WEBVTT 00:00:00.499 --> 00:00:02.321 Hey folks, welcome to Community & Code. 00:00:02.421 --> 00:00:03.642 I'm your host, Chris Reynolds. 00:00:04.203 --> 00:00:05.404 This episode is going to be a little 00:00:05.484 --> 00:00:05.804 meta. 00:00:05.944 --> 00:00:07.726 I've been the guest on Nathan Wrigley's 00:00:07.746 --> 00:00:10.589 show WP Tavern Jukebox a couple of times, 00:00:10.929 --> 00:00:12.811 including recently when we recorded at 00:00:12.831 --> 00:00:14.433 WordCamp US in Phoenix. 00:00:15.094 --> 00:00:16.615 This time he's a guest on my show 00:00:16.675 --> 00:00:17.916 and he'll be the first to tell you 00:00:17.936 --> 00:00:19.538 that he's not used to being on that 00:00:19.638 --> 00:00:20.499 end of the microphone. 00:00:21.145 --> 00:00:23.026 If you spent any time around WordPress 00:00:23.086 --> 00:00:24.768 podcasting in the last decade, 00:00:24.808 --> 00:00:26.629 you would probably recognize Nathan's 00:00:26.669 --> 00:00:26.989 voice. 00:00:27.650 --> 00:00:29.991 WP builds the WP Tavern jukebox, 00:00:30.092 --> 00:00:31.673 something like twelve hundred episodes in 00:00:31.713 --> 00:00:32.013 total. 00:00:32.157 --> 00:00:32.317 all. 00:00:32.337 --> 00:00:33.638 But he says he's no better at it 00:00:33.678 --> 00:00:34.999 after all of that than he was at 00:00:35.019 --> 00:00:35.760 episode fifty. 00:00:36.615 --> 00:00:38.736 We get into how a Beaver Builder Facebook 00:00:38.796 --> 00:00:41.058 group accidentally turned into a ten-year 00:00:41.098 --> 00:00:41.538 career, 00:00:41.998 --> 00:00:44.980 why a childhood with BBC Radio Four on 00:00:45.000 --> 00:00:46.461 in the kitchen might be the reason he 00:00:46.501 --> 00:00:49.703 still picks audio over video, why RSS is, 00:00:49.824 --> 00:00:51.925 in his words, sublimely cool, 00:00:52.245 --> 00:00:53.766 and how it means nobody can take your 00:00:53.866 --> 00:00:54.747 audience away from you. 00:00:55.913 --> 00:00:57.475 And because we're both podcasters, 00:00:57.515 --> 00:00:59.377 we get into the thing that makes most 00:00:59.457 --> 00:01:02.100 podcasters quit around episode three, 00:01:03.101 --> 00:01:05.704 which I guess thankfully we've gotten past 00:01:05.724 --> 00:01:06.665 that on Community & Code, 00:01:07.005 --> 00:01:08.887 and what Nathan built to fix it. 00:01:09.448 --> 00:01:11.010 This is also the last episode before I 00:01:11.050 --> 00:01:13.112 take a break to recharge, so no pressure, 00:01:13.152 --> 00:01:13.493 Nathan. 00:01:14.013 --> 00:01:14.934 Without further ado, 00:01:15.114 --> 00:01:17.056 here's my conversation with Nathan 00:01:17.077 --> 00:01:17.397 Wrigley. 00:01:36.939 --> 00:01:38.139 Welcome to Community & Code, 00:01:38.159 --> 00:01:39.882 the podcast where we talk to the human 00:01:39.922 --> 00:01:41.443 beings behind the commits. 00:01:41.844 --> 00:01:43.505 And the human being that I have today 00:01:43.685 --> 00:01:44.887 is Nathan Wrigley. 00:01:45.387 --> 00:01:47.409 Nathan, you and I know each other. 00:01:47.670 --> 00:01:49.291 I've been on your podcast a couple times. 00:01:49.311 --> 00:01:50.854 Now it's your turn to be on my 00:01:50.913 --> 00:01:51.514 podcast. 00:01:52.276 --> 00:01:55.900 Tell the world about yourself if people 00:01:55.979 --> 00:01:57.421 are listening to this or watching this and 00:01:57.480 --> 00:01:58.883 don't know who you are already. 00:01:59.444 --> 00:02:01.025 I think that's quite likely, by the way. 00:02:01.965 --> 00:02:03.246 So my name is Nathan Wrigley. 00:02:03.465 --> 00:02:05.765 I am a WordPress person. 00:02:05.906 --> 00:02:06.546 Let's go with that. 00:02:07.046 --> 00:02:08.186 I'm certainly not a developer, 00:02:08.226 --> 00:02:09.586 but I'm very keen on the WordPress 00:02:09.607 --> 00:02:09.987 project. 00:02:10.046 --> 00:02:11.787 I've been using the software since 00:02:11.887 --> 00:02:14.147 probably about twenty fifteen, 00:02:14.448 --> 00:02:16.287 largely for client websites to begin with, 00:02:16.327 --> 00:02:18.528 and then kind of more or less accidentally 00:02:18.549 --> 00:02:20.308 fell into the podcasting space. 00:02:20.469 --> 00:02:22.490 And over the last ten or so years, 00:02:22.589 --> 00:02:23.729 that is what I've been doing, 00:02:23.769 --> 00:02:24.070 making 00:02:24.629 --> 00:02:26.211 audio content primarily, 00:02:27.192 --> 00:02:28.074 all about WordPress. 00:02:28.115 --> 00:02:29.015 So, you know, 00:02:29.036 --> 00:02:30.518 flipping the tables a little bit, 00:02:30.558 --> 00:02:33.741 having people like you on my podcast 00:02:33.762 --> 00:02:36.004 talking about the various different bits 00:02:36.025 --> 00:02:36.726 and pieces, 00:02:36.786 --> 00:02:38.126 the themes that they're developing, 00:02:38.147 --> 00:02:39.549 the community initiatives that they're 00:02:39.568 --> 00:02:39.850 doing. 00:02:40.309 --> 00:02:41.791 So it's about really raising the... 00:02:42.653 --> 00:02:44.053 raising the voices of other people. 00:02:44.133 --> 00:02:45.835 And I've got to say, it's so weird. 00:02:46.815 --> 00:02:48.377 I am definitely going to start asking 00:02:48.418 --> 00:02:51.160 questions at some point because I'm not 00:02:51.259 --> 00:02:55.463 used to being on the other end. 00:02:55.762 --> 00:02:57.324 Well, that's, I mean, that's totally fine. 00:02:58.305 --> 00:02:58.645 What's, 00:02:59.246 --> 00:03:00.547 So, I mean, you've got, yeah, you've, 00:03:00.607 --> 00:03:01.749 you've mentioned that you have a couple of 00:03:01.788 --> 00:03:03.229 different podcasts going on. 00:03:03.369 --> 00:03:04.871 What, uh, what are, 00:03:05.452 --> 00:03:07.094 and what are the different things you, 00:03:07.193 --> 00:03:08.936 that you have, I guess, currently, 00:03:09.056 --> 00:03:11.097 and maybe what are there some that are 00:03:11.137 --> 00:03:12.719 retired that you're not doing anymore? 00:03:13.249 --> 00:03:13.550 Yeah, 00:03:13.630 --> 00:03:16.312 so the ones that I'm currently doing, 00:03:16.433 --> 00:03:18.354 the longest running one is called WP 00:03:18.415 --> 00:03:20.677 Builds with an S on the end. 00:03:21.097 --> 00:03:23.119 And I've been doing that since twenty 00:03:23.300 --> 00:03:23.960 sixteen. 00:03:24.000 --> 00:03:25.942 That's still ongoing. 00:03:26.062 --> 00:03:27.544 And I do a couple of shows every 00:03:27.564 --> 00:03:29.386 week, a recorded podcast. 00:03:29.425 --> 00:03:31.448 So, you know, record it with the guest. 00:03:31.987 --> 00:03:35.169 async like we're doing now and then edit 00:03:35.189 --> 00:03:37.109 it and push it live usually on a 00:03:37.169 --> 00:03:39.451 Thursday and then I do a live one 00:03:39.571 --> 00:03:43.193 every Monday with three typically other 00:03:43.232 --> 00:03:44.972 panelists so there's me and three other 00:03:45.013 --> 00:03:46.534 people and we talk about the WordPress 00:03:46.573 --> 00:03:48.454 news from the previous week so so that's 00:03:48.475 --> 00:03:50.876 that one and then over the last oh 00:03:51.835 --> 00:03:53.477 About two hundred and twenty episodes. 00:03:53.497 --> 00:03:54.358 So what's that? 00:03:54.418 --> 00:03:55.780 About four years, more or less. 00:03:56.220 --> 00:03:58.362 I've been doing a podcast of a very 00:03:58.401 --> 00:03:59.263 similar nature, 00:03:59.322 --> 00:04:01.824 pre-recorded for WP Tavern, 00:04:02.905 --> 00:04:05.608 which is an outfit which has been around 00:04:05.628 --> 00:04:06.568 for much, 00:04:06.608 --> 00:04:08.210 much longer than I have in the WordPress 00:04:08.251 --> 00:04:08.671 space. 00:04:09.072 --> 00:04:11.132 Originally started by Jeff Chandler and it 00:04:11.173 --> 00:04:13.796 kind of became the newspaper of record for 00:04:13.816 --> 00:04:14.757 a long period of time. 00:04:14.816 --> 00:04:17.038 Justin Tadlock and Sarah Gooding joined 00:04:18.180 --> 00:04:20.264 wrote great content but sadly the the 00:04:20.286 --> 00:04:22.130 written portion of that has kind of died 00:04:22.190 --> 00:04:24.214 off hopefully something will be done about 00:04:24.255 --> 00:04:25.156 that in the near future 00:04:26.616 --> 00:04:28.157 And then I've had various other podcasts 00:04:28.178 --> 00:04:29.878 in the WordPress space and other, 00:04:30.560 --> 00:04:30.799 you know, 00:04:30.840 --> 00:04:32.199 podcasts that I've done as sort of 00:04:32.220 --> 00:04:32.620 gimmicks, 00:04:32.661 --> 00:04:34.922 which I haven't really managed to keep up 00:04:34.961 --> 00:04:35.281 as well. 00:04:35.341 --> 00:04:37.964 So I think I calculated the other day 00:04:38.003 --> 00:04:39.524 that I've done about twelve hundred 00:04:39.564 --> 00:04:40.165 episodes. 00:04:40.204 --> 00:04:42.185 So definitely been around the houses. 00:04:42.566 --> 00:04:42.846 Thing is, 00:04:42.886 --> 00:04:44.366 not much has changed in that time. 00:04:44.406 --> 00:04:46.247 So it's not like twelve hundred episodes 00:04:46.328 --> 00:04:46.528 in. 00:04:47.128 --> 00:04:47.828 I'm any better. 00:04:47.948 --> 00:04:50.731 Fifty episodes. 00:04:50.890 --> 00:04:51.830 It's more or less the same. 00:04:51.870 --> 00:04:53.091 Just the content is different. 00:04:55.167 --> 00:04:57.469 um yeah i mean ten years is is 00:04:57.529 --> 00:05:00.108 nothing to to sniff at for for wp 00:05:00.168 --> 00:05:03.149 builds um you said you you accidentally 00:05:03.370 --> 00:05:04.989 fell into podcasting how do you 00:05:05.130 --> 00:05:07.990 accidentally start a podcast well so it 00:05:08.011 --> 00:05:09.930 was really i mean bud says that he 00:05:09.990 --> 00:05:13.871 accidentally started a podcast yeah he was 00:05:13.911 --> 00:05:17.433 copying me uh so the about ten years 00:05:17.472 --> 00:05:19.913 ago when i began that it's maybe it's 00:05:19.934 --> 00:05:20.793 coming up to eleven now 00:05:22.014 --> 00:05:24.297 The Facebook groups were a really big 00:05:24.336 --> 00:05:24.556 thing. 00:05:24.596 --> 00:05:25.556 In the WordPress space, 00:05:25.577 --> 00:05:27.258 lots of people were getting their 00:05:27.279 --> 00:05:29.520 questions answered and forming these 00:05:29.541 --> 00:05:30.140 communities. 00:05:30.661 --> 00:05:33.804 And I jumped into one with a plugin 00:05:33.823 --> 00:05:35.285 that I was using at the time called 00:05:35.345 --> 00:05:36.085 Beaver Builder, 00:05:36.946 --> 00:05:38.066 which is like a page builder. 00:05:38.086 --> 00:05:41.229 It's one of the earlier page builders. 00:05:41.250 --> 00:05:41.810 Let's put it that way. 00:05:41.829 --> 00:05:42.810 They've been around for ages. 00:05:43.451 --> 00:05:44.811 And I was looking for some help. 00:05:44.871 --> 00:05:46.572 And so dropped into the Beaver Builder 00:05:46.592 --> 00:05:49.354 Facebook group and met a variety of 00:05:49.394 --> 00:05:50.076 different people, 00:05:50.215 --> 00:05:52.276 one of whom was a friend, 00:05:53.178 --> 00:05:55.319 became a friend called David Wormsley. 00:05:55.740 --> 00:05:57.221 And we got chatting offline. 00:05:57.500 --> 00:05:58.762 And I just said, 00:05:58.781 --> 00:06:01.122 do you fancy recording some content? 00:06:01.163 --> 00:06:02.204 So I think we did a couple of 00:06:02.223 --> 00:06:02.584 videos. 00:06:02.605 --> 00:06:03.565 And then I one day said, 00:06:03.584 --> 00:06:04.666 do you want to do a podcast? 00:06:04.706 --> 00:06:06.567 And we agreed to do like three or 00:06:06.606 --> 00:06:08.228 four episodes and see how it went. 00:06:08.808 --> 00:06:08.949 And 00:06:10.147 --> 00:06:13.027 Yeah, never stopped, basically. 00:06:13.288 --> 00:06:15.228 David stepped aside about seven years 00:06:15.288 --> 00:06:15.647 later. 00:06:15.707 --> 00:06:17.649 He's still doing a podcast with me. 00:06:18.129 --> 00:06:20.688 We're doing a podcast about HTML and CSS, 00:06:20.788 --> 00:06:22.009 just, you know, 00:06:22.449 --> 00:06:26.310 no CMS in sight called the NoScript Show. 00:06:26.370 --> 00:06:28.231 So we pivoted and we carried on our 00:06:28.250 --> 00:06:29.130 adventure over there. 00:06:29.190 --> 00:06:31.110 But he stepped away from the WordPress 00:06:31.130 --> 00:06:31.471 community. 00:06:31.690 --> 00:06:32.752 So that was the accident. 00:06:32.832 --> 00:06:33.711 I say it was an accident. 00:06:33.772 --> 00:06:34.832 It was kind of intentional, 00:06:34.851 --> 00:06:37.452 but definitely didn't intend it to be what 00:06:37.692 --> 00:06:39.692 I did for a decade, which is... 00:06:40.113 --> 00:06:40.872 how it turned out. 00:06:40.993 --> 00:06:41.514 Yeah. 00:06:41.613 --> 00:06:42.634 Yeah. 00:06:42.694 --> 00:06:42.913 Yeah. 00:06:42.954 --> 00:06:45.476 Well, I mean, I, I started, uh, 00:06:45.495 --> 00:06:47.476 a podcast with a couple of friends, uh, 00:06:47.497 --> 00:06:48.897 probably, uh, 00:06:48.918 --> 00:06:50.158 I don't know how many years ago. 00:06:50.178 --> 00:06:54.000 Uh, it's gotta be ten plus, 00:06:54.120 --> 00:06:56.380 I think at this point, um, for, 00:06:56.401 --> 00:06:57.562 for sort of similar reasons, 00:06:57.601 --> 00:06:59.043 it was one of those things where like, 00:06:59.502 --> 00:07:02.183 we couldn't convince ourselves that it was 00:07:02.223 --> 00:07:02.945 a bad idea. 00:07:04.005 --> 00:07:04.526 Oh, great. 00:07:07.247 --> 00:07:07.486 Yeah, yeah. 00:07:07.507 --> 00:07:08.108 Go for it. 00:07:08.207 --> 00:07:09.527 Yeah, why not? 00:07:09.587 --> 00:07:11.509 It was like, we shouldn't do this, right? 00:07:12.110 --> 00:07:14.110 And there was no reason to not do 00:07:14.171 --> 00:07:14.310 it. 00:07:14.331 --> 00:07:15.591 So it was like, well, 00:07:15.632 --> 00:07:16.793 we could try it and see how it 00:07:16.812 --> 00:07:16.973 goes. 00:07:17.272 --> 00:07:19.714 And it was funny because, okay, 00:07:21.495 --> 00:07:22.755 so this is binary jazz, 00:07:22.796 --> 00:07:24.077 and I did it with a couple of 00:07:24.836 --> 00:07:27.998 alumni from Web Dev Studios that, 00:07:28.539 --> 00:07:29.199 ironically, 00:07:29.620 --> 00:07:32.421 I think we've sensed 00:07:32.721 --> 00:07:34.462 continued hanging out and keeping the 00:07:34.483 --> 00:07:34.723 calls. 00:07:34.743 --> 00:07:35.904 We just don't record them anymore. 00:07:36.925 --> 00:07:38.827 But we calculated that the amount of time 00:07:38.846 --> 00:07:41.168 that we actually overlapped at Web Dev 00:07:41.207 --> 00:07:43.690 Studios was probably not much more than 00:07:44.110 --> 00:07:45.812 six or nine months. 00:07:46.432 --> 00:07:47.233 It was very short. 00:07:47.272 --> 00:07:49.173 And for me and Gary, 00:07:51.036 --> 00:07:54.777 we were sort of like the central 00:07:55.858 --> 00:07:57.159 fulcrum of the show, 00:07:57.800 --> 00:07:59.461 we had only overlapped for like a month. 00:07:59.500 --> 00:08:01.002 And I was like his I was his 00:08:01.062 --> 00:08:02.942 manager and I trained him and then I 00:08:02.983 --> 00:08:03.923 immediately dipped. 00:08:03.983 --> 00:08:08.827 And and so the reason the reason that 00:08:08.926 --> 00:08:09.947 podcast came out, 00:08:10.007 --> 00:08:11.228 the sort of story behind it is he 00:08:11.247 --> 00:08:14.070 would come across a code of mine or 00:08:14.170 --> 00:08:16.510 something that reminded him of me after I 00:08:16.531 --> 00:08:16.992 was gone. 00:08:17.051 --> 00:08:19.692 And he would send me the gif of 00:08:19.973 --> 00:08:22.315 Fry from Futurama Moon, 00:08:22.394 --> 00:08:23.935 like rubbing his butt on the window. 00:08:24.815 --> 00:08:26.036 And he would just send it to me 00:08:26.416 --> 00:08:28.777 on Twitter with no context whatsoever. 00:08:28.877 --> 00:08:29.437 And I was just like, 00:08:29.457 --> 00:08:30.558 I don't know what's going on. 00:08:31.418 --> 00:08:33.680 And we'd get into these weird arguments 00:08:33.719 --> 00:08:35.200 about things online. 00:08:35.380 --> 00:08:38.041 And then our mutual friend who has also 00:08:38.242 --> 00:08:40.322 spent time at WebDev, Allison Tarr, 00:08:40.683 --> 00:08:42.223 would make commentary. 00:08:42.243 --> 00:08:43.123 And she's like, 00:08:43.144 --> 00:08:45.005 you both should start a podcast and just 00:08:45.084 --> 00:08:46.546 argue like old married couple. 00:08:47.726 --> 00:08:49.827 And we were like, well, 00:08:49.867 --> 00:08:51.067 if we're going to be on a podcast, 00:08:51.087 --> 00:08:52.428 then you should be on the podcast with 00:08:52.527 --> 00:08:52.647 us. 00:08:54.348 --> 00:08:55.469 And yeah, we started it, 00:08:55.550 --> 00:08:59.231 and it started off with Allison would come 00:08:59.272 --> 00:09:01.593 up with some sort of topic that we 00:09:01.613 --> 00:09:03.594 didn't know anything about beforehand, 00:09:03.634 --> 00:09:06.235 and we had to make up what we 00:09:06.276 --> 00:09:07.916 thought the topic was. 00:09:07.976 --> 00:09:09.497 So she brought us, 00:09:10.017 --> 00:09:11.618 one of the ones I remember is Petrichor. 00:09:11.699 --> 00:09:12.699 Petrichor is the theme. 00:09:13.180 --> 00:09:15.122 And Gary and I don't know what Petrichory 00:09:15.142 --> 00:09:15.242 is. 00:09:15.281 --> 00:09:16.462 I mean, I know what it is now, 00:09:17.303 --> 00:09:18.183 but I didn't know at the time. 00:09:18.505 --> 00:09:20.786 So trying to come up with what could 00:09:20.827 --> 00:09:22.408 that possibly mean and how can we have 00:09:22.428 --> 00:09:23.769 a conversation about this thing that we 00:09:23.788 --> 00:09:25.409 don't know what it means and make it 00:09:25.509 --> 00:09:29.012 interesting for a Zoom length of time, 00:09:29.033 --> 00:09:30.755 because I was using Zoom at the time 00:09:31.414 --> 00:09:32.957 and Free Zoom. 00:09:32.997 --> 00:09:34.497 So it would cut off at exactly forty 00:09:34.517 --> 00:09:36.319 minutes, which was good for podcasting. 00:09:36.339 --> 00:09:37.700 Oh, that's a good length. 00:09:37.760 --> 00:09:37.921 Yeah. 00:09:39.101 --> 00:09:40.082 So we just let, 00:09:40.522 --> 00:09:43.666 allowed for the Zoom cutoff to be part 00:09:43.726 --> 00:09:44.206 of the show. 00:09:44.266 --> 00:09:46.908 So we would always cut off mid-sentence at 00:09:46.928 --> 00:09:48.389 the end. 00:09:48.449 --> 00:09:49.690 And so it would be interesting to see 00:09:49.990 --> 00:09:50.651 what happens, 00:09:51.791 --> 00:09:53.334 where in the sentence it gets cut off. 00:09:53.873 --> 00:09:55.735 Who gets the sword of Damocles at the 00:09:55.755 --> 00:09:56.596 very last moment. 00:09:56.615 --> 00:09:57.135 That's great. 00:09:57.396 --> 00:09:59.418 Then the lovely thing about podcasting, 00:09:59.457 --> 00:10:02.300 which so obviously anybody listening to 00:10:02.339 --> 00:10:04.260 this is clearly, you know, into that. 00:10:04.300 --> 00:10:06.863 So it's I guess I'm preaching to the 00:10:06.902 --> 00:10:07.642 choir a little bit. 00:10:08.123 --> 00:10:09.844 But the the bit that really always 00:10:09.864 --> 00:10:12.686 appealed to me is that I was kind 00:10:12.727 --> 00:10:15.208 of a how to describe it. 00:10:15.748 --> 00:10:17.869 I didn't choose to listen to audio as 00:10:17.910 --> 00:10:18.270 a kid. 00:10:18.410 --> 00:10:19.950 It was something that was kind of forced 00:10:20.031 --> 00:10:22.193 on me, but completely subliminally. 00:10:22.652 --> 00:10:24.374 We have a lot of talk radio in 00:10:24.395 --> 00:10:24.695 the UK, 00:10:24.734 --> 00:10:27.677 and one of the stations is called Radio 00:10:27.718 --> 00:10:30.021 Four, and it's done by the BBC, 00:10:30.060 --> 00:10:31.781 and it's news and commentary and guest 00:10:31.801 --> 00:10:32.083 shows, 00:10:32.122 --> 00:10:34.624 but it basically involves human beings 00:10:34.704 --> 00:10:36.946 talking all the time in one way or 00:10:36.967 --> 00:10:37.247 another. 00:10:37.767 --> 00:10:39.570 And my parents would have this on all 00:10:39.609 --> 00:10:40.070 the time. 00:10:40.992 --> 00:10:41.672 In the kitchen. 00:10:42.093 --> 00:10:43.834 And it was just permanently on and it 00:10:43.873 --> 00:10:44.935 was background noise. 00:10:44.954 --> 00:10:47.897 But what was curious is I remember being 00:10:47.938 --> 00:10:50.320 in like history lessons and things like 00:10:50.339 --> 00:10:50.540 that. 00:10:51.060 --> 00:10:53.281 And I was unable to explain how I 00:10:53.321 --> 00:10:54.944 knew the answer to questions. 00:10:55.544 --> 00:10:56.084 Just like, 00:10:56.165 --> 00:10:57.465 how do I know the answer to that? 00:10:57.506 --> 00:10:59.227 And in more or less every case, 00:10:59.247 --> 00:11:01.108 there was this just this background noise. 00:11:01.128 --> 00:11:02.910 A program had been on a history program. 00:11:03.470 --> 00:11:05.372 I'd been doing my homework or whatever it 00:11:05.392 --> 00:11:05.813 was, you know, 00:11:05.853 --> 00:11:07.633 eating a meal and it had gone in. 00:11:08.374 --> 00:11:09.175 So anyway, 00:11:09.396 --> 00:11:11.076 I made that realization early on. 00:11:11.276 --> 00:11:13.257 I realized that I really liked audio 00:11:13.297 --> 00:11:15.359 because you could do many other things at 00:11:15.379 --> 00:11:16.099 the same time. 00:11:16.400 --> 00:11:17.861 You could be doing the vacuuming or doing 00:11:17.881 --> 00:11:19.301 the dishes or walking the dog. 00:11:19.321 --> 00:11:20.723 Your eyeballs are not on it. 00:11:21.343 --> 00:11:23.525 And so to this day, 00:11:23.624 --> 00:11:27.347 I still prefer listening to audio than I 00:11:27.406 --> 00:11:29.969 do to consuming, let's say, 00:11:29.988 --> 00:11:32.010 YouTube or watching telly just because I 00:11:32.050 --> 00:11:33.992 can be doing things simultaneously. 00:11:34.632 --> 00:11:35.031 But also, 00:11:35.093 --> 00:11:37.234 I really love the fact that the impediment 00:11:37.254 --> 00:11:40.137 to getting started was practically zero. 00:11:40.777 --> 00:11:41.839 I mean, if you wish, 00:11:41.878 --> 00:11:43.621 you can spend an absolute fortune on a 00:11:43.680 --> 00:11:43.940 really, 00:11:43.980 --> 00:11:48.266 really nice mic and a fabulous computer 00:11:48.725 --> 00:11:50.427 with wonderful editing software and all 00:11:50.448 --> 00:11:50.588 that. 00:11:51.068 --> 00:11:52.690 But really, really, 00:11:52.790 --> 00:11:54.311 you need the phone in your pocket. 00:11:54.712 --> 00:11:57.073 That's probably a credible enough 00:11:57.132 --> 00:11:58.054 recording device. 00:11:58.414 --> 00:12:00.015 It won't sound like, you know, 00:12:00.834 --> 00:12:03.156 the amazing studio quality that you can 00:12:03.196 --> 00:12:04.296 get from expensive mics, 00:12:04.337 --> 00:12:06.858 but it's enough for you to get started. 00:12:06.898 --> 00:12:09.379 And so I love that sort of disposable 00:12:09.420 --> 00:12:10.079 nature of it. 00:12:10.140 --> 00:12:10.700 In other words, 00:12:11.261 --> 00:12:12.821 I've put no money into it. 00:12:12.962 --> 00:12:16.143 I could try five episodes recording on my 00:12:16.184 --> 00:12:16.464 phone. 00:12:16.483 --> 00:12:17.383 And if I don't like it, 00:12:17.444 --> 00:12:18.244 I'll just stop. 00:12:18.785 --> 00:12:20.225 Because I haven't invested a lot in a 00:12:20.246 --> 00:12:21.127 technology stack. 00:12:21.166 --> 00:12:22.988 I haven't invested a lot in hosting. 00:12:23.307 --> 00:12:24.348 And if I'm not enjoying it, 00:12:24.388 --> 00:12:25.989 let's just try another one and try another 00:12:26.070 --> 00:12:26.970 one and try another one. 00:12:27.171 --> 00:12:29.672 And I really like that about the format. 00:12:30.213 --> 00:12:32.494 Audio to me is just fabulous. 00:12:32.555 --> 00:12:35.717 And in the era of doom scrolling and 00:12:35.757 --> 00:12:36.238 all of that, 00:12:36.297 --> 00:12:38.699 I think it's the perfect antidote to that 00:12:38.738 --> 00:12:39.079 as well. 00:12:39.140 --> 00:12:41.701 And you get this sort of vicarious passive 00:12:41.762 --> 00:12:42.941 learning at the same time. 00:12:43.042 --> 00:12:44.103 I love it. 00:12:44.302 --> 00:12:44.723 Anyway, sorry, 00:12:44.743 --> 00:12:45.743 you didn't even ask me that as a 00:12:45.805 --> 00:12:46.104 question. 00:12:46.165 --> 00:12:47.225 I just thought I'd ramble. 00:12:47.845 --> 00:12:51.868 Hey, that's what this show is all about. 00:12:52.148 --> 00:12:52.868 You mentioned, too, 00:12:53.248 --> 00:12:56.190 that the technology hasn't really changed 00:12:56.230 --> 00:12:56.612 very much. 00:12:56.632 --> 00:12:58.032 It's still RSS-based. 00:12:58.073 --> 00:13:00.493 There's no newfangled thing. 00:13:00.853 --> 00:13:03.996 It's pretty much the same format, 00:13:04.016 --> 00:13:07.319 the same delivery mechanism that it's been 00:13:07.539 --> 00:13:08.039 since. 00:13:08.518 --> 00:13:10.741 And one of the things that I actually 00:13:10.800 --> 00:13:14.022 learned relatively recently, 00:13:14.063 --> 00:13:15.283 last year at WordCamp Canada, 00:13:15.844 --> 00:13:19.206 was that um because the the guy who 00:13:19.686 --> 00:13:23.249 developed or dave weiner yeah the the rss 00:13:23.511 --> 00:13:26.772 uh the rss protocol was was there as 00:13:26.792 --> 00:13:28.094 a speaker and he and he said that 00:13:28.113 --> 00:13:31.357 part of what uh what led to the 00:13:31.397 --> 00:13:34.640 success of rss was podcasting yeah it was 00:13:34.660 --> 00:13:37.002 like that it just it just fit naturally 00:13:37.061 --> 00:13:37.242 like 00:13:38.363 --> 00:13:40.705 Not that subscribing to a blog or 00:13:40.766 --> 00:13:43.528 something was not something that was 00:13:43.608 --> 00:13:44.810 valuable or is valuable. 00:13:44.890 --> 00:13:46.531 I think that that's really good for 00:13:46.691 --> 00:13:47.733 syndication and stuff. 00:13:48.795 --> 00:13:50.757 I definitely used it when I was building 00:13:50.796 --> 00:13:52.459 things, but there's... 00:13:53.760 --> 00:13:58.762 It just lends itself to this medium just 00:13:58.782 --> 00:14:00.824 sort of perfectly without having to change 00:14:00.883 --> 00:14:01.304 anything. 00:14:01.863 --> 00:14:02.123 No, 00:14:02.503 --> 00:14:05.506 it is a sublimely cool piece of 00:14:05.565 --> 00:14:06.886 technology, RSS. 00:14:06.946 --> 00:14:07.587 So, I mean, 00:14:08.046 --> 00:14:09.747 if you're not really that familiar with 00:14:09.988 --> 00:14:12.248 what's going on in the background of your 00:14:12.829 --> 00:14:13.709 podcast player, 00:14:13.729 --> 00:14:17.011 whether that's Spotify or Apple Podcasts 00:14:17.050 --> 00:14:19.151 or Pocket Casts or AntennaPod, 00:14:19.171 --> 00:14:19.872 whatever it may be, 00:14:19.912 --> 00:14:21.252 whatever you've got on your phone or on 00:14:21.292 --> 00:14:21.434 your... 00:14:22.434 --> 00:14:23.555 you know, your desktop or whatever. 00:14:24.036 --> 00:14:25.657 It's basically an RSS feed, which is, 00:14:25.858 --> 00:14:27.339 it's like an HTML document, 00:14:27.359 --> 00:14:30.542 but with slightly different tags in it. 00:14:30.642 --> 00:14:31.344 So, you know, 00:14:31.363 --> 00:14:32.886 there's got to be a description and a 00:14:32.945 --> 00:14:33.406 title. 00:14:33.445 --> 00:14:36.008 And then often there's an episode album 00:14:36.089 --> 00:14:36.270 art, 00:14:36.670 --> 00:14:38.492 which you probably might not get with a 00:14:38.551 --> 00:14:39.052 blog post. 00:14:39.473 --> 00:14:41.454 But then also the audio. 00:14:42.435 --> 00:14:43.595 And then in the future, 00:14:43.636 --> 00:14:44.955 there are a few things creeping in, 00:14:45.016 --> 00:14:46.637 like who are the guests? 00:14:46.997 --> 00:14:49.179 That's coming in what's called podcasting 00:14:49.199 --> 00:14:51.760 two point O. But it's totally open. 00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:54.421 So what that means is that you can 00:14:54.462 --> 00:14:57.544 be storing it on any host you like. 00:14:57.564 --> 00:14:59.084 So you could have it on hosting company 00:14:59.124 --> 00:15:01.166 over here and overnight they double their 00:15:01.205 --> 00:15:01.646 prices. 00:15:01.705 --> 00:15:03.688 Well, you just take it somewhere else. 00:15:04.448 --> 00:15:05.589 and put it over there. 00:15:05.628 --> 00:15:07.989 And there's absolutely no friction to 00:15:08.010 --> 00:15:08.190 that. 00:15:08.229 --> 00:15:10.050 Taking it from one host to another host. 00:15:10.710 --> 00:15:12.752 If the hosts honor what they should be 00:15:12.791 --> 00:15:13.132 honoring, 00:15:13.171 --> 00:15:15.792 and please double check before you buy in 00:15:15.833 --> 00:15:16.473 the first place, 00:15:17.074 --> 00:15:18.674 your audience goes with you. 00:15:18.694 --> 00:15:20.874 They don't have to update anything. 00:15:21.295 --> 00:15:22.496 Literally, they do nothing. 00:15:22.516 --> 00:15:24.517 They'll still get your podcast episodes 00:15:24.536 --> 00:15:26.677 because they subscribe to your RSS feed. 00:15:27.277 --> 00:15:28.959 And your old host just needs to point 00:15:28.978 --> 00:15:30.758 to your new host and yada, yada, 00:15:30.778 --> 00:15:31.179 you're done. 00:15:31.859 --> 00:15:33.900 And I love the fact that it's not 00:15:33.979 --> 00:15:34.521 locked in. 00:15:35.700 --> 00:15:38.401 You are the, I'm going to say owner, 00:15:38.421 --> 00:15:39.122 that's the wrong word, 00:15:39.161 --> 00:15:41.182 but you are the owner of your audience, 00:15:41.243 --> 00:15:41.963 if you know what I mean. 00:15:42.042 --> 00:15:43.403 So you can't... 00:15:44.584 --> 00:15:46.246 You know, like on, let's say, YouTube, 00:15:46.266 --> 00:15:47.867 you've spent ten years building up a 00:15:47.887 --> 00:15:49.449 following on YouTube and then for some 00:15:50.008 --> 00:15:52.411 unknown reason, YouTube just decide, no, 00:15:52.430 --> 00:15:54.652 no, no, we don't like you anymore. 00:15:54.733 --> 00:15:56.114 And it happens. 00:15:56.175 --> 00:15:58.357 It's rare, I'll admit, but it does happen. 00:15:59.858 --> 00:16:03.302 You've got no way of actually being in 00:16:03.343 --> 00:16:04.003 control of that. 00:16:04.064 --> 00:16:05.946 If Facebook decide to shut you down and 00:16:05.987 --> 00:16:07.809 your Facebook group gets closed off and 00:16:07.829 --> 00:16:10.093 that's how you've decided to figure out 00:16:10.113 --> 00:16:10.914 where your audience is, 00:16:11.294 --> 00:16:12.977 there's not much you can do about that. 00:16:13.017 --> 00:16:14.799 Same with YouTube, but podcasting, 00:16:15.560 --> 00:16:17.220 you're in great shape. 00:16:17.241 --> 00:16:18.342 You just move it somewhere else, 00:16:18.401 --> 00:16:20.363 and literally within seconds, 00:16:20.544 --> 00:16:21.905 everything is back where it should have 00:16:21.925 --> 00:16:22.084 been. 00:16:22.145 --> 00:16:22.704 It's amazing. 00:16:23.065 --> 00:16:23.925 There are, by the way, 00:16:24.367 --> 00:16:26.848 a couple of very slight innovations, 00:16:26.907 --> 00:16:29.410 and they're largely being driven by the... 00:16:30.590 --> 00:16:32.512 by the YouTubes of this world. 00:16:32.552 --> 00:16:34.195 And one of them is HLS Video, 00:16:34.214 --> 00:16:35.776 which is popping up all over the place. 00:16:35.816 --> 00:16:38.760 And HLS Video is such a great idea. 00:16:39.361 --> 00:16:40.782 I kind of hope it doesn't get stuck 00:16:40.802 --> 00:16:41.983 behind walled gardens. 00:16:42.044 --> 00:16:44.205 And there's definitely moves from podcast 00:16:44.246 --> 00:16:45.688 players and different hosting companies to 00:16:45.747 --> 00:16:46.209 adopt it. 00:16:46.628 --> 00:16:49.272 But it means that you can do audio 00:16:49.953 --> 00:16:50.694 or video 00:16:51.533 --> 00:16:53.254 Or audio and video. 00:16:53.655 --> 00:16:54.536 So let's say, for example, 00:16:54.555 --> 00:16:57.056 you're watching on your Apple TV and you, 00:16:57.076 --> 00:16:57.456 I don't know, 00:16:57.477 --> 00:16:59.218 you get thirty five minutes and six 00:16:59.257 --> 00:17:00.497 seconds into an episode. 00:17:00.517 --> 00:17:01.658 You can press pause, 00:17:02.098 --> 00:17:03.619 go to your podcast player, 00:17:03.760 --> 00:17:06.041 which doesn't support the video and you 00:17:06.080 --> 00:17:08.181 can press play and it will take it 00:17:08.201 --> 00:17:10.282 will go from exactly where you were. 00:17:11.142 --> 00:17:13.645 And so we're so used to the audio 00:17:13.685 --> 00:17:14.425 being separate. 00:17:14.464 --> 00:17:15.105 In this case, 00:17:15.366 --> 00:17:17.267 they are exactly the same entity. 00:17:17.306 --> 00:17:19.689 The video is the same as the audio, 00:17:20.388 --> 00:17:22.190 but also you don't download the whole 00:17:22.209 --> 00:17:22.531 thing. 00:17:23.050 --> 00:17:25.752 So if you're listening to the audio only, 00:17:25.833 --> 00:17:27.373 it just downloads a little bit and then 00:17:27.393 --> 00:17:28.535 a little bit more and a little bit 00:17:28.574 --> 00:17:29.614 more and a little bit more if that's 00:17:29.635 --> 00:17:30.675 the way you decide to do it. 00:17:30.715 --> 00:17:32.257 So there's a few innovations, 00:17:32.296 --> 00:17:34.719 but they're hopefully not upsetting the 00:17:34.738 --> 00:17:36.780 bedrock, which is RSS. 00:17:36.859 --> 00:17:37.820 And by the way, yeah, thank you, 00:17:37.861 --> 00:17:38.361 Dave Weiner. 00:17:39.041 --> 00:17:40.002 We're all in your debt. 00:17:41.622 --> 00:17:43.084 yeah well the thing that I've always 00:17:43.204 --> 00:17:46.964 thought was really sort of liberating 00:17:47.124 --> 00:17:53.546 about podcasts specifically is it's so 00:17:53.666 --> 00:17:57.667 easy to find like I've you know I 00:17:57.708 --> 00:18:00.309 started a business I ran a freelancing 00:18:00.669 --> 00:18:03.690 agency for a while I like had toyed 00:18:03.709 --> 00:18:05.930 with the idea of like opening an online 00:18:05.970 --> 00:18:08.352 music store at some point and 00:18:10.228 --> 00:18:10.570 You know, 00:18:10.709 --> 00:18:12.270 when you're young and stupid on the 00:18:12.310 --> 00:18:14.251 internet, you think, oh, 00:18:14.291 --> 00:18:15.050 if I build a site, 00:18:15.090 --> 00:18:16.372 then people will come to the site and 00:18:16.392 --> 00:18:18.512 then I can make money with that site. 00:18:19.252 --> 00:18:20.813 But the truth is there's a whole lot 00:18:20.853 --> 00:18:22.674 of work that goes into getting people to 00:18:22.733 --> 00:18:24.254 know that your site exists in the first 00:18:24.315 --> 00:18:26.996 place in order to go and make the 00:18:27.055 --> 00:18:29.256 money that you so dearly hope. 00:18:29.656 --> 00:18:31.816 But like with podcasts, there's like, 00:18:32.338 --> 00:18:34.417 I mean, there are websites, 00:18:34.438 --> 00:18:36.199 there are places like 00:18:36.478 --> 00:18:40.360 Apple Podcasts and Spotify and, you know, 00:18:40.380 --> 00:18:41.120 what is it, 00:18:41.281 --> 00:18:43.301 iHeart and all sorts of other places that 00:18:43.321 --> 00:18:44.342 are just asking, 00:18:44.562 --> 00:18:47.023 please give us your give us your RSS 00:18:47.043 --> 00:18:47.283 feed. 00:18:47.503 --> 00:18:49.105 We will we will syndicate it on our 00:18:49.145 --> 00:18:51.166 network and you will and expose you to 00:18:51.245 --> 00:18:52.566 anybody who's listening over here. 00:18:52.586 --> 00:18:52.985 Right. 00:18:53.306 --> 00:18:54.827 And just like asking for you to like, 00:18:55.006 --> 00:18:56.308 please give us the things. 00:18:56.748 --> 00:18:59.329 And like, it's it's so rare now. 00:18:59.368 --> 00:18:59.529 I mean, 00:18:59.628 --> 00:19:00.929 once upon a time you did that with 00:19:00.970 --> 00:19:01.470 like, you know, 00:19:01.589 --> 00:19:03.291 I would submit my link to, you know, 00:19:03.310 --> 00:19:04.090 the search engines. 00:19:04.110 --> 00:19:05.811 Anybody does that anymore. 00:19:06.591 --> 00:19:07.973 But yeah, like there was once a point, 00:19:08.213 --> 00:19:09.393 once upon a time when you would do 00:19:09.413 --> 00:19:09.653 that. 00:19:09.772 --> 00:19:13.234 And that sort of is still like it 00:19:13.274 --> 00:19:16.235 still happens now through through 00:19:16.255 --> 00:19:16.715 podcasts. 00:19:16.735 --> 00:19:18.637 But like it actually like it opens your 00:19:18.756 --> 00:19:23.118 your there's just a possibility of of your 00:19:23.279 --> 00:19:23.799 podcast. 00:19:24.833 --> 00:19:25.813 your podcast, your, 00:19:25.833 --> 00:19:27.855 your feed going places, uh, 00:19:28.274 --> 00:19:30.275 and being in sitting in these other places 00:19:30.316 --> 00:19:32.656 where people are so that they can find 00:19:32.696 --> 00:19:34.258 it more easily, uh, 00:19:34.338 --> 00:19:36.198 or like give them flexibility in terms of 00:19:36.239 --> 00:19:37.458 the delivery mechanism that they're 00:19:37.479 --> 00:19:38.260 consuming it with. 00:19:38.320 --> 00:19:38.540 Right. 00:19:38.560 --> 00:19:39.820 Like if, you know, if you want to, 00:19:39.859 --> 00:19:40.599 if you want to listen to, 00:19:40.660 --> 00:19:42.400 to my podcast on Spotify, 00:19:42.781 --> 00:19:43.902 go listen to it on Spotify. 00:19:43.942 --> 00:19:45.483 If you want to use Apple podcasts, 00:19:45.782 --> 00:19:46.322 go use that. 00:19:46.342 --> 00:19:47.203 If you want to use something else, 00:19:47.243 --> 00:19:49.063 go use that other thing or, you know, 00:19:49.343 --> 00:19:49.723 whatever. 00:19:49.763 --> 00:19:51.365 Like I still have an RSS feed too. 00:19:51.464 --> 00:19:52.704 Like, you know, you can choose, 00:19:52.826 --> 00:19:53.846 choose your own adventure. 00:19:54.495 --> 00:19:56.837 yeah so one of the nice things in 00:19:57.016 --> 00:19:59.877 most podcast apps which is kind of obvious 00:19:59.916 --> 00:20:01.697 but also i think gets overlooked a little 00:20:01.737 --> 00:20:04.558 bit is that when you um when you 00:20:04.637 --> 00:20:06.539 follow let's use that word that seems to 00:20:06.579 --> 00:20:09.198 be the we've gone from subscribe to follow 00:20:09.579 --> 00:20:12.020 it would would appear so when you follow 00:20:12.460 --> 00:20:14.300 a particular podcast so let's say for 00:20:14.320 --> 00:20:16.721 example oh i don't know i i listen 00:20:16.781 --> 00:20:18.801 to a um a history podcast it's called 00:20:18.861 --> 00:20:20.101 in our time it's by the bbc 00:20:20.781 --> 00:20:22.523 So I stumbled across it because it was 00:20:22.543 --> 00:20:24.304 on the radio and I noticed that they 00:20:24.325 --> 00:20:24.925 did a podcast. 00:20:24.945 --> 00:20:25.745 So I thought, okay, well, 00:20:26.166 --> 00:20:27.107 I'd like to do that. 00:20:27.127 --> 00:20:28.147 So I searched for it. 00:20:28.167 --> 00:20:30.270 I started to type in in hour and 00:20:30.310 --> 00:20:30.889 it came up. 00:20:31.610 --> 00:20:32.811 It was one of the top searches. 00:20:33.252 --> 00:20:34.112 So I clicked on it. 00:20:34.553 --> 00:20:36.835 And then all the previous episodes come in 00:20:36.875 --> 00:20:38.996 this really uncluttered interface. 00:20:39.498 --> 00:20:41.638 There's very little apart from the title 00:20:42.060 --> 00:20:44.041 and maybe the first couple of words, 00:20:44.242 --> 00:20:46.282 like a description or the name of the 00:20:46.463 --> 00:20:47.003 podcast. 00:20:47.023 --> 00:20:49.086 So it's really a mess free environment. 00:20:49.666 --> 00:20:52.787 But then you click a button and basically 00:20:52.807 --> 00:20:54.407 what you're doing is telling the app the 00:20:54.508 --> 00:20:56.569 next time you're on anywhere near the 00:20:56.628 --> 00:20:57.148 Internet, 00:20:57.608 --> 00:20:59.589 just go out and if there's any new 00:20:59.649 --> 00:21:01.991 episodes, just download them right away. 00:21:02.130 --> 00:21:03.191 Now, you don't have to do that. 00:21:03.231 --> 00:21:04.972 You can just be aware that a new 00:21:05.031 --> 00:21:06.873 episode is dropped and your phone's memory 00:21:06.913 --> 00:21:07.552 won't be used. 00:21:07.953 --> 00:21:09.114 But in most cases, 00:21:09.154 --> 00:21:10.214 the ones that I really like, 00:21:10.794 --> 00:21:13.034 I just tick that additional box and then 00:21:13.075 --> 00:21:14.336 the episodes drop. 00:21:14.495 --> 00:21:18.097 Without me doing anything on my phone. 00:21:18.137 --> 00:21:19.637 So that means that when I get in 00:21:19.677 --> 00:21:21.578 the car and I'm driving and I'm nowhere 00:21:21.618 --> 00:21:23.479 near a signal or anything like that, 00:21:23.878 --> 00:21:24.499 it's there. 00:21:24.539 --> 00:21:26.359 It's like preloaded, ready to go. 00:21:26.599 --> 00:21:28.501 Now, you can't do that with a website. 00:21:28.560 --> 00:21:29.160 With a website, 00:21:29.241 --> 00:21:30.900 you have to intentionally go. 00:21:31.281 --> 00:21:33.081 You have to be available for that. 00:21:33.141 --> 00:21:34.041 There's no pre. 00:21:34.141 --> 00:21:35.723 I mean, maybe I remember you. 00:21:36.502 --> 00:21:38.003 There is probably a way to do that, 00:21:38.023 --> 00:21:39.524 but nobody's doing that. 00:21:39.886 --> 00:21:41.827 But that's kind of the point with a 00:21:41.867 --> 00:21:42.347 podcast. 00:21:42.367 --> 00:21:42.588 You know, 00:21:42.608 --> 00:21:44.769 you get to the point where your audience 00:21:44.789 --> 00:21:45.310 trusts you. 00:21:45.349 --> 00:21:47.310 They like your content enough to go that 00:21:47.431 --> 00:21:49.031 extra step, click that button. 00:21:49.532 --> 00:21:51.894 Every episode gets downloaded and then 00:21:52.114 --> 00:21:52.774 you're ready to go. 00:21:52.835 --> 00:21:54.656 And it's just wonderful that that's 00:21:54.695 --> 00:21:55.136 available. 00:21:55.176 --> 00:21:56.598 So I've probably got about, I don't know, 00:21:56.637 --> 00:21:58.378 ten or fifteen that each week I share. 00:21:59.599 --> 00:22:01.360 I might listen to a handful of them. 00:22:01.761 --> 00:22:03.402 And then after a certain amount of time, 00:22:03.762 --> 00:22:05.283 you know, when the next episode drops, 00:22:05.323 --> 00:22:06.585 the one on the bottom of the list 00:22:06.605 --> 00:22:07.365 will drop off. 00:22:07.665 --> 00:22:09.367 I set it for typically like five or 00:22:09.406 --> 00:22:10.788 ten episodes, something like that. 00:22:10.808 --> 00:22:12.208 And new episode drops, 00:22:12.309 --> 00:22:14.490 episode drops off the bottom and what have 00:22:14.510 --> 00:22:14.589 you. 00:22:15.031 --> 00:22:18.332 But also just what is available is insane. 00:22:18.512 --> 00:22:18.773 Yes. 00:22:18.914 --> 00:22:20.655 So you know that everybody says there's a 00:22:20.675 --> 00:22:21.856 video for that on YouTube. 00:22:21.876 --> 00:22:23.597 Well, there's a podcast for that. 00:22:24.256 --> 00:22:26.019 I guarantee it doesn't matter what you're 00:22:26.059 --> 00:22:26.418 into. 00:22:26.519 --> 00:22:27.240 There is some... 00:22:27.839 --> 00:22:29.620 there is somebody out there who's made 00:22:29.900 --> 00:22:32.541 impeccable content about the very thing 00:22:32.560 --> 00:22:35.522 that you're into it's utterly remarkable 00:22:36.002 --> 00:22:38.562 yeah yeah for sure uh i listen to 00:22:38.683 --> 00:22:42.925 a lot of uh tabletop role-playing game 00:22:43.085 --> 00:22:45.145 actual oh right that's your thing okay 00:22:45.165 --> 00:22:47.626 yeah yeah so i like so i i 00:22:47.725 --> 00:22:49.766 i consume like things like critical role 00:22:49.787 --> 00:22:51.647 in their video stream but i consume it 00:22:51.746 --> 00:22:53.568 like mostly like as i'm doing things as 00:22:53.588 --> 00:22:54.947 a podcast and then sometimes i look at 00:22:54.987 --> 00:22:56.229 the screen but mostly i'm just listening 00:22:56.269 --> 00:22:56.948 to it in my headphones 00:22:58.129 --> 00:22:59.412 Does that work on audio, though, 00:22:59.772 --> 00:23:00.773 for that particular niche? 00:23:00.793 --> 00:23:02.656 Or do you find halfway through an episode, 00:23:02.675 --> 00:23:03.397 you're like, dang, 00:23:03.436 --> 00:23:06.160 and then pause and go to the video 00:23:06.320 --> 00:23:08.022 because there's something you need to see? 00:23:09.164 --> 00:23:11.506 Most of the time, the audio is fine. 00:23:12.569 --> 00:23:14.590 In fact, the only reason why... 00:23:15.974 --> 00:23:21.579 video is important in that medium, 00:23:22.300 --> 00:23:23.320 for me anyway. 00:23:23.380 --> 00:23:24.360 There's sort of two things. 00:23:24.660 --> 00:23:26.562 One is they do the big reveal of 00:23:28.083 --> 00:23:29.425 the set piece that they're going to have, 00:23:29.585 --> 00:23:30.705 the battle map that they bring out, 00:23:30.725 --> 00:23:32.107 and it's all like, 00:23:32.147 --> 00:23:33.048 they build out this thing, 00:23:33.068 --> 00:23:34.608 and obviously you have to, yeah. 00:23:34.868 --> 00:23:37.350 And so you hear everybody reacting to this 00:23:37.390 --> 00:23:37.910 thing, like, oh, 00:23:38.011 --> 00:23:39.993 I want to see that thing, right? 00:23:40.292 --> 00:23:43.714 But the other reason why I like video 00:23:44.758 --> 00:23:47.400 on occasion is, I mean, 00:23:47.461 --> 00:23:49.022 Critical Role is trained, 00:23:49.081 --> 00:23:51.385 like trained professional actors, right? 00:23:51.484 --> 00:23:54.047 Like that's who the cast of the show 00:23:54.127 --> 00:23:54.307 is. 00:23:54.848 --> 00:23:55.088 And 00:23:56.367 --> 00:23:56.547 I mean, 00:23:57.087 --> 00:23:58.808 they're fully acting their part 00:23:59.207 --> 00:24:01.708 improvisationally for three to four hours 00:24:02.269 --> 00:24:02.829 every week. 00:24:02.849 --> 00:24:02.929 Wow. 00:24:03.089 --> 00:24:04.629 Yeah. 00:24:04.710 --> 00:24:07.491 And so sometimes there'll be interactions 00:24:07.531 --> 00:24:09.391 where I really wanted to zoom into this 00:24:09.591 --> 00:24:10.412 one person's, 00:24:10.733 --> 00:24:13.354 this one player's expression to see how 00:24:13.414 --> 00:24:15.655 they are reacting to the story being told. 00:24:16.575 --> 00:24:18.975 Like the way that you would watch a 00:24:19.015 --> 00:24:20.636 movie and see how the characters are 00:24:20.656 --> 00:24:21.057 interacting. 00:24:21.097 --> 00:24:21.996 So that's a thing. 00:24:22.016 --> 00:24:22.956 But for the most part, 00:24:22.996 --> 00:24:24.137 because it's a narrative... 00:24:24.737 --> 00:24:25.917 It's narrative storytelling. 00:24:26.398 --> 00:24:26.519 Like, 00:24:26.539 --> 00:24:28.138 if they weren't doing the set pieces, 00:24:28.319 --> 00:24:29.579 it would just be narrative anyway. 00:24:29.639 --> 00:24:30.780 It would just be theory of the mind, 00:24:30.839 --> 00:24:32.941 and then you wouldn't need any of it, 00:24:32.961 --> 00:24:34.422 which is really cool. 00:24:34.442 --> 00:24:35.982 But where I wanted to go with that 00:24:36.022 --> 00:24:40.283 was there's a couple shows out there that 00:24:40.323 --> 00:24:43.244 are designed for audio consuming. 00:24:43.304 --> 00:24:46.306 So they do a whole bunch of sound 00:24:46.346 --> 00:24:49.166 design and make it more like of a 00:24:49.266 --> 00:24:49.986 radio play. 00:24:51.927 --> 00:24:53.249 And so, like, 00:24:53.289 --> 00:24:55.030 and with different voices and different, 00:24:55.169 --> 00:24:55.590 like, you know, 00:24:55.610 --> 00:24:57.272 maybe different characters playing, like, 00:24:57.492 --> 00:25:00.033 the NPCs, not the actual players, but, 00:25:00.073 --> 00:25:00.813 like, the, you know, 00:25:00.833 --> 00:25:01.794 the non-player characters. 00:25:01.855 --> 00:25:02.014 Yeah. 00:25:02.876 --> 00:25:05.758 And that's a really interesting thing that 00:25:05.778 --> 00:25:06.877 can be really, like, 00:25:06.918 --> 00:25:08.659 it's a different experience because it's a 00:25:08.700 --> 00:25:10.100 lot more like, yeah, 00:25:10.140 --> 00:25:11.702 it's a lot more like the old-fashioned 00:25:11.742 --> 00:25:13.862 radio plays that don't exist anymore that 00:25:13.883 --> 00:25:15.523 probably existed on BBC at one point in 00:25:15.543 --> 00:25:16.125 time, you know? 00:25:16.165 --> 00:25:16.304 Right. 00:25:16.464 --> 00:25:16.905 Yeah. 00:25:16.945 --> 00:25:17.146 Yeah. 00:25:17.826 --> 00:25:19.166 so i i listen to a lot of 00:25:19.206 --> 00:25:21.967 history that's just somehow become part of 00:25:21.987 --> 00:25:23.428 what i like and um and there's quite 00:25:23.448 --> 00:25:24.968 a lot of narrative stuff so you know 00:25:24.989 --> 00:25:26.929 they're describing things but also i like 00:25:26.970 --> 00:25:29.330 to i there's quite a few ones where 00:25:29.350 --> 00:25:31.272 i like to watch as well so there's 00:25:31.391 --> 00:25:33.592 one where they're doing archaeology and 00:25:34.052 --> 00:25:35.833 describing what's being dug up out the 00:25:35.854 --> 00:25:37.454 ground is no substitute for actually 00:25:37.494 --> 00:25:40.396 seeing it yeah but but curiously you know 00:25:40.416 --> 00:25:43.016 the podcasts that i'm involved in making 00:25:43.156 --> 00:25:44.078 are about web 00:25:44.717 --> 00:25:46.118 design and development. 00:25:46.177 --> 00:25:48.319 And it's quite surprising how far you can 00:25:48.358 --> 00:25:49.479 go with just words. 00:25:50.098 --> 00:25:52.280 So if you're trying to describe a design, 00:25:52.520 --> 00:25:54.419 it is sometimes quite hard and you have 00:25:54.460 --> 00:25:56.860 to really lean into, okay, 00:25:56.981 --> 00:26:00.281 I really must bear in mind that hardly 00:26:00.301 --> 00:26:02.381 anybody can imagine what I'm looking at on 00:26:02.402 --> 00:26:02.942 the screen. 00:26:03.362 --> 00:26:05.022 But broadly speaking, it works. 00:26:05.123 --> 00:26:06.822 It doesn't really matter to me too much 00:26:06.883 --> 00:26:07.704 that it's audio. 00:26:08.104 --> 00:26:09.523 But you're definitely right. 00:26:09.543 --> 00:26:11.764 There are some scenarios where the video 00:26:12.185 --> 00:26:12.945 is better 00:26:13.605 --> 00:26:16.465 But I still, I'm sticking to my gums. 00:26:16.545 --> 00:26:17.025 I prefer audio. 00:26:17.045 --> 00:26:19.807 And I just don't think that the audio 00:26:20.406 --> 00:26:21.308 is going away. 00:26:22.108 --> 00:26:24.408 I went to a show over the last 00:26:24.428 --> 00:26:26.408 couple of years in London. 00:26:26.428 --> 00:26:27.629 It's called The Podcast Show. 00:26:27.669 --> 00:26:29.790 And I'm going to say it's one of 00:26:29.810 --> 00:26:31.991 the bigger podcast events in the world. 00:26:32.050 --> 00:26:33.231 I don't actually know if that's true. 00:26:33.251 --> 00:26:34.571 But it's a big event. 00:26:36.261 --> 00:26:38.022 And it was quite surprising how much the 00:26:38.081 --> 00:26:42.244 industry is pushing towards video because 00:26:42.385 --> 00:26:45.147 I think there's money in video 00:26:45.746 --> 00:26:46.446 potentially, I think, 00:26:46.506 --> 00:26:49.468 much more than there is in audio. 00:26:49.990 --> 00:26:51.751 The camera companies get to sell their 00:26:51.910 --> 00:26:53.351 equipment at those events. 00:26:54.252 --> 00:26:56.894 A lot of people like to be on 00:26:56.954 --> 00:26:58.735 YouTube and be visible and that kind of 00:26:58.755 --> 00:26:58.896 thing. 00:26:59.336 --> 00:27:00.797 But there's always this undercurrent in 00:27:00.817 --> 00:27:01.737 the industry of, well, 00:27:01.758 --> 00:27:03.479 the audio is not going anywhere and the 00:27:03.539 --> 00:27:04.879 data points to 00:27:05.540 --> 00:27:07.981 exactly that you know or whilst video is 00:27:08.021 --> 00:27:09.800 on the rise it certainly doesn't seem to 00:27:09.840 --> 00:27:14.081 be cannibalizing uh all of the audios um 00:27:14.101 --> 00:27:17.262 market share if you like so yeah yeah 00:27:17.601 --> 00:27:19.623 yeah well and it's in and to your 00:27:19.743 --> 00:27:23.322 to your sort of origin story um about 00:27:23.443 --> 00:27:25.604 just having talk radio like one of the 00:27:25.624 --> 00:27:27.664 things that that you know I've been 00:27:27.684 --> 00:27:29.564 thinking about as we're as we've been 00:27:29.605 --> 00:27:31.325 talking is is the way that like it's 00:27:31.385 --> 00:27:31.564 it's 00:27:32.339 --> 00:27:33.600 it's on demand, right? 00:27:33.640 --> 00:27:36.282 Like your podcast, you were like, 00:27:36.703 --> 00:27:37.983 it downloads stuff in the background, 00:27:38.023 --> 00:27:39.425 but it's there for you when you want 00:27:39.445 --> 00:27:40.204 to click play. 00:27:40.525 --> 00:27:41.326 Whereas if, 00:27:41.545 --> 00:27:45.569 if you were just consuming audio via the 00:27:45.648 --> 00:27:47.570 radio or even, you know, 00:27:47.650 --> 00:27:48.870 old fashioned television, 00:27:49.192 --> 00:27:51.153 nobody does not think things that aren't 00:27:51.233 --> 00:27:52.434 on demand anymore on TV. 00:27:52.473 --> 00:27:54.935 But, but if you were still doing that, 00:27:54.995 --> 00:27:55.836 you had to like, you know, 00:27:56.256 --> 00:27:57.737 have your butt in a particular, 00:27:57.818 --> 00:27:58.318 in your seat, 00:27:58.639 --> 00:28:01.100 at a particular time every night to listen 00:28:01.120 --> 00:28:02.201 to this particular thing. 00:28:03.080 --> 00:28:06.081 But you don't have to do that. 00:28:07.002 --> 00:28:10.543 That's one of the great things about 00:28:11.864 --> 00:28:14.425 podcasting is it's low cost to make. 00:28:14.484 --> 00:28:15.764 It's low cost to consume. 00:28:16.264 --> 00:28:19.146 It doesn't require very much effort to 00:28:19.185 --> 00:28:20.146 consume or make. 00:28:20.346 --> 00:28:22.347 It's just really easy. 00:28:22.567 --> 00:28:24.229 Yeah, I mean, if you're watching a video, 00:28:24.269 --> 00:28:28.051 you've committed your entire body to it 00:28:28.071 --> 00:28:30.694 because the minute your head is no longer 00:28:31.033 --> 00:28:32.535 right in front of the box that you're 00:28:32.576 --> 00:28:34.557 watching it on, it doesn't work anymore. 00:28:34.798 --> 00:28:35.999 You can't walk around the back of the 00:28:36.059 --> 00:28:37.619 telly and still be enjoying it or the 00:28:37.659 --> 00:28:39.021 back of the monitor or wherever you're 00:28:39.041 --> 00:28:39.541 consuming it. 00:28:40.061 --> 00:28:42.403 but the audio all right yes you could 00:28:42.443 --> 00:28:44.042 but you're gonna have a traffic accident 00:28:44.062 --> 00:28:46.343 or you know something you know fall over 00:28:46.384 --> 00:28:48.064 a curb and get yourself seriously hurt 00:28:48.085 --> 00:28:49.365 because you're watching your phone at the 00:28:49.405 --> 00:28:51.545 same time but audio doesn't it just 00:28:51.606 --> 00:28:53.106 genuinely doesn't work that way you know 00:28:53.126 --> 00:28:55.307 you just just put pop the headphones on 00:28:55.347 --> 00:28:58.028 and they're very cheap nowadays as well 00:28:58.048 --> 00:28:58.268 yeah 00:28:58.707 --> 00:28:59.749 And you're off to the races. 00:28:59.789 --> 00:29:01.309 And I don't know if you were a 00:29:01.530 --> 00:29:02.450 reader as a kid, 00:29:02.510 --> 00:29:04.291 but you know that thing where you've read 00:29:04.350 --> 00:29:05.752 a book and then you go and watch 00:29:05.791 --> 00:29:07.792 the film and inevitably the film is a 00:29:07.852 --> 00:29:10.414 disappointment because the book allowed 00:29:10.513 --> 00:29:13.495 you to your mind went off and created, 00:29:13.935 --> 00:29:14.255 I don't know, 00:29:14.316 --> 00:29:16.877 Gandalf and Frodo and the whole of Middle 00:29:16.936 --> 00:29:19.698 Earth in the way that best suited your 00:29:19.739 --> 00:29:20.098 brain. 00:29:20.198 --> 00:29:22.359 And then you see Peter Jackson's version 00:29:22.399 --> 00:29:22.520 of it. 00:29:22.540 --> 00:29:23.701 You're like, no, 00:29:23.761 --> 00:29:26.002 that's not what it's supposed to be like. 00:29:26.422 --> 00:29:27.663 Actually, he did a pretty good job, 00:29:27.703 --> 00:29:28.783 so I take that back. 00:29:28.823 --> 00:29:29.825 Peter Jackson, I'm sorry. 00:29:30.125 --> 00:29:31.025 Well, there are definitely parts of that. 00:29:31.106 --> 00:29:33.348 Yeah, there's definitely parts. 00:29:34.269 --> 00:29:35.490 I'm glad you agree. 00:29:36.590 --> 00:29:38.792 But you conjure it up in your mind, 00:29:39.252 --> 00:29:41.975 and there's just something there. 00:29:42.015 --> 00:29:43.256 There is a there there. 00:29:43.277 --> 00:29:44.737 There is something wonderful about the 00:29:44.758 --> 00:29:46.439 fact that your imagination is allowed to 00:29:46.939 --> 00:29:47.721 run riot. 00:29:47.781 --> 00:29:49.842 So if you're listening to a true crime 00:29:50.663 --> 00:29:51.984 podcast, and by the way, there are... 00:29:52.645 --> 00:29:56.106 That's pretty much the biggest category of 00:29:56.166 --> 00:29:57.807 podcasting is true crime. 00:29:57.847 --> 00:29:58.147 You know, 00:29:58.287 --> 00:30:00.347 you've seen all those police shows on TV. 00:30:00.387 --> 00:30:03.348 Well, they're on podcasting episodes. 00:30:03.368 --> 00:30:04.329 You can go and enjoy those. 00:30:04.749 --> 00:30:06.108 You know, you really get to imagine it. 00:30:06.249 --> 00:30:08.270 And if the storytelling is done well, 00:30:08.369 --> 00:30:09.730 you are totally immersed. 00:30:09.909 --> 00:30:11.451 It's you know, 00:30:11.471 --> 00:30:12.771 but you do the vacuuming at the same 00:30:12.810 --> 00:30:13.050 time. 00:30:13.191 --> 00:30:15.351 So you're not getting told off for being 00:30:15.391 --> 00:30:15.712 lazy. 00:30:17.447 --> 00:30:17.647 Now, 00:30:18.088 --> 00:30:21.089 you posted something on LinkedIn recently 00:30:21.149 --> 00:30:24.370 that I thought was interesting, which was, 00:30:25.272 --> 00:30:25.652 you said, 00:30:25.851 --> 00:30:27.852 is it me or has AI just figured 00:30:27.913 --> 00:30:29.533 out how to build macOS apps? 00:30:29.573 --> 00:30:31.034 This is sort of a total left-field 00:30:31.054 --> 00:30:32.575 tangent, but it's really interesting. 00:30:32.995 --> 00:30:35.557 I'm seeing so many clearly vibe-coded apps 00:30:35.597 --> 00:30:36.317 being unleashed. 00:30:36.416 --> 00:30:38.417 Some are so interesting and do one tiny 00:30:38.437 --> 00:30:39.698 thing and cost a few bucks. 00:30:41.147 --> 00:30:41.809 Tell me about that. 00:30:42.731 --> 00:30:46.258 What sorts of things are you finding that 00:30:47.240 --> 00:30:49.945 are clearly vibe-coded but also happen to 00:30:49.964 --> 00:30:50.485 be useful? 00:30:51.025 --> 00:30:53.588 Okay, so there's a whole thing here. 00:30:54.127 --> 00:30:56.290 I've been recently on the lookout for an 00:30:56.349 --> 00:31:00.772 app to make credible product promotional 00:31:00.792 --> 00:31:01.292 videos. 00:31:01.332 --> 00:31:02.654 So you know the kind of thing like 00:31:02.674 --> 00:31:03.875 you zoom in on a screenshot. 00:31:03.915 --> 00:31:04.635 So it's for an app. 00:31:05.035 --> 00:31:05.795 You zoom in, 00:31:05.935 --> 00:31:08.137 you demonstrate the bit of the app and 00:31:08.217 --> 00:31:09.799 it kind of pans in and it all 00:31:09.819 --> 00:31:11.159 looks wonderful and yada yada. 00:31:11.859 --> 00:31:13.881 So I had an app sitting in the 00:31:13.902 --> 00:31:15.143 back pocket, but I thought, you know, 00:31:15.223 --> 00:31:16.583 it's been a year since I've used this 00:31:16.684 --> 00:31:16.864 app. 00:31:16.905 --> 00:31:17.964 Let me go and explore. 00:31:18.066 --> 00:31:19.647 And I know for a fact that a 00:31:19.686 --> 00:31:21.167 year ago when I was exploring, 00:31:21.187 --> 00:31:22.549 there was one or two, 00:31:22.689 --> 00:31:25.172 maybe three that everybody talked about. 00:31:25.772 --> 00:31:28.554 And so this was about a month ago. 00:31:28.635 --> 00:31:29.415 I started to look. 00:31:30.035 --> 00:31:30.215 Oh, 00:31:30.777 --> 00:31:33.718 there's like forty that have launched in 00:31:33.759 --> 00:31:34.520 the last month. 00:31:35.990 --> 00:31:38.993 Seriously, Chris, like six weeks, 00:31:39.473 --> 00:31:40.174 something like that. 00:31:40.854 --> 00:31:43.096 And they're all doing the same thing. 00:31:43.435 --> 00:31:45.137 They've got a slightly different UI. 00:31:45.457 --> 00:31:48.300 But what's cute, the tell is the website. 00:31:48.721 --> 00:31:51.723 So the website is almost identical for all 00:31:51.762 --> 00:31:52.483 of these products. 00:31:52.523 --> 00:31:54.325 It's got the same menu at the top 00:31:54.365 --> 00:31:55.725 and it's got that, you know, 00:31:55.766 --> 00:31:58.229 that AI vibe coded website to it. 00:31:58.269 --> 00:31:59.629 But the app clearly isn't. 00:32:00.109 --> 00:32:02.811 But it's also pretty obvious given, 00:32:03.213 --> 00:32:04.114 you know, you do a little bit, 00:32:04.134 --> 00:32:05.155 I don't know if you're like me, 00:32:05.195 --> 00:32:06.856 but when I see an app and I 00:32:06.916 --> 00:32:08.357 want to know who the developers are, 00:32:08.838 --> 00:32:10.239 I want to know what their backstory is. 00:32:10.398 --> 00:32:11.781 And you go and you look at their 00:32:11.820 --> 00:32:13.301 Twitter feed and you can see, okay, 00:32:13.321 --> 00:32:16.445 this is clearly brand new to them because 00:32:16.484 --> 00:32:18.926 they've not been, you know, 00:32:18.966 --> 00:32:21.089 they've promoted nothing about Mac apps in 00:32:21.108 --> 00:32:22.050 the more recent past. 00:32:22.570 --> 00:32:26.072 So, but the staggering thing is, 00:32:26.993 --> 00:32:28.475 They are already, 00:32:28.556 --> 00:32:30.798 these vibe coded apps are already 00:32:30.917 --> 00:32:34.541 significantly better than the one which a 00:32:34.600 --> 00:32:37.002 year ago I thought was amazing, 00:32:37.144 --> 00:32:39.024 which took years and years and years of 00:32:39.064 --> 00:32:40.146 hard work to build up. 00:32:40.986 --> 00:32:43.990 And so I know it's vibe coded in 00:32:44.010 --> 00:32:45.310 the case of the one that I actually 00:32:45.350 --> 00:32:46.831 jumped on because I contacted the 00:32:46.851 --> 00:32:47.493 developer and I said, 00:32:47.512 --> 00:32:48.233 just tell me about it. 00:32:48.253 --> 00:32:49.234 He said, yeah, vibe coded. 00:32:49.774 --> 00:32:51.877 but i'm happy i get the video out 00:32:51.916 --> 00:32:54.138 the other end it's on my local machine 00:32:54.418 --> 00:32:56.300 you know i've done some fair little bit 00:32:56.320 --> 00:32:57.682 of due diligence to make sure it's not 00:32:57.722 --> 00:33:00.283 doing anything nefarious and and that was 00:33:00.404 --> 00:33:02.425 one thing and then i that kind of 00:33:02.445 --> 00:33:03.587 sent me off in all sorts of different 00:33:03.627 --> 00:33:06.490 directions so the the same developer 00:33:07.409 --> 00:33:10.090 of the screen sharing app that I've got, 00:33:10.531 --> 00:33:12.232 he came up with this idea of, 00:33:12.572 --> 00:33:15.333 you know, so I'm staring at my MacBook, 00:33:15.394 --> 00:33:16.595 you know, on the MacBook, 00:33:16.635 --> 00:33:18.816 you've got the trackpad. 00:33:19.275 --> 00:33:21.297 And then on either side of the trackpad, 00:33:21.337 --> 00:33:24.477 you've got like a bit of metal, 00:33:24.637 --> 00:33:26.799 which is neither keyboard nor trackpad. 00:33:26.839 --> 00:33:28.379 It's about the size of a palm of 00:33:28.399 --> 00:33:28.899 your hand. 00:33:29.521 --> 00:33:30.900 Well, he thought to himself, 00:33:31.682 --> 00:33:33.462 can we do anything with that bit of 00:33:33.562 --> 00:33:33.883 metal? 00:33:35.164 --> 00:33:36.023 And you're thinking, well, 00:33:36.063 --> 00:33:36.784 what can you do with that? 00:33:36.804 --> 00:33:38.627 It's where your stickers go. 00:33:38.706 --> 00:33:38.926 Right. 00:33:39.288 --> 00:33:41.710 He's figured out that if you use, 00:33:42.691 --> 00:33:44.572 I'm guessing it's an accelerometer, 00:33:44.592 --> 00:33:45.553 because I haven't actually asked him, 00:33:45.573 --> 00:33:46.514 and I don't know how it works. 00:33:47.936 --> 00:33:50.039 You can tap that bit of metal. 00:33:50.539 --> 00:33:52.942 The Mac knows that you've hit the metal 00:33:52.962 --> 00:33:54.223 on the right-hand side, 00:33:54.703 --> 00:33:56.625 and then you can trigger things to happen. 00:33:57.386 --> 00:33:59.227 And so he's launched an app which if 00:33:59.248 --> 00:34:02.149 you tap the right hand side twice, 00:34:02.590 --> 00:34:03.432 a thing happens. 00:34:03.531 --> 00:34:04.873 If you tap it three times, 00:34:05.133 --> 00:34:06.013 a thing happens. 00:34:06.114 --> 00:34:07.474 And if you tap it four times, 00:34:07.774 --> 00:34:08.316 a thing happens. 00:34:08.396 --> 00:34:09.716 And it's the same on the left. 00:34:10.037 --> 00:34:11.378 And if you tap them both at the 00:34:11.418 --> 00:34:12.879 same time, a thing happens. 00:34:13.320 --> 00:34:15.202 And it's just like there's no interface 00:34:15.222 --> 00:34:15.502 there. 00:34:15.541 --> 00:34:17.624 But he's figured out a way to make 00:34:17.644 --> 00:34:19.566 an interface where there's literally 00:34:19.626 --> 00:34:19.965 metal. 00:34:21.127 --> 00:34:22.908 And I just thought, that's genius, 00:34:23.210 --> 00:34:24.170 absolute genius. 00:34:24.310 --> 00:34:25.893 And he's clearly not, you know, 00:34:26.213 --> 00:34:28.596 not able to do it prior to, 00:34:29.255 --> 00:34:30.297 I don't know, you know, 00:34:30.518 --> 00:34:33.040 maybe February's version of chat GPT or 00:34:33.261 --> 00:34:35.423 Anthropix version or whatever he's using. 00:34:35.463 --> 00:34:35.904 I don't know. 00:34:35.983 --> 00:34:36.204 Yeah. 00:34:36.424 --> 00:34:37.704 But it's just this dearth. 00:34:37.804 --> 00:34:39.205 And there's loads of them like that. 00:34:39.425 --> 00:34:41.627 Absolutely loads of Mac apps. 00:34:41.887 --> 00:34:45.549 So my thought was something just dropped. 00:34:45.628 --> 00:34:49.431 Some capability inside of Mac OS got 00:34:49.491 --> 00:34:52.453 exposed to the point where now you can 00:34:52.493 --> 00:34:53.214 basically say, 00:34:53.634 --> 00:34:55.554 build me a Mac app which does this 00:34:56.294 --> 00:34:57.116 and it will do it. 00:34:57.376 --> 00:34:58.716 And I think that's pretty incredible. 00:34:59.684 --> 00:35:01.385 caveat emptor don't just go buying them 00:35:01.405 --> 00:35:03.567 all by the way oh that's the other 00:35:03.607 --> 00:35:05.368 thing it drives the cost down because they 00:35:05.407 --> 00:35:07.428 were like five or six dollars you know 00:35:07.448 --> 00:35:11.232 these apps are nothing yeah the the the 00:35:11.512 --> 00:35:13.713 tapping the metal part on either side of 00:35:13.752 --> 00:35:16.754 the uh the trackpad is interesting because 00:35:16.774 --> 00:35:19.196 didn't it I I feel like I feel 00:35:19.216 --> 00:35:22.960 like in in in the world that I 00:35:23.020 --> 00:35:25.001 come from as a developer 00:35:26.099 --> 00:35:28.620 In order for me to know that that 00:35:28.660 --> 00:35:30.121 is an app that could be built, 00:35:30.703 --> 00:35:32.042 I would first need to know that there's 00:35:32.062 --> 00:35:34.504 an accelerometer inside the machine. 00:35:34.544 --> 00:35:34.744 Right. 00:35:35.125 --> 00:35:36.165 That's what I assumed. 00:35:36.485 --> 00:35:39.047 Which means that either I'm an Apple 00:35:39.147 --> 00:35:42.009 insider or I'm going to WWDC and they 00:35:42.049 --> 00:35:42.968 say something about it. 00:35:43.269 --> 00:35:44.849 Because it's not an obvious, like, 00:35:44.969 --> 00:35:47.471 why would my app have an accelerometer 00:35:47.532 --> 00:35:47.772 inside? 00:35:47.791 --> 00:35:47.851 Why? 00:35:47.891 --> 00:35:48.172 Why? 00:35:48.552 --> 00:35:50.214 There's no reason for it. 00:35:50.313 --> 00:35:51.355 There literally is not. 00:35:51.415 --> 00:35:54.239 I mean, GPS, I guess, maybe. 00:35:54.558 --> 00:35:54.918 I don't know. 00:35:55.279 --> 00:35:56.061 I don't understand these things. 00:35:57.322 --> 00:35:58.302 But, yeah, 00:35:58.342 --> 00:35:59.685 so you have to first know that it's 00:35:59.724 --> 00:36:02.128 there and then also after that know how 00:36:02.148 --> 00:36:02.947 to interact with it. 00:36:03.148 --> 00:36:03.389 Right. 00:36:03.828 --> 00:36:07.610 Which is a deep level of understanding the 00:36:07.650 --> 00:36:08.891 macOS operating system. 00:36:08.971 --> 00:36:11.570 And that's like macOS quirks. 00:36:12.112 --> 00:36:14.491 It's built on top of BSD, 00:36:14.532 --> 00:36:15.813 so you could kind of get away with 00:36:16.072 --> 00:36:18.353 understanding Linux and BSD. 00:36:18.672 --> 00:36:20.034 But that's like the mac... 00:36:20.574 --> 00:36:22.395 idiosyncrasies to have like this 00:36:22.415 --> 00:36:24.538 particular piece of hardware that reacts 00:36:24.558 --> 00:36:25.317 in this particular way. 00:36:25.357 --> 00:36:25.719 Right. 00:36:25.958 --> 00:36:28.300 So if those idiosyncrasies are now being 00:36:28.900 --> 00:36:31.003 inspected and understood by AI, 00:36:31.063 --> 00:36:33.686 presumably it's available to anybody just 00:36:33.726 --> 00:36:34.346 questioning. 00:36:35.047 --> 00:36:36.007 I was kind of curious, like, 00:36:36.047 --> 00:36:37.389 does it need to be on a squishy 00:36:37.449 --> 00:36:37.949 surface? 00:36:37.989 --> 00:36:39.511 You know, like if it's on my lap. 00:36:40.070 --> 00:36:40.851 And I tap it. 00:36:41.371 --> 00:36:43.192 Presumably the Mac is going to just pivot 00:36:43.272 --> 00:36:45.253 a wobble, maybe a couple of millimeters, 00:36:45.293 --> 00:36:46.632 whereas if it's on a desk and I 00:36:46.692 --> 00:36:46.993 do it. 00:36:47.512 --> 00:36:49.494 But I haven't bought that one, 00:36:49.534 --> 00:36:51.454 but it appears that it works on a 00:36:51.494 --> 00:36:51.775 desk. 00:36:53.275 --> 00:36:56.355 But I'm just thinking that curious minds 00:36:56.576 --> 00:36:59.197 over the next year or two years will 00:36:59.217 --> 00:37:00.596 just come up with an idea like, oh, 00:37:00.737 --> 00:37:02.137 could it do that? 00:37:02.797 --> 00:37:05.099 and you just ask and if the answer 00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:07.239 is yeah okay now build it and that 00:37:07.299 --> 00:37:09.741 seems to be the bit which is that's 00:37:09.822 --> 00:37:12.043 the bit which i think has happened very 00:37:12.103 --> 00:37:15.605 recently is this kind of confidence among 00:37:16.284 --> 00:37:18.987 non-developers to just put this stuff out 00:37:19.007 --> 00:37:21.328 there and and just do the one-shot build 00:37:21.368 --> 00:37:24.349 and see if they can prize people's wallets 00:37:24.429 --> 00:37:26.951 open for five dollars because of this one 00:37:26.991 --> 00:37:28.311 little thing that they've got and 00:37:29.112 --> 00:37:30.355 I don't know if that's the future or 00:37:30.415 --> 00:37:30.634 not. 00:37:30.715 --> 00:37:32.998 I'm not sure if that's a great use 00:37:33.038 --> 00:37:34.362 of everybody's dollars, 00:37:34.422 --> 00:37:36.326 but it certainly seems interesting. 00:37:38.215 --> 00:37:40.397 Well, somewhat tangential to that, 00:37:40.837 --> 00:37:41.777 related to that, 00:37:43.038 --> 00:37:47.221 you yourself have been working on a 00:37:47.241 --> 00:37:49.241 podcasting app of sorts. 00:37:50.163 --> 00:37:51.362 And I know we were talking about it 00:37:51.382 --> 00:37:52.523 before we started recording and it's not 00:37:52.563 --> 00:37:56.105 quite ready for the real world quite yet. 00:37:57.087 --> 00:37:58.688 But talk about that. 00:37:59.228 --> 00:38:00.708 I mean, obviously, 00:38:01.148 --> 00:38:04.110 you've been doing this thing long enough 00:38:04.170 --> 00:38:06.632 to know, like, what... 00:38:09.058 --> 00:38:10.980 workflows work best for you, 00:38:11.659 --> 00:38:13.741 how scheduling works, how recording works, 00:38:14.022 --> 00:38:16.944 how taking notes and building show 00:38:17.005 --> 00:38:19.286 summaries and transcripts and all that 00:38:19.326 --> 00:38:20.107 sort of stuff. 00:38:21.429 --> 00:38:23.531 You're obviously familiar with that stuff 00:38:23.550 --> 00:38:24.612 because you've been doing this for so 00:38:24.652 --> 00:38:24.951 long, 00:38:26.313 --> 00:38:28.775 but it's a different thing to turn that 00:38:30.516 --> 00:38:33.558 knowledge and expertise into something 00:38:33.639 --> 00:38:36.201 that is then going to do that thing. 00:38:36.942 --> 00:38:39.663 yeah other people so i guess it doesn't 00:38:39.683 --> 00:38:41.204 matter what line of work you're in if 00:38:41.224 --> 00:38:42.726 you've been doing it for any length of 00:38:42.786 --> 00:38:45.987 time you're sure to discover that there's 00:38:46.288 --> 00:38:48.369 better ways to do almost everything that 00:38:48.409 --> 00:38:50.829 you're doing and so whilst previously we 00:38:50.849 --> 00:38:52.250 were saying the impediment to getting 00:38:52.290 --> 00:38:54.853 started in podcasting is almost zero 00:38:55.353 --> 00:38:58.415 that's true but in the background 00:38:59.074 --> 00:39:01.616 so here's a perfect example right so the 00:39:01.636 --> 00:39:03.177 podcast that you and i are both doing 00:39:03.337 --> 00:39:05.478 where we're using a piece of software 00:39:05.538 --> 00:39:08.400 which has a subscription it will enable 00:39:08.579 --> 00:39:10.480 the video to get sucked out and the 00:39:10.561 --> 00:39:12.041 audio to get sucked out but then you've 00:39:12.061 --> 00:39:13.902 got to do something with that audio and 00:39:13.922 --> 00:39:16.464 video and edit it and presumably add a 00:39:16.503 --> 00:39:18.085 little bit of music at the beginning and 00:39:18.724 --> 00:39:20.525 and you know in many cases you may 00:39:20.565 --> 00:39:22.346 wish to share show notes because you've 00:39:22.366 --> 00:39:24.288 got people coming onto the podcast and 00:39:24.328 --> 00:39:25.989 they want to know in advance what's going 00:39:26.128 --> 00:39:27.369 on and yada yada yada 00:39:27.829 --> 00:39:29.290 And then the whole scheduling piece, 00:39:29.331 --> 00:39:30.951 like how is it that you and I 00:39:31.011 --> 00:39:31.451 ended up, 00:39:31.471 --> 00:39:33.192 because we're on different sides of the 00:39:33.273 --> 00:39:33.692 planet, 00:39:33.732 --> 00:39:36.214 how did we end up orchestrating our time 00:39:36.253 --> 00:39:37.875 so that you knew when a thing was 00:39:37.915 --> 00:39:39.315 happening and I knew when a thing was 00:39:39.335 --> 00:39:39.594 happening? 00:39:39.974 --> 00:39:41.636 And how did I even know that your 00:39:41.695 --> 00:39:43.297 time was available at the right time? 00:39:43.516 --> 00:39:44.177 So it's all of that. 00:39:44.197 --> 00:39:45.398 It's all of those bits and pieces in 00:39:45.418 --> 00:39:47.058 the background and we're calling it 00:39:47.119 --> 00:39:48.378 show.fm. 00:39:48.438 --> 00:39:50.279 So we managed to, by complete fluke, 00:39:50.299 --> 00:39:52.400 get the domain show.fm, 00:39:52.420 --> 00:39:53.520 which is a pretty short one. 00:39:53.641 --> 00:39:54.982 Yeah, it was just sitting there. 00:39:55.022 --> 00:39:57.603 That's great. 00:39:57.683 --> 00:39:59.503 I think it was definitely used and then 00:39:59.543 --> 00:40:01.424 somebody let go of it and we swooped 00:40:01.465 --> 00:40:02.005 in and got it. 00:40:02.665 --> 00:40:04.607 and the whole point is we're calling it 00:40:04.726 --> 00:40:06.949 pod ops so it's the the bits behind 00:40:07.049 --> 00:40:09.170 a podcast basically that you you would 00:40:09.230 --> 00:40:11.411 never know until after you'd started so 00:40:11.471 --> 00:40:13.893 it's things like finding guests so this 00:40:14.014 --> 00:40:16.916 guest network of podcasters who want 00:40:16.956 --> 00:40:19.259 guests well they can find them and the 00:40:19.279 --> 00:40:20.840 other way around guests who want to be 00:40:20.880 --> 00:40:23.822 on podcasts well they can find them um 00:40:23.942 --> 00:40:25.844 and then doing the scheduling so think 00:40:25.884 --> 00:40:27.186 something like calendly 00:40:27.846 --> 00:40:29.686 But the spin that we've got there is 00:40:29.746 --> 00:40:31.887 instead of it just creating a calendar 00:40:32.027 --> 00:40:32.527 thing, 00:40:32.648 --> 00:40:34.909 what we do is we create an episode 00:40:35.349 --> 00:40:36.670 inside of our platform. 00:40:36.690 --> 00:40:37.790 And then you can hop in, 00:40:37.929 --> 00:40:38.949 pop the guests in. 00:40:40.090 --> 00:40:41.632 You can do the recording, 00:40:41.712 --> 00:40:43.212 do all the editing and all of that 00:40:43.252 --> 00:40:44.132 kind of stuff in there. 00:40:44.152 --> 00:40:47.233 But we'll also run automation so that you 00:40:47.273 --> 00:40:49.154 can be forewarned that the episode's 00:40:49.194 --> 00:40:51.074 coming up and what the expectations are 00:40:51.114 --> 00:40:53.255 and when to be around and kind of 00:40:53.355 --> 00:40:55.277 what platform we're using and how to test 00:40:55.337 --> 00:40:55.436 it. 00:40:55.897 --> 00:40:57.078 And then we do show notes. 00:40:57.777 --> 00:40:59.679 automatic show notes if you want to so 00:40:59.719 --> 00:41:01.840 that you can communicate with me and write 00:41:01.860 --> 00:41:03.360 things down so that i can read them 00:41:03.400 --> 00:41:05.581 we can all be collaborating if you've got 00:41:05.601 --> 00:41:08.683 a podcasting team that's a thing um 00:41:08.882 --> 00:41:10.402 there's quite a lot of companies out there 00:41:10.422 --> 00:41:12.703 who do podcasting professionally you know 00:41:12.884 --> 00:41:14.804 like a television network does television 00:41:14.844 --> 00:41:16.186 programs professionally there's a whole 00:41:16.686 --> 00:41:18.587 undercurrent of really professional 00:41:18.648 --> 00:41:20.668 well-paid podcasters out there as well and 00:41:20.929 --> 00:41:22.690 so they have teams and it's got team 00:41:22.710 --> 00:41:24.612 management and everything basically what 00:41:24.632 --> 00:41:27.132 we've tried to do is pretty much 00:41:27.413 --> 00:41:30.355 everything that you need to to get a 00:41:30.395 --> 00:41:33.598 podcast out we've tried to tackle it and 00:41:33.938 --> 00:41:35.378 i know jack of all trades and all 00:41:35.398 --> 00:41:37.380 that but we think we've done a pretty 00:41:37.420 --> 00:41:38.081 credible job 00:41:39.822 --> 00:41:40.822 I don't know when this podcast will 00:41:40.842 --> 00:41:41.362 actually air, 00:41:41.382 --> 00:41:42.523 but we're recording it right at the 00:41:42.563 --> 00:41:43.563 beginning of September. 00:41:43.605 --> 00:41:46.485 It should be ready by mid-September or 00:41:46.525 --> 00:41:47.306 slightly earlier. 00:41:47.927 --> 00:41:49.969 And I'm pretty pleased with it. 00:41:50.108 --> 00:41:51.310 It's pretty amazing. 00:41:51.429 --> 00:41:53.931 I don't think there's anything like it. 00:41:53.971 --> 00:41:55.732 So if you're thinking of doing a podcast 00:41:56.973 --> 00:41:58.574 or you have a podcast already, 00:41:58.634 --> 00:42:00.074 we do the hosting as well. 00:42:00.255 --> 00:42:03.857 So it really is like this one app 00:42:05.319 --> 00:42:06.179 to rule them all, 00:42:06.259 --> 00:42:07.661 getting back to the Lord of the Rings. 00:42:09.541 --> 00:42:09.802 Sorry, 00:42:09.842 --> 00:42:11.985 I went on a real promotional moment there. 00:42:12.065 --> 00:42:14.047 I mean, I set it up for you. 00:42:14.708 --> 00:42:17.652 Well, thank you. 00:42:17.772 --> 00:42:19.674 I want to give my guests an opportunity 00:42:19.753 --> 00:42:21.596 to shill their stuff if they have stuff 00:42:21.616 --> 00:42:21.895 to shill. 00:42:21.915 --> 00:42:23.038 Well, I appreciate that. 00:42:23.357 --> 00:42:25.699 uh you know you've shown me uh some 00:42:25.739 --> 00:42:26.960 of the some of the stuff and i 00:42:27.000 --> 00:42:29.540 like there's a lot of inefficiencies in my 00:42:29.581 --> 00:42:32.262 own workflow that i i'm well aware of 00:42:32.703 --> 00:42:34.424 that like are just things that i deal 00:42:34.444 --> 00:42:36.585 with uh but like things that i see 00:42:36.704 --> 00:42:39.485 being addressed through through the app 00:42:39.505 --> 00:42:40.346 that you're building so 00:42:41.547 --> 00:42:43.308 um yeah so a description of that would 00:42:43.328 --> 00:42:46.069 be to eliminate nonsense would be you'd 00:42:46.128 --> 00:42:48.869 set up a booking link i'd you'd share 00:42:48.909 --> 00:42:51.150 it on you know wherever x or whatever 00:42:51.610 --> 00:42:54.770 people would come book on you'd agree they 00:42:54.790 --> 00:42:56.491 would get notified you could set a bunch 00:42:56.511 --> 00:42:58.732 of reminders it would suck in information 00:42:58.772 --> 00:43:01.212 about them it would run some ai research 00:43:01.253 --> 00:43:03.012 so that you've got some like icebreakers 00:43:03.052 --> 00:43:04.733 and questions figured out in advance 00:43:05.453 --> 00:43:06.895 You then do the recording. 00:43:07.014 --> 00:43:08.677 It will transcribe the recording. 00:43:08.737 --> 00:43:10.237 It will offer some sort of, you know, 00:43:10.257 --> 00:43:11.739 the transcription will then lead to 00:43:11.898 --> 00:43:14.040 possible titles and possible content that 00:43:14.241 --> 00:43:14.982 you might like to use, 00:43:15.002 --> 00:43:17.244 which you can then ultimately publish on 00:43:17.264 --> 00:43:17.983 the platform. 00:43:18.083 --> 00:43:19.886 You don't have to use our hosting if 00:43:19.925 --> 00:43:20.846 you don't want, but yeah, 00:43:20.866 --> 00:43:22.507 it's about kind of eliminating all of 00:43:22.527 --> 00:43:22.728 those. 00:43:23.007 --> 00:43:24.590 It's kind of death by a thousand paper 00:43:24.610 --> 00:43:24.869 cuts. 00:43:25.469 --> 00:43:29.012 Most podcasters get to about episode three 00:43:29.072 --> 00:43:30.273 and then they give up and there's got 00:43:30.293 --> 00:43:31.375 to be a reason for that. 00:43:31.554 --> 00:43:33.136 And the reason for that largely is they 00:43:33.157 --> 00:43:34.458 didn't anticipate all the, 00:43:35.099 --> 00:43:37.165 boring bits that they didn't want to have 00:43:37.206 --> 00:43:38.409 to get involved with. 00:43:38.529 --> 00:43:40.775 They just wanted to make a show and 00:43:40.815 --> 00:43:41.277 that was it. 00:43:41.831 --> 00:43:43.552 Yeah, well, I mean, for myself, 00:43:44.132 --> 00:43:46.634 for Binary Jazz and also for this one, 00:43:46.835 --> 00:43:48.536 I make it a point to try to 00:43:48.576 --> 00:43:51.378 do the least amount of extra effort as 00:43:51.438 --> 00:43:51.958 possible. 00:43:52.018 --> 00:43:53.860 Which means I do, like, 00:43:53.900 --> 00:43:55.462 I use AI a lot for, like, 00:43:55.541 --> 00:43:58.603 I toss the transcript of this into AI. 00:43:58.685 --> 00:43:59.384 I toss, like, 00:43:59.404 --> 00:44:01.127 a bunch of stuff in AI and have 00:44:01.226 --> 00:44:03.748 it, like, generate a summary and, like, 00:44:04.049 --> 00:44:05.829 what links I should share in the show 00:44:05.849 --> 00:44:06.911 notes and all that sort of stuff. 00:44:07.712 --> 00:44:09.373 And I have a skill that I've, like, 00:44:09.433 --> 00:44:10.393 I've trained it to do 00:44:10.753 --> 00:44:12.295 to do this thing every like when I 00:44:12.315 --> 00:44:14.159 give it a show that's what it's doing 00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:16.282 because I just don't want to do and 00:44:16.302 --> 00:44:17.844 so like the only thing that I'm doing 00:44:17.983 --> 00:44:19.846 is like tossing it into GarageBand putting 00:44:19.886 --> 00:44:21.107 the bumpers at either side 00:44:21.558 --> 00:44:23.958 yeah um you know uh putting it into 00:44:24.159 --> 00:44:26.181 imovie putting the bumpers on either side 00:44:26.221 --> 00:44:28.121 and then like just shipping it like i 00:44:28.302 --> 00:44:30.362 use like garageband and imovie aren't 00:44:30.402 --> 00:44:32.224 anything special but i use them because i 00:44:32.344 --> 00:44:34.945 don't want to spend more time on the 00:44:34.985 --> 00:44:36.726 thing right like yeah i want to spend 00:44:36.766 --> 00:44:38.949 like they're easy i can they're not 00:44:39.009 --> 00:44:40.810 perfect but they they do the job and 00:44:40.829 --> 00:44:42.351 that's that the only thing that i care 00:44:42.371 --> 00:44:44.552 about is just like having a thing that 00:44:44.592 --> 00:44:45.913 i can then upload somewhere 00:44:47.253 --> 00:44:48.735 So everything you described, 00:44:48.855 --> 00:44:49.956 except the iMovie bit, 00:44:49.976 --> 00:44:51.058 because when we're launching, 00:44:51.118 --> 00:44:52.219 we're not going to tackle video. 00:44:52.239 --> 00:44:53.340 We're just going to do audio at the 00:44:53.360 --> 00:44:55.061 start because we've got to start 00:44:55.081 --> 00:44:55.442 somewhere. 00:44:56.022 --> 00:44:57.884 Everything you've just described, it does. 00:44:59.384 --> 00:45:00.907 And you would have to do very little. 00:45:01.688 --> 00:45:03.308 As with all complicated platforms, 00:45:03.328 --> 00:45:04.730 there's a bit of configuration. 00:45:04.750 --> 00:45:06.592 The first few times that you're in it, 00:45:06.632 --> 00:45:08.594 you maybe give it half an hour and 00:45:08.614 --> 00:45:09.375 figure everything out. 00:45:09.875 --> 00:45:11.054 But once you've got it figured out, 00:45:11.114 --> 00:45:13.136 it will do all those things and pretty 00:45:13.175 --> 00:45:14.855 much put everything on autopilot. 00:45:15.116 --> 00:45:17.536 There's like a Zapier style thing built 00:45:17.636 --> 00:45:20.157 in, but the triggers are all, well, 00:45:20.217 --> 00:45:20.797 not all. 00:45:21.016 --> 00:45:21.616 So for example, 00:45:21.636 --> 00:45:22.996 you can trigger webhooks so it does 00:45:23.056 --> 00:45:24.018 external things, 00:45:24.438 --> 00:45:25.918 but you can trigger all the things in 00:45:25.938 --> 00:45:26.297 the app. 00:45:26.317 --> 00:45:28.297 So I don't know if a podcast episode 00:45:28.317 --> 00:45:30.078 has been published, do a thing. 00:45:30.119 --> 00:45:31.918 Could be send emails out or whatever. 00:45:32.339 --> 00:45:33.819 Or if a podcast episode has been 00:45:33.878 --> 00:45:36.400 scheduled, do a thing like notify me, 00:45:36.480 --> 00:45:38.239 notify the guest, yada, yada, yada. 00:45:39.561 --> 00:45:40.860 And so it does pretty much everything that 00:45:40.880 --> 00:45:41.621 you've just mentioned. 00:45:41.681 --> 00:45:44.103 So it's signed on the dotted line. 00:45:44.424 --> 00:45:46.904 It sounds too good to be true, Nathan. 00:45:46.944 --> 00:45:50.206 So I will reserve judgment until I have 00:45:50.226 --> 00:45:50.907 it in my hands, 00:45:50.967 --> 00:45:53.529 but it definitely sounds like it would 00:45:53.569 --> 00:45:54.869 solve some of my, 00:45:54.949 --> 00:45:56.290 if not all of my problems. 00:45:57.090 --> 00:45:59.052 I hesitate to say it would answer all 00:45:59.092 --> 00:46:01.232 of my problems because I can't believe 00:46:01.253 --> 00:46:02.714 there's a single thing where I answer all 00:46:02.753 --> 00:46:03.435 of my problems. 00:46:03.454 --> 00:46:05.496 No, no, no, no, no. 00:46:05.755 --> 00:46:06.556 Now, there's bound to be. 00:46:06.835 --> 00:46:08.657 So what we're looking for, really, 00:46:08.697 --> 00:46:09.476 because we're launching it, 00:46:09.516 --> 00:46:11.938 we're looking for roughly a hundred people 00:46:11.978 --> 00:46:13.739 who are willing to give it a go. 00:46:14.498 --> 00:46:16.400 And we've got this what we're calling 00:46:16.440 --> 00:46:17.480 founders pricing. 00:46:17.520 --> 00:46:18.960 So it's significantly reduced. 00:46:18.980 --> 00:46:20.701 We're basically giving it away for just 00:46:20.820 --> 00:46:22.982 over ten dollars a month for three years. 00:46:23.782 --> 00:46:25.924 so it equates to three hundred and ninety 00:46:25.964 --> 00:46:27.844 nine dollars for thirty six months so a 00:46:27.884 --> 00:46:29.346 little bit over ten dollars which is a 00:46:29.386 --> 00:46:31.668 lot less than we will be charging so 00:46:31.688 --> 00:46:33.889 if that interests you if you head to 00:46:33.949 --> 00:46:35.991 show.fm you can have a poke around and 00:46:36.210 --> 00:46:39.273 see what you think yeah well uh thank 00:46:39.313 --> 00:46:41.775 you for coming on nathan uh if anybody 00:46:41.875 --> 00:46:44.397 was uh wanting to find you on the 00:46:44.476 --> 00:46:47.799 internet besides show.fm uh where might 00:46:47.839 --> 00:46:48.940 they find you on the internet 00:46:49.509 --> 00:46:49.690 Yeah, 00:46:49.730 --> 00:46:51.931 probably the best thing is social networks 00:46:52.092 --> 00:46:53.574 are probably the easiest, 00:46:53.594 --> 00:46:54.174 I would have thought. 00:46:54.373 --> 00:46:57.157 And that would be X would be at 00:46:57.576 --> 00:46:59.938 WPBuilds without any hyphens or anything 00:46:59.958 --> 00:47:00.239 like that. 00:47:00.279 --> 00:47:03.041 And then WPBuilds.com is the website. 00:47:03.422 --> 00:47:05.063 Probably that's the best second thing. 00:47:06.130 --> 00:47:08.471 And then also your WP Tavern jukebox 00:47:08.491 --> 00:47:08.853 podcast. 00:47:09.413 --> 00:47:10.232 Yeah, that's right. 00:47:10.253 --> 00:47:11.994 So yeah, wptavern.com. 00:47:12.074 --> 00:47:12.594 At the moment, 00:47:12.994 --> 00:47:15.056 the whole of that website is a podcast. 00:47:15.315 --> 00:47:18.038 So, but like I said earlier, 00:47:18.058 --> 00:47:18.598 fingers crossed, 00:47:18.618 --> 00:47:20.078 maybe the writing will come back to that 00:47:20.099 --> 00:47:21.038 at some point in the future. 00:47:21.078 --> 00:47:22.259 But yeah. 00:47:22.540 --> 00:47:23.920 Well, thanks again, Nathan. 00:47:23.940 --> 00:47:24.340 Thank you, 00:47:24.400 --> 00:47:25.581 everyone who might be watching or 00:47:25.601 --> 00:47:26.663 listening to this in the future. 00:47:26.922 --> 00:47:29.904 And yeah, we'll see you on the internet. 00:47:29.924 --> 00:47:30.284 Take it easy. 00:47:30.304 --> 00:47:30.965 Bye-bye.