 --> 00:18:58.422
but I said what I said.

00:18:59.853 --> 00:18:59.973
Yeah,

00:18:59.994 --> 00:19:00.995
we were talking about the sponsorship

00:19:01.035 --> 00:19:02.716
model, sponsored development.

00:19:02.796 --> 00:19:03.536
And I think that,

00:19:03.917 --> 00:19:06.198
so one of the things that I do

00:19:06.378 --> 00:19:06.879
in my,

00:19:08.360 --> 00:19:10.081
one of the hats that I wear is

00:19:10.240 --> 00:19:13.083
the interim president of the WP Open

00:19:13.123 --> 00:19:14.003
Community Collective.

00:19:14.283 --> 00:19:19.626
And that endeavors to provide a

00:19:19.967 --> 00:19:23.828
sustainable sponsored contribution model

00:19:23.889 --> 00:19:25.690
that is outside of this

00:19:27.312 --> 00:19:29.554
a single corporate entity just throwing

00:19:29.633 --> 00:19:33.136
money at a developer because yes there are

00:19:33.157 --> 00:19:35.738
some companies that that do that and can

00:19:35.818 --> 00:19:38.801
see the value in doing that but not

00:19:39.622 --> 00:19:42.804
honestly enough for the sustainability of

00:19:44.405 --> 00:19:47.327
insert open source project here right

00:19:47.507 --> 00:19:48.528
outside of like

00:19:48.944 --> 00:19:50.565
the people, the companies that,

00:19:50.905 --> 00:19:53.866
that truly, uh, like benefit from it.

00:19:53.886 --> 00:19:55.367
So obviously like I'm in the WordPress and

00:19:55.388 --> 00:19:56.007
Drupal space,

00:19:56.547 --> 00:19:58.748
WordPress has automatic Drupal has Acquia.

00:19:59.008 --> 00:20:01.090
They sponsor contributors because if they

00:20:01.130 --> 00:20:02.750
didn't, that is literally like,

00:20:02.770 --> 00:20:03.931
that's the only thing that's,

00:20:03.971 --> 00:20:04.431
that's their,

00:20:04.592 --> 00:20:07.033
that's their one cash cow is,

00:20:07.053 --> 00:20:08.314
is this open source project.

00:20:08.433 --> 00:20:09.893
And they are also companies that were

00:20:09.953 --> 00:20:12.936
founded by the founders of those, uh,

00:20:13.016 --> 00:20:13.696
of those projects.

00:20:13.736 --> 00:20:13.936
Right.

00:20:14.276 --> 00:20:15.717
Um, but other things,

00:20:16.157 --> 00:20:18.198
like I think about like how.

00:20:18.768 --> 00:20:22.196
PHP has been kind of suffering for lack

00:20:22.236 --> 00:20:23.899
of contributors for that number of years.

00:20:24.298 --> 00:20:26.824
And PHP is more important than either of

00:20:26.844 --> 00:20:27.665
those things, right?

00:20:27.825 --> 00:20:28.386
Right, right.

00:20:29.659 --> 00:20:30.840
It's foundational.

00:20:31.039 --> 00:20:31.960
Without the PHP,

00:20:32.121 --> 00:20:33.042
you don't get the things that go on

00:20:33.082 --> 00:20:33.501
top of it.

00:20:33.562 --> 00:20:34.422
Right, exactly.

00:20:35.764 --> 00:20:39.846
So I feel like in a perfect world,

00:20:39.987 --> 00:20:44.690
everybody who used anything on top of PHP

00:20:44.730 --> 00:20:47.113
would give a micro-sponsorship or

00:20:47.152 --> 00:20:50.155
something to someone or to a collective,

00:20:50.236 --> 00:20:50.436
right?

00:20:50.815 --> 00:20:53.418
But that's just not the world that we

00:20:53.478 --> 00:20:53.718
live in.

00:20:53.738 --> 00:20:54.939
So how do we...

00:20:55.739 --> 00:20:56.081
I don't know,

00:20:56.401 --> 00:20:59.986
make open source sustainable, I guess.

00:21:00.667 --> 00:21:00.866
Right.

00:21:00.947 --> 00:21:01.628
And I mean,

00:21:01.688 --> 00:21:03.029
that's difficult because right now,

00:21:03.090 --> 00:21:03.371
you know,

00:21:03.411 --> 00:21:05.353
you could just go to Cloud Code and

00:21:05.433 --> 00:21:06.374
write whatever you want.

00:21:06.555 --> 00:21:07.917
You don't really need, you know,

00:21:07.977 --> 00:21:09.759
so you don't feel, I feel like,

00:21:10.539 --> 00:21:12.241
we've reached the point where people don't

00:21:12.401 --> 00:21:16.104
feel it as much as they used to.

00:21:16.144 --> 00:21:16.905
When I was coming up,

00:21:17.405 --> 00:21:19.448
the PHP community is a great community,

00:21:19.507 --> 00:21:21.008
super welcoming, super inviting.

00:21:21.610 --> 00:21:22.470
You felt that.

00:21:22.591 --> 00:21:22.930
You're like,

00:21:23.091 --> 00:21:24.431
I'm going to use PHP because I like

00:21:24.451 --> 00:21:27.075
these people that make PHP and PHP tools.

00:21:27.434 --> 00:21:27.874
I love them.

00:21:28.196 --> 00:21:29.796
Same with Ruby, same with Python,

00:21:29.856 --> 00:21:31.218
JavaScript too.

00:21:31.257 --> 00:21:32.498
Toss them all together and you get a

00:21:32.538 --> 00:21:33.160
great salad.

00:21:34.440 --> 00:21:35.322
It was because of the people,

00:21:35.362 --> 00:21:37.344
but now you're working in a more isolated

00:21:37.383 --> 00:21:37.804
environment.

00:21:38.879 --> 00:21:41.163
I couldn't tell you the last time I've

00:21:41.183 --> 00:21:42.246
gone to a conference and heard someone

00:21:42.266 --> 00:21:44.269
talking about pair programming because

00:21:44.289 --> 00:21:45.732
you're only pairing with Cloud now.

00:21:47.142 --> 00:21:49.162
or ChatGPT or any of the other.

00:21:49.903 --> 00:21:50.584
I'll say, Claude,

00:21:50.764 --> 00:21:52.304
just use that as a standard for everything

00:21:52.383 --> 00:21:52.504
else.

00:21:53.863 --> 00:21:54.943
But honestly,

00:21:56.025 --> 00:21:57.904
we're missing the point of the human value

00:21:57.944 --> 00:21:58.604
of programming.

00:21:59.045 --> 00:22:00.144
And when you take the human out of

00:22:00.184 --> 00:22:00.525
it, yeah,

00:22:00.545 --> 00:22:01.686
you don't care about the language.

00:22:01.706 --> 00:22:03.466
You don't care about the project.

00:22:03.486 --> 00:22:04.946
You don't care about the tools anymore.

00:22:05.686 --> 00:22:07.866
You don't have a human face next to

00:22:07.907 --> 00:22:08.507
them anymore.

00:22:09.207 --> 00:22:13.708
And whether that's Rasmus or Matt or even

00:22:13.988 --> 00:22:15.648
DHH, who is barely human,

00:22:16.681 --> 00:22:19.263
um like you you you that association

00:22:19.303 --> 00:22:22.663
allows you to humanize the product um and

00:22:22.683 --> 00:22:23.965
when you humanize the product it's the

00:22:24.045 --> 00:22:26.085
opposite of what what we want to do

00:22:26.125 --> 00:22:27.625
right now which is like commoditize and

00:22:27.645 --> 00:22:29.546
like it's kind of like you know how

00:22:29.626 --> 00:22:31.047
everybody's saying like oh i'm so tired of

00:22:31.107 --> 00:22:32.688
netflix movies and all the movies come out

00:22:32.708 --> 00:22:34.929
they're all just gray and brown and black

00:22:34.988 --> 00:22:37.249
gray and brown like there's no pop in

00:22:37.289 --> 00:22:39.990
colors there's no excitement um this is

00:22:40.051 --> 00:22:42.072
what development's becoming and we have

00:22:42.112 --> 00:22:42.332
that

00:22:43.498 --> 00:22:45.239
It's difficult to then motivate yourself

00:22:45.259 --> 00:22:47.341
to go to a meetup and get excited

00:22:47.361 --> 00:22:48.102
about a project.

00:22:48.461 --> 00:22:49.622
It's difficult to say, oh,

00:22:49.661 --> 00:22:50.823
I have a couple of spare dollars because

00:22:50.962 --> 00:22:51.984
almost nobody has a couple of spare

00:22:52.004 --> 00:22:54.745
dollars anymore to support something,

00:22:54.825 --> 00:22:56.726
even with the micro micro support.

00:22:57.207 --> 00:23:00.367
Like it's it's difficult to bring yourself

00:23:00.448 --> 00:23:01.929
out of the world and say, like, hey,

00:23:02.008 --> 00:23:02.769
I want to get involved.

00:23:02.809 --> 00:23:04.551
I want to do something like I think

00:23:04.591 --> 00:23:05.450
that's what we like.

00:23:05.470 --> 00:23:06.411
That's our whole jobs.

00:23:06.431 --> 00:23:08.232
Our whole job is getting people excited

00:23:08.253 --> 00:23:08.773
about stuff.

00:23:10.017 --> 00:23:13.459
And I know I really reduced DevRel a

00:23:13.518 --> 00:23:13.998
lot there.

00:23:14.478 --> 00:23:16.459
But that is very much a part of

00:23:16.479 --> 00:23:17.059
what we do.

00:23:17.519 --> 00:23:19.081
And it's hard to get people excited when

00:23:19.101 --> 00:23:19.921
they're saying, well,

00:23:20.461 --> 00:23:23.323
the only products I use are Claude and

00:23:23.742 --> 00:23:25.804
Codex and VS Code,

00:23:26.024 --> 00:23:29.684
and everyone's using the same thing.

00:23:29.825 --> 00:23:31.246
It's the great thing that I feared when

00:23:31.286 --> 00:23:32.246
I first started speaking.

00:23:32.286 --> 00:23:33.106
The last thing we want.

00:23:33.667 --> 00:23:36.248
Everyone's in a gray cubicle making gray

00:23:36.287 --> 00:23:38.248
software for gray users.

00:23:38.869 --> 00:23:40.130
It's just all boring.

00:23:40.529 --> 00:23:41.469
It all looks the same.

00:23:41.851 --> 00:23:42.930
And I don't know if I'm allowed to

00:23:42.950 --> 00:23:45.452
swear, but it's kind of all shit.

00:23:46.093 --> 00:23:47.814
It really is sad.

00:23:47.853 --> 00:23:48.853
And I think that the only thing that's

00:23:48.873 --> 00:23:51.716
going to change that is people like us

00:23:52.395 --> 00:23:54.376
supporting and shouting about the value of

00:23:54.457 --> 00:23:55.857
open source and how to work with open

00:23:55.878 --> 00:23:56.158
source,

00:23:56.557 --> 00:23:58.098
how to build these communities back up

00:23:58.139 --> 00:23:58.359
again.

00:23:59.120 --> 00:24:00.700
Because they are fraying.

00:24:00.780 --> 00:24:02.121
They're not gone.

00:24:02.141 --> 00:24:02.802
They're not dead.

00:24:04.049 --> 00:24:05.671
they're they're just not as vibrant as

00:24:05.690 --> 00:24:07.151
they used to be and i think it's

00:24:07.171 --> 00:24:10.213
our responsibility to like get back on on

00:24:10.334 --> 00:24:12.575
social media hey you know vine came back

00:24:12.614 --> 00:24:14.796
last week it's now called divine start

00:24:14.816 --> 00:24:17.498
making six second videos about php and see

00:24:17.518 --> 00:24:19.279
if people don't respond they probably will

00:24:19.299 --> 00:24:23.582
i i think about uh i think about

00:24:23.741 --> 00:24:26.223
how when you uh when you are working

00:24:26.264 --> 00:24:28.225
with claude and you're building a thing or

00:24:28.245 --> 00:24:30.487
having claude build you a thing um

00:24:31.757 --> 00:24:33.180
Inevitably, it's probably going to be,

00:24:33.239 --> 00:24:33.380
I mean,

00:24:33.400 --> 00:24:34.680
if it's some kind of web application,

00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:35.843
it's probably going to be written in

00:24:35.902 --> 00:24:36.503
JavaScript,

00:24:37.363 --> 00:24:39.747
either Astro or Next.js or something

00:24:39.846 --> 00:24:40.787
that's trendy.

00:24:42.130 --> 00:24:43.051
But beyond that,

00:24:43.071 --> 00:24:46.014
there's going to be a bunch of underlying

00:24:46.054 --> 00:24:50.179
dependencies that it pulls in to do X,

00:24:50.338 --> 00:24:50.920
Y, Z, right?

00:24:51.459 --> 00:24:55.481
And because you're not involved in the

00:24:55.562 --> 00:24:57.882
selection process of those dependencies,

00:24:57.902 --> 00:24:59.584
like you're not the one that's like,

00:24:59.643 --> 00:25:00.285
what do I know?

00:25:00.325 --> 00:25:00.985
Who do I know?

00:25:01.045 --> 00:25:01.184
Like,

00:25:01.245 --> 00:25:02.905
what do I how do I find things?

00:25:02.946 --> 00:25:04.427
How do I discover packages?

00:25:04.507 --> 00:25:04.747
Right.

00:25:05.126 --> 00:25:07.307
Like we would go to Stack Overflow.

00:25:07.327 --> 00:25:08.768
We would go to our friends.

00:25:08.808 --> 00:25:10.709
We would like go to communities and be

00:25:10.729 --> 00:25:10.870
like,

00:25:10.910 --> 00:25:12.051
what do I use for this sort of

00:25:12.091 --> 00:25:12.290
thing?

00:25:12.470 --> 00:25:13.792
Run to Reddit for crazy.

00:25:14.052 --> 00:25:14.251
Right.

00:25:14.271 --> 00:25:15.692
Go to Reddit now.

00:25:15.853 --> 00:25:18.153
Now Claude does that for us and Claude

00:25:18.173 --> 00:25:20.255
finds the best packages.

00:25:20.694 --> 00:25:25.000
And so there's this distance between the

00:25:25.081 --> 00:25:27.324
person building the thing and the people

00:25:27.684 --> 00:25:29.346
building the things that the thing that

00:25:29.366 --> 00:25:33.372
you just built is based on top of.

00:25:33.552 --> 00:25:37.698
And there's obvious side effects of that.

00:25:38.198 --> 00:25:41.081
what was it like Tailwind I think like

00:25:41.180 --> 00:25:42.823
laid off a whole bunch of people because

00:25:43.264 --> 00:25:44.765
like their docs are just getting consumed

00:25:44.785 --> 00:25:47.307
by Claude and like I guess good to

00:25:47.347 --> 00:25:49.469
have really good docs but bad because

00:25:49.529 --> 00:25:51.952
you're just now screwing over like all

00:25:51.992 --> 00:25:53.854
these people all these people yeah yeah

00:25:54.914 --> 00:25:58.597
I mean, when I was at Spotify,

00:25:58.658 --> 00:26:00.018
I was laid off based on AI.

00:26:00.200 --> 00:26:01.861
They randomly put ten thousand names in

00:26:01.960 --> 00:26:02.280
AI.

00:26:02.642 --> 00:26:03.922
Daniel X, the founder.

00:26:04.583 --> 00:26:05.383
And I was like, all right,

00:26:05.883 --> 00:26:07.766
take one tenth of them and let them

00:26:07.825 --> 00:26:09.867
go and tell me what jobs they are.

00:26:09.888 --> 00:26:11.369
And we're going to replace that with AI.

00:26:11.389 --> 00:26:12.269
Three months later, he was like,

00:26:12.390 --> 00:26:13.371
I made a huge mistake.

00:26:14.271 --> 00:26:15.332
That didn't work out at all.

00:26:15.592 --> 00:26:16.132
It's like, cool,

00:26:16.152 --> 00:26:16.892
can I have my job back?

00:26:17.073 --> 00:26:19.514
No, but, okay, thanks, Daniel.

00:26:19.613 --> 00:26:22.213
But this whole idea,

00:26:22.234 --> 00:26:26.194
this whole replacement concept, you can't,

00:26:26.776 --> 00:26:27.335
you can't.

00:26:27.796 --> 00:26:30.296
There's still not writing code that is of

00:26:30.536 --> 00:26:31.177
value.

00:26:31.697 --> 00:26:33.217
A lot of these things are writing code

00:26:33.237 --> 00:26:36.958
that is so complex and so clever,

00:26:37.338 --> 00:26:37.998
so to speak,

00:26:38.578 --> 00:26:41.440
that for an average developer to discern

00:26:41.459 --> 00:26:42.140
what's going on,

00:26:43.940 --> 00:26:45.642
is now the most time consuming part.

00:26:45.662 --> 00:26:47.364
So instead of time consuming part, like,

00:26:47.424 --> 00:26:48.186
oh, we saved so much time.

00:26:48.206 --> 00:26:50.228
We're not writing code is taking as long

00:26:50.267 --> 00:26:51.189
writing the code as we were.

00:26:51.670 --> 00:26:52.130
Great.

00:26:52.551 --> 00:26:53.771
Where's your bottleneck now?

00:26:54.011 --> 00:26:54.093
Oh,

00:26:54.132 --> 00:26:57.296
it's reviewing the code that your crappy

00:26:57.415 --> 00:26:58.056
LLM made.

00:26:58.837 --> 00:26:59.337
Cool.

00:26:59.758 --> 00:27:00.799
So you're getting,

00:27:00.880 --> 00:27:02.481
instead of having three PRs a day that

00:27:02.542 --> 00:27:03.583
pass and go into production,

00:27:04.222 --> 00:27:07.384
You've got thirty five PRs that can't get

00:27:07.444 --> 00:27:09.165
processed by a single human being.

00:27:09.605 --> 00:27:10.947
You fired the rest of the team.

00:27:11.586 --> 00:27:13.047
So now the single human being is trying

00:27:13.067 --> 00:27:13.568
to process it.

00:27:13.969 --> 00:27:15.309
And the answers are so clever that they

00:27:15.350 --> 00:27:18.010
can't even dial down into what the

00:27:18.030 --> 00:27:20.073
dependencies were on the packages they're

00:27:20.132 --> 00:27:20.333
using.

00:27:20.412 --> 00:27:20.593
I mean,

00:27:20.912 --> 00:27:24.735
could you imagine if the Node.js left pad

00:27:24.795 --> 00:27:25.756
issue happened today?

00:27:27.355 --> 00:27:29.937
The world would fall apart because no one

00:27:29.957 --> 00:27:31.937
would know where that dependency was or

00:27:32.017 --> 00:27:33.396
who put it in the code or how

00:27:33.437 --> 00:27:34.356
to get rid of it or how to

00:27:34.398 --> 00:27:34.837
replace it.

00:27:35.678 --> 00:27:37.158
You just have a lot of, gee,

00:27:37.198 --> 00:27:37.738
you're right.

00:27:38.117 --> 00:27:38.978
I got that wrong.

00:27:39.077 --> 00:27:39.619
My bad.

00:27:40.998 --> 00:27:42.679
And you can't fix it because it would

00:27:42.699 --> 00:27:43.939
then go back and try to put left

00:27:43.978 --> 00:27:44.299
pad in.

00:27:44.360 --> 00:27:46.160
It doesn't exist.

00:27:46.279 --> 00:27:47.360
This is the true problem.

00:27:47.559 --> 00:27:50.040
The dehumanizing of writing the code is

00:27:50.081 --> 00:27:51.200
the true problem of AI.

00:27:52.280 --> 00:27:53.220
Let it assist you.

00:27:53.280 --> 00:27:54.362
Let it find your errors.

00:27:54.401 --> 00:27:56.001
Let it build your test suite.

00:27:56.856 --> 00:27:58.577
Let it do that, but write the code.

00:27:59.158 --> 00:28:00.378
Write the code at a human pace.

00:28:01.119 --> 00:28:03.719
I just got back from WordCamp US last

00:28:03.779 --> 00:28:06.440
week, and I was talking to John,

00:28:06.460 --> 00:28:09.642
who's on the security team for WordPress.

00:28:10.682 --> 00:28:13.264
And we were talking about how one of

00:28:13.284 --> 00:28:15.443
the things that they are having to deal

00:28:15.485 --> 00:28:16.985
with now, all of a sudden,

00:28:17.025 --> 00:28:18.686
pretty much in the last year,

00:28:19.665 --> 00:28:23.066
is that the AI frontier models are so

00:28:23.146 --> 00:28:25.447
good and they're so relentless that

00:28:25.467 --> 00:28:29.787
there's been such like a huge uptick in

00:28:29.888 --> 00:28:32.348
CVEs and vulnerabilities like disclosed

00:28:32.689 --> 00:28:36.489
because AI is able to trawl through the

00:28:36.529 --> 00:28:37.029
code,

00:28:37.469 --> 00:28:39.811
find things that no human has the patience

00:28:39.851 --> 00:28:40.651
to deal with,

00:28:41.151 --> 00:28:42.911
like find these weird intersecting

00:28:42.950 --> 00:28:46.151
connections and then like, here you go.

00:28:47.092 --> 00:28:48.932
And now it's on the security team,

00:28:48.952 --> 00:28:51.033
which is a bunch of humans, to, like,

00:28:51.353 --> 00:28:53.433
try to, like, sort through these and,

00:28:53.514 --> 00:28:55.575
like, figure out, like, which things need,

00:28:55.634 --> 00:28:56.535
like, immediate patching,

00:28:56.575 --> 00:28:58.016
which things need, you know,

00:28:58.095 --> 00:29:00.635
can wait because it's a more obscure path.

00:29:01.376 --> 00:29:03.937
And that this isn't slowing down in the

00:29:03.977 --> 00:29:04.498
near term.

00:29:05.238 --> 00:29:08.399
So, like, not only is there the, like...

00:29:08.978 --> 00:29:12.479
problem on the the user the developer side

00:29:12.600 --> 00:29:14.480
of like letting ai build the thing for

00:29:14.540 --> 00:29:15.782
you and like oh i screwed up and

00:29:15.822 --> 00:29:18.062
like oops sorry but there's the other flip

00:29:18.082 --> 00:29:21.764
side of that which is ai is so

00:29:21.824 --> 00:29:24.444
good at like finding problems that like

00:29:24.684 --> 00:29:26.545
which it's discovering all these new

00:29:26.584 --> 00:29:28.546
vulnerabilities that like a human like

00:29:28.565 --> 00:29:29.927
that creates a bottleneck on the other

00:29:29.967 --> 00:29:31.326
side too of like the human trying to

00:29:31.346 --> 00:29:33.948
review like all of the incoming uh you

00:29:34.047 --> 00:29:35.588
know like vulnerabilities and exposures

00:29:35.609 --> 00:29:35.808
yeah

00:29:36.808 --> 00:29:39.450
It's difficult for any of these LLMs to

00:29:39.489 --> 00:29:42.970
figure out what the severity of a security

00:29:43.010 --> 00:29:45.892
issue is because a lot of times they're

00:29:45.911 --> 00:29:47.052
discovering things that are extremely

00:29:47.072 --> 00:29:47.711
hypothetical.

00:29:48.732 --> 00:29:50.952
It's like, oh, if a user does this,

00:29:50.992 --> 00:29:52.014
then does this, then does this,

00:29:52.034 --> 00:29:52.933
we have this vulnerability.

00:29:53.014 --> 00:29:54.434
It's like, okay, cool.

00:29:56.055 --> 00:29:57.555
How likely is it that that's going to

00:29:57.594 --> 00:29:57.956
happen?

00:29:58.236 --> 00:29:58.375
Well,

00:29:58.395 --> 00:30:00.496
it's more likely now because the AI can

00:30:00.536 --> 00:30:01.876
now write the code to do that.

00:30:01.917 --> 00:30:02.796
Yeah, exactly.

00:30:03.096 --> 00:30:04.498
Well, now that I said it out loud,

00:30:04.678 --> 00:30:05.597
it's totally more likely.

00:30:06.218 --> 00:30:07.578
But yeah,

00:30:07.660 --> 00:30:10.181
it's like a weird cycle of things.

00:30:10.221 --> 00:30:10.681
And it's just,

00:30:11.123 --> 00:30:12.943
I think that those people who are

00:30:12.963 --> 00:30:14.865
responsible for reviewing things just

00:30:15.046 --> 00:30:16.146
absolutely blasted.

00:30:16.867 --> 00:30:18.409
Absolutely blasted with, you know,

00:30:18.450 --> 00:30:19.229
on the security side,

00:30:19.710 --> 00:30:21.972
so many potential vulnerabilities that

00:30:21.992 --> 00:30:23.874
it's hard to rate and repair.

00:30:24.874 --> 00:30:26.517
And it's not that the AI is wrong.

00:30:26.536 --> 00:30:28.359
The AI is usually right.

00:30:28.959 --> 00:30:31.020
What's wrong is our ability to properly

00:30:31.040 --> 00:30:31.741
interact with it.

00:30:32.832 --> 00:30:34.234
Like we don't know how to say like,

00:30:34.274 --> 00:30:35.173
yo, slow down.

00:30:35.934 --> 00:30:37.236
I can only handle like ten PRs a

00:30:37.276 --> 00:30:37.355
day.

00:30:37.375 --> 00:30:37.636
Right.

00:30:37.836 --> 00:30:37.917
Yep.

00:30:38.817 --> 00:30:40.578
Or I can only handle, you know,

00:30:41.380 --> 00:30:42.520
if you're going to give me thirty five

00:30:42.540 --> 00:30:43.121
vulnerabilities,

00:30:43.141 --> 00:30:44.623
give me the five that matter.

00:30:46.287 --> 00:30:47.788
And we don't know how to make it

00:30:47.828 --> 00:30:49.568
understand that.

00:30:50.669 --> 00:30:52.190
There's a lot of words that are thrown

00:30:52.269 --> 00:30:53.430
out when using AI.

00:30:53.890 --> 00:30:55.411
And I worked on the AI team at

00:30:55.470 --> 00:30:56.270
IBM for a while.

00:30:56.690 --> 00:30:57.631
And I learned that a lot of these

00:30:57.671 --> 00:30:59.052
words didn't mean what I thought they

00:30:59.092 --> 00:30:59.271
meant.

00:30:59.751 --> 00:31:01.292
Or what we think they mean in the

00:31:01.332 --> 00:31:02.872
colloquial sense is not how it applies to

00:31:02.911 --> 00:31:03.192
AI.

00:31:03.773 --> 00:31:05.313
So when they say things like context,

00:31:05.333 --> 00:31:05.593
to me,

00:31:05.632 --> 00:31:07.574
context means you understand what I'm

00:31:07.613 --> 00:31:07.853
saying.

00:31:07.873 --> 00:31:10.074
You get the references around which I am

00:31:10.153 --> 00:31:11.914
using unsaid words to describe the thing

00:31:11.934 --> 00:31:12.515
that is going on.

00:31:13.055 --> 00:31:13.295
Yes,

00:31:13.696 --> 00:31:15.457
that's not really what it means with AI.

00:31:15.517 --> 00:31:15.937
With AI,

00:31:15.977 --> 00:31:17.558
context means I have a full understanding

00:31:17.578 --> 00:31:18.459
of everything you're saying,

00:31:19.019 --> 00:31:20.039
and it doesn't.

00:31:20.141 --> 00:31:20.921
It never does.

00:31:22.382 --> 00:31:24.764
This is where all the weights and trust

00:31:25.203 --> 00:31:26.726
ratios and things like that come in.

00:31:26.986 --> 00:31:28.447
When you look at an LLM and you're

00:31:28.487 --> 00:31:29.208
evaluating it,

00:31:29.767 --> 00:31:31.469
understand what they're telling you

00:31:31.809 --> 00:31:32.450
straight up.

00:31:32.709 --> 00:31:33.790
None of them lie about it.

00:31:34.391 --> 00:31:35.912
None of the companies that develop LLMs

00:31:35.992 --> 00:31:36.553
lie about it.

00:31:36.932 --> 00:31:38.694
They are straight up telling you it's

00:31:38.735 --> 00:31:39.676
going to be wrong,

00:31:39.776 --> 00:31:41.937
thirty percent of the time.

00:31:42.157 --> 00:31:42.617
And people go,

00:31:43.537 --> 00:31:44.238
Well, it's going to be right.

00:31:45.758 --> 00:31:46.279
I mean, if it's right.

00:31:46.299 --> 00:31:47.499
Seventy percent of the time, I'm good.

00:31:48.401 --> 00:31:49.200
And it's like, yeah,

00:31:49.221 --> 00:31:51.882
but you're not you're not saying no to

00:31:51.922 --> 00:31:51.962
it.

00:31:52.023 --> 00:31:53.703
Thirty percent of the time is the problem.

00:31:54.184 --> 00:31:55.325
So then it thinks it's right.

00:31:55.384 --> 00:31:57.006
Now it's supporting its own wrongness.

00:31:58.366 --> 00:31:59.208
And that's that's right.

00:31:59.248 --> 00:32:00.768
It's not they're not human.

00:32:00.788 --> 00:32:01.469
They don't reason.

00:32:01.508 --> 00:32:03.569
They don't think they look at other

00:32:03.610 --> 00:32:04.351
people's work.

00:32:05.091 --> 00:32:05.751
I mean, to be honest,

00:32:05.792 --> 00:32:06.751
like going back to what we're talking

00:32:06.771 --> 00:32:06.911
about,

00:32:07.452 --> 00:32:09.133
AI is the greatest consumer of open source

00:32:09.173 --> 00:32:09.314
work.

00:32:10.736 --> 00:32:11.596
It would be great if one of these

00:32:11.636 --> 00:32:12.898
companies would give them some money for

00:32:12.958 --> 00:32:15.659
it, but we live in a society.

00:32:17.239 --> 00:32:19.500
But in all seriousness,

00:32:19.921 --> 00:32:21.962
there's a way to use these things

00:32:22.023 --> 00:32:22.583
properly,

00:32:22.942 --> 00:32:24.744
but they don't think it is a machine.

00:32:24.784 --> 00:32:26.104
It is no smarter than a computer.

00:32:26.565 --> 00:32:28.626
The only difference between modern LLMs

00:32:29.267 --> 00:32:32.348
and a Postgres or MySQL database is I

00:32:32.369 --> 00:32:33.748
don't have to say select star from users.

00:32:33.789 --> 00:32:34.110
I can say,

00:32:34.410 --> 00:32:35.611
show me everyone who uses this.

00:32:36.876 --> 00:32:38.076
And I get the same response.

00:32:38.757 --> 00:32:39.718
It's the same idea.

00:32:40.438 --> 00:32:43.498
And I think that that's our understanding

00:32:43.538 --> 00:32:44.660
of what it is has to shift.

00:32:44.999 --> 00:32:45.840
That's why I was saying before,

00:32:45.979 --> 00:32:47.200
understanding that it's just a tool.

00:32:47.680 --> 00:32:48.540
It's just a tool.

00:32:49.000 --> 00:32:50.461
It's not going to solve all your problems.

00:32:52.101 --> 00:32:52.361
And here,

00:32:52.500 --> 00:32:53.661
I'm not talking to you developers.

00:32:53.741 --> 00:32:55.021
You developers all know this.

00:32:55.462 --> 00:32:57.402
You all absolutely know this.

00:32:58.023 --> 00:33:00.784
Talking to you CEOs, talking to you CTOs,

00:33:01.245 --> 00:33:02.285
talking to anybody who has a C in

00:33:02.325 --> 00:33:05.145
their title, anyone VP, director level,

00:33:05.305 --> 00:33:06.805
any of you people who haven't actually

00:33:06.825 --> 00:33:09.187
touched a real piece of code in a

00:33:09.207 --> 00:33:09.747
long time,

00:33:10.648 --> 00:33:12.067
for the sake of all that is holy,

00:33:12.168 --> 00:33:13.449
understand that you're not solving

00:33:13.488 --> 00:33:13.909
problems.

00:33:15.229 --> 00:33:16.151
You're not helping.

00:33:16.632 --> 00:33:19.414
Enabling citizen developers is not doing

00:33:19.456 --> 00:33:20.958
the work you think it is.

00:33:21.678 --> 00:33:23.520
Let your developers use it as a tool

00:33:24.062 --> 00:33:25.462
and don't fire them.

00:33:25.683 --> 00:33:26.904
I mean, that's the main message.

00:33:27.286 --> 00:33:28.467
Without the human in the loop,

00:33:28.867 --> 00:33:29.508
this all fails.

00:33:30.750 --> 00:33:33.271
I think about a thing that I've thought

00:33:33.292 --> 00:33:33.971
about recently.

00:33:34.532 --> 00:33:34.773
In fact,

00:33:34.912 --> 00:33:37.294
a question that I answered a couple of

00:33:37.314 --> 00:33:42.776
times last week at WordCamp was trying to

00:33:42.875 --> 00:33:46.816
forecast what my job or the work of

00:33:46.917 --> 00:33:52.779
DevRel is in the future with all of

00:33:52.900 --> 00:33:53.600
AI and whatever.

00:33:53.660 --> 00:33:56.061
And I said, I feel pretty confident that

00:33:56.680 --> 00:33:58.562
my job will still exist in three years.

00:33:58.622 --> 00:34:00.582
Beyond that, I have no idea.

00:34:00.642 --> 00:34:01.662
I think that's pretty accurate.

00:34:02.442 --> 00:34:05.683
I feel like our job,

00:34:06.004 --> 00:34:07.623
the work that we do is talking to

00:34:07.663 --> 00:34:09.624
developers and only a human can really

00:34:09.664 --> 00:34:11.604
talk to developers because we're the ones

00:34:11.625 --> 00:34:13.405
that are communicating things and putting

00:34:13.486 --> 00:34:14.286
ideas together and whatever,

00:34:14.325 --> 00:34:15.146
even if we're talking about AI.

00:34:15.167 --> 00:34:16.007
Absolutely.

00:34:17.312 --> 00:34:19.232
But I also know,

00:34:20.013 --> 00:34:21.593
like there is a thing in the DevRel

00:34:21.613 --> 00:34:23.054
Collective Slack a few months ago about

00:34:23.094 --> 00:34:25.535
like there is a DevRel position from an

00:34:25.614 --> 00:34:27.414
AI company that was literally hiring an

00:34:27.515 --> 00:34:27.815
agent.

00:34:28.276 --> 00:34:29.635
And like, I don't know how that works.

00:34:29.936 --> 00:34:31.457
Who gets paid if an agent is doing

00:34:31.477 --> 00:34:31.776
the work,

00:34:31.796 --> 00:34:33.898
but they're hiring for an agent for their

00:34:33.938 --> 00:34:34.757
agentic company.

00:34:34.797 --> 00:34:36.117
And like,

00:34:36.158 --> 00:34:39.840
so all DevRel is agents open claw now?

00:34:39.860 --> 00:34:40.180
Right, right.

00:34:40.200 --> 00:34:40.559
Well, I mean,

00:34:40.580 --> 00:34:41.600
look at the job descriptions,

00:34:41.640 --> 00:34:43.500
run through LinkedIn and see if you're

00:34:43.520 --> 00:34:44.801
like, I like job description,

00:34:44.861 --> 00:34:46.142
DevRel specific job descriptions.

00:34:46.181 --> 00:34:46.421
Okay, cool.

00:34:47.201 --> 00:34:47.362
Cool.

00:34:47.401 --> 00:34:47.623
Great.

00:34:48.083 --> 00:34:51.448
Uh, forward deployed engineer, uh, agent,

00:34:51.728 --> 00:34:52.288
agent Wrangler.

00:34:52.767 --> 00:34:53.449
AI trainer.

00:34:54.588 --> 00:34:56.530
Our jobs are rapidly becoming not about

00:34:56.651 --> 00:34:57.750
educating developers,

00:34:57.990 --> 00:34:59.032
at least according to LinkedIn.

00:34:59.072 --> 00:35:00.172
So grain of salt.

00:35:01.473 --> 00:35:03.475
But it's not about educating developers as

00:35:03.515 --> 00:35:05.016
much as it is training AI systems to

00:35:05.036 --> 00:35:07.116
be able to build better documentation,

00:35:07.537 --> 00:35:09.859
write better AI consumable blog posts,

00:35:11.100 --> 00:35:13.020
do things that make more sense for AI

00:35:13.061 --> 00:35:14.642
to consume.

00:35:14.882 --> 00:35:16.202
That's what the focus is.

00:35:16.242 --> 00:35:17.863
And I think that we're going to learn

00:35:17.903 --> 00:35:18.545
pretty soon that

00:35:19.872 --> 00:35:20.613
Part of the issue,

00:35:20.734 --> 00:35:21.674
part of what's going to happen in the

00:35:21.715 --> 00:35:23.558
next three years, if we're not very lucky,

00:35:24.360 --> 00:35:26.725
is there's only going to be four products

00:35:26.765 --> 00:35:29.930
left and it's going to be clawed.

00:35:30.798 --> 00:35:34.362
chat gpt cursor and whatever the hell

00:35:35.521 --> 00:35:37.162
suite of products google is coming out

00:35:37.182 --> 00:35:40.286
with um it's gemini it's anti-gravity it's

00:35:40.365 --> 00:35:43.448
whatever um but whatever the suite of

00:35:43.468 --> 00:35:44.609
product those are going to be the four

00:35:44.649 --> 00:35:46.850
major players depending on who runs out of

00:35:46.890 --> 00:35:49.091
money first too because that's a whole

00:35:49.212 --> 00:35:50.413
that's a whole other bag a bag of

00:35:50.453 --> 00:35:53.955
candy but the problem is in devra we

00:35:54.035 --> 00:35:54.736
used to go out

00:35:55.415 --> 00:35:57.696
and say, hey, I represent this company.

00:35:58.156 --> 00:35:59.056
No, I use Spotify.

00:35:59.076 --> 00:36:00.156
I represent Spotify.

00:36:00.196 --> 00:36:00.716
We have an API.

00:36:00.857 --> 00:36:01.658
It's super awesome.

00:36:01.678 --> 00:36:02.277
You should use it.

00:36:02.837 --> 00:36:05.058
But now Claude talks to the API.

00:36:05.118 --> 00:36:07.078
So why am I talking to people?

00:36:07.718 --> 00:36:08.480
People don't care.

00:36:08.640 --> 00:36:09.799
They're going to use those four products

00:36:09.960 --> 00:36:12.160
and DevRel won't be necessary.

00:36:12.281 --> 00:36:13.560
That's the dark timeline.

00:36:14.540 --> 00:36:15.902
I think what's actually going to happen is

00:36:15.962 --> 00:36:16.902
a couple of these companies are going to

00:36:16.922 --> 00:36:17.201
flop.

00:36:18.209 --> 00:36:19.571
Um, they're going to either disappear,

00:36:19.790 --> 00:36:21.252
get bought up by the big ones.

00:36:22.192 --> 00:36:23.093
Um, they're going to,

00:36:23.114 --> 00:36:24.515
they're going to change and people are

00:36:24.535 --> 00:36:26.317
going to go back to going, uh, yeah,

00:36:26.337 --> 00:36:27.658
like AI is cool and it's fine when

00:36:27.678 --> 00:36:28.580
I'm trying to, you know,

00:36:29.689 --> 00:36:31.792
upgrade my silver medallion on Delta or

00:36:31.812 --> 00:36:32.172
whatever,

00:36:32.593 --> 00:36:34.835
but I don't really need it to be

00:36:34.855 --> 00:36:35.857
my date every day.

00:36:36.417 --> 00:36:38.239
There's a huge backlash amongst young

00:36:38.279 --> 00:36:39.321
developers, especially.

00:36:39.580 --> 00:36:40.703
They don't want to use AI.

00:36:40.743 --> 00:36:41.823
They want to write code.

00:36:42.103 --> 00:36:43.346
There's a desire to do this.

00:36:43.966 --> 00:36:44.767
At the same time,

00:36:44.786 --> 00:36:46.328
there's a huge backlash with older

00:36:46.348 --> 00:36:49.152
developers who are leaving the game.

00:36:49.212 --> 00:36:50.453
They're leaving entirely.

00:36:50.853 --> 00:36:51.294
Because they're like,

00:36:51.375 --> 00:36:52.656
I don't feel like I create anymore.

00:36:52.676 --> 00:36:53.578
I don't write code.

00:36:54.158 --> 00:36:56.402
I just check over the code that something

00:36:56.462 --> 00:36:56.962
else wrote.

00:36:57.504 --> 00:36:58.765
I'm not finding joy in this.

00:36:58.785 --> 00:37:00.227
There's no craft in my craft.

00:37:01.122 --> 00:37:01.584
I'm done.

00:37:01.904 --> 00:37:04.366
And we're going to have a problem because

00:37:04.466 --> 00:37:06.567
AI can't work without experienced

00:37:06.607 --> 00:37:08.890
developers and juniors don't want to work

00:37:08.910 --> 00:37:09.210
with it.

00:37:09.250 --> 00:37:10.652
So what does that leave?

00:37:11.272 --> 00:37:13.435
A bunch of crappy vibe coded apps that

00:37:13.455 --> 00:37:14.596
all look exactly the same.

00:37:15.236 --> 00:37:15.817
That's no good.

00:37:15.937 --> 00:37:17.980
So hopefully within the next three years,

00:37:18.000 --> 00:37:19.020
we're going to figure this out.

00:37:19.640 --> 00:37:20.741
We're going to get it sorted and figure

00:37:20.761 --> 00:37:22.484
out why the humans are still important.

00:37:23.004 --> 00:37:24.366
And DevRel will still be around so that

00:37:24.386 --> 00:37:25.247
we can still talk about it.

00:37:26.085 --> 00:37:30.491
I'm actually happy if juniors are, I mean,

00:37:30.531 --> 00:37:32.654
I know that kids,

00:37:33.835 --> 00:37:38.080
which I used to refer to anyone younger

00:37:38.120 --> 00:37:40.745
than twenty-five, I guess,

00:37:41.285 --> 00:37:43.687
which makes me feel very old at this

00:37:43.727 --> 00:37:43.888
point.

00:37:44.209 --> 00:37:46.571
Um, but I, I understand I'm, I'm,

00:37:46.893 --> 00:37:48.033
and like, cause I see all the,

00:37:48.053 --> 00:37:50.658
like the commencement speeches and the,

00:37:50.718 --> 00:37:51.879
you know, commencement address,

00:37:51.899 --> 00:37:53.402
they're talking about learn AI and

00:37:53.422 --> 00:37:54.402
everybody's boo.

00:37:54.422 --> 00:37:55.585
Like I, that's like,

00:37:56.165 --> 00:37:57.888
it thrills me that that's the case.

00:37:58.428 --> 00:37:59.671
I clap my hands every time.

00:38:00.210 --> 00:38:01.451
Because, like,

00:38:01.692 --> 00:38:04.734
one of the foundational issues that I have

00:38:04.774 --> 00:38:05.373
been, like,

00:38:05.453 --> 00:38:08.056
worried about since we all started using

00:38:08.096 --> 00:38:09.536
Cloud to write our code instead of writing

00:38:09.576 --> 00:38:12.359
it ourselves is if our job as developer

00:38:12.799 --> 00:38:15.160
is just reviewer of code or, like,

00:38:15.239 --> 00:38:17.261
orchestrator or architect or whatever,

00:38:17.821 --> 00:38:19.982
and essentially being that, like,

00:38:20.062 --> 00:38:22.064
senior engineer reviewing stuff...

00:38:22.904 --> 00:38:24.006
How do you get juniors?

00:38:24.466 --> 00:38:26.906
Because you can't you can't train someone

00:38:26.966 --> 00:38:28.727
to have all the context that's in my

00:38:28.768 --> 00:38:30.029
brain from like twenty years of doing

00:38:30.049 --> 00:38:32.750
development or your brain like and put it

00:38:32.790 --> 00:38:35.252
into somebody who doesn't have that lived

00:38:35.332 --> 00:38:35.872
experience,

00:38:35.892 --> 00:38:37.312
who hasn't gone through all of those

00:38:37.433 --> 00:38:39.473
failed experiments and like, oh,

00:38:39.513 --> 00:38:41.395
I tried this one time ten years ago

00:38:41.415 --> 00:38:42.676
and it totally blew up in my face

00:38:42.696 --> 00:38:43.435
because it was the wrong,

00:38:43.676 --> 00:38:44.417
wrong way to do it.

00:38:44.517 --> 00:38:45.517
And so I'm never going to do that

00:38:45.536 --> 00:38:45.736
again.

00:38:45.837 --> 00:38:46.018
Right.

00:38:46.158 --> 00:38:46.357
Right.

00:38:46.377 --> 00:38:47.879
Never like, you know,

00:38:47.998 --> 00:38:49.038
I believe that even though even those

00:38:49.098 --> 00:38:50.359
weird triggers of like,

00:38:50.899 --> 00:38:52.100
okay, I know what you did wrong.

00:38:52.181 --> 00:38:53.861
I know what's wrong here because I did

00:38:53.902 --> 00:38:55.484
it one time and it was so bad

00:38:56.024 --> 00:38:57.424
that it took me three weeks to figure

00:38:57.444 --> 00:38:57.705
it out.

00:38:58.306 --> 00:39:00.247
And you have to have that experience.

00:39:00.286 --> 00:39:01.547
Oh my God, it's so important.

00:39:02.669 --> 00:39:04.049
I mean, it's interesting because I also,

00:39:04.109 --> 00:39:05.190
I mentor people who are trying to get

00:39:05.210 --> 00:39:06.732
into DevRel a lot.

00:39:06.772 --> 00:39:07.111
And they're like,

00:39:07.413 --> 00:39:07.993
how do I get into DevRel?

00:39:08.073 --> 00:39:08.734
It's like, okay, well,

00:39:08.754 --> 00:39:09.453
how much code have you read?

00:39:09.694 --> 00:39:10.855
Well, I've used Claude too.

00:39:10.915 --> 00:39:12.837
Okay, so you're not in, no.

00:39:12.877 --> 00:39:14.138
You can go apply to Anthropic.

00:39:14.178 --> 00:39:14.977
Maybe they want you.

00:39:16.118 --> 00:39:18.321
But it's like, yeah, probably not.

00:39:19.125 --> 00:39:19.546
Um, they've,

00:39:19.585 --> 00:39:20.986
they've gone through more dev rel than

00:39:21.207 --> 00:39:22.748
jobs I've had in my entire life.

00:39:23.149 --> 00:39:24.910
Um, whatever's going on there,

00:39:24.971 --> 00:39:25.732
people aren't happy.

00:39:26.091 --> 00:39:28.575
Uh, but like in, in all reality,

00:39:28.594 --> 00:39:30.116
like you have to have some sort of

00:39:30.156 --> 00:39:31.698
lived experience to be able to relate to

00:39:31.738 --> 00:39:32.279
writing code.

00:39:32.939 --> 00:39:33.660
If you don't,

00:39:33.939 --> 00:39:35.681
what you get is like the large scale

00:39:36.102 --> 00:39:37.564
people are calling it citizen developer

00:39:37.603 --> 00:39:38.966
movement, which is.

00:39:39.585 --> 00:39:40.167
Ten years ago,

00:39:40.187 --> 00:39:41.348
we called it the low code,

00:39:41.408 --> 00:39:42.248
no code movement.

00:39:42.801 --> 00:39:43.622
Ten years before that,

00:39:43.643 --> 00:39:45.305
we called it People That Use Microsoft

00:39:45.424 --> 00:39:45.926
Access.

00:39:46.546 --> 00:39:47.306
And before that, it was, like,

00:39:47.346 --> 00:39:49.189
people who were really good at macros and

00:39:49.209 --> 00:39:49.850
spreadsheets.

00:39:50.611 --> 00:39:52.573
Like, this isn't new.

00:39:53.533 --> 00:39:55.116
You thought you could replace developers

00:39:55.156 --> 00:39:55.616
before.

00:39:55.656 --> 00:39:56.596
It didn't work out.

00:39:57.238 --> 00:39:58.118
You feel bad.

00:39:58.158 --> 00:39:59.020
Like, learn your history.

00:39:59.040 --> 00:39:59.120
Yeah.

00:39:59.741 --> 00:40:02.181
But the problem is we're going to get

00:40:02.201 --> 00:40:04.902
this slew of juniors, the kids who,

00:40:05.102 --> 00:40:06.663
it's the Gen Zs who are coming up

00:40:06.723 --> 00:40:06.984
now,

00:40:07.484 --> 00:40:09.424
who are going to graduate with CS degrees.

00:40:09.785 --> 00:40:11.165
And they might be super skilled and super

00:40:11.205 --> 00:40:11.585
experienced.

00:40:11.685 --> 00:40:12.364
I don't know.

00:40:12.464 --> 00:40:13.426
I don't hire developers.

00:40:14.006 --> 00:40:16.866
But the problem isn't their education or

00:40:16.906 --> 00:40:18.087
how they're educated on things.

00:40:18.448 --> 00:40:20.127
The problem is the real world experience

00:40:20.147 --> 00:40:20.888
is going to be lacking.

00:40:21.468 --> 00:40:22.968
Because you're not going to accidentally

00:40:23.009 --> 00:40:24.270
crash a system because you put a bad

00:40:24.310 --> 00:40:26.049
SQL statement in.

00:40:26.069 --> 00:40:27.471
Because Cloud's going to fix that for you.

00:40:28.754 --> 00:40:30.616
You're not going to have to get up

00:40:30.636 --> 00:40:31.017
at six a.m.

00:40:31.036 --> 00:40:31.977
because production went down.

00:40:32.638 --> 00:40:34.801
Because, you know, whatever.

00:40:35.281 --> 00:40:36.522
Devin's going to fix that for you.

00:40:37.803 --> 00:40:39.765
But when you wake up the next morning,

00:40:39.785 --> 00:40:40.727
you're going to look at it and go,

00:40:40.848 --> 00:40:42.149
I have no idea why this happened.

00:40:43.451 --> 00:40:45.352
And that to me is the terrifying thing.

00:40:45.732 --> 00:40:48.056
Because it's just, it's not...

00:40:49.343 --> 00:40:50.382
It's not experiential.

00:40:50.402 --> 00:40:50.984
Like you were saying,

00:40:51.004 --> 00:40:52.524
it's not something that someone could take

00:40:52.544 --> 00:40:54.464
to heart and go like, that one line,

00:40:54.504 --> 00:40:55.765
that one semicolon,

00:40:56.125 --> 00:40:58.205
that one thing screwed me up.

00:40:58.306 --> 00:40:59.846
I'll never make that mistake again.

00:41:00.067 --> 00:41:01.147
You'll make it six more times.

00:41:01.506 --> 00:41:02.948
But by then, it'll be ingrained.

00:41:03.707 --> 00:41:04.489
And you'll be like, yep,

00:41:04.649 --> 00:41:05.669
that's the issue right there.

00:41:06.968 --> 00:41:08.029
Without that experience,

00:41:08.330 --> 00:41:10.390
I don't think that we move forward.

00:41:10.431 --> 00:41:12.151
I think that things just flatten out.

00:41:12.571 --> 00:41:13.672
We no longer iterate.

00:41:13.692 --> 00:41:14.872
We no longer innovate.

00:41:15.433 --> 00:41:16.393
We just get stagnant.

00:41:17.861 --> 00:41:17.980
Well,

00:41:18.060 --> 00:41:20.622
I wanted to save some time because there's

00:41:20.661 --> 00:41:22.201
another thing that you do and have done

00:41:22.241 --> 00:41:23.982
for a long time that I heard about

00:41:25.062 --> 00:41:25.683
ages ago,

00:41:26.643 --> 00:41:28.743
which is open sourcing mental health.

00:41:29.524 --> 00:41:29.884
Oh, yeah.

00:41:31.064 --> 00:41:32.486
So I'd love to hear you talk about

00:41:32.526 --> 00:41:35.306
what that is and what you do with

00:41:35.366 --> 00:41:39.627
that initiative and how that sort of got

00:41:39.667 --> 00:41:40.007
started.

00:41:40.868 --> 00:41:41.187
Sure.

00:41:41.227 --> 00:41:42.368
So for me,

00:41:43.551 --> 00:41:44.852
It got started right at the same time

00:41:44.931 --> 00:41:45.712
as, as you know,

00:41:45.732 --> 00:41:46.513
we're going to go right back to the

00:41:46.533 --> 00:41:47.314
beginning of this podcast.

00:41:48.535 --> 00:41:50.056
When we sat down and said, all right,

00:41:50.076 --> 00:41:51.116
we're building this community team.

00:41:51.156 --> 00:41:52.018
What can we do?

00:41:52.939 --> 00:41:53.899
And we talked about, you know,

00:41:53.960 --> 00:41:55.921
documentation and speaking conference and

00:41:56.361 --> 00:41:56.801
we're like, all right,

00:41:56.821 --> 00:41:58.422
so what are the big issues in tech

00:41:58.442 --> 00:41:59.584
that we feel like we could tackle?

00:42:00.364 --> 00:42:01.765
So diversity and inclusion.

00:42:01.926 --> 00:42:03.426
So we, we wanted to speak at that.

00:42:03.466 --> 00:42:05.589
We were to be completely fair,

00:42:05.609 --> 00:42:07.330
a team of five white dudes.

00:42:07.350 --> 00:42:08.531
Sure.

00:42:08.571 --> 00:42:09.511
From around the world,

00:42:09.551 --> 00:42:10.792
but still five white dudes.

00:42:11.212 --> 00:42:11.794
Yep.

00:42:12.984 --> 00:42:14.665
And we knew that we could help,

00:42:14.826 --> 00:42:15.886
we could be allies,

00:42:16.727 --> 00:42:18.529
and we can speak to the problem.

00:42:18.989 --> 00:42:20.390
We can't try to solve the problem because

00:42:20.410 --> 00:42:21.471
we're taking up the stage time.

00:42:22.312 --> 00:42:24.152
But we did do things like try to

00:42:24.192 --> 00:42:26.435
bring in other speakers with us who were

00:42:26.895 --> 00:42:29.297
not white dudes, bring them on stage,

00:42:29.357 --> 00:42:30.977
pair with them on stage,

00:42:31.018 --> 00:42:33.821
do things live or interviews and stuff

00:42:33.841 --> 00:42:34.381
like that, promote it.

00:42:34.660 --> 00:42:35.241
And that's great.

00:42:35.502 --> 00:42:36.703
But the other thing we were like, okay,

00:42:36.723 --> 00:42:38.884
so the one issue that nobody talks about

00:42:38.924 --> 00:42:40.426
that's huge is mental health and tech.

00:42:41.355 --> 00:42:41.855
Um, so we,

00:42:41.915 --> 00:42:43.716
we started an agency at that point in

00:42:43.736 --> 00:42:45.437
time, we're called MH prompt.

00:42:45.457 --> 00:42:46.638
So mental health prompt, the whole,

00:42:46.658 --> 00:42:47.660
you know, prompt in a,

00:42:48.180 --> 00:42:49.321
in a terminal CLI.

00:42:50.040 --> 00:42:51.341
Ha we're so clever.

00:42:51.361 --> 00:42:52.582
Um, but, uh,

00:42:53.163 --> 00:42:54.524
we decided like the whole point of this

00:42:54.544 --> 00:42:56.826
was just to get people who spoke about

00:42:56.886 --> 00:43:00.087
mental health issues, who were developers,

00:43:00.649 --> 00:43:02.230
like they're not medical professionals.

00:43:02.270 --> 00:43:03.611
We made that very clear.

00:43:04.350 --> 00:43:04.551
Um,

00:43:04.591 --> 00:43:05.832
and one of the first people that we

00:43:05.872 --> 00:43:07.533
got to talk about this was Ed Finkler.

00:43:08.353 --> 00:43:10.636
Um, brilliant, brilliant guy.

00:43:12.395 --> 00:43:13.857
We made sure that we had money.

00:43:13.897 --> 00:43:15.297
So whenever someone was like, Ed,

00:43:15.337 --> 00:43:18.942
we'd love to come into our conference or

00:43:18.962 --> 00:43:21.623
come into our meetup and talk about your

00:43:21.663 --> 00:43:26.209
mental health struggles and what that led

00:43:26.228 --> 00:43:27.870
you to realize about how you work and

00:43:27.910 --> 00:43:29.652
how you deal with things as a

00:43:29.692 --> 00:43:30.953
technologist, as a human being,

00:43:31.033 --> 00:43:31.873
and as someone who suffers.

00:43:32.774 --> 00:43:34.216
And he was like, you know, great,

00:43:34.236 --> 00:43:35.317
let's do that.

00:43:35.357 --> 00:43:37.598
From that grew originally OSMI,

00:43:37.678 --> 00:43:38.819
open sourcing mental illness.

00:43:39.301 --> 00:43:40.881
We felt that open sourcing mental health

00:43:40.902 --> 00:43:42.462
would be a better way to talk about

00:43:42.522 --> 00:43:42.622
it.

00:43:43.084 --> 00:43:44.004
So we later changed the name.

00:43:44.605 --> 00:43:46.486
We eventually merged what we had at MH

00:43:46.527 --> 00:43:46.747
Prompt,

00:43:46.767 --> 00:43:48.687
which was like a speaker corral about

00:43:48.768 --> 00:43:51.471
fifteen different people and talking about

00:43:51.491 --> 00:43:53.993
everything from anxiety, burnout, ADHD.

00:43:56.853 --> 00:43:58.395
uh, with O O OCD,

00:43:59.296 --> 00:44:00.656
everything kind of on the mental health

00:44:00.696 --> 00:44:03.759
spectrum, including two doctors, um,

00:44:03.799 --> 00:44:04.379
who could speak,

00:44:04.399 --> 00:44:06.281
who are also technologists or also

00:44:06.321 --> 00:44:09.783
psychologists, like dig into the,

00:44:09.803 --> 00:44:10.444
what that means,

00:44:10.904 --> 00:44:12.667
but just having them go out and do

00:44:12.707 --> 00:44:14.207
real talks about things that affected

00:44:14.247 --> 00:44:14.408
them.

00:44:15.207 --> 00:44:16.428
Um, and I remember, you know,

00:44:16.969 --> 00:44:18.511
it was interesting for me because my job

00:44:18.531 --> 00:44:20.111
was basically to coordinate these speakers

00:44:20.712 --> 00:44:22.093
and make sure that like, Oh, someone,

00:44:22.873 --> 00:44:23.033
you know,

00:44:23.053 --> 00:44:24.895
someone at visa is doing mental health

00:44:24.935 --> 00:44:25.917
awareness month in May.

00:44:26.076 --> 00:44:26.156
Um,

00:44:26.357 --> 00:44:26.696
Cool.

00:44:26.716 --> 00:44:27.578
They need a speaker.

00:44:27.997 --> 00:44:28.277
All right.

00:44:28.319 --> 00:44:29.478
So who's available?

00:44:29.538 --> 00:44:30.080
Who's ready?

00:44:30.379 --> 00:44:31.201
Who's got to talk on deck?

00:44:31.301 --> 00:44:32.381
Oh, they'd like someone.

00:44:32.642 --> 00:44:33.863
They want Mary Thangval to go.

00:44:34.223 --> 00:44:34.703
Cool.

00:44:34.964 --> 00:44:36.085
Their focus is burnout this week.

00:44:36.105 --> 00:44:37.486
Then they want Greg Boggess next week.

00:44:38.406 --> 00:44:41.087
But seeing these speakers on stage after

00:44:41.127 --> 00:44:42.408
doing all the logistical work,

00:44:43.370 --> 00:44:44.850
I remember the first time I saw Ed

00:44:44.910 --> 00:44:45.911
brought tears to my eyes.

00:44:46.011 --> 00:44:48.114
It's like watching the people.

00:44:48.154 --> 00:44:49.694
And it's not just what he says.

00:44:50.094 --> 00:44:52.696
It's the reaction that people have.

00:44:52.756 --> 00:44:53.618
And we were lucky enough.

00:44:53.678 --> 00:44:55.018
I think it was in twenty thirteen or

00:44:55.038 --> 00:44:55.819
twenty fourteen.

00:44:57.123 --> 00:44:58.946
We had four of our speakers.

00:44:59.006 --> 00:45:03.969
So Patty Carter at the time was his

00:45:04.009 --> 00:45:04.290
name.

00:45:05.531 --> 00:45:06.411
Greg Boggess,

00:45:07.013 --> 00:45:11.815
Ed Finkler and Eli White all gave talks

00:45:11.897 --> 00:45:13.058
about their mental health struggles.

00:45:13.118 --> 00:45:15.299
I had fifteen minutes and the number of

00:45:15.319 --> 00:45:15.839
people were like,

00:45:15.899 --> 00:45:17.540
thank you so much for doing this.

00:45:18.321 --> 00:45:20.643
I never realized I had a problem.

00:45:20.783 --> 00:45:20.884
Hmm.

00:45:21.803 --> 00:45:24.064
Because when it comes to technology,

00:45:24.683 --> 00:45:26.245
we think of our tools like we're like,

00:45:26.344 --> 00:45:27.064
okay, well, you know,

00:45:27.585 --> 00:45:28.426
my keyboard is important.

00:45:28.466 --> 00:45:29.366
My computer is important.

00:45:29.645 --> 00:45:30.866
The most important tool you have is your

00:45:30.886 --> 00:45:31.127
brain.

00:45:31.986 --> 00:45:33.468
And if your brain works kind of funny

00:45:33.507 --> 00:45:36.149
or it doesn't seem to fit in with

00:45:38.069 --> 00:45:41.591
the neuro normative stereotypes that we've

00:45:41.611 --> 00:45:42.832
been given for our whole lives,

00:45:43.312 --> 00:45:44.513
then you're going to try to deny it

00:45:44.533 --> 00:45:45.393
because you're going to be like, well,

00:45:45.413 --> 00:45:46.453
my brain's not broken.

00:45:46.893 --> 00:45:47.853
Look, I'm writing code.

00:45:47.893 --> 00:45:49.174
I'm making, I'm making money.

00:45:50.268 --> 00:45:51.609
I'm doing what I need to do to

00:45:51.649 --> 00:45:52.370
live in a society.

00:45:52.830 --> 00:45:53.651
I'm not broken.

00:45:54.332 --> 00:45:55.272
Something else is broken.

00:45:55.312 --> 00:45:56.353
So I'm just going to ignore this.

00:45:57.094 --> 00:45:58.736
And we've unfortunately lost a lot of

00:45:58.776 --> 00:46:00.118
people in tech because of that.

00:46:01.478 --> 00:46:02.219
So to me,

00:46:02.259 --> 00:46:04.902
like being a part of this is probably

00:46:04.942 --> 00:46:06.143
much more important than any other work

00:46:06.163 --> 00:46:06.524
that I do.

00:46:08.203 --> 00:46:10.165
we've written guides for,

00:46:10.564 --> 00:46:11.384
especially after COVID,

00:46:11.404 --> 00:46:13.026
like how to handle being in a large

00:46:13.046 --> 00:46:14.125
group of people going to a conference

00:46:14.145 --> 00:46:14.346
again.

00:46:15.167 --> 00:46:16.806
We did that for CubeCon in Los Angeles

00:46:16.826 --> 00:46:17.667
in twenty twenty two.

00:46:18.107 --> 00:46:19.087
And people like, oh, my God,

00:46:19.127 --> 00:46:20.448
this is a this is a lifesaver.

00:46:21.109 --> 00:46:23.450
Like just as little pieces of it.

00:46:23.469 --> 00:46:24.730
Bring your hand sanitizer.

00:46:25.310 --> 00:46:26.991
Make sure you stay rested and healthy.

00:46:27.111 --> 00:46:27.770
If you're tired,

00:46:27.790 --> 00:46:28.790
go back to your hotel and go to

00:46:28.810 --> 00:46:29.011
sleep.

00:46:29.372 --> 00:46:29.892
The talks.

00:46:30.781 --> 00:46:33.602
will be recorded don't worry about it like

00:46:33.643 --> 00:46:35.343
it's going to be fine but it's these

00:46:35.364 --> 00:46:36.683
little things that often bring people to

00:46:36.723 --> 00:46:38.685
say like oh you know what maybe i

00:46:38.805 --> 00:46:41.406
do have adhd maybe that's why like after

00:46:41.446 --> 00:46:42.627
ten minutes of a conference talk i gotta

00:46:42.647 --> 00:46:45.227
get up and leave um you know maybe

00:46:45.268 --> 00:46:47.647
i just can't pay attention um but like

00:46:47.707 --> 00:46:49.689
that's that awareness is what we were

00:46:49.709 --> 00:46:51.290
striving for and i think that we've been

00:46:51.310 --> 00:46:53.750
pretty successful with it um it's a little

00:46:53.770 --> 00:46:53.931
bit

00:46:54.960 --> 00:46:57.321
dormant right now because conferences are

00:46:57.361 --> 00:46:59.761
too busy focusing on trying to get people

00:46:59.861 --> 00:47:00.721
into the doors.

00:47:00.741 --> 00:47:01.982
So they don't want to give too much

00:47:02.022 --> 00:47:04.964
time to non-tech related things.

00:47:05.123 --> 00:47:07.384
And that's unfortunate, I think.

00:47:07.884 --> 00:47:11.627
But I think that as AI psychosis kicks

00:47:11.667 --> 00:47:11.747
in,

00:47:11.767 --> 00:47:13.047
we're going to probably see more need for

00:47:13.107 --> 00:47:13.948
talks on mental health.

00:47:16.089 --> 00:47:16.248
Yeah.

00:47:16.288 --> 00:47:18.671
Well, thank you, PJ, for coming on.

00:47:19.210 --> 00:47:20.913
Where can people find you on the internet

00:47:20.973 --> 00:47:22.073
if they so desire?

00:47:22.553 --> 00:47:22.814
Yeah.

00:47:22.893 --> 00:47:23.513
So I don't know.

00:47:23.573 --> 00:47:25.116
Is this, is this video or just audio?

00:47:25.375 --> 00:47:25.815
It's both.

00:47:25.835 --> 00:47:26.837
Okay, cool.

00:47:27.196 --> 00:47:28.218
So if you're watching this,

00:47:28.618 --> 00:47:30.038
it says add a splenic next to my

00:47:30.058 --> 00:47:30.279
name.

00:47:30.600 --> 00:47:32.261
That is pretty much how you find me

00:47:32.361 --> 00:47:32.821
anywhere.

00:47:33.261 --> 00:47:35.502
GitHub, Xbox, Twitter.

00:47:36.183 --> 00:47:36.924
I'm still there.

00:47:38.464 --> 00:47:40.806
Mastodon, blue sky.com.

00:47:41.047 --> 00:47:42.806
Divine, because that's back, everybody.

00:47:42.826 --> 00:47:43.868
We're going to get Vines back.

00:47:43.888 --> 00:47:44.647
It's so exciting.

00:47:44.687 --> 00:47:45.788
Look at all these chickens.

00:47:47.288 --> 00:47:50.609
But yeah, it's A-S-P-L-E-E-N-I-C.

00:47:50.808 --> 00:47:52.430
You can find me at Esplenic just about

00:47:52.489 --> 00:47:52.870
anywhere.

00:47:53.310 --> 00:47:54.649
PJ Haggerty on LinkedIn.

00:47:55.651 --> 00:47:56.710
If you need to email me,

00:47:56.750 --> 00:47:58.471
PJ at devrelate.io.

00:47:59.491 --> 00:48:01.332
But yeah, I'm not super hard to find.

00:48:02.835 --> 00:48:03.216
Awesome.

00:48:03.317 --> 00:48:04.877
Well, thank you for coming on, PJ.

00:48:04.917 --> 00:48:06.180
It's been wonderful chatting with you.

00:48:06.881 --> 00:48:08.962
Thank everyone who might be watching this

00:48:09.263 --> 00:48:09.884
in the future.

00:48:10.805 --> 00:48:13.468
And yeah, we'll see you on the internet.

00:48:13.507 --> 00:48:13.687
Yeah.

00:48:13.747 --> 00:48:14.408
Thanks so much, Chris.

00:48:14.448 --> 00:48:15.250
I really appreciate it.