WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.196 everyone, welcome to Community & Code. 00:00:02.436 --> 00:00:04.564 I'm your host, Chris Reynolds. 00:00:04.604 --> 00:00:05.745 So quick question, 00:00:06.305 --> 00:00:08.667 what's scarier than speaking in front of 00:00:08.707 --> 00:00:10.648 your three hundred plus person company? 00:00:11.961 --> 00:00:13.442 speaking in front of eleven hundred 00:00:13.482 --> 00:00:14.723 strangers at DevRelCon. 00:00:14.823 --> 00:00:16.925 But that is what my guest this week 00:00:16.965 --> 00:00:18.787 did to get over her fear of speaking 00:00:18.827 --> 00:00:19.247 in public. 00:00:19.868 --> 00:00:21.489 And it maybe worked out a little too 00:00:21.529 --> 00:00:21.789 well. 00:00:22.730 --> 00:00:24.772 Jacquie Capur started out as a music 00:00:24.812 --> 00:00:25.152 major, 00:00:25.332 --> 00:00:27.174 but was already building Neopets and 00:00:27.214 --> 00:00:29.276 MySpace profile pages on the side before 00:00:29.316 --> 00:00:30.797 deciding that these computer things she 00:00:30.837 --> 00:00:32.859 did was actually something that she could 00:00:32.919 --> 00:00:33.980 do as a full-time gig. 00:00:35.012 --> 00:00:37.313 She landed in DevOps and eventually found 00:00:37.353 --> 00:00:39.854 her way into DevRel at AWS, HashiCorp, 00:00:39.954 --> 00:00:40.835 and now Nebius. 00:00:40.895 --> 00:00:41.615 And along the way, 00:00:42.115 --> 00:00:44.356 she ended up on a live coding reality 00:00:44.396 --> 00:00:47.257 TV show that was basically the great big 00:00:47.358 --> 00:00:50.479 British bake-off with a compiler. 00:00:50.519 --> 00:00:51.319 We'll get into that, 00:00:51.639 --> 00:00:53.100 but we also talk about something I didn't 00:00:53.120 --> 00:00:53.800 really expect. 00:00:54.661 --> 00:00:55.141 Wonder. 00:00:55.701 --> 00:00:57.862 The feeling of opening a door and finding 00:00:57.902 --> 00:00:59.063 something new behind it. 00:00:59.643 --> 00:01:01.684 Jacquie thinks AI tools might be giving 00:01:01.724 --> 00:01:02.464 some of that back. 00:01:02.792 --> 00:01:04.835 We also talk about what DevRel actually 00:01:04.895 --> 00:01:05.816 measures these days, 00:01:06.297 --> 00:01:08.099 why a human still has to translate the 00:01:08.139 --> 00:01:08.740 geek speak, 00:01:09.241 --> 00:01:11.203 and how she wrote an anniversary song for 00:01:11.244 --> 00:01:11.724 her husband. 00:01:12.405 --> 00:01:13.106 It's a fun one. 00:01:13.467 --> 00:01:15.229 Grab a coffee and let's get into it. 00:01:35.358 --> 00:01:36.580 Welcome to Community & Code, 00:01:36.600 --> 00:01:37.982 the podcast where we talk to the human 00:01:38.022 --> 00:01:39.084 beings behind the commits. 00:01:39.623 --> 00:01:41.866 And today I'm talking to Jacquie Capur. 00:01:41.947 --> 00:01:42.328 Jacquie, 00:01:42.568 --> 00:01:45.911 you've been in DevRel for like a really, 00:01:45.991 --> 00:01:46.973 really long time. 00:01:47.154 --> 00:01:50.477 Why don't you introduce yourself to anyone 00:01:50.518 --> 00:01:51.840 who might not already know you, 00:01:52.579 --> 00:01:54.402 talk about your background and what you 00:01:54.422 --> 00:01:54.503 do? 00:01:55.692 --> 00:01:56.111 Yeah, sure. 00:01:56.692 --> 00:01:57.053 Hey, what's up? 00:01:57.073 --> 00:01:57.873 My name's Jacquie. 00:01:58.654 --> 00:02:00.456 I've been in DevRel for a long time. 00:02:00.475 --> 00:02:00.936 I'm just kidding. 00:02:01.096 --> 00:02:02.418 I've been doing it for more than five 00:02:02.457 --> 00:02:03.018 years now. 00:02:03.038 --> 00:02:04.059 I've done a couple companies, 00:02:04.079 --> 00:02:05.580 including AWS and HashiCorp, 00:02:05.600 --> 00:02:07.061 and I currently work at Nebius. 00:02:07.883 --> 00:02:08.863 And generally, 00:02:08.963 --> 00:02:10.545 I'm a huge fan of live coding, 00:02:10.585 --> 00:02:11.705 building things in public, 00:02:11.786 --> 00:02:12.067 and just 00:02:12.747 --> 00:02:14.469 Trying to learn things together and seeing 00:02:14.488 --> 00:02:15.189 what we can do with that. 00:02:16.189 --> 00:02:16.930 Background-wise, 00:02:17.070 --> 00:02:19.533 I actually originally studied music and 00:02:19.633 --> 00:02:20.694 did a lot of music before I switched 00:02:20.713 --> 00:02:21.433 to computer science. 00:02:21.594 --> 00:02:23.235 And then career-wise, 00:02:23.256 --> 00:02:24.756 I have a platform engineering, 00:02:24.917 --> 00:02:25.997 DevOps background. 00:02:27.039 --> 00:02:28.119 Lots of infrastructure as code, 00:02:28.360 --> 00:02:29.780 registration, pipelines. 00:02:30.341 --> 00:02:32.143 How did you navigate? 00:02:32.302 --> 00:02:35.344 How did you wind up in DevRel from 00:02:35.405 --> 00:02:39.748 doing DevOps and, for that matter, music? 00:02:39.808 --> 00:02:40.829 How does that path work? 00:02:41.754 --> 00:02:43.135 There's a couple options here. 00:02:43.635 --> 00:02:45.959 So the original one was I used to 00:02:45.998 --> 00:02:46.519 do like, 00:02:47.159 --> 00:02:48.420 this is going to show when I started 00:02:48.441 --> 00:02:49.602 on the internet, but that's fine. 00:02:49.701 --> 00:02:51.483 I did a lot of like Neopets and 00:02:51.504 --> 00:02:54.126 like MySpace kind of like profile page 00:02:54.186 --> 00:02:57.030 editing and forum writing and, you know, 00:02:57.049 --> 00:02:58.650 like HTML tables with, you know, 00:02:58.691 --> 00:02:59.652 you Photoshop the picture, 00:02:59.691 --> 00:03:00.292 you do the tables, 00:03:00.373 --> 00:03:01.373 you make it look all fancy. 00:03:02.094 --> 00:03:03.116 I did a lot of that in like 00:03:03.135 --> 00:03:04.878 the early two thousands. 00:03:05.337 --> 00:03:06.738 didn't really realize that that was a 00:03:06.778 --> 00:03:08.459 career option and kept pursuing music 00:03:08.479 --> 00:03:10.819 which was fun and I had this conversation 00:03:10.838 --> 00:03:12.480 with my dad where I basically one day 00:03:12.500 --> 00:03:14.679 was like hey like I've been you know 00:03:14.719 --> 00:03:16.060 I've already been teaching music I've been 00:03:16.081 --> 00:03:17.741 running like volunteer programs I've been 00:03:17.781 --> 00:03:20.482 performing and I just don't think I want 00:03:20.561 --> 00:03:22.441 to do this anymore as like my career 00:03:22.482 --> 00:03:25.003 option and you know like those computer 00:03:25.042 --> 00:03:26.543 things I do like do you think that 00:03:26.584 --> 00:03:28.244 could be like a career for me and 00:03:28.584 --> 00:03:30.765 my dad was a math and science major 00:03:30.804 --> 00:03:31.944 so he was kind of like 00:03:32.911 --> 00:03:34.292 Yes, that is an option. 00:03:34.313 --> 00:03:35.915 You could totally do that. 00:03:35.954 --> 00:03:38.557 He was great because I never realized that 00:03:38.858 --> 00:03:41.100 maybe music isn't where the money will be 00:03:41.141 --> 00:03:41.560 or whatever. 00:03:41.741 --> 00:03:44.184 It was always very pursue what you're 00:03:44.203 --> 00:03:45.845 interested in and what excites you. 00:03:47.188 --> 00:03:50.130 As far as going from DevOps engineering to 00:03:50.210 --> 00:03:50.672 speaking... 00:03:51.792 --> 00:03:53.314 I actually started doing that because I 00:03:53.393 --> 00:03:54.994 was like terrified, 00:03:55.155 --> 00:03:57.057 like really scared of speaking in 00:03:57.077 --> 00:03:57.457 meetings. 00:03:57.797 --> 00:03:59.638 Like if the meeting had more than like 00:03:59.698 --> 00:04:02.601 my immediate team and like maybe like two 00:04:02.620 --> 00:04:05.083 stakeholders, I would like vibrate, 00:04:05.142 --> 00:04:06.083 like I'd get so nervous. 00:04:06.123 --> 00:04:07.323 And then I had to do like the, 00:04:08.124 --> 00:04:08.325 you know, 00:04:08.345 --> 00:04:09.926 what did your team do in the engineering 00:04:09.965 --> 00:04:11.446 all hands and sometimes spoke in front of 00:04:11.466 --> 00:04:12.067 the whole company, 00:04:12.107 --> 00:04:13.168 which is like three hundred something 00:04:13.189 --> 00:04:13.509 people. 00:04:14.168 --> 00:04:15.450 And that was like I was always really 00:04:15.489 --> 00:04:16.150 excited to do it, 00:04:16.190 --> 00:04:17.652 but also kind of like ruined my day. 00:04:18.311 --> 00:04:19.093 Like I was 00:04:19.392 --> 00:04:20.533 The whole morning leading up to it, 00:04:20.553 --> 00:04:21.534 I can't do anything because I was just 00:04:21.553 --> 00:04:21.974 so nervous. 00:04:22.013 --> 00:04:24.015 And then it took like an hour afterwards 00:04:24.054 --> 00:04:24.915 to kind of like reset. 00:04:24.934 --> 00:04:27.236 And I was like, this is not sustainable. 00:04:28.856 --> 00:04:29.535 So, you know, 00:04:29.736 --> 00:04:30.936 how do you get over something that you're 00:04:30.957 --> 00:04:32.376 scared of is you do something that's like 00:04:32.416 --> 00:04:33.378 significantly scarier. 00:04:34.197 --> 00:04:38.178 So I did like I think one meetup 00:04:38.219 --> 00:04:39.860 talk and then I did a main stage 00:04:39.899 --> 00:04:41.760 talk at DevOps Toronto in front of like, 00:04:42.239 --> 00:04:43.581 I think it was like eleven hundred people. 00:04:43.960 --> 00:04:44.261 Awesome. 00:04:45.021 --> 00:04:46.481 And then that just kind of started me 00:04:46.522 --> 00:04:47.001 in this journey. 00:04:48.180 --> 00:04:49.322 I always find it interesting, 00:04:50.384 --> 00:04:52.226 I've had a couple guests on the show 00:04:52.247 --> 00:04:55.813 before who are specifically in DevRel who 00:04:56.434 --> 00:04:58.035 have a very similar story where 00:05:00.191 --> 00:05:02.993 go getting into speaking because it was 00:05:03.034 --> 00:05:05.956 the thing that that like they had a 00:05:05.995 --> 00:05:07.458 block like that was that that was the 00:05:07.498 --> 00:05:10.039 hard thing and like getting over it by 00:05:10.078 --> 00:05:11.581 doing and i find it interesting because 00:05:11.620 --> 00:05:15.283 like we do like our job is in 00:05:15.703 --> 00:05:17.524 in the open with the people in front 00:05:17.565 --> 00:05:19.647 of the people like being the face of 00:05:19.666 --> 00:05:22.208 the company potentially like um so there's 00:05:22.289 --> 00:05:23.630 so much of of 00:05:24.390 --> 00:05:26.311 what DevRel is that is, 00:05:26.411 --> 00:05:28.733 that is public facing and public facing 00:05:28.833 --> 00:05:30.394 to, you know, a varying degree, 00:05:30.434 --> 00:05:32.076 but not small. 00:05:32.116 --> 00:05:33.737 I mean, greater than thirty, probably. 00:05:33.797 --> 00:05:34.898 Right. 00:05:34.918 --> 00:05:35.559 I would hope so. 00:05:35.618 --> 00:05:36.499 Right. 00:05:36.519 --> 00:05:36.959 Typically. 00:05:37.421 --> 00:05:38.000 Yeah. 00:05:38.081 --> 00:05:38.601 So, like, 00:05:38.841 --> 00:05:41.523 I always find it interesting that that so 00:05:41.543 --> 00:05:44.646 many of us like started very introverted 00:05:45.006 --> 00:05:47.428 and but and then we're still drawn to 00:05:47.468 --> 00:05:51.070 this really sort of extroverted role. 00:05:51.551 --> 00:05:51.791 Yeah. 00:05:54.219 --> 00:05:55.519 Yeah, I think, I don't know. 00:05:55.680 --> 00:05:57.002 I think I was always like the chatty 00:05:57.181 --> 00:05:58.022 engineer on our team. 00:05:58.063 --> 00:05:59.964 Like, you know, I like to air program. 00:06:00.005 --> 00:06:01.086 I like to talk to people. 00:06:01.245 --> 00:06:02.928 So nobody was, I think, 00:06:03.048 --> 00:06:04.950 particularly surprised when I did it. 00:06:04.969 --> 00:06:06.991 It was really sweet, actually. 00:06:07.091 --> 00:06:09.834 One of my teammates at the time knew 00:06:09.875 --> 00:06:11.777 that I was so nervous and they really 00:06:11.856 --> 00:06:13.258 supported and encouraged me to do it. 00:06:13.959 --> 00:06:15.200 And he actually gave me like a little... 00:06:16.781 --> 00:06:19.805 like a stress stone and i was just 00:06:19.844 --> 00:06:21.745 traveling for we were just on a tv 00:06:21.765 --> 00:06:23.288 show and we went for the finale and 00:06:23.868 --> 00:06:26.010 as i was packing that was like twenty 00:06:26.029 --> 00:06:27.871 eight twenty eighteen twenty nineteen as 00:06:27.911 --> 00:06:29.853 i'm packing to go to this finale i 00:06:29.913 --> 00:06:31.313 um found the stress stone again i was 00:06:31.334 --> 00:06:32.776 like yeah we're gonna bring that i'll just 00:06:32.796 --> 00:06:34.156 put in my backpack you know it was 00:06:34.176 --> 00:06:35.197 a good luck charm then it'll be a 00:06:35.217 --> 00:06:36.178 good luck charm now and 00:06:37.258 --> 00:06:40.801 I think it's just important to question 00:06:40.822 --> 00:06:42.303 yourself, challenge yourself, 00:06:42.342 --> 00:06:43.123 see where you can grow, 00:06:43.224 --> 00:06:45.484 and keep the people that support you 00:06:45.524 --> 00:06:46.906 close, basically. 00:06:47.947 --> 00:06:49.988 What was your introduction? 00:06:50.289 --> 00:06:52.830 You said you did Myspace and Neopets 00:06:52.890 --> 00:06:54.911 things. 00:06:55.012 --> 00:06:58.515 What prompted your interest in computers 00:06:58.654 --> 00:06:59.216 in general? 00:06:59.416 --> 00:07:00.916 How did you get into tech in the 00:07:00.957 --> 00:07:01.397 first place? 00:07:01.416 --> 00:07:01.856 Yeah. 00:07:02.697 --> 00:07:03.378 In the very, 00:07:03.438 --> 00:07:06.382 like even back before Neopets and MySpace, 00:07:07.264 --> 00:07:08.505 my dad was a vice principal at the 00:07:08.544 --> 00:07:10.868 school and sometimes he would go and work 00:07:10.907 --> 00:07:13.892 like evenings kind of late and I would 00:07:13.931 --> 00:07:15.714 go to school with him and he'd be 00:07:15.753 --> 00:07:18.156 doing his paperwork and like I'd be, 00:07:18.176 --> 00:07:18.697 I don't know, 00:07:18.717 --> 00:07:20.279 playing on my Game Boy or like reading 00:07:20.300 --> 00:07:20.841 a book and 00:07:21.320 --> 00:07:22.640 Towards the end, when he would finish, 00:07:22.661 --> 00:07:23.120 he would always be like, 00:07:23.140 --> 00:07:24.080 do you want to come sit with me 00:07:24.101 --> 00:07:25.202 and we'll play Wolfenstein? 00:07:25.221 --> 00:07:25.921 Okay. 00:07:25.942 --> 00:07:27.301 And so he would play video games with 00:07:27.322 --> 00:07:27.442 me. 00:07:27.522 --> 00:07:28.442 And I'm like, you know, 00:07:28.502 --> 00:07:29.541 I'm like maybe like four. 00:07:30.743 --> 00:07:31.842 I'd be sitting with him and he'd be 00:07:31.882 --> 00:07:32.623 playing these games. 00:07:32.702 --> 00:07:33.882 And from there, 00:07:33.923 --> 00:07:35.704 when I became old enough to sit at 00:07:35.724 --> 00:07:37.123 the desk myself and play the games, 00:07:37.204 --> 00:07:38.464 I started Neopets. 00:07:38.524 --> 00:07:40.664 And I think, you know, 00:07:40.724 --> 00:07:42.865 his interest in it kind of passed along 00:07:42.904 --> 00:07:43.664 to me pretty young. 00:07:43.745 --> 00:07:45.484 And I had like, you know, 00:07:45.505 --> 00:07:46.904 a GameCube N-sixty-four. 00:07:46.984 --> 00:07:49.166 And I liked gaming and I liked being 00:07:49.185 --> 00:07:49.645 on the computer. 00:07:49.745 --> 00:07:49.986 So yeah. 00:07:50.166 --> 00:07:56.729 It just felt normal. 00:07:57.109 --> 00:08:01.993 How did you shift from into DevOps 00:08:02.032 --> 00:08:05.175 specifically? 00:08:05.234 --> 00:08:06.755 I feel like that's kind of niche. 00:08:09.577 --> 00:08:11.599 I decided I was going to search into 00:08:11.618 --> 00:08:12.339 computer science, 00:08:12.519 --> 00:08:14.560 and I did a year of Comp Sci. 00:08:15.080 --> 00:08:16.221 And then I had a friend who had 00:08:16.241 --> 00:08:17.123 a friend who was hiring. 00:08:17.882 --> 00:08:19.925 And the friend's friend basically was 00:08:19.945 --> 00:08:21.767 like, we have two job postings. 00:08:22.108 --> 00:08:23.589 We'll interview you and, you know, 00:08:23.649 --> 00:08:25.611 we won't necessarily tell you which one's 00:08:25.652 --> 00:08:25.892 which. 00:08:25.931 --> 00:08:27.594 We're just going to tell you like the 00:08:27.613 --> 00:08:30.416 descriptions and then you can pick what 00:08:30.437 --> 00:08:31.959 sounds more interesting to you. 00:08:32.839 --> 00:08:34.301 And I think at that time, 00:08:35.462 --> 00:08:36.683 just going through the descriptions of it, 00:08:36.844 --> 00:08:38.565 I really liked the idea of that full 00:08:38.584 --> 00:08:38.925 picture. 00:08:39.385 --> 00:08:42.288 I liked being able to touch something and 00:08:42.327 --> 00:08:43.849 see where does the data come from? 00:08:44.130 --> 00:08:45.390 How does it hook into the pipelines? 00:08:46.291 --> 00:08:46.873 At the time, 00:08:47.512 --> 00:08:51.055 we were doing backup tapes and we were 00:08:51.075 --> 00:08:52.678 SCPing files over to servers. 00:08:52.757 --> 00:08:53.959 And it was... 00:08:54.935 --> 00:08:56.058 a little bit different than how it is 00:08:56.098 --> 00:08:56.397 today. 00:08:56.878 --> 00:09:00.022 But I mostly loved that big picture view 00:09:00.043 --> 00:09:01.204 that came with doing DevOps. 00:09:01.264 --> 00:09:02.885 And I liked being able to take something 00:09:02.906 --> 00:09:04.748 and make it feel a little more efficient 00:09:04.829 --> 00:09:05.490 or a little better. 00:09:07.202 --> 00:09:09.601 Yeah, brought a lot of joy to me. 00:09:09.621 --> 00:09:10.462 Yeah, that's awesome. 00:09:13.243 --> 00:09:15.144 One of the things that you mentioned in 00:09:15.644 --> 00:09:17.664 the email, the intake thing, 00:09:18.704 --> 00:09:22.704 was that you were on a reality show. 00:09:23.344 --> 00:09:27.526 And I'm interested to know how that came 00:09:27.565 --> 00:09:28.945 to be, how you got involved, 00:09:28.966 --> 00:09:30.166 what that was like. 00:09:30.726 --> 00:09:31.027 Yeah. 00:09:31.947 --> 00:09:32.246 Yeah. 00:09:32.426 --> 00:09:34.788 So it's through CodeTV with Jason 00:09:34.827 --> 00:09:37.529 Langsdorf and Kelsey Hightower was the 00:09:37.570 --> 00:09:38.329 host for this one. 00:09:39.390 --> 00:09:40.651 And one of my friends reached out to 00:09:40.671 --> 00:09:42.192 me and basically said like, hey, 00:09:42.252 --> 00:09:43.913 like I heard one of our teams is 00:09:43.952 --> 00:09:45.714 working with CodeTV and they're going to 00:09:45.733 --> 00:09:48.394 be doing a like live coding kind of 00:09:48.815 --> 00:09:49.315 series. 00:09:50.156 --> 00:09:51.495 And I think you should apply. 00:09:51.536 --> 00:09:52.837 And I was like, OK, 00:09:52.937 --> 00:09:54.217 that sounds like right up my alley. 00:09:54.598 --> 00:09:54.757 Sure. 00:09:54.798 --> 00:09:55.077 Why not? 00:09:55.098 --> 00:09:55.558 Let's do it. 00:09:56.678 --> 00:09:58.440 Sat down, asked my husband, I was like, 00:09:58.479 --> 00:09:59.440 do you want to like 00:10:00.738 --> 00:10:00.957 you know, 00:10:00.998 --> 00:10:02.858 maybe go on a live show with me? 00:10:02.878 --> 00:10:05.200 And he was just like, yeah. 00:10:05.221 --> 00:10:06.441 We were like, okay. 00:10:06.902 --> 00:10:07.941 So we filled out the form and it 00:10:07.963 --> 00:10:09.062 was basically like, you know, 00:10:09.103 --> 00:10:11.163 like you have to say like who your 00:10:11.204 --> 00:10:12.004 partner is going to be. 00:10:12.065 --> 00:10:12.224 Like, 00:10:12.264 --> 00:10:13.026 why do you think you'd be a good 00:10:13.046 --> 00:10:13.746 fit for the show? 00:10:13.825 --> 00:10:15.406 And it was basically like a, Hey, 00:10:15.426 --> 00:10:15.586 you know, 00:10:15.607 --> 00:10:17.068 I've been live coding on Twitch for a 00:10:17.088 --> 00:10:17.929 few years now. 00:10:18.028 --> 00:10:19.690 And I think this would be a really 00:10:19.749 --> 00:10:21.970 fun opportunity to like just build stuff 00:10:22.011 --> 00:10:22.691 and see where it goes. 00:10:22.711 --> 00:10:24.652 Cause I've never tried to build like a 00:10:24.713 --> 00:10:26.913 business from scratch or startup or 00:10:26.974 --> 00:10:27.374 product. 00:10:27.514 --> 00:10:28.775 Like I've always been on the DevOps set. 00:10:28.815 --> 00:10:29.036 Right. 00:10:29.055 --> 00:10:29.376 So I'm like, 00:10:29.855 --> 00:10:30.656 Usually taking things, 00:10:30.857 --> 00:10:32.657 make sure they get places safer, faster. 00:10:33.238 --> 00:10:35.599 I'm not usually doing the UI or the 00:10:35.879 --> 00:10:36.820 user experience. 00:10:37.041 --> 00:10:37.661 And so to me, 00:10:37.700 --> 00:10:39.061 that seemed like it'd be a really great 00:10:39.402 --> 00:10:41.704 growth opportunity. 00:10:41.903 --> 00:10:43.945 Getting on the show was crazy because then 00:10:44.246 --> 00:10:46.406 there's eight different teams. 00:10:46.467 --> 00:10:48.147 Every single week, a team goes home. 00:10:48.307 --> 00:10:49.569 It's like Great British Bake Off, 00:10:49.608 --> 00:10:51.009 but you're coding and building an app 00:10:51.050 --> 00:10:53.232 instead of building a cake or pastry. 00:10:54.431 --> 00:10:55.132 Not to say that's not hard, 00:10:55.272 --> 00:10:56.753 that that is challenging, 00:10:56.873 --> 00:10:58.334 more just framing the problem. 00:10:58.714 --> 00:11:01.876 But it was, yeah, 00:11:01.896 --> 00:11:03.277 it was such an interesting experience 00:11:03.296 --> 00:11:04.056 because, you know, 00:11:04.117 --> 00:11:06.538 week one we come in and Kelsey Hightower's 00:11:06.559 --> 00:11:09.479 there and Darko Miseros from AWS is there 00:11:09.520 --> 00:11:10.801 and Jason's there and they're kind of 00:11:10.820 --> 00:11:12.561 like, hello, teams, like, welcome, like, 00:11:12.902 --> 00:11:14.062 hope you're ready to build, like, 00:11:14.083 --> 00:11:15.083 somebody's going home today. 00:11:15.162 --> 00:11:17.163 So, you know, hit the ground running. 00:11:17.204 --> 00:11:17.805 Let's see what you do. 00:11:18.525 --> 00:11:19.365 It was like pitch week. 00:11:19.406 --> 00:11:21.107 So it's actually like a no code week 00:11:21.127 --> 00:11:21.988 where it was like, OK, 00:11:22.568 --> 00:11:23.328 we just got to sit down, 00:11:23.368 --> 00:11:24.108 build a business. 00:11:24.128 --> 00:11:24.950 There's a lot of fun, 00:11:24.989 --> 00:11:26.590 like mini games and challenges. 00:11:26.671 --> 00:11:28.592 And yeah, I think overall, 00:11:28.612 --> 00:11:30.333 the experience was really fun. 00:11:30.373 --> 00:11:32.214 Like we became friends with the rest of 00:11:32.234 --> 00:11:32.994 the cast because, you know, 00:11:33.014 --> 00:11:34.595 you're seeing each other like four days a 00:11:34.636 --> 00:11:35.897 week for six, six, 00:11:35.916 --> 00:11:37.137 up to six weeks in a row and 00:11:37.578 --> 00:11:38.219 getting breakfast, 00:11:38.258 --> 00:11:39.280 lunch and dinner together. 00:11:40.139 --> 00:11:40.320 You know, 00:11:40.339 --> 00:11:41.801 you're in this crazy experience together. 00:11:41.961 --> 00:11:43.443 But it was really fun. 00:11:44.463 --> 00:11:45.383 The amount of times I was like, 00:11:45.444 --> 00:11:46.405 if you'd asked me if I could have 00:11:46.425 --> 00:11:47.185 built this in one day, 00:11:47.205 --> 00:11:47.965 I would have told you no. 00:11:47.985 --> 00:11:49.066 It was more than four. 00:11:49.547 --> 00:11:52.070 More than four times I said that. 00:11:52.109 --> 00:11:53.771 Did you have to fly out for filming 00:11:53.810 --> 00:11:54.031 then? 00:11:54.691 --> 00:11:54.892 Yeah, 00:11:54.931 --> 00:11:57.434 we were going to Portland every week. 00:11:57.733 --> 00:11:58.494 Wow, every week. 00:11:59.175 --> 00:12:00.477 So you were flying out to Portland and 00:12:00.497 --> 00:12:02.277 then flying home and then flying back out 00:12:02.297 --> 00:12:02.657 the next... Wow. 00:12:04.007 --> 00:12:04.328 Wow. 00:12:04.368 --> 00:12:04.608 Yeah. 00:12:04.708 --> 00:12:05.768 So that was a little crazy because, 00:12:05.788 --> 00:12:06.989 you know, that Monday, Tuesday, 00:12:07.030 --> 00:12:08.791 I was doing twelve hour days to try 00:12:08.850 --> 00:12:10.451 and stay ahead of my work and everything. 00:12:10.512 --> 00:12:12.272 And then the Wednesday, I think, 00:12:12.333 --> 00:12:13.574 was another ten hour days. 00:12:13.794 --> 00:12:15.054 And then Thursday, you know, 00:12:15.094 --> 00:12:16.334 Wednesday was twelve as well. 00:12:16.374 --> 00:12:17.355 And then Thursday was ten. 00:12:17.396 --> 00:12:18.857 And then some of that is like on 00:12:18.897 --> 00:12:19.316 the plane. 00:12:19.336 --> 00:12:20.478 Some of it's in the hotel room after 00:12:20.498 --> 00:12:21.057 we get there. 00:12:21.578 --> 00:12:21.979 And Friday, 00:12:22.018 --> 00:12:24.099 Saturdays to twelve hour days with the 00:12:24.119 --> 00:12:26.001 studio where you're coming in at seven, 00:12:26.021 --> 00:12:27.021 you're getting breakfast, you're, 00:12:27.342 --> 00:12:27.502 you know, 00:12:27.522 --> 00:12:28.762 you're getting hair and makeup camera 00:12:28.782 --> 00:12:29.022 ready. 00:12:30.022 --> 00:12:31.824 wardrobe was fantastic the whole like the 00:12:31.863 --> 00:12:33.805 whole it was very professional like you 00:12:33.825 --> 00:12:35.585 walked in there's a whole crew and 00:12:35.605 --> 00:12:38.828 everything and then I don't know I think 00:12:38.848 --> 00:12:40.408 it was like two sets of four hours 00:12:40.449 --> 00:12:42.589 roughly filming it depended on the day and 00:12:42.609 --> 00:12:45.092 then come like come back with the team 00:12:45.112 --> 00:12:46.092 we had it was cute we had this 00:12:46.132 --> 00:12:47.772 spinner bus that the whole cast was on 00:12:47.932 --> 00:12:49.574 together for the most part you know 00:12:49.594 --> 00:12:50.775 there'd be all of us just in this 00:12:50.795 --> 00:12:51.916 bus on our way there for like it's 00:12:51.955 --> 00:12:54.097 like a forty minute drive ish we'd all 00:12:54.117 --> 00:12:55.257 just be sitting there like so what do 00:12:55.277 --> 00:12:56.177 you think they're gonna get us to do 00:12:56.198 --> 00:12:56.978 today and 00:12:58.138 --> 00:12:59.200 Never talking about, like, 00:12:59.681 --> 00:13:01.023 never talking about who's going home until 00:13:01.044 --> 00:13:04.167 the end because, you know, good vibes. 00:13:04.187 --> 00:13:06.431 But, yeah, it was fun. 00:13:06.451 --> 00:13:07.834 What was the app that you built or 00:13:07.893 --> 00:13:10.797 the business that you built, 00:13:10.878 --> 00:13:11.638 I guess I should say? 00:13:12.277 --> 00:13:13.378 Yeah. 00:13:13.397 --> 00:13:14.698 Part of it was that my husband and 00:13:14.718 --> 00:13:15.479 I both, 00:13:15.998 --> 00:13:17.520 he's an engineering manager for an SRE 00:13:17.540 --> 00:13:19.121 team at a security company. 00:13:19.141 --> 00:13:20.862 They do NDR stuff. 00:13:21.502 --> 00:13:22.603 So for us, we were like, 00:13:23.003 --> 00:13:24.123 we think it'd be really fun to play 00:13:24.143 --> 00:13:24.763 with agents. 00:13:24.783 --> 00:13:25.204 Like we, 00:13:25.264 --> 00:13:26.665 neither of us have really gotten to do 00:13:26.844 --> 00:13:28.225 that much agentic work yet. 00:13:29.206 --> 00:13:31.568 And some problems that I was kind of 00:13:31.608 --> 00:13:33.569 running into at the time was with DevRel, 00:13:33.589 --> 00:13:33.969 like, you know, 00:13:33.989 --> 00:13:35.570 you want to create a launch story. 00:13:35.590 --> 00:13:37.230 You want to have a new feature, 00:13:37.251 --> 00:13:37.992 have a new product. 00:13:38.012 --> 00:13:39.672 You want to talk about what a good 00:13:39.693 --> 00:13:39.833 product 00:13:40.570 --> 00:13:42.233 like a good story after that looks like 00:13:42.272 --> 00:13:44.514 like the you know the full picture so 00:13:44.575 --> 00:13:45.916 we built something called launch buddy 00:13:45.935 --> 00:13:47.257 where the idea is that you could just 00:13:47.296 --> 00:13:49.158 kind of take an idea and get a 00:13:49.179 --> 00:13:50.820 bunch of different like transcripts like i 00:13:50.839 --> 00:13:52.661 built like a i think it was like 00:13:52.701 --> 00:13:54.623 a sub-agent orchestration pipeline that 00:13:54.643 --> 00:13:57.506 would take your copywriting you know um 00:13:57.526 --> 00:13:59.147 compare it against like other posts in 00:13:59.166 --> 00:14:00.748 your space see what's going viral like 00:14:00.768 --> 00:14:02.830 what are other people talking about do 00:14:02.850 --> 00:14:04.451 like some like come up with like twenty 00:14:04.492 --> 00:14:04.852 hooks 00:14:05.573 --> 00:14:06.174 test those, 00:14:06.214 --> 00:14:08.035 do some evals and kind of give you 00:14:08.075 --> 00:14:09.075 like a template of like, 00:14:09.276 --> 00:14:10.436 so if this is a message you wanted 00:14:10.456 --> 00:14:10.797 to do, 00:14:10.838 --> 00:14:11.998 this is the way that you could approach 00:14:12.099 --> 00:14:12.219 it. 00:14:12.878 --> 00:14:14.781 And then we got challenged by Kelsey to 00:14:14.801 --> 00:14:16.882 make it even, uh, 00:14:16.902 --> 00:14:17.883 so he had like an intake form. 00:14:17.903 --> 00:14:18.483 So they were like, 00:14:18.523 --> 00:14:19.484 what if it wasn't a form? 00:14:19.504 --> 00:14:20.865 What if like you could just give it 00:14:20.886 --> 00:14:22.066 a GitHub link and it could still do 00:14:22.107 --> 00:14:22.748 all of that for you. 00:14:22.848 --> 00:14:25.410 And that was, that was fun to build. 00:14:25.770 --> 00:14:26.230 Yeah. 00:14:26.330 --> 00:14:26.490 Yeah. 00:14:27.703 --> 00:14:29.105 I kind of wanted it to stop before 00:14:29.146 --> 00:14:29.988 the generated part, though, 00:14:30.007 --> 00:14:30.528 because I was like, 00:14:30.549 --> 00:14:32.012 I still want to be the person on 00:14:32.051 --> 00:14:32.532 my videos. 00:14:32.573 --> 00:14:33.754 I still want it to be my story 00:14:33.795 --> 00:14:34.416 and my voice. 00:14:34.455 --> 00:14:36.499 But I want to have that guideline that 00:14:36.520 --> 00:14:37.703 it's like, OK, here's my checklist. 00:14:37.723 --> 00:14:39.365 Here's like the most impactful areas, 00:14:39.386 --> 00:14:39.826 stuff like that. 00:14:40.570 --> 00:14:42.110 yeah that's a really interesting point 00:14:42.190 --> 00:14:44.492 like i keep running into these things uh 00:14:44.531 --> 00:14:46.113 recently like i was i was looking at 00:14:46.132 --> 00:14:48.915 a pr this morning um and the pr 00:14:48.935 --> 00:14:50.955 was fine it was for a problem that 00:14:51.016 --> 00:14:53.978 that i also uh like was experiencing and 00:14:54.037 --> 00:14:55.218 so like parts of it so like you 00:14:55.238 --> 00:14:58.060 know like the code is fine but like 00:14:59.594 --> 00:15:01.494 You know, when you read... And, like, 00:15:01.815 --> 00:15:03.715 the PR description, it was long, 00:15:04.115 --> 00:15:06.637 but that doesn't necessarily mean it was 00:15:06.656 --> 00:15:07.477 written by a robot, 00:15:07.517 --> 00:15:09.698 although increasingly it does mean it was 00:15:09.718 --> 00:15:10.478 written by a robot. 00:15:12.339 --> 00:15:14.440 And it didn't have the little, you know, 00:15:14.879 --> 00:15:17.320 generated by Claude or whatever in the PR 00:15:17.360 --> 00:15:17.840 description. 00:15:18.301 --> 00:15:19.522 The commit didn't have that. 00:15:19.961 --> 00:15:20.362 But, like, 00:15:20.681 --> 00:15:22.142 you know you read something and you just, 00:15:22.203 --> 00:15:22.443 like... 00:15:22.642 --> 00:15:24.463 There's a couple little minor things. 00:15:24.483 --> 00:15:26.084 Like, not even the obvious tropes, but, 00:15:26.143 --> 00:15:26.283 like, 00:15:26.304 --> 00:15:27.545 a couple little minor things where it's, 00:15:27.565 --> 00:15:27.704 like... 00:15:28.744 --> 00:15:30.426 i think this was written by a robot 00:15:31.027 --> 00:15:33.648 yeah yeah definitely and so like i i 00:15:33.689 --> 00:15:35.570 mean like for this project like we just 00:15:35.850 --> 00:15:37.312 uh like the only thing is like we 00:15:37.333 --> 00:15:40.075 need to disclose if ai was used to 00:15:40.134 --> 00:15:42.958 assist anything so like you know it's not 00:15:42.978 --> 00:15:44.219 a big deal if it was you just 00:15:44.278 --> 00:15:46.119 need to say it out loud but like 00:15:47.180 --> 00:15:48.461 I keep running into these things where 00:15:48.482 --> 00:15:54.887 like, AI wrote the body of whatever, 00:15:55.127 --> 00:15:56.868 PR description, blog post, whatever. 00:15:57.569 --> 00:15:59.911 And it's not like, 00:16:00.730 --> 00:16:03.593 it's better than it was at the point 00:16:03.632 --> 00:16:04.574 where it's like I could 00:16:04.974 --> 00:16:07.416 read a single paragraph and immediately be 00:16:07.455 --> 00:16:09.417 like this is definitely written by ai like 00:16:09.478 --> 00:16:11.579 i i now like get a few like 00:16:11.599 --> 00:16:13.560 a couple paragraphs deep before i have 00:16:13.600 --> 00:16:15.402 that that but and it's and it's a 00:16:15.443 --> 00:16:17.825 lot more subtle but like it's still there 00:16:17.864 --> 00:16:20.607 and i still like it still bugs the 00:16:20.627 --> 00:16:24.790 crap i agree everything's an engine 00:16:24.910 --> 00:16:27.973 everything's an engine like i there is 00:16:28.032 --> 00:16:29.393 there's a blog post that like 00:16:30.296 --> 00:16:32.319 I was reviewing for our marketing team, 00:16:33.739 --> 00:16:35.560 and I got halfway through. 00:16:35.580 --> 00:16:36.141 I'm like, okay, 00:16:36.821 --> 00:16:38.562 I'm either really dumb or I don't 00:16:38.603 --> 00:16:40.665 understand anything that's being discussed 00:16:40.744 --> 00:16:40.984 here. 00:16:41.465 --> 00:16:41.945 And also, 00:16:41.985 --> 00:16:43.987 I'm not sure if it makes sense. 00:16:44.248 --> 00:16:45.147 I don't even know. 00:16:46.229 --> 00:16:48.590 And I think that the audience is really 00:16:48.631 --> 00:16:49.691 like three people. 00:16:50.132 --> 00:16:52.693 who would be interested in this blog the 00:16:52.733 --> 00:16:53.474 way that it was written. 00:16:53.513 --> 00:16:55.915 So I asked the person who sent it 00:16:55.935 --> 00:16:57.475 to me whether it was written by AI, 00:16:57.496 --> 00:16:58.115 and she said, yeah. 00:16:58.136 --> 00:16:58.396 I'm like, 00:16:58.835 --> 00:17:00.156 do you want me to just write a 00:17:00.257 --> 00:17:02.318 better article by a human? 00:17:02.338 --> 00:17:02.478 Yeah. 00:17:03.858 --> 00:17:07.440 Because I feel like I'm definitely going 00:17:07.459 --> 00:17:09.560 to have... I mean, if I'm confused, 00:17:09.600 --> 00:17:10.862 someone else is going to be confused, 00:17:10.921 --> 00:17:11.161 right? 00:17:11.181 --> 00:17:11.742 Definitely. 00:17:11.762 --> 00:17:12.102 Yeah. 00:17:12.223 --> 00:17:13.542 Yeah. 00:17:13.623 --> 00:17:15.403 And there's just something about... 00:17:16.445 --> 00:17:18.344 I feel like, especially in DevRel... 00:17:22.107 --> 00:17:23.667 I've said this a couple times, 00:17:23.828 --> 00:17:25.829 I don't feel like we are at risk 00:17:25.889 --> 00:17:28.490 of losing our jobs to AI yet, 00:17:29.551 --> 00:17:32.613 because I feel like there does still need 00:17:32.652 --> 00:17:36.014 to be a human translator. 00:17:36.195 --> 00:17:36.734 Yeah. 00:17:38.435 --> 00:17:40.797 I'm good at this job because I have 00:17:40.897 --> 00:17:43.859 always been really good at taking the geek 00:17:43.879 --> 00:17:45.982 speak from the engineering team and 00:17:46.022 --> 00:17:47.642 translating it into human English and then 00:17:47.662 --> 00:17:48.824 communicating with people. 00:17:49.383 --> 00:17:51.485 And whether I'm taking that from engineers 00:17:51.546 --> 00:17:53.367 or I'm taking that from AI, 00:17:53.706 --> 00:17:55.407 it still needs that human translation 00:17:55.488 --> 00:17:56.209 layer, right? 00:17:56.449 --> 00:17:56.729 Yeah. 00:17:56.868 --> 00:17:57.988 And then there's that like, you know, 00:17:58.008 --> 00:17:58.790 that experience, 00:17:58.810 --> 00:17:59.989 that taste layer where it's like, 00:18:00.349 --> 00:18:01.950 I trust that, you know, 00:18:01.970 --> 00:18:03.531 maybe I trust that Jacquie wrote it because 00:18:03.690 --> 00:18:05.531 Jacquie's been in platform engineering for 00:18:05.551 --> 00:18:08.392 so long and also is kind of vocal 00:18:08.411 --> 00:18:10.333 about making sure that we only say things 00:18:10.353 --> 00:18:10.993 that I believe in. 00:18:11.052 --> 00:18:11.253 Right. 00:18:11.693 --> 00:18:14.694 So I think that layer goes missing when 00:18:14.714 --> 00:18:16.695 you're just only relying on like an agent 00:18:16.714 --> 00:18:17.075 to do it. 00:18:18.376 --> 00:18:20.777 I think my happy path is very similar 00:18:20.797 --> 00:18:22.619 to DevOps, like automate away the toil. 00:18:23.261 --> 00:18:24.762 I think when we take the toil out 00:18:24.821 --> 00:18:25.762 of the things that we do, 00:18:25.823 --> 00:18:28.285 but we enable it to let us pursue 00:18:28.305 --> 00:18:30.387 our whimsy, pursue our better ideas, 00:18:30.468 --> 00:18:32.288 I think that's where I'm happiest with 00:18:32.349 --> 00:18:32.770 using AI. 00:18:33.440 --> 00:18:37.624 yeah what whimsical ways are you using ai 00:18:37.664 --> 00:18:41.729 today yeah fair um i think there's a 00:18:41.769 --> 00:18:44.392 lot of demos in the last like we'll 00:18:44.432 --> 00:18:45.775 just say this year there's been a lot 00:18:45.795 --> 00:18:47.536 of demos this year that i don't think 00:18:47.596 --> 00:18:49.138 i would have been able to pursue in 00:18:49.158 --> 00:18:50.739 the past without it because maybe that 00:18:50.779 --> 00:18:51.822 means scaffolding like 00:18:52.241 --> 00:18:53.982 really cool like terminal visuals that I 00:18:54.002 --> 00:18:55.064 wouldn't have done all the day before. 00:18:55.084 --> 00:18:57.384 Like I did this cool little like lucky 00:18:57.424 --> 00:18:57.705 St. 00:18:58.305 --> 00:19:00.227 Patrick's Day one just for fun. 00:19:00.247 --> 00:19:00.467 I was like, 00:19:00.507 --> 00:19:01.728 I don't think I could have scaffolded it 00:19:01.767 --> 00:19:02.908 together before because I kind of got the 00:19:02.929 --> 00:19:03.568 buy-in for that. 00:19:05.110 --> 00:19:05.709 But this one, 00:19:05.850 --> 00:19:07.270 like now I'm working on like, you know, 00:19:07.290 --> 00:19:08.352 take a picture of your dog, 00:19:08.451 --> 00:19:10.932 use different models to turn it into a 00:19:11.013 --> 00:19:12.975 custom video game and like get a sprite 00:19:12.995 --> 00:19:16.937 sheet and everything and just kind of show 00:19:16.977 --> 00:19:17.657 like, you know, 00:19:18.817 --> 00:19:20.238 I'm going to have this one live probably 00:19:20.439 --> 00:19:21.279 in the next month or two, 00:19:21.319 --> 00:19:23.121 but it's kind of funny because I'm using 00:19:23.161 --> 00:19:25.062 like text-to-text models to draw an image, 00:19:25.082 --> 00:19:26.984 which obviously they're not meant to make 00:19:27.123 --> 00:19:27.663 SVGs. 00:19:28.084 --> 00:19:29.825 So you get some kind of wonky outputs 00:19:29.865 --> 00:19:31.767 and then I'm using like the correct model 00:19:31.806 --> 00:19:34.389 to actually judge the outputs and then do 00:19:34.429 --> 00:19:35.890 evaluation loops and improve that. 00:19:36.611 --> 00:19:37.632 And I think it's just fun because I'm 00:19:37.671 --> 00:19:38.352 like, you know, 00:19:38.372 --> 00:19:39.972 I'm making this video game with my dog 00:19:39.992 --> 00:19:40.093 who's... 00:19:41.725 --> 00:19:43.145 passed out in the background apparently i 00:19:43.165 --> 00:19:44.165 was gonna see if he'd come say hi 00:19:44.206 --> 00:19:47.267 but he's no he's passed out but it's 00:19:47.286 --> 00:19:49.468 just it's fun like to kind of have 00:19:49.488 --> 00:19:51.409 these like silly little ideas and be like 00:19:51.429 --> 00:19:52.870 can we turn this into like a real 00:19:53.170 --> 00:19:57.011 learning moment like um i feel like that 00:19:57.032 --> 00:19:58.652 that's the nice part that wasn't as easy 00:19:58.671 --> 00:20:00.692 to do before or you know some of 00:20:00.712 --> 00:20:02.534 my workflows right now around like taking 00:20:02.574 --> 00:20:04.475 short videos um i used to spend so 00:20:04.495 --> 00:20:06.276 much time editing that like i didn't even 00:20:06.315 --> 00:20:07.855 necessarily want to film sometimes because 00:20:07.895 --> 00:20:08.836 like oh god this is 00:20:09.636 --> 00:20:10.917 Like this is an idea that I'd love 00:20:10.937 --> 00:20:11.297 to push, 00:20:11.337 --> 00:20:13.077 but I just don't have the extra time 00:20:13.097 --> 00:20:15.058 to edit all of this and get it 00:20:15.078 --> 00:20:15.498 published. 00:20:15.558 --> 00:20:17.979 And now I've got some different workflows 00:20:17.999 --> 00:20:18.759 where it's automating, 00:20:18.799 --> 00:20:19.959 like cutting out the dead space. 00:20:19.999 --> 00:20:22.440 It's putting on like the lower thirds 00:20:22.480 --> 00:20:24.761 title cards, adding animations. 00:20:25.562 --> 00:20:26.502 And it's just kind of fun. 00:20:26.523 --> 00:20:29.084 Like it feels like this era of the 00:20:29.225 --> 00:20:31.207 early two thousands internet where 00:20:31.847 --> 00:20:33.528 everything's kind of new and shiny again. 00:20:33.568 --> 00:20:34.950 And I haven't felt that way in a 00:20:34.989 --> 00:20:35.450 few years. 00:20:35.490 --> 00:20:35.871 So it's, 00:20:35.930 --> 00:20:37.932 it's exciting to just be curious and 00:20:37.972 --> 00:20:41.796 explore and see what areas I can fix. 00:20:41.855 --> 00:20:43.438 One of the things that I realized when 00:20:43.478 --> 00:20:45.199 I started using, uh, 00:20:46.062 --> 00:20:47.462 particularly Cloud Code, 00:20:47.702 --> 00:20:51.924 because I've been using AI since ChatGPT's 00:20:51.965 --> 00:20:54.247 first, you know, thing. 00:20:54.907 --> 00:20:58.328 But one of the things that I discovered 00:20:58.748 --> 00:21:00.390 when I really started using Cloud Code is 00:21:00.430 --> 00:21:05.873 that, like, the bus factor for going from, 00:21:06.033 --> 00:21:06.274 like, 00:21:06.873 --> 00:21:08.735 a weird idea in my head to actually 00:21:08.795 --> 00:21:10.216 completing that thing, like, I used to, 00:21:10.256 --> 00:21:10.415 like, 00:21:11.334 --> 00:21:12.615 I used to build lots of things for 00:21:12.635 --> 00:21:14.237 myself that were just like side project 00:21:14.277 --> 00:21:15.336 things like, you know, 00:21:15.817 --> 00:21:16.998 I have this itch that I want to 00:21:17.037 --> 00:21:17.758 scratch, whatever. 00:21:17.798 --> 00:21:19.340 And it's been a really long time since 00:21:19.400 --> 00:21:22.520 I felt inclined to pursue most of those 00:21:22.561 --> 00:21:22.961 things. 00:21:23.481 --> 00:21:25.002 But it's so much, there's so much, 00:21:25.283 --> 00:21:25.682 there's so much, 00:21:25.902 --> 00:21:28.545 such a smaller bus factor now to like 00:21:28.664 --> 00:21:31.366 go from that idea to like a working 00:21:31.407 --> 00:21:33.807 prototype that it makes it so much easier 00:21:34.228 --> 00:21:35.409 to create again. 00:21:37.131 --> 00:21:38.492 And yeah, 00:21:39.715 --> 00:21:42.017 I got my start on the internet making 00:21:42.057 --> 00:21:43.160 GeoCity sites. 00:21:43.539 --> 00:21:44.081 Oh, yeah. 00:21:44.220 --> 00:21:46.965 Oh, I forgot about those. 00:21:47.084 --> 00:21:47.966 So that was how I learned. 00:21:48.006 --> 00:21:50.229 And back in those days, you're just like, 00:21:50.450 --> 00:21:51.351 oh, I see... 00:21:51.951 --> 00:21:53.653 this cool thing on this website i'm just 00:21:53.673 --> 00:21:55.094 going to look at the source and copy 00:21:55.134 --> 00:21:56.375 that and put it in my head and 00:21:56.415 --> 00:21:57.997 tweak a couple things and then magically 00:21:58.036 --> 00:22:00.238 it's it's it's there and it's like there's 00:22:00.258 --> 00:22:01.841 a little bit of that sort of like 00:22:02.101 --> 00:22:05.304 uh discovery and and dare i say wonder 00:22:05.804 --> 00:22:08.186 uh when you're when you're able to sort 00:22:08.246 --> 00:22:13.411 of make ideas happen um like very very 00:22:13.430 --> 00:22:13.750 quickly 00:22:14.565 --> 00:22:15.267 Yeah, no, 00:22:15.326 --> 00:22:16.867 I think wonder is the correct word for 00:22:16.908 --> 00:22:16.968 it. 00:22:17.007 --> 00:22:19.331 Like when I first took that original 00:22:20.030 --> 00:22:22.172 DevOps internship job, 00:22:22.192 --> 00:22:23.654 basically it was a lot of like, 00:22:23.775 --> 00:22:25.115 it kind of felt like you're like walking 00:22:25.135 --> 00:22:26.797 through this castle and like every new 00:22:26.857 --> 00:22:28.758 door had a new exciting thing behind it. 00:22:28.798 --> 00:22:29.160 Like, you know, 00:22:29.180 --> 00:22:30.321 I open a door and I'm like, oh, 00:22:30.361 --> 00:22:31.842 configuration management. 00:22:32.263 --> 00:22:33.703 Wow, look what we can do with, 00:22:33.784 --> 00:22:34.064 you know. 00:22:35.285 --> 00:22:36.105 Salt is what I was using at the 00:22:36.125 --> 00:22:36.226 time. 00:22:36.246 --> 00:22:36.645 So I was like, 00:22:36.665 --> 00:22:37.527 look what we can do with Salt. 00:22:37.707 --> 00:22:38.346 This is crazy. 00:22:38.386 --> 00:22:39.307 Did you know you could just do these 00:22:39.327 --> 00:22:39.488 things? 00:22:39.507 --> 00:22:41.509 I had just updated, 00:22:41.789 --> 00:22:42.789 I want to say it was like a 00:22:42.830 --> 00:22:46.533 hundred and forty two VMs manually. 00:22:46.553 --> 00:22:48.113 I had to go in and do things 00:22:48.153 --> 00:22:49.295 and it took a while. 00:22:49.955 --> 00:22:51.216 And then I discovered config management 00:22:51.335 --> 00:22:52.757 and then it just kind of kept being 00:22:52.777 --> 00:22:53.877 like that. 00:22:54.097 --> 00:22:55.578 Then I learned about Git and that was 00:22:55.598 --> 00:22:55.838 great. 00:22:56.078 --> 00:22:57.799 That was awesome. 00:22:57.880 --> 00:22:58.960 There's a whole bunch of things in there. 00:22:59.000 --> 00:23:00.602 I learned about pipelines and I was like, 00:23:00.681 --> 00:23:01.702 whoa, that's great. 00:23:01.763 --> 00:23:03.604 I don't have to just script everything and 00:23:03.643 --> 00:23:04.124 hope it will 00:23:05.025 --> 00:23:07.365 work everywhere even like the file changes 00:23:07.425 --> 00:23:09.885 or the user changes or you know just 00:23:09.905 --> 00:23:11.585 whatever small changes might have happened 00:23:12.987 --> 00:23:14.106 I just kind of kept feeling like that 00:23:14.187 --> 00:23:15.326 and then there became a point where 00:23:15.346 --> 00:23:16.626 suddenly there was so much of it and 00:23:16.667 --> 00:23:19.007 it just kind of wasn't as exciting anymore 00:23:19.027 --> 00:23:20.527 because I was like well I like learning 00:23:20.688 --> 00:23:22.528 you know Kubernetes is fun I like learning 00:23:22.548 --> 00:23:24.548 this but you know at some point I 00:23:24.568 --> 00:23:27.969 was like I'd like to either rediscover the 00:23:27.989 --> 00:23:28.809 joy and wonder or 00:23:29.450 --> 00:23:31.552 Maybe take a year to just kind of 00:23:31.711 --> 00:23:32.952 be proud of all the stuff I've built 00:23:32.972 --> 00:23:34.133 and maybe not always feel like I'm 00:23:34.153 --> 00:23:34.654 scrambling. 00:23:35.194 --> 00:23:36.216 I think that's something I've heard from a 00:23:36.256 --> 00:23:36.796 lot of people, 00:23:36.977 --> 00:23:38.658 especially lately with the AI stuff too. 00:23:39.459 --> 00:23:42.040 But yeah, I don't know. 00:23:42.200 --> 00:23:43.221 The joy and wonder is back is where 00:23:43.241 --> 00:23:45.024 I was going with that. 00:23:45.084 --> 00:23:46.404 Do you actually feel like you're not 00:23:46.465 --> 00:23:46.904 scrambling? 00:23:46.924 --> 00:23:47.786 Because I feel like... 00:23:49.787 --> 00:23:52.949 like yes we can get stuff done maybe 00:23:52.969 --> 00:23:54.049 we can i don't even know if the 00:23:54.110 --> 00:23:55.469 answer is yes but maybe we can get 00:23:55.509 --> 00:23:59.812 stuff done faster but like the the desire 00:24:00.552 --> 00:24:05.774 for more results uh with the existing 00:24:05.973 --> 00:24:10.575 amount of resources uh or you know coming 00:24:10.614 --> 00:24:13.937 from like on high feels more pressing to 00:24:13.957 --> 00:24:15.096 me like i feel like i'm 00:24:15.457 --> 00:24:17.382 I'm being asked to output more with the 00:24:17.402 --> 00:24:18.423 same amount of resources. 00:24:18.443 --> 00:24:20.148 And I feel like that's a sentiment that 00:24:20.188 --> 00:24:22.472 I've seen like kind of all across tech 00:24:22.513 --> 00:24:22.673 now. 00:24:23.288 --> 00:24:24.890 Yeah, I think. 00:24:26.111 --> 00:24:26.450 First off, 00:24:26.470 --> 00:24:27.591 I think that's a great question. 00:24:28.592 --> 00:24:30.692 I feel like that sense of needing to 00:24:30.712 --> 00:24:33.173 do more with less for me has already 00:24:33.213 --> 00:24:35.875 kind of been around since like like twenty 00:24:35.915 --> 00:24:37.095 twenty twenty twenty one. 00:24:37.836 --> 00:24:38.596 And so it kept being like, 00:24:38.636 --> 00:24:40.418 how can Jacquie scale Jacquie better? 00:24:40.498 --> 00:24:42.578 And a lot of the answers were answers 00:24:42.619 --> 00:24:44.499 I didn't like, like logistics or. 00:24:45.740 --> 00:24:46.001 you know, 00:24:46.042 --> 00:24:47.706 getting better at some of these other like 00:24:47.746 --> 00:24:48.889 business insight processes. 00:24:49.189 --> 00:24:51.053 Whereas this time, 00:24:51.314 --> 00:24:52.517 like the pressure is still there, 00:24:52.556 --> 00:24:53.679 but it's the first time I feel like 00:24:53.739 --> 00:24:54.280 I have like 00:24:55.174 --> 00:24:56.976 shiny new tools that are at my disposal 00:24:57.016 --> 00:24:59.277 that are actually like really taking 00:24:59.316 --> 00:25:00.817 chunks out of that stuff I've got to 00:25:00.837 --> 00:25:02.899 do yeah like it's it's feeling a lot 00:25:02.939 --> 00:25:04.799 more like in my power again like before 00:25:04.840 --> 00:25:05.980 if I wanted to do video editing and 00:25:06.020 --> 00:25:07.700 I had to you know like I did 00:25:07.760 --> 00:25:09.322 it but you know there's a lot more 00:25:09.501 --> 00:25:11.222 manual processes there's only so much I 00:25:11.242 --> 00:25:12.923 could speed it up without hiring somebody 00:25:12.963 --> 00:25:14.745 else to do it for me right and 00:25:14.805 --> 00:25:16.466 now it's like I don't maybe it's my 00:25:16.506 --> 00:25:17.707 DevOps mindset like I'm like now 00:25:17.727 --> 00:25:18.527 everything's a pipeline 00:25:20.255 --> 00:25:21.335 I'm so excited about that. 00:25:22.257 --> 00:25:24.117 But yeah, I don't know. 00:25:24.258 --> 00:25:26.821 I think there's definitely more pressure 00:25:26.861 --> 00:25:28.102 to release everything, right? 00:25:28.142 --> 00:25:29.182 Like there's, you know, 00:25:29.202 --> 00:25:31.825 with the LLMs everywhere across Twitter, 00:25:31.865 --> 00:25:33.386 across LinkedIn, 00:25:33.427 --> 00:25:35.670 across pretty much any major places we're 00:25:35.729 --> 00:25:36.209 posting. 00:25:36.610 --> 00:25:38.271 There's more pressure to post blog posts 00:25:38.312 --> 00:25:38.732 every day. 00:25:39.293 --> 00:25:41.354 There's more pressure to do everything 00:25:41.374 --> 00:25:41.775 faster. 00:25:42.415 --> 00:25:44.158 But I think we're also kind of hitting 00:25:44.198 --> 00:25:45.999 that point now where everyone's getting 00:25:46.140 --> 00:25:46.881 oversaturated. 00:25:47.040 --> 00:25:48.583 Like there's too many posts every day. 00:25:48.603 --> 00:25:49.944 There's too many blog posts every day. 00:25:49.965 --> 00:25:51.226 There's too much content every day. 00:25:51.907 --> 00:25:53.107 And so it feels like what I'm starting 00:25:53.127 --> 00:25:54.709 to see now is people are kind of 00:25:55.490 --> 00:25:57.973 pulling back from like the quickly or 00:25:58.034 --> 00:25:59.675 obviously scaffolded things and starting 00:25:59.696 --> 00:26:01.557 to look more for like that human side 00:26:01.577 --> 00:26:02.479 where it's like, okay, sure. 00:26:02.498 --> 00:26:02.699 Like, 00:26:03.587 --> 00:26:05.950 sure Jacquie built a blog post but did 00:26:06.029 --> 00:26:07.571 Jacquie build a blog post that actually 00:26:07.911 --> 00:26:09.593 conveys her insights or her thoughts or 00:26:09.613 --> 00:26:11.334 her feelings or her opinions and I think 00:26:11.354 --> 00:26:12.535 those are things that are going to start 00:26:12.555 --> 00:26:16.998 getting weighted more heavily again yeah 00:26:17.038 --> 00:26:20.782 yeah I feel like um I feel like 00:26:21.082 --> 00:26:25.665 uh brain completely just 00:26:26.431 --> 00:26:32.216 malfunction there um okay it happens um i 00:26:32.256 --> 00:26:33.497 had a thought and then it was gone 00:26:34.076 --> 00:26:39.019 um so i will move on um yeah 00:26:39.039 --> 00:26:41.421 completely gone uh that's cool i hate it 00:26:41.441 --> 00:26:43.583 when that happens i know it happens it 00:26:43.623 --> 00:26:44.984 happened to me so many times in my 00:26:45.004 --> 00:26:46.065 meetings this morning and i was like 00:26:46.525 --> 00:26:47.845 really hope that's out of my system now 00:26:50.749 --> 00:26:52.671 Um, one of the things that you, you, 00:26:52.770 --> 00:26:53.651 you talked about in, 00:26:53.811 --> 00:26:56.191 in the intake form too, is, is, uh, 00:26:56.231 --> 00:26:59.413 the difference between DevRel in, in, 00:26:59.453 --> 00:27:00.453 in the DevRel today. 00:27:00.994 --> 00:27:03.055 Um, speak on that, like what, 00:27:03.194 --> 00:27:05.976 what have you observed in, uh, the, um, 00:27:06.175 --> 00:27:08.217 like the time period immediately following 00:27:08.237 --> 00:27:10.317 COVID, uh, to, uh, 00:27:10.337 --> 00:27:12.119 to how things are now? 00:27:12.921 --> 00:27:13.402 Yeah, 00:27:13.421 --> 00:27:16.203 I think it's interesting because kind of 00:27:16.223 --> 00:27:18.265 like being a millennial where, you know, 00:27:18.305 --> 00:27:20.285 I got that little bit of pre-internet, 00:27:20.405 --> 00:27:21.286 the early internet, 00:27:21.385 --> 00:27:23.947 and now everyone has all the internet all 00:27:23.967 --> 00:27:24.867 the time by default. 00:27:25.668 --> 00:27:27.429 I had a very similar story with DevRel 00:27:27.469 --> 00:27:29.370 where I had a little bit of time 00:27:29.410 --> 00:27:31.851 right before the pandemic where I was 00:27:31.970 --> 00:27:33.411 speaking at conferences and doing meetups, 00:27:33.451 --> 00:27:34.431 but still as an engineer. 00:27:35.212 --> 00:27:36.113 I didn't start DevRel until 00:27:38.494 --> 00:27:40.616 I came into that with it being suddenly 00:27:40.697 --> 00:27:42.238 now everything is online and like, 00:27:42.278 --> 00:27:44.101 how do we make online spaces feel like 00:27:44.141 --> 00:27:44.802 real life, 00:27:44.842 --> 00:27:46.623 which is obviously very difficult and 00:27:46.643 --> 00:27:47.084 challenging. 00:27:48.247 --> 00:27:48.546 How do we, 00:27:48.767 --> 00:27:50.328 I already did a lot of live streaming. 00:27:50.469 --> 00:27:52.332 I started live streaming World of Warcraft 00:27:52.392 --> 00:27:55.075 in like, twenty eleven, like on Justin TV. 00:27:57.158 --> 00:27:58.277 That was already something that's kind of 00:27:58.317 --> 00:27:58.879 in my kit. 00:27:59.600 --> 00:28:00.380 But it was a lot of like, 00:28:00.479 --> 00:28:03.082 how do we talk to people when they're 00:28:03.102 --> 00:28:03.603 not there? 00:28:03.702 --> 00:28:05.344 And so much of like your developer 00:28:05.423 --> 00:28:07.305 interactions are like building rapport and 00:28:07.325 --> 00:28:08.806 communicating with them and make them feel 00:28:08.846 --> 00:28:09.567 seen and heard. 00:28:09.607 --> 00:28:11.568 And that's just significantly harder to do 00:28:11.609 --> 00:28:11.989 online. 00:28:12.009 --> 00:28:13.071 Yeah. 00:28:13.151 --> 00:28:13.811 And then finally, 00:28:13.851 --> 00:28:15.873 that transition to where we are now is 00:28:16.192 --> 00:28:17.113 it feels like. 00:28:18.369 --> 00:28:20.109 Like, I think pre-pandemic, 00:28:20.190 --> 00:28:22.709 it was very conference circuit meetups, 00:28:22.749 --> 00:28:24.871 like face-to-face time above everything 00:28:24.950 --> 00:28:25.171 else. 00:28:25.530 --> 00:28:28.552 And then during the pandemic, it became, 00:28:28.711 --> 00:28:30.312 you know, live streams, podcasts, 00:28:31.191 --> 00:28:32.972 online workshops on Zoom and running into 00:28:32.992 --> 00:28:33.613 things like, oh, 00:28:33.632 --> 00:28:35.034 my Zoom workshop can only handle four 00:28:35.054 --> 00:28:35.574 hundred people. 00:28:35.633 --> 00:28:36.754 Like, you know, 00:28:36.774 --> 00:28:37.673 four hundred fifty sign up. 00:28:37.693 --> 00:28:37.774 Like, 00:28:37.834 --> 00:28:39.315 how do we scale that out in a 00:28:39.354 --> 00:28:41.715 way that still feels good for attendees? 00:28:42.615 --> 00:28:43.536 That became a challenge. 00:28:44.236 --> 00:28:45.837 But I think today what we're finding is 00:28:45.857 --> 00:28:46.738 now that we have, again, 00:28:46.798 --> 00:28:48.479 all these other tools and expectations, 00:28:49.300 --> 00:28:50.622 even if you look at like DevRelCon, 00:28:50.721 --> 00:28:52.324 like everything is really moving towards 00:28:52.363 --> 00:28:54.125 like GTM side of things. 00:28:54.726 --> 00:28:56.527 Like, okay, there's more, you know, 00:28:56.547 --> 00:28:57.909 we're trying to find more ways to measure 00:28:57.929 --> 00:28:58.289 DevRel. 00:28:58.330 --> 00:28:58.489 Like, 00:28:58.529 --> 00:29:00.451 how do we do this podcast and say 00:29:00.471 --> 00:29:01.972 that this contributed to X, Y, 00:29:02.013 --> 00:29:03.074 Z business insights? 00:29:03.094 --> 00:29:03.235 Yeah. 00:29:04.035 --> 00:29:06.277 And I think right now that's a little 00:29:06.296 --> 00:29:07.958 bit taking us sometimes away from that 00:29:07.978 --> 00:29:08.738 community aspect. 00:29:08.818 --> 00:29:10.440 Like I know a lot of people that 00:29:10.500 --> 00:29:11.822 really want to spend more time on it, 00:29:12.582 --> 00:29:13.783 but we're having to spend more time on 00:29:14.063 --> 00:29:14.683 just, you know, 00:29:14.703 --> 00:29:16.686 kind of being the word I want to 00:29:16.786 --> 00:29:20.168 use like content factories basically. 00:29:20.248 --> 00:29:20.568 Cause you know, 00:29:20.588 --> 00:29:22.990 you've got the agent factories and we're 00:29:23.010 --> 00:29:23.770 doing a lot of content. 00:29:24.152 --> 00:29:25.313 I found a pin from a conference. 00:29:25.412 --> 00:29:26.633 I've apparently been playing with this 00:29:26.673 --> 00:29:27.294 whole podcast. 00:29:27.413 --> 00:29:27.795 That's fine. 00:29:29.476 --> 00:29:31.638 But yeah, I think there's a lot more, 00:29:32.912 --> 00:29:35.256 Just kind of it's not necessarily a bad 00:29:35.315 --> 00:29:35.575 thing. 00:29:35.675 --> 00:29:35.835 Like, 00:29:35.895 --> 00:29:37.879 I think I see the role maturing a 00:29:37.919 --> 00:29:38.840 lot and we're getting a better 00:29:38.920 --> 00:29:40.741 understanding of like when we put 00:29:40.782 --> 00:29:41.462 something out there, 00:29:41.603 --> 00:29:42.544 where are people coming from? 00:29:42.643 --> 00:29:43.985 What makes them interested in it? 00:29:44.025 --> 00:29:44.145 Like, 00:29:44.186 --> 00:29:45.747 why are they sticking around or not 00:29:45.806 --> 00:29:46.448 sticking around? 00:29:47.268 --> 00:29:48.350 And I think that's kind of where I'm 00:29:48.410 --> 00:29:50.613 seeing it is a lot more heavily today. 00:29:50.672 --> 00:29:51.594 Kind of like observability, 00:29:51.633 --> 00:29:52.334 but for Deverell. 00:29:53.113 --> 00:29:54.675 I've definitely felt, 00:29:56.116 --> 00:29:59.219 especially since becoming the manager of 00:29:59.258 --> 00:29:59.879 my DevRel team, 00:30:02.061 --> 00:30:06.484 I've definitely felt the necessity or... 00:30:08.132 --> 00:30:09.213 perception, I guess, 00:30:09.334 --> 00:30:13.036 that we need to have some sort of 00:30:13.136 --> 00:30:16.400 quantifiable numbers to show that we're 00:30:16.440 --> 00:30:17.220 doing things. 00:30:18.161 --> 00:30:22.565 And I still feel like so much of 00:30:22.644 --> 00:30:24.427 DevRel is vibes. 00:30:25.086 --> 00:30:25.386 Yeah. 00:30:26.428 --> 00:30:29.391 It's putting out into the world something 00:30:29.831 --> 00:30:34.434 positive to earn goodwill and support of 00:30:34.475 --> 00:30:35.536 the developer community, 00:30:35.736 --> 00:30:36.135 and then 00:30:37.197 --> 00:30:39.359 presumably those developers will want to 00:30:39.419 --> 00:30:41.019 work with me right like or want to 00:30:41.039 --> 00:30:43.000 work with the company you know um and 00:30:43.040 --> 00:30:44.702 how do you like put numbers on that 00:30:45.002 --> 00:30:46.764 and so i've been like i it's a 00:30:46.784 --> 00:30:48.825 problem that i gave to claude uh and 00:30:48.845 --> 00:30:51.146 to build out a a dashboard of like 00:30:51.807 --> 00:30:54.289 stuff that we can measure because i felt 00:30:54.309 --> 00:30:57.292 like we needed to represent this um but 00:30:57.312 --> 00:30:58.732 i'm curious because we're talking about 00:30:58.793 --> 00:31:01.414 gtm we're talking about uh how to quantify 00:31:01.634 --> 00:31:03.697 the work that we do like what are 00:31:03.876 --> 00:31:05.418 what are things that like 00:31:06.972 --> 00:31:10.334 you consider valuable sort of metrics to 00:31:10.495 --> 00:31:15.236 score DevRel efficiency or efficacy? 00:31:15.556 --> 00:31:18.857 Yeah, I feel like that's like, man, 00:31:18.877 --> 00:31:19.638 that's tough. 00:31:21.139 --> 00:31:22.619 Because I think like if you'd asked me 00:31:22.659 --> 00:31:23.259 three years ago, 00:31:23.319 --> 00:31:25.080 I could have been like GitHub stars and 00:31:25.120 --> 00:31:25.661 signups. 00:31:25.960 --> 00:31:26.740 And, you know, 00:31:26.760 --> 00:31:28.142 the answer was so easy then. 00:31:28.322 --> 00:31:30.142 And it's just not that anymore. 00:31:30.161 --> 00:31:31.583 Like now we're looking at that like second 00:31:31.642 --> 00:31:32.863 or third layer of things, 00:31:32.882 --> 00:31:33.683 which are things like, 00:31:34.484 --> 00:31:34.723 You know, 00:31:35.485 --> 00:31:36.687 it's not just how many people joined our 00:31:36.727 --> 00:31:37.148 community. 00:31:37.228 --> 00:31:38.910 It's how many non-employees answered 00:31:38.950 --> 00:31:41.052 questions in the Discord, right? 00:31:41.172 --> 00:31:45.398 It's like... I'm drawing a huge blank now. 00:31:45.418 --> 00:31:45.638 I'm like, 00:31:45.698 --> 00:31:47.360 I have nice metrics that I like tracking, 00:31:47.440 --> 00:31:47.921 but they're... 00:31:49.344 --> 00:31:49.924 Not present. 00:31:51.565 --> 00:31:52.006 But, you know, 00:31:52.065 --> 00:31:54.127 I think it's things like mostly what I 00:31:54.148 --> 00:31:56.469 think it comes down to is how much 00:31:56.489 --> 00:31:57.871 can we track that like our insight 00:31:57.970 --> 00:31:59.612 actually helps them solve their problems, 00:31:59.632 --> 00:32:00.952 help them stick with the product, 00:32:00.972 --> 00:32:02.295 help them do new features, 00:32:02.334 --> 00:32:04.236 and also how much to enable them to 00:32:04.696 --> 00:32:05.576 help others as well. 00:32:06.097 --> 00:32:06.877 Because we can't, 00:32:07.238 --> 00:32:08.959 we just can't do a one-to-one anymore. 00:32:09.059 --> 00:32:09.841 Like we need to help. 00:32:10.601 --> 00:32:11.661 Like it just needs to be a little 00:32:11.681 --> 00:32:12.021 pyramid. 00:32:12.062 --> 00:32:13.343 Like we help these two people, 00:32:13.382 --> 00:32:14.284 they help two people. 00:32:14.825 --> 00:32:15.725 Pyramid scheme of helping. 00:32:15.745 --> 00:32:17.507 I was going to say the pyramid scheme 00:32:17.546 --> 00:32:18.086 of DevRel. 00:32:18.106 --> 00:32:18.488 It's great. 00:32:18.988 --> 00:32:20.508 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:32:20.528 --> 00:32:21.851 That's going to get quoted out of context. 00:32:23.932 --> 00:32:24.333 But, you know, 00:32:24.392 --> 00:32:26.654 I think it's it's it's just harder to 00:32:26.694 --> 00:32:27.956 measure like that direct impact. 00:32:28.917 --> 00:32:30.138 As far as like what I'm measuring right 00:32:30.158 --> 00:32:30.317 now, 00:32:30.337 --> 00:32:33.161 like I'm still playing around with it a 00:32:33.200 --> 00:32:35.162 lot because I'm trying to figure out like, 00:32:35.702 --> 00:32:35.863 you know, 00:32:35.883 --> 00:32:37.344 I always did live streams and before it 00:32:37.364 --> 00:32:38.145 was Twitch for sure. 00:32:38.165 --> 00:32:39.507 But maybe Twitch isn't the platform 00:32:39.546 --> 00:32:39.967 anymore. 00:32:40.007 --> 00:32:40.507 And, you know, 00:32:40.587 --> 00:32:43.029 as as millennials go from being the main 00:32:43.069 --> 00:32:44.491 consumers and now it's becoming Gen Z. 00:32:45.271 --> 00:32:46.453 how many other things are changing with 00:32:46.473 --> 00:32:46.674 that? 00:32:46.715 --> 00:32:47.476 How do they learn? 00:32:47.717 --> 00:32:49.900 You know, like I think five years ago, 00:32:49.920 --> 00:32:51.984 it became a big thing that TikTok was 00:32:52.024 --> 00:32:53.667 getting more searches than Google. 00:32:53.707 --> 00:32:54.668 And that's where people were learning 00:32:54.728 --> 00:32:54.969 from. 00:32:55.028 --> 00:32:57.132 And now that's pretty much what all my 00:32:57.172 --> 00:32:58.213 metrics are centering around. 00:32:58.254 --> 00:32:58.996 Like I've got like a, 00:33:00.344 --> 00:33:01.844 I've got this agent workflow where it 00:33:01.864 --> 00:33:02.845 takes all my meeting notes, 00:33:03.585 --> 00:33:04.905 it spits out all the information, 00:33:04.966 --> 00:33:06.346 like topics, deadlines, 00:33:07.346 --> 00:33:09.886 demo ideas I put in, whatever else, 00:33:10.007 --> 00:33:12.168 like other concepts or key priorities for 00:33:12.208 --> 00:33:12.547 people. 00:33:13.327 --> 00:33:15.548 And then it's also tracking all my posts 00:33:15.568 --> 00:33:16.929 and my metrics and then putting that into 00:33:17.028 --> 00:33:18.569 a dashboard so I can try to see, 00:33:18.610 --> 00:33:19.590 okay, are we getting growth? 00:33:19.630 --> 00:33:20.069 Is it going... 00:33:20.610 --> 00:33:22.392 Trending positively, trending neutrally. 00:33:22.812 --> 00:33:23.252 I'll take them. 00:33:24.172 --> 00:33:25.815 And what's like my strongest space, 00:33:25.854 --> 00:33:26.915 because, you know, 00:33:26.956 --> 00:33:28.616 even even the written posts now, 00:33:28.657 --> 00:33:29.959 like if I do the same post on 00:33:29.998 --> 00:33:30.920 LinkedIn and X, 00:33:31.019 --> 00:33:32.220 it's not going to be happy. 00:33:32.720 --> 00:33:35.083 So trying to figure out that space where 00:33:35.103 --> 00:33:35.703 it's like, OK, 00:33:36.705 --> 00:33:38.486 what is the best way to share my 00:33:38.506 --> 00:33:39.948 thoughts and insights and meet people 00:33:40.708 --> 00:33:42.330 where they're actually happy? 00:33:44.730 --> 00:33:45.372 learning. 00:33:45.431 --> 00:33:46.292 That's a lot of like, 00:33:46.411 --> 00:33:48.392 but the answer is I'm trying to figure 00:33:48.412 --> 00:33:49.153 out the correct answer. 00:33:49.234 --> 00:33:52.196 I mean, yeah, it's sort of, it's almost, 00:33:52.776 --> 00:33:55.616 well, A, it's not really a trick question, 00:33:55.657 --> 00:33:56.837 but like, 00:33:57.517 --> 00:33:58.699 obviously it's a challenging problem 00:33:58.719 --> 00:33:59.860 because I didn't have an answer to it 00:33:59.959 --> 00:34:00.200 either. 00:34:00.539 --> 00:34:03.042 Like before I talked to Claude about like, 00:34:03.082 --> 00:34:04.742 here's the stuff that I do and here's 00:34:04.763 --> 00:34:05.942 the, like my goals, but like, 00:34:06.002 --> 00:34:07.123 I don't know how to measure this stuff. 00:34:07.163 --> 00:34:07.824 And it was like, oh, 00:34:07.844 --> 00:34:08.745 we could do this and do this. 00:34:08.765 --> 00:34:08.864 And 00:34:09.325 --> 00:34:11.085 like so like okay so like i i 00:34:11.145 --> 00:34:14.188 understand it's a and it's also like it's 00:34:14.228 --> 00:34:15.627 kind of a moving target because like you 00:34:15.668 --> 00:34:17.929 said like the the platforms are changing 00:34:18.049 --> 00:34:20.351 the audiences are going different things 00:34:20.411 --> 00:34:23.872 like it's not github stars now it's like 00:34:23.912 --> 00:34:25.893 this thing over here like you can't judge 00:34:25.933 --> 00:34:28.634 anything by like that like so it's it's 00:34:28.654 --> 00:34:30.615 a combination of a lot of different things 00:34:30.895 --> 00:34:32.757 um but also it's a combination of a 00:34:32.777 --> 00:34:34.638 lot of different things that are that's 00:34:34.777 --> 00:34:36.598 constantly sort of changing and evolving 00:34:38.297 --> 00:34:38.757 So yeah, 00:34:39.379 --> 00:34:41.881 there's not a cut and dry answer. 00:34:41.921 --> 00:34:43.021 So that's part of the reason why I 00:34:43.042 --> 00:34:44.344 was interested in things that you were 00:34:44.363 --> 00:34:44.683 looking at. 00:34:44.703 --> 00:34:45.183 Because yeah, 00:34:45.223 --> 00:34:47.446 I'm also looking at how many attendees 00:34:47.466 --> 00:34:48.668 that I get on the webinar and how 00:34:48.688 --> 00:34:51.069 many people are looking at this blog post 00:34:51.090 --> 00:34:54.932 that I wrote and how many podcasts am 00:34:54.952 --> 00:34:56.475 I putting out in a year and that 00:34:56.515 --> 00:34:56.995 sort of thing. 00:34:57.154 --> 00:34:59.136 And each one of those things is a 00:34:59.197 --> 00:34:59.857 data point 00:35:02.024 --> 00:35:04.226 And maybe on the whole, like, there's a, 00:35:05.065 --> 00:35:06.527 we can, like, measure, like, 00:35:06.987 --> 00:35:08.428 a trend or something. 00:35:08.488 --> 00:35:09.528 But, like, yeah, 00:35:09.609 --> 00:35:11.370 I'm just throwing numbers at something. 00:35:12.391 --> 00:35:14.052 Like, here, look at the numbers. 00:35:14.072 --> 00:35:15.073 The more data you have, 00:35:15.113 --> 00:35:16.152 the more you try to figure out the 00:35:16.172 --> 00:35:17.133 patterns and the trends. 00:35:17.613 --> 00:35:18.434 Yeah, yeah. 00:35:19.475 --> 00:35:20.296 I feel like it would be a miss 00:35:20.315 --> 00:35:21.796 to finish that section and not mention 00:35:21.915 --> 00:35:22.875 AEO, of course. 00:35:24.237 --> 00:35:25.477 We're moving away from TikTok. 00:35:25.517 --> 00:35:27.557 People are putting their Google questions 00:35:27.638 --> 00:35:29.619 into agents and seeing how it goes. 00:35:29.639 --> 00:35:30.899 That is, of course, 00:35:30.919 --> 00:35:31.719 something you need to track. 00:35:32.759 --> 00:35:33.400 How friendly are we? 00:35:33.420 --> 00:35:35.540 Can robots read our docs? 00:35:35.641 --> 00:35:37.141 You're not just writing for people 00:35:37.180 --> 00:35:39.382 anymore. 00:35:39.441 --> 00:35:39.661 Yeah. 00:35:40.682 --> 00:35:41.243 I feel like... 00:35:42.122 --> 00:35:43.484 I remembered the thing that I was going 00:35:43.504 --> 00:35:45.263 to say a few minutes ago. 00:35:45.544 --> 00:35:46.305 I feel like the... 00:35:48.462 --> 00:35:52.344 The idea that AI is going to solve 00:35:52.384 --> 00:35:54.906 all of our problems has kind of pulled 00:35:54.966 --> 00:35:55.946 back a little bit. 00:35:56.486 --> 00:35:56.826 Yeah. 00:35:56.986 --> 00:35:59.107 And so there's and I feel like that's 00:35:59.147 --> 00:36:00.468 a super healthy thing because I don't 00:36:00.488 --> 00:36:01.408 think it's going to solve all of our 00:36:01.428 --> 00:36:01.747 problems. 00:36:01.788 --> 00:36:01.928 I mean, 00:36:01.988 --> 00:36:04.669 I think that it'll solve or maybe help 00:36:04.768 --> 00:36:05.890 with many problems, 00:36:05.930 --> 00:36:07.569 but it's not going to it's not like 00:36:08.290 --> 00:36:09.671 we're not at the point where it hasn't 00:36:09.690 --> 00:36:10.551 cured cancer yet. 00:36:10.611 --> 00:36:11.812 So I don't know what we're waiting for. 00:36:13.433 --> 00:36:13.652 But 00:36:14.433 --> 00:36:16.453 But also, even in myself, 00:36:17.314 --> 00:36:20.096 whereas a few months ago, 00:36:20.877 --> 00:36:25.580 I would have immediately gone to AI with 00:36:25.701 --> 00:36:27.542 a question or something to search that I 00:36:27.562 --> 00:36:29.343 would have previously gone to Google. 00:36:29.363 --> 00:36:31.944 I've actually switched back to doing the 00:36:32.044 --> 00:36:35.286 actual search now because I feel like... 00:36:36.143 --> 00:36:37.044 Like, 00:36:37.064 --> 00:36:38.265 this is not a thing that I need 00:36:38.285 --> 00:36:38.844 an agent for. 00:36:38.864 --> 00:36:40.245 This is a thing that I can do 00:36:40.265 --> 00:36:41.167 with my actual brain. 00:36:43.768 --> 00:36:45.788 I feel like this is a thing that 00:36:46.830 --> 00:36:49.051 we're seeing kind of trend as well. 00:36:49.111 --> 00:36:49.270 Like, 00:36:49.310 --> 00:36:51.192 I feel like there's a little bit more 00:36:51.212 --> 00:36:54.433 AI realism, perhaps, happening. 00:36:55.674 --> 00:36:57.455 I saw a thing recently that was talking 00:36:57.475 --> 00:37:00.457 about a bunch of Gen Zs were... 00:37:01.810 --> 00:37:06.975 surveyed uh and the uh the consensus was 00:37:07.035 --> 00:37:09.417 that well not only so gen z is 00:37:09.536 --> 00:37:12.098 is like the most critical of ai but 00:37:12.118 --> 00:37:14.319 they also are the demographic that are 00:37:14.500 --> 00:37:16.841 using it the most um and i actually 00:37:16.861 --> 00:37:18.562 think this is actually really good because 00:37:19.163 --> 00:37:20.725 to be able to be critical about a 00:37:20.785 --> 00:37:22.625 thing and and potentially make changes and 00:37:22.667 --> 00:37:24.587 suggest changes and policies and whatever 00:37:25.245 --> 00:37:27.127 You need to be actually using the thing 00:37:27.388 --> 00:37:29.669 as opposed to like, you know, 00:37:30.310 --> 00:37:33.692 the Internet is made of tubes or, 00:37:34.553 --> 00:37:35.812 you know, it's like a dump truck, 00:37:36.114 --> 00:37:39.236 sort of like politicians in Washington, 00:37:39.256 --> 00:37:39.535 D.C., 00:37:39.556 --> 00:37:41.036 that have no idea what they're talking 00:37:41.076 --> 00:37:41.377 about. 00:37:41.437 --> 00:37:43.319 And they're making policies for everyone 00:37:43.399 --> 00:37:45.600 else based on these like really flawed 00:37:45.939 --> 00:37:46.460 assumptions. 00:37:48.538 --> 00:37:50.861 Yeah. 00:37:50.881 --> 00:37:51.201 I don't know. 00:37:51.321 --> 00:37:52.363 I think I agree. 00:37:52.382 --> 00:37:52.542 Like, 00:37:52.562 --> 00:37:54.084 it's hard to give feedback on something 00:37:54.625 --> 00:37:55.926 when you're not using it. 00:37:56.486 --> 00:37:57.848 And so I definitely think that's a good 00:37:58.147 --> 00:37:59.810 aspect of people using it. 00:37:59.910 --> 00:38:03.152 But I don't have a more complex thought 00:38:03.192 --> 00:38:03.754 on that right now. 00:38:05.866 --> 00:38:07.408 I know it's going to be like the 00:38:07.448 --> 00:38:09.950 original Ubers and DoorDashes where the 00:38:09.969 --> 00:38:11.310 price is going to be really easy and 00:38:11.330 --> 00:38:11.870 accessible. 00:38:11.910 --> 00:38:14.111 And then you kind of get accommodated to 00:38:14.151 --> 00:38:16.913 that lifestyle or those things that you 00:38:16.933 --> 00:38:17.913 now have available to you. 00:38:17.973 --> 00:38:19.495 And we're already seeing the price 00:38:19.515 --> 00:38:20.196 starting to go up. 00:38:20.236 --> 00:38:22.497 So I think it's going to be interesting 00:38:22.536 --> 00:38:23.236 what comes next. 00:38:24.417 --> 00:38:25.859 I don't have too much on the... 00:38:27.440 --> 00:38:28.480 policy side of things. 00:38:29.102 --> 00:38:30.542 But I do think we're going to see 00:38:30.642 --> 00:38:31.922 a resurgence of open source. 00:38:32.163 --> 00:38:34.482 We're going to start seeing more open 00:38:34.502 --> 00:38:35.623 weights, open models. 00:38:35.823 --> 00:38:36.623 I think that's going to become more 00:38:36.663 --> 00:38:40.404 popular as we're seeing the limited notice 00:38:40.424 --> 00:38:42.165 changes that are being made to proprietary 00:38:42.205 --> 00:38:42.585 models. 00:38:43.085 --> 00:38:44.826 You just kind of can't have a tool 00:38:44.866 --> 00:38:47.848 that may not be as available tomorrow as 00:38:47.888 --> 00:38:49.488 it is today because suddenly prices have 00:38:49.527 --> 00:38:51.968 changed or these like twenty four hour 00:38:51.989 --> 00:38:53.310 price cycles when it used to be 00:38:54.410 --> 00:38:56.310 months quarters years right it's 00:38:56.330 --> 00:39:03.174 interesting yeah yeah yeah yeah uh i think 00:39:03.435 --> 00:39:05.156 i think before we go i want to 00:39:05.397 --> 00:39:05.616 um uh 00:39:10.140 --> 00:39:10.321 I mean, 00:39:10.341 --> 00:39:13.364 you talked a little bit about this. 00:39:13.504 --> 00:39:16.627 I really liked your inclusion of building 00:39:16.669 --> 00:39:18.910 in whimsy. 00:39:19.352 --> 00:39:23.656 I feel like so much of tech and 00:39:23.696 --> 00:39:25.979 so much of, well, tech. 00:39:28.582 --> 00:39:31.966 doesn't doesn't allow space for that um 00:39:32.288 --> 00:39:34.591 and i so i i really love that 00:39:34.611 --> 00:39:36.513 and i feel like i feel like you 00:39:36.533 --> 00:39:37.576 know what we were talking about before 00:39:37.656 --> 00:39:40.078 like the sort of being able to to 00:39:40.120 --> 00:39:42.243 create things faster helps but like 00:39:44.718 --> 00:39:48.522 What other sorts of things do you think 00:39:48.622 --> 00:39:52.564 of or do that add whimsy to an 00:39:52.663 --> 00:39:56.767 otherwise potentially mundane and kind of 00:39:57.067 --> 00:39:58.428 bureaucratic life? 00:40:00.145 --> 00:40:00.587 Yeah, 00:40:00.607 --> 00:40:02.468 I think one of the ones that's been 00:40:02.509 --> 00:40:04.109 particularly fun for me lately is, 00:40:04.551 --> 00:40:04.971 like I said, 00:40:05.011 --> 00:40:06.332 I was originally a music major. 00:40:06.372 --> 00:40:06.553 Yeah. 00:40:07.093 --> 00:40:09.596 And I've been kind of rediscovering that 00:40:09.636 --> 00:40:10.877 side of my skills again. 00:40:11.098 --> 00:40:12.960 So I've been playing a little bit with 00:40:14.060 --> 00:40:16.544 Strudel with like either Claude or Codex 00:40:16.604 --> 00:40:16.703 and 00:40:17.719 --> 00:40:19.640 not really letting it generate the music 00:40:19.681 --> 00:40:21.562 so much as I have a pretty heavy 00:40:21.602 --> 00:40:22.442 theory background. 00:40:22.482 --> 00:40:24.645 So I've been like very opinionated on 00:40:24.705 --> 00:40:25.424 things like, okay, 00:40:25.464 --> 00:40:27.786 like I want a walking bass doing these 00:40:27.846 --> 00:40:29.368 kind of chords and these like underneath 00:40:29.388 --> 00:40:31.468 these guitar parts and stuff like that, 00:40:32.469 --> 00:40:33.149 which has been fun. 00:40:33.370 --> 00:40:34.690 And then that kind of, 00:40:34.730 --> 00:40:36.172 we just had our wedding anniversary as 00:40:36.212 --> 00:40:36.893 well recently. 00:40:37.053 --> 00:40:39.975 And I wrote and produced a song for 00:40:39.995 --> 00:40:41.276 my husband, which kind of came out of, 00:40:41.395 --> 00:40:42.457 I was dabbling with strudel. 00:40:42.497 --> 00:40:43.116 And then I was like, oh, 00:40:43.136 --> 00:40:44.018 this is really fun. 00:40:44.658 --> 00:40:46.459 I really missed this side of things. 00:40:46.538 --> 00:40:46.899 And yeah, 00:40:48.861 --> 00:40:49.942 That one wasn't with Strudel. 00:40:50.882 --> 00:40:53.143 That was me with a little MIDI keyboard 00:40:53.183 --> 00:40:55.605 over here and straight producing the notes 00:40:55.705 --> 00:40:56.926 every chord I played myself. 00:40:57.607 --> 00:40:59.368 But I think there's that side of tech 00:40:59.388 --> 00:41:02.392 where early on a lot of the technologists 00:41:02.631 --> 00:41:03.812 were hobbyists, right? 00:41:03.832 --> 00:41:05.194 It was something that we tinkered with. 00:41:05.214 --> 00:41:06.274 We had fun building. 00:41:06.314 --> 00:41:08.377 We did all these things. 00:41:09.096 --> 00:41:10.038 I think developers, 00:41:10.397 --> 00:41:11.899 you were looked at a little askance if 00:41:11.919 --> 00:41:14.120 you didn't have a weekend side project or 00:41:14.421 --> 00:41:15.843 something you were doing just for the sake 00:41:15.863 --> 00:41:16.102 of it. 00:41:17.408 --> 00:41:19.308 And I don't think that we should 00:41:19.348 --> 00:41:21.910 necessarily have to dedicate every waking 00:41:21.971 --> 00:41:24.152 hour to be considered a technologist, 00:41:24.172 --> 00:41:25.172 right? 00:41:25.212 --> 00:41:28.154 But I do like that this has made 00:41:28.174 --> 00:41:30.116 the lift to let me explore my hobbies 00:41:30.156 --> 00:41:32.118 again, whether that's, you know, 00:41:32.178 --> 00:41:34.819 creating stream countdowns for the live 00:41:34.839 --> 00:41:36.120 stream I'm going to be starting or whether 00:41:36.140 --> 00:41:38.582 that's rediscovering my love of music 00:41:38.622 --> 00:41:41.303 theory and composition or all these other 00:41:41.343 --> 00:41:42.984 little side projects that come along the 00:41:43.004 --> 00:41:44.346 way that let you dabble and kind of 00:41:44.366 --> 00:41:44.906 play with things. 00:41:45.727 --> 00:41:45.986 So me, 00:41:46.247 --> 00:41:47.888 I like that aspect that bring a little 00:41:47.928 --> 00:41:48.507 whimsy back, 00:41:48.547 --> 00:41:50.748 bring a little character and flavor and 00:41:50.788 --> 00:41:51.089 fun. 00:41:51.948 --> 00:41:52.408 It's really, 00:41:52.549 --> 00:41:54.450 it's really easy to just get stuck in 00:41:55.370 --> 00:41:57.971 the day to day and lose months or 00:41:58.011 --> 00:41:59.812 years after you've just been, you know, 00:41:59.991 --> 00:42:00.372 working, 00:42:00.832 --> 00:42:02.491 doing things and working and doing things. 00:42:02.551 --> 00:42:05.413 And yeah, yeah, 00:42:05.453 --> 00:42:06.513 I like bringing that stuff back. 00:42:07.803 --> 00:42:08.562 Even if it's, you know, 00:42:08.602 --> 00:42:09.623 it's sometimes it's little things. 00:42:09.663 --> 00:42:11.163 Like I've got a bunch of keyboards that 00:42:11.203 --> 00:42:13.024 I love that are actually all three of 00:42:13.044 --> 00:42:14.946 them are the magic girl keyboards and been 00:42:15.046 --> 00:42:16.225 trying out the new switches. 00:42:16.285 --> 00:42:17.986 And I think these ones are the melodics 00:42:18.026 --> 00:42:18.906 and they're, they're very pretty. 00:42:19.468 --> 00:42:20.207 So, you know, 00:42:20.227 --> 00:42:21.448 just bringing back the little hobbies, 00:42:36.522 --> 00:42:36.803 Yeah, 00:42:37.643 --> 00:42:39.725 my handle is mostly DevOpsJacquie on 00:42:40.026 --> 00:42:41.446 Twitter, Blue Sky, etc. 00:42:41.486 --> 00:42:43.828 And then I'm Jacquie Capur on LinkedIn. 00:42:44.169 --> 00:42:47.692 And I'm bringing back Instagram. 00:42:47.712 --> 00:42:50.334 I was like, which handle do I give? 00:42:50.354 --> 00:42:51.796 DevOpsJacquie will keep it consistent. 00:42:54.357 --> 00:42:54.658 Awesome. 00:42:54.698 --> 00:42:55.518 Well, thank you, Jacquie, 00:42:55.538 --> 00:42:56.678 for coming on to the show. 00:42:57.259 --> 00:42:57.739 Thank you, 00:42:57.799 --> 00:42:59.201 everyone who might be watching or 00:42:59.221 --> 00:43:00.502 listening to this in the future. 00:43:01.783 --> 00:43:03.285 And yeah, we'll see you on the internet. 00:43:04.000 --> 00:43:05.163 Yeah, thanks for bringing me on. 00:43:05.243 --> 00:43:06.687 And if you watch this and you have 00:43:06.707 --> 00:43:07.951 questions, please hit me up with them. 00:43:08.011 --> 00:43:08.875 I'd love to hear your thoughts and 00:43:08.895 --> 00:43:09.335 insights. 00:43:09.817 --> 00:43:10.861 Yeah, thanks. 00:43:10.881 --> 00:43:11.683 Thank you.